GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: CarsonRatSniper on November 03, 2014, 02:32:31 PM
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The breeches should be finished by next week...then we start on the little custom parts.
I will update pics as we progress..
:)
Mike
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141103_094955776.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141103_094955776.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141103_094844931.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141103_094844931.jpg.html)
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Very cool. Looking forward to more pics. ;)
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Yes! So excited!
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I will enjoy seeing the progress.
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Yep. This one's on "Notify"
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Very nice. Keep up the good work can't wait to see the finished product.
Dave
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Hi Mike!!! Nice start with your project... Wish i have your tool and skills... LOL Will you put them for sale when done with the project???? I would be interested in buying one..
Thanks 8)
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Not my skills...its all Jim Stanton of Accu-Fab!
I'm the idea/assembly guy :)
Yes, they will be listed for sale - we will be doing larger and larger runs as we get guns sold...I already have an importer lined up for Canada ;)
Thanks!
Mike
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LOOKS LIKE A INTERESTING PROJECT.
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Great project.
If this gun comes out at 50+ FPE in .25 I might have to get me one :)
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looking good very interested in the project. Any plans to do some you tube vids on the project?
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this is great. Can't wait to see the progress
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Jim & myself will be doing *everything* we can to get as much exposure and performance information out there as we can.
YouTube vids are on the list - its a matter of getting video and uploading them once we've got guns built.
I will be posting more breech progress pics this Thursday.
Manny - The gun will indeed exceed 50 ft lbs in .25 - not sure about shot count at that point but I think Bob got *well* into 50 ft lbs when tuning for power.
With the 45cc reservoir I will have to see about shot count without pumping...we're adding 20cc's to the guns volume vs Bobs Millenium...I'd be really happy with two 50 ft lb shots with a lower powered 3rd follow up shot.
The great thing is since Bob built and thoroughly documented his guns performance we aren't just going at this blind - we have specific benchmarks that shouldn't be an issue hitting.
:)
Mike
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Jim & myself will be doing *everything* we can to get as much exposure and performance information out there as we can.
YouTube vids are on the list - its a matter of getting video and uploading them once we've got guns built.
I will be posting more breech progress pics this Thursday.
Manny - The gun will indeed exceed 50 ft lbs in .25 - not sure about shot count at that point but I think Bob got *well* into 50 ft lbs when tuning for power.
With the 45cc reservoir I will have to see about shot count without pumping...we're adding 20cc's to the guns volume vs Bobs Millenium...I'd be really happy with two 50 ft lb shots with a lower powered 3rd follow up shot.
The great thing is since Bob built and thoroughly documented his guns performance we aren't just going at this blind - we have specific benchmarks that shouldn't be an issue hitting.
:)
Mike
This was probably mentioned in the other thread, but could one tune it to get, say, 5 shots at 35 fpe or so?
I realize it's all guessing right now, but just a thought.
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With a 25cc reservoir Bob got 3 shots @ 40 ft lbs...5 shots @ 40 ft lbs *should* be no problem, but we will have to see what the guns do when built.
Mike
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With a 25cc reservoir Bob got 3 shots @ 40 ft lbs...5 shots @ 40 ft lbs *should* be no problem, but we will have to see what the guns do when built.
Mike
That sounds promising. I'd buy a 5 shot; 35fpe MSP in a heartbeat.
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5 shots at 35 FPE shouldn't be a problem with the larger reservoir.... maybe 5 at 40 FPE.... My gun got 51 FPE at 1800 psi, one shot and a backup, but the new gun will have a 45 cc reservoir instead of 28 cc.... The highest FPE I recorded was 69.3 with 42.4 gr. EunJin Points at 1800 psi with the RVA at coil bind.... LOUD and an AIR HOG !!! (1 shot, no usable backup).... so the valve is capable of moving lots of air !!!
Bob
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How many pumps to bring the pressure back up on that setting? What about a 15 ft/lb .22?
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With a 25cc reservoir Bob got 3 shots @ 40 ft lbs...5 shots @ 40 ft lbs *should* be no problem, but we will have to see what the guns do when built.
Mike
That sounds promising. I'd buy a 5 shot; 35fpe MSP in a heartbeat.
I would too if I was 18 and had some money.
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How many pumps to bring the pressure back up on that setting? What about a 15 ft/lb .22?
I'll be testing and tuning .22, .25 & .30 calibers.
Mike
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Like any other PCP, if you reduce the hammer strike to decrease the power, eventually you won't be able to fill to 1800 psi while using the full size ports.... However, if you used a stock Disco valve, then you could tune the gun to shoot like a stock Disco starting from 1800 psi down to about 1000.... ie about 20 FPE in .22 cal.... The reservoir is about 1/3 the size of a Disco, so you would be looking at about 1/3 the number of shots (ie about 10, depending on the ES you are happy with).... Other tunes are possible, both in between stock Disco power and a 3 shot "power" tune, but you might have to use a transfer port in between stock and the one Mike is using.... Lower powered tunes (eg. 12 - 15 FPE) are also possible, but just like with a Disco, a smaller transfer port will be required....
Don't think of this gun as an MSP.... Think about it as a PCP with an onboard pump.... that requires tuning like a PCP....
Bob
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Don't think of this gun as an MSP.... Think about it as a PCP with an onboard pump.... that requires tuning like a PCP....
That description is exactly why it has so much appeal to me.
I think choosing a caliber is going to be the hard part.
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to me its easy... sign me up for a .22!!! what we have been waiting for is the evolution of the pumper... and its here!
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to me its easy... sign me up for a .22!!! what we have been waiting for is the evolution of the pumper... and its here!
I'm leaning .22 right now as well for the velocity and shot count as well as pellet availability.
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For me it's .25 caliber due to my slugs and barrel.
Pellets from 25gr to 43gr and Spitzer slugs from 26gr (new - not yet released) up to 45gr.
The .30 is just bad arse, but the 45gr Spitzer puts the .25 right there with it.
That's the whole reason I chose to specialize in the quarterbore caliber - it has the widest range of applications.
:)
Mike
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I will be on the sidelines watching the magic happen...
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Quarterbore for me, but that .30 cal is calling my name.... *LOL*....
Bob
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;D I guess I could use another .25 cal PCP and having it be unique all the better
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For me the Millennium Pumper will be a hunting rifle.
In-the-field, how many shots does a hunter need when taking a varmint/pest or small-game.
At best, one well-placed initial shot.
Hopefully, a follow-up shot won't be needed.
But, a quick full-power follow-up shot is nice to have on-hand.
And, at worst, a third-shot ...coup de grâce.
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You know guys, the best thing is to just order one with all 3 barrels - then you can switch calibers to suit your mood (or quarry) that day!
;D
Mike
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Will it fit a Mrod or Prod?
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You know guys, the best thing is to just order one with all 3 barrels - then you can switch calibers to suit your mood (or quarry) that day!
;D
Mike
What a cost savings that would be ;)
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If (when) I have the funds for this, .25 for me all the way! I want 3 shots at 45 fpe.
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You know guys, the best thing is to just order one with all 3 barrels - then you can switch calibers to suit your mood (or quarry) that day!
;D
Mike
How would you adjust the power to get the most performance?
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The RVA will allow you to tune the gun within a reasonable range of adjustment.... Each caliber will come with it's own transfer port, sized to suit what is appropriate for the potential.... It is possible a different hammer spring will be required as well, Mike and I will sort that out....
Bob
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With a 25cc reservoir Bob got 3 shots @ 40 ft lbs...5 shots @ 40 ft lbs *should* be no problem, but we will have to see what the guns do when built.
Mike
That sounds promising. I'd buy a 5 shot; 35fpe MSP in a heartbeat.
I would too if I was 18 and had some money.
What are you saying?
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I love watching ideas become real.
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The Challenger RVA will be bored out to accept a 2" long x .360" OD hammer spring. We will have a threaded plug so you can swap springs by removing the plug/tension adjuster.
To go to a lighter spring (factory Disco type) I will have another plug that has an extension to reduce the .365" ID of the RVA so the smaller diameter Disco spring will fit well.
I believe this makes the most sense for an 'on the fly' caliber change.
The first 2 guns we build are going to be 'Millennium Master Hunter' sets with all 3 caliber barrel/bolt/magazine/transfer ports...they will be offered for sale as soon as we gather data and take some pictures.
They may have our Supreme 1.5" OD x 6" long LDC that has an interchangeable monocore to match the appropriate caliber.
Obviously these sets aren't going to be inexpensive but we will be numbering our guns with sequential serial numbers...you just never know! *Grin*
The money is going right back into buying more raw materials for (hopefully) 4 guns...sell those...then build 8 guns...you get the idea.
This is a startup so Jim & I need to sell some guns straight away to build up some capital to reinvest.
Your hard earned dollars would be much appreciated by purchasing a gun if you are able to.
;)
Mike
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One thing I would like to add about the .25 caliber...
I will have my tooling in about a week for a ~26 grain Spitzer...it is my Wicked Monster Hollowpoint.
It is an *extreme* expansion low ricochet round.
It will have the same exterior dimensions as my 37gr...I'm making my own pure lead jackets, adding a polymer ball inside the jacket and forming the Spitzer nose around it.
You'll be able to see the green ball inside through the HP nose cavity = Certified Zombie rounds! LOL
It should allow 900+ fps on a *mild* tune but will outperform Kings in the BC department...not to mention they'll just about turn inside out when they penetrate!
I will add pics and performance data in my Vendor Gate as soon as some are made up.
Mike
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With a 25cc reservoir Bob got 3 shots @ 40 ft lbs...5 shots @ 40 ft lbs *should* be no problem, but we will have to see what the guns do when built.
Mike
That sounds promising. I'd buy a 5 shot; 35fpe MSP in a heartbeat.
I would too if I was 18 and had some money.
What are you saying?
My Parents will not let me get another air rifle till I am 18 (I am 16 now). And I need to get a job to earn some money.
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My Parents will not let me get another air rifle till I am 18 (I am 16 now). And I need to get a job to earn some money.
Have you considered some career counseling ... on how to best fund an airgun addiction?
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My Parents will not let me get another air rifle till I am 18 (I am 16 now). And I need to get a job to earn some money.
Have you considered some career counseling ... on how to best fund and airgun addiction?
LOL ;D ;D No I have not.
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The first 2 guns we build are going to be 'Millennium Master Hunter' sets with all 3 caliber barrel/bolt/magazine/transfer ports...they
will be offered for sale as soon as we gather data and take some pictures.
They may have our Supreme 1.5" OD x 6" long LDC that has an interchangeable monocore to match the appropriate caliber.
Obviously these sets aren't going to be inexpensive but we will be numbering our guns with sequential serial numbers...you just never know! *Grin*
Your hard earned dollars would be much appreciated by purchasing a gun if you are able to.
Mike, not to tell you your business ... it might be a good-idea to line-up some serious buyers before you build a complete set.
As I've learned over the years ... gun/air gun buyers can be a funny lot when it comes to cost.
If a certain price threshold is exceeded ... they won't buy.
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With a 25cc reservoir Bob got 3 shots @ 40 ft lbs...5 shots @ 40 ft lbs *should* be no problem, but we will have to see what the guns do when built.
Mike
That sounds promising. I'd buy a 5 shot; 35fpe MSP in a heartbeat.
I would too if I was 18 and had some money.
What are you saying?
I just looked at your profile and saw you were 18. Where you thinking that I meant you were a rich kid who could get anything you want? ;D Cause that is not what I meant. ;)
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The first 2 guns we build are going to be 'Millennium Master Hunter' sets with all 3 caliber barrel/bolt/magazine/transfer ports...they
will be offered for sale as soon as we gather data and take some pictures.
They may have our Supreme 1.5" OD x 6" long LDC that has an interchangeable monocore to match the appropriate caliber.
Obviously these sets aren't going to be inexpensive but we will be numbering our guns with sequential serial numbers...you just never know! *Grin*
Your hard earned dollars would be much appreciated by purchasing a gun if you are able to.
Mike, not to tell you your business ... it might be a good-idea to line-up some serious buyers before you build a complete set.
As I've learned over the years ... gun/air gun buyers can be a funny lot when it comes to cost.
If a certain price threshold is exceeded ... they won't buy.
Kickstarter might be an idea to get this to a wider audience and get confirmed buyers, as well as funding from non buyers.
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The Challenger RVA will be bored out to accept a 2" long x .360" OD hammer spring.
We will have a threaded plug so you can swap springs by removing the plug/tension adjuster.
I believe this makes the most sense for an 'on the fly' caliber change.
So, I am to conclude for a .177 application ... an OEM Disco spring can be used for a reduced hammer-strike.
Hmmm, wonder of Crosman produces a 12fpe Disco for the UK market?
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With a 25cc reservoir Bob got 3 shots @ 40 ft lbs...5 shots @ 40 ft lbs *should* be no problem, but we will have to see what the guns do when built.
Mike
That sounds promising. I'd buy a 5 shot; 35fpe MSP in a heartbeat.
I would too if I was 18 and had some money.
What are you saying?
I just looked at your profile and saw you were 18. Where you thinking that I meant you were a rich kid who could get anything you want? ;D Cause that is not what I meant. ;)
I did think that is what you meant. I had just gotten done with my work day (16 hours) and I was going to tear your head off!
It's nice being young. Enjoy it!
The Challenger RVA will be bored out to accept a 2" long x .360" OD hammer spring.
We will have a threaded plug so you can swap springs by removing the plug/tension adjuster.
I believe this makes the most sense for an 'on the fly' caliber change.
So, I am to conclude for a .177 application ... an OEM Disco spring can be used for a reduced hammer-strike.
Hmmm, wonder of Crosman produces a 12fpe Disco for the UK market?
There is no 12 fpe Disco. But I believe a Challenger transfer port can be modded to make a 12 fpe Disco
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I've already purchased all the parts for the first 2 guns with the exception of paying Norm for the stocks.
All I meant is after we have guns built it would be nice to not have to sit on them so we can go right into making more.
It looks like # 1 & 2 Master Hunter sets are already sold anyway, so we're off to a good start!
It will take a bit of time but we would like to produce 10 or 20 guns a month down the road...
Mike
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There is no 12 fpe Disco.
But I believe a Challenger transfer port can be modded to make a 12 fpe Disco
I did a little searching for a UK spec Disco.
Here's what I found.
Crosman Benjamin Discovery Rifle (http://www.gunmart.net/gun_review/crosman_benjamin_discovery)
Energy 10.4ftlbs with FX (JSB) pellets
Welcome to Solware.co.uk - Your One Stop Gun Shop Run By Shooters, for Shooters!!!!! (http://www.solware.co.uk/)
.177 Benjamin Discovery Rifle (http://www.solware.co.uk/air-pistol-air-rifle/177-benjamin-discovery-pre-charged-rifle.shtml)PLEASE NOTE THIS RIFLE IS APPROX 10 FT/LBS MAX POWER
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If your really set and serious about a .177 I can build you one using a choked Lothar Walther barrel and tune it to 12 ft lbs.
I will PM you when we get to that point...these first 2 guns will have .22, .25 & .30 caliber barrels for each gun and be sold as a complete set - that's what the difference between a Millennium Master Hunter and the standard Millennium will be. The Master Hunter will have all 3 calibers.
Mike
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If your really set and serious about a .177 I can build you one using a choked Lothar Walther barrel and tune it to 12 ft lbs.
Thanks Mike, however .25 caliber will be my primary choice in a Millennium Pumper.
As I do have a need for a hunting .25 pumper.
And, depending on how much I like the Millennium Pumper in .25 ... I'll, most likely, will be considering
a .177 or .20 caliber mate for purposes that don't require as much FPE.
However, I think there are some fella's (such as myself) that are looking for a premium pumper.
I think this would be the market Webley would have been exploiting with it's Paradigm single-stroke pneumatic (http://www.solware.co.uk/air-pistol-air-rifle/webley-paradigm.shtml).
But-in .177 or .20 caliber for general-purpose use - not necessarily a full-bore small-game varmint/pest hunter.
In a smaller-bore, the air reservoir of the Millennium Pumper would allow for more full-power shots.
In my case, five full-power shots would be good-enough - the more, the better.
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I can always fit a different caliber barrel to the breech down the road - it *will* require folks to send me their breech for fitting to avoid any clocking issues with the transfer port lining up when the barrel is threaded in.
Each barrel is threaded into the breech THEN we are milling the transfer port into the barrel to ensure perfect alignment.
Lots of options with this platform...I want it to be the most versatile air rifle available!
;)
Mike
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There is no 12 fpe Disco.
But I believe a Challenger transfer port can be modded to make a 12 fpe Disco
I did a little searching for a UK spec Disco.
Here's what I found.
Crosman Benjamin Discovery Rifle (http://www.gunmart.net/gun_review/crosman_benjamin_discovery)
Energy 10.4ftlbs with FX (JSB) pellets
Welcome to Solware.co.uk - Your One Stop Gun Shop Run By Shooters, for Shooters!!!!! (http://www.solware.co.uk/)
.177 Benjamin Discovery Rifle (http://www.solware.co.uk/air-pistol-air-rifle/177-benjamin-discovery-pre-charged-rifle.shtml)PLEASE NOTE THIS RIFLE IS APPROX 10 FT/LBS MAX POWER
Well, I'll be darned. I stand corrected.
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It looks like # 1 & 2 Master Hunter sets are already sold anyway, so we're off to a good start!
Awesome! I will say I'm feelin jealousy but I'm not feeling surprised.
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They're spoken for but not paid for yet...I know #1 will come through (you know who you are LOL).
Regardless of serial #, these will be simply awesome rifles!
;D
Mike
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If you want to make it real user friendly have the transfer port in the breech and not in the barrel. That way you just have to unscrew the barrel for a change.
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With a 25cc reservoir Bob got 3 shots @ 40 ft lbs...5 shots @ 40 ft lbs *should* be no problem, but we will have to see what the guns do when built.
Mike
That sounds promising. I'd buy a 5 shot; 35fpe MSP in a heartbeat.
I would too if I was 18 and had some money.
What are you saying?
I just looked at your profile and saw you were 18. Where you thinking that I meant you were a rich kid who could get anything you want? ;D Cause that is not what I meant. ;)
I did think that is what you meant. I had just gotten done with my work day (16 hours) and I was going to tear your head off!
It's nice being young. Enjoy it!
LOL! I will enjoy it... Until I see a really cool gun and then be like :(
Oh no I am going of topic. Hey Mike your pumper sounds cool, I am looking forward to see the Finished product. ;D
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I can always fit a different caliber barrel to the breech down the road - it *will* require folks to send me their breech for fitting
to avoid any clocking issues with the transfer port lining up when the barrel is threaded in.
Each barrel is threaded into the breech THEN we are milling the transfer port into the barrel to ensure perfect alignment.
Lots of options with this platform...I want it to be the most versatile air rifle available!
Female threads on aluminum receiver ... male threads on steel barrel.
Considering, barrel timing/indexing is an important factor.
What provisions have been made to compensate for potential thread wear on the receiver
from frequent barrel changes?
Might I suggest the switch barrel receivers be made of steel.
Or, a steel threaded-insert (heli-coil (http://www.helithreadinserts.com/products/default.html)) be installed in the softer aluminum receiver to resist thread wear.
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Looks good Mike, talk is cheap and it is nice to see a custom gun that is purchasable actually coming to fruition ;). Cheers
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Nicely done, post more pictures!
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They're spoken for but not paid for yet...I know #1 will come through (you know who you are LOL).
Regardless of serial #, these will be simply awesome rifles!
;D
Mike
Hey Mike!! Can you send me an E-mail on the first 2 rifles??? I might have found some funds hidden for a long time in case of EMERGENCY.... LOL
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Doug - I wanted to o ring the barrels at the transfer port to do just that but the variation in port size from .22 to .30 cal is too drastic - the Delrin transfer ports will be a standardized length though with the appropriate port size for caliber...that way the port coming off the valve face is the correct size so we don't end up with a larger chamber than the port hole in the barrel and lose pressure.
The barrels will index off of the face of the breech...no worries about thread wear.
I have PICS!!! I'm getting them uploaded now...
Mike
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(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141106_100358445.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141106_100358445.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141106_101006394.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141106_101006394.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141106_171219435.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141106_171219435.jpg.html)
Here's one next to my standard Picatinney 22xx/Discovery breech
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141106_125656778.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141106_125656778.jpg.html)
I hope you guys like these so far...still have a way to go but they're 'roughed in'.
Mike
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Very nice!Thanks for the pics looking forward to more 8)
I count ten breeches there ;) ;D
I'm very excited to see how these turn out!
Joseph
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Now there's some eye candy. They say a watched pot doesn't boil but I'm watching this thing like a hawk.
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Yep...there's 10 ;)
I have 6 barrels - but I can't afford 10 stocks right now. I may just build 10 guns and have 2 stocked...we'll see how it goes.
Mike
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You still have transfer port but the barrel screws on and stops before it. Transfer port is in the breech.
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I hope you guys like these so far.
Oooooo..
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I hope you guys like these so far.
Oooooo..
Ahhhhhh...
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Now there's some eye candy. They say a watched pot doesn't boil but I'm watching this thing like a hawk.
Same here. Thanks for posting the progress pics.
Oooooo..
Ahhhhhh...
LOL
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Ok Mike I have a question:
Is moisture a real problem with pumpers?
If so...
Is there any way to add a small moisture filter to the gun?
Would you have to tear it down every so often to
get the moisture out?
How hard would a complete tear down be?
Thanks for any help.
Joseph
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Moisture doesn't seem to be a significant issue with pump and dump MSPs.... possibly because the only reservoir they really have is inside the valve.... I have heard some reports of moisture problems with the FX Independence, one of which was related to the use of a piece of cheap, plated threaded rod for the piston rod which flaked and rusted (and that isn't inside the reservoir).... but that is complete heresay.... I don't think there should be any more problem with the Millennium Pumper than with a Disco which is filled with the stock Stirrup Pump.... The best way to prevent moisture buildup in any PCP is to fill from a tank as the air actually dries (ends up with a lower relative humidity) as it expands into the gun.... Any moisture ends up collecting in the tank instead of the gun....
Bob
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Ok Mike I have a question:
Is moisture a real problem with pumpers?
Joseph
Yeah what farmerjoe said, is moisture going to be a problem when pumping this gun?
The best way to prevent moisture buildup in any PCP is to fill from a tank as the air actually dries (ends up with a lower relative humidity) as it expands into the gun.... Any moisture ends up collecting in the tank instead of the gun....
Bob
What if we dont plan on getting a tank for the gun?
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I repeat....
I don't think there should be any more problem with the Millennium Pumper than with a Disco which is filled with the stock Stirrup Pump....
Pumping is pumping.... refilling from 1000 to 1800 would feed the same amount of moisture to either gun, and the stock Disco pump has no moisture trap....
Bob
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Here is another discussion on the topic it starts towards the bottom of page 1
and goes on to page 2:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=77568.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=77568.0)
Joseph
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Of course just remembered this thread....after I just bought a new rifle!!!!
Would be cool to have one rifle to do it all.
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I want one in .22
5 shots at 33 fpe (18.1 gr @ 900) would be perfect for me. Assuming you don't have to pump more than 50ish times to "refill"
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I would think your shot/FPE combination is within the realms of possibility with the larger reservoir.... The .25 cal took 40 pumps for 3 shots of 40 FPE (total of 120 FPE), so that should be roughly 55 pumps to replace (5 x 33) = 165 FPE.... just an estimate of course....
Bob
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Hmmm, the pennies will have to be saved!
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So,....what FPE would be possible in .25 if you had 2 shots ?
Me, I would be looking for maximum FPE with one shot as a back up.
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Manny - It will be over 50 ft lbs...hopefully Bob will be able to figure the math with the larger reservoir.
Bob is helping with the tuning advice on the guns...Jim & myself are doing all the manufacturing and assembly.
Once I get one to him in .25 & .30 caliber his assistance in tuning and data graphing will be *VERY* helpful!
I'm off to work on my buddies roof again today before my 'day' job...then I'm off all next week working with Jim on the guns and cranking out slugs.
The *joy* of being a former roofing contractor! :P
Mike
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;) Roofing contractor , did it part time with a family friend when I was in my 20's for a summer . That is definitely a young mans work !!! ::) :P :P
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Manny, if you look back at the first page of this thread there is a graph showing the three ways I could tune my Millennium Pumper with just a change of preload on the hammer spring.... http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=76600.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=76600.0)
That was with a 28 cc reservoir, the version Mike is producing will have an additional reservoir with a total of 45 cc.... so should have an extra shot, more FPE, or more velocity on the backup shot.... I got 1 shot at 51 FPE, 2 at 45+ FPE, or 3 shots at 40 FPE, with a backup....
Bob
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Super sweet.. I'll be following this thread and my bank account, lol..
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Given the power being put out by this gun, is it a fair assessment that it would be largely relegated to heavy-weight pellets if ordered in .22-cal?
I'd imagine it would be more difficult to tune it to shoot anything under 15 gr accurately, given that it would probably be sending them close to supersonic with that kind of power. No grabbing a cheap tin of 14.3 gr CPHP's at Walmart if that were the case.
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Just undo the rear RVA cap plug and install a Disco spring - it will be as tuneable in .22 as a factory .22 Disco.
Mike
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Really? Wow, that would be nice, actually.
Would it give more shots per fill with that setup (20-25 fpe in .22-cal)?
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You can tune it for less power by backing off the RVA and/or replacing the hammer spring.... Eventually, you will find that you can't pump to 1800 any more or the initial velocity of the string will be too low.... You can then pump to a lower pressure (easier pumping, a good thing).... OR you can fit a smaller transfer port to reduce the power but allow the full 1800 psi fill.... It will be like any other PCP to tune.... Each caliber will come with the appropriate sized transfer port....
In .22 cal, think of it as a Disco with 1/3rd of the reservoir volume, and hence 1/3 of the shot count.... Pretty much anything you can do power-wise with a Disco (at 1800 psi, but with larger ports) you can do with the Millennium Pumper.... just not as many times....
Bob
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Manny, if you look back at the first page of this thread there is a graph showing the three ways I could tune my Millennium Pumper with just a change of preload on the hammer spring.... http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=76600.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=76600.0)
That was with a 28 cc reservoir, the version Mike is producing will have an additional reservoir with a total of 45 cc.... so should have an extra shot, more FPE, or more velocity on the backup shot.... I got 1 shot at 51 FPE, 2 at 45+ FPE, or 3 shots at 40 FPE, with a backup....
Bob
If the gun can shoot the Baracuda 31gr at 900 fps for 2 shots count me in for one for sure, 100 %
hypothetical ....( know Bob loves to play with numbers :) )
With those specs, how many pumps after one shot to be back at full charge ?
Thanks
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That's a tall order, but not impossible (900 fps with 31 gr. = 56 FPE).... I did manage a single shot of 868 fps with 42 gr. EunJins = 69.3 FPE (loud and an air hog) with the 28cc reservoir.... I never tried 31 gr. Baracudas, but they should have slightly more FPE than the 25 gr. Kings, and they peaked at 53 FPE, 2 shots at 45+ FPE....
The problem is, like any PCP, as you try and get the last little bit of power, the air consumption goes through the roof.... With a 3 shot at 40 FPE tune, on the 28cc reservoir, I lost 900 psi total (first shot only 280 psi).... Tuned for 2 shots of 45+ FPE, the pressure dropped 730 psi (first shot about 350 psi).... Set for a single shot of 51 FPE, the gun used 500 psi.... Each pump replaced about 25 psi, so that is 11 pumps, 14 pumps, and 20 pumps for the first shot at those power levels....
The new version will have a larger reservoir, which should mean slightly more peak power (but even more air used) if you crank it WFO.... Tuned for the previous power levels, it should mean slightly more efficiency, and more shots (ie MAYBE 5 shots at about 40 FPE instead of 3, 3 shots at 45 FPE instead of 2).... but of course 60% more pumping if you take all the shots because the reservoir is 60% larger.... The bottom line is, you'll just have to wait until Mike builds it and tests it.... If you do manage 2 shots at 56 FPE I would think it would take a lot of pumping to get back to 1800 psi....
If you're talking one shot with Baracudas at 56 FPE and a good solid backup (over 800 fps) I'll stick my neck out and say no problem.... and I'll estimate about 20-25 pumps after the first shot to get back to 1800 psi....
Bob
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This thing sounds more awesome by the minute!
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Tuned for the previous power levels, it should mean slightly more efficiency, and more shots (ie MAYBE 5 shots at about 40 FPE instead of 3,....
3-shots at 40 FPE would ... realistically ... work for me.
Or, to have 2-shots at near 50 FPE available-on-demand ... would be darn-near perfect.
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The second shot at 50 FPE with Kings.... or even worse at 56 FPE with Baracudas.... may be stretching it.... You may have to accept a slightly lower velocity backup.... or drop the velocity of the first shot just slightly to get two equal shots with a backup.... That's the nice thing, you can choose what suits you best and dial it up with the RVA, within the limits of the platform.... Again, look at this graph of what my original did with a 28cc reservoir....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Millenium%20Pumper/MilleniumPumper1800Strings.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Millenium%20Pumper/MilleniumPumper1800Strings.jpg.html)
Then remember that the new version will have a 45cc reservoir (60% larger)....
Bob
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I guess that would do too, at the short ranges I operate 100 fps difference don't really make that much difference on POI.
900 fps with the Baracuda 31gr on the 1st shot and 800 fps for the 2nd would do.
25 pumps to get back to full power is very good too.
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Might only be 50 fps less on the second shot, Manny.... or two shots at 875 instead of 900.... You'll have to wait until Mike builds and tests it.... at this point it's only an educated guess.... I would PM Mike and ask him to specifically test a setup like that for you and then you will know.... Personally I would be the most interested in what is the most power you can get for two shots of equal velocity, as then you won't be wasting a lot of air on the first shot.... This applies to any pellet and caliber.... As soon as you start tuning for the first shot the fastest, you are never sure how much air you are wasting to get that last few fps on the first shot.... and it can be a lot....
Bob
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what's the full psi gonna be on this 45cc res.
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While it would be safe at 2000 psi (or more) I found that pumping past 1800 was too difficult, and that pressure gave me the results I wanted, 3 shots at 40 FPE.... I would personally put a gauge on the gun that only went to 2000 psi if I were Mike and I could get one (but they are impossible to find).... Mike is upgrading the valve screws to 10-32, which is a really good idea as it's easy to overfill the small reservoir if you don't use a regulator.... and of course if you are using a 3000 psi tank and the regulator fails, guess what, you end up with 3000 psi in the gun.... The threaded 16 gr. CO2 cartridge that I used to increase the reservoir size is rated at 250 bar MSWP and 500 bar burst, so it's not an issue....
Bob
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Would it be a benefit to use a regulator in this gun?
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Basically useless, the reservoir is much too small.... Tethering it to a regulated tank, on the other hand, will work extremely well....
Bob
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Ok. isnt the indy regulated? Do you know the volume of the reservoir on it?
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not as far as I know, and no I have no idea how big the reservoir is on an Indy.... Let me ask you this.... what good does it do to pump a gun to 1800 psi and then regulate it at 1800 psi?.... Alternately, if you pump the gun to 1800 psi and regulate it to 1000, it will now shoot at the velocity it would shoot at 1000 psi, and for the number of shots that the reservoir can supply between 1800 and 1000, which with a small reservoir is very few.... You then need a second chamber (plenum) of about 1 cc per FPE between the regulator and the valve, which in this case would be the same size as the reservoir.... I don't see how to make a regulated PCP work with a small reservoir, but perhaps you know how?....
Bob
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it seems pointless to regulate a gun that only has 2-3, maybe 4 shots.
you can control the spread just as well with a good tune
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No i dont know how rsterne, i was just curious, now i understand.
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I found a graph of a .22 Discovery tune that showed at least 15 shots of 800fps for 22.6 fpe with 15.9gr pellets. Noticed here from Bobs info that the Millennium will be 1/3 the volume of the Discovery. So I'm thinking a full magazine (assuming they end up being 5 shot) at 22.6 fpe could be reasonable to expect before having to work the pump again. For the areas I hunt that would make a very nice squirrel rifle. Maybe I missed it or just can't remember, but were 5 shot mags the plan?
I think I'm obsessed with a tune that shoots a full mag with consistent velocity be it a 5,4 or 3 shot.
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Yes, the mags will be 5 shot in .25 & .30 caliber...maybe 7 shot in .22 - we haven't gotten there yet. Those parts are happening later thus week, early next week.
Mike
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The more shots you take, the more you have to pump to top it up.... and it's not quite linear, the later shots take more pumps.... For example, when tuned for 3 shots of 40 FPE my Millennium Pumper took 11 pumps after 1 shot, 13 more for the next shot (total of 24) and 16 for the 3rd shot (total of 40) to get back to 1800 psi.... This is because the higher the pressure, the more efficient (and quieter) the shot.... When hunting, I would repump after each animal (unless you get a double), to both minimize the number of pumps, and to spread out the work.... Pumping 40 times and then seeing a squirrel right afterwards would be quite a challenge, I would think....
Bob
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Oh man, I might have to smash my daughter's piggy bank if I keep reading this thread.
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When hunting, I would repump after each animal (unless you get a double), to both minimize the number of pumps, and to spread out the work.... Pumping 40 times and then seeing a squirrel right afterwards would be quite a challenge, I would think....
Bob
Thanks for all your explanations and for sharing your experiences with your original pumper. Thinking about operating as you say above by refilling after every shot helps me understand the folks looking for more powerful tunes. Trying to shoot a full magazine before pumping may not be what I would try to do after all.
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Not necessarily after every shot, unless you manage perfect one-shot kills every time, and never get the opportunity of more than one target (I've shot as many as 4 Grouse in one covey with 5 shots, with a PCP).... However, when the flurry of activity has ended, and I'm putting the birds in the cooler, I take the time to reload the magazine and top off the gun with air (if necessary) before I continue my hunt.... Then you are always ready with a full mag and reservoir for the next round.... I do the same thing even if I only shot 1 shot (except for air on a PCP, I nearly always go the whole day on one fill).... With a pumper, I would pump before continuing my hunt.... The number of shots you need in the string depends on what might be your worst case scenario, hoping you never need that lower powered back-up shot.... or only for a "coup-de-gras"....
Bob
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I've been in some target rich environments when I was carrying my Steroid 392 and wished I didnt have to pump 14 times between shots...then you find yourself pumping *enough* (7 or 8 ) so you can shoot again before the 2nd opportunity (or follow up shot) disappears.
I'm with Bob - pump up and top off the mag after each encounter.
I will have more production pics this Wednesday...
Mike
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Sounds great. Can't wait to see the tuning results of all calibers.
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A bit more progress on the breeches...the breech/tube band location has been machined and the barrel location drilled and threaded.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141112_121139492_HDR.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141112_121139492_HDR.jpg.html)
There are two .25 barrels and two .30 barrels that have been threaded into breeches but I didnt make it back to Jim's today to see them...I will post pics tomorrow.
Mike
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Nice!
So does the carbon sleeve of barrell go over that shoulder extending from breech or does it butt up against it?
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Cool, so nice to see Weaver rails on Breeches, all companies should go that way
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Really nice looking work. I'm excited to see the final product. I'm interested in getting a .25 when they're done.
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The breech band area is .750" OD - the CF sleeved barrels will be .750" OD as well.
The .30 cal barrel is .590" OD, the .25 barrel is .560" OD and the .22 barrel is .500" OD.
The sleeves will butt up against the breech face themselves (the CF sleeving will match the OD of the breech band knob) and the .22's sleeving will butt against the knob too.
The .30 & .25 barrels will get bushings then CF sleeving - the .22 barrel will get sleeved in .625" OD 6061 T6 aluminum, then sleeved again in CF.
The barrel hole in the breech is .500" in diameter.
That's a long explanation for *Yes, the barrels index against the breech knob* ;)
Mike
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Looking Good
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That's a long explanation for *Yes, the barrels index against the breech knob*
That explanation works for me. Interesting difference with the smaller diameter .22 being sleeved in both alluminum and carbon fiber.
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I didn't want that much glue between the barrel and cf tube...so I had to build up the OD of the .22 barrel. There just happens to be aluminum tube that is .509" ID x .625" OD and the cf tube happens to be .625" ID x .750" OD.
:)
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not as far as I know, and no I have no idea how big the reservoir is on an Indy ....
The FX Independence - A first day Review (pic intensive) (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1276392199/The+FX+Independence+-+A+first+day+Review+(pic+intensive))
The rifle can be manually pumped to 220 bar easily.
The onboard block is only 20 or 22cc approximately ....
FX Independence .22 Caliber (http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/FX%20Independence.htm)
Here is a run through of how the FX Independence works: starting with a full charge, the rifle requires three easy pumps with the onboard pump for every shot taken.
The rifle can be fired up to 7 times at full power with match grade consistency before any pumping is required.
From this point, 21 pumps would be required to return the rifle to a full charge.
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Definitely NOT regulated, the FX website talks about finding the "sweet spot".... The big difference with the FX is that it uses a 3-stage pump to achieve 220 bar (3200 psi).... no doubt a large part of the cost....
Bob
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Seems, comparing them Millennium Pumper to the FX Independence is not quite as simple as apples versus oranges.
The FX Indy strikes me as more PCP-like because of its higher operating pressure.
Employing a lower-volume higher-pressure reservoir along with a higher-output pressure multi-stage pump for replenishment.
While, the Millennium Stroker is less PCP-like and more-like a true multi-stroke pneumatic.
Using a larger-volume lower-pressure reservoir coupled with a single-stage lower-pressure recharging pump.
As such, comparing a Millennium to an Indy may not be a fair or realistic comparision.
Rather, the Millennium is more-like Steve-in-NC's Air Conserving Pumper (http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/blog/2009/01/steve-from-ncs-wicked-cool-air.html).
Lest anyone think I'm disparaging the Millennium Pumper ... I am not.
I very-much admire Steve-in-NC's modification (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=76600.msg735828#msg735828) of the Benjamin 392.
Save for the fact it is a single-shot in .22 caliber ... I'd like to own one in .177 or .20 caliber - not .22.
Rather, I'm viewing the Millennium Pumper from a more pragmatic perspective considering my intended purposes.
From my point-of-view, the Millennium Pumper resolves all of my perceived short-comings of Steve-in-NC's simple yet-effective design.
For-the-most-part, the repeating capability of the Millennium Pumper is the first-and-foremost draw for me.
Along with cost effectiveness, simplicity and, hopefully, ease-of-maintenance of a multi-stroke pneumatic.
And, embodies all-of-what American Ingenuity is known for : no-nonsense usefulness, practicality and affordability.
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On the .22 barrel, no chance of corrosion problems between the steel and aluminum? Regards, Tom
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Tom, there shouldn't be...the barrels will be lightly oiled before being threaded in. A grub screw in the top of the breech like the factory steel breech will keep them from shooting out of index.
Electrolosys happens when water is present - the oil should act as a monolithic barrier between the 2 metals.
With regularly scheduled maintenance checks it should never be an issue...certainly don't just forget about the gun for a few years!
The space between the steel barrel & aluminum sleeve (.0045") will be filled with Jim's psycho epoxy...the 2 metals won't touch.
Mike
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On the .22 barrel, no chance of corrosion problems between the steel and aluminum?
A wrap of Teflon-tape (PTFE tape) should ensure the effects of corrosive galvanic reaction between the aluminum receiver
and carbon-steel barrel should be minimized.
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I doubt that there would be any electrolysis between the too metals. You need an electrical current running between the two for a extended period of time to see the effects of electrolysis. You can get good old oxidation of both aluminum and steel. You will see rust way before you will see any electrolysis specially because there is no currect.
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aom22.... The reservoir volume on the original Millenium Pumper was similar to the Fx (28 cc vs. 22) but as you say at a lower pressure.... On Mike's version that is increasing to 45cc, which is more PCP-like.... Steve's ACP, to the best of my knowledge, uses basically a 392 valve (which is only 4.2 cc), and he runs less than 1500 psi.... Virtually all MSPs that are pump-and-dump have valves that are quite small as otherwise they waste a lot of air.... quite the opposite of the Millenium Pumper.... For a pump-and-dump you should never exceed 50% of the barrel volume for the valve, and 33% (or less) is much more efficient.... For a 24" barrel, the barrel volumes are 15cc for .22 cal, 19cc for .25 cal, and 28cc for .30 cal.... The reservoir on a PCP (or ACP) can be as large as you want, because the timed valve conserves air....
