The .177 for hunting ?

[gandalfretlaw]

From a little testing with clay, I'm in favor of flat head match pellets in small game. Especially if you have 800fps to play with. It can act like a super hollow point that dumps all it's power in a few inches and expands causing gaping wounds. I should probably test this on some gelatin, but I was really impressed with what happened in clay.

[Mod90]

Wadcutters do cut an impressive swath.The faster you drive them the more impressive the results. However the faster the're driven, the worse their accuracy becomes at further ranges. Ideally WC's are best shot between 475 & 600 fps for optimal accuracy past 20 yards. And generally speaking, their weight & shape doesn't allow them to generate or retain lots of energy by the time they reach their target, & that flat surface doesn't lend itself too well to acheiving a lot of penertation to reach vital organs either. If shooting critters with WC pellets, make certain they are accurate at the ranges intended for use & the quarry is small enough that the little energy left will do the job effectively at the point of impact.


That being said, ime the .177 is a fine tool for hunting, as long as you know your gun, know your game, & know your limits. I've taken a lot of game animals with my .177 guns, some that people would not believe was ever possible. Both small & not so small animals, both tough & o-so-feeble critters. And I attribute all those kills to those 3 tenets I just listed.

[cankiller]

Back when I was growing up in the days of the Daisy 880 and the 12 dollar scope.....I took more squirrels, rabbit, grouse, ground squirrels, you name it, that I could count.

My Daisy 880 with the 12 dollar scope was PINPOINT accurate to as far as I could possibly see.  Yes, this was in .177 of course. 

I used to have the kind of game I would play.  I would observe the squirrel and choose where I would shoot to kill it.  I was always a one shot, one kill kind of kid.  I never, ever failed to drop a squirrel with more than a single shot from a .177 Daisy 880.  Now remember, these guns were shooting pellets in the 550-600 fps range I believe.  I always used the "copperhead" ammo that you bought from Walmart, Kmart, Service Merchandise, etc. 

I will never forget the look of utter shock on my friends face one day when I stopped and looked through my scope in the middle of a field one day.  I was looking into the woods and we were a good 100 yards away.  He said "what are you doing?"  About that time, I shot and he heard the thump.  He ran over with me and there laid a nice sized gray squirrel.  I hit him right in the chest and dropped him. 

A .177 has a fantastic trajectory and if you are a very good shot, you can kill almost anything with it.  Now I say anything within reason.  Small game as in the above.  For squirrel hunting, I would hunt with .22, .25 and .177, but I wouldn't hesitate to use a pump .177 again in a heartbeat.  I must have took 200 squirrels with that gun, no exaggeration.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                   I thought Elmer Keith died like 45 yrs ago

[PaulFWI]

Back when I was growing up in the days of the Daisy 880 and the 12 dollar scope.....I took more squirrels, rabbit, grouse, ground squirrels, you name it, that I could count.

My Daisy 880 with the 12 dollar scope was PINPOINT accurate to as far as I could possibly see.  Yes, this was in .177 of course. 

I used to have the kind of game I would play.  I would observe the squirrel and choose where I would shoot to kill it.  I was always a one shot, one kill kind of kid.  I never, ever failed to drop a squirrel with more than a single shot from a .177 Daisy 880.  Now remember, these guns were shooting pellets in the 550-600 fps range I believe.  I always used the "copperhead" ammo that you bought from Walmart, Kmart, Service Merchandise, etc. 

I will never forget the look of utter shock on my friends face one day when I stopped and looked through my scope in the middle of a field one day.  I was looking into the woods and we were a good 100 yards away.  He said "what are you doing?"  About that time, I shot and he heard the thump.  He ran over with me and there laid a nice sized gray squirrel.  I hit him right in the chest and dropped him. 

A .177 has a fantastic trajectory and if you are a very good shot, you can kill almost anything with it.  Now I say anything within reason.  Small game as in the above.  For squirrel hunting, I would hunt with .22, .25 and .177, but I wouldn't hesitate to use a pump .177 again in a heartbeat.  I must have took 200 squirrels with that gun, no exaggeration.

