Millennium Pumper Production - *The Beginning* - And The Lousy End

[dyotat100]

Everything is bashing to you.

I'm just stating the facts and I guess that's bashing to you.

You should have produced a working gun first instead of talking so much about it.

Wondering if Cedric will ever see those slugs you were so anxious to get to him 8+ months ago.

[EMrider]

That group is at least quarter size and I guarantee it was the best one out of all the groups.

dyotat100, you make a valid observation.
The group in the image might be approaching a quarter (.955-in.) vs a nickel (.835-in.)
However, I was referring to Mike's quote - not the photo.

In a hunting situation ... the difference between a nickel and a quarter in accuracy at 50-yds
I don't think would make any difference at all in the field - at least from my shooting/hunting experience.

What is apparent ... more trial shooting and tweaking are needed - this takes time.
Any person familiar with product design/engineering, testing/development  and production would anticipate as such
and appreciate as much during final product development .
I have a background in Engineering, Manufacturing and Machining - I'm not surprised.

Mike needs more time to dial-in the Millenium Pumper ... some patience would be in-order.

I understand things take time. Usually when someone sells a gun there is a working gun that all of the "figuring" out is done.

Instead guns have been paid for and things are still being worked out. I know I wouldn't be happy if I paid for one and things were still trying to be figured out. These guns were suppose to be done a while ago.

I think the biggest issue is going to be with POI when pumping the gun. I have a Sheridan with steroid kit and I hold the barrel at the sight to pump it.

In my opinion, you have a narrow view of how product development works and are being a twit because this particular airgun is not following your script.

Those who have expressed an interest and/or ordered a gun have all the facts in hand that you do.  If that is adequate for them, great.  If it isn't for you, no problem. 

The amount of information and disclosure being provided, for better or worse, is very extensive. No need for you to be everyone's nanny about it.

R

[dyotat100]

Yeah its usually developed before it's paid for and there is a working gun.

I build guns and know all about it. I take money when they are done.

I don't see FX talking money on a gun and then start building it. Then once build have to work out why it's not shooting good enough.

[Rocker1]

Thats enough gentlemen.      David   

[Sfttailrdr46]

dyotat100 you are treading on very thin ice please keep you comments less provocative your mailbox is full and this message would have been a PM otherwise

[aom22]

Usually when someone sells a gun there is a working gun that all of the "figuring" out is done.

dyotat100, the Millennium Pumper design was initially the work of rsterne.
When Mike stepped-in ... it wasn't from ground-zero.

Please take the time the read the following thread - including the link(s).
This will help you up-to-speed on the background of the Millennium Pumper.

Bobs Millennium Pumper is being produced! View Thread on Oct 16, 2014 6:15 PM

Moreover, I ... for one ... knew Mike's endeavor to bring to market a finished adult-quality Pumper would not be a simple one.
There is no other custom-made or factory-production pumper being manufactured by any company or person that approaches
all of the included features of the Millennium Pumper ... other than what Mike is doing.
As such, kudos go to him for taking-on the challenge.

[dyotat100]

I'm done. I can't comment anymore

[CarsonRatSniper]

I appreciate the patience of the first 10 buyers - believe me *I* want to ship these out!
I bought one too...just because you're the one making them doesn't mean they're any less expensive.

The powerplant was easy as Bob did all of the R&D on that portion.

I blended both of his prototypes into this rifle.

Our top end is what is setting this rifle apart from anything else available...I could've slapped a factory breech on it and called it a day but I want this rifle to be something special that can be handed down for generations.

There's been extensive R&D and prototyping going into the top end and I assure you the rifles will be perfect when they ship out.

Without the first 10 buyers this project wouldn't have happened.
On top of having one of the first 10 ever produced they will also know that they were a part of something special and meaningful to the airgun community that wouldn't have happened without their support and patience.

I assure all of my buyers you will *not* be disappointed when you take yours out of the box and shoot it!

All of the parts are done except anodizing...we're waiting on our media tumblers to be delivered to tumble the aluminum parts before bead blasting and sending them out. They've been on backorder for 3 weeks and are expected to ship April 10.