Bob
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aom22.... The reservoir volume on the original Millenium Pumper was similar to the Fx (28 cc vs. 22) but as you say at a lower pressure....
On Mike's version that is increasing to 45cc, which is more PCP-like....
Bob, my reference to PCP-like was with respect to the higher operating pressure of the Indy and the use
of a multi-stage pump to achieve higher compression.
While the the Millennium uses a much-more conventional single-stage compression system and works on significantly lower
operating pressure.
To me, the difference in capacity of the respective reservoirs is a direct reflection of the distinctly dissimilar operating pressures
the of FX or the Millennium.
I presume, the Millennium performs more at a MSP pressure-level ... rather than, a PCP pressure-range.
By-the-way, Steve-in-NC experimented with using a 16grm CO2 cartridge as a reservoir for his AoA 392 ACP.
ACP392 as Self-Contained PCP: 6 shots - 606fps - ES = 6fps. (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1236106241/1236197390/ACP392+as+Self-Contained+PCP-+6+shots+-+606fps+-+ES+-+6fps.)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v398/pneuguy/SCPCP392a.jpg)
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aom22.... The reservoir volume on the original Millenium Pumper was similar to the Fx (28 cc vs. 22) but as you say at a lower pressure....
On Mike's version that is increasing to 45cc, which is more PCP-like....
Bob, my reference to PCP-like was with respect to the higher operating pressure of the Indy and the use
of a multi-stage pump to achieve higher compression.
While the the Millennium uses a much-more conventional single-stage compression system and works on significantly lower
operating pressure.
To me, the difference in capacity of the respective reservoirs is a direct reflection of the distinctly dissimilar operating pressures
the of FX or the Millennium.
I would think, the Millennium performs more at a MSP pressure-level ... rather than, a PCP pressure-range.
Not all PCP's operate at 3000+ psi, the MAC-1 USFT and the Benji Discovery are good examples of PCP's that operate in the sub 2000 psi range. A PCP would be a PCP if it operated at 100 psi, as long as it has a pre-charged reservoir and did not need to be recharged for every shot. I think the Millenium is simply a PCP with a very small reservoir and a onboard pump.
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Not all PCP's operate at 3000+ psi, the MAC-1 USFT and the Benji Discovery are good examples of PCP's that operate in the sub 2000 psi range.
A PCP would be a PCP if it operated at 100 psi, as long as it has a pre-charged reservoir and did not need to be recharged for every shot.
I think the Millenium is simply a PCP with a very small reservoir and a onboard pump.
I believe the sub-2000 psi air rifles were intended to be dual-fuel capable ... thus, the lower operating pressure.
Should these sub-2000 psi pneumatics be considered more as CO2 guns?
Or, HPA guns that operate at CO2 pressures?
Now, consider this ... remove the reservoir from the Millennium Pumper design.
What would be left ... I would think, a fully-functional pumper.
Or, conversely add a mobile multi-stage high-pressure hand-pump to a PCP.
You have a PCP with an on-board charging mechanism.
Then, remove the air bottle from the design?
What be left ... a PCP or a MSP?
Certainly not a PCP ... by definition a PCP requires an air bottle.
A fully-functional MSP ... I'm not so sure.
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I realize Steve in NC experimented with the 16 gr. CO2, that's where I got the idea for my Carbine.... I didn't realize he incorporated that into the ACPs that he sold through AoA.... OH!.... wait a minute.... he didn't.... It only takes 8 pumps to fill the valve, so it's obviously only stock volume....
I guess you can call the Millennium Pumper anything you want to.... does it really matter?.... It operates like a Disco with an onboard pump and a reservoir 1/3rd the size.... I think that is what is important.... YMMV....
Bob
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.... I didn't realize he incorporated that into the ACPs that he sold through AoA....
OH!.... wait a minute.... he didn't.... It only takes 8 pumps to fill the valve, so it's obviously only stock volume....
Right. The air reservoir in the MkII is just the volume of the valve body (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1260578909/Right.+The+air+reservoir+in+the+MkII+is+just+the+volume+of+the+valve+body.).
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Not all PCP's operate at 3000+ psi, the MAC-1 USFT and the Benji Discovery are good examples of PCP's that operate in the sub 2000 psi range.
A PCP would be a PCP if it operated at 100 psi, as long as it has a pre-charged reservoir and did not need to be recharged for every shot.
I think the Millenium is simply a PCP with a very small reservoir and a onboard pump.
I believe the sub-2000 psi air rifles were intended to be dual-fuel capable ... thus, the lower operating pressure.
Should these sub-2000 psi pneumatics be considered more as CO2 guns?
Or, HPA guns that operate at CO2 pressures?
Now, consider this ... remove the reservoir from the Millennium Pumper design.
What would be left ... I would think, a fully-functional pumper.
Or, conversely add a mobile multi-stage high-pressure hand-pump to a PCP.
You have a PCP with an on-board charging mechanism.
Then, remove the air bottle from the design?
What be left ... a PCP or a MSP?
Certainly not a PCP ... by definition a PCP requires an air bottle.
A fully-functional MSP ... I'm not so sure.
An MSP is simply a PCP with an onboard pump. History is full of PCP airguns that operated far below 2000psi and carbon dioxide was not even commercially available at the time or were you under the impression Lewis and Clark simply did not want to carry a lot of CO2 cartridges around?
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Yes, I agree.... The ever increasing pressures we see in PCPs have a lot to do with the technology of the time, and the availability of that technology at reasonable cost.... The 800 psi of the Girardoni, with it's riveted iron tank, is the 4500 psi of todays custom big-bores....
Bob
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Here's some more pics of the top ends...the barrels are threaded into the action, but have not yet had the leade and transfer port cut or the muzzle threaded yet.
The barrels are 25" long and there will be a nub at the end of the pivot pin/tube cap for a barrel band to fit over just Like Bob made on his original version.
The uppers will be attached by 2 bands and the rear 8-32 screw.
There is .010" setback of the barrel face from the stick mag.
Remember, these are just roughed in...they are far from a finished product.
Jim is cutting the tube radius today and drilling the 5/16" OD transfer port in the breech.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/_20141114_140302.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/_20141114_140302.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141114_130737600.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141114_130737600.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/_20141114_140345.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/_20141114_140345.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141114_130710943_HDR.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141114_130710943_HDR.jpg.html)
We are starting on the powertrain tomorrow - making valves and slotting main tubes.
More to come!
Mike
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That barrel set up looks to be very solidshould allow for incredable accuracy
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I agree, that's the way barrels SHOULD be installed.... I like the idea of the front barrel band on a pumper, it just makes everything more rigid.... With our rear breech band going around the boss on the front of the breech this thing should be rock solid.... and that means deadly accurate....
These are coming along GREAT, Mike.... Give Jim a ^5 for me and tell him nice work !!!
Bob
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I will do that Bob!
That .30 cal barrel sure has a big hole...LOL
:)
Mike
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Yes, and it doesn't make very big holes at 50 yards, either.... I've shot more than one 5-shot group you can cover with a dime with that barrel and the 45 gr. FX (JSB) pellets.... with the 50 gr. Daystates darn close, maybe cover 5 with a nickel?.... Everybody that has tried one of our barrels loves it.... I know Mike at TJs has sold a ton of them.... Quite a few guys are reporting MOA at 100 yards....
Bob
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;D I want one in .357
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;D I want one in .357
Believe me, we kicked that around! Theres enough meat in the breech to do it...but that's asking a lot from a Disco based powertrain.
It would be a stand alone caliber meaning no caliber/barrel swaps - or it would dissolve the .22 from being an option due to available maximum barrel OD of .500" in .22
I can only imagine how many pumps that would take for a classic Pump N Dump!
:o
Mike
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;D Actually .22 is fine for most of what I will be using it for
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;D I want one in .357
Start eating your spinach. ;D ;D
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Good!
I have two .22 barrels that need homes on customers guns!
;D
Mike
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Yes, a .357 could be done, but to get any decent power (eg 100 FPE) you basically need to dump about half the air in the valve in one shot.... and that mean's a LOT of pumping.... The lack of compatibility with other calibers, and still relatively limited power and velocity (for a .357) were the reasons to leave that as a possible "one of" custom approach when we know for sure how the .30 cal performs.... Trying to extrapolate from .25 cal to .357 was just too big a leap.... Once the performance of the .30 cal is mapped out and we know what the maximum (and sane) performance levels are, then we will be in a better position to make a better guesstimate of what a .357 might (or might not) be capable of.... and whether there is realistically any point, other than bragging rights (mine's bigger than yours!)....
Bob
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No, I understand that there are practical limitations and accuracy + performance long term are way more important than the bigger is better concept. With good shot placement the Millenium will make a great survival rifle in either .22 or .25
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Not to mention the human effort that's going to be needed to pump up a .357 rifle! Get out the dumbbells & do some chest butterflies to get in shape to pump up one of these rifles. Sounds like a good chest/arms workout.
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Yes, a .357 could be done, but to get any decent power (eg 100 FPE) you basically need to dump about half the air in the valve in one shot....
and that mean's a LOT of pumping....
Might be the .357 would be a better candidate as a bottle rifle.
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It seems that once guys go to .357, they are looking for a deer rifle or similar sized game, which IMO means 200 FPE.... I've built three rifles of that caliber based on a Disco platform, the Carbine was 74 FPE starting with a 2000 psi fill.... The rifle version broke 100 FPE with a 2400 psi fill.... and got 127 FPE max. at 3000 psi, with a 4 shot string averaging 120 FPE.... All of those were with EunJin pellets, the velocity with cast bullets was under 700 fps.... My latest Disco Double has been pushed up into the 140-170 FPE range at 3000 psi, and will drive a 78 gr. JSB pellet at roughly 850 fps when the pressure is down to 1800 psi (140 FPE), but that is with 135 cc of air on deck (the entire upper tube).... It would never get to that with a 45 cc reservoir at that pressure....
When you refer to a bottle gun, if you mean regulated, then to get to that 140 FPE power level, with the size ports possible in a Disco valve, you would need a very large plenum, at least the size of a standard Disco tube, and at least 1800 psi.... I think that unless some breakthrough comes along, 200+ FPE big bores will remain primarily unregulated, large reservoir guns with only a few shots.... Hatsan is facing the same thing with it's big bore versions of the BT65.... the .30 cal looks like a winner, the .357 needs a lot of work just to produce acceptable FPE.... I didn't want to see the Millennium Pumper criticized because a .357 version was underpowered....
Bob
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Any closer to deciding on a ballpark price yet?
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;D My true interest is with a .22 or .25 at under 40 yards it will be plenty of power with a well placed shot as long as the shooter is patient. If a hunter can and does take large wild boar with a .25 to the noggin then it will put meat on the table if the skills of the hunter are sufficient
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I *should* have a price within a week or so...it will be listed in my Vendor Gate when I do.
Mike
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Agreed my interests are in .22 and .25
although I would be interested in a 20 fpe
.177 for field target...
Looking forward to more pics! I'll be watching for the price to 8)
Joseph
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... although I would be interested in a 20 fpe .177 for field target...
Joseph, Mike has already addressed this concern.
If your really set and serious about a .177 I can build you one using a choked Lothar Walther barrel and tune it to 12 ft lbs.
I will PM you when we get to that point...
I'd like to have an Mil-Pump in .177 as well.
However ... like you ... my priority is .25 caliber.
The real question is "how many buyers are interested in a .177 Millennium Pumper."
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Any platform ends up having an "ideal" caliber, and in the Millennium Pumper I think that may be .25 cal.... That's not to say that the .22 cal won't be a great gun, with more shots and cheaper ammo.... and the .30 cal for the guys who get a grin when they smack something hard.... When you go further, then you have to make some compromises, either turning the power down (.177) or accepting a lower velocity and a lot of pumping per shot (.357).... This gun won't be any different than any other PCP in that respect....
Bob
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Just curious, will these rifles continue to be manually machined after this first batch or will you guys go CNC?
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We will go CNC if the demand for the guns is there...the first 10 or 20 will most likely be manually machined.
Sales will determine what I'm willing to put out up front.
If sales are slow then manual machining suits me just fine...CNC is only worth the cost if you're running 50-200 pieces of whatver part.
We have a local CNC shop, so that option has already been addressed.
Mike
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I had a question about the stick mag and side lever.
So you load the stick mag insert it into the breach and close the side lever shoot your shot cock the side lever again at this point does the mag index to the next round? Also wondering if you can accidently double load it. I have an fx that I can accidently double load and I have a hatsan Galatian that wont let you double feed.
Just wondering what you came up with
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There's no side lever - its a bolt that functions just like the factory Discovery bolt. The exception is when you pull the bolt back it recesses completely into the breech, fully exposing the loading port - you slide a stick mag into the loading port until it stops on a ball detent - close the bolt. Now the gun is loaded but it is not cocked.
The cocking lever attached directly to the hammer will be located on the side of the gun - you will need to cock it separately from loading.
Once you shoot - repeat...open the bolt - manually index the mag over one stop - close the bolt - cock - fire.
If you double load the gun it is because you moved the magazine over 1 click before you shot the last round.
There are 2 main reasons the gun has a manually indexing aluminum stick mag and a separate cocking function:
It *has* to cock separately in order for the bolt to recess fully into the breech so the loading port is clear for the magazine;
The magazine is a piece of machined 7075 aluminum with a couple of o rings around the circumference... There's nothing to go bad or break.
I wanted this to be as robust of a design as possible so the Millennium Pumper fits the bill of an Ultimate Survival Tool...that also means simplicity of function and design.
If you drop a stick mag then stomp on it with your boots, just pick it up...wipe off any dirt or grime and keep on going.
I think a Marauder magazine would fail that test horribly!
Mike
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I have been following this from the beginning and am wondering if you plan to set up any distributors in any areas around the country? I am considering becoming a distributor for the SMG22 line but this pumper may have more appeal in my area than the automatic. I live in the hills and mountain area of East TN and we have a lot of survivalist type folks around here that might be interested in one of these for squirrels and other small game. Gene
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We *certainly* would like to set up some dealers! Its tough though when you don't have something tangible built to demonstrate and test.
I have one gentleman in Canada that is interested in importing them there...other than that I have been waiting to have a couple of finished guns to showcase to dealers before I seriously approach anyone here in the United States.
In .22 & .25 these certainly will bag squirrels & rabbits and protect the garden!
;)
Mike
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Thanks for the info I thought somewhere I read that it was going to be a side lever gun.
I agree with you its a lot more important for this to have fewer parts to brake and get packed full of dirt and &^^&.
I also really like the stick mag idea because then you can mount your scope low and not deal with the huge hight over bore like on some of the other guns.
So far this really looks like the ultimate survival rifle. Have you though of making a spot in the stock or somewhere on the rifle to carry an extra loaded stick mag?
Actually I could probably machine a holder that mounts on the rail to hold an extra mag or two and have it lock in with the same style detent that the mag indexes on. I would think you would have enough room under your scope to fit one if you are using a 50mm or bigger objective.
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Will the factory safety of the Marauder trigger set be functional? So much fun to watch your progress!
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Agreed! It's a pleasure to watch! I'll be getting a .25 after seeing the reviews. Send one to Ted and you will have to make that CNC order.
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Yes, the Marauder trigger (and safety) will be fully functional - I use that trigger or the Prod trigger frame on all of my builds for 22xx or Discoveries.
I will have to get Teds contact information...I'd love to have him do a video review of the Millenium Pumper!
Great idea...Thanks!
Mike
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Agreed! It's a pleasure to watch! I'll be getting a .25 after seeing the reviews. Send one to Ted and you will have to make that CNC order.
+1 Ted does some good reviews.
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In case you hadn't heard.... Tim @ Mac1 Airguns just won the Extreme Bench Rest contest using one of the .300 cal barrels Sean & I designed, made by Mike at TJs.... It was 9/16" OD with a 1/8" thick CF sleeve to stiffen it up.... in one of Tim's USFTs.... Good on him, and good for the .30 cal barrel on the Millennium Pumper....
Bob
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WOO HOO! Way to go Tim!!!
Yer killin me Bob...now I *have* to get those barrels sleeved and tested!
;)
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Going back to the extra magazine in the stock, why not just push it in from the rear and let it lock in and release with a button or some such? With wood stocks, you would have enough room to add a couple of loaded spare magazines. Now that is a selling point for folks wanting to go out and not carry a tin of pellets with them in the field. If you are hunting, three magazines should give you all the pellets you need for one outing for squirrels. While you are thinking about it, why not add a rail on the front side for an accessory like a tripod or flashlight? Or, build the tripod as an integral part of the front? Just thinking off the top of my head here of things that shooters tend to like.
When you get ready for distributors, do you have in mind a minimum number to be purchased in order to become a distributor (like maybe 3 or 5) and an effective discount so that the distributor can sell it at your retail and still make enough money to make it profitable (maybe $100-$150 off per unit)? Or, have you thought about setting up something special for pre-production distributors who want to invest in advance? I'm just throwing ideas out here for you to think about. I really like the sound of your pumper and we just closed on a house yesterday so I'll have a little extra to invest pretty soon.
Gene
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Thanks for the suggestions Gene...
The shoulder on the end of the tube cap where the pivot pin is will have a sling stud installed (like on a shotgun tube cap).
I will talk to Jim today and see about having a 2 slot Picatinney rail on the side of the front band to attach a flashlight to as I can see a use for that for nighttime pesting.
I would rather leave the other options up to the customer to do so we keep costs as low as possible and keep the weight as light as we can.
I've thought about skeletonizing the butt section of the Blaster stock to drop some weight from the rifle but I'm not sure about that yet...it might look funny.
I don't want to have so many 'little' details that we get sidetracked...maybe after we get some guns sold and get user feedback we can make some adjustments.
Mike
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I'm more for a clean looking rifle design. Skell stocks rarely work out in the wood. The Steyr 110 being about the best example of getting it right but that style does not seem to go with the Millenium.
Careful what you hang off it, people might start calling it the "Millenium Plumper" ;D
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I would rather leave the other options up to the customer to do
so we keep costs as low as possible and keep the weight as light as we can.
Mike, how about posting a list of options and/or standardized option package you or rstrene might suggest for our consideration.
Attach points (front and rear) for a sling is a good starter.
I'd also like to be able to specify length-of-pull ... I have short arms.
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I will have to get with Jim about machining add on parts...we're really focusing on the rifle with spare mags & our superb LDC as options.
They *WILL* be available in a Left Hand configuration! Stock color choices for left hand are limited to Pepper, Nutmeg and I believe Camo.
Your Length of Pull *must* be forwarded to us before I order your stock from Norm.
Here are some 1/2x20 threaded muzzles with an 11* target crown from today...
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141118_120539370_HDR.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141118_120539370_HDR.jpg.html)
Not our aluminum LDC but *very* close!
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141118_120433793.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141118_120433793.jpg.html)
Jim is making valves and should be finished with them tomorrow sometime...BTW - Those are Jim's feet in the LDC pic LOL *The Mystery Man* ;D
Mike
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Yes, the Marauder trigger (and safety) will be fully functional - I use that trigger or the Prod trigger frame on all of my builds for 22xx or Discoveries.
I will have to get Teds contact information...I'd love to have him do a video review of the Millenium Pumper!
Great idea...Thanks!
Mike
Maybe could start here? http://tedsholdover.com/contact/ (http://tedsholdover.com/contact/)
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Good looking sub assembly parts . ;)
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;) Ok , so we /I would like a price and possible availability for a .22 or .25 I have $750 in the kitty for my next AG so unique and accurate with a strong simple action is a definite + . You make great .25 hp bullets and a great rifle to go with them is in my future
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All I can say is *Not to Exceed* $1200.
When I have a price set I will post it in my Vendor Gate and let you guys know when it's listed.
Mike
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Those barrels look nice! I Worked at a machine shop making gun parts for several years and am impressed with how this project is moving forward I dont think most people understand what it takes to make this happen.
So you are going to sleeve those barrels with carbon fiber correct? Is your ldc going to be all aluminum or aluminum and carbon fiber?
Is the not to exceed $1,200 with the LDC?
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;D Great that is within my budget
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Yes, the barrels will be sleeved with 1/16" thick walled carbon fiber and glued on with some epoxy I'm not familiar with...I just call it *Jim's Psycho Epoxy* :)
Its the same glue used to adhere the tiles on the nose of the space shuttle - its oven cured and is an absolutely*permanent* bond.
I'm really trying to come in around $1000 but I just can't say until Jim makes every single part and knows what he needs money wise for each part...once that is done I can set a price...all of my material costs are already calculated.
The LDC will be an add on option as there's places outside of the USA that they're not allowed (such as Canada).
I can tell you right now the LDC will be $200, but its the best you'll see in an air gun.
It will be thick walled aluminum, 3 pieces (2 end caps & a tube) but the muzzle cap will be a 1 piece monocore that slides into the body of the LDC.
The internals of the main tube will be coated with 1/8" of Sorbathane.
Dimensions will be 1.5" OD x 6" long.
If you want to change calibers all you need is the appropriate end cap/monocore piece to screw in the end of the tube...those will be 1/2 the cost or less than an entire new LDC.
We're making fine quality parts...these aren't pieced together guns!
;)
Mike
p.s. Thanks for noticing the details of what we're building :)
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;D I know it is a pumper but will there be a foster fill also?
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Yes!
It will have a Foster fill nipple on the side of the gauge manifold for tethering or filling from a pump or buddy bottle.
Mike
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I think my biggest problem now is deciding what optic to mount on this awesome rifle.
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;D Ok it sounds like you have another .25 sold
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Jim's good friend that started Nightforce Scopes with him is now a rep for Kahles...I've been discussing air rifle scopes with him.
He's letting us use one of his Kahles scopes for photo ops when we have some finished guns.
We will have a pow wow and see if Kahles can bring a 30mm main tube with 36mm objective and ocular bell with side focus and an air gun specific reticle.
Kahles realizes the air gun market is worth pursuing...
I'm thinking something fairly small, not too heavy and 6-18 power.
The joys of knowing certain folks! ;)
I will let you guys know if something is in the works as far as glass goes.
Mike
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Kahles realizes the air gun market is worth pursuing...
I'm thinking something fairly small, not too heavy and 6-18 power.
I'd prefer something much lighter than a UTG log.
That LDC photo is killing me, Mike.
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;D
Wait until I show you pics of our monocore!
You're gonna need a bib LOL
Mike
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My friend has the Kahlas 1-6 scope for 3 gun and its awesome! Very nice optics and definitely not budget minded but will definitely do the job :)
Are you thinking a ffp scope or sfp? For hunting the ffp is really nice cause you can use holds on any power.
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FFP is nice...I'm spoiled with my US Optics SN-3. All of my other scopes are SFP and they're useful since the holdover marks are more extreme on low power. I can shoot my rimfires at 400 yards on 3x since the field if view is larger...not the best for seeing your target up close, but useful.
I will inquire as to price difference between the 2.
Maybe I can work with Bob on a reticle that'll work ballistically between the .25 & .30 calibers.
Mike
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If this rifle scope combo is made correctly it would be insane! I see ffp reticle with drop lines from 25 yards out to 150 calculated for your custom bullets with holds for a 10mph wind. I think drop lines every 10 yards up close then as the range gets farther switch to 5 yards. Also some kind of ranging scale
would make those quick shots super fast.
I have a bdc reticle on my competition rifle and after you have used one that actually matchs your gun correctly it's hard to go back to standard mill reticle
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Hey guys, the scope I had in mind already exists!
The Nightforce NXS Compact 2.5-10x32 with the MOAR reticle.
1 lb 3 oz
12" long
32mm Objective bell, 30mm main tube & 33mm Ocular bell
I'm going to call them and see if I can visit the factory tomorrow or Friday and look at one...if they can make it focus down to 10 yards I will be ordering one after I receive my RAW.
Mike
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Vortex also makes a 2-10x ffp scope that actually has quite good glass only trouble is parallax is 50 yards.
The Nightforce is a nice scope but only comes in sfp so thats a no go for me. I might contact vortex and see if they can change the parallax
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I'm going to see if Nightforce is willing to do custom orders with FFP and the Velocity 1000 reticle...I think it would be a great scope.
Adjusting parallax is very easy...Jim can do that. I'll take a look at the Vortex too...
*edit* I just checked out the Vortex...it focuses down to 35 yards - its a pretty nice scope! The Nightforce wins the reticle battle though if they'll do the Velocity 1000 reticle.
At least I have 2 manufacturers I can approach that would only need slight tweaks to an existing scope.
Mike
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I know from a manufacturers point of view it would be alot easier to put a different reticle in a scope then It would be to redesign a sfp scope to be a ffp. Just something to think about.
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I'm going to play Devils Advocate for the SFP based on conversations with one of my friends who is an active USMC Sniper Platoon Commander, awarded the Bronze Star with Combat V, was only short of the confirmed longest American sniper kill by 100 meters (SASR @ *edit* 2204 meters) and is currently assigned to head the USMC Scout Sniper Program...and has been for a couple of years now.
I'm not giving out his name on an open international forum...bad OPSEC.
FFP vs SFP doesn't matter - when engaging targets you're at maximum magnification which is why *most* scopes do their range finding at that setting...unless you're shooting the SASR there's not much use for magnification above 10x as it limits your field of view to identify multiple threats and ability to correctly lead moving targets (out to 800 meters).
I know - entirely different application to circumstances vs air rifle hunting - but my view remains the same.
*If* I have time to range a target then I have time to crank up the power setting.
At most typical air rifle hunting distances, 75 yards is the farthest you'll be shooting...I would rather have a useable reticle at different power settings (reticle stays same size).
My USMC Mil Dot on my US Optics SN3 1.8-10x44 is almost non existent @ 1.8x - it is a little 'x' in the center of my scope. That's for CQB in a pinch (low power setting) but I operate with that scope @ 10x...its a FFP scope.
I have charted all of my SFP scopes to know my holdovers at a certain power setting for a given distance.
Just the *other side* of SFP vs FFP
;D
Mike
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Good post! I really respect your friends opinion and I agree with you to a point. And that is why more manufactures are now making dual focal plane scopes that offer a good close quarters reticle in sfp and a bdc reticl in ffp.
for airgun distances 25 to 150 yards I think it is a lot easier to guess the range and use a hold for drop then It is to guess how far 700 yards is and hold for that.
If you have time to range it you probably have time to dial rather than hold.
Of course this is just my opinion
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;D I am glad that my retirement is only a couple of weeks away . Now I will have the time to learn more about the science of the hobby that has lasted a lifetime (shooting). My days of competitive shooting were spent with open sights and the only long range shooting was done with open sights and known predetermined distances. Therefore there was more art than science in my shooting. Knowing my gun and how it shot was paramount. Next spring I will be an educated shooter with science in my back pocket ;D ;) and a Millenium pumper in my arsenal
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I am sure you are going to have a blast with your new rifle!
Long range shooting is so much fun! But gets a bit expensive with firearms.
I just came over to airguns last year and am loving it! You have all the same challenges as long range without the cost and noise.
Learning your ballistics making wind calls accurate range estimation all comes in to play even at only 100 yards. I really enjoy the challenge of hunting long range with my pellet rifle! I Cant wait for these guns to be in production they are a work of art and very well thought out design. Finally someone is making the gun I have been searching for the past 2 years.
I almost got a fx independence last year but decided against it for a few reasons. Mike has solved all the issues I had with the fx and from what I have seen so far is going to produce a gun that is a cut Above.
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Hey guys, I'm *seriously* considering making the Millennium a Side Pumper.
One of the members here e mailed me pics of his Sharp Target Model pumper and I like it.
The pump arm is to the right of the barrel.
I would have Jim make a nice 7075 aluminum pump handle for the lever.
This would allow *full* stock support (no forearm cutting) and you'd have a better place to grab the rifle from (on the forearm) for pumping...avoiding having to grab the scope to pump it.
It would also allow for a larger variety of stocks to be used other than just the Blaster.
What do you think?
Bob? Any comments?
Mike
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_0243.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_0243.jpg.html)
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In theory I like the idea. It seems the added cost would be offset because there would be no need to modify the other stock.
It would look nice and be functional.
As long as it doesn't make it harder for you or increase the cost much I think it's great.
Matt Hayes
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We have to mill the pump tubes either way - all we'd be doing is changing *where* we mill it.
I think the cost of the aluminum pump handle would be offset by Norm not having to chop his stocks in half...
I think its a go!
Mike
BTW - The valves are done...I'm heading to Jim's after I field test my Wicked Monster S/HP's. I will post pics as soon as I can.
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No idea which is more comfortable to pump, I wanted to be able to use Tim's billet linkage not have to make one from scratch.... Make sure you think about things like pinching your hands/clothing on the scope, etc., that will limit the angle you use for the side lever.... Also, the load is significant, if the diameter of the handle you push on is too small, be prepared for pain.... That is one thing I really liked about the Blaster stock the way I used it, was the large bearing area for your hand.... You are correct that the most comfortable position for your other hand is across the top of the scope between the rings, which I never found to be a problem.... I say do whatever you want, I just built the prototype.... Just think through the ergonomics.... The stock will still need work for the 16 gr. CO2 chamber ahead of the gauge....
Bob
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The gun will pull a touch to the right when shot off hand. Will there be a significant pump effort increase? I don't know about this choice. Good luck.
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I looked at the Steroid linkage...the Blaster pump handle adds more length = more leverage = less pump effort.
I will entertain the side pumper later...Thanks Bob! Insight to concerns I hadn't considered.
No side pumper for now...
Mike
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Hey guys, I'm *seriously* considering making the Millennium a Side Pumper.
One of the members here e mailed me pics of his Sharp Target Model pumper and I like it.
The pump arm is to the right of the barrel.
I would have Jim make a nice 7075 aluminum pump handle for the lever.
This would allow *full* stock support (no forearm cutting) and you'd have a better place to grab the rifle from (on the forearm) for pumping...avoiding having to grab the scope to pump it.
It would also allow for a larger variety of stocks to be used other than just the Blaster.
What do you think?
Bob? Any comments?
Mike
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_0243.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_0243.jpg.html)
I think it's the best Idea you had in a while :)
Like that you can eventually make the rifle in tactical configuration too using Crosman pistol grip and AR15 collapsible stock, ...that would make a considerably lighter gun overall
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I looked at the Steroid linkage...the Blaster pump handle adds more length = more leverage = less pump effort.
I will entertain the side pumper later...Thanks Bob! Insight to concerns I hadn't considered.
No side pumper for now...
Mike
I would stick with the under pump for now at least.
Looking forward to the pics 8)
Joseph
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Now I See said the blind man . In my dreams .
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I'll build *one* as a side pumper how I had in mind (still using Steroid lever & linkage) and compare the two...that we we'll all know if its worth pursuing.
Mike
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Side pump sounds great, but why would offhand shots pull?
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Center of Gravity not aligned with the barrel because of the weight of the pump handle to one side affecting the recoil.... This MAY increase hold sensitivity laterally....
Bob
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No idea which is more comfortable to pump, I wanted to be able to use Tim's billet linkage not have to make one from scratch.... Make sure you think about things like pinching your hands/clothing on the scope, etc., that will limit the angle you use for the side lever.... Also, the load is significant, if the diameter of the handle you push on is too small, be prepared for pain.... That is one thing I really liked about the Blaster stock the way I used it, was the large bearing area for your hand.... You are correct that the most comfortable position for your other hand is across the top of the scope between the rings, which I never found to be a problem.... I say do whatever you want, I just built the prototype.... Just think through the ergonomics.... The stock will still need work for the 16 gr. CO2 chamber ahead of the gauge....
Bob
I actually wanted to inquire about that CO2 chamber. I thought those were just a zinc alloy. Will they hold up well over time with hpa usage?
Hmm. no multi quote here so. WRT the side cocker. Handle size would be a huge issue. How much mass does the billet ad to the side and could the stock be re balanced with inletting and wieghts added on the other side internally?
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I would stick with the under lever design for several reasons. #1 Easier pumping #2 cleaner looking #3 lighter overall design. #4 less of a chance of smashing your fingers while pumping. #5 bigger pump grip for more hand comfort. #6 less of a chance of debris/water getting inside the linkage area while hunting.
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I don't know, I still like the Idea of the side pump better
Seems like the FX Independence is doing just fine with it :) :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jbzc-ssiJs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jbzc-ssiJs)
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hutnicks.... The 16 gr. CO2 cartridge I got was steel, rated at 250 bar (3625 psi) MSWP and 500 bar burst.... No idea if others are the same or not....
Bob
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Thanks Bob. Do you happen to know the brand on that cartridge?
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No idea, I got it from a supplier in Coquitlam BC.... I asked for dimensions, they sent me a detailed drawing and that was on it.... over a year ago, though.... The neck is threaded 3/8"-24 NF....
Bob
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Hmm. Sounds like an inflator cartridge of some sort.
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http://www.ebay.ca/itm/16-GRAM-CO2-THREADED-CHARGERS-1-box-30-units-/151313776387?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item233b00ff03 (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/16-GRAM-CO2-THREADED-CHARGERS-1-box-30-units-/151313776387?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item233b00ff03)
Bob
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I've got valve bodies!
They still need exhaust ports and drilled/tapped 10-32.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141121_142152936.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141121_142152936.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141121_142134565.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141121_142134565.jpg.html)
These are the CO2 bulbs I got...they're steel.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141121_181540761_1.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141121_181540761_1.jpg.html)
Mike
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Making progress!
Thats a cool looking micrometer it looks like you can set the size and then just ajust the other side to check parts and it shows you your tolerance? Too bad we did not have one of those in the shop I worked at.. we were expected to just be able to read a normal one to check parts.... Some people had some issues with that and scrapped a lot of parts.
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Yeah, that one measures to 50 Millionths of an inch or something...you have a heartbeat and the needle moves of your near the adjuster! LOL
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http://www.ebay.ca/itm/16-GRAM-CO2-THREADED-CHARGERS-1-box-30-units-/151313776387?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item233b00ff03 (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/16-GRAM-CO2-THREADED-CHARGERS-1-box-30-units-/151313776387?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item233b00ff03)
Bob
Yes I was looking around and saw those too. Ran across 20 gram units as well which has me going Hmmm, again. ???
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I saw the 20 gram too...but its too big around for our gauge manifold with the breech/tube band.
Mike
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I saw the 20 gram too...but its too big around for our gauge manifold with the breech/tube band.
Mike
On this version ;D
I've been toying around with a couple of ideas and the 20g might work.
Might just fit into a pistol grip............wouldn't it?
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The 20 gr. also has 3/8"-24 NF threads.... There is also a 25 gr.... no idea of the diameter, threads, or MSWP.... Next up from there appears to be 45 gr. but it has 5/8" threads so is a LOT bigger....
Bob
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The 20 gr. also has 3/8"-24 NF threads.... There is also a 25 gr.... no idea of the diameter, threads, or MSWP.... Next up from there appears to be 45 gr. but it has 5/8" threads so is a LOT bigger....
Bob
The 45g's are made for ATV and motorcycle tire inflators so take a larger chuck. The 25 should (Hate using that word) be the 3/8 thread they are made for high pressure Road Bike tyre inflation.
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Now if it was a *side pumper* there'd be all of that unmolested forearm wood to hide something in! The only limitation would be OD but we could always make a different gauge manifold or an adapter LOL
Jim REALLY liked the side pumper idea and we're going to build at least one...I may just leave that as a user option after I can post details of the differences between the two.
I see pros & con's of both versions...
If we don't like the side pumper all it cost us was a Disco tube and a little machine time.
The decision was made to mill the loading bolt so that it's ambidextrous. Just unscrew the bolt handle and screw it in on the left side.
The cocking knob will still be on the right side...Norm is looking into an Ambi stock with the same depth at the gauge (or very close) to the Blaster stock.
Mike
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Could even use that something in an offset config to balance the weight of the pump.
One thing that has had me curious in general is why in this day and age with uberstiff materials no one uses a telescoping pump arm.
-
If the OD of the CO2 cartridge is larger than the reservoir (7/8") then the inletting in the stock will have to be wider as well.... leaving gaps along the sides of the reservoir when it is in place.... That was my reason for using a 16 gr.... invisible when installed....
Bob
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Mike,
I was reading a thread in the machinist forum about your carbon barrel sleeving and was wondering if you got that all figured out?
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I guess I'm a little late to the party and I thought I have read every post here but I don't remember seeing a price on these. Was it mentioned ?? thanks
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I guess I'm a little late to the party ....
The original goal was to stay under a $1000.
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Yes, I have the cf sleeving figured out...
I *should* have a hard cost this week - Jim is working on all the little parts.
I posted a *Not to Exceed* of $1200...but I am trying to keep it under $1000.
Mike
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Yes, I have the cf sleeving figured out...
I *should* have a hard cost this week - Jim is working on all the little parts.
I posted a *Not to Exceed* of $1200...but I am trying to keep it under $1000.
Mike
Are those valves above have the same O.D. as a 13xx valve?
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No, the 13XX valves are 1/8" smaller than the 22XX/Disco valves....
Bob
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No, the 13XX valves are 1/8" smaller than the 22XX/Disco valves....
Bob
Okay. I thought it was 22xx size.
-
Was wondering if you could run co2 in this gun for plinking? I run co2 in my airforce condor in the summer and it works alright with light pellets. Would be easy to make a fill adapter from my 20oz paintball tanks to fill through the foster fitting.
-
I was just wondering if I could cobble up some C02 system to pre pressurize the air res to 800 psi or so.
-
If you want to run CO2 I would tether it to an upright bulk tank (no dip tube) so that you have only vapour in the gun.... Crank the RVA back to not waste CO2 at the lower pressures, and plink away....
Bob
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I like where you are going with that.
I'm sure there is a way to do that just not sure how to make it happen.
I do basically the same thing when my scuba tank runs low I just top off with the tank then finish with my fx 4 stage pump.
-
I run a remote line from a 20oz tank all the time in summer on my 2260.
I bought an expansion chamber for a paintball gun that I run right after the on/off adapter on the tank - it has a fine mesh screen inside so ONLY vapor passes into the line.
Very consistent with Predators @ 700 fps!
I plan on testing g a Millennium with CO2 so we have data on it...I'll have to do it in the shop though - its too cold to do it outside!
I think the Millennium will be one of the most versatile rifles available.
Mike
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Awesome! I bet a 20oz will give a ton of shots In the summer.
Im sure this will be the ultimate rifle.
I have been working on some design ideas for an auto indexing mag for quick followup shots. I like your stick mag idea for utter reliability for the survival rifle aspect but for just fun hunting in my target rich environment im planning on making a mag that will index itself.
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Jim has been wanting to play Mad Scientist *BADLY* for an auto indexing magazine...I keep telling him *No*!
While I will agree it isn't that hard to do, the premise is to have the most robust rifle with minimal little things to break or not work correctly so the Millennium is always ready for duty!
You think *THAT* is keeping Jim up at night, you should see what else were working on! ;)
Jim used to build 100,000 psi pressure vessels for hydro cutters...he made everything including the sealing rings and compressors...we're going to build some full auto .360" round ball shooters that operate off of a 10,000 psi tank for LOTS of shots! LOL
No, the gun won't have that much pressure in it - it will be regged.
Jim & Jeff (now Kahles rep) engineered the Nightforce scopes including the turrets that have 1 *billionth* of an inch of backlash!
You should see these two guys standing in front of a white board going over design criteria!!!
See what happens when you get a man with experience in the right areas bitten by the Air Bug?
:o
Mike
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Wow I've been under a rock for a month and missed this news. This is going to be a great gun for the average Joe who wants a high powered pcp air rifle but is turned off by hand pumps or scuba tanks. I talk to a lot of non AG hunters who are fascinated by the power of my modded Mrod but can't get over the hastle as they see it of hauling an air source around. Most are familiar with pumpers from their childhood days and the first question out of their mouths when they are figuring out whether they want a pcp whether they can pump it up like a bb gun and they get turned off when they are told they can't fill it that way.
For me, this looks like it will be an excellent survival and camping system. I've packed out a handpump before on my backpack... not fun. For "prepping" I'd often wondered what I'd do if my hand pumps broke on me. Springers are an option but their power is so limited. I also like that you are offering it with a LDC option. A survival gun needs to be quiet otherwise it offers little advantage over a firearm.
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Yeah, I'm getting excited!
This first run is going so slow because Jim is making tooling, building jigs & fixtures and writing down all machining specs on my plans I've drawn for him.
We are *Almost* to slotting tubes, assembling a barreled action and shipping at least 1 to Norm so *He* can make jigs & fixtures for making the stocks.