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous.

A .177 at 600 FPS does not have sufficient energy to kill squirrels with chest shots at 20 yards much less 100.  They will run.  At 100Y?  If you'd get incredibly lucky to score a hit at that range, energy is miniscule.

And to call such a rifle flat shooting out to 100 yards is crazy.  Plot the trajectory. 

A gun like that is a 30-40Y squirrel gun with *head shots*, best-case.  I had a good spring-piston in that power range in .177 and hunted with it too.

Maybe you got extremely lucky with a single shot, but it would be highly irresponsible to hunt in such a manner intentionally.

[Luis Leon]

Back when I was growing up in the days of the Daisy 880 and the 12 dollar scope.....I took more squirrels, rabbit, grouse, ground squirrels, you name it, that I could count.

My Daisy 880 with the 12 dollar scope was PINPOINT accurate to as far as I could possibly see.  Yes, this was in .177 of course. 

I used to have the kind of game I would play.  I would observe the squirrel and choose where I would shoot to kill it.  I was always a one shot, one kill kind of kid.  I never, ever failed to drop a squirrel with more than a single shot from a .177 Daisy 880.  Now remember, these guns were shooting pellets in the 550-600 fps range I believe.  I always used the "copperhead" ammo that you bought from Walmart, Kmart, Service Merchandise, etc. 

I will never forget the look of utter shock on my friends face one day when I stopped and looked through my scope in the middle of a field one day.  I was looking into the woods and we were a good 100 yards away.  He said "what are you doing?"  About that time, I shot and he heard the thump.  He ran over with me and there laid a nice sized gray squirrel.  I hit him right in the chest and dropped him. 

A .177 has a fantastic trajectory and if you are a very good shot, you can kill almost anything with it.  Now I say anything within reason.  Small game as in the above.  For squirrel hunting, I would hunt with .22, .25 and .177, but I wouldn't hesitate to use a pump .177 again in a heartbeat.  I must have took 200 squirrels with that gun, no exaggeration.

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous.

A .177 at 600 FPS does not have sufficient energy to kill squirrels with chest shots at 20 yards much less 100.  They will run.  At 100Y?  If you'd get incredibly lucky to score a hit at that range, energy is miniscule.

And to call such a rifle flat shooting out to 100 yards is crazy.  Plot the trajectory. 

A gun like that is a 30-40Y squirrel gun with *head shots*, best-case.  I had a good spring-piston in that power range in .177 and hunted with it too.

Maybe you got extremely lucky with a single shot, but it would be highly irresponsible to hunt in such a manner intentionally.

Remember these are this persons “childhood recollections” so... take it all with a few grains of salt. We know that in practical terms the ballistics of his gun don’t support the tales told. Back when I was a kid everything seemed “bigger and further”.

[PaulFWI]

Back when I was growing up in the days of the Daisy 880 and the 12 dollar scope.....I took more squirrels, rabbit, grouse, ground squirrels, you name it, that I could count.

My Daisy 880 with the 12 dollar scope was PINPOINT accurate to as far as I could possibly see.  Yes, this was in .177 of course. 

I used to have the kind of game I would play.  I would observe the squirrel and choose where I would shoot to kill it.  I was always a one shot, one kill kind of kid.  I never, ever failed to drop a squirrel with more than a single shot from a .177 Daisy 880.  Now remember, these guns were shooting pellets in the 550-600 fps range I believe.  I always used the "copperhead" ammo that you bought from Walmart, Kmart, Service Merchandise, etc. 

I will never forget the look of utter shock on my friends face one day when I stopped and looked through my scope in the middle of a field one day.  I was looking into the woods and we were a good 100 yards away.  He said "what are you doing?"  About that time, I shot and he heard the thump.  He ran over with me and there laid a nice sized gray squirrel.  I hit him right in the chest and dropped him. 

