The .177 for hunting ?

[bubba zanetti]

All right ... Who plugged this puppy back in?  Didn't someone read it's last rights??

CW

ZOMBIE THREAD!!!

Quick! Put one in its head and be done!

...wait...what is that noise?...gracious! It is another ".177 for hunting?, .177 vs .22, .177 is too small how the Europeans do it?" thread crashing through my computer screen to devour me! AHHHHHHHH!

They are coming to get you Barbara. Look! there is a .177 now coming to get you!

BZ

[Sandspike]

Just a little fun with ChairgunPro.
Three pellets all at 900 fps.
                          Energy foot lbs.
Pellet.      Cal.    Muzzle/50yrd/70yrd
CP          .177      15/  9/  7
CP           .22     27/15/11
JSB King.  .25    48/37/28
So there is the story. The 22 has as much knock out power at 50 yards as a .177 has point blank.
And a .25 has as much at 70 yards as a .22 point blank. That's why savvy hunters are buying .25 cal. Guns.

[limbshaker]

The squirrels and birds around my neck of the woods don't use Chairgun...

Neither do I, but we both know how well my 11fpe HW50S and 13fpe TX200HC work for hunting. All in the lowly .177 caliber. The squirrels aren't around anymore to talk about it, since they are chilling in my freezer, so I guess you'll have to take my word on it. 

FYI, I shot a big fox squirrel at 35 yards the other day with the 13fpe TX200, and it was a complete pass through heart/lung shot. He fell dead from the tree two seconds after he was hit and never twitched. I also killed a grey squirrel last weekend with the 11fpe HW50S, and after breaking one shoulder and punching through the other, the pellet was lodged under the skin on the other side. This one was at 30 yards.. 

Now somebody quick, punch it in Chairgun and tell me it won't work before I do it again.

I'm sure a .25 cal pushing 45fpe would have killed either just as quick, but not if you hit him in the leg or hindquarters......or you shot a foot low because you didn't figure in the trajectory for the wad of lead you were lobbing.

Use what you like, obviously all the calibers work well if you hit what you're aiming at. 

[gandalfretlaw]

Well yes that is true if you can achieve 900fps in each caliber with the same rifle which is not true. What it does mean is that a 22cal can accept a lot more power than a 177 can. I feel that a robust speed (around 900) is desirable for hunting regardless of the caliber and I'd rather have a 900fps 177 than a 750fps 22. However I would prefer a 900fps 22 to a 900fps 177 and the same with a 25.

If you have excessive speed/power in a lower caliber you can always increase wight to take advantage of it. So with a 1400fps alloy 177 rifle you could shoot heavy ten grain or more pellets giving you power retention like the 22 but with a flat shooting trajectory. This also gives you maximum range.

It's a little like fish in a pond. I'd rather be the big fish in the small pond than just an average fish in a larger pond.

[SpringerMan]

Just a little fun with ChairgunPro.
Three pellets all at 900 fps.
                          Energy foot lbs.
Pellet.      Cal.    Muzzle/50yrd/70yrd
CP          .177      15/  9/  7
CP           .22     27/15/11
JSB King.  .25    48/37/28
So there is the story. The 22 has as much knock out power at 50 yards as a .177 has point blank.
And a .25 has as much at 70 yards as a .22 point blank. That's why savvy hunters are buying .25 cal. Guns.

What pellet weights were you using for the comparison ?

It requires a PCP to get 900 fps in .25 caliber . . .

A HATSAN 125 springer will deliver that in .22 caliber

[Sandspike]

The standard pellet weight for each specified pellet.

[Bryan Heimann]

Just a little fun with ChairgunPro.
Three pellets all at 900 fps.
                          Energy foot lbs.
Pellet.      Cal.    Muzzle/50yrd/70yrd
CP          .177      15/  9/  7
CP           .22     27/15/11
JSB King.  .25    48/37/28
So there is the story. The 22 has as much knock out power at 50 yards as a .177 has point blank.
And a .25 has as much at 70 yards as a .22 point blank. That's why savvy hunters are buying .25 cal. Guns.

What pellet weights were you using for the comparison ?

It requires a PCP to get 900 fps in .25 caliber . . .

A HATSAN 125 springer will deliver that in .22 caliber

That's why most agree that .22 is optimum for magnum springers and .25 is pushing it a little too far.  My personal preference is still .25 though.  Realistically, with my "field marksmanship" and a magnum springer, 40-50 yards is about the very farthest I'll shoot at game unless I am set up in a nice hide, so I can shoot sitting  supported and that's not how I like to hunt.  A 24 fpe springer can keep a. 20 grain ftt within a half inch of aimpoint out to 40 yards and punch a big enough hole that I ought to be good out to 50 even if I fudge the holdover a little bit.  But really a magnum's range would be optimized in .22 although not necessarily it's power in the case of some of the Hatsans.  I really do think .177 is great but obviousely limited by the power level it can maintain accuracy- which is plenty to hunt.  That's why I believe it is more about preference.  I prefer big pellets that punch big holes as long as they are accurate.  But the disclaimer- I'd rather have an accurate 10 fpe gun in .177 than a 30 fpe .25 cannon that I can't hit anything with.