Once this first run is done we should be able to turn out guns in 1 week - add the time it takes to order barrels, stocks, pump levers & parts - and our turnaround time should be no more than 4 weeks.
Mike
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;) Mike , I can't wait the see a finished product IDK if .22 or .25 but if the .30 is as feasible as Bob the master guru gives it the science blessing and bullets are readily available that is probably going to be my first choice
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Mike. I did not mean in any way that you guys would have trouble designing a mag for this gun I was just saying that personally I was going to design and machine my own auto indexing mag for my own gun. And I do agree for a survival rifle the stick mag is the way to go.
I can tell from everything so far you guys know what your doing and Jim is a very capable guy. Parts for the nightforce scopes are made in a machine shop 20 minutes from me so I definitely understand the level you guys are at.
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Oh, I was just *Confirming* you aren't the only one who wants an auto indexing mag! LOL
If you guys agree that Nightforce Scopes are built to extreme quality standards then you understand the build quality of these rifles.
;)
I will post full results of the .30 caliber so you guys 'on the fence' of which caliber to choose can make an informed decision.
FWIW - I'm designing a lightweight Spitzer slug in .300" caliber including Wicked Monsters...they should be out early next year.
Mike
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Lol glad we are on the same page.
Im not happy with any of the current mag designs I have seen and am working on some different ideas. I need to see the breech before ill build my prototype. But hopefully it works as planned.
-
? When will you start taking deposits for the .30? MUST HAVE!
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I will announce a set price and deposit amounts next week for the gun with 1 barrel in the caliber of your choice.
It will come with 1 strip mag.
The LDC, spare strip mags and extra caliber packages will be additional to the base rifle package.
Deposits will most likely be 50% which will cover the stock, barrel, cf sleeving parts, pump lever linkage and *some* of the Crosman parts - these guns aren't cheap to build!
I will announce when the price has been listed in my Vendor Gate so I am abiding by forum rules.
Thanks everybody!
Mike
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How is it going over there?
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The digital readout on Jim's mill went out Friday...I'm hoping it gets fixed tomorrow.
Mike
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Jim's mill is fixed...
I've announced *pricing* in my Vendor Gate.
Mike
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I think the price is fair since this aren't guns made in China but are custom pieces
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Everyone would always like a lower price, but as Manny said, these are custom produced, one at a time, from low volume parts runs.... I think Mike has done a great job to bring them in at the price he has.... I look forward to seeing, and shooting, the finished product....
Bob
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I worked at a machine shop making prototype parts and running production parts for the gun industry. To be honest I cant believe he can make them for what he is. They are actually going to take a big loss on the first few guns. Typical shop time costs $1 minute then there is the actual cost of materials and all the time to put everything together and test them.
Only way this product is happening is cause these guys love airguns!
I hope everyone here supports them the best they can to keep good guys like them making awesome stuff for us.
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Hey brother! Any accuracy reports yet!?
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No completed guns yet...maybe another 4 weeks or so.
Mike
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*Update*
I'm sending an assembled lower (minus full internals) to Norm for stock fitting...we're just about done with the power trains then will work on the breech & stick magazine assembly.
We will begin finally barrel assembly once I place my orders for customers barrels - I'm giving folks 1 more week then I'm ordering blanks.
Once that's done the 2 versions of the LDC will begin. Personally I'm going with the 20" barrel and the full 1.25" OD carbon fiber shroud held in tension against the breech band ;D
We're getting closer folks!
Mike
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141215_120545.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141215_120545.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141215_120453.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141215_120453.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141215_120411.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141215_120411.jpg.html)
Teaser of the week...I set the lower in my Disco Double Tube stock from my Challenger, just to give you an idea of what it'll look like - my stock is Royal Jacaranda.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141215_125819.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141215_125819.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141215_125908.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141215_125908.jpg.html)
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I like the looks of the gauge/CO2/Foster manifold, looks like you might have to nibble off the front upper corner for your breech band?.... I like how everything fits together, though....
Bob
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We're going to cut a 1" radius where the band will interfere with the gauge manifold :)
The lower (minus piston head & follower, piston rod, valve, hammer & RVA) weighs 2 lbs 5 oz.
I think around 8 lbs unscoped will be awfully close for the weight of an assemble rifle.
Also, the production guns will have a hardened 3/16" pivot pin with e clips for ease of maintenance... I hate drive pins!!!
It depends on if we have to drill out the insert for the pivot pin Tim installs...
Bob, the measurement from the bottom of the tube to the face of the pressure gauge is ~1.480" so the gauge will be slightly recessed into the stock for protection.
Also the schedule 80 nipple that's been silver soldered into the manifold has a .200" opening - I will probably have Jim open it up to .266" to match the valve throat if uts safe to do so.
Mike
Mike
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Yeah I noticed the roll-pin but figured you wouldn't leave that.... *grin*....
You will have to look at the wall thickness on the nipple to the bottom of the threads and do the math to determine the maximum ID.... Not sure how big a hole you can get in the neck of the CO2 safely either....
Bob
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I might must have missed it, but what size is the tank on there?
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There is about 25cc of volume inside the pump tube and another 20 in the CO2 cartridge used as a reservoir.... for a total of about 45 cc....
Bob
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There is about 25cc of volume inside the pump tube and another 20 in the CO2 cartridge used as a reservoir.... for a total of about 45 cc....
Bob
Just an open co2 bottle or a special valve on it?
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Looking real good CRS. I really like what i see here.
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It's a 16 gr. CO2 threaded cartridge with a hole drilled into the neck, no valve.... It just increases the air volume of the reservoir to give more shots....
Bob
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Thanks Cedric! :)
I've been working roughly 18 hours a day since August between my full time job, producing slugs full time and spending a couple hours at a time at Jim's drawing parts plans.
He's all tooled up now and has caught up to me *Very* fast!
I will finish plans on Thursday then work on slugs for a week.
Then when I'm all caught up (LOL!) I'll be at Jim's machining parts with him for the second run of Millenniums.
Good thing I'm not married...My wife would despise all things air guns! ::)
I'm really hoping to be tuning customers completed rifles in a few weeks - I will log and post all range data.
Mike
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Can't wait to be out shooting my new rifle! These are looking great!
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One setback guys...it was brought to my attention by one of the airgun TV shows (I e mailed them to see if they'd like to review a rifle) that there's already a firearm called the *Millennium*...I Google searched it and its the Millennium line of pistols from Taurus.
I am trying to contact them to make sure its not an issue naming this air rifle the Millennium, as I don't want to buy myself a lawsuit :(
Hopefully they agree and put it in writing...otherwise we will have to come up with a new name for the rifle before I send the breeches out for laser engraving.
I'm open to suggestions while I wait to hear back from Taurus International...
Mike
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Here's a couple just to get some thoughts rolling out there:
"Freedom", "Exemption", "Liberator"
8)
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One setback guys...it was brought to my attention by one of the airgun TV shows (I e mailed them to see if they'd like to review a rifle) that there's already a firearm called the *Millennium*...I Google searched it and its the Millennium line of pistols from Taurus.
I am trying to contact them to make sure its not an issue naming this air rifle the Millennium, as I don't want to buy myself a lawsuit :(
Hopefully they agree and put it in writing...otherwise we will have to come up with a new name for the rifle before I send the breeches out for laser engraving.
I'm open to suggestions while I wait to hear back from Taurus International...
Mike
Have you checked the trademark?
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B.F.A.R. ;)
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LOL @ B.F.A.R.! I get it ;D
I will check the trademark - maybe it's a non issue.
Mike
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LOL @ B.F.A.R.! I get it ;D
I will check the trademark - maybe it's a non issue.
Mike
I checked for a TM and the only thing I can find is http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4810:x3xmq7.7.2 (http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4810:x3xmq7.7.2) and its for 'TAURUS MILLENNIUM' so as long as you call it a Millennium Pumper or something I would think youd be ok
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It would APPEAR that the Trademark is the two words used together.... We have the Trademark for our Motel for "Mozey-On-Inn", obviously the word "Inn" is not trademarked.... US Law may, however, be quite different.... If you search the single word "Millennium" you get lots of hits on that website....
Bob
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... call it the GTA special?...
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The default is obviously the 'STERNE' air rifle ;)
If the Taurus name is married as 2 names in sequence we should be fine.
However, I *do* like 'Big Fine Air Rifle' LOL
Mike
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why don't you just call it the Rat Pumper...
Then u can have a Rat PCP
a Rat Pistol
maybe even a RAT Sniper...
and if you go really big u can make a rat cannon...
and then best of all they can all shoot Rat slugs ;D
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why don't you just call it the Rat Pumper...
Then u can have a Rat PCP
a Rat Pistol
maybe even a RAT Sniper...
and if you go really big u can make a rat cannon...
and then best of all they can all shoot Rat slugs ;D
I like that Idea!! Especially the rat cannon!! 8)
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... the boom stick?lol
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HAHAHA!
I have visions of rats being launched at Mach 1 out of the Rat Cannon 8)
Can you imagine the size of the loading port?
Where do you stow the drag stabilizing tail?
I'll go over it with Jim tomorrow - I think *Millennium Pumper* won't get us in legal hot water just as a CYA precaution.
I will make sure the font and location looks nice - 'Pumper' will need to be in smaller font directly under the word 'Millennium'.
That may not leave room for 'Master Hunter' for those that ordered all 3 calibers with their rifle...that may mean different letter designations in front of the serial numbers to identify it came with 3 barrels.
That won't change the actual number sequence though - I want my collectors happy!
Mike
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Mike, how about the Rat Launcher? Then again, if you look at YouTube, under 'squirrel launcher' it involves several bungee cords and a plastic colander. So maybe that one's covered.
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Yeah, I saw that video...I was laughing so hard I almost dropped my phone!
Rocky the Flying Squirrel had *nothing* on that squirrel when it left the balcony!
:)
Mike
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Things have been slow due to the holidays but we're back at it!
Norm is making the first stock today and Jim roughed in a .30 cal stick mag.
This isn't done 100%, just fitted. It took some lapping compound to get it to slide freely (that's what's all over the parts in the pics).
We still need to mill slots in the ends for the o rings to recess into fully and the mag hasn't been fully deburred yet.
Jim is going to make little side plates that screw onto the ends of the magazine so it never has to he taken out of the breech - to load it up again just slide it left or right to expose the hole.
If you want swappable mags just remove the end caps - I'm going to leave the end caps on mine so I can never drop and loose the magazine.
The magazine sits flush with the breech when indexed on the first & last round, regardless of which way you feed it.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141230_125143.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141230_125143.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141230_125423.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141230_125423.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141230_125355.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141230_125355.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20141230_125331_1.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20141230_125331_1.jpg.html)
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Looking good!!
Can't wait to see it all together.
Dave
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It would be real quick and easy to put a ball and spring under the mag, and using a ball mill, make a slight indent to index the mag. If the mag does not come out there would be no chance of loosing and make it really easy and cheap to index.
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We're already doing the ball detent - the end caps are so its mechanically impossible to *lose* the magazine when out in the field.
The ball detents will properly index the mag with the bolt & barrel leade, but I won't use the gun in a manner that requires quickly changing to a fresh 5 rounds so I like the fact it will be physically impossible to lose it!
;)
Mike
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Looks good, Mike.... Can't Wait !!!
Bob
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Looks great! Cant wait to see more.
Now go break those edges...all of those sharpe edges, someone will put an eye out. ;)
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Awesome!! Do You Guys have a shop AG, or AGs that You Guys plink around around the shop?.. I couldn't imagine not having something to play around with while I'm 'plinking' around with ideas!
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LOL No shop AG...if we *did* have one it would be a full auto .358 round ball shooter - but we haven't built that one yet ;)
We're also building a 50 yard test range at Jim's for testing/tuning after I assemble the rifles.
Jim has some extremely wealthy friends - one owns an ammunition plant (and a Dillon Aero Mini Gun!) - They have taken an interest in the Millennium Pumper.
I'm hoping when they get theirs built and shoot them they'll invest in some CNC equipment for us to produce these on.
Mike
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- one owns an ammunition plant (and a Dillon Aero Mini Gun!) -
I wonder which came first??? It's my understanding, if you have a Minigun, you need an ammo plant. ;D ;D ;D :P :P
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Call it a "Mountaineer", and different models could be the "Cascade" or the "Clearwater" or the "Tulameen" or the "Orofino''
-
call it the Bob Carson rat gun
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BBB - I'm pretty sure he had the ammo plant first then got the Dillon Aero...that thing is *SICK*!!! ;D
We're good to go with *Millennium Pumper*...the only 'Rat Sniper' on it will be my company logo on the left side of the breech.
:)
Mike
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I'm getting *Stoked* Guys! We will have a fully functioning action by next week ;D
Norm will be done with the first stock around the same time (he is working on yours Bob).
Hey Bob...does this look familiar?
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150101_123148.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150101_123148.jpg.html)
We are going to make our own heavy felt wipers which will be located behind the piston head - that's what the extra length of threads are for.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150101_123300.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150101_123300.jpg.html)
I just used a punch for a temporary roll pin...
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150101_123228.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150101_123228.jpg.html)
We *are* going to use roll pins for the pivot pins...Jim opened my eyes to the advantages of using them and they are super easy to deal with when you have a proper roll pin punch and a plastic pin block.
The revised end cap has 4 holes in it - we will make a 'D' ring that fits into it for attaching a sling to and getting leverage on the cap in case you need to unscrew it.
I have to tell you guys the feel of operating the pump is *exquisite*! It will work in over time but it is butter smooth and stays closed all by itself...the benefits of close tolerance machining :)
The mag has been detented for a ball...
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150101_124058048_HDR.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150101_124058048_HDR.jpg.html)
Tomorrow the first breech will be slotted for the bolt handle and the tube will be completed for the check valve and hammer cocking pin.
Happy New Year everybody!
Mike
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How long is the piston stroke? Also is it 22xx or 13xx tube size? Happy New year!
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Its a Disco tube, so the OD of the piston is .740"
The length of the piston assembly from the back of the follower to the face of the piston is 7.4"... the stroke length is 7.2" if measured from the center of the link pin hole.
The follower & piston head are bottomed out tight onto the rod...then there's the lock nuts.
I'm locating the check valve in the tube so that there's only a few thousandths between the piston face and the check valve face...which will make adjusting the flat top piston really easy.
Mike
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Its a Disco tube, so the OD of the piston is .740"
The length of the piston assembly from the back of the follower to the face of the piston is 7.4"... the stroke length is 7.2" if measured from the center of the pivot pin hole.
The follower & piston head are bottomed out tight onto the rod...then there's the lock nuts.
I'm locating the check valve in the tube so that there's only a few thousandths between the piston face and the check valve face...which will make adjusting the flat top piston really easy.
Mike
Okay. Looken good.
-
That magazine looks cooool. I've been waiting so long for someone to make a breech with that style of magazine like the crosman 760 has. Would it fit on a crosman gun or maybe a qb78?
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They will fit on a Discovery/22XX - we're using a Discovery tube...I'm not sure about a QB.
I will have a functional powerplant tomorrow
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150107_142321.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150107_142321.jpg.html)
Here's the positive closure check valves
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150107_142404.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150107_142404.jpg.html)
I had Jim machine a barrel on one end of the check valve to house a light spring retained by a cotter pin.
The check pin itself is stainless steel.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150107_142443.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150107_142443.jpg.html)
More to come in a few days!
Mike
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I like the check valve.... no spot milling for the screw head?....
Bob
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You know what...I *missed* that!
I will have Jim mill the spots - we forgot! ::)
The valves have them...I guess I got tunnel vision because I'm going to have a .30 cal to SHOOT next week and overlooked it ;D
Good call Sir...Thanks!
One thing I forgot to mention - Jim is going to make the pivot pins out of 316 stainless steel, stake a ball and spring on the ends (just like an AR15 pivot pin for mating the upper & lower) then harden the pin - That way the rifle is truly *field serviceable* without tools...Ok, at least you can remove the piston assembly with just a small punch for the pivot pin and link pin ;)
Jim made a hollow punch with another smaller hollow punch in the middle then hardened the cutting surfaces - now we are punching out our own heavy felt wipers for the piston assembly.
The entire powerplant of the rifle has been standardized using -113 o rings everywhere in the powertrain except for inside the valve (-111) and check valve (-003).
Mike
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I like the idea of using the #113s everywhere.... they are less prone to shaving on the gauge and screw holes, and it's nice to have them standardized.... Like the idea of a spring loaded main pivot pin as well....
Bob
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One thing I forgot to mention - Jim is going to make the pivot pins out of 316 stainless steel, stake a ball and spring on the ends (just like an AR15 pivot pin for mating the upper & lower) then harden the pin - That way the rifle is truly *field serviceable* without tools...Ok, at least you can remove the piston assembly with just a small punch for the pivot pin and link pin ;)
Mike
I'd be curious to know how Jim will harden 3XX SS. As far as I know, most will choose 4XX or 17-4 when a hard condition is required. If there is a secret I'd sure like to know :)
Tom
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I like the idea of using the #113s everywhere.... they are less prone to shaving on the gauge and screw holes, and it's nice to have them standardized.... Like the idea of a spring loaded main pivot pin as well....
Bob
#113 oring?
EDIT: Nevermind! yes, oring... I need to read more!
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I don't know Tom - I will ask when I see him tomorrow morning.
Does 316 not harden the same as 4xx series? That's out of my area of knowledge.
Mike
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The 3xx series Stainless steels are very low carbon, and therefore do not harden. The 4xx series are high carbon , and will harden.
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Thanks!
I will make sure we use 416 rod or similar...
Mike
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nevermind
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Well, I assembled a lower today and installed a factory breech with a TJ's 1:14 twist .250" barrel today ;D (the Millennium breeches aren't finished yet).
No gauge manifold either - I'm waiting on some more parts to arrive.
The rifle was assembled just like Bobs original Millennium. It only took about 45 pumps to get to 1800 psi from dead empty (I will accurately record the pumps tomorrow - I was too excited to shoot it!).
The rifle is shooting at 40 ft lbs - there's sear drag on the hammer so we will try adding brass bushings under the Mrod trigger tomorrow to correct that. I also turned a TP out of Delrin...its too hard to get a good seal even though the part was made spot on with about .005" crush on it.
My 45gr slugs were shooting at 635 fps with 13 pumps per shot. Kings were shooting at 855 fps.
I'm using a 2" long 10# hammer spring - I have lots of things to tweak tomorrow. Since I was using a factory top end the hammer stroke was shorter than I wanted...tomorrow I will make the side cocking knob and tap the striker - that will lengthen the stroke.
I know once I lengthen the stroke, get a solid TP seal and get rid of the sear drag the numbers will come way up.
The pump effort (no stock or pump handle) was similar to a Steroided Benji at 14 pumps.
Yes! My left hand is dented LOL
I ordered some 5/16" Teflon rod for the TP's - I will try poly tube tomorrow after I fix the other issues.
First shot was 40 ft lbs out of a pumper though!
Pressure dropped from 1800 psi to about 1400 psi...a second shot yielded 625 fps with my 45gr slug.
More to come guys...I will take pics tomorrow. I just wanted to update you all.
For the *first shot* on an assembled lower that had a cobbled together top end I'm happy.
Mike
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I bet pumping with a stock on the rifle will be so much easier!
Were you getting those velocities with the 25 inch barrel?
I can't wait for my gun! Im so excited i can hardly contain myself. Glad i waited for these rather then going with the fx independence.
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I used the *old* barrel from my .25 Challenger...I think its at 25.5" or so.
Pumping with the stock on it will be really nice! This is not a pumper that kids can shoot though - you definitely need to bring it in close to your chest when you close the pump arm. The Steroid Benji example is the most accurate way to describe it.
I want my 65+ ft lbs tomorrow!
;)
Mike
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It only took about 45 pumps to get to 1800 psi from dead empty
That sounds low, even without the gauge manifold, I think my Millennium Pumper was more like 80 pumps to 1800 from empty.... but it sure puts a smile on your face to see 40 FPE with a pumper, huh?....
Bob
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Yes it t does! I was disappointed but happy at the same time...I mean a *Pumper* hit 40 ft lbs ;D
Bob, it only took 13 pumps from dead empty to 500 psi and another 30 or so to get to 1800 psi.
I nicked the first o ring on the piston after I fired a few shots so we'll need to really port an angle in the pump arm slot on the tube where the piston o rings initially squeeze into the tube diameter...they bowed up slightly in the slot when the pump arm was open.
That positive closing check valve sure is nice...I saw pressure on the gauge with just 3 pumps!
I assure you it *did not* take 80 pumps to get to 1800 psi! I didn't have a pump handle on the lever and *you* know what its like pumping it that way raw handed LOL
The tube around the check valve was getting pretty warm while pumping - its definitely moving some good volume when pumping it up.
1500 psi back to 1800 psi only took 8 pumps.
We're also making custom pins for the Foster fill nipple so they are positive closing with a light spring too.
I will document everything and report back tomorrow after I fix the little issues I discovered today...
Mike
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My Millennium Pumper, with the 3 cc gauge manifold but not the CO2 cartridge, lost 300 psi for a single 45 FPE shot, and that took 11 pumps to replace....
Bob
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Hmmm...I will have to check that gauge (brand new from Crosman) as soon as I have a manifold together...I'm just waiting for Marine Tex so I can glue the CO2 bulb in. I will have a gauge manifold to install no later than Friday.
Then I can hook up my regulated 1800 psi bottle or my CF tank and see if that gauge is accurate.
Maybe I wasn't anywhere near 1800 psi - that would help explain the low numbers too.
I won't know for sure until I have something to compare the gauge against.
Mike
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That was my thoughts.... Some of those 1" gauges are pretty far off....
Bob
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Yep, I got one from McMaster that moves in 500 psi increments. :( Was only 10$ so I didn't expect a lot.
Tom
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I'm going to tear down the lower tomorrow to rework the pump slot...I think I have another gauge I can try.
I screwed the gauge directly into the Prod adapter so I'm 3cc's short on volume compared to your build Bob. When I air it up I will just pump it 75 times from empty and see what it reads.
The hammer is only 54 grams (Prod hammer) and is lacking the added mass/weight of the cocking knob...maybe there's not enough dwell due to the light hammer. I figured the cocking knob will add another 5-10 grams and bring it close to a 2240 hammer in weight.
I am hoping the light/fast hammer will help with efficiency. I don't think the light weight will be an issue on an 1800 psi fill.
I'm going to bore the Delrin TP out to .250" in the center and use a piece of poly tube to get a good seal while waiting for the Teflon rod to arrive - the issue is the TP recess on the barrel/breech I have on the gun is at 1/4" and the tube/valve exhaust face is at 5/16" = I need the delrin spacer on the valves exhaust port to center the poly tube.
I should have data to post by noon tomorrow.
Mike
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Your volume should be about 10% less than my 28cc, so 10% fewer pumps (eg. 70-72 to 1800 psi) would be my expectation.... If your slot is a bit shorter (swept volume larger) or your altitude lower (I'm at 2500') you could have fewer pumps, of course.... Also, your reservoir might be a fraction shorter than mine (longer check valve or valve front, or smaller valve front ID or volume), which would build pressure faster.... Bottom line is, it is what it is, and fewer pumps is better....
Bob
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Ok, dead empty with 70 pumps got me to the red line above 2000 psi - confirmed by slight valve lock on the first shot...the gauge is accurate.
Still had TP leak as I didn't get a chance to make a new one...the PTFE rod shipped today, so I will have that in a few days.
At 1400 psi a 37gr Spitzer gave 715 fps...a second shot from 1100 psi gave 695 fps.
There's more in it due to the TP - I'm getting a puff of air in my face when I shoot it, so there's some power loss there.
The main issue is the 54 gram hammer doesn't have the mass to give enough dwell @ 1800 psi. The brass bushings I made for the Mrod trigger took care of the sear drag and I tapped the hammer 8-32 and installed a side cocking bolt to it.
Bob, how many grams was your hammer on your build? We're just going to make our own hammers. I was thinking 70 grams including the cocking knob weight. What do you think?
Mike
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Here is the original hammer from my Millennium Pumper, with stroke adjustment and integral guide.... The spring is longer than stock, likely a QB7X spring or 2.25" long equivalent....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Millenium%20Pumper/IMG_2834.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Millenium%20Pumper/IMG_2834.jpg.html)
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Millenium%20Pumper/IMG_2833.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/Millenium%20Pumper/IMG_2833.jpg.html)
Unfortunately, I don't have a weight, but that guide looks to be 3/16" x 3" long.... My hammer weight calculator, for a hammer with no waist, and a guide of that size, gives a weight of 74 grams.... Initial testing was done with the striker recessed into the front of the hammer as much as 0.20", giving a stroke of 0.80", but the hammer was striking the back of the valve body, so I reduced the recess until that no longer occurred.... I ended up with a recess of about 1/8", but there was no difference in performance between that and having the striker flush with the end of the hammer, only a difference in required preload.... (less travel = more preload)....
If you don't have enough hammer strike, and your hammer weight is anywhere close to 70 grams (including guide and/or handle) then you likely need a longer (~2.25") hammer spring.... Although you are only running 1800 psi, you have a slightly larger throat in the valve than I used, which may require more hammer strike to unstick the poppet, depending on the sealing diameter.... I now use a loose hammer guide, held down by the front end of the spring, and a solid hammer with no adjustable striker, getting the extra travel by either shortening the stem, a recess in the hammer face, or a combination of both.... You need a minimum of 0.150" lift possible without the hammer hitting the back of the valve, to make sure it never hits.... At 1800 psi, the valve only opens about 0.060", but that increases as the pressure drops to about double that on the last usable shot....
Here is a photo of the loose style of spring guide I use now (that one is 7/32"), which doubles as a cocking indicator (it protrudes though the hollow RVA screw when cocked).... These parts are from my .30 cal Disco Double, before I fitted the rear cocking knob.... Note the recess in the hammer face.... Hammer and guide weigh 77 gr.... Your side cocking hammer won't need the indicator feature, of course....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/30%20cal%20Disco%20Double/IMG_3388_zps79491a46.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/30%20cal%20Disco%20Double/IMG_3388_zps79491a46.jpg.html)
As in any regulated gun (which the MP will be when tethered), you want to try various hammer strikes to verify that you can max out the gun at 1800 psi.... You are looking for something like this when you plot velocity vs. preload, with the heaviest pellet....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/QB%20on%20HPA/QB79NinjaDelrin1200_zps999456be.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/QB%20on%20HPA/QB79NinjaDelrin1200_zps999456be.jpg.html)
That will tell you two things.... One, what the absolute maximum FPE (the plateau) is with the heaviest pellet.... and Two, how far you need to back off the hammer strike to avoid wasting air.... That point is the "knee" of the curve, on the above graph about 4.5 turns out.... You should NEVER use more preload than that.... Tuning for multiple shots starting from 1800 psi will require even less preload, of course....
Bob
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Thanks! ;)
My Challenger hammer is around 82 grams with the guide (very similar to yours - I used yours to model mine from when I built that gun).
I'll make the assembly at 80 grams. The spring is a .045" wire x 2" long x .360" OD - its a 10# spring IIRC - its plenty for my Challenger @ 70 ft lbs but that valve has a .250" throat not the larger throat of the Millennium valve.
I will be back at it Friday morning...results by next week.
Thank You Sir! ;D
Mike
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How did I miss this awesomeness. 8)
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I would suggest you try a QB spring.... Being just over 2.3" long, it will require a longer RVA and/or deeper hole in the hammer, however.... It is about 0.33" OD.... Alternately, you may be able to find a 2.25" long spring of your specs....
Don't forget, hammer weight only affects Momentum (dwell), not Energy (lift and knocking the poppet off the seat).... The hammer energy can only be increased by the spring, preload, or travel.... For a larger throat/seal area, you need more energy to unstick the valve at a given pressure.... Only the residual energy and momentum after that occurs are available to create lift and dwell....
Bob
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WOO HOO! My fill nipple prayers have been answered! ;D
Yes, they cost much more than what I had budgeted but I *like* them! These are going on the Millenniums.
Fully captured pin plus a sintered filter.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/100343-1.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/100343-1.jpg.html)
Mike
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VERY nice, Mike.... Who makes and sells those?....
Bob
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VERY nice, Mike.... Who makes and sells those?....
Bob
http://www.ansgear.com/Bob_Long_Filtered_Fill_Nipple_Black_p/boblongfilteredfillnippleblack.htm (http://www.ansgear.com/Bob_Long_Filtered_Fill_Nipple_Black_p/boblongfilteredfillnippleblack.htm)
Here's a different brand of captive valve fill nipple that's a little cheaper but doesn't have the filter...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Custom-Products-CP-Fill-Nipple-/331425093864?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d2a7998e8 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Custom-Products-CP-Fill-Nipple-/331425093864?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d2a7998e8)
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I just ordered 10 of them from ANS Gear...this is the only fill nipple that Jack Haley would use in his guns, so I figured they *had* to be worth the cost!
Mike
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Note the comment on the website linked to about the screw on dust cap sticking in place if there is a tiny leak in the check valve.... Worth consideration?....
Bob
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You can always drill a small bleeder hole in the screw cap
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That is a good price on the CP ones. I just ordered 6. Those are what I use on my builds.
I have a Haley and it doesn't have one of the those fill nipple on it. I will have to look and see what it is.
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I found an old post on the Yellow from 2010 where either Jack or someone had said that's all he used on the Haley builds...
I read the cap issue and it becoming stuck if the fill nipple leaks - I planned on drilling a *tiny* bleed hole in the cap somewhere to alleviate that becoming an issue.
Mike
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Mike before you drill a bleed hole I'd check to see how tight the threads are. It's hard to believe that a threaded cap would be air tight unless (thinking as I type :)) it's not the thread but the two faces making the seal.
Neat fitting, is it 1/4 npt?
Tom
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My Haley has a CP products on it. I think they are a newer than 2010 product.
I snatched up all 6 that the like had above. They are normally $15. I usually get them from CP and the best they have done is $12 ea when I bought 10.
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Tom, the fitting is standard 1/8" NPT for a fill nipple...not sure what the thread for the cap is.
I will see how tightly the cap fits on...they shipped today and should be here by Monday of next week.
Doug - Yeah, it might be...I was on *internet search mode* when I ran across the link to the Bob Long fill nipples on the Yellow. I may have gotten my information mixed up but Haley was mentioned with these somewhere.
Here it is! It was 2012...Jack said he only used 'these' and they were $15...he probably meant the CP's...
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1349466952/Source+of+HPA+fill+nipple+with+captive+check+valve- (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1349466952/Source+of+HPA+fill+nipple+with+captive+check+valve-)
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The threads look huge on my computer screen LOL
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Today all of the barrels & the fill nipples were delivered! ;D
Just waiting on Crosman delivery for tubes, hammers, RVA's, triggers, etc...
Here's an assembled manifold (minus the gauge - its on the rifle at Jim's). I glued the bulb in with Marine Tex after a 60 second chemical bath of the parts for degreasing...its *permanent*.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150117_113638.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150117_113638.jpg.html)
Teflon rod is here on Tuesday...at least when that shows up now I can tether the gun @ 1800 psi and do some tuning work!
The screw on cap has an o ring recessed that seals the nipples face...that's where the pressure/leaky nipple/cap removal came from on the review of the Bob Long fill nipples.
I'm leaving any cap mods up to the owners...
They were worth the $20 each!
Slow progress but progress nonetheless!
Mike
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***Update***
Today I got to tether a Millennium powerplant @ 1800 psi. I got my Teflon rod and made a transfer port on the lathe.
I hit 892 fps with a King and 730 fps with a 37gr slug. What a difference a tight seal makes!
Remember guys, I'm using a 54 gram Prod hammer that has had the hole in it bored out to .375" to accommodate the .360" OD hammer spring I'm using...I have no idea what the hammer/cocking knob (a steel bolt handle for now) weighs.
I'm trying heavier hammers tomorrow to see what I get.
Here's a pic with the temporary factory top end I have on it...
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150120_162943.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150120_162943.jpg.html)
More to come tomorrow evening.
Mike
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Lookin' good Mike!!!! ;D ;D
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Today I tried a heavier hammer...I got 930 fps from a King & 800 fps from a 37gr slug.
Once I have a smaller diameter poppet to put in the valve I will try again.
We may end up making our own RVA's to accept a 2.3" QB spring as Bob suggested. I have one of Roy Weids brass Power Caps on my 22xx I'm going to try too - its much longer than a stock Crosman RVA.
I'm getting there guys! This is good information anyway as I can offer advice on achieving a specific tune condition for a given projectile weight/spring combo.
More to come soon
:)
Mike
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How long is the barrel?
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The one on there now is 26" long...its not our custom top end and I'm using a factory barrel band so it makes it difficult to ensure the transfer port has the correct amount of crush on it...I have to roll the barrel/breech over and onto the TP with the barrel band only inches in front of the breech. It is difficult, but not impossible.
The production barrel band will have recess grooves that allow the band to slide over the heads of the check valve screws protruding from the tube so it can be moved farther forward and allow for a higher angle of tilt over the TP for accurate placement.
I still think I need a bit more crush on the TP...and the barrel I'm using doesn't have the proper 5/16" flat milling at the TP...the *true* numbers will be when I'm testing with a Millennium top end.
These are just preliminary testing results...when Jim is finished on another job he is working on in about 2 weeks (and we have ALL of our parts here) the shop will be dedicated to the Millennium builds.
Prototyping doesn't pay his bills! That's why we can't spend too much time developing one little part at a time - it needs to be when we are in full production mode.
You know how that goes ;)
Mike
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Quote - "Prototyping doesn't pay his bills! That's why we can't spend too much time developing one little part at a time - it needs to be when we are in full production mode."
I'm not sure I understand. It would seem like it would be much cheaper to work out all of the details with one rifle and then make all of the components correctly. Making 10 of something and then needing to do it again because it didn't work like you expected the first time doesn't sound cheaper or better.
What am I missing?
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You are probably missing the fact that I already did a prototype, and 99% of what they are doing is simply producing parts to assemble them as closely as possible to the prototype....
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=39328 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=39328)
Bob
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We used a Disco poppet & the hole in the rear of the valves was drill at 5/32" for it...the Mrod poppet is a better choice and sleeving it with a bushing is super easy so it accommodates the 1/8" Mrod poppet.
Everything else has been machined to Bobs specs of his original build...I will elaborate more later tonight.
Mike
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I just read my post again and realized that I might have come across in an argumentative manner. I wasn't trying to, I was genuinely curious. I apologize if I came across wrong.
Thanks for your answer. I appreciate it.
(edited for spelling)
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The more I read on this project, the more excited I am for the next update!
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Hanabata808,
Im one of the ones on the list for the first 10 and im sure they will be amazing. Ive dreamed on a gun like this for awhile
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Jeremy, I think Larry has #2 or #3!
;D
I got 3 stocks today!!! I'll post pics later tonight when I get home.
Mike
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OK, did I miss the sign up list?! :-\
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These are *production * guns now...we are doing them in runs of 10 rifles.
I will announce when the next batch is being prepared for building and take payment/caliber/stock color at that time.
Our turnaround time after this first run should only be 30 days as long as all of my other vendors are good to go.
I expect the next list to start mid to end of February.
Thanks!
Mike
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Congratulations to you and Bob!
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Yes, congrats Mike. Can't wait to see pics from happy owners in the hunting thread.
I'm glad I followed this project from first few threads, can't afford one but it's fascinating to see them come to life.
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Thanks Guys!
Here's what I got today from Norm @ Discos R Us...2 Pepper & 1 Nutmeg.
They obviously still need to be finished with polyurethane but them look *GOOD*!
:)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150124_001314.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150124_001314.jpg.html)
I will post a pic of one on a powertrain tomorrow.
Mike
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Gook looking stocks.
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(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-w2dZIP16sew/TpE1L7g8IbI/AAAAAAAAAKA/kshUsHepP00/s1600/free-MrBurnsExcellent.gif)
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It is tomorrow for those of us not up at 0230. Get the wifes hair dryer on those stocks to make that poly dry quicker...says the man with nothing invested.
I'll go back to patiently waiting for more pictures now. ;)
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A pump gun with a real stock power and a mag.... Can it be true?
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I was talking to Bob and a change I'm going to make is cutting the forearm farther back...this will expose the CO2 bulb (see pic) but adds another 3" to the mechanical advantage of the pump lever, which is significant.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_2753_1.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_2753_1.jpg.html)
I have no problem pumping the gun up (even without a stock!) but I also rep out 300 lbs for 10 reps on the bench...I'm not the best judge for everybody else as to what *I* consider 'easy'.
Its a matter of function over form...I want everybody happy with how their rifle *functions* and don't want them struggling to pump up the gun.
These stocks are not wasted however...they will be used on some bottle guns I'm building like Bob's Hayabusa.
Mike
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Good looking rifle. Seeing how I'm a lefty, I like the ambi stock.
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I love the idea of more mechanical advantage.
I would also consider cutting it with a bit of an angle like the one shown. It looks a lot better than a straight cut.
Matt
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habanero, that last pic is a Disco stock on my Carbine.... The Millennium Pumper uses the Blaster stock (at the top of the page), which is a thumbhole.... although I think Mike may have an ambi stock lined up for it....
Bob
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Here's the Ambi stock that Norm will use if somebody needs one due to being a lefty...
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/Pro-Varmint.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/Pro-Varmint.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/Pro-Varmint.jpg3.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/Pro-Varmint.jpg3.jpg.html)
Here is the aluminum trigger guard (also from Norm) we will be using.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/TG1.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/TG1.jpg.html)
Mike
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In addition to the longer forearm, I also like that sleight angle on the cut of the forearm. It looks really good in the pic you posted. I think Bob's millennium pumper is that way too.
Looking first-class!!
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I agree!
I asked Norm to make an angle cut starting 1/2" forward of the gauge hole that closely matches Bob's Millennium...it should look really nice.
Mike
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A pump gun with a real stock power and a mag.... Can it be true?
You mean a "Modular, large caliber, high quality, custom Pumper with a mag"... ;D ;D you can build a pumper w/a real stock and uses a mag- 13xx/2100 hybrid w/a BNM! LOL ;D
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You can build anything lol I ment one thats actually made that way from the start. One someone can buy.
Only other one I know of is made by fx and i don't think you can say that the fx had a nice stock. At least my other fx gun had a crappy stock.
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Ok, I just got 953 fps out of a King @ 2000 psi and 780 fps out of a 37gr Spitzer @ 1800 psi.
The Disco gauge is reading 400 psi low :(
I will most likely go to a different gauge vs the factory gauge.
That's with the Disco poppet...the Mrod poppets should be here tomorrow...today I am sleeving all of the valves with a brass bushing so I'm ready to go tomorrow.
;D
Mike
Its starting to get good guys!!!
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Can you even buy a similar sized small gauge that is accurate? Has anyone ever found one and if so, where and how much? I know I have not been able to find one yet.
By the way, this project is very interesting and looks like it will turn out to be a great airgun! Way to go Bob and Mike!
Tom
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I bought one from McMaster that has identical dimensions to the factory gauge and it is accurate.
We will build a gauge adapter that I will verify the accuracy of the gauges psi reading using the large gauge on my Joe B Tiger Shark tank prior to installing them on a gun.
If someone has another source for a high quality gauge, I'm all ears! I'd prefer one with a white face vs black but I will be happy just with a *quality* 3k psi gauge!
Mike
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Dwyer series SGC2 may be the same gauge you are referring to:
(http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r750/marauderrifle/IMG_2879_zpslghwbtiy.jpg) (http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/marauderrifle/media/IMG_2879_zpslghwbtiy.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r750/marauderrifle/IMG_2879_zpslghwbtiy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D)[/url
(http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r750/marauderrifle/IMG_2808_zpspy9ki3xn.jpg) (http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/marauderrifle/media/IMG_2808_zpspy9ki3xn.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r750/marauderrifle/IMG_2808_zpspy9ki3xn.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D)[/url
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For testing, I like to use these digital gauges from McMaster-Carr; # 3834K18
(http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r750/marauderrifle/IMG_2882_zps25o1vspg.jpg) (http://[url=http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/marauderrifle/media/IMG_2882_zps25o1vspg.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r750/marauderrifle/IMG_2882_zps25o1vspg.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D)
They sell the fittings to adapt the gauge to the rifle too
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I don't know if the "link" will work - http://www.dwyer-inst.com/PDF_files/SGC2.i.pdf (http://www.dwyer-inst.com/PDF_files/SGC2.i.pdf) -
SGC2-06 is the part number for a 0-3000 psi 1" dial x 1/8" threads gauge, and is +/- 5% accurate
But it still has the "black dial".