A .177 has a fantastic trajectory and if you are a very good shot, you can kill almost anything with it.  Now I say anything within reason.  Small game as in the above.  For squirrel hunting, I would hunt with .22, .25 and .177, but I wouldn't hesitate to use a pump .177 again in a heartbeat.  I must have took 200 squirrels with that gun, no exaggeration.

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous.

A .177 at 600 FPS does not have sufficient energy to kill squirrels with chest shots at 20 yards much less 100.  They will run.  At 100Y?  If you'd get incredibly lucky to score a hit at that range, energy is miniscule.

And to call such a rifle flat shooting out to 100 yards is crazy.  Plot the trajectory. 

A gun like that is a 30-40Y squirrel gun with *head shots*, best-case.  I had a good spring-piston in that power range in .177 and hunted with it too.

Maybe you got extremely lucky with a single shot, but it would be highly irresponsible to hunt in such a manner intentionally.

Remember these are this persons “childhood recollections” so... take it all with a few grains of salt. We know that in practical terms the ballistics of his gun don’t support the tales told. Back when I was a kid everything seemed “bigger and further”.

Yes, that's the best/most charitable interpretation of that tall tale.

[Mole2017]

He is probably not recalling the distance accurately, but I'd believe the kill. Before I figured out the spring in my CFX had broken, it was down to shooting a heavy .177 RWS wad cutter (I forget if it was the Supermag or the Meisterkugeln) in the mid to low 600's and still was killing squirrels at 20 yards with head, neck and chest shots.

For that matter, I took on a squirrel at 15 or 20 yards with my 1377 and broke its arm with a 7.9 grain wad cutter launching in the mid 500s. I suspected I had hit him (and was surprised, actually, with that peep sight and all), but I couldn't get the kill shot on him once he got into a certain pine--too hard to see, twigs in the way, very high angle, and so on, though I tried for many more shots. But I did get him a few days later when I got the R10 up and running again.

[PaulFWI]

Some of my early hunting memories are hazy but I sure never confused 20Y with 100.

If you couldn't estimate distance, you couldn't hit.

I hunted squirrels with a .20 cal Beeman R1 in college in the 90s which had about three times the energy of his gun and much more impact due to the frontal area.  Animals hit in the chest would hold on to a branch or run for 10-20 feet before dropping.  Only a head shot was an instant kill.

[Nomadic Pirate]

How do you get a flat trajectory at 100 with 600fps ? LOL

[BackStop]

How do you get a flat trajectory at 100 with 600fps ? LOL

Ricochet off of at least one flat surface?  (chuckle)

[Nomadic Pirate]

I am having a debate with my friend that goes hunting with me about the .177 for hunting. He says its better because it has a flatter trajectory and they are more available and that the pellets are more common. But the .177 can't retain energy well, and most of its pellets are not even for hunting. Now, we are comparing it to a .22 since I use the .22 and he uses a .177. I said that the .22 almost always has a tiny bit of more ME than the same gun in .177 and that the pellets are heavier and they make a larger wound channel and they retain energy more than the .177 and most of it's pellets are for hunting. But he says that it does not have a good trajectory vs the .177 and that it goes slower than the .177 and the pellets are not as common as the .177 is. What do you think ? .177 or .22 ?

.177 is NOT a hunting caliber !!

I would never use .177 to hunt.

This was NOT taken with a .177 pellet !

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=111596.0

[BackStop]

I am having a debate with my friend that goes hunting with me about the .177 for hunting. He says its better because it has a flatter trajectory and they are more available and that the pellets are more common. But the .177 can't retain energy well, and most of its pellets are not even for hunting. Now, we are comparing it to a .22 since I use the .22 and he uses a .177. I said that the .22 almost always has a tiny bit of more ME than the same gun in .177 and that the pellets are heavier and they make a larger wound channel and they retain energy more than the .177 and most of it's pellets are for hunting. But he says that it does not have a good trajectory vs the .177 and that it goes slower than the .177 and the pellets are not as common as the .177 is. What do you think ? .177 or .22 ?