[nced]

I am having a debate with my friend that goes hunting with me about the .177 for hunting. He says its better because it has a flatter trajectory and they are more available and that the pellets are more common. But the .177 can't retain energy well, and most of its pellets are not even for hunting. Now, we are comparing it to a .22 since I use the .22 and he uses a .177. I said that the .22 almost always has a tiny bit of more ME than the same gun in .177 and that the pellets are heavier and they make a larger wound channel and they retain energy more than the .177 and most of it's pellets are for hunting. But he says that it does not have a good trajectory vs the .177 and that it goes slower than the .177 and the pellets are not as common as the .177 is. What do you think ? .177 or .22 ?

There are theories and folks trying to explain airgun ballistics by applying powder burner jargon to NORMAL airgun power levels, but I really don't think there is much in common. Years ago I tried a .20 and .22 barrel on my R9 and then sold the .20/.22 barrels reverting back to .177 never to look back. I learned that an off the mark .22 cal hit with my R9 powered springer wasn't as good as an on the mark hit with a .177. Since the .20/.22 pellet had a loopier trajectory than my .177 I found that the range estimation accuracy needed past my zero distance was above my "guestimation" ability!

IHMO, the issue is the SHOOTER knowing HIS limitations as well as the limitations of his equipment and staying inside those boundaries. Here are a couple pics of critters all taken with a single dome pellet at ranges out to 30 yards. LOL.....with my R9 I really didn't there there was a nickels difference between the .177,.20, or 22, pellet for squirrels out to 30 yards as long as the pellet was accurate.

[nced]

All right ... Who plugged this puppy back in?  Didn't someone read it's last rights??

CW

ZOMBIE THREAD!!!

Quick! Put one in its head and be done!

...wait...what is that noise?...gracious! It is another ".177 for hunting?, .177 vs .22, .177 is too small how the Europeans do it?" thread crashing through my computer screen to devour me! AHHHHHHHH!

They are coming to get you Barbara. Look! there is a .177 now coming to get you!

BZ

LOL........I agree completely, but it DOES give me ANOTHER chance to spout my personal opinions! 

[Bryan Heimann]

All right ... Who plugged this puppy back in?  Didn't someone read it's last rights??

CW

ZOMBIE THREAD!!!

Quick! Put one in its head and be done!

...wait...what is that noise?...gracious! It is another ".177 for hunting?, .177 vs .22, .177 is too small how the Europeans do it?" thread crashing through my computer screen to devour me! AHHHHHHHH!

They are coming to get you Barbara. Look! there is a .177 now coming to get you!

BZ

LOL........I agree completely, but it DOES give me ANOTHER chance to spout my personal opinions! 

^this

[Sandspike]

U know U love it.

THE END

[PaulFWI]

Does .177 or .22 do better for killing old threads?

Some of these threads are extremely tenacious - like a 4 lb Fox squirrel doing meth.

And they move fast, too, so a flat-shooting round is important.

[K.O.]

If ya only hunt in perfect conditions a wrist rocket and a .177 is fine...

But on a windy/wintery day the heavier  hunk of lead traveling at the same fps is what I want...  I can tune down a .25 for smaller prey...

But then  have used .22 powder for squirrel and dove etc.

 - It is sort of hard to get 50-100 fpe from a .177...

So yep I would use a .177 at times (can hit a Hosp in the head at 25 yards on a still day with my Daisy 953) but The .25 and .22 at the same speed have  my vote...

I have not got a zombie thread yet... but did Nail a zombie watermelon between the eyes at 30 yards...

[PaulFWI]

It seems to me it's a myth that .177 is deflected more by wind.  Ballistics run here

http://www.airguns.net/trajectory.php

don't show that.

Wind resistance is a matter of starting velocity, BC (because of its affect on flight time), and profile area... right?

(I have .22 & .25 cal PCP rifles and intend to buy a springer or two soon (R9, Air Arms TX200), and will probably do .177.  That said, I do like the way a JSB from a 30 FPE .22 air rifle physically flip a cottontail over at 50 yards with a chest shot, and it doesn't even so much as twitch one time..)

[K.O.]

It seems to me it's a myth that .177 is deflected more by wind.  Ballistics run here

http://www.airguns.net/trajectory.php

don't show that.