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Those look fine by me...and they're half price of the factory Disco gauge!
They have a 2-3 week lead time according to their site and no returns.
Have they proven to be accurate & reliable? I'm not wrapped around the axle about the color of the face - I just think white is nicer to look at, but all of my other gauges are black.
Mike
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Dwyer series SGC2 may be the same gauge you are referring to:
(http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r750/marauderrifle/IMG_2879_zpslghwbtiy.jpg) (http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/marauderrifle/media/IMG_2879_zpslghwbtiy.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r750/marauderrifle/IMG_2879_zpslghwbtiy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D)[/url
(http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r750/marauderrifle/IMG_2808_zpspy9ki3xn.jpg) (http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/marauderrifle/media/IMG_2808_zpspy9ki3xn.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r750/marauderrifle/IMG_2808_zpspy9ki3xn.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D)[/url
I'm using this gauge and only have two examples. They are not great. There must be something better.
Tom
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In my experience, they have been more reliable and accurate than the factory gauge.
If you happen to need to snug them up more than just hand tight, make sure to use a 15/16" socket wrench for the best/full contact:
(http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r750/marauderrifle/IMG_2888_zpsuwa91zqd.jpg) (http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/marauderrifle/media/IMG_2888_zpsuwa91zqd.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r750/marauderrifle/IMG_2888_zpsuwa91zqd.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D)
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Dwyer series SGC2 may be the same gauge you are referring to:
(http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r750/marauderrifle/IMG_2879_zpslghwbtiy.jpg) (http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/marauderrifle/media/IMG_2879_zpslghwbtiy.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r750/marauderrifle/IMG_2879_zpslghwbtiy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D)[/url
(http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r750/marauderrifle/IMG_2808_zpspy9ki3xn.jpg) (http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/marauderrifle/media/IMG_2808_zpspy9ki3xn.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r750/marauderrifle/IMG_2808_zpspy9ki3xn.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D)[/url
I'm using this gauge and only have two examples. They are not great. There must be something better.
Tom
We're all ears... :)
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I didn't like the gauges from Dwyer. I put one on a disco double I build, and the plastic face plate came off. I never even got to air it up!
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Dwyer series SGC2 may be the same gauge you are referring to:
(http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r750/marauderrifle/IMG_2879_zpslghwbtiy.jpg) (http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/marauderrifle/media/IMG_2879_zpslghwbtiy.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r750/marauderrifle/IMG_2879_zpslghwbtiy.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D)[/url
(http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r750/marauderrifle/IMG_2808_zpspy9ki3xn.jpg) (http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/marauderrifle/media/IMG_2808_zpspy9ki3xn.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r750/marauderrifle/IMG_2808_zpspy9ki3xn.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D)[/url
I'm using this gauge and only have two examples. They are not great. There must be something better.
Tom
We're all ears... :)
I'm listening too. I sure would like to find a 1" gauge that was rated at least 5% mid-scale. Oh, maybe they are just unmarked for McMaster but I always feel more confident when the manufacturer has enough pride to put their name on their product.
Tom
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Ok, I just got 953 fps out of a King @ 2000 psi and 780 fps out of a 37gr Spitzer @ 1800 psi.
The Disco gauge is reading 400 psi low :(
I will most likely go to a different gauge vs the factory gauge.
That's with the Disco poppet...the Mrod poppets should be here tomorrow...today I am sleeving all of the valves with a brass bushing so I'm ready to go tomorrow.
;D
Mike
Its starting to get good guys!!!
Bring on the valves, Mike. I feel a power trip coming on. ;)
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Do they have any of them Gauges in BAR ?...I want to get rid of the stinking psi Gauge in my Marauder pistol.
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If I find a great, high quality gauge I will share the source with *everybody*!
The Crosman gauges are $17! I don't care if the gauges are $25 or more each...I just want the best gauge I can source for these rifles.
I need 3000 psi gauges since the Millenniums can be safely filled to that pressure when tethering...it may not need to be filled to more than 1800 psi or 2000 psi...but I want to be able to really crank her up with a .30 cal barrel and a 52 grain EPP/UG slug when I want to get serious.
I'm on the hunt for a good gauge...
Mike
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How much are digital gauges these days?
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It would be best to figure a way to mount a 1.5" gages from McMaster. Significantly better accuracy and precision. http://www.mcmaster.com/#atmospheric-pressure-gauges/=voecrd (http://www.mcmaster.com/#atmospheric-pressure-gauges/=voecrd)
cheers,
Douglas
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Click on the McMaster-Carr link that Pak provided, click on the Compact Stainless Steel Gauges (third row down, far left), then you will see the gauges listed. Click on the 0-700 to 0-4000 listing and it opens to the 0-3000 and 0-4000 range gauges. They don't look too bad with a +_2% accuracy at mid range. Inexpensive too!
Tom
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Click on the McMaster-Carr link that Pak provided, click on the Compact Stainless Steel Gauges (third row down, far left), then you will see the gauges listed. Click on the 0-700 to 0-4000 listing and it opens to the 0-3000 and 0-4000 range gauges. They don't look too bad with a +_2% accuracy at mid range. Inexpensive too!
Tom
Those are ungraded gauges. I would think at least a grade B gauge should be used in this application.
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If I find a great, high quality gauge I will share the source with *everybody*!
The Crosman gauges are $17! I don't care if the gauges are $25 or more each...I just want the best gauge I can source for these rifles.
I need 3000 psi gauges since the Millenniums can be safely filled to that pressure when tethering...it may not need to be filled to more than 1800 psi or 2000 psi...but I want to be able to really crank her up with a .30 cal barrel and a 52 grain EPP/UG slug when I want to get serious.
I'm on the hunt for a good gauge...
Mike
If you plan on filling to 3000# occasionally, A 4000# gauge would be better to get the readings closer to mid scale where they are more accurate. Regards, Tom
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Might check with some dive shops or other places like medical/industrial where accuracy is critical.
I was looking at some glycerin filled gauges; by reading about them they seemed more accurate. I found some of these (not sure if they'd be a perfect match for this application, but might help point you in that direction).
WIKA gauge (http://www.wikagauges.com/Type-23253-Pressure-Gauge-0--3000-psi-14-NPT-_p_147.html)
Grainger.com (http://www.grainger.com/product/Pressure-Gauge-WP51585/_/N-1z0dobm?s_pp=false&picUrl=//static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/4CFD8_AS01?$smthumb$#nav=%2Fproduct%2FPressure-Gauge-WP51585%2F_%2FN-bdkZ1z0dobmZ1z0fdbbZ1z0fv0dZ1z0sni1%3FR%3D4CFN4%26_%3D1422556314838%26picUrl%3D%252F%252Fstatic.grainger.com%252Frp%252Fs%252Fis%252Fimage%252FGrainger%252F4CFD8_AS01%253F%2524smthumb%2524%26s_pp%3Dfalse)
Could also try reaching out to Joe B at airtanksforsale since he uses glycerin filled gauges in his tanks as well. He might be able to point you to his source for those gauges.
Ditto what Tom said about 4000 psi gauge if there is intent to fill to 3000.
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Thank you everybody!
I measured the Blaster stock width @ the gauge port - a 1.5" will fit but the stock will be too thin on the sides to make me comfortable with it.
It has to be a 1" gauge - and I cometely agree it should have a 1% margin of error.
I'll contact Joe B - since he deals with all sorts of gauges he might know right away where to find what I'm looking for...
Mike
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Mike:
I've been looking for such a gauge for a long time. Someone needs to take the initiative and have Ashcroft, or some other US gauge manufacturer design such a gauge to our specs. You would sell a ton of them!
John
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Or, just mount the gauge on the side... Like a USFT, or a Challenger. On the next run. You have a fill nipple on one side, just put a gauge on the other. That way you can use a 1.5" Ashcroft gauge... Or perhaps mod the design a hair and like on the USFT, have the gauge and nipple next to each other.
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There's a reason they are $10-$20. Good gauges cost a lot.
Even the 2.5" ones Joe B sells can be 100-200 psi off. I have seen the 1" gauges off by as much as 500 psi.
I have bought a few 2.5" Wiki gauges from McMaster Carr and none of them are perfect. They are basically what Joe sells. Last one blew the plug and leaked all over the concrete at the range. That the second time that has happened.
I have since went to the digital gauge that's around $200 and have 2 fill setups with them.
But I also have a digital gauge that is +-.25% to check reg settings and other gauges. It is around $400 and with cert paper it is almost a $1000.
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Here's a pic of the action with a factory top end
This is one of the straight cut stocks - the fore arm pump handles will be cut at a slight angle about 3" farther back than this one.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150204_102556.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150204_102556.jpg.html)
The entire shop is dedicated to the Millennium builds beginning next week and I have all week off to work on them with Jim...we should have pics of a completed rifle by Valentines Day.
:)
Mike
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Oh! Valentines day with your new honeys :)
Nice work mike. I been enjoying watching your progress and marveling at the speed this project progressing.
Tom
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As to gauges, you might want to check out the gauges Ricky is using on his twin cylinder build. I'm actually liking this one (http://www.leisurepro.com/p-xssmtg/highland-by-xs-scuba-mini-tech-pressure-gauge). 0-5K with a 210* sweep.
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Here's a pic of the action with a factory top end
This is one of the straight cut stocks - the fore arm pump handles will be cut at a slight angle about 3" farther back than this one.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150204_102556.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150204_102556.jpg.html)
The entire shop is dedicated to the Millennium builds beginning next week and I have all week off to work on them with Jim...we should have pics of a completed rifle by Valentines Day.
:)
Mike
Very nice...so what's going on with the valves? I got a 3kpsi tube that is feeling neglected. ;)
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Those are being made next week when the shop is in Millennium mode.
:)
Mike
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Well, I got sick the first day of my vacation last week :(
Needless to say work on the Millenniums went very slow.
I will have an assembled top end minus CF sleeved barrel in .25 caliber to test tomorrow afternoon and I will add some pics.
Just wanted to update everybody...
Mike
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Well, I got sick the first day of my vacation last week :(
Needless to say work on the Millenniums went very slow.
I will have an assembled top end minus CF sleeved barrel in .25 caliber to test tomorrow afternoon and I will add some pics.
Just wanted to update everybody...
Mike
There you go, teasing us again. We want pics, We want pics, We want pics, We want pics...lol
Joe
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Well, I got sick the first day of my vacation last week :(
Needless to say work on the Millenniums went very slow.
I will have an assembled top end minus CF sleeved barrel in .25 caliber to test tomorrow afternoon and I will add some pics.
Just wanted to update everybody...
Mike
Sorry to hear that Mike hope your feeling better,
its been going around up here...
Thanks for the update.
Joseph
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Mike I know this is off topic but what ever became of the .25 RAW you were getting back in the fall?
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Hope you're feeling better Mike.
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Thanks Guys :) Its just a cold and I'm pretty much over it...first time I've gotten sick in over 2 years!
Lee, I cancelled my RAW order - I wanted to be able to buy one of my own rifles! Just because you're the one making them doesn't mean they're free!
:P
Mike
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These are just mock ups but you can see where this is going ;D
Standard
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150218_143205.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150218_143205.jpg.html)
Full shroud
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150218_142127.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150218_142127.jpg.html)
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Lookin' nice !!!
Bob
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Yes, looking nice indeed!!
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Wow! That sure looks sweet.
I was looking at your post where you say that it is no problem for you to pump it up and in the picture you show the action with no scope. In today's picture you show it with a scope and I get the feeling that the scope will get in the way of pumping. I have a Steroid Silver Streak and pumping past 9 pumps up to 14 pumps is quite a surprise. I am in process of finding/getting myself an Intregrabase scout mount that will allow me to use a pistol scope mounted away from the area that you would normally hold while pumping. Have you pumped the Millennium with a scope? Of course I'm talking about the final pumps. Do you foresee any problems to the scope or action by holding the scope while you pump? Because the stock looks a little thin to be holding it by grip while pumping.
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I pumped mine with my hand right across the turret area on the scope spreading the load to the rings.... no problem, and relatively comfortable to hold that way....
Bob
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That scope is just a Bug Buster held in place by Jim just for looks - I plan in mounting a full sized scope on mine so I can hold it like Bob described.
I only pumped it without a pump handle on the lever and I had no issues pumping to 1800 psi.
We haven't finalized the dimensions of the breech band so the stock has not yet been inletted for the band.
I will be able to answer any questions about pump difficulty with the handle once its all together.
Mike
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If you can sit on a chair or something similar and drop the scope between your spread knees then it's pretty easy to pump, that's the way i do my steroid. Regards, Tom
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I might have missed it, but what are the plans for a trigger guard?
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Chris the trigger guard will be custom made polished aluminum that will look similar to the Gen 1 MRod trigger guard.
I'm finishing up the stocks for the Millennium today and will be making the trigger guards once they are done.
Norm
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Awesome! Thanks for the quick response! I'm excited to see these finished!
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I'm excited to see some numbers come from them.
Real world pumps per shot.
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^^x2!!!!!!
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How much is it weighing?
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I filled it to 1800 psi and got 5 shots :)
885, 868, 836, 807, 768
Start 1800 psi - End 1400 psi
This was -3 turns from coil bind.
With the hammer spring -1/2 turn from coil bind:
Kings - 1800 psi = 905 fps (200 psi) / 2200 psi = 945 fps (200 psi)
31 gr Spitzer - 1800 psi = 830 fps (175 psi) / 2200 psi = 842 fps (200 psi)
37 gr - 1800 psi 778 fps (150 psi) /2200 psi = 785 fps (175 psi)
That's using a lightened Prod hammer which is what I'm going to use - I will tune for a King @ 850 fps tomorrow morning and see what the string looks like.
I will weigh the rifle once its fully assembled.
Mike
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Is that pumper using the same valve we are getting from you?
Joe
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Yep...the *exact* same valve.
I'm going to install one in my .25 Challenger Double Tube and see if she'll do 100 ft lbs.
Mike
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Cool. Let us know. :D
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Ok, I filled to 1800 psi, disconnected the line from the rifle and ran a string to see how many shots I'd get from 1 fill.
The rifle was tuned with the RVA 5 turns out from coil bind and all shots were using JSB Kings.
Here's the string:
Start 1800 psi
857.5
842.1
818.5
809.4
781.6
754.4
711.5
668.5
620.1
519.1
End 400 psi
Needless to say I'm very happy with how many usable shots I got with such a small reservoir and only 80 fps spread between shots 1 & 5.
:)
Here's a JSB King I loaded then pushed back out to check the leade engagement:
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150220_084053.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150220_084053.jpg.html)
The head is engaging the rifling and the skirt is in contact with the smooth portion - the leade has been optimized for Kings and my 37gr Spitzer slugs.
Accuracy testing in a day or two minus the cf sleeving using a .560" OD barrel - then testing with a cf sleeved barrel then with a tensioned 1.25" cf shroud over the cf sleeved barrel...that way we can document what differences each modification makes.
I will have a stocked rifle for testing tomorrow...I'll post pics tomorrow.
Mike
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I'm excited at that we are getting closer. I have one on order and I've been waiting not so patiently ;-) . . . glad it's coming together.
I assume with some more testing we can either get a little more power or get a long shot string?
Here's the reason I asked. I've read every thread I could find on Bob's gun and unless I'm mistaken his gun has about half of the storage capacity as the new design but Bob was getting three shots at or within a few fps of 850 fps. With twice the air capacity we are only getting 2. I assume it will be a simple spring or adjustment change?
Here is Bob's chart if I linked to it correctly:
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/Millenium%20Pumper/MilleniumPumper1800Strings.jpg)
There seems to also be a considerable difference in top power. At 2000 psi Bob's was pushing the JSB's at just over 1000 fps and at 1550 they were still running over 900. It seems it's taking about 400 psi more to get the same power.
I'm excited that it's all coming together. Can't wait to go shoot.
Thanks
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I'm using a different RVA/hammer/spring than Bob did...I'm *just* beginning tuning and will finalize what we will use in the rifles before they ship.
I may add weight to the hammer via a carbide spring guide.
Its coming along :)
Mike
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IMO, Mike's string indicates almost exactly the same performance I was getting, at the same pressure.... Look at the blue line on the graph, three usable shots of ~835-860-840.... If Mike backed his preload down JUST a whisker to drop the first shot to the about same 835 fps I had, I'm guessing he would have 4-5 shots within 4% ES.... In fact, I'd pretty much lay money on it.... If you want more power, just pile on the preload and burn a bit more air.... That's all I did with the red and black strings above.... I'm delighted that these initial results show consistency with my prototype....
Bob
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Ok, weight unscoped is 8 lbs
We changed the bolt configuration - its butter smooth now and does not conflict with the magazine or cocking knob.
The cocking knob is *not* a production knob - it is a handle I borrowed from one of my other guns.
The cocking knob will most likely match the bolt handle and be closer to the gun.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150221_112430070.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150221_112430070.jpg.html)
The 1.25" CF shroud was slipped over the barrel and held in tension with another LDC I have.
The gap between the stock & forearm will be eliminated - we need to drill & tap the pump lever a bit farther back...each rifle will be fitted and marked before drilling and tapping from now on.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150221_112422635.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150221_112422635.jpg.html)
This is Jim...our metal master :)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150221_104202537.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150221_104202537.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150221_104140008.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150221_104140008.jpg.html)
Accuracy testing begins on Monday. I will test unsleeved, sleeved and sleeved/shroud tensioned.
The rifles *will* get a front band on both versions.
Pumping at 1800 psi is almost identical to a steroided 392 at 14 pumps.
Stay tuned!!!
Mike
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This rifle has come together well, I must say!!!!! I can't wait to see more tuning data, and results of shipped rifles!! ;D ;D
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Trigger guards are on their way - accuracy testing is just with the barrel screwed into the breech = no bonded CF sleeve yet or front barrel band.
This is 5 shots @ 15 yards to get a baseline before cf sleeving.
These groups were shot without the LDC - the cf sleeve and LDC were just for a photo shoot.
I will also be developing Millennium specific slugs - the group dispersion of my slugs is clearly barrel harmonics.
Rifle was shot with a regged 1800 psi bottle attached via remote line.
The grids on the paper are 1/4".
Scope is a simple 4x Bug Buster and the bench was wobbly - we are building a concrete 50 yard shooting test range right now on Jim's property.
More to come in a few days...I'm finally shooting *Our* prototype!!! ;D
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150222_093219650.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150222_093219650.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150222_093557879.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150222_093557879.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150222_110716519.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150222_110716519.jpg.html)
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Looking good. So does this also mean that the valves are doing the job, and hopefully will be powering our rifles very soon? ::)
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Jim is ordering more material and running 30 or 40 valves...you need to bear with us as I don't run the shop and we're doing everything we can finalizing the little details on these first 10 guns so we can ship them out...the valves are coming! Just have some patience please.
Mike
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Jim is ordering more material and running 30 or 40 valves...you need to bear with us as I don't run the shop and we're doing everything we can finalizing the little details on these first 10 guns so we can ship them out...the valves are coming! Just have some patience please.
Mike
I know it takes time. I was just saying that in jest.
Joe
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Looks like the same hole with the Kings.
Thanks for sharing the progress.
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That gun looks really professional.
Will it have a barrel band ?
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Man, that looks COOL!!!! 8) 8) 8) I wish I could afford it but I can't right now. :( Maybe in a couple years. ;D
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That gun looks really professional.
Will it have a barrel band ?
Manny it says right here:
Accuracy testing begins on Monday. I will test unsleeved, sleeved and sleeved/shroud tensioned.
The rifles *will* get a front band on both versions.
Pumping at 1800 psi is almost identical to a steroided 392 at 14 pumps.
Stay tuned!!!
Mike
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Yes to the front band - we've extended the tube plug to accept one.
Its going to be really cool but you'll have to wait and see what we are doing with it ;)
All aluminum is getting anodized black - I can't pay a $95 lot charge for parts on one or two rifles to get sealed clear. They'll look outstanding in black, I promise!!!
Running Kings @ 905 fps and 37gr Spitzers @ 775 fps takes 12 pumps per shot to top up to 1800 psi.
I will be posting large amounts of data over the next week - I would write it down if you're interested because I won't have time to answer repeat questions.
Mike
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I'm going to be playing with carbide spring guide inserts inside the hammer - the goal is 905 fps with Kings with no preload and ? at max preload (intended for my slugs).
If you want to detune the gun to currently posted levels just remove the guide.
:)
Mike
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Intentionally running zero, or near zero, preload.... is an invitation to air wasting hammer bounce.... You are usually better off to have significant preload on a soft spring.... or often better yet, negative preload on a short stiff spring (ie rattling around loose when uncocked).... There are exceptions, and every design is an individual.... but that is the trend I am seeing again and again....
The two springs I tried on the Millenium Pumper were a QB spring (0.33" OD x 0.047" wire x 2.3" long) and then one 0.30" OD x 0.045" wire x 2" long, with a rate of 18.7 lb./in.... The final results were with the shorter spring.... Preload is 3 to 4.5 turns out from coil bind for the three strings, as noted on the graph....
Bob
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I'm currently using a 2" x .360" diameter spring - I think its .045 or .047 wire...it is a 10# spring.
I also have a 1.5" 12# spring (same OD) that works incredibly well in my Challenger when tuned for pellets.
Thanks for the input Bob - I will play around with hammer weight.
The 2" spring and my 84 gram hammer had bounce - the 74 gram hammer wasted a bit of air...I will increase the weight of the current hammer I'm using (I haven't weighed it yet) in 5 gram increments and see what happens.
My Challenger works very well with the 1.5" spring left sloppy loose like you suggested - it only uses 15 psi per shot and is still shooting Kings @ 900 fps!
Maxed out the Kings do 1200 fps.
I'm trying to replicate that tune - the difference is I'm running a tapered spring inside the valve.
I need to order some of those you suggested for the Disco from Century and see how they work...it might be the perfect recipe with my current hammer assembly.
Mike
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With the MRod poppet, you should be able to run less spring, and it looks like you are.... My spring rate was 18.7 lb/in.... The smaller stem of the MRod poppet should require less hammer strike for the same dwell....
Bob
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I just want to say thanks.
I found this thread two nights ago and have been devouring the information. One of the coolest gun concepts I have ever seen!
The level of knowledge and information here is really amazing.
I have been looking at those thumbhole stocks on the discosrus site lately too and I think it's a great choice.
Like some others here have stated, wish I had a grand to dump on the MP because I'd do it for sure.
Nice work guys.
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Its definitely going to be an amazing rifle. I have one of the first 10 on order and am getting the shrouded version in .25 should be a hunting machine!
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I have been thinking, and this gun would be the coolest thing for a full night of coon hunting.
Man, how I wish I had a grand that didn't have to go towards college!
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Just start saving now! LOL.
I think I am going to need another barrel. I got the 25cal on the way but thinking about getting a .22 for the smaller critters. I know the shrouded 25cal will be quiet but a .22 would be super quiet and great for most little critters around here.
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Just start saving now! LOL.
I think I am going to need another barrel. I got the 25cal on the way but thinking about getting a .22 for the smaller critters. I know the shrouded 25cal will be quiet but a .22 would be super quiet and great for most little critters around here.
Instead of changing barrels for shooting "smaller critters", why not just use fewer pumps? Isn't that the point of a MSP? Seems to me the more you monkey around with a rifle that is shooting well, the more likely you're going to have issues with accuracy & always have to be readjusting, re-sighting in, wear & tear on screws & hardware, etc. Maybe it's just me, but once I get a rifle shooting right, I leave it alone & enjoy it's accuracy. Especially a custom built one.
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I would normally agree with you however These rifles are actually being built to switch calibers. You can buy the whole kit with .22 .25 and .30
the reason to switch to .22 is that it will be quieter and cheaper ammo and more shots before pumping.
Ultimately I am sure I will end up with 2 rifles but till then ill get a caliber conversion.
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Either method will work.... I can't imagine using a .30 cal and turning it down when shooting Starlings, but it certainly could be done.... The gun will react like a PCP to tuning, you can reduce the hammer strike and use a lower fill pressure to produce more shots at lower power with fewer and easier pumps per shot....
Bob
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I agree with you Bob it can be done either way.
Getting down to say 12fpe with a .25 jsb king comes in at 462fps that makes for a lot of bullet drop. Vs the .22 Crossman premier 14.3gr at 614fps
That was just an example I like around 850fps with the premiers out of my FX but it all depends on what the gun likes for accuracy.
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Yeah, c'mon you guys.... no way are you going to be happy with 600-700 fps when the gun will do 800-900.... *grin*.... You'll just grab another gun for plinking....
Bob
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Yeah, c'mon you guys.... no way are you going to be happy with 600-700 fps when the gun will do 800-900.... *grin*.... You'll just grab another gun for plinking....
Bob
:) :) yep
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And preferably one that doesn't need pumping LOL
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And preferably one that doesn't need pumping LOL
yep, pumpers aren't fun for plinking :)
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And preferably one that doesn't need pumping LOL
yep, pumpers aren't fun for plinking :)
And preferably one that doesn't need pumping LOL
That is probably why the MP is able to run on a tank too. ;D
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I knew that was coming :) Just remember to alternate pumping arms regularly so one doesn't get bigger that the other. I see a lot of pumping in the future :)
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(http://www.sharewallpapers.org/d/407251-1/2006+Lady+In+The+Water+040.jpg)
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Hey, if I had *my* way we would be shooting nuetron powered laser rifles! ;D
Mike
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Hey, if I had *my* way we would be shooting nuetron powered laser rifles! ;D
Mike
Hey, there's no fun in that...lol.
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I knew that was coming :) Just remember to alternate pumping arms regularly so one doesn't get bigger that the other. I see a lot of pumping in the future :)
I was going to say "When I pump with my left arm I pump like a girl!" but that would be politically incorrect and sexist.
Don't want to go there and offend the girls on this forum.
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I knew that was coming :) Just remember to alternate pumping arms regularly so one doesn't get bigger that the other. I see a lot of pumping in the future :)
I was going to say "When I pump with my left arm I pump like a girl!" but that would be politically incorrect and sexist.
Don't want to go there and offend the girls on this forum.
;) ;D I think that a few of the young ladies here are in much better physical condition than some of us old farts
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Went out shooting today and spent more time thinking about the Millennium Pumper than shooting ;-)
How's the testing coming?
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I received the trigger guards from Norm - they are polished aluminum :)
They bolt directly to the trigger block - the stocks are already inletted for them.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150301_130451228.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150301_130451228.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150301_164755_1.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150301_164755_1.jpg.html)
I am going to try some longer range testing tomorrow (finally!) with Kings and see how she does...then a complete tear down to replicate parts so we can get them out for anodizing Tues or Wed.
I will post group pics tomorrow some time.
Mike
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Ok guys, there's a new development with the Millennium barrel construction...they will be held in tension using something similar to Bobs Belleville assembly - the sleeves *will not* be permanently bonded.
We are doing something called *Viscous Dampening*
Its all Jim's Baby - he wants the most accurate air rifle in the World if its leaving his shop and refuses to permanently bond the cf sleeves to the barrels...he has assured me his system is the best *period*!
Bear with me folks, its going to be worthwhile! This is outside the box engineering but Jim already has done mountains of R&D on this system and it works better than any other type.
The harmonic vibrations are absolutely nullified.
I will post more details as we get into barrel construction - and I'll be sure to include lots of pics!
Mike
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Wonder if that can be put onto a Disco barrel pretty easily.
Joe
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Its all Jim's Baby - he wants the most accurate air rifle in the World if its leaving his shop and refuses to permanently bond the cf sleeves to the barrels...he has assured me his system is the best *period*!
...
The harmonic vibrations are absolutely nullified.
I will post more details as we get into barrel construction - and I'll be sure to include lots of pics!
Mike
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3582675/excellent.jpeg)
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I am wondering if the trigger guard will fit the Disco
Tom
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Sounds interesting, Mike.... Look forward to seeing the details.... If he's not using Bellevilles, how does he look after the different rates of expansion with temperature between CrMoly steel and Carbon Fibre?.... That's why I gave up on the idea of just torqueing to tension the barrel....
Bob
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I have to check with Jim before I disclose the process - he said I could tell you *Viscous Damping* for now.
Mike
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Of course....
Bob
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Converting vibration to low grade heat, I assume. It's a common technique for sound attenuation. I'm interested in hearing how it works out!
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We, of course, will test one before we build all the barrels that way.
Mike
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I been avoiding interjecting myself into the issue of a carbon-fiber barrel shroud.
Now, that the a Belleville Spring Washer system (http://www.airgunforum.ca/forums/post446961.html?sid=9828ae362650eb6e3ae2ee53efee77e6#p446961)will be employed to adjust
barrel tension ... here's my opinion.
First, I need to establish my credentials regarding the opinion I'm about to put forth.
I have an Associated of Applied Science Degree in Mechanical Engineering Technology.
And, an Associates of Applied Science Degree in Plastics.
That's right ... like in the movie "the Graduate" ... Plastics.
Carbon-fiber based composite materials are much stronger under tension and less-so under compression.
GRAPHLITE® carbon rods
(http://www.diversified-composites.com/rdtbshp.php?mid=6&aid=14)Continuous rigid composite rod densely reinforced with highly oriented carbon fiber in a cured epoxy resin matrix.
Tensile Strength 320 ksi / 2.34 GPa
Compressive Strength 270 ksi / 1.90 GPa
Advances in sizings and surface treatments for carbon fibers (http://www.compositesworld.com/articles/advances-in-sizings-and-surface-treatments-for-carbon-fibers)
(http://d2n4wb9orp1vta.cloudfront.net/resources/images/cdn/cms/table-393.gif)
However, this is true of virtually all other materials.
But, high-carbon steel should remain more stable under long-term compression loads versus most composite materials.
Why is this?
Because of the resin or binder agent associated with a composite material - the plastics element.
The purpose of the resin is to hold the shape of the carbon-fiber fabric.
And, to transfer any applied load to the fiber-matrix.
In the process of transmitting the applied load ... some flex, give or shift is involved.
Under a continuous load, the flex or give of the plastic resin persists until the fiber-matrix absorbs the stress.
My point, under continuous compression ... the resin continues to very gradually move, flex or give ... it
will not take a permanent immovable set.
Moreover, the rigidityof the plastic resin is not constant.
Factors such as temperature changes (high or low) effect plastic flow.
As I said before, under a continuous load, the resin may continue to move, ... but, at a varying rate depending on the ambient temperature.
On-the-other-hand, steel or other metallic materials tend to be more stable under compression and are less effected
by normal temperature variations.
I believe, for a thin-walled shroud to remain stable under continuous compression ... steel or other metallic material
would be a better choice for use as a barrel tensioning shroud.
However, a close-fitting carbon-fiber sleeve would give better service as an effective vibration damper.
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I can see your point about the CF composite moving under constant compression.... It will be interesting to see how much and how fast that occurs.... The nice thing about the Bellevilles is that I can back off the tension, counting the turns/degrees of rotation of the nut, until the pressure is released.... Comparing that to the original setting should give a measure of the amount of "set" the material takes, and how long it requires to do that.... It may be that the load needs to be backed off during storage.... CF composites are used a lot in yacht masts, which is where I cut my teeth in the technology, and of course in that use, they are nearly a pure compression member, all the tension loads are taken by the rigging.... So although they may be better in tension than compression, they certainly work well in both.... Otherwise, tubes in bend, such as fishing rods, and masts, would fail by buckling....
If taking a set becomes a problem, I can easily switch over to either CrMoly tubing or 6061-T6, both of which have nearly identical thermal coefficients.... The other disadvantage to the CF composite is that it is nearly thermally stable, compared to metal, which increases the need for the Bellevilles.... This tensioning idea using Bellevilles is still in it's infancy, I have a lot to learn about it.... So that we don't drag Mike's thread too far off course, perhaps you can comment in either the thread I started about this idea, or in my 7mm Build in the Big-Bore gate where I plan to put this idea to the test....
Bob
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I put my Center point 4-16x40 on the test rifle - I used UTG quick release rings that came with my Bug Buster scope.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150302_104651482.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150302_104651482.jpg.html)
I set up at 50 yards on the hood of my Jeep and shot a couple of groups...
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150302_102234293.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150302_102234293.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150302_102221917.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150302_102221917.jpg.html)
It wasn't the best rest as it was still a bit wobbly...The average at a lasered 50 yards was 1/2" - 3/4" with Kings.
This is just the barrel screwed into the breech - the groups were strung vertically and most had 3 pellets all touching then a couple high or low.
I'm going to have to wait until I get to my actual range with the rifle before I do anymore longer range testing.
Mike
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That's a nice looking rifle Mike.
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Thank you!
Wait until its all finished ;)
Mike
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It wasn't the best rest as it was still a bit wobbly...The average at a lasered 50 yards was 1/2" - 3/4" with Kings.
Mike, how about posting the targets ... I'd love to see them.
By the way, that's a very good-looking rifle - very purposeful appearing.
The combination of aluminum sheen, the contrasting carbon-fiber texture
and the various colors of the stock ... look great - very appealing to the eye.
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I measured groups, wrote down sizes and scrapped the targets - I still have my very first 50 yard group I shot and will post it later today. I don't want folks thinking this is how the final rifles will shoot.
I'm only collecting data before we work on the barrels to get a baseline so we can measure what our process did to improve accuracy - they still need to be lapped and sleeved + I need to draw up the new Belleville muzzle assembly and machine them.
If I get a good day without wind and time on the real range before we finish the barrels I will shoot it again the way it is.
I will post pics of proof targets once they are finalized.
The stocks are not finished yet and all aluminum parts need anodizing still...we still have a ways to go.
Mike
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Here's the first 50 yard group shot off the hood of my Jeep - Kings @ 905 fps @ 1800 psi.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150304_094506.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150304_094506.jpg.html)
I will post more groups as we prep the barrels...
Here's a pic of the action with the stock removed...
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150304_100249057_HDR.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150304_100249057_HDR.jpg.html)
Mike
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I put a trigger guard on to see how they look...
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150304_111732.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150304_111732.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150304_111656.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150304_111656.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150304_111623.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150304_111623.jpg.html)
They're polished but we are going to bead blast them and have them anodized.
Mike
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WOW THIS RIFLE... looks so good!!! i might have to start saving!
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I put my Center point 4-16x40 on the test rifle - I used UTG quick release rings that came with my Bug Buster scope.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150302_104651482.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150302_104651482.jpg.html)
I set up at 50 yards on the hood of my Jeep and shot a couple of groups...
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150302_102234293.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150302_102234293.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150302_102221917.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150302_102221917.jpg.html)
It wasn't the best rest as it was still a bit wobbly...The average at a lasered 50 yards was 1/2" - 3/4" with Kings.
This is just the barrel screwed into the breech - the groups were strung vertically and most had 3 pellets all touching then a couple high or low.
I'm going to have to wait until I get to my actual range with the rifle before I do anymore longer range testing.
Mike
Mike, a black YJ we have the same taste :) :)
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By the Way, that rifle is looking real good.
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I sure wish I hadn't got laid off just before x mas . That sure set me back. I will have one at one point . Keep posting more porn/pics . Beautiful.....
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I put a trigger guard on to see how they look ...
They're polished but we are going to bead blast them and have them anodized.
Just finished looking at the enlarged images ... good-looking rifle.
The three control knobs ... quietly say, "this rifle is something special."
Somebody put a lot of thought into the layout of this air rifle.
Somewhere I remember reading, something to the effect ... "the sum of disparate parts" ... looking better than it ought.
Everything is pure function ... not much of an effort to stylize this air gun that I can see.
Other than the carbon-fiber shroud ... carbon-fiber can't help the way it looks. ;)
But, everything ... appears ... to come-together so well.
Much better than I thought it would.
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Stocks, Stocks & More Stocks!!!
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150311_114820871.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150311_114820871.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150311_114807820.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150311_114807820.jpg.html)
These are all Millennium stocks except for my Challenger stock and one powder burner stock...we are getting closer guys!
Those of you waiting on guns I appreciate your patience - I promise you won't be disappointed when we finally ship this first batch out. ;)
Mike
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Beautiful! love the variety to, should have a pretty good selection of what's
available to be able to show pics of 8)
Joseph
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Are these still being made? If so how much are they these days?
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Are these still being made? If so how much are they these days?
Here you go:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=79114.0 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=79114.0)
Joseph
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Are these still being made? If so how much are they these days?
They will be soon once he quits his day job and gets serious, many here are waiting to place orders for the second batch to be built ;) Actually the rifles are a joint effort and are coming together nicely I plan on placing my order very soon for a 30 caliber model
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I will test .22 & .30 as soon as those barrels are prepped for a Master Hunter package.
I already had to start a waiting list for batch #2 so if anybody is serious about getting one you better e mail me your information or you'll miss out on the 2nd run!
Mike
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WOW!! Looking at all the stocks laid out on the table that way made me realize why I needed that vacation!! LOL
Looking good Mike
Norm
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HAHAHA! You deserved it Norm!!!
The trigger guards you sent are awesome :)
FYI - All of the test rifle pics are YOUR personal stock Norm!!!
:)
Mike
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Looks like I am gonna have to save up a bit. Also is there an option for iron sights? Have you thought of using a synthetic stock with actual AR hardware for the pistol grip and buttstock? You could even ship it without the grip and buttstock to cut down on price.
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At this point with all of the time that I've spent on drawings and finalizing everything I'm not shipping anything out of our shop that isn't complete.
This is a full custom rifle and what we are producing - machine time is already limited right now and our focus is producing a complete rifle.
Mike
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Ok I'm hooked but I'm from the UK so I need it in under 12flb. For rabbits and squirrels I would prefer .20 the blue stock would be fine. And remember it cannot go over 12flb no matter what weight of pellets you use. Ok ok it's a dream we can all dream. I collect pumpers and I will put this on the top of my I wish list. Fantastic work guys beautiful Rifle.
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We got the fixture for the mill built so we can inlet for the breech band, side cocking slot area and where the Foster quick connect goes.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150314_102717975.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150314_102717975.jpg.html)
Mike
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This rifle is a dream come true I can hardly wait for mine to arrive! Every time I go shooting I think of this gun! I saw my first ground squirrel at my house today so the targets are starting to come out! :)
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That makes 2 of us!
The squirrels are popping up early here due to a mild winter...they usually dont show until mid April or so.
I want to scope can some .25 cal Wicked Monster kills along with some .30 cal mayhem!!!
They're coming gentlemen...they're coming!!!
:)
Mike
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I can definitely get some scope cam action for the .25 cal rifle! :)
-
What is the biggest caliber you guys are offering this in?
Nevermind, saw that it is .30
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I wanted to also offer .357 and everything in the top end was designed for it but there's just not enough volume to give it the power I'm interested in - it would be more of a curiosity.
The .30 cal offering ought to be just fine though!
Mike
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I'd rather use some RS slugs in .25 over getting a .30
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I'm working on stocks...the nutmeg & camo have 2 coats the sky only base a base coat.
They'll get 4-5 coats total.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150320_121214315.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150320_121214315.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150320_121255989.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150320_121255989.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150320_121325550.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150320_121325550.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150320_121344128.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150320_121344128.jpg.html)
Mike
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Is that blue one mine or yours? They all look great!
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That one's mine :) Yours is next on deck.
Mike
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These rifles are going to look amazing!
-
Ok I'm hooked but I'm from the UK so I need it in under 12flb. For rabbits and squirrels I would prefer .20 the blue stock would be fine. And remember it cannot go over 12flb no matter what weight of pellets you use. Ok ok it's a dream we can all dream. I collect pumpers and I will put this on the top of my I wish list. Fantastic work guys beautiful Rifle.
Then dont bother getting one. Really you would be wasting your money. Get an older 392 or Crosman 140.
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Then dont bother getting one. Really you would be wasting your money. Get an older 392 or Crosman 140.
How many shots per fill does a 392 get?....
Does it have a magazine?
How good is its trigger?
Can it comes shrouded?
Does it come with a stock color
of your choosing?
not to mention second kind of cool.
(sorry if that comes across accusing like)
But you are getting a lot for your money no matter what power level you get.
Joseph
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Then dont bother getting one. Really you would be wasting your money. Get an older 392 or Crosman 140.
How many shots per fill does a 392 get?....
Does it have a magazine?
How good is its trigger?
Can it comes shrouded?
Does it come with a stock color
of your choosing?
not to mention second kind of cool.
(sorry if that comes across accusing like)
But you are getting a lot for your money no matter what power level you get.