We also bought a honing machine for the pressure tubes...just another step we didn't need to do but we are doing it...that was an expensive piece of equipment.

Jim & myself have an insane amount of time and money into this project and probably won't make a single penny for the first 50+ rifles...but we're starting a joint gun manufacturing company and the Millennium is just the beginning of some crazy things we will be offering to airgunners.
More to come on that when it's time...

I'm on vacation the week of April 12 and I will be in the machine shop full time...I will be posting pics and updates just as I have been since this started.

Thanks everybody!

Mike

[rsterne]

In hindsight, to both make a quick buck and quell his critics, Mike could have simply produced the second version of my Millennium Pumper.... it was already a sorted, working rifle, with three shots at 40 FPE in .25 cal.... Instead of taking the easy way out, and with my encouragement, Mike blended the final version of the Carbine with it (to increase air capacity), and came up with an original repeater breech design.... He asked me about additional calibers, and after giving that some thought, instead of using the valve I had at that time, I suggested that he upgrade to what I have done since, with bigger ports, and at the last minute he then incorporated the MRod poppet, which I had thought about but never used.... The result is what he called the "Millennium" valve, and he has already delivered the first 20, in addition to those made for the Pumpers....

All of these things take time, and money.... Frankly, I was surprised (and delighted) when 10 guys stepped up to the plate, money in hand, knowing what they were getting into.... but probably not expecting it to take as long as it has.... I have offered Mike as much free advice and encouragement as I can along the way, and have watched the project grow from a simple copy of my prototype to something much more capable.... I for one, wish Mike and Jim all possible success in this, and any future endeavours.... I truly feel that those guys who have put their money where their mouth is, will not be disappointed....Being a critic when you don't have any skin in the game, has no point....

Bob

[aom22]

Being a critic when you don't have any skin in the game, has no point....

Excellent point rsterne ... well said.

Where have I heard?  "Quality takes time, Excellence takes a little longer"

Mike, thanks for keeping us posted - it is much appreciated.
And, thanks to dyotat100  for ... albeit unwittingly ... being particularly responsible for precipitating a timely update.

[c670809]

I will say as someone who has put up money for this gun that I'm full of lots of emotions. I'm excited, frustrated, and everything in between.

The gun seems like it it will be the gun I've always wished someone would make so I was willing to take a risk. Bob did a great job with the prototype and this has potential to be even better.

To me, the most disappointing has been the lack of clear communication. I check this post everyday. There are lots of times when Mike says that he will update with more information and then nothing happens.  I know life gets in the way but for me all I need is a short update. I would rather know that nothing has been done in the last week because of work or whatever rather than silence. On 11/18/2014 I was told delivery time should be 3-4 weeks. I've not complained but it's bothered me that there has been no real communication. That time rolled by and then it was going to be the end of February. We've gone through that and now? \

Don't get me wrong, I would rather have it done right than on-time. However, I would just like more updates to see that things are moving forward.

Combine that with the fact that the first performance numbers don't match the prototype and I was a little frustrated and disappointed. In the end I have no doubt that it will all work out and I'll be happy.

I see both sides of this argument and I'm not sure there is a correct one. I think it all boils down to perspective.

[Hanabata808]

I knew when I put my money in (yay #3 -- almost had #2 which I hoped for), that it'd probably be a long wait. I'm more than ok with that since talking with Mike on the phone, I want a product that I'll be proud to own and show off.
And if it's helping the airgun community to bring something like this to the market... all the better. Makes it feel like a kickstarter. 
 
I do understand where dyotat100 is coming from, but speaking for myself as one of the 10 people who put their money down, I actually appreciate that Mike is taking the additional time to make this rifle something special. Development may be going into overtime, but I was expecting that.

So Mike... just keep posting pics and keep us in the loop how things progress.    I'm always eager to see this thread updated with new info.  I'm hoping you can get the rifle dialed in for both the .25 JSB heavies and your Wicked Monster Hollowpoints.  Shooting 1" spinners at 100 yards is what I plan on doing with the rifle. 