Wind resistance is a matter of starting velocity, BC (because of its affect on flight time), and profile area... right?

(I have .22 & .25 cal PCP rifles and intend to buy a springer or two soon (R9, Air Arms TX200), and will probably do .177.  That said, I do like the way a JSB from a 30 FPE .22 air rifle physically flip a cottontail over at 50 yards with a chest shot, and it doesn't even so much as twitch one time..)

For the same form the heavier the better the B.C./SD

[PaulFWI]

It seems to me it's a myth that .177 is deflected more by wind.  Ballistics run here

http://www.airguns.net/trajectory.php

don't show that.

Wind resistance is a matter of starting velocity, BC (because of its affect on flight time), and profile area... right?

(I have .22 & .25 cal PCP rifles and intend to buy a springer or two soon (R9, Air Arms TX200), and will probably do .177.  That said, I do like the way a JSB from a 30 FPE .22 air rifle physically flip a cottontail over at 50 yards with a chest shot, and it doesn't even so much as twitch one time..)

For the same form the heavier the better the B.C./SD

Right.  And for some heavier .177 pellets, such as the 10.3gr JSB, the BC is as good as almost any .22, and the wind resistance is *quite a bit better*.  I'm talking about actual ballistics.  This due, of course, to the faster flight time, and I think the slimmer profile.

Note that if/when I recommend .177 I'm talking about mid-power springers.  My view after doing a lot of shooting is that you want at least 800 FPS to get trajectory flat enough.  I'd never buy a PCP in .177 but for a carryable springer, yeah, I think it'll be .177.

(Type of critter is also a factor.  Squirrels do not drop from .177 chest shots fast/reliably enough - that I know.  Everything else under 4 lb DOES.  I have no qualms shooting rabbits or certainly sparrows/starlings H&L with a 15-17 FPE .177 gun out to 50 yards.  Squirrels, head only.

25 years ago I prowled the squirrel woods with a .20 R1 and chest shots from that did do the job - barely.  As in usually they hang on the branch a few seconds and then drop.)

But I don't really want to debate it.   And yes I did read this entire thread.

(The guy who said he does head shots on birds with his 4 FPE air rifle at 55 yards was a real riot.)

[K.O.]

what you are talking about is a springer/NP problem not a external ballistics fact...

I do not shoot springers I have always been a pumper guy...

I do think that .177 might have a small advantage in field target for the smaller openings...

I did buy a modern Daisy 953 barrel to see how it does with the longer heavy 15+ grain .177 in a 20-25 fpe (in .22) pumper...

it is eaier to get a 16g .22 to 800 fps than it is a 16g .177...

The limit is the gun not the ammo...  the .22 keeps its velocity better than the .177 if both are going 800fps the .22 is better...

[K.O.]

50 yard shots with either of my 953's , they drop like a stone after 25 yards... on a good day I can do .5 inch groups at 30 yards both with the 1:15 twist barrel on the 2004 and the 1:17.7 twist of the L.W. of the 1985 953...

I will have to go back and read the whole thread...

I do not hunt currently but have with Benji pumpers since about 1969...

In the 1980s I used a modded Benji and Crossman .22 both about 17 fpe...

[K.O.]

Speaking of 4 fpe and 50 yards well this just showed up... dang good shootin

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=93523.new#new

[DWSmith]

this appears to have turned into a .177 vs .22 when there's really not one is better than the other, each are good within their limitations
for me it comes down to the correct tool for the task at hand. to say .177 is not a good hunting gun is not correct, there are too many videos on youtube with sub 12ft.lb AG's effectively killing prey fast and humanely.
.22 has it's advantages, .177 has it's advantages. the key factor is the shooter. if you can effectively kill with a .177 at long range and are not exceeding the guns or your limit them I see nothing wrong. I've removed various pest at various ranges effectively.
I have a .22 and had the mrod.25 and they were equally effective, but I prefer .177 because it means I can't be lazy and take a close or risky shot.
and because not every kill doesn't drop dead on the spot doesn't mean the gun or shooter isn't effective.
if I know my ag will deliver 5ft.lbs at 85 yards, and I want squirrel, I will have squirrel.*LOL*

Thank you Grady!  Sums up what is important.

I like what you posted because .177 vs .22 is sort of a moot point.  Either one will kill rabbits and squirrels.  Each has its advantages and limitations.

I remember reading that shooting a squirrel with a .22 lr bullet is like shooting a deer with a cannon.

Just look at what the folks across the pond do with 12 fpe or less and accurate shot placement.

If you have adequate fpe and accurate shot placement then you're fine with either caliber.  Know your equipment and know your abilities and go hunt!