Joseph
A 392 is a pumper. Its one shot then you pump it a few times.
No mag, thats what you have pockets for.
The trigger is good and can be tweaked pretty easily.
There are shrouds available for it, although no point as they are really quiet.
Stock color is wood, and it looks good to most people.
You get a lot for your money with a 392.
Look up the Steroid Tuned 392 by Mac1. But make sure you get an older one as I suspect you are not in the US and you dont want to bother with shipping if you buy a new one and it is not good.
And dont look past that Crosman 140/1400 either.
-
Is this a 392 thread? How about we stay focused on the Millennium pumper and it's merits. The great thing about this forum is how easily a new post can be made to discuss rifles of your own liking.
-
Can't even compare the 2 guns, .....not even in the same planet :) :)
-
Then dont bother getting one. Really you would be wasting your money. Get an older 392 or Crosman 140.
Well I have a Bluestreak A 101 and 2 140's but we can always wish for more. I collect therefore I want MORE!!.
-
OK everyone let's keep to the OP's Main Topic about the Millennium Pumper as things have drifted a little bit
Norm
-
Well, the Century Spring #TA-2281 is a perfect fit for the Disco valve using an Mrod poppet.
The fit over the head of the stem is spot on and so is how it seats against the valve cap threads.
There's about 1/8" of preload when you screw the cap in place.
The stem resistance is only half or less of what the factory valve spring is.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150324_092255788.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150324_092255788.jpg.html)
Mike
-
Well, the Century Spring #TA-2281 is a perfect fit for the Disco valve using an Mrod poppet.
The fit over the head of the stem is spot on and so is how it seats against the valve cap threads.
There's about 1/8" of preload when you screw the cap in place.
The stem resistance is only half or less of what the factory valve spring is.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150324_092255788.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150324_092255788.jpg.html)
Mike
Looking nice...when will they be coming to us?
Joe
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Viscous dampening... I like that!
Very nice project Mike!
way to go Bob!
Walter
-
Is there a way to get a full on synthetic tactical stock that uses an actual AR pistol grip and an AR collapsible buttstock? A rail system would be nice, but not necessary as long as there are metal sights (not fiber optic as they tend to cover the target) and dove tail. A rail system on the bottom to mount a pistol grip or 45 degree grip would be awesome.
Ergonomics increases accuracy.
-
I have one of these stocks and have AR's as well and I don't think the ergonomics on the ar are any better. you would also end up with a lot of extra weight. I know at this point he has already answered this question before and said that he was not making an ar style stock for these.
-
I have one of these stocks and have AR's as well and I don't think the ergonomics on the ar are any better. you would also end up with a lot of extra weight. I know at this point he has already answered this question before and said that he was not making an ar style stock for these.
Ergonomics is a personal thing. I dont think there would be any extra weight. But maybe one day if there is enough demand for it. Or I get rich and have a custom stock made.
-
I have one of these stocks and have AR's as well and I don't think the ergonomics on the ar are any better. you would also end up with a lot of extra weight. I know at this point he has already answered this question before and said that he was not making an ar style stock for these.
Ergonomics is a personal thing. I dont think there would be any extra weight. But maybe one day if there is enough demand for it. Or I get rich and have a custom stock made.
AR15s are good for combat style shooting, and adding white lights, IR illuminators, lasers, and other attachments which are completely useless on a multi stroke pneumatic. Ergonomics means it fits your body, not the ability to attack a bunch of needless accessories. Maybe you meant modularity? And even so, there's little use for that on an Airgun other then for novelty's sake.
-
AR15s are good for combat style shooting, and adding white lights, IR illuminators, lasers, and other attachments which are completely useless on a multi stroke pneumatic. Ergonomics means it fits your body, not the ability to attack a bunch of needless accessories. Maybe you meant modularity? And even so, there's little use for that on an Airgun other then for novelty's sake.
[/quote]
No, I mean ergonomics. Adjustable buttstocks, cheekwells and forgrips and pistol grips all aid in shooter comfort. And comfort = accuracy.
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I'm only offering these rifles with a Blaster stock at this time...end of discussion.
Mike
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Its amazing what a few coats will do to these stocks...
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150327_105549156.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150327_105549156.jpg.html)
Here's an idea of before & after...the only exception is the other Sky colored stock - mine had darker blue/black than the unfinished one, but you can see how much the color pops out when coated!
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150327_105243129.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150327_105243129.jpg.html)
We had to weld a rack to hang the stocks from for finishing - now I can get them all done at once. I can only apply 1 coat a day so its 5 days or so before all the stocks will be finished.
Mike
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No Text
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Looking good :D
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What finish are you coating the stocks with?
My wife wants me to put a durable coating on our kitchen table. I figured a coating on a stock should be pretty durable.
Thanks - -
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Minwax Wipe On Polyurethane.
Mike
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What happened?
Do we have a gun that will shoot decent groups yet or are we still trying to get there?
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(http://d2ws0xxnnorfdo.cloudfront.net/meme/348647)
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What happened?
Do we have a gun that will shoot decent groups yet or are we still trying to get there?
dyotat100 ... did you miss the previous posts depicting trial-shots from a Millenium Pumper?
This is 5 shots @ 15 yards to get a baseline before cf sleeving.
I will also be developing Millennium specific slugs - the group dispersion of my slugs is clearly barrel harmonics.
Scope is a simple 4x Bug Buster and the bench was wobbly - we are building a concrete 50 yard shooting test range right now on Jim's property.
More to come in a few days...I'm finally shooting *Our* prototype!!! ;D
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150222_110716519.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150222_110716519.jpg.html)
I put my Center point 4-16x40 on the test rifle - I used UTG quick release rings that came with my Bug Buster scope.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150302_102234293.jpg)
I set up at 50 yards on the hood of my Jeep and shot a couple of groups...
It wasn't the best rest as it was still a bit wobbly...The average at a lasered 50 yards was 1/2" - 3/4" with Kings.
This is just the barrel screwed into the breech - the groups were strung vertically and most had 3 pellets all touching then a couple high or low.
I'm going to have to wait until I get to my actual range with the rifle before I do anymore longer range testing..
That's sub-nickel size at 50-yds while generating 46fpe ... I would think that's a good starting point for .25 caliber hunting rifle.
As is, 1 1/2 MOA would be more that adequate for my intended purposes.
Coupled with a quiet discharge ... and, I'd be set-to-go.
Here's the first 50 yard group shot off the hood of my Jeep - Kings @ 905 fps @ 1800 psi.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150304_094506.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150304_094506.jpg.html)
I will post more groups as we prep the barrels...
I would think, things will only get better with a little more time spent on development.
Moreover, the barrel dampening system employing a "Belleville assembly" and "Viscous Dampening" ... may take more time
than originally anticipated to sort-out.
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That group is at least quarter size and I guarantee it was the best one out of all the groups. That was over a month ago also.
Also that is tethered. I can see all kinds of problems with pumping and POI shifts.
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Mods, I would appreciate you moving this entire thread to my Vendor Gate.
Thanks!
Mike
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No comment huh
I guess we are having problems. Not here to criticize. I have kept my comments to myself this whole time.
Usually someone builds a gun test and works out all the bugs. Then test it more. Then have someone else test it.
This thing went straight into production. I know if I paid for one I wouldn't want it to be in the trying to figure thinks out stage.
A gun at this price should shoot 50 yd 5 shot groups that a dime covers.
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That group is at least quarter size and I guarantee it was the best one out of all the groups.
dyotat100, you make a valid observation.
The group in the image might be approaching a quarter (.955-in.) vs a nickel (.835-in.)
However, I was referring to Mike's quote - not the photo.
In a hunting situation ... the difference between a nickel and a quarter in accuracy at 50-yds.
I don't think would make any difference at all in the field - at least not from my shooting/hunting experience.
What is apparent ... more trial shooting and tweaking are needed - this takes time.
Any person familiar with product design/engineering, testing/development and manufacturing/production would anticipate as such.
And, would appreciate as much during final product development .
I have a background in Engineering, Manufacturing and Machining - I'm not surprised.
Mike needs more time to dial-in the Millenium Pumper ... some patience would be in-order.
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We are still developing our complete upper...I haven't done anymore testing since those groups were shot...that was *only* with the barrel screwed into the breech.
We still have sleeving & dampening + front band testing.
My 1:22 twist is shooting 1/2 MOA or better with my new slug and this gun will get tested with the new slug when I have one put back together.
Sure its been over a month - you of all people should know the time that gets eaten up on production when you have a full time job + another company to run...and I don't own the machine shop doing my work for me.
I have plenty of comments and have no problems answering questions but I'm too busy to spend my time putting somebody's mind at ease that #1: hasn't purchased a Millennium & #2: posts things that try to indicate some type of bash on my integrity in what I posted.
I refuse to chase my tail answering your questions until they become more respectful.
Other than that I will post more details as I have them.
Have a nice day.
Mike
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That group is at least quarter size and I guarantee it was the best one out of all the groups.
dyotat100, you make a valid observation.
The group in the image might be approaching a quarter (.955-in.) vs a nickel (.835-in.)
However, I was referring to Mike's quote - not the photo.
In a hunting situation ... the difference between a nickel and a quarter in accuracy at 50-yds
I don't think would make any difference at all in the field - at least from my shooting/hunting experience.
What is apparent ... more trial shooting and tweaking are needed - this takes time.
Any person familiar with product design/engineering, testing/development and production would anticipate as such
and appreciate as much during final product development .
I have a background in Engineering, Manufacturing and Machining - I'm not surprised.
Mike needs more time to dial-in the Millenium Pumper ... some patience would be in-order.
I understand things take time. Usually when someone sells a gun there is a working gun that all of the "figuring" out is done.
Instead guns have been paid for and things are still being worked out. I know I wouldn't be happy if I paid for one and things were still trying to be figured out. These guns were suppose to be done a while ago.
I think the biggest issue is going to be with POI when pumping the gun. I have a Sheridan with steroid kit and I hold the barrel at the sight to pump it.
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So other than bashing me because they haven't shipped yet what exactly is your point?
Mike
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Everything is bashing to you.
I'm just stating the facts and I guess that's bashing to you.
You should have produced a working gun first instead of talking so much about it.
Wondering if Cedric will ever see those slugs you were so anxious to get to him 8+ months ago.
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That group is at least quarter size and I guarantee it was the best one out of all the groups.
dyotat100, you make a valid observation.
The group in the image might be approaching a quarter (.955-in.) vs a nickel (.835-in.)
However, I was referring to Mike's quote - not the photo.
In a hunting situation ... the difference between a nickel and a quarter in accuracy at 50-yds
I don't think would make any difference at all in the field - at least from my shooting/hunting experience.
What is apparent ... more trial shooting and tweaking are needed - this takes time.
Any person familiar with product design/engineering, testing/development and production would anticipate as such
and appreciate as much during final product development .
I have a background in Engineering, Manufacturing and Machining - I'm not surprised.
Mike needs more time to dial-in the Millenium Pumper ... some patience would be in-order.
I understand things take time. Usually when someone sells a gun there is a working gun that all of the "figuring" out is done.
Instead guns have been paid for and things are still being worked out. I know I wouldn't be happy if I paid for one and things were still trying to be figured out. These guns were suppose to be done a while ago.
I think the biggest issue is going to be with POI when pumping the gun. I have a Sheridan with steroid kit and I hold the barrel at the sight to pump it.
In my opinion, you have a narrow view of how product development works and are being a twit because this particular airgun is not following your script.
Those who have expressed an interest and/or ordered a gun have all the facts in hand that you do. If that is adequate for them, great. If it isn't for you, no problem.
The amount of information and disclosure being provided, for better or worse, is very extensive. No need for you to be everyone's nanny about it.
R
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Yeah its usually developed before it's paid for and there is a working gun.
I build guns and know all about it. I take money when they are done.
I don't see FX talking money on a gun and then start building it. Then once build have to work out why it's not shooting good enough.
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Thats enough gentlemen. David
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dyotat100 you are treading on very thin ice please keep you comments less provocative your mailbox is full and this message would have been a PM otherwise
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Usually when someone sells a gun there is a working gun that all of the "figuring" out is done.
dyotat100, the Millennium Pumper design was initially the work of rsterne.
When Mike stepped-in ... it wasn't from ground-zero.
Please take the time the read the following thread - including the link(s).
This will help you up-to-speed on the background of the Millennium Pumper.
Bobs Millennium Pumper is being produced! :) (http://www.network54.com/Forum/275684/message/1413504952/)View Thread (http://www.network54.com/Forum/275684/thread/1413504952) on Oct 16, 2014 6:15 PM
Moreover, I ... for one ... knew Mike's endeavor to bring to market a finished adult-quality Pumper would not be a simple one.
There is no other custom-made or factory-production pumper being manufactured by any company or person that approaches
all of the included features of the Millennium Pumper ... other than what Mike is doing.
As such, kudos go to him for taking-on the challenge.
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I'm done. I can't comment anymore
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I appreciate the patience of the first 10 buyers - believe me *I* want to ship these out!
I bought one too...just because you're the one making them doesn't mean they're any less expensive.
The powerplant was easy as Bob did all of the R&D on that portion.
I blended both of his prototypes into this rifle.
Our top end is what is setting this rifle apart from anything else available...I could've slapped a factory breech on it and called it a day but I want this rifle to be something special that can be handed down for generations.
There's been extensive R&D and prototyping going into the top end and I assure you the rifles will be perfect when they ship out.
Without the first 10 buyers this project wouldn't have happened.
On top of having one of the first 10 ever produced they will also know that they were a part of something special and meaningful to the airgun community that wouldn't have happened without their support and patience.
I assure all of my buyers you will *not* be disappointed when you take yours out of the box and shoot it!
All of the parts are done except anodizing...we're waiting on our media tumblers to be delivered to tumble the aluminum parts before bead blasting and sending them out. They've been on backorder for 3 weeks and are expected to ship April 10.
We also bought a honing machine for the pressure tubes...just another step we didn't need to do but we are doing it...that was an expensive piece of equipment.
Jim & myself have an insane amount of time and money into this project and probably won't make a single penny for the first 50+ rifles...but we're starting a joint gun manufacturing company and the Millennium is just the beginning of some crazy things we will be offering to airgunners.
More to come on that when it's time...
I'm on vacation the week of April 12 and I will be in the machine shop full time...I will be posting pics and updates just as I have been since this started.
Thanks everybody!
Mike
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In hindsight, to both make a quick buck and quell his critics, Mike could have simply produced the second version of my Millennium Pumper.... it was already a sorted, working rifle, with three shots at 40 FPE in .25 cal.... Instead of taking the easy way out, and with my encouragement, Mike blended the final version of the Carbine with it (to increase air capacity), and came up with an original repeater breech design.... He asked me about additional calibers, and after giving that some thought, instead of using the valve I had at that time, I suggested that he upgrade to what I have done since, with bigger ports, and at the last minute he then incorporated the MRod poppet, which I had thought about but never used.... The result is what he called the "Millennium" valve, and he has already delivered the first 20, in addition to those made for the Pumpers....
All of these things take time, and money.... Frankly, I was surprised (and delighted) when 10 guys stepped up to the plate, money in hand, knowing what they were getting into.... but probably not expecting it to take as long as it has.... I have offered Mike as much free advice and encouragement as I can along the way, and have watched the project grow from a simple copy of my prototype to something much more capable.... I for one, wish Mike and Jim all possible success in this, and any future endeavours.... I truly feel that those guys who have put their money where their mouth is, will not be disappointed....Being a critic when you don't have any skin in the game, has no point....
Bob
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Being a critic when you don't have any skin in the game, has no point....
Excellent point rsterne ... well said.
Where have I heard? "Quality takes time, Excellence takes a little longer"
Mike, thanks for keeping us posted - it is much appreciated.
And, thanks to dyotat100 for ... albeit unwittingly ... being particularly responsible for precipitating a timely update.
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I will say as someone who has put up money for this gun that I'm full of lots of emotions. I'm excited, frustrated, and everything in between.
The gun seems like it it will be the gun I've always wished someone would make so I was willing to take a risk. Bob did a great job with the prototype and this has potential to be even better.
To me, the most disappointing has been the lack of clear communication. I check this post everyday. There are lots of times when Mike says that he will update with more information and then nothing happens. I know life gets in the way but for me all I need is a short update. I would rather know that nothing has been done in the last week because of work or whatever rather than silence. On 11/18/2014 I was told delivery time should be 3-4 weeks. I've not complained but it's bothered me that there has been no real communication. That time rolled by and then it was going to be the end of February. We've gone through that and now? \
Don't get me wrong, I would rather have it done right than on-time. However, I would just like more updates to see that things are moving forward.
Combine that with the fact that the first performance numbers don't match the prototype and I was a little frustrated and disappointed. In the end I have no doubt that it will all work out and I'll be happy.
I see both sides of this argument and I'm not sure there is a correct one. I think it all boils down to perspective.
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I knew when I put my money in (yay #3 -- almost had #2 which I hoped for), that it'd probably be a long wait. I'm more than ok with that since talking with Mike on the phone, I want a product that I'll be proud to own and show off.
And if it's helping the airgun community to bring something like this to the market... all the better. Makes it feel like a kickstarter. ;)
I do understand where dyotat100 is coming from, but speaking for myself as one of the 10 people who put their money down, I actually appreciate that Mike is taking the additional time to make this rifle something special. Development may be going into overtime, but I was expecting that.
So Mike... just keep posting pics and keep us in the loop how things progress. ;D I'm always eager to see this thread updated with new info. I'm hoping you can get the rifle dialed in for both the .25 JSB heavies and your Wicked Monster Hollowpoints. Shooting 1" spinners at 100 yards is what I plan on doing with the rifle. ;)
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I do not know dyotat100, or what his past contributions to the community may have been. But it is clear to me that his recent comments in this thread are designed to disparage CarsonRatSniper.
There may be a personal animosity here, or simply professional jealousy. I do not know. But his comments seem to be deliberately designed to create dissension among an otherwise friendly, committed and genuine group of dedicated airgunners.
I am happy to see the less vocal majority continue to support CarsonRatSniper and his efforts to further the idea of what a pump-up pneumatic can be. His resources do not match those of Crosman or FX, and without the trust and support of the initial (10) investors, this remarkable endeavour would not be happening. I am proud to be a small part of this effort.
Respectfully...................... Frank Zuccarini
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Thanks guys...again, I apologize for the delays - I will post updates at least weekly regardless of what they are.
I will have daily progress reports the week of April 12 with update photos each day of where we're at.
Another change we made to the barrel system is incorporating Bobs Belleville muzzle system - that along with our viscous dampening vs permanently bonding the sleeve to the barrel will make the upper a truly unique system of removing harmonic vibration.
All Teflon transfer ports will be made at .219" to match the valve exhaust port.
.22 caliber will get a 9/64" barrel port, .25 caliber will get a .219" oval port like I did on my Challenger and .30 caliber will get a .219" port as well.
I still need to test with the new tapered valve spring - the Mrod poppet with the factory valve spring made quite a difference in performance vs the Disco poppet and factory valve spring.
I will also make a carbide spring guide jnsert to add weight to the hammer assembly if its just too light to hit the numbers I am looking for (which is 65+ ft lbs).
The reason for not just using a heavy hammer is for the ability to detune the gun further back than just backing off the preload on the RVA...if you remove the carbide spring guide from the assembly it will make it easy to tune it down to 30 ft lbs if you just want to plink with pellets.
More to come shortly...
Mike
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I do not know dyotat100, or what his past contributions to the community may have been. But it is clear to me that his recent comments in this thread are designed to disparage CarsonRatSniper.
There may be a personal animosity here, or simply professional jealousy. I do not know. But his comments seem to be deliberately designed to create dissension among an otherwise friendly, committed and genuine group of dedicated airgunners.
I am happy to see the less vocal majority continue to support CarsonRatSniper and his efforts to further the idea of what a pump-up pneumatic can be. His resources do not match those of Crosman or FX, and without the trust and support of the initial (10) investors, this remarkable endeavour would not be happening. I am proud to be a small part of this effort.
Respectfully...................... Frank Zuccarini
He's a great machinist, and builds rifles that accurately and quietly shoot out to 300 yards. He pushes the envelope of AF rifles, and in general a pretty good guy. If anyone is going to get a new RL airforce valve, Dyotat designed it. Anyone enjoy a .257 condor? Dyotat was the first to build a really high power one... I don't see what everyone is getting upset about. He's just bringing up valid points- if we can't take constructive criticism to improve ourselves, what kind of adults are we?!
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I think the important thing to remember is that this is a ground up project and its not like a company with thousands and thousands of dollars just making a new model.
Without our support as the first 10 buyers this would not have happened. Yes I am bummed we dont have rifles yet but I am happy to wait for perfection and i know that's what I will get.
I have worked machining gun parts for years and making this gun work takes time sometimes more time then we think it will. That's life.
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And don't forget, he makes some pretty dang good pellets on the side.
ob
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Our tumblers were delivered this morning so all of the aluminum parts can be prepped for anodizing - they should go out mid week and I was told it would be a one week turnaround.
Next week I'm finishing the rest of the stocks...here's how the first ones turned out
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150406_101849606.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150406_101849606.jpg.html)
Now that we welded up a stock rack I can work on 12 stocks at a time instead of 3.
We're getting closer!
Mike
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Woah. That blue stock is gorgeous Mike!
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Thanks! ;D
They're all getting 5 coats of poly. After we build a spray booth and buy a spray gun we will move to an industrial stock finishing process...they're being hand finished for now.
Mike
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Wow Mike things are looking very good. Anxious to see the finished product as I am sure you are two.
Norm
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Absolutely beautiful.
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That's your camo stock Norm...I hope its shiny enough for you! LOL
Mike
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Definitely glad I went with the blue stock! Glad the tumblers came in. I know how frustrating it can be waiting on tools.
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I got them all prepped, hung & 1st coat applied this morning...I am packing slug orders, shipping them then going back this evening to apply a 2nd coat.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150407_101223888.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150407_101223888.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150407_125320502.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150407_125320502.jpg.html)
Only 1 customer wanted to finish his own stock...you can *really* see the difference in how the finish brings the colors to life!
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150407_125642228.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150407_125642228.jpg.html)
Mike
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OHH they are some nice lookers so far! I'm so bummed at myself for not getting in on one of these!
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Ooooh.. I see my name on the nutmeg stock ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Looking good. Thank you for the updates.
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Very nice looking stocks. Did you do any in a satin finish?
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Yep Larry, that ones yours! :)
Only 2 wanted Satin...one is A.O. Martinez (Pepper) and the other is the 2nd Camo stock (straight cut forearm) going to The Netherlands.
:)
Mike
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Only 2 wanted Satin...one is A.O. Martinez (Pepper) ....
Satin for me ... my Millennium Pumper is gonna be dedicated to the role of urban pest control.
As such, no flash, no bling, everything subdued and quiet.
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All exterior aluminum parts will be anodized black...if somebody wants sealed clear aluminum I can do that but they'll have to pay for the lot charge from the anodizing company.
I took my blue stock outside and took a pic in the sunlight to show off the colors...I also put the cf shroud next to it so you can get an idea of how the shrouded versions will look next to the stock.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150408_113549.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150408_113549.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150408_113657.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150408_113657.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150408_110542061.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150408_110542061.jpg.html)
I'm finishing stocks today & tomorrow morning...I'll update pics of them when they're completed.
I'm shooting in a 1000 yard match Sat April 18...if I can pull it off the prizes are brand new Nightforce scopes! That'd sure look good on my Millennium! ;D
Mike
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Mike, what gun are you using in the 1000 yd match?
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My USMC M40A3 with a US Optics SN-3 scope ;D
Mike
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My USMC M40A3 with a US Optics SN-3 scope ;D
Mike
Okay. I did not think it was an airgun ;D ;D Good luck!!
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LOL
When I can get an air rifle to shoot a 175 grain Sierra Match King @ 2765 fps *then* I'll use an air rifle!!!
Mike
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LOL
When I can get an air rifle to shoot a 175 grain Sierra Match King @ 2765 fps *then* I'll use an air rifle!!!
Mike
What size 5 shot groups at 1000 yds or are you shooting 3 shot groups? I shot 5 inside 8" at 1000 at the West Point range about 25 years ago on a $100 bet and never told the guy I bet that I pulled it out of my keister Ruger M77 heavy barrel 7mm Remington Magnum . and I doubt I could have done it a second time but the planets aligned on that Saturday. ;D ;D
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Its not your standard match...it has to be an Idaho legal hunting rifle (max weight of 16 lbs with all accessories, unloaded).
There's a Small Game & Big Game course of fire - 24 targets at marked yardages on each course of fire. You get 2 shots at each target (unless.you score a first round hit)
The Small Game course of fire goes out to 600 yards and I believe has a .308 Win caliber maximum.
The Big Game course of fire goes out to 1200 yards...there's going to be a whole fleet of 6.5x284's out there.
If I just make a showing with my wee little .308 Win I'll be a happy camper.
There's also a 1 mile shoot (1760 yards) - $5 for 3 shots.
That'll be.fun! Corialis, Spin drift & even what cardinal direction you're facing.
My bullets flight time at that distance is 4.62 seconds!!! That's a whole bunch of earth rotation in that time frame.
All of the targets are steel plates - you just need a hit not a measured group so it keeps it *fun* LOL
No mechanical rests - you have to use whatever you'd have hunting...bipod, shooting sticks or use your backpack as a rest (which is what I'll do).
My M40A3 weighs 15lbs 14oz without the bipod and makes weight by 2oz.
It shoots 1/8 MOA...much better than I can hold. The first group ever shot out if the rifle was by Sean Carlock of Defensive Edge Technologies (he built the rifle off of the Quantico plans) was with factory Fed Gold Match 175 SMK's and a 3 shot group @ 300 meters measured 3/8" ;D
Hopefully my $7000 deployment package will win me a new Nightforce scope!
My handloads have an extreme spread of 1.8 fps and a MV of 2765 fps with 175 SMK's out of my 27" barrel.
I know.guys, this is *off topic* but let's face it - our air guns are how we can train inexpensively!
Most of my air guns replicate one of my powder burners just for training purposes.
Training = Sight picture, Breathing, Stance, Grip, Trigger Press & Follow Through.
I don't care if you shoot a rubber band gun - the principles are still the same.
;)
Mike
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Be interesting to scale that match down to airgunable ranges.
176 yards ought to be doable in the flight time the 308 takes for a mile .
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;D I like it I had a very customized M1A1 Garrand 30-06 that I competed with at a few matches back in the 70's but not in the same league with your .308 I had about $1,800 invested in it and shot with open sights in competition. My one buddy in the USAR set it up for me Sold it 2 years ago for $3,000 and the guy that bought it was doing a happy dance the first time he shot the rifle. My AG's allow me to shoot year round and cheaper ammo
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I agree with you Ratty!!! Any firing weapon is making you memory shooting and 30 ft or 30 miles are the same principal..
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Ok...the stocks are all finished - some are still drying from the final coat this morning.
Here's a Satin Pepper stock next to mine
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150409_112056873_HDR.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150409_112056873_HDR.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150409_112117029.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150409_112117029.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150409_112136027.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150409_112136027.jpg.html)
Here's a Satin Camo between 2 Gloss stocks
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150409_112201740.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150409_112201740.jpg.html)
Here's the stocks that are still drying
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150409_112353721.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150409_112353721.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150409_112529471.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150409_112529471.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150409_112703956.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150409_112703956.jpg.html)
More to come!
:)
Mike
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factory Fed Gold Match 175 SMK's and a 3 shot group @ 300 meters measured 3/8" ;D
Hopefully my $7000 deployment package will win me a new Nightforce scope!
My handloads have an extreme spread of 1.8 fps and a MV of 2765 fps with 175 SMK's out of my 27" barrel.
our air guns are how we can train inexpensively!
Most of my air guns replicate one of my powder burners just for training purposes.
Training = Sight picture, Breathing, Stance, Grip, Trigger Press & Follow Through.
I don't care if you shoot a rubber band gun - the principles are still the same.
;)
Mike
Sorry, of top with you, but gotta ask..
Love those Gold Match rounds.. What powder and charge in gr? Savage .308 Mod 10 Tac. 28" H-Bar Bedded 10x42 Super Sniper.. Prob My Fav PB I got.
Shooting AG has made My PB rifle skills improve dramatically when I started to get serious with AG..
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That next to last stock with the reddish brown color is really nice. Very sharp.
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Here's a Satin Pepper stock next to mine
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150409_112056873_HDR.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150409_112056873_HDR.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150409_112117029.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150409_112117029.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150409_112136027.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150409_112136027.jpg.html)
Here's a Satin Camo between 2 Gloss stocks
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150409_112201740.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150409_112201740.jpg.html)
Sure do like a stain finish on a working rifle.
Certainly not nearly as pretty as the glossy finish ... glossy looks great - for a presentation rifle.
But, for a hunter ... for me, satin makes more sense.
Mike, thanks for posting photos of the satin stocks.
By the way, the satin camo ... that does look good - very nice combination of colors.
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Very cool.... *grin*.... I like !!!
Bob
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Hi Mike
Just had to finally say wow Job well done
Tom
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Thanks! :)
I duplicated the FGM 175 round using Lake City primed 7.62x54 brass and a max load of Varget. I used my comparator to seat the bullets to the ogive the exact same as the factory FGM round then used a Lee Factory Crimp Die to put a medium crimp on it.
The round has about a 10% compaction.
Sorry, but I'm not posting how many grains I used for liability purposes.
Mike
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What's nice about the gloss is if you decide you do not like it just using a piece of 0000 steelwool with some MinWax wood polish and you will have the nicest satin finish you have ever seen.
Mike things are looking up!
Norm
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Thanks! :)
I duplicated the FGM 175 round using Lake City primed 7.62x54 brass and a max load of Varget. I used my comparator to seat the bullets to the ogive the exact same as the factory FGM round then used a Lee Factory Crimp Die to put a medium crimp on it.
The round has about a 10% compaction.
Sorry, but I'm not posting how many grains I used for liability purposes.
Mike
Hey Thanks! Been using the Varget.. Will try..
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Mike I absolutely love how my stock turned out couldn't have asked for anything better.
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:)
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Here's a front barrel band - The pivot pins will be shortened so they *do not* extend beyond the sides of the pump tube and the holes will be reamed for a slip fit of the pivot pins... The front band will slide back and cover the pin hole so it will retain the pin and prevent it from walking sideways.
We did this for easy field stripping if needed.
That's why the band is slotted - so the pump arm can operate without hitting the band.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150413_015540754.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150413_015540754.jpg.html)
Future pump levers will have a greasable roller bearing at the pivot pin for longevity of the pivot pin.
Mike
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Looking good!
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Thanks Jeremy!
This project has been slow going but the completed rifles will be worth every second of the wait...I *promise*!!!
Mike
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Old Reliable next to New Generation :)
22 ft lb Steroid 392 & 50+ ft lb Millennium
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150415_002725.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150415_002725.jpg.html)
My forearm has to be inletted a bit in the front channel - the pump arm won't close all the way and I checked the action & piston headspace prior to installing the stock. The forearm is hitting the pump tube at the front before the arm is fully closed.
Either that or I need to scribe the bolt locations on the pump arm so the line up with the holes in the forearm & drill and tap them.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150415_001307.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150415_001307.jpg.html)
Here you can see how the front band locks everything together and retains the pivot pin.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150414_233834207.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150414_233834207.jpg.html)
I installed the tapered valve spring tonight also. I have no idea what the velocity is but it was *loud* and took 16 pumps to top off instead of 11.
I'm running ports wide open @ .219" except the barrel port...its still 3/16" - if I am not happy with the numbers tomorrow I'll mill the barrel port oblong like my Challenger to make it .219" also.
I shot a Wicked Monster into a bucket of water.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150415_000027.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150415_000027.jpg.html)
Now, this barrel still is not bonded yet but I forced an o ring in between the muzzle and cf sleeve so there's no barrel movement inside the sleeve.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150415_244752897.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150415_244752897.jpg.html)
I am going to do some more.chrony & accuracy testing tomorrow - I'll post results in the evening some time.
Mike
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The rifle looks great mike , looking forward to seeing the performance numbers .
Seeing the rifle all together sure makes me wish that I'd got in on the first ten .
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Looking good!
That poor pellet had a bad day lol!
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Chrony numbers:
King = 1032 fps 60.1 ft lbs
Wicked Monster = 849 fps 52.5 ft lbs
37gr Spitzer = 789 fps 51.1 ft lbs
45gr Spitzer = 734 fps 53.8 ft lbs
Since the ft lbs usually increase with heavier projectiles I'm going to an oblong barrel port - however I am *very* satisfied with the Kings performance! ;D
This was not tethered...the rifle was filled to 1800 psi, disconnected & shot over the chronograph.
Mike
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Hot dang! That's smokin' with the Kings...
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I'm going to add a weighted insert to the hammer first to increase the valve dwell time before I take the top end apart and try the oblong port.
Here's a WM shot into a 2x4 from 7' away...it penetrated the same amount as my Challenger did at over 1000 fps so I believe that's the slugs maximum penetration amount in a 2x4 due to massive distortion.
That slug is *smashed* :)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150415_090214298.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150415_090214298.jpg.html)
Mike
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On an 1800 fill? That is awesome!!
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Mike, what is the volume of the valve? Thanks
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The valve is open on the front to a reservoir of about 45 cc....
Bob
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The valve is open on the front to a reservoir of about 45 cc....
Bob
Thanks Bob.
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Well, my Wicked Monsters proved to be most accurate in this rifle too...my 1:22 twist just loves them!
I didn't shoot any Kings as I wanted to leave her tuned hot for hunting (pics in the Hunting Gate shortly).
I cleaned the barrel by pulling a .257 Bore Snake with the brush removed through it twice.
Then I saturated 2 felt cleaning pellets with Brownells Moly Bore Paste, loaded them, fired them then shot 2 Kings down the bore to clean things up.
It took about 8 shots to settle in but it sure made a difference!
Here's a three shot group @ 30 yards from the hood of my Jeep using a fixed 6x Bug Buster scope. The rifle was tethered via remote line to a 13ci bottle regged at 1800 psi.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150415_160257603.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150415_160257603.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150415_161345133_HDR.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150415_161345133_HDR.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150415_160221166.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150415_160221166.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150415_160235042.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150415_160235042.jpg.html)
That guard rail up the road was about 75 yards away...the holdover was the bottom of the first dot below.the crosshairs...I was *slaying* a Red Bull can every shot! :)
I will try to run some shot strings when I can...the law enforcement range has been closed for the last 2 days so they can burn their slash piles.
More to come!
Mike
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It's great to see the updates. Thank you.
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Super psyched about the rifle! It's looking really good!
At some point, can you show what the shrouded and non-shrouded look like side-by-side? I'm leaning toward shrouded, but wanted to see what they looked like compared to one another.
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Larry, I will as soon as I have the shrouded version parts assembled.
So, tonight I turned a hammer spring guide out of 316 stainless round bar to add weight to the hammer.
The hammer, guide & stainless cocking knob weigh 79.8 grams.
I had to go to a 1.5" x 12# spring vs the 2" x 10# spring I was using because my guide fills the pocket inside the hammer and is flush with the rear.
All I could do tonight is some unscientific testing...which was shoot a Wicked Monster into my water bucket and see if I got more expansion which means I got more velocity.
I filled the rifle to 1800 psi and had the RVA set just shy of coil bind.
When I shot into the bucket there was valve ping! That hadn't happened before...curious I had to go check the bucket for expansion of my slug.
Prior testing at 850 fps got good expansion but only a few fragmenting pieces.
I have *no idea* what the velocity is right now but I will let the pic of the slug inside my bucket speak for itself - its more violent than my Challenger testing & that was just over 1000 fps!!!
It may be just that one slug and how it hit but there's a big improvement...I'll be running chrony strings tomorrow.
If I'm at where I think I am performance wise I am done tuning and will start assembling powerplants on the rest of the guns.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150416_022339071.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150416_022339071.jpg.html)
Here's a pic of all the pieces I recovered from the bucket
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150416_035156.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150416_035156.jpg.html)
More to come tomorrow!!!
Mike
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While it's nice to chase maximum FPE to find out what the ultimate potential is (I always do!), you would get more useful data if you graphed velocity vs. preload to see if you are approaching a plateau at 1800 psi.... There is NO point in having more hammer strike than that which will max. out the velocity, and even that produces an Air Hog.... To produce useful tunes for either tethered, or as a pumper, you won't be maxing the preload all the way to the plateau.... I'm sure you have seen the graphs I am talking about, here is one for my Disco Double....
(http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/30%20cal%20Disco%20Double/30DiscoDoubleHammerSettings_zps443bcea0.jpg) (http://s378.photobucket.com/user/rsterne/media/30%20cal%20Disco%20Double/30DiscoDoubleHammerSettings_zps443bcea0.jpg.html)
You need to do that with the Kings and the heaviest slug that makes sense, and see where you are at, instead of chasing your tail changing things you may not need to change.... The useful tunes on the graph above are 5 or more turns out with the pellet and 3.5 or more turns out with the BBT.... Anything more than that is an Air Hog, with no gain in performance.... Tether the gun at 1800, crank the preload to coil bind, shoot 2 shots, back it off a turn, and repeat until you are well down on velocity.... It takes very little time to give you all the information you need to make an informed decision on how to proceed....
Bob
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I totally agree and planned on doing just that...I just had to know what the ceiling was with a heavy slug - people still want to see me hit your 67+ ft lb 1 shot max (they've asked!) even though my plan is to ship the guns tuned to 40 ft lbs with Kings.
I will post all the details when I'm done later today.
Mike
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Holy smokes. These rifles are wicked!
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My prototype maxed at 53 FPE with Kings at 1800 psi, and I had a single shot at 69 FPE with EunJin Points (42.4 gr) with the preload maxed out.... The usable tunes were 1 shot at 50 FPE, 2 at 45 FPE and 3 at 40 FPE with the Kings.... You have the new valve with a bit larger ports, and a bigger reservoir, and have already hit 60 FPE with the Kings, so you certainly have the power.... Is it possible your slugs are a bit tight in the TJ's 0.250" bore to deliver equal FPE on 1800 psi?.... Just a thought....
Bob
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Yeah, that's a possibility... The fit to bore is *just right* but that doesn't reduce bearing surface area of my slugs.
I'll have to try a 52gr BBT that's lubed just to see what happens.
I should be happy about the Kings at 60 ft lbs then :)
I'll run it over.the chrony this afternoon...
Mike
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As a lucky owner of one of these first guns I am so excited for these to get finished and cant wait to take it out hunting.
I was tempted to get the fx independence but so glad I waited for one of these. Someone on this forum told me about this build when i was lookibg for a high end pumper and after reading all the posts I was all in
The power and accuracy are more then I was hoping for! The stocks look amazing Im happy to be apart of all this and wanted to thank everyone who has helped on this project either directly or indirectly with ideas and stuff. You guys rock!
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OK Mike I need to stop reading all these updates as it is making the wait more difficult.
Is that Camo one on your hood the one I think it is?
How loud is it at those numbers?
Norm
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Yes Norm...I'm showing your gun some *Love*! ;D
It sounds like a rimfire...*not* backyard friendly!!!
Mike
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I got to do a bit of chrony work today...I settled on my original hammer/spring combo.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150416_160528290_HDR.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150416_160528290_HDR.jpg.html)
This is a 30 shot group with Kings @ 25 yards - anywhere from 978 fps down to 820 fps. Fill pressure was either 1800 or 2200 psi.
The 5 shot group to the upper right side is how far my POI moved just from screwing on my Clague LDC! I took it off after.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150416_174056716.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150416_174056716.jpg.html)
WM's @ 855 fps - RVA -2.5 turns - 50 yards
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150416_182509196.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150416_182509196.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150416_201010263.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150416_201010263.jpg.html)
My 50 yard target...the upper target lower right side group was with my Clague LDC. I took it off and shot the .600" 5 shot group to the lower left of the bottom target (even though I was aiming at the top target LOL).
The other shots on the left of the upper target was me getting zeroed for 50 yards. The 2 shots in the bull were my final sight in shots. Not bad for a small/6x scope :)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150416_200825001.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150416_200825001.jpg.html)
Air usage went from 400 psi per shot with the 80 gram hammer & 12# spring down to 200 psi with the RVA backed of 2.5 turns and the 10# spring with the spring guide removed from the hammer.
I'm definitely happy! The barrels aren't even bonded yet...the cf tube is just locked into the barrel bands with the barrel floating freely inside. The muzzle is o ringed between the barrel and cf tube for centering and the thread protector is putting tension on the cf tube.