[Frank_Zuccarini]

I do not know dyotat100, or what his past contributions to the community may have been.  But it is clear to me that his recent comments in this thread are designed to disparage CarsonRatSniper.

There may be a personal animosity here, or simply professional jealousy.  I do not know.  But his comments seem to be deliberately designed to create dissension among an otherwise friendly, committed and genuine group of dedicated airgunners.

I am happy to see the less vocal majority continue to support CarsonRatSniper and his efforts to further the idea of what a pump-up pneumatic can be.  His resources do not match those of Crosman or FX, and without the trust and support of the initial (10) investors, this remarkable endeavour would not be happening.  I am proud to be a small part of this effort.

Respectfully...................... Frank Zuccarini

[CarsonRatSniper]

Thanks guys...again, I apologize for the delays - I will post updates at least weekly regardless of what they are.
I will have daily progress reports the week of April 12 with update photos each day of where we're at.

Another change we made to the barrel system is incorporating Bobs Belleville muzzle system - that along with our viscous dampening vs permanently bonding the sleeve to the barrel will make the upper a truly unique system of removing harmonic vibration.

All Teflon transfer ports will be made at .219" to match the valve exhaust port.

.22 caliber will get a 9/64" barrel port, .25 caliber will get a .219" oval port like I did on my Challenger and .30 caliber will get a .219" port as well.
I still need to test with the new tapered valve spring - the Mrod poppet with the factory valve spring made quite a difference in performance vs the Disco poppet and factory valve spring.

I will also make a carbide spring guide jnsert to add weight to the hammer assembly if its just too light to hit the numbers I am looking for (which is 65+ ft lbs).
The reason for not just using a heavy hammer is for the ability to detune the gun further back than just backing off the preload on the RVA...if you remove the carbide spring guide from the assembly it will make it easy to tune it down to 30 ft lbs if you just want to plink with pellets.

More to come shortly...

Mike

[YEMX]

I do not know dyotat100, or what his past contributions to the community may have been.  But it is clear to me that his recent comments in this thread are designed to disparage CarsonRatSniper.

There may be a personal animosity here, or simply professional jealousy.  I do not know.  But his comments seem to be deliberately designed to create dissension among an otherwise friendly, committed and genuine group of dedicated airgunners.

I am happy to see the less vocal majority continue to support CarsonRatSniper and his efforts to further the idea of what a pump-up pneumatic can be.  His resources do not match those of Crosman or FX, and without the trust and support of the initial (10) investors, this remarkable endeavour would not be happening.  I am proud to be a small part of this effort.

Respectfully...................... Frank Zuccarini

He's a great machinist, and builds rifles that accurately and quietly shoot out to 300 yards.  He pushes the envelope of AF rifles, and in general a pretty good guy.  If anyone is going to get a new RL airforce valve, Dyotat designed it.  Anyone enjoy a .257 condor?  Dyotat was the first to build a really high power one...  I don't see what everyone is getting upset about.  He's just bringing up valid points- if we can't take constructive criticism to improve ourselves, what kind of adults are we?!

[jvanschoonhoven]

I think the important thing to remember is that this is a ground up project and its not like a company with thousands and thousands of dollars just making a new model.

Without our support as the first 10 buyers this would  not have  happened. Yes I am bummed we dont have rifles yet but I am happy to wait for perfection and i know that's what I will get.
I have worked machining gun parts for years and making this gun work takes time  sometimes more time then we think it will. That's life.

[bnowlin]

And don't forget, he makes some pretty dang good pellets on the side.
ob

[CarsonRatSniper]

Our tumblers were delivered this morning so all of the aluminum parts can be prepped for anodizing - they should go out mid week and I was told it would be a one week turnaround.

Next week I'm finishing the rest of the stocks...here's how the first ones turned out



Now that we welded up a stock rack I can work on 12 stocks at a time instead of 3.

We're getting closer!

Mike

[UCChris]

Woah. That blue stock is gorgeous Mike!

[CarsonRatSniper]

Thanks!

They're all getting 5 coats of poly. After we build a spray booth and buy a spray gun we will move to an industrial stock finishing process...they're being hand finished for now.

Mike