Worth noting...the velocity of the kings stayed the same from coil bind to -5 turns out on the RVA. Air usage dropped from 250 psi per shot down to 175 psi per shot yet the velocity remained at 905 fps.
I need to play more with a pellet tune. My WM's were doing 790 fps with the RVA @ -5 turns and using only 150 psi per shot.
More to come guys!!! I'm at the machine shop tomorrow getting all of the barrels prepped and threaded...I have 14 to do!!!
Mike
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Awesome. Thanks for the update it's looking great.
One quick question, what did you decide to do with the barrels. I know at first they were going to be epoxyed to the carbon fiber. Then Jim had developed a system that was better. I also heard that you might use Bob's system with the belleville washers?
Thanks again for the update.
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I'm just going to bond the sleeves to the barrels - it's a proven system. I'm going to play with viscous dampening and tensioning on my own time, not when I'm already past delivery dates.
I *do* believe it'll work and work extremely well...its just more time & parts & cost and I'm already spending about $100 of my own money on everybody's rifles to get them to where they're at.
It may be a future development & offering.
Mike
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I don't know about the rest of the guys but I am happy with .6 inch groups at 50 yards so ill be happy with it bonded.
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Well guys, I had a setback last week but didn't say anything until it was resolved.
Unfortunately Jim had another mini stroke a week ago Thursday night - he told me about it last Friday and he was not able to finish the rifles. I had to pack up 6 months worth of project parts & materials and find another machinist.
I found one!!! He prepped all of the barrels today and turned the breech shoulders down so the cf sleeve will slip over the breech shoulder.
I'm going to his shop again Tuesday morning and he's making all of the bolts and finishing the mags and ball detent system.
His name is Jason and he's been a gunsmith for 38 years - his rifles built from scratch are beautiful...he's very competent, accurate and he's *fast*!!!
He almost has a huge CNC machine operational... Once these ship and if I can sell 20 more rifles Jason can get his CNC up & running and the parts will be made very quickly from now on. But the next run will be hand machined again...fortunately I have all of the jigs & fixtures Jim made for this project.
I'll post pics of all the barrels and such a little later tonight. It looks like I will be shipping parts for anodizing next Thursday.
Here's one of the barrels getting prepped.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150417_102505103_HDR.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150417_102505103_HDR.jpg.html)
Mike
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Thanks for the update. Glad you got the issue resolved.
Sorry to hear about Jim. I hope that he heals well.
Frank
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Any good testing over the weekend?
I know the plan is for them to go to anodizing on Thursday, any idea how long their turn around time is?
Thanks for the updates.
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I don't have weekends off like most folks do...I worked my State job.
Here's some update pics - The breech shoulders have been turned down to the inside diameter of the cf sleeves so the shoulder is a snug slip fit inside the cf tube.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150421_175744168.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150421_175744168.jpg.html)
On the other end is a bushing that slides in between the cf tube and barrel - this barrel is .30 cal and is ready for bonding, but I'm doing them all at once when they're *all* ready.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150421_175712646.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150421_175712646.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150421_175726776.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150421_175726776.jpg.html)
More to come...we just got this far today.
Mike
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Keep it up mike!
BTW, i plan on ordering some 31 grainers here soon... you up for the challenge?
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*** .30 cal Testing ***
I'm really short on time right now, but I tested the .30 cal Millennium this morning.
The power issues as far as I can tell with .25 cal is the nipple on the gauge manifold was blocking the flow path from the small plenum volume - I shortened this one on the lathe and I nailed Bob's ft lb numbers ;D
I'll let my data pic explain the numbers. Groups were 5 shots @ 25 yards with a fixed 4x Bug Buster with an unseasoned barrel. The EPP/UG's were shot straight from the mold and have huge potential. I took 1 shot at a 2" piece of clay pigeon @ 85 yards with a JSB and smoked it.
The Stun Dart is a 72gr dart from my blowgun attachment.
I'll post more as soon as I can...
Mike
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150430_111020424.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150430_111020424.jpg.html)
JSB 44.75gr - 5 shots @ 25 yards
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150430_103349799.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150430_103349799.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150430_110554688.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150430_110554688.jpg.html)
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Congratulations on what is the first .30 cal pumper, to my knowledge.... Shows lots of promise.... Looking forward to a 2-shot, equal velocity string, untethered....
Bob
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Been a couple weeks. Just curious if there are any updates to share on how testing is coming along. Eager to see how the .250 version tests out.
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Been a couple weeks. Just curious if there are any updates to share on how testing is coming along. Eager to see how the .250 version tests out.
You beat me to it. I was just think of posting to see whats up. My guess is Mike is having so much fun with the rifles he has not had time to post! ;D ;D
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I'm waiting on anodizing & laser engraving so I can bond barrels and perform final assembly, so I don't have any guns to test until I set up each rifle prior to shipping them.
Mike
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Mike ... thanks for the update ... it is appreciated.
Everyday, I check this thread for any new posts or photos ... especially the pictures.
Every image I've seen looks great and leaves me wanting more.
Keep-up the good work.
The .30 caliber Millennium looks really good.
Nice looking one-hole group ... too.
Not to mention the power ... 69.3fpe - impressive.
For my use, a .25 caliber 25.39gr JSB pellet generating 35fpe with a quick
follow-up shot capability will serve most of my purposes.
But, it is good to know it will be a breeze to adjust power output with a few changes
to the rifle settings by the owner to accommodate even heavier pellets - if I'd prefer
to do so.
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Any updates? Sounds like anodizing is taking longer than expected? They've been out to anodizing for almost five weeks now.
Thanks for the updates.
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Still waiting on anodizing - the parts went out 2 weeks ago, not 5 weeks ago.
Once they come back its just a matter of timing barrels to receivers & milling transfer ports then bonding sleeves.
I'll post pics once I have the aluminum parts back.
Mike
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Ok.
I was just going by what you wrote, " It looks like I will be shipping parts for anodizing next Thursday." That was on April 18th. That would mean they went out April 24. That would put them at over five weeks. Since there was no update, I just assumed they went out at that time.
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Thanks for the up date .
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I called.the anodizer - I will have the parts back by the end of next week...I will post pics before I take them in for laser engraving.
Jason has all of the bolt handles & cocking knobs finished.
I should have more pics posted by next Friday.
Thanks for being patient!
Mike
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***Update***
I called my anodizer again yesterday & they told me to call them on Tuesday for a ship back to me date :(
They're super busy...I'll update again next week after I talk to them again.
Mike
-
Thanks Mike!
-
*Update*
Novation in Spokane shipped the anodized parts back today so I should get them tomorrow or Thursday.
I'll post pics before I drive them to Lewiston for laser engraving...*almost* there guys!
Thank you for being so patient.
Mike
-
Right on! Awesome!
Thanks for the update ;D
-
Thanks for the update. Looking forward to seeing the pictures
-
How fast do the stun darts go out of your blow gun?
-
How fast do the stun darts go out of your blow gun?
??? Did I miss something ?
-
They came out at 495 fps ;D
Mike
-
Oh nice. I thought you were shooting them from the gun. Thats impressive
-
They came out at 495 fps ;D
Mike
You blew them out that fast?
-
Yeah, that's a 10" blowgun attachment that threads on just like an LDC...@ 1800 psi a 72gr stun dart was shooting @ 495 fps :D
It's too fast for those darts though - Jeremy is making some Wicked aluminum broadheads for.the blowgun attachment.
I'll post more about that when I get a chance to test them.
Mike
-
Yeah, that's a 10" blowgun attachment that threads on just like an LDC...@ 1800 psi a 72gr stun dart was shooting @ 495 fps :D
It's too fast for those darts though - Jeremy is making some Wicked aluminum broadheads for.the blowgun attachment.
I'll post more about that when I get a chance to test them.
Mike
COOL!!!
-
What the...? How did I miss this? You have a blowgun attachment?!?!?!
-
Hey guys, the anodized parts showed up today right before I left for work - they're *gorgeous*!
I'll post pics when I get home tonight - They're going to laser engraving tomorrow ;)
Mike
-
Sweet! Can't wait to see them!!
-
Woohoo.. awesome :)
-
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150629_233703357.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150629_233703357.jpg.html)
The laser engraving place said the lettering will end up white on black anodizing...I'm dropping off the breeches tomorrow :)
Mike
-
:D
-
Mike looking good
Norm
-
Looking good.
Did they give you a time frame for the engraving?
Thanks
-
Any new news?
-
Not yet - I'm on 12 hour shifts now so I can only make the drive into Lewiston every Thursday & Friday...they weren't ready last week.
Mike
-
Breech engraving will be finished & ready to pick up this Saturday...I'll post pics as soon as I get home with them.
Mike
-
Looking forward to see the engraving.
Are all the parts now complete?
Is all that is left is assembly and testing?
Norm
-
No...still have to final drill for.the ball detent for the magazines and sleeve barrels.
Mike
-
Wow sounds like a lot of work to be done.
How is Jim doing?
Norm
-
I haven't talked to Jim since his mini stroke & I had to find another machinist...I've been pretty busy.
Mike
-
I picked up the breeches today...#001 & #009 are the only Master Hunters and have the MH in the beginning of the serial number.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150717_141030_1.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150717_141030_1.jpg.html)
I hope you guys like them.
The rest of the work will continue next Thursday.
Mike
-
Very nice looking work.
-
Very impressive
Norm
-
Beautiful ... love the looks of the receiver.
-
Gorgeous, Mike !!! .... Getting antsy to try it....
Bob
-
I think these next few weeks will feel like time has stoped.. Im like a little kid waiting for Christmas.
Those look sweet
-
Gorgeous, Mike !!! .... Getting antsy to try it....
Bob
Are you getting one from Mike?
-
That's the plan.... *grin*
Bob
-
I'm with you Bob can hardly wait.
The MH001 heading my way soon!! I HOPE!!
Norm
-
That's the plan.... *grin*
Bob
Cool!!! Do you still have your original one?
-
Bobs getting one in Pepper Laminate with .25 & .30 cal barrels.
I'm not making any guesses to ship dates...every time I do something delays things.
Just know I'm *almost* done with these!!!
Mike
-
My original was sold over a year ago to a chap on Vancouver Island.... He loved it.... but after a 2nd Heart Attack has decided to concentrate on his PBs.... It was for sale a while back on the CAF for a steal of a price (half what he paid me).... grabbed up pretty quickly....
Bob
-
My original was sold over a year ago to a chap on Vancouver Island.... He loved it.... but after a 2nd Heart Attack has decided to concentrate on his PBs.... It was for sale a while back on the CAF for a steal of a price (half what he paid me).... grabbed up pretty quickly....
Bob
Okay.
-
Bobs getting one in Pepper Laminate with .25 & .30 cal barrels.
I'm not making any guesses to ship dates...every time I do something delays things.
Just know I'm *almost* done with these!!!
Mike
Hey Mike, are you going to be making more? I wondering because I thought I heard something about you not making more.
-
Yes...but my machinist needs to promise a 3-4 week turnaround on all the parts. I'm *not* going to do it if it takes as long as this run has...granted this is the first run I've done but its cost me right at $200 *per rifle* on top of what I was paid to produce them, so that's $2000 I'm eating just because I honored my original price I set of $1200.
If its not profitable to at least a minor degree I have better things to do with my time...like make slugs or go fishing ;)
Mike
-
Yes...but my machinist needs to promise a 3-4 week turnaround on all the parts. I'm *not* going to do it if it takes as long as this run has...granted this is the first run I've done but its cost me right at $200 *per rifle* on top of what I was paid to produce them, so that's $2000 I'm eating just because I honored my original price I set of $1200.
If its not profitable to at least a minor degree I have better things to do with my time...like make slugs or go fishing ;)
Mike
Very admirable of you to honor that price! From what I have seen here while following along the rifle is well worth the price paid, and I think there is definitely a niche for it. Very impressive, can't wait to see reviews on here from happy buyers!
-
Yes...but my machinist needs to promise a 3-4 week turnaround on all the parts. I'm *not* going to do it if it takes as long as this run has...granted this is the first run I've done but its cost me right at $200 *per rifle* on top of what I was paid to produce them, so that's $2000 I'm eating just because I honored my original price I set of $1200.
If its not profitable to at least a minor degree I have better things to do with my time...like make slugs or go fishing ;)
Mike
Okay. Sounds good.
-
Hi Mike would you please suggest which of your cast bullets would be best for all 3 cal. as I would like to add some to the package when it ships.
I imagine the 22 will use pellets and if you can head me in the best direction it would be appreciated.
Norm
-
The .22 will need to use pellets until I add that caliber to my production schedule.
The .25 cal is hands down the most accurate with Wicked Monsters.
I have .30 cal 52gr EPP/UG slugs I tested that showed promise but I never had time for an extensive range session with them...I hunted with the 45gr JSB's & hit everything I shot at out to 100+ yards. I told Bullfrog I'd send him some to try in a new gun of his - I'll cast some extras so you can try them.
Changing calibers is not hard but it is not as easy as I had hoped - I will print up some instructions and send them with your rifle.
Mike
-
Mike,
If you have, or will have, a rifle for sale I'm a buyer.
-
Thanks Mike for your hard work throughout the process. Time wise, things didn't work out as you planned, but I think everyone is still just as excited and enthusiastic about the finished product when it's done. Can't wait to sling some heavy .25 when the time comes.
PS I'll be wanting to order 1 or 2 tins of lead whenever the rifle is ready. I'll PM you later to discuss what you think is the best weight for my purposes. I'm thinking 31 grain or those awesome Wicked Monsters might be best for me.
Thanks Mike!
-
I'm *not* going to do it if it takes as long as this run has...granted this is the first run I've done but its cost me right at $200 *per rifle*
on top of what I was paid to produce them,If its not profitable to at least a minor degree I have better things to do with my time...like make slugs or go fishing ;)
Mike, how about combining your Millennium Pumper Lower with a BNM Custom Products (http://www.bnmcustom.com/products_categories/complete-kits/) upper ... this should certainly bring production costs
down to a more affordable level.
I ... for one ... would be interested in a lower-cost .177 caliber version with a match-grade shrouded barrel.
Or, consider contracting with BNM Custom Products to CNC machine your receivers and other associated machine shop operations.
-
It's been a couple of weeks since you picked up the parts. Any updates?
Thanks
-
I'm waiting for a slot with my machinist to finish these up...it looks like next Thursday he can keep going on them.
Mike
-
Hi.
My name is Maarten, and I'm thinking of Selling my Millennium pumper serial number 004.
Its a .25 whit the Forest Camo, satin finish and the straight cut forearm.
If someone is interested just email me at rfvsdd @ hotmail.com, Mike can confirm I'm one of the first 10!!
Thanks Maarten
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Wow, just wow. I have been reading this post for the last three hours. It is truly one of the best post i have read. These guns look amazing, just by looking you can see how much care, effort and time has been put in. I wish one-day I'll own one (especially a master hunter).
Tim.C
-
Any new updates?
-
Not yet - still waiting to hear from my machinist...there's a bunch of wildfires around where he lives so I'm hoping he didn't have to evacuate. He has not returned my calls. I'll update as soon as I know something.
Mike
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Fire is not good
-
sorry I haven't been checking this thread often. can I order one of these yet? and if I do what is the expected build time, or are you making actual lots of them yet/already
?
-
Not yet..
We are still waiting for the first batch to get finished up.
There have been a few setbacks that were unavoidable hopefully they will be finished soon!
-
Thanks Jeremy........I've been super busy with these fires we have. It's been upgraded to a Type 1 Incident and the Lolo 2 Fire has the top of Greer Grade on a Level 3 evacuation - that's where my machinist lives!!! I am praying his family & shop are safe - I haven't heard from him but I am pretty sure he is involved in helping with the fires and evacuations.
One of my coworkers spent all night moving 15 loads of cattle off the mountain and there were lots of cattle & horses that were burnt...We need ***RAIN*** and these winds to die down!
I'll keep you folks posted - I have the next 3 days off so I will be on here more often unless I get dispatched out to help.
Mike
-
Things are bad here in Washington also... I helped fight the Tyee Creek fire in 93 health and age keeps me out of this fight.
It is looking bad right now it almost feels that some of these fires will keep going till snowfall...
My Prayers go out for the families of the three firefighters that lost their lives.
Be safe Mike.
-
Had some good handline trout fishing on Cooperation Creek up off the Lochsa. That is rugged country. Worked a spell at the cedar mill in Syringa too. Them were the days........
-
Syringa is bad...they back burned yesterday and had a Level 3 evac...everybody is waiting.
It looks like the Lolo 2 fire is getting contained - that's right where my machinist is. I almost drove my Harley up there today to take a look but there's still Red Hotz flying in from all over the country & I don't want to be a spectator that just gets in the way.
If I had my Nomex, Polanski & Fire Pack so I could help that'd be different.
I was in Twisp, Washington last year for the Carlton Complex Fire...the IC was at the Liberty Bell High School - I feel badly for the families of the firefighters that crashed their rig & got overrun by the fire :(
I will update on the Millenniums as soon as I get a hold of Jason, my machinist. I'm pretty sure he's been running his dozer cutting lines.
Mike
-
Any Word from Jason?
-
No, I'm riding up to his shop tomorrow - they've got our fires under control and are just mopping up so I can go up there now.
Mike
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Glad to hear things are under control
-
Glad you're safe.
Bob
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Mike
Glad to hear things are getting better and that you are fine. I was a little worried about you after not hearing from you and hearing on the news how bad things were in your area.
Norm
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I just got back from my machinists shop...he & his shop are fine - he was busy helping with the fires just as I thought.
I'm bringing the breeches up there next Wednesday & if all goes well I'll be assembling rifles on Thursday :)
Mike
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Great news Mike; I have my scope and ammo, I'm ready to go hunting!
-
I've already messaged Mike on this, so he's aware... But I may be coming in to some medical bills in the near future, so I'll be possibly looking to get rid of a few things. Among them will be my Millennium Pumper (before I even get to see or hold it). It will be serial number 003, .25 cal with the monocore moderator. I noticed some posts with people inquiring when the next batch of rifles will be built after this first run, as they were interested in getting one. PM me if you're interested. I'll let you have it for my cost.
Larry
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I've already messaged Mike on this, so he's aware... But I may be coming in to some medical bills in the near future, so I'll be possibly looking to get rid of a few things. Among them will be my Millennium Pumper (before I even get to see or hold it). It will be serial number 003, .25 cal with the monocore moderator. I noticed some posts with people inquiring when the next batch of rifles will be built after this first run, as they were interested in getting one. PM me if you're interested. I'll let you have it for my cost.
Larry
I may be interested in your Millennium Pumper . Sending a PM . Dale
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I just got back from my machinists shop...he & his shop are fine - he was busy helping with the fires just as I thought.
I'm bringing the breeches up there next Wednesday & if all goes well I'll be assembling rifles on Thursday :)
Mike
How did the rifle assembly turn out? Pics when you can eh?
Walter
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Machinist is this upcoming Wednesday...I should have some more pics by next weekend.
Mike
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Awesome! Look for them for sure
-
We got all the barrels fitted to each receiver & drilled the transfer ports. The .25 cal has an oblong port.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150909_133519920.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150909_133519920.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150909_133628815.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150909_133628815.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150909_133606908.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150909_133606908.jpg.html)
Tomorrow we are drilling & tapping the bolts for the handles, milling the ball detent in the magazines and machining bushings for the barrels so I can sleeve them.
Mike
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Looking good .
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I just went out and spent 2K on my new airgun to take the edge off my airgun addiction and now you post these photos and now im feeling pumper withdrawal... I was all Happy with my new gun and now im back on the edge of my seat waiting for this amazing rifle :)
They are looking great! Cant wait to get my hands on one
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Thanks Jeremy :)
If all goes well I will be bonding barrels tomorrow while Jason does the drilling & tapping.
I'm seriously hoping to have these assembled and ready for tuning by next weekend so I can get them shipped out & everybody that bought one can *finally* shoot it!!!
Don't ask for a ship date guys...I've been jinxed every time I've said something. Just know I'm working as fast as I can to get the final details done and get them out to you.
I'll post progress updates tomorrow evening.
Mike
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I cant wait to see what my shrouded pumper will look like! I plan on eliminating some ground squirrels to brale it in then mount up my gen2 nightvision and take care of a coyote problem.
-
Very interesting magazine. Looking forward to the pictures of the finished rifles.
-
It's good to see progress.
Thanks for the update. Looking forward to more.
-
Before the bushings were made
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150910_114748889.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150910_114748889.jpg.html)
With bushings installed
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20150910_132141768.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20150910_132141768.jpg.html)
I didn't get to the bonding stage today...Jason is going to mill the ball detent in the mags and drill & tap the bolt handles during this next week.
I will be back at his shop next Thursday.
Mike
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Those are looking sexy!
-
Looking forward to seeing some more pictures soon. I imagine that you're busy assembling them today.
-
No, Jason milled the ball detents during the week & he went scouting for elk today.
I'll be up there next Wednesday to bond the barrels. Assembly will happen as soon as the barrels are fully cured.
Mike
-
Oh, OK. . .
I thought from your post last week that you were working on the bonding yesterday so they could be assembled today? . . .
I was so excited in November when I told my friends that I was getting one, and should have it at the beginning of January. Now they just all laugh when I bring it up.
I really hope you can get it worked out because I think there is a market for this gun. I know I may be stepping over the line here but something is going to have to change for this to be viable in the future. I hoped you had a machinist that would work out but it's been what, almost two months with this machinist and he's only had to do a couple of small operations and it's still not done.
I really want this and you to be successful but from my perspective there needs to be much better communication with more updates. I'm sure I was not the only one who read that you were going to be working on them yesterday and came looking for an update. No update and then when asked, it seems that we're at exactly where we were last week with no work done.
Perhaps I'm so frustrated because it's something I want so much? This is the gun I've always thought someone should make. I hope you get it all figured out.
-
...hmmm...
-
Mike,
I know C6 is frustrated but don't take his frustration to heart; rather take heart that many, if not most of us who have ever attempted a new venture, realize that you can take your expectations and mutiply your end date by a dozen or more. I am confident the end result will be worth our wait and your effort.
-
Thanks guys...I am sorry this is taking so long.
I will be at Jason's this Thursday bonding barrels - I will post pics of the process Thursday evening.
I will be assembling rifles this next weekend and will take & post any noteworthy pics as I go.
Yes, something has to change...I won't do this again unless my parts are machined within 1 month or so.
Maybe future rifles will simply have a Crosman steel breech with a barrel machined to fit them.
I want these completed and shipped just as badly as you folks do.
Thank you for your patience...
Mike
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Mike, in the future ... like I mentioned ... there is an "upper-receiver" source that could present an affordable alternative.
Combined with the custom barrel sourced for the Millennium Pumer ... this could be your lower-cost solution.
Mike, how about combining your Millennium Pumper Lower with a BNM Custom Products (http://www.bnmcustom.com/products_categories/complete-kits/) upper ... this should certainly bring production costs
down to a more affordable level.
I ... for one ... would be interested in a lower-cost .177 caliber version with a match-grade shrouded barrel.
Or, consider contracting with BNM Custom Products to CNC machine your receivers and other associated machine shop operations.
In the meantime, keep making progress ... that's all you can do.
With a little more perseverance ... I'm certain ... the Millennium Pumper will become a reality.
-
Any reason not to just use crosman barrels and uppers in the future?
-
Any reason not to just use crosman barrels and uppers in the future?
I agree with using more crosman parts.
-
Thanks guys...I am sorry this is taking so long.
I will be at Jason's this Thursday bonding barrels - I will post pics of the process Thursday evening.
I will be assembling rifles this next weekend and will take & post any noteworthy pics as I go.
Yes, something has to change...I won't do this again unless my parts are machined within 1 month or so.
Maybe future rifles will simply have a Crosman steel breech with a barrel machined to fit them.
I want these completed and shipped just as badly as you folks do.
Thank you for your patience...
Mike
Just throwing it out there but if you adapt it to using Crosman steel breech, you might consider Mrod breech, BNM multi-breach, or one of the other guys already making single shot style for Crosman guns too.
-
The heart of the Millennium Pumper is the lower-receiver/compression-assembly.
Offering the lower-receiver/compression-assemblies for-sale separately ... might be a way to start generating a revenue stream.
Some of us ... myself for one ... would be willing to purchase the lower-receiver/compression-assembly to mate with an
upper-receiver/barrel of our choice.
-
Some of us ... myself for one ... would be willing to purchase the lower-receiver/compression-assembly to mate with an
upper-receiver/barrel of our choice.
X2!!!!!!!!!!!
-
Jason finished the machining with the exception of 2 of the shrouds for the short barreled rifles...we ran out of aluminum round stock. It's been ordered already.
I will be working on rifles bonding barrels tonight and beginning assembly of the powerplants tomorrow. I have some springs on order for the ball detent on the magazines.
I'll be posting pics as I go - there won't be much to post tonight but there will be some more tomorrow afternoon.
Here's a 20" barreled shrouded version (there's only 3 being made).
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151001_174318.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151001_174318.jpg.html)
I went with a threaded/vented spacer and end caps...I'm hoping to have someone print some 3D printed baffles to insert between the muzzle and shroud cap (you know who you are - I will text your phone tonight :) )
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151001_174628.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151001_174628.jpg.html)
More to come guys - I'm looking to ship these out within 2 weeks.
Mike
-
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151007_225127041.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151007_225127041.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151007_225846322.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151007_225846322.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151007_225802077.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151007_225802077.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151007_225257655.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151007_225257655.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151007_225344041.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151007_225344041.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151007_225631463.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151007_225631463.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151007_225823193.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151007_225823193.jpg.html)
The volume between the barrel muzzle spacer and the end cap will be about 5" on the shrouded models.
Jeremy is working on some 3D printed baffle inserts :)
Mike
-
Looking great! I really like how you have the CF tensioning sleeve with the CF shroud over it. Looks really neat how you're doing it.
-
Thanks Larry :)
The pics show it in a 25" barreled action - the rear plug on the 20" barreled shrouded models will butt up against the barrel band that will be at the front of the breech.
Mike
-
They're coming together...I'm back at it first thing in the morning.
I'll re-test this one in .30 caliber tomorrow sometime & post accuracy results.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151008_211942395.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151008_211942395.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151008_213424765.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151008_213424765.jpg.html)
Mike
-
Thanks for the pictures. Looking forward to seeing the results.
-
Is that a set trigger ?
-
It looks like a set trigger but it's actually a safety. The pumper uses the trigger group from the Marauder.
-
Here's how the shroud will tension against the band.
I will have a shrouded rifle assembled Saturday.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151008_182920983.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151008_182920983.jpg.html)
Here's the front barrel band - it captures the pivot pin so there's no need for clips. The shrouded models will have E Clips though since the barrel will be fully free floated and will not have a front band.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151008_215558068.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151008_215558068.jpg.html)
Mike
-
Any thought to selling the lower as a kit?
-
StevenG - Yes, once these are shipped & hunting season is over so I have my machinist back we will start making lower assembly kits...once I have some completed I will offer them for sale.
I shot a couple groups today with the .30 cal.
This is the first 5 shot group @ 25 yards - the one that shot high was the very first shot.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151009_115349902_HDR.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151009_115349902_HDR.jpg.html)
Here's the 50 yard group
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151009_182229529.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151009_182229529.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151009_120130654.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151009_120130654.jpg.html)
I was only using a fixed 4x Bug Buster scope - it shot a 5 shot group @ 50 yards that was right around 1".
Here's the numbers:
First string - all shots tethered to an 1800 psi regulated bottle *No Gauge Manifold* - fill nipple attached directly to the Prod adapter inside the gun so the only volume the gun had is the valve & small space before the check valve (like Bobs Millennium he built).
44.75 grain JSB
774
769
763
763
761
Avg 766 for 58.3 ft lbs
String 2:
766
764
750
754
755
Don't know why I lost a few fps...maybe she's just settling in. I'll get back out to do more shooting when I have time - I'm holed up at home working in guns.
I will be coming out with a .300" Wicked Monster very soon - it should be right around 38-40 grains.
More pics tomorrow on guns built.
Mike
-
Pressure testing a rifle before final assembly.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151009_193313227.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151009_193313227.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151009_193357226.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151009_193357226.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151009_193332266.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151009_193332266.jpg.html)
Mike
-
Here's Jeremy's gun - its getting final assembled tomorrow.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151009_205159_1.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151009_205159_1.jpg.html)
Mike
-
Mike, They are looking awesome!
I have been going back through the build threads and
the more I read about this rifle the more it amazes me.
I've recently done just a few simple project with a machinist
and the amount of work and time it can take has given me a tiny glimpse of
how much you must have put into this. So I wanted to say thank you,
And thanks to all the behind the scenes people that are helping this happen.
And I'd also like to thank you for letting us all watch with you in the build process,
I've really enjoyed it and have learned from it as well. And I hope to some day own one of your rifles.
Super stoked to see that they are almost done!!
Said all that to say, keep up the good work!
A couple requests/questions,
what is the finished rifles weight?
once you get them completed could you post a recap of all the specs?
(weight, length, mag capacity, trigger weight range, barrel info etc.)
Joseph
-
Thanks Joseph - These would have been finished a long time ago if I wasn't relying on outside sources for parts.
Here is my 'Poor Mans Barrel Bonding Jig' - a box with holes cut in it stapled to my work bench...it actually worked perfectly :)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151010_093206145.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151010_093206145.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151010_093218805.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151010_093218805.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151010_093155004_1.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151010_093155004_1.jpg.html)
Mike
-
Some of us ... myself for one ... would be willing to purchase the lower-receiver/compression-assembly to mate with an
upper-receiver/barrel of our choice.
X2!!!!!!!!!!!
x3!!
-
Here's Jeremy's gun - its getting final assembled tomorrow.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151009_205159_1.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151009_205159_1.jpg.html)
Mike ... how long is the barrel on this rifle?
That is one good looking pumper!
-
The Shrouded Models have a 20" barrel...but there are a couple of full length 25" barrels that are getting full shrouds too.
Mike
-
Sorry if I'm late on asking this question....
But is there a video out there already?
I want to SEE this beast in action!!!
-Medi
-
No, but if I can figure out a way to take video with my phone & upload it to YouTube I will do one this Thursday.
Mike
-
No, but if I can figure out a way to take video with my phone & upload it to YouTube I will do one this Thursday.
Mike
Super excited to see a basic functionality video!
Thanks Mike!
-Medi
-
Any news?
Thanks
-
Waiting on ball detent springs to be delivered...they're supposed to be here tomorrow.
Mike
-
***Update***
I spent all morning making some tools so my transfer ports are all exact.
I assembled Millennium #1 with a .30 caliber barrel - it was too late to head to the range so I set my chrony up in my front yard, filled the gun to 2200 psi (its in the red zone but within the range of the Disco gauge) and loaded a 45 grain JSB.
It was *LOUD*!!!
How loud you ask? How about 884.5 fps for 78.3 ft lbs kinda of loud!!! NOT tethered - running as a pure Pumper!!! The gauge shows 1900 psi still in the gun so there's at least 1 more full power shot and a couple of follow ups.
I couldn't keep shooting or the Sheriff will be knocking on my door.
I ran a penetration test in my shop. It is blowing completely through a 1" thick phone book AND a piece of 5/8" plywood.
I am going to the range tomorrow to run numbers on #1 & #7...I need to get Jeremy his rifle ASAP so he can have the Monocores CNC machined for the Shrouds & LDC's.
Stay tuned guys - I have pics & will upload data tomorrow but I'm busy building and playing mad scientist today.
;)
Mike
-
A bit of overfill, but impressive FPE for sure.... Look forward to what you get for velocity when tuned for 2 equal shots in .30 cal....
Bob
-
The valve makes the most power @ 2200 psi - I tried that pressure to see what to expect when tethered to one of Tims 2200 psi regged 4500 psi Ninja bottles :)
I don't know what velocity Jeremy's 20" barreled Millennium in .25 caliber is shooting at but I just did a water bucket test with my 31gr SPH and it expanded to the point if beginning to doughnut hole - I'm guessing low to mid 800's.
Kings blew through 2 pieces of 5/8" plywood and chipped the concrete pavers I had as dead stops.
I swear it can't get light fast enough for some range time!!!
More to come.
Mike
-
I forgot to mention...I ended up ditching the tapered springs and used stock Disco valve springs.
I'm also using Century Spring #71152 for a hammer spring - 2" long x .360" OD x .042" wire rated at 10#'s.
The final assembled weight of the hammer & cocking bolt is 104 grams.
Mike
-
Water bucket testing with Jeremy's 20" Millennium.
My 31gr SPH
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151021_185514_1.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151021_185514_1.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151021_185440_1.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151021_185440_1.jpg.html)
My 32.8 gr Wicked Monster
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151021_193433.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151021_193433.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151021_193403.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151021_193403.jpg.html)
These rifles with my slugs are the worst thing small game & critters ever dreamt of!
;)
Mike
-
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151021_204845.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151021_204845.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151021_204420.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151021_204420.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151021_204632.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151021_204632.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151021_204709_1.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151021_204709_1.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151021_205150.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151021_205150.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151021_204126.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151021_204126.jpg.html)
-
Those rifles are looking dead sexy!
What's the max fill pressure of the rifle? You ran it at 2200psi... that's more than I originally thought. Is there a known burst pressure for the reservoir?
-
Recommended fill pressure is 2000 psi...all I will say is I have a 3000 psi gauge on my personal rifle & there's a reason the hammer assembly weighs 104 grams.
;)
All the other rifles have a standard Disco gauge for liability reasons...I'm sure you understand.
Mike
-
I think it more likely that using the onboard pump will limit the pressure to something on the order of 1800 psi.... I tried 2000 with my original and decided the extra effort was not worth it.... Once you decide on what you can pump to, I would tune the gun to deliver your desired hunting shots based on that.... and then tether it at the same pressure as well.... This puts you operating at the high efficiency end of the shot string when on tether, and when you untether you have the same shots available as when you pump.... No retuning or resighting is necessary....
Using a Disco tube, and locating the valve and check valve assembly with 10-32 screws, I think you will run out of strength long before the gun does....
Bob
-
I agree Bob - an unnamed engineer said the two 10-32 screws on the check valve gave a 2:1 safety factor @ 3000 psi but I don't know why someone would want to run the gun that high because it would have to be tethered.
I'll run some strings at the range later today increasing 100 psi per shot with max hammer spring just to see what she does.
I'm tickled pink the .30's are running where they are - I calculated my .30 cal Wicked Monster will be 40 grains which will put me *very* close to 950 fps.
I won't know for sure until my tooling arrives and I produce some to weigh.
I'll have data posted on today's range session later this evening.
Mike
-
Ok guys, data stream as promised.
The differences in the .30 calibers is I installed a tapered Spyder valve spring in gun #1 when I originally tested it & its still in there. I don't know where to buy them unless you buy an entire spring kit but they're *still* my #1 choice for valve springs - its the short silver one & it drops right into a Disco valve.
There's no need to fill above 2200 psi if you're tethered - you'll see in a moment...
All .30 cal testing is with 44.75 grain JSB's, ran untethered for true shot strings. I *did not* pump between shots... I ran the rifles down & refilled from my Joe B. Tiger Shark.
My RVA in #9 is the first and we didn't bore as deep for the springs as the production guns.
Rifle #1 .30 cal - RVA bottomed out - no coil bind
2300 psi
856.8
851
810.1
2200 psi
864.6
839.9
2000 psi
843.3
795.9
Rifle #9 .30 cal - coil bind -1 turn
2200 psi
807
824.6
796.7
750.2
680
595.5
End @ 550 psi
2000 psi
831.1
801.4
743.6
670.4
577.3
End @ 400 psi
1800 psi
810.8
779.4
725.7
666.5
581.4
End @ 400 psi
2000 psi
835
804.2
End @ 1450 psi
2000 psi - coil bind
809.8
805.4
All following are beginning @ 1800 psi
-1.5 RVA
811.5
778.6
-2 RVA
800.1
787.3
-2.5 RVA
802.1
781.5
-4 RVA
719.4
774.6
Rifle #7 in .25 caliber - RVA bottomed out - no coil bind
Kings
2200 psi
832.5
856.9
855.3
842.9
816.7
787.9
End @ 1450 psi
2000 psi
853.8
851
835.6
Barracudas
2000 psi
786.1
790.4
776.7
754.2
727.1
End @ 1400 psi
31 grain Rat Snipers
2000 psi
768.3
775.4
766.8
747.5
730.4
690.9
End @ 1170 psi
Reconfirm Kings
2000 psi
853.3
850.1
833.7
End @ 1600 psi
All targets were at 25 yards - all guns shot ragged holes - *everything* shot grouped 1/2" or less.
The .30 cals *love* those lighter weight JSB's and the .25 shot all 3 different projectiles right around 3/8" groups with the groups opening up to 1/2" as the velocity dropped off.
POI on all .25 projectiles was within 1.5" of the Kings group center.
I was using a fixed 4x Bug Buster scope that is sighted in 1" high @ 25 yards on my .30 cal.
I pulled the scope off & put it on the other guns without changing anything on it.
#1 shot 1/2" left & 1/2" high...#7 shot dead center & 1/2" right.
Whew! I should've just taken a pic of my data sheet LOL
I should be able to test a .22 cal tomorrow.
Bob, please jump in and give your analysis on how I built these :)
Mike
-
I like the 2 shots at 1800 psi with the 44.8 gr. in .30 cal.... ~ 60 FPE once you fiddle with the RVA to get the velocity dead equal for the two shots I would think....
Looks like you have several shots (4 within 3% ES) in the 40 FPE range with a 2200 psi fill with the Kings.... The best I did from an 1800 psi fill was 3 shots at 833, 863, 843 (40 FPE).... or two shots at 899, 895 (45 FPE).... or a single shot at 951 (51 FPE).... The next shot in all three strings was still within 4% ES, but barely.... You have more total volume, of course....
It looks like the guns are producing good power and accuracy.... I would say a definite success....
Bob
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Well, it wouldn't have happened without your first gun you built and your guidance on the valve specs... My hat is off to you Sir!
I am working with somebody that has 7 CNC machines...you will see the Millenniums in true production mode very soon.
The top ends may be different (these are special!) but the function, accuracy & performance will be there along with a truly ambidextrous stock.
I'll make an official announcement once everything is in place... The cost should come down too.
We are looking at a 100 gun first run.
I'm sure .22 will get a bunch of shots...I'll know tomorrow or Saturday when I run one over the chronograph.
Mike
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Short blowgun attachment video - still pics of aftermath to follow ;)
https://youtu.be/HYUX_wtlN9o (https://youtu.be/HYUX_wtlN9o)
Jeremy is working on a .600" wide aluminum broadhead Dart for it. The Zytel shaft & plastic cone aren't holding up to the sudden pressure blast and are snapping off.
The Stun Dart by itself weighs 72 grains and went 495 fps.
Mike
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151022_205516509.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151022_205516509.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151022_210232318.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151022_210232318.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151022_210310232.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151022_210310232.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151022_210327556.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151022_210327556.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151022_210335524.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151022_210335524.jpg.html)
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UPS says my rifle will be here on the 27th as soon as I get it and can get into my friends CNC shop I will be working on the cores for the shrouds. I cant prommis how long this will take casue it depends on his work load but believe me I will be trying my best to get everything done asap!
I cant wait for these full shrouded guns the photos look amazing I am like a kid waiting for christmass
-
Well the brown truck gave me a present today!
All I can say is wow! Idk how much power this thing has but its definitely a lot! I started off with a fill of 2000psi and it sounded like a 22lr! I had not mountedmy scope or anything on it yet but decided to take a shot at my steel plate from 25 yards just sighting down the scope rail and thwang! Hit! And man was it a hit i need to chrono this thing! Anyway I mounted my hawk 16x scope on there and decided to take 2 shots at 20 and this is what I got! You can see I set a jsb there so you could see the size (http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t495/jeremyvanschoonhoven/20151027_162557_zps0gz1uspz.jpg) (http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/jeremyvanschoonhoven/media/20151027_162557_zps0gz1uspz.jpg.html)
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That definitely is stacking them! I knew that 4x Bug Buster was an accuracy handicap...
Should be running right @ 855 fps according to my chrony testing.
Be patient guys...Jeremy's having the monocores made for your Shrouds or LDC's for those of you that ordered them.
For everybody else I should be ready to ship your rifle very, very soon!
The shipping charges with insurance vary depending on where they're going...my gun store guy is checking on hard plastic cases to ship them in & I really don't want to just box them up after all this time.
Maybe Jeremy will post a pic of the case.
I'll be contacting the buyers individually over the next few days.
Mike
-
Thanks for the update.
It's nice to see them coming along.
I'm looking forward to seeing them being used. It's exciting.
-
Got first blood today on a gray squirrel!
I am printing a prototype monocore as I type this.
As far as accuracy is concerned this thing is a laser beam! Like I said I dont know how fast it is shooting but just so you guys know with a 2000lb fill after 1 shot I am using 30 pumps to get back to 2000lb. Im sure if I tone this thing back a bit it wont take that many. Its not thst hard to pump though so I am really happy! This gun and a tin of pellets will keep you hunting for years without any support equipment! I can hardly wait to get the shrouds done!
-
I've been following this thread since the start, and it's exciting to see them finished and good to go. Can't wait to see the reviews.
-
Got first blood today on a gray squirrel!
I am printing a prototype monocore as I type this.
As far as accuracy is concerned this thing is a laser beam! Like I said I dont know how fast it is shooting but just so you guys know with a 2000lb fill after 1 shot I am using 30 pumps to get back to 2000lb. Im sure if I tone this thing back a bit it wont take that many. Its not thst hard to pump though so I am really happy! This gun and a tin of pellets will keep you hunting for years without any support equipment! I can hardly wait to get the shrouds done!
Didn't see your post before I finished typing mine, but sweet!
-
Excited to hear you are going to make a run of more pumpers .
;D ;D ;D ;D
-
So today I started playing with different fill presures and it seems the magic nuber is 1900 psi.
Here is my first group at 50 yards. No pumping between shots (http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t495/jeremyvanschoonhoven/20151028_120428_zps73mqbsw5.jpg) (http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/jeremyvanschoonhoven/media/20151028_120428_zps73mqbsw5.jpg.html)
-
I'm quite certain once your shroud is tensioned in place it'll get even *better*!
I'd like to see some groups with the shroud in place tethered @ 1900 psi...just out of curiosity :)
Mike
-
The bolts had some play in them I was not happy with & Jeremy agreed he didn't like it.
I turned the bolts down & sleeved them with Teflon - the sleeve is held in place by the breech locating pin and operates like a dream now.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151028_204747181.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151028_204747181.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151029_112944.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151029_112944.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151028_213549605.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151028_213549605.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151028_213615049.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151028_213615049.jpg.html)
I'm working on them!
Mike
-
Jeremy had a check valve failure - I'm ditching the stainless steel pin with 003 o ring & making a Teflon check seal like the Benjamin has.
The little O ring is getting beat up too fast.
Mike
-
New Teflon check
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151029_173725.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151029_173725.jpg.html)
Mike
-
The other style check valve you can try is a fixed, flat head screw with an O-ring riding on it.... Only the O-ring moves, no spring is required.... The air flow path is along a small groove cut into the threads of the screw.... The O-ring wedges into the space between the taper on the flat head screw and the flat surface it is threaded into.... On the pump stroke it flexes away from the screw shank and the air just blows past it.... This was pioneered by Steve in NC and proven to last extremely well in use....
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg76/gippeto_album/20150815_182107_zpsecpqlci9.jpg) (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg76/gippeto_album/20150815_182107_zpsecpqlci9.jpg.html)
Bob
-
#1 has pumped up & held air just fine since I first out it together & used it as our test rifle...but having the first gun I shipped have a problem is unacceptable, so I'm working with the parts I have.
Looks like an easy to make check that you showed though ;)
I aired up #1 to 2000 psi, fired a .30 cal pellet and it took 18 pumps to get back to 2000 psi...and that's at mid 70 ft lbs!
Maybe Jeremy's had a burr in the pin but I'm not taking any chances - it would explain why it was taking him 30 pumps to get the pressure back up.
Mike
-
I installed.the new Teflon check in my rifle, aired it up to 2500 psi to cold flow the Teflon - the needle hasn't moved in over an hour...time to put it back together and see if she pumps up.
Mike
-
So I figurd out why it took so many pumps my headspace was off a bit so it was not pushing enough air. Fixed that changed the oring and deburred the plunger and now one shot takes 18 pumps not the 30 that it was taking. :)
-
Interested in seeing .22 numbers when you have the time.
Thanks
-
I will have .22 numbers in a day or so.
In the meantime, I wasn't happy with the durability of the 113 O rings so I machined the grooves on the check valve & piston head to accept a 206 O ring. They have a 1/8" cross section.
The 113 is on the left & the 206 is on the right - the check valve has the new 206's on it.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151103_205421606.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151103_205421606.jpg.html)
The new Teflon check pin seal that's replacing the 003 O ring I originally had.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151103_220929.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151103_220929.jpg.html)
The piston head machined for the new O rings - the center is a little thin but its 7075 T651 aluminum so its just fine.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151103_212942341.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151103_212942341.jpg.html)
Piston head with 206's installed...its a really beefy seal!
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151103_213257431.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151103_213257431.jpg.html)
I'll post more in a day or so - I'm at it 100% for the next 4 days.
Mike
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Very cool stuff. Thanks for sharing all these details with us.
Given the extremely limited nature of these guns, bullet-proof construction is highly desirable. Thanks for taking the time and effort to do it right.
Frank
-
What kind of o-rings are those?
-
Matt - They're Viton 75
I was going to use Mil Spec 90 Duro Urethane 206's but my supplier is out - the Urethane seals are also very stiff and hard to work with...these Vitons should never fail if kept properly greased.
Frank - You guys have been waiting a long time for these guns & been *very* patient and you don't know how much I appreciate that...I want these rifles to have the original seals 50 years from now ;)
All the rifles will be lubed with divers silicon on the felt wipers for the piston assembly. Due to the bearing surface area of the new seals its going to need a true grease for a buttery smooth pump stroke.
I've been using divers silicon on my 1322 Super Pumper for 6 years and I haven't had *any* issues - the pump stroke is unbelievable and nothing like using traditional pump piston lube. I have to credit Gil Irvin for that idea when I bought his triple O ringed flat top piston for my 1322.
I'm in my shop this morning working on my mini lathe modifying the check valves and piston heads and machining the little Teflon check pin seals.
I'm assembling a .22 first as soon as I'm finished & will run it over the chrony if there's time - if I run out of light it will be first thing in the morning.
I'll be posting daily pics through Saturday - I'm in the home stretch guys!!!
Mike
-
Those are some beefy o-rings. Looking good.
Thanks for the progress pictures. Looking forward to seeing them as they come along.
-
Matt - They're Viton 75
I was going to use Mil Spec 90 Duro Urethane 206's but my supplier is out - the Urethane seals are also very stiff and hard to work with...these Vitons should never fail if kept properly greased.
Mike
Okay. I use mil spec 90 in all my pumpers.
-
Here's the new piston assembly...the follower ring at the back is still a 113...the 206's make those look wimpy and we thought 'those' were an upgrade!
:)
Mike
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151104_085154.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151104_085154.jpg.html)
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Here's the difference between the pistons for 113 O rings vs the pistons for 206 O rings.
Mike
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151104_103220.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151104_103220.jpg.html)
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Ok guys i finalized the monocore design for the full shroud today. On full power the pellet striking the target at 25 yards is louder then the shot. Definitely back yard friendly. To be honst if I would have shot it this way at first ai would have thought it didn't have much power.
If I drop the fill presure to 1400 psi and turn the hammer spring out .200 I get 5 shots at 25 yards under an inch spread all with more then enough power for big squirrls and the like and its super quiet. Each shot on this power takes 10 pumps to refill. This gun is super easy to tune for whatever power and loudness you want. And so far accuracy at different power levels are amazing. If you pump up for every shot then they are making one hole groups on high or low power. Right now im working on figuring out my zeros for the different power levels. I can get 3 super consistant shots at full power then power down and get another 5 shots and end at 1000 psi.
High power seemse to take about 20 pumps per shot. If your in good shape pumping this gun is not that hard.
I pumped up from empty to 2000 psi and it took less then 5 minutes. This is not a gun your going to take plinking but for a hunting rifle its amazing! Super accurate field tunable and you will never run out of air. Its a great feeling to walk outside and just take a tin of pellets and my gun and not need anything else.
Some things to note are that it is a bit hard to chamber the .25 jsb pellets in this barrel but i think that is part of wny it is so accurate with these.
Loading the gun after each shot is actually faster then I first thought it would be. One important thing to note is when you cock it dont slip off the cocking knob or you will fire the rifle. As long as you always cock befor you chamber a pellet then this wont be a danger but if you decide to chamber a pellet then cock it you could actually fire it if you slip just like an old singe action revolver.
If you guys have more questions please fire away!
I don't personally have a chronograph so i cant give numbers yet but should chrono soon
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Oh forgot to mention that I got a racoon tonight with the pumper! It was attacking my dog. Flashlight in hand and my illuminated reticle came in handy. Thought at first I might need a follow up shot but the first one did the trick
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Sounds like it's working great!.... Your reports are much appreciated....
Bob
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John, this is for you...I hope your health gets better & I'll see what I can do when we do our first big run of guns.
#2 will be fully assembled tonight - here's a sneak preview...
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151106_181908418.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151106_181908418.jpg.html)
This one is going to Texas - it'll be used in a filmed hunt that'll be aired on the Outdoor Channel (don't know when yet - I'll post when I know the airing date) and you guys might want to pick up a December issue of Gun Digest ;)
Because of time constraints it couldn't wait for the monocores - I machined 5 Delrin cups with an internal boring @ 1". Just blowing through it quickly it has that Hollywood quiet gun whistle to it.
I'll be testing it tomorrow & will take sound decibel readings as I shoot.
The cups are .900" long and spaced cup towards muzzle - the first chamber vents very freely into the shroud...it ought to be pretty dang quiet.
All of the major parts for everything have been completed - what's taking me time is some little detail parts (like a custom stainless breech locating pin), every stock has needed fitment work and then locating, drilling & tapping for the forearm. The forearms lining up with the rear stock has been my greatest ... Uh ... Challenge, so to speak. I'm getting it done right but its all hand finish work that doesn't go quickly.
I'm doing each rifle as I go so I know each one is perfect.
I'll post completed pics in an hour or so with range data to follow tomorrow. This one is also .25 caliber.
Mike
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That looks sweet!
I did some more testing today and a bit of hunting! :)
(http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t495/jeremyvanschoonhoven/20151106_164650_zps8bu1olvk.jpg) (http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/jeremyvanschoonhoven/media/20151106_164650_zps8bu1olvk.jpg.html)
Pellet went through the ear right where I had the cross hairs. It was about a 25 yard shot.
(http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t495/jeremyvanschoonhoven/20151106_164713_zpsvk9tyo6k.jpg) (http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/jeremyvanschoonhoven/media/20151106_164713_zpsvk9tyo6k.jpg.html)
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I gotta get me one of those Vortex scopes you have! ;)
Mike
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The scope im actually using on this bad boy is a 4-14x40ffp made by discovery its only $350 or something close to that.
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Ok everybody, I solved the check valve seal failure issue - one other problem I've been working on is leaky gauge manifolds through the threads.
The nipples and Prod adapter were all 'standardized' (read threads chased & tapped deeper) to avoid the threads locking up before the manifold bulb was online with the tube body & resulting in the entire manifold assembly sitting too far away from the tube so it wouldn't set all the way into the stock.
I tried blue Loktite under my Teflon tape followed by more blue Loktite on top & still had slow leak down.
*So* - I've fallen in love with the the machinability of Teflon & its sealing characteristics...I started off with 3/4" OD Teflon Rod - turned it down to .550" OD and center drilled it 3/8".
The new secondary seal is .250" tall.
I thread it onto a bare manifold nipple - screw it on halfway so it begins to crush form to the Prod adapter & tube - remove it - do my Loktite/Teflon tape/Loktite - install the new seal over all of that - then screw the manifold into battery.
There's no way it can leak down through the threads now.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151106_203427458.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151106_203427458.jpg.html)
This was the last issue I was trying to come up with a solution for. It's full steam ahead now ;)
Mike
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so when exactly can I order one of these bad boys? And how much for a .25?
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Here's #2 all finished in all Her Glory ;)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151107_112905.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151107_112905.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151107_113005_1.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151107_113005_1.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151107_112942.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151107_112942.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151107_114453360.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151107_114453360.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151107_133435863.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151107_133435863.jpg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151107_154120.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151107_154120.jpg.html)
She's not mouse fart quiet but sounds like 2 pumps out of a Benji 392.
Mike
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Both are very purty.
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The shrouded gun looks very sexy
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The Shrouded rifle weighs 8.2 lbs according to my digital home scale (not precise, but close) - I know someone had asked earlier.
Mike
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Cannot wait for the big production run, these 2 are enough for me to want to invest in one. Badly too. Keep up the stunning work Mike! Very excited to see where they film for Outdoor Channel as well!
-Medi
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Thanks!
The *true* production models wont be as pretty as these to keep costs lower - we will be using an ambidextrous stock instead of the thumbhole...it'll be a custom stock just for the Millennium from Boyd's. Our first run will be 100 rifles & I'm sure those will go quickly.
At least it will be a matter of ordering a rifle & it will ship immediately...we will have the 3 basic color options (Nutmeg, Pepper & Camo).
More to come...I'll post pics of each rifle as I finish them. One thing for sure is these are *Powerhouses*!!!
:)
Mike
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what's the price going to be for a .25?
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HAHA - I'm not going there...I've eaten almost $300 a rifle on this first run because I said a certain price & it cost that much more to just have them built. I'll post it when we have everything done, I have some rifles available to sell/ship.
Mike
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Went to the rage today even though it was windy and raining here is what I got. Remember the wind was bad even my 223 rem was affected quite a bit. What made me really happy was how there was hardly any vertical movment. This is my first and only group cause the wend got worse.
(http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t495/jeremyvanschoonhoven/20151108_173322_zpsy8kfv8gi.jpg) (http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/jeremyvanschoonhoven/media/20151108_173322_zpsy8kfv8gi.jpg.html)
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You forgot to post that it's a 100 yard group LOL :)
Mike
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Lol yea that might make more sense to people if they knew it was at 100 yards. It was actually quite funny my group was better then the guy shooting his AR right next to me. He didn't know how to shoot in the wind at all.
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Ok guys, Jeremy has been hard at work on these Shroud monocores & LDC's for the guys that ordered them with those.options.
All the parts will be black Class II anodized - the Shrouds have an extension to aid with objective clearance on longer scopes & to give more front end volume.
Here's a pic of the spacer:
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151110_161334934.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151110_161334934.jpg.html)
The LDC's are 1.25" OD carbon fiber with a 1/16" thick wall (same as the shroud & *very* stout!) & the CF tube is 9" long.
Both systems do not use any set screws - they tension together using the end cap.
The Shroud holds the barrel in tension & the LDC's can be easily taken apart for cleaning.
I'll be selling LDC's too once this batch is shipped out.
If you want to use your LDC on a different caliber rifle you only need to purchase the correct Monocore & end cap which will save you some money.
These aren't cheap but.you get what you pay for! On top of that they're drop dead sexy :)
Here's a pic of an LDC tube mounted on Jeremy's 20" barreled Millennium... I'll post pics of the Monocore assembly as soon as they're finished.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151110_172715.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151110_172715.jpg.html)
The LDC's will have a flat rear cap so you can use them on whatever air gun you choose - I like the slip over the barrel rear cap but it makes them Millennium specific.
The monocores themselves will be laser engraved *For Air Gun Use Only* as well as having the caliber they're made for on them.
I love working with Noveske machinists ;)
Mike
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Here's a teaser guys...the 3D print model broke when removing it t but the production monocores will be all aluminum.
Jeremy printed & tested quite a few different designs - this one read 80 decibels... Cocking the rifle read 85 ;)
There will be flats on each side at the barrel muzzle that are barrel diameter for free venting into the shroud.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/received_1633398900243311_1.jpeg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/received_1633398900243311_1.jpeg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/received_1633398863576648.jpeg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/received_1633398863576648.jpeg.html)
Mike
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I have the first .22 numbers...
JSB Jumbo 15.89 grain shot string: (no pumping in between shots - RVA bottomed out)
2000 psi start
1002
977.9
950.9
918.1
878.1
829.3
Reconfirmed 2000 psi for 1 shot
992.6
I think I'm going to have a happy customer.
Mike
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Jeremy is hard at work on Shrouds & LDC's...man, these Shrouds are going to be *amazing* when they're done!
He's knurling the muzzle caps so they can disassembled by hand...I can't wait for that Monocore to be milled out!
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151112_144643.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151112_144643.jpg.html)
Mike
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Thanks for the numbers on the .22
Looks like with some adjustments it should get around five shots at 900ft/s . . . I think that's about perfect.
Looking forward to seeing more.
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Shrouds & LDC's will be finished next week sometime...the monocores still need a couple small slots milled at the front bt *look* at that thing! ;)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/received_1634061910177010.jpeg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/received_1634061910177010.jpeg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/received_1634061840177017.jpeg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/received_1634061840177017.jpeg.html)
Mike
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Do the monocores get covered ?
This is new to me air gunning .
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Yes, there's a .002" slip fit between the Monocore & the carbon fiber tube that slides over it...those expansion chambers are huge!
Mike
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Will you monocore work on a P.B. ;)
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They're laser engraved *For Airgun Use Only*
All I'll say is the design is extremely stout.
Mike
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Airgun only is good .
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Here's a shot string Jeremy did today...the group is at 53 yards. No pumping between shots.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/Screenshot_2015-11-14-13-54-36.png) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/Screenshot_2015-11-14-13-54-36.png.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20151114_162518122.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20151114_162518122.jpg.html)
Mike
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Looks great.
How is the assembly going?
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Impressive
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Looks great.
How is the assembly going?
It's going good - It's been slow due to machining little parts as I go for each rifle...teflon check pin seal, stainless breech guide pin, shortening the hardened link pin from Mac 1, making stainless pivot pins, fitting and checking each magazine for fit & function. The magazines, while machined, still require about 40 minutes of hand finishing for deburring & smoothing out all sharp corners.
Then I still have to assemble the rifle, locate the pump arm holes for the forearm, disassemble the rifle, drill & tap, then reassemble.
It's the final fitting that takes quite a bit of time, but I'm doing about 1 rifle a day.
I have 5 rifles left to assemble.
Mike
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Assembly time on the first run always takes longer.
It's a learning curve .
Once you have everything in place.
It get's easier I know by experience .
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To comment on the monocore and powder burners these are designed only for air gun use and the threads are different then that used on powder burners. If someone gets the bright idea of trying one of these on a powder burner there is a good chance it will rip apart and casue serous injury and it is a federal cirm with 10 years in prison.
If you make or posess some kind of adaptor to make an airgun ldc mount to a pb then the adaptor will be considered an illegal item.
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To comment on the monocore and powder burners these are designed only for air gun use and the threads are different then that used on powder burners. If someone gets the bright idea of trying one of these on a powder burner there is a good chance it will rip apart and casue serous injury and it is a federal cirm with 10 years in prison.
If you make or posess some kind of adaptor to make an airgun ldc mount to a pb then the adaptor will be considered an illegal item.
I'd also like to add they are designed to slow the flow of *air* which has started at a given pressure and is decreasing in value - They are *not* designed to slow down the flow of hot, expanding gasses from a firearm.
That is why the chambers are so large.
I work in a prison...you guys don't want to live in one.
Mike
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Just an update been shooting my rifle quite a bit and am shooting 25.4gr jsb pellets through it and spent a few hours yesterday trying different hammer spring adjustments and different fills as you can see my most consistent shots came in right around 800fps this is on a 1900 psi fill. With a 2000 psi fill I could get 850 to 860 fps for one shot then it dropped to about 800fps for the 2nd shot. Believe it or not there is a wide range of pressure on my rifle where I get the same POI at 50 yards. 1900 psi down to 1400 psi.
At 25 yards I can get 5 shots with less then half inch POI shift.
My rifle takes 17 to 19 pumps per shot depending on the pressure.
If you want to pump less per shot you can change the settings quickly to shoot at 650 or 700 and use about 10 to 12 pumps per shot.
I have my shroud on and it is only half built and even now it is super quiet. Shooting the gun is quieter then pumping it.
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Mike,
Sounds like they are starting to come together. Thanks for the more in-depth update.
Looking forward to seeing them.
Thanks
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With low pressure and at about 500fps this thing is super efficient. I have not dialed in the shot curve yet but 5 shots from 480fps to 550 climbing each shot with a 1000 psi fill. I wanted to shoot another mag but the rain hit right then.
Took me only 20 pumps to get back up to 1000psi so this is an average of 13.8fpe! This is good enough for small game without blowing it apart.
I want to find a tune that I can quickly go to for low power after I have shot my 3 good shots at high power so I can get another 5 accurate shots. So much research to dig into the potential of this rifle.
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My .30 cal does 585 fps on only 680 psi!
I will play around with every possible combination of tunes and post all of it as soon as I have time.
Mike
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Great report .
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What is the comparison of pumping effort compared to another rifle .
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I would think its close to 8 to 10 pumps with the 392.
A young kid would have a tough time pumping to 1900 psi but could do 1400 to 1600 psi. You could tune the rifle to get 3 to 5 good shots at what ever pressure your comfortable pumping to.
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Sounds more inviting .Can't wait for the second batch to be in production .
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You could tune the rifle to get 3 to 5 good shots at what ever pressure your comfortable pumping to.
Absolutely!.... It will be interesting once somebody takes the time to experiment and publish shot strings using a 4% ES at different fill pressures.... During development of the original, I detuned the Carbine to non-PAL power in Canada (under 500 fps), and got 8 shots within a 4% ES from a 1000 psi fill.... It only required using a shortened 2240 hammer spring, and a 0.100" diameter transfer port.... It used 460 psi (refilled at 540), and the efficiency was 1.54 FPE/CI.... :o
Bob
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Bob,
I just got a chrono last week so just started playing around with different fill presures in the next few weeks I will try to get some more shot strings up at different power levels. I might machine a guage for quickly and accurately retiring to a given hammer spring setting once I figure out what my low power setting will be.
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Dumb question and probably already asked. But is there another way to fill besides hand pumping fur us partial cripples?
Bob
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Yes there is a foster fill nipple on the side. I use that to fill when I'm doing chrono work. This is not a gun you want to pump all day long. I also fill from my floor pump if I'm not home with my tank. From dead empty to 2000psi it takes about 30 pump strokes with my fx 4 stage pump
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Thanks a lot I might get one of the second round if he goes that far.
Bob
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Has anyone made a video of these things in action? Can't find anything on the old YoobTube
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Not yet hopefully next week when I get my rifle back from the machine shop we are just finishing up the shrouds.
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Yes there is a foster fill nipple on the side. I use that to fill when I'm doing chrono work. This is not a gun you want to pump all day long. I also fill from my floor pump if I'm not home with my tank. From dead empty to 2000psi it takes about 30 pump strokes with my fx 4 stage pump
Wow! I had missed this little bit of info about a foster fill nipple on the side which allows pumping from a
FX pump. Sounds like a lot less pumping and easier pumping than using the Millennium's pump. Wow!
I sure hope there is a 2nd run. I want one!
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Just checking in to see how it's all coming along?
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They're coming along good - I should have them all finished by this Saturday...I had to spend my last days off making slugs as I got too far behind & I'm waiting on Shrouds & LDC's to be finished & delivered anyway.
I'll post pics as they come together...I'm down to 5 that need to be assembled.
Mike
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I hate being the one who asks for updates but if no one else will then I will.
Was hoping to see some pictures of completed rifles over the weekend. How's it going?
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I will have pics up by this weekend.
Mike
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I don't see any pics yet??? David
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Anyone giving feed back on first run ?
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Mike you have mail
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Has anyone heard from Mike? It's been a couple of weeks with no pictures and no updates.
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:o uh-ohhhhhhh! Better send an Amber Alert.
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I'm still here guys...the weather has been bad - I'll get some pics posted Wed on my next day off.
I have to get these rifles range tested...just been waiting for the rain to stop.
Mike
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Did we forget something?
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Should not have made a comment. :-X
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Must be Next wednesday before the holiday .He has other projects .
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Guys try to refrain from the negatives if you feel compelled to comment further unless you have invested and are waiting for one of these rifles and post your inquires to the vendor via a PM . Thanks for your cooperation. Don
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Has everyone received there guns yet?? David November 03, 2014, Dec 19, 2015
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I didn't receive mine jet!!
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Not me. Sporadic updates to this forum.
Paid 12/10 of last year.
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Maarten I'm e mailing you right now.
c670809 I don't even know who you are! PM me or e mail me...your posting information tells me absolutely nothing about you.
I have to secure a few pump arms to pump lever (locate, drill & tap) and they're all done.
I'm still waiting for the monocores to be machined...this seems to be a curse for getting parts for these rifles made.
If you did not order an LDC or a Shrouded rifle I can ship your gun to you right after Christmas.
I will be contacting all of the buyers via e mail or telephone by the end of this next week.
I'm working my State job today through Wednesday from 06:30 - 18:30 PST so you may not hear from me.until Friday after Christmas.
Mike
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No need for the exclamation point. I'm not trying to hide anything. I think I was number 3 who said they wanted a gun but by the time my money got there I was 006.
Matt Hayes
Sparks, NV
Back in 1996 I joined my first forum and it assigned me a user name (c670809). Since then, that's who I've been on any forum. It may not be the most descriptive but it's been mine for so long that it's who I am ;-)
If you want to know more, just ask. Happy to share.
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Thanks Matt - I asked for a PM or an e mail not an open forum message. I will be in touch with you this next week.
Mike
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Mike any updates? Been a long time without much new news on what is going on or pictures
Norm
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I am interested in one of your rifles, can I get some info
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Amazing Work, very impressive!
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What does one of these rifles cost? What are specs sorry but I don't have time to read 44 pages lol...
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What does one of these rifles cost? What are specs sorry but I don't have time to read 44 pages lol...
I think the first production run was around $1200.
Offtopic, but do you go by the moniker antdog on Bladeforums.com?
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Just checking in.. any more photo updates? Curious how the monocores and shrouds are coming along. Excited for any progress.
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Would be nice to see some updates. ????? David
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Here you are Larry - I just had.these pics sent to me.from Jeremy last night while I was on duty...they still need to be laser engraved with caliber & *Airgun Use Only*.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/received_1652116341704900.jpeg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/received_1652116341704900.jpeg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/received_1652116365038231.jpeg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/received_1652116365038231.jpeg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/received_1652116425038225.jpeg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/received_1652116425038225.jpeg.html)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/received_1652116411704893.jpeg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/received_1652116411704893.jpeg.html)
Anyone that's worked with a machinist knows it simply takes.time - I've waited over a month for these to get this far & its a really good CNC shop.
I was kind enough to post this adventure of mine from the very beginning - taking the substantial amount of time it takes for me to upload pics to photobucket, copy & paste & type (just like I am now) only using a phone as I don't have a computer.
Those of you that have said bad.things, made demands for updates and have absolutely nothing vested in one of these rifles have ruined it.
Your complaints have had my Vendor Status threatened many times and it has been again.
I answer e mails in a very timely manner & always have - I've been too busy to take the time to be on here like I used to be and its mostly due to these rifles when I'm not at work.
I've barely had any time to myself in over 1 year & I don't mind but when the mob mentality kicks in from people that shoukd just be quiet and mind they're own business it makes me very angry.
This is the last update I am posting and if the GTA wants to end my Vendor Status because you guys put so much pressure on them to force me to hurry things up then so be it.
The original purchasers know how to contact me.
Mike
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I have every right to question where are the updates sir and will continue to do so as long as I am one of the administrators of this forum and being that we back our vendors with trust to the members and customers of yours. David
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Those of you that have said bad.things, made demands for updates and have absolutely nothing vested in one of these rifles have ruined it.
Your complaints have had my Vendor Status threatened many times and it has been again.
I answer e mails in a very timely manner & always have - I've been too busy to take the time to be on here like I used to be and its mostly due to these rifles when I'm not at work.
I've barely had any time to myself in over 1 year & I don't mind but when the mob mentality kicks in from people that shoukd just be quiet and mind they're own business it makes me very angry.
This is the last update I am posting and if the GTA wants to end my Vendor Status because you guys put so much pressure on them to force me to hurry things up then so be it.
The original purchasers know how to contact me.
Mike
It is a shame that this is the current status of this posting!
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This has been a good thread, and very informative. However, when you made the decision to build these rifles, and make them available for sale, you also took upon yourself the responsibility of customer service, which will always have ups and downs. That being said, you should have expected not only the production delays, but also the need/want for updates by your customers. It's just a part of doing business. Investors always want updates. Those that haven't invested may be interested in purchasing one in the future. Hence why the thread is good- it shows the quality and time invested into each rifle during production. It gives reassurance to those that have already invested that their money hasn't been spent in vain. It also gives potential buyers a warm and fuzzy that the expense is worth it. I'm not saying some people haven't been rude, but wanting updates isn't out of the ordinary.
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Wow....just wow.
I'm really speechless at the moment and THAT is rare for me.
I'll take a few moments to gather my thoughts and will handle a response in private.
Wow....really can't believe some of what I'm reading here.
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As someone with no stake in other than being a member of this forum. Let's please don't start throwing around things that can't be unsaid. I like that Mike is a forum member and also a vendor willing to put himself out there. I also really appreciate the forum moderators for the due diligence. Let things settle as this will all work out in the end.
Dave
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Thanks for the pics Mike. They really are awesome! I didn't know you only do these updates with a phone.
Anyway, stay positive. There's a lot of Aloha in you and the folks here at GTA as well.
Peace brother.
Larry
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Looking good Mike!
WOW doing all the updates and pictures using a phone!! I would have given up a long time ago.
Mike keep your chin up as the light at the end of the tunnel is now visible.
Norm
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Well, I'll be the first one to defend Mike. Most of the guys that do this type of thing, that is make custom items due to their love of the hobby, are not businessmen. They are simply people who love their hobbies so much that they want to bring a truly innovative and extreme precision product to the industry.
I have two hobbies that I am incredibly passionate about. One is airguns, obviously, and the other is folding knives. There are three "tiers" of folding knives. First is production knives. This would be the equivalent of ordering an airgun off of any online website. The second is mid-tech. This would be like the stuff that Jason does with the QB platform. The third is custom. These are handmade with no production line. This is what Mike has done with these airguns. They are truly custom. It may surprise some of you, but to get a truly custom knife, without buying it on the secondary market, you can wait up to 3-4 years just to get a knife made by your favorite maker. One of my closest friends has been on the waiting list for a custom knife for over two years now. It's just how custom stuff works.
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:o
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Awesome picture update Mike! Sounds like you are nearing the end of this production.
I am interested because i'm pretty sure I would buy one even though you have stated that the next batch wouldn't be as customized as this batch. I will admit that I am disappointed that you have stated that you are out of pocket maybe like $300 for each rifle and I haven't seen one post that expressed an interest in helping you out monetarily. That is depressing. I like to think that Airgunners are a big family and you shouldn't let one of your family members suffer. There are different kinds of suffering. It is a two way street though. Please don't give up and please hang in there since you are almost finished. Folk like you who think outside the box should be treated like a treasure. Having the vision and ability to provide a custom product that is so unique is truly special. So don't let the nay sayers get under your skin. Keep up the good work/updates.
Carlos
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I can certainly understand Mike's frustration.... When he started this project, well over a year ago, I gave him the design, free of charge, no strings attached.... He got all excited and quoted a price before he really knew his costs (big mistake), and on top of that offered me a rifle from the first batch.... I hesitantly accepted, and we decided on a .25 and .30 dual caliber setup in a Pepper laminate stock, with no shroud because I live in Canada, as supression of any kind is not allowed here.... To help defray his cost, I arranged for Norm @ DiscosRUs to give Mike a stock for my gun, instead of taking delivery of a refurb Disco I had already paid Norm for.... so now I was into my "free" gun for $175.00.... still a heck of a deal, considering I never asked for anything to start with....
Fast forward to the middle of last year, and Jim, the machinist that Mike was using, had a Stroke, and was unable to continue.... Mike pressed on, determined to finish the first run of guns by himself, with some help from a few GTA members.... He's a busy guy, has a full time job, does volunteer Forest Fire Fighting in the summer, plus makes swaged airgun slugs on the side, and has only shipped one gun I am aware of, and is diligently trying to complete the rest, at the original price of $1200 (single caliber) which all those ordered paid a year ago.... I think for the most part, everyone has been extremely patient, and I must admit that I have felt sorry for Mike that others, who have nothing on the line here, have been quite rude to him in this thread, by demanding updates.... and NO, I'm not talking about our Mods, that is there job, to keep an eye on things and make sure nobody gets ripped off.... I haven't talked to Mike personally since Jim had the stroke, but it seems to me that he is trying his level best to honour the sales he has.... If there is any fault with Mike, it is that he hasn't kept his customers informed....
OK, so everyone's circumstances change over the course of more than a year.... At least one Millennium Pumper has been resold (at the original price) before delivery.... The intention in sending me a gun was that I would tune it and share all my results here on the GTA.... So, I get something for my design and prototype work (even though I didn't request it), and everyone benefits.... Now I am in the situation I would sooner have something else, that will benefit both me and the GTA, and that is a new LabRadar, which is a Doppler Radar Chronograph that I want to use to investigate the Ballistics Coefficients of pellets and bullets.... Not only that, but Mike is in the hole by a couple of grand, and could sure use another gun to sell (mine) to help recoup his costs.... He has NOT asked for my help, and he will be just as shocked as everyone else when I make this suggestion.... but here goes....
If the guys who have already bought Millennium Pumpers from Mike (or other GTA members, if they wish), want to purchase a LabRadar unit (with a couple of necessary accessories) and ship it to me, I will release the gun that Mike is making for me for resale, with him to keep the funds to defray his losses on this first run.... I'll still be out $175, but that will be pretty cheap for a LabRadar.... Others will be out whatever they decide to kick in to get the LadRadar unit, but I think everyone knows they will benefit in the end.... So, it's up to you guys, not me or Mike.... If you don't care that Mike has lost money, then just carry on and wait for your gun, that is entirely your right.... If you feel sorry for Mike, and feel like chipping in some money to buy me a LabRadar, with the result that Mike will have another gun (worth about $1500 with the two calibers) to sell to help bail him out, that's good too.... Here is what I want to release my Millennium Pumper back to Mike so that he can sell it to recoup his losses.... From the LabRadar sales website.... http://www.buymylabradar.com/ (http://www.buymylabradar.com/)
LabRadar Unit - $559.95
LabRadar Padded Case - $39.95
Bench Mount - $29.95
USB Rechargeable Battery Pack - $24.95
SD Card - 4G - $9.95
Airgun Trigger Adapter - $44.95
Airgun Bracket - $10.00
Shipping to me here in BC, Canada.... I will pay the GST and PST when it arrives (12%) plus the Customs clearance charges....
So, that will come to about $800 US funds, and it will have to be done as a pre-order because they are behind in delivery.... It's your call, guys.... I have nothing to lose either way.... I can wait until Mike is finished all the guns, take delivery of mine and then turn around and sell it and buy my LabRadar.... OR we can give Mike back some of the money he has lost as a group.... I think the GTA family will step up to the plate.... It's your call....
BTW, Mike, you still owe me those two Valves I paid for a year ago.... ;D (they were to be shipped with my gun)....
Bob
With no response forthcoming from Mike in over 2 weeks, in all fairness to him, and not wanting to put any further pressure on him.... I have withdrawn this offer....
Thanks to those of you who thought it was a good idea.... but apparently it was not in the cards....
Bob
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Bob,
Have you already pre ordered the setup? Cause they have already sold out and taking preorders for the spring. I want to be on it for you, it won't be much, but maybe a start. How do we get it to you etc. I think you, although you make my head hurt at times, ;D are one of the best assets to this community. So I say set it up and let's go guys. BTW Bob they said credit card would not be charged till shipped, I really don't care for that but I want to help you but not have my card waiting if there is a way.
Bob Nowlin
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Bob,
Have you already pre ordered the setup? Cause they have already sold out and taking preorders for the spring. I want to be on it for you, it won't be much, but maybe a start. How do we get it to you etc. I think you, although you make my head hurt at times, ;D are one of the best assets to this community. So I say set it up and let's go guys. BTW Bob they said credit card would not be charged till shipped, I really don't care for that but I want to help you but not have my card waiting if there is a way.
Bob Nowlin
Set up a paypal account and I will send $10 for the cause of the Labdar
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Before I set up anything, let's see what the response is like....
Bob
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Bob,
Have you already pre ordered the setup? Cause they have already sold out and taking preorders for the spring. I want to be on it for you, it won't be much, but maybe a start. How do we get it to you etc. I think you, although you make my head hurt at times, ;D are one of the best assets to this community. So I say set it up and let's go guys. BTW Bob they said credit card would not be charged till shipped, I really don't care for that but I want to help you but not have my card waiting if there is a way.
Bob Nowlin
Set up a paypal account and I will send $10 for the cause of the Labdar
X2
Set up a PayPal account Bob, and I'll pledge $25 to the cause.
I may only grasp a fraction of your calculations, but I've certainly gained far more than anyone could ever imagine from your help.
Thank you again Sir, for all you do for us.
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What I usually read I have to reread and reread etc. It usually goes in one ear, stays there awhile and then slowly leaks out the other side. and the it starts all over again. Bob is that 800 in USD or CA.
Bob Never mind you already said US funds ???
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I'm one of the original buyers (serial #3) and although I will probably have to sell mine due to helping with my mother's medical bills, I would like to help with what Bob is offering in regard to helping Mike out. Best I can help with is $50 right now. I wish it could be more.
I do also want to give a big thanks to Bob for all he does for our airgun community.
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I'm number eight, A.O. Martinez. (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=79114.msg758639#msg758639) I'll pledge $25 to the cause.
Moreover, I sent Mike a little extra on my final payment to more than defray shipping costs.
Furthermore, I applaud Mike for making significant effort ... to say the least ... to bring an adult-quality, multi-stroke-pneumatic,
whose origin is the U.S. - to the American marketplace.
A MSP that doesn't have a supply-line that leads overseas ... most certainly, not to China.
And, for producing an airgun that has some spare parts that may be readily available through multiple domestic sources.
Not to mention, maintenance and repair services may be found through airgunsmiths familiar with the Disco platform.
It is my hope that Mike's efforts culminate in the establishment of a limited-production Custom Airgun Business.
That, in the Millennium Pumper ... lays the genesis of a successful line of high-quality air guns.
By the way, yesterday in an impromptu manner, I tried to contact Mike to relay some information to him ... within less than a half-hour,
I received a response from Mike.
If a customer needs to communicate with Mike ... he's available.
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If Mike is on board with this, I'll commit to $50.
Frank
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Guys, I don't want to make this a competition, so if you want to post your support, don't feel like you have to put in a number.... The way it's looking, if Mike is on board I think we can do this.... I'll PM him to give him a heads-up.....
Bob
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I want to thank Mike (even though I am not getting a gun) for his dedication, updates, and hard work on this project!!! I am sure GTA is proud to have you as a vender. Thanks Mike!!!
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I'll be glad to send some bux. Regards, Tom
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Has anyone heard from Mike recently? In the past he usually emailed me back. Sometimes it took a couple of emails but he hasn't returned any email in the last two weeks.
Just wanted to see if anyone has heard from him.
Thanks
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I also emailed him 2 weeks ago with no response so far....
Bob
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I have Mike's cell phone number if a moderator needs it to contact him.
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No other way to say it but how many have there guns???? David
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Mike responds to my E Mails the same day or no later than the next day every time. He E Mailed me back 3 times today.
He is still waiting for the LDCs to come back from the anodizer. The anodizer is screwing over him telling him they will be done in a day or two than when he does not receive them they tell him Ohhh we did not get a chance to start them!!
I sold my Serial #1 to someone and Mike is going to ship it to him as soon as I give him the address. It will not have the LDC but when Mike gets it he will ship it to him. All the guns are built and the LDCs are the holdup!
If you have one of Mikes guns E Mail him and ask him to please ship it without the LDC and to ship the LDC as soon as he gets them.
Norm
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Thanks everyone for the responses. I'm glad that I'm not the only one that he's not getting back to but it's frustrating that he is emailing others.
Thanks again,
Matt
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All the shrouds and some of the ldc got shipped yesterday. The anodizing place somehow lost. Some of the ldc's I saw them shipped to them so idk what happened there.
Im hopeing they are just lost but thinking someone may have had sticky fingers
The owner of the machine shop was in a car crash and the shop was closed down so there have been many set backs. Hopefully everyone gets there guns very soon. Mike should have the shrouds Monday or Tuesday.
My gun is working awesome can't wait for you guys to get yours. I know it's been a long wait but I think you will be pleased with the end product
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Boy my luck!! I had Mike ship my gun, which will be here on Monday. Boy now I wish I had waited one more week.
Just my type of luck. No real big deal just need to screw it on.
Norm
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Mike has received some LDCs and the Millennium Pumpers should start to be shipped.
Norm
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Just received a few photos from Mike showing my Millennium Pumper #008 being assembled.
A couple of days ago, Mike offered to ship my Mil-Pumper sans the moderator elements ... I declined his offer.
Instead, I told Mike I would elect to wait until all subassemblies were returned from the respective jobbers.
And, until Mike had the time to assemble the complete Mil-Pumper and test fire my rifle.
When Mike was satisfied with the operation of my Mil-Pumper ... the rifle would be shipped to me.
My point, Mike could have had a not-so-quiet Millennium Pumper in my hands by the end of the week.
And, he would have shipped the monocore (moderator baffled section) directly to me after the anodizing shop was finished processing it.
But, I chose to wait.
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k21/aom22/Pellet%20Rifle/Millennium%20Pumper/th_IMG_20160314_123824_1.jpg) (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/aom22/media/Pellet%20Rifle/Millennium%20Pumper/IMG_20160314_123824_1.jpg.html) (http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k21/aom22/Pellet%20Rifle/Millennium%20Pumper/th_IMG_20160314_123804.jpg) (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/aom22/media/Pellet%20Rifle/Millennium%20Pumper/IMG_20160314_123804.jpg.html) (http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k21/aom22/Pellet%20Rifle/Millennium%20Pumper/th_IMG_20160314_124010.jpg) (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/aom22/media/Pellet%20Rifle/Millennium%20Pumper/IMG_20160314_124010.jpg.html)
Here's the culprit causing the delay in delivery of my Mil-Pumper.
The machine shop fabricating the monocore of the moderator section of the shrouded barrel.
And, the anodizing shop applying a finish to the baffled section.
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k21/aom22/Pellet%20Rifle/Millennium%20Pumper/th_IMG_20160314_123924.jpg) (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/aom22/media/Pellet%20Rifle/Millennium%20Pumper/IMG_20160314_123924.jpg.html) (http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k21/aom22/Pellet%20Rifle/Millennium%20Pumper/th_IMG_20160314_123941.jpg) (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/aom22/media/Pellet%20Rifle/Millennium%20Pumper/IMG_20160314_123941.jpg.html) (http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k21/aom22/Pellet%20Rifle/Millennium%20Pumper/th_IMG_20160314_123906.jpg) (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/aom22/media/Pellet%20Rifle/Millennium%20Pumper/IMG_20160314_123906.jpg.html) (http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k21/aom22/Pellet%20Rifle/Millennium%20Pumper/th_IMG_20160314_123845.jpg) (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/aom22/media/Pellet%20Rifle/Millennium%20Pumper/IMG_20160314_123845.jpg.html)
I have full-confidence in Mike and believe-in the Millennium Pumper Project.
As, I was one of the first-ten original subscribers.
An adult-quality multi-stroke pneumatic is sorely lacking the the U.S. marketplace.
This might be my only chance to own a repeating, high-quality, American-made, pumper.
And, I must say, I expected ... full-well ... there would be delays in completing the original order.
Custom manufacturing can be fraught with design, development and fabrication delays.
Not to mention, NOT being able to manage and control necessary outside support.
Knowing, this was Mike's first attempt at producing a complete air rifle.
Delays, hold-ups and unexpected problems would be "part and parcel" of the Mike's manufacturing learning curve.
The key to managing customer's concerns ... communications.
To this end, Mike has done-well in keeping me informed of the progress ... or, lack thereof ... of my rifle.
Considering, Mike has a full-time job, a part-time business and is contending with the Mil-Pumper work-load as well.
Mike answered all of my emails on a ... reasonably ... timely basis.
Even so, it is to be expected ... NOT everyone will be happy or completely satisfied - that is the nature of any fledgling business.
So, here we are.
My patience may come to fruition in the very near future.
I'll have a Millennium Pumper in my hands.
P.S. Sorry for the small photos ... having problems uploading larger images.
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I'm hesitant to post this for two reasons. I want my gun and I don't like airing dirty laundry. However I believe that those considering purchasing a gun need to know.
It's good to see that there is progress and I hope it they ship soon. I'm not holding my breath. It always seems to be something.
I don't have a LDC or a shroud so my gun has never been waiting on either of those.
On January 7th Mike told me that he had off the 12th and 13 and would get it shipped to me by then. Nothing was shipped and no updates from him. I emailed him after the 13th and on the 14th he told me that he would get it out on the 16th.
Not shipped, no email then on the 21st he said he still had to put the pump arm on and then he would send it by Monday the 25th.
Not shipped and no email. He would never update me unless I sent an email and asked if he shipped it like he said he would. One time I tried three times over two weeks before he would contact me. Now he won't return my emails at all.
Apparently my barrel is glued to the receiver. My gun is a .25 and .22. He finally told me about the problem and said that if he couldn't get it fixed that he will mail me the gun with the .25 barrel and an LDC and pellets to make up the cost of the gun. I said that I would prefer both barrels but at this point I would take anything.
No updates. I sent him a note a few weeks ago and asked him to send the gun and the barrel and I would take care of it myself and not hold him responsible if I broke it.
Nothing from him.
I have no doubt it will be an amazing gun but I have to say this is among the worst customer service and communication I've seen in 42 years.
I also know that things can change. I remember that years ago Dave G was way behind on orders, got sick and left a lot of people out in the cold. He recovered and he recovered his reputation. I'm hopeful that Mike does the same.
Matt Hayes
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Okay, who has received what?
:)
The suspense is killing me. I heard or read that some were actually shipping.
Need to feed the addiction and see photos and hear the stories.
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My Millennium arrived and the LDC is on the way.
I would post pictures but I sold my Millennium months ago and I think it would be up to the new buyer to post pictures.
All I can say it is one beautiful AG
Norm
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I wonder if the "no pics" or it didn't happen apply in this particular scenario?
I would love to eye ball it. Which stock did you get? What caliber is it?
We need some answers --- please? Are you keeping it until it is whole or
did you ship it out already? Is the buyer a member of this forum?
We understand that you can't actually "shoot it" but pics should be okay.
I vote that you just ask the owner if you can post pics so that we can drool a little.
Carlos
My Millennium arrived and the LDC is on the way.
I would post pictures but I sold my Millennium months ago and I think it would be up to the new buyer to post pictures.
All I can say it is one beautiful AG
Norm
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I really don't understand seriously. David
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I can understand if your the boss and the work force, and the schedueling with other needed parts and services falls through as promised , can make everyon look bad , with no one at any given moment having any bad intentions , but seems those in need of reports are not gettint that , perhaps a blog that pre order people can view that is up dated weekly may help ?
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When the gun arrived I opened the box and took a good look at it to make sure it was what I was expecting to receive. Seeing it was already sold to another person I did not take a picture of something that belongs to someone else and why should I have. I boxed it up and got it ready to ship and would not unpack it just to take a few pictures to post here. I had lost interest in this gun months ago and did not need a picture of something I had lost interest in, did not own and did not ever really own!!
It's not my gun, I have no interest in it and did not want a picture of it. Simple as that! It has been shipped to the new owner.
Norm
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this thread has so much bad energy im amazed it has not been sent to non productive post gate... I was excited about the prospect at the beginning, now its just souring up the forum...
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It is unfortunate but promises were made and one delay after another have created much of the negative energy
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I wanted to be fair and give everyone an update.
Mike contacted me a couple of days ago and has been very helpful. We've had several emails go back and forth in a timely manner.
He said my gun would ship on Wednesday.
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I was in email contact with Mike a couple of days ago.
Between the time I sent my message until a response arrived was less than 20-minutes.
Moreover, we exchanged two more emails on a very timely basis.
He was working at his "real job" as a Correctional Officer ... I'm a Correctional Officer - too.
And, we touched bases about the progress on my rifle.
Mine doesn't have a separate LDC .... instead, the moderation core will be integral with the shroud.
Mike is making progress ... albeit, not as rapidly as "the kid in me" would I'd like.
Even so, knowing my rifle is nearing completion has me giddy with anticipation.
As such, I've been scope shopping.
When #8 arrives, I hope to have a proper scope and mount already in my possession.
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When #8 arrives, I hope to have a proper scope and mount already in my possession.
I'm curious to know which scope & mount you decided on for your MP#8.
Care to share?
P.S.
I bought Millennium Pumper #3 from Larry in Hawaii a few months back.
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I'm a bit more curious...and actually NEED to know. Can folks that ordered the Millennium Pumper chime in on their airguns please? Have you received them or shipping notices?
How about a roll call and progress report?
Thanks!!!
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I am waiting on Millennium Pumper serial number 3.
Mike informed me that mine was part of the lost batch of LDC's.
He told me that the LDC's had been located and he should have them soon.
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I'm waiting on number 6. Mike told me it would ship Wednesday but it didn't. On Thursday he emailed me and told me what he was fixing and that he would take it to a gun shop and it would ship on Saturday or Monday.
I have to say that it's the first time that he has told me that he missed the promised ship date without me hounding him for weeks. I appreciate that for the first time, in my experience, he is communicating.
I've never cared as much about the shipping date as a lack of communication. Mike seems to be working hard on that and I appreciate it.
Matt Hayes
Reno, NV
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Yep, communication is the KEY to any relationship or transaction.
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I'm still here guys...I *do* check the thread and my gate at least once a week to see if there's any questions that need to be answered.
I'm sorry I've been so busy lately...
The LDC's (3 of them) were shipped from the anodizer to the wrong company - they've been located & I was told they will ship to me this next week.
Any rifles not shipped out this next week will absolutely be out the door within the next 2 weeks.
There's 3 out there already - 1 in Oregon, 1 in Texas & 1 in Indiana (I think). Two are Shrouded .25 cals & the other is a .30 cal.
I promise I will *make* time to post at least a weekly update in here. I also have a 10,000 slug backorder to deal with but getting the Millenniums out is my #1 priority right now.
Thanks for hanging in there...I'm almost through this crazy storm I've been living in the last 1+ year.
Mike
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Just an update... There will be 3 more rifles shipping out this week & I'm finally making the time to set up the computer Dave was kind enough to send me.
I will be posting updates & pics every Tuesday (that's one of my days off from my State job).
Mike
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Thanks for the update we have ALL been waiting for.
Keep us informed Mike and good luck. I hope smoother roads are ahead.
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Thanks for updating Mike, it means a lot.
Excited to see these getting into peoples hands.
Glad your busy so long as it doesn't mean overwhelmed... wish I could come help you :)
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I stayed home today just to work on Millenniums... I will make sure & keep you guys up to date.
Worst case scenario is I'll post updates & pics every Tuesday like I stated earlier.
Mike
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Hi Mike
Nice seeing you posting again. My Millennium was shipped off to my buyer in Iowa and have not heard back from him. It looked great and I am OK with having sold it. That Master Hunter 001 serial # sure looked good on the side of it!
Keep the updates coming for your customers and all the interested GTA members.
If I lived closer to you I would love to help you catchup on your bullet orders. Ohhh well not much I can do from NH to help you out.
Norm
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I have not bought one of the Millennium Pumpers but I followed the thread out of curiosity so I jumped back in here to see whats been going on with them lately. I was very surprised to see what had transpired since my last visit quite awhile ago. Heres my story of dealing with Mike: Last year I asked about his slugs performance in a particular pcp in one of his threads. Mike replied and sent me a sample of slugs to try out at no cost even tho I would have gladly paid for them he said no give them a try and see how they work for you. Unfortunately my pcp didnt like them. So when I seen a thread Mike had started about a new style he was working on I asked in the thread if anyone had tried them out in the brand of pcp I had. Mike quickly replied and sent me another sample of the new design without me even asking, again at no cost and both samples came in his screw top tins to boot. I was impressed that Mike would eat the cost of his slugs, tins, his time and the shipping to give a potential customer a chance to try out the product. I am glad to see Mike is starting to catch up and get Millennium Pumper out to the customers. I know hes a stand up guy from how he treated me so no doubt he will provide what he promised. Mike hang in there and push forward you will get there. Sorry for the little rant ;)
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LDP,
Well Said.
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I would certainly hope when folks received their guns (and three already have) that a full report of looks and performance would be posted. Where are they? Or am I missing them?
:)
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Dave,
Jeremy is the only one that has posted about his Millennium Pumper and it sounds great. His blue stock looks really nice! He is getting good groups. I wonder how the MP will do with the Rat Sniper Slugs?
Hey, I am really pumped up about my recent trip to the casino.
I easily made up what I invested in buying Millennium Pumper #3.
I am one happy dude!.
Carlos
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Hi guys!
Here's my Tuesday update...
The bad: Drilling & tapping pump levers has been a real pain...filled in the factory holes with cold weld & the bit still walked - drilled out factory holes & tapped, filled with a set screw and tried drilling the holes that line up with the forearm holes...ended up with a dull bit that won't drill. Nobody in town had a 9/64" bit so I made the 90 mile round trip into town & bought a few more...will try to finish in the morning.
I refuse to use the factory holes as it leaves a gap between the stock & forearm and looks like &^^&.
The *Good*:
Hers a pic the owner of #MH001 just sent me with a FFP scope on it - he hasn't zereod it yet so this is all I have to post...he watches this thread - maybe he will chime in when he is ready.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/1460514185727.temp.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/1460514185727.temp.jpg.html)
I'll post/update more as I have it.
Mike
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The pump arm/lever is hardened.
Drilling hardened material is not easy.
Try using a short or stub carbide center-drill to create a "starter hole" or "pilot hole"
prior to using a carbide stub drill.
Stub drills/center-drills are much stiffer that a standard length counterparts.
http://www.travers.com/stub-drills/c/297815/ (http://www.travers.com/stub-drills/c/297815/)
Also, step drill the hole ... drill a pilot hole using a smaller drill-bit first.
Then, finish-drilling the hole to final size.
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#006 is shipping today to Matt in Nevada.
2000 psi fill, no pumps between shots:
Kings
895
880
843
31gr Rat Snipers
804
No time for anything else...I'm sure he will post his thoughts when he's had a chance to play with it.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20160416_101007079_HDR.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20160416_101007079_HDR.jpg.html)
Mike
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Good Job Mike. Going to change the scope rings out today and might get MH001 sighted in unless the pull of the road is just to great.
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Yes!!! Please post your thoughts on that .30 cal Beast ;D
Mike
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Tuesday update: The LDC's have not shown up yet...still waiting on them.
I've been working on slugs today...I have some upset customers that have been waiting too long for their orders so I'm getting those filled...I'll post some Millennium progress/pics tomorrow when I work on the rifles.
Mike
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Thanks for the update.
Mine should be here tomorrow.
Matt
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Still waiting for them to "Arrive?" or still waiting for them to be "shipped" to you?
Tuesday update: The LDC's have not shown up yet...still waiting on them.
Mike
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Still waiting for the 3 that were shipped from the anodizer to the wrong company... They were shipped back to the machine shop - I'm still waiting for them to be shipped to me.
There are two .25 cal & one .22 cal monocores that went missing...these are what I'm waiting for.
Mike
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Just thought I would let everyone know that mine arrived on Wednesday. I haven't had much time to play with it yet.
I shot a few stings over the chrony . . .@ 2000 psi and the RVA all the way in I got: 900, 885, 862,823,763
After playing with it for a few minutes still at @ 2000 psi with the RVA 3 turns out I got : 845, 856, 848, 832 and the last at 791 with 1050 PSI.
My gauge was off a bit so it appeared to be more than 2000 psi but it wasn't.
I was trying to get five solid shots. Looks like that is not going to happen but it does get four great shots. Keep in mind that mine has the 25 inch barrel.
When I have more time I'll write up my thoughts so far.
For those who are interested, I went with the Vortex 2-8X32. So far I like it a lot.
There are some kinks that I need to get worked out of the gun but we'll get them figured out.
If you have questions I'll try to answer them as I have time.
Matt
(http://i.imgur.com/fShz6YW.jpg)
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Wow! What a stunner (in more ways than one).
I guess your MP is .25cal. Did you test with JSB's?
What kinks? If you back out to 3 1/2 or 4 turns maybe you will get your 5 solid shots.
Looks like you didn't order the LDC. How loud is it?
So with the RVA all the way in it yields 4 solid shots. Not bad for a hunting scenario.
Very Very Nice! Are you still smiling?
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cnjl3-
Yes, I guess I should have been clear. Those results are with the regular JSB's in .25.
With more turns out the first shot drops to low to be where I want. I'm happy with four shots, I just keep tinkering and trying to get 5. I think I will have to drop the pressure and change the spring to get 5 almost equal shots. But, I'm not sure it's worth it.
I didn't order the LDC because I already have one. It's about as loud as you would expect. It's not backyard friendly without one. But with one it's nice and tame.
The Good:
It’s a pumper!
It’s a multi-shot pumper
It’s very pretty
The machine work looks great
It puts out 4 shots at 40 ft/lbs that are pretty consistent
It can put out more power with more pressure
It was packed great
(http://i.imgur.com/kiLRWOP.jpg)
The Kinks:
It had a leak when it got to me
The gauge manifold was tapped too deep. Because it's an NPT thread it needs to be tight but you can't tighten it or it bottoms out on the gun before getting tight. To make maters worse the pump lever was bumping it slightly. So even though Mike wrapped it in Teflon tape, when the pump lever would move it started leaking. I fixed it by putting two very thin copper washers under it, wrapping it in Teflon and blue locktite. Also I added a piece of leather under the pump arm to keep it from hitting the CO2 bulb. At some point I'll remove the excess wood.
(http://i.imgur.com/igIn2x0.jpg)
The magazine/fill probe has issues.
The magazine is machined too tightly causing the fill probe oring to get caught and torn on it. It also makes it very hard to push the probe through the magazine. I'm working on that right now. I've drilled out one hole but I want to take is slowly so I don't mess anything up.
The piece at the end of the carbon fiber on the barrel is not properly aligned on my gun.
It causes the pellet to strike the end of my LDC. It's not off by much. The best I can measure shows .004 but it seems to be enough to cause issues. I'll machine it square when I get the barrel off.
(http://i.imgur.com/vgwkV1V.jpg)
On my gun the barrel was accidentally epoxied to the receiver.
I ordered a .25 and a .22 but right now I only have a .25. The barrel was epoxied to the receiver. Mike wasn't able to get it off so I asked him to send it to me. When I have time I plan on making a fixture and heating the receiver up with a torch to loosen the epoxy.
The Stuff I Don’t Care About But Some Might:
The stock looks good but if you look close you can see where dust and lint got in the finish.
Some scratches from assembly
When empty it wouldn't fill by pumping. Even with it the bolt pulled back, it needed a tank to get the valve to seat.
If you’re not careful it will pinch you. The older Sheridans and Benjamins have rounded corners that don't bite you. This doesn't. I think it makes it look better but I have one large bruse on my chest and two on my hand because I wasn't careful.
(http://i.imgur.com/Ey4Du5I.jpg)
Overall, I like it. I don't think a gun that cost this much should have these issues but I'm willing to deal with them because there is nothing else out there like this gun. Mike has been very responsive recently with email and communication. I'm sure that over time he will get all of the kinks worked out.
Here are a few more pictures for you:
(http://i.imgur.com/BGKlWoD.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/B9OR4QC.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/zkxazAx.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/68nIuIp.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/GWx2pO7.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/PJqHBys.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/ucfgyiQ.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/DuxKzhY.jpg)
Matt
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Ok is it me or do none of the pictures show up???
Norm
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Ok is it me or do none of the pictures show up???
Norm
None of them show up for me. :(
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They're showing up fine here in Opera but not in Chrome...which is ironic because the pictures are hosted on Google.
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yea I dont see them in chrome either
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Hmmm...
Using IE11 here, pictures showing fine.
Just tried Chrome, no go. No pictures, just an empty box.
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Me too IE11 just fine.
Bobn
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old firefox with javascript and cookies disabled from anything google - works fine.
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Im on Chrome and they were up earlier for me. Now they are gone. Nice looking rifle.
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Sorry guys, I'm not sure what's going on. They are working fine for me. They're hosted on Google. When I get home tonight I'll see if I can do something different.
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I saw them all up this morning, but now can't see any of them. Mozilla Firefox both times.
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IE11, no photos visible in reply #946....
Bob
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I am using IE 11
Reply # 935 & 937 pictures are OK
Reply # 944 & 946 pictures do not show up
Norm
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LOL
Saw them at work. Get home, running W7 and IE11, no go. Black boxes with X. Even right clicked to copy properties of photo, opened a web page to one and get a white dash. No picture.
Guess I have to go back to work to see them again. Nah...not till Monday.
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Alrighty. I've uploaded them all to a different image host. Hope they work for everyone now.
Matt
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Pictures work great for me now.... That is a work of art....
Bob
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Using Bing: Pictures were gone yesterday. All are visible today.
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Thought I would let everyone know that I got the .25 barrel off today. It didn't go quite like I planned ;-)
I made a fixture to hold the barrel in the vice without damaging it. While I was trying to figure out what to use on the receiver with hurting it, I decided to try it with my hands. The barrel started spinning inside the carbon fiber.
Took the carbon fiber off. Secured the receiver and then unscrewed the barrel by hand.
If you are interested in pictures you can see them here: http://imgur.com/a/21jDN (http://imgur.com/a/21jDN)
Any suggestions on what epoxy would be best to re-glue the barrel and carbon fiber?
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So when you glue on the carbon fiber sleeve how will you keep the barrel in proper alignment?
I'm new to this barrel switching. Can someone explain why the barrel needs a carbon fiber sleeve.
I would think just the barrel alone would be simpler and cheaper. Is the sleeve's purpose to dampen barrel harmonics? I do like the front barrel support though.
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Others can explain the harmonics better than me. My brain is simple so here is my simple understanding. Stiffer is better. The carbon fiber allows the barrel to be both lighter and stiffer. Someone else who knows more can more fully explain it.
As to the alignment . . . The receiver has an area where the carbon fiber sleeve rides on so that aligns the back. Then Mike machined a small aluminum spacer that aligns the front. The hard part is keeping the epoxy out of the threads.
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I have read that if you grease the threads that will keep the adhesive off.
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Well, no pics to update with yet - I'm still doing some parts finishing on my mini lathe (Teflon sleeving the rest of the bolts).
Today is my Monday at my State job - I start vacation for 9 days beginning next Tuesday so I will be on the Millenniums full time one day & slugs the next then alternating days between the two until *everything* is finished & shipped.
They're coming guys...still nothing in the missing LDC's :( I'm not getting any texts back on my inquiries either.
Mike
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Wow Mike, those thing missing THIS long makes one wonder. Did they get waylaid somewhere along the line by prying eyes?
But even if that were true, you think someone would have a knock at the door already.
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I agree..... more and more they sound lost/stolen. I would prefer my rifle be shipped and then later if they are located I would gladly pay shipping for the LDC.
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I was told they were located then shipped back to the machine shop & were supposed to be shipped to me...that was over a week ago :(
I'm missing two .25 & one .22 monocores...only one .25 was for me - the other two are for customer rifles.
I'm not giving up yet - I heard the machine shop owner was having some health issues & I haven't heard from Jeremy in awhile...he was at a mountain bike expo in Monterey...I guess I'll know for sure if everybody is still *unavailable* in another week.
Mike
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The missing LDC's showed up yesterday...I've been busy in my shop working on guns.
Here's one of them that's ready to ship...I'll update more rifles & pics when I make time for it.
Mike
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/mhossack/IMG_20160505_144700_1.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/mhossack/media/IMG_20160505_144700_1.jpg.html)
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Glad the LDC's ended up making it back to you,
rifle looks great! 8)
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18 days since any posts. Those last 3 airguns make it to their homes?
Sure would like to see and hear from owners!!!
And Mike.
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Still waiting for Millennium Pumper number 3 - last email from Mike said he still needs to drill & tap pump lever
for the forearm. I'm glad that he finally received the missing LDC's because one of them belongs to my MP.
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Did someone receive Millennium pumper serial number 004?
Its a .25 whit the Forest Camo, satin finish and the straight cut forearm??
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This gun was mine, and payed in full.
However I didn't needed it anymore and was looking to sell it.
Mike didn't allow me to sell it on my own, as he wanted to sell it him self for $300 more than I payed.
He promised a full refund several time in the last year, but never did.
And stopped replying to my emails.
i didn't wanne post this on a open forum, but Mike leaves me no choice
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OUCH
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This gun was mine, and payed in full.
However I didn't needed it anymore and was looking to sell it.
Mike didn't allow me to sell it on my own, as he wanted to sell it him self for $300 more than I payed.
He promised a full refund several time in the last year, but never did.
And stopped replying to my emails.
i didn't wanne post this on a open forum, but Mike leaves me no choice
WHAAAT ?!?!?!
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So, anybody still waiting on their airguns?
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The gun in the above picture is number 5 and said it is ready for shipment, question is why would number 5 ship before 2 or 3??? David
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And it has been painfully obvious what the forum needs to do but I have hesitated taking any actions until folks received their orders. That's why I keep asking for updates from those that placed orders and paid.
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Ho boy, what was such a cool, promising, exciting project ........has really turned out this sour ?
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This is sad news... I really like the .25 Rat Sniper Slugs and all of my dealings with Mike have been good. I've even recommended Rat Snipers to several people and I link to his site on my hog video. Hopefully some resolution will come to this one way or the other.
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The first post was Nov 3, 2014 by Mike. I made this post so that anyone who has not read this entire thread knows just how long this saga has been going on and actually longer
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Wow so sad .But working a full time job .
Plus His pellet business .
Then relying on vendors is overwhelming .
I would know I just retired from working 20+ years in the firearms industry.
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Since I'm only receiving updates from one customer, I will assume EVERYONE else has received their prepaid airguns? And if so, where are all of the write-ups showing us pictures and giving us performance figures? Or am I missing something?
Seriously....where are the updates?
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Since I'm only receiving updates from one customer, I will assume EVERYONE else has received their prepaid airguns? And if so, where are all of the write-ups showing us pictures and giving us performance figures? Or am I missing something?
Seriously....where are the updates?
It is boggling that there's no updates yet. Even new Maximus owners were posting pics and info the day they received theirs.
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True, good, bad, or indifferent, say something.
I may be wrong, but it Sounds like some companies I have worked for.
"Don't say anything and you will get paid.
You talk, no severance pay."
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Since I'm only receiving updates from one customer, I will assume EVERYONE else has received their prepaid airguns? And if so, where are all of the write-ups showing us pictures and giving us performance figures? Or am I missing something?
Seriously....where are the updates?
Probably need to just PM those customers and make a list to track their rifle status. I'd start with the beginning list of 10 and reach out to them... They'll direct you to the new owners/purchasers (for those people like me who ended up selling their spot). Fortunately, it's only a list of 10, so systematically filling out a list shouldn't be too painful.
There may be things people don't want to say in a public forum and perhaps that's why you're not seeing replies here. So PM might be your best bet on this.
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Thanks Larry, I may take that task on in my spare time. LOL
Thing is, I shouldn't have to. And if folks aren't wanting to post about this fantastic airgun, then there's a definite issue.
I may be all wrong but posting comments, photos and reviews would sure prove that as not the case at all.
Just saying....
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I agree I'd expect to have heard about them but I think
about half the people that bought them, only joined to keep track of this
thread so I'm not sure if they would actively post their thoughts or not,
and then there are a couple that sold their spots to I would guess members but?
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It is fire season - he may be out doing volunteer work to save the forests.
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Good point He did last year .
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::)
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::) ::) ::) ::)2 years 10 guns, ::) ::) ::) ::) :o David
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To be fair, it's only 9 guns that were sold, AFAIK.... Mike was going to give me one for the design (his offer), and he had a problem while making it, so that never happened.... I can't remember what number it was, 009, maybe?.... It was a dual caliber, .25 and .30, with no shroud and a satin Pepper laminate stock.... AFAIK, it still sits as a pile of parts.... Mike doesn't "owe" me anything, so I'm OK with that....
Bob
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Back in April Mike started to post updates and on May 6 he posted that the missing LDCs (last item needed) had been found and he had finally received them. He also went on to say he would be spending time in his shop building guns.
Since the May 6th post there has not been one word. Also let's not start using fire season as an excuse as early May was not fire season! Last year we all knew about the fires in the Northwest and this year as of this date there has not been a word about bad fires in his area. If he is busy fighting fires that could be said in an update but no updates have been posted going on 2 months.
My issue with this is how hard is it to post a weekly update even if it is just saying no progress this week! What does that take, a couple minutes?
IMO he should at least say guns # 1, 2 , 3 have shipped and # 4 is being worked on. These are just random #s I used as I do not have any idea what he has shipped.
Norm
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All this doesn't look very promising,
So, so far no one in posses of any guns ? .......and all gun where payed for in advance ?
A true shame if it goes all south, it was a very cool project and I would have been interested in one eventually.
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I know some were delivered.... perhaps those that received their MP's could post here?....
Bob
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I had Master Hunter #001 and there is a picture of it in post #1796 page 57.
Having taken so long I sold it before it was ever built. The picture is by the new owner Meann-Machine.
I'm actually glad I sold it as it was extremely heavy and being one of the Master Hunter Models it was supposed to be a 3 caliber gun, 22 / 25 / 30 but when being built a small problem happened. The bonding agent used to bond the carbon fiber sleeve to the barrel also glued the 30 cal barrel to the breech and it became a one caliber ( 30 cal) gun. Nothing that I would have wanted!!
I did have Mike ship it to me so I could confirm it was built and to see what it looked like. I then shipped it to the new owner and he took the picture.
about them.
Norm
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Finally Received the $1200,- refund for rifle number 4!!!
Good that I got it, but took 6 months longer than promised by Mike.
Well wen I payed for the rifle Mike told me it should take just 3 months before shipping.
2 years later still nothing, so waiting 6+ Months waiting for a refund doesn't sound so bad :o :o :o
Still didn't receive the refund for the Spare Millenium valve, steel picatinny breech and .285 TJ-barrel that I ordered from him over an year ago but that is not for this topic.
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Sorry To Hear When Things Go South .
It Even Happens In The Real World Of Manufacturing .
When You Put Your Hard Earned Money Into A Product And end up on Short END .
I Know Been Their Done That.
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I have serial no. MH0001. So far my business hasn't allowed me the opportunity of wringing her out. However, I can tell you that Mike's cost overruns are about $300 per rifle. He's working on them, I know that. It has been a frustrating process for everyone, especially Mike. When your dreams don't pan out the way you think they will & when every step takes you further away from your goal it takes a special type of person to follow through. It isn't easy, but Mike's doing it. I think you'll find the finished product worth the wait.
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I must admit with my financial situation the way it is (up one month down the next three), I must admit I am glad I did not go in to this endeavor. I feel sorry for all those suffering through this. It is not only bad for the people buying the rifles, but also bad for the person making them. Buyers lose confidence, and the seller loses respect whether deserved or not. In the end communication is the key to success, even bad news is better than no news at all when you are dealing with someone's hard earned money.
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Mike,
Any info on Millennium Pumper #3?
Carlos
Update: Thank you Mike for the email reply.
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Nothing ? :o :o :o :o
There's been basically no news for some time now, is this thing really gone south big time ?
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I for one can totally understand how easy it is for these things to go south it nearly happened at least 10 times to us at WAR. From outside services machining things wrong to waiting FOREVER for parts to come back from the anodizing etc. That's why very few company's actually make it to production. I feel for the people waiting and even more so for Mike who wanted only to make and awesome gun at a great price. These small runs of guns are expensive and to get the original price point I bet it would have taken 200 guns in one run to cut costs to acceptable costs. JMHO
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Yea, it cost $100 per item to make 10 of them.
Or $10 per item to make 100 of them.
Either way, the production cost is the same.
A lot of people don't understand that Tooling up is the expensive part.
You machine a 1 off unique part because it's fun and you want to see if it can be done, and then people see it and want them.
Then you HAVE to make them for customers, and it's no longer fun. It's work.
And that is a four letter word..
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All absolutely good points and appreciated. The thing that garners or destroys support in a case like this is communication. The customer service aspect of it. If someone continues to communicate and keep me informed of issues, they will still have my support. Go silent, say you are going to give weekly updates and don't and you lose all credibility and support. It simply amazes me how little effort it REALLY takes to gain respect and support. But how some can't or want take those necessary steps.
This gate is about to be closed. The posts will still be available but this has drug out way too long with no response or promised updates.
We have given many more chances than should have been allowed.
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I Worked for a gun mfg for 20 + years . Just retired .
It would take months if not years to get a working protype to work.
It's the part of R&D NO ONE Takes into consideration .
When they take on a project of a one of a kind .
If you are depending on other people to complete their end part.
Sometimes the have problems of their own end.
Hope this helps .MIKE
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This saddens me, because I built the original prototype, and gave Mike permission to take the gun to production with my blessings, and asked for nothing in return.... It ended up, it appears, on the dust heap of good ideas gone bad.... and worse than that, apparently leaving some people out of pocket as well.... :'(
Bob
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sorry to hear bad news. pre pay can be risky for sure. regards
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All absolutely good points and appreciated. The thing that garners or destroys support in a case like this is communication. The customer service aspect of it. If someone continues to communicate and keep me informed of issues, they will still have my support. Go silent, say you are going to give weekly updates and don't and you lose all credibility and support. It simply amazes me how little effort it REALLY takes to gain respect and support. But how some can't or want take those necessary steps.
This gate is about to be closed. The posts will still be available but this has drug out way too long with no response or promised updates.
We have given many more chances than should have been allowed.
Good point Dez and I hope future builders will read this and understand that communication even if bad news is a whole lot better than none! I cant see in my own eyes how this gun if built in small batches in the USA could cost less than $1600-1800 each min. That is the fundamental that was lost in the process, what are build costs and profits? And for new companys who think they can do it cheap I believe they will be shocked in the end and leave customers very unhappy, JMHO Travis W
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Yes Tavis you are correct. I will add when a project like the MP is capitalized slowly over months it make is that much harder to be profitable. The time-value of money is often overlooked; delays are death.
Tom
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This saddens me, because I built the original prototype, and gave Mike permission to take the gun to production with my blessings, and asked for nothing in return.... It ended up, it appears, on the dust heap of good ideas gone bad.... and worse than that, apparently leaving some people out of pocket as well.... :'(
Bob
This absolutely does not reflect poorly on you, Bob. It's a great design, and you deserve commendation for designing it, as well as sharing the design with the forum and its members.
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All absolutely good points and appreciated. The thing that garners or destroys support in a case like this is communication. The customer service aspect of it. If someone continues to communicate and keep me informed of issues, they will still have my support. Go silent, say you are going to give weekly updates and don't and you lose all credibility and support. It simply amazes me how little effort it REALLY takes to gain respect and support. But how some can't or want take those necessary steps.
This gate is about to be closed. The posts will still be available but this has drug out way too long with no response or promised updates.
We have given many more chances than should have been allowed.
Good point Dez and I hope future builders will read this and understand that communication even if bad news is a whole lot better than none! I cant see in my own eyes how this gun if built in small batches in the USA could cost less than $1600-1800 each min. That is the fundamental that was lost in the process, what are build costs and profits? And for new companys who think they can do it cheap I believe they will be shocked in the end and leave customers very unhappy, JMHO Travis W
I must agree.
Also this project seems to have suffered from reinventing the wheel. Instead of using factory stocks, uppers, barrels, or any of that stuff everything was custom. Good, fast, cheap, pick two.
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is there any hope of resurrecting this project
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I'M not going to be put through this again!!!! I'm sure many members feel the same way too.
Now, if someone else with a well established business reputation decides to pick up the design and go with it, maybe.
Let's remember history and not repeat mistakes. That's all I'll say on the subject...for now.
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I'M not going to be put through this again!!!! I'm sure many members feel the same way too.
Now, if someone else with a well established business reputation decides to pick up the design and go with it, maybe.
Let's remember history and not repeat mistakes. That's all I'll say on the subject...for now.
Amen !
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These would be great guns if a high quality established business and being a machinist with the correct equipment stepped in. Not having to outsource all the work could / would solve al the issues of the 1st attempt. JMO
Norm
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No news from owners?
Mike's last visit was June 20th six weeks after his last communication.
Anyone?
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I've been hoping at least someone that bought one would chime in.
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I've already shared what I can about mine (006). For some reason I wasn't getting the updates from the forum and didn't know that there was a lot of discussion since I chimed in last.
I'm still waiting on my .22 barrel or a refund from Mike. I've emailed him many times about it.
I almost never shoot mine because it's not very accurate. I've only tried two types of JSB's and two other .25 pellets in it. My condor gets shot most of the time. I'm still hoping that I can figure out a way to make it more accurate.
Mine had a lot of problems when I got it but I think I've gotten most of them worked out with the exception of accuracy.
Feel free to ask any questions you want. I may not answer right away because I'm camping for the next couple of days and have three jobs.
Matt
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I've already shared what I can about mine (006). For some reason I wasn't getting the updates from the forum and didn't know that there was a lot of discussion since I chimed in last.
I'm still waiting on my .22 barrel or a refund from Mike. I've emailed him many times about it.
I almost never shoot mine because it's not very accurate. I've only tried two types of JSB's and two other .25 pellets in it. My condor gets shot most of the time. I'm still hoping that I can figure out a way to make it more accurate.
Mine had a lot of problems when I got it but I think I've gotten most of them worked out with the exception of accuracy.
Feel free to ask any questions you want. I may not answer right away because I'm camping for the next couple of days and have three jobs.
Matt
Wow, after all this and the gun is not accurate? Sorry to hear that, I hope you can get it worked out. They sure look nice - what kind of accuracy are you getting? Have you cleaned the barrel to make sure it is not as simple as that?
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I've already shared what I can about mine (006). For some reason I wasn't getting the updates from the forum and didn't know that there was a lot of discussion since I chimed in last.
I'm still waiting on my .22 barrel or a refund from Mike. I've emailed him many times about it.
I almost never shoot mine because it's not very accurate. I've only tried two types of JSB's and two other .25 pellets in it. My condor gets shot most of the time. I'm still hoping that I can figure out a way to make it more accurate.
Mine had a lot of problems when I got it but I think I've gotten most of them worked out with the exception of accuracy.
Feel free to ask any questions you want. I may not answer right away because I'm camping for the next couple of days and have three jobs.
Matt
Hi
How are you?
Sorry to hear your having accuracy issues.
Any idea how fast your right rifle is shooting?
Hope you can get the issues resolved
Dave
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Yep - cleaned the barrel but I doubt it would hurt to try it again.
I shot a few stings over the chrony . . .@ 2000 psi and the RVA all the way in I got: 900, 885, 862,823,763
After playing with it for a few minutes still at @ 2000 psi with the RVA 3 turns out I got : 845, 856, 848, 832 and the last at 791 with 1050 PSI.
My gauge was off a bit so it appeared to be more than 2000 psi but it wasn't.
I was trying to get five solid shots. Looks like that is not going to happen but it does get four good shots. Keep in mind that mine has the 25 inch barrel.
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What kind of accuracy are you getting with the 4 good shots?
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I just got back from my trip. My best scope is on my condor right now. Sometime this week I'll change out scopes and get you some numbers. The best I remember it was shooting about 1 -1 1/2 groups at 50 yards. Enough for hunting small game but not where I want to see it.
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maybe the few other people who have one are too embarrassed to talk about it
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maybe the few other people who have one are too embarrassed to talk about it
You might be onto something there
Reminds me of Filarms 'owners' mmmmmmmm
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I wanted to buy one when they became available, I thought the concept was great.
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I wanted to buy one when they became available, I thought the concept was great.
Dude, shut-up! What won't you buy? Geez, darn Gnitch! :o ;D :P ::)
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As much as I hate to say it, I think the admins should lock and kill this thread.
The gun is a great idea, but unfortunately, through a series of unknown events, at this time, its history.
And any further discussion, is not going to get any better.
I think it's a dead horse.
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I think Ian is right
Enough is enough and there is nothing to gain from keeping it going.
This thing is history and unfortunately I was part of it!
Time for it to go BYE BYE!
Norm
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Ditto on the Lockdown
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agreed X10 !