.177 is NOT a hunting caliber !!

I would never use .177 to hunt.

This was NOT taken with a .177 pellet !

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=111596.0

That depends on what you are "hunting".

No, I would not hunt a wild hog with .177 nor try to kill a Coyote with one, but...

Tree rats, Chipmunks, and many other small game, the .177 is a fine caliber.  FOR HUNTING!  (grin/chuckle)

[Nomadic Pirate]

I am having a debate with my friend that goes hunting with me about the .177 for hunting. He says its better because it has a flatter trajectory and they are more available and that the pellets are more common. But the .177 can't retain energy well, and most of its pellets are not even for hunting. Now, we are comparing it to a .22 since I use the .22 and he uses a .177. I said that the .22 almost always has a tiny bit of more ME than the same gun in .177 and that the pellets are heavier and they make a larger wound channel and they retain energy more than the .177 and most of it's pellets are for hunting. But he says that it does not have a good trajectory vs the .177 and that it goes slower than the .177 and the pellets are not as common as the .177 is. What do you think ? .177 or .22 ?

.177 is NOT a hunting caliber !!

I would never use .177 to hunt.

This was NOT taken with a .177 pellet !

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=111596.0

That depends on what you are "hunting".

Sarcasm brother,....Sarcasm   

That good sized Hog was taken with a .177

[BackStop]

I am having a debate with my friend that goes hunting with me about the .177 for hunting. He says its better because it has a flatter trajectory and they are more available and that the pellets are more common. But the .177 can't retain energy well, and most of its pellets are not even for hunting. Now, we are comparing it to a .22 since I use the .22 and he uses a .177. I said that the .22 almost always has a tiny bit of more ME than the same gun in .177 and that the pellets are heavier and they make a larger wound channel and they retain energy more than the .177 and most of it's pellets are for hunting. But he says that it does not have a good trajectory vs the .177 and that it goes slower than the .177 and the pellets are not as common as the .177 is. What do you think ? .177 or .22 ?

.177 is NOT a hunting caliber !!

I would never use .177 to hunt.

This was NOT taken with a .177 pellet !

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=111596.0

That depends on what you are "hunting".

Sarcasm brother,....Sarcasm   

That good sized Hog was taken with a .177

In my best Emily Litella voice... 


"Oh, well that's different!"


LOL!

[A.K.A. Tommy Boy]

I am having a debate with my friend that goes hunting with me about the .177 for hunting. He says its better because it has a flatter trajectory and they are more available and that the pellets are more common. But the .177 can't retain energy well, and most of its pellets are not even for hunting. Now, we are comparing it to a .22 since I use the .22 and he uses a .177. I said that the .22 almost always has a tiny bit of more ME than the same gun in .177 and that the pellets are heavier and they make a larger wound channel and they retain energy more than the .177 and most of it's pellets are for hunting. But he says that it does not have a good trajectory vs the .177 and that it goes slower than the .177 and the pellets are not as common as the .177 is. What do you think ? .177 or .22 ?

.177 is NOT a hunting caliber !!

I would never use .177 to hunt.

This was NOT taken with a .177 pellet !

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=111596.0

That depends on what you are "hunting".

Sarcasm brother,....Sarcasm   

That good sized Hog was taken with a .177

In my best Emily Litella voice... 


"Oh, well that's different!"


LOL!

177 cal.   Works For Me  !   



Best Wishes My Friends  -  Tom

[nced]

I am having a debate with my friend that goes hunting with me about the .177 for hunting. He says its better because it has a flatter trajectory and they are more available and that the pellets are more common. But the .177 can't retain energy well, and most of its pellets are not even for hunting. Now, we are comparing it to a .22 since I use the .22 and he uses a .177. I said that the .22 almost always has a tiny bit of more ME than the same gun in .177 and that the pellets are heavier and they make a larger wound channel and they retain energy more than the .177 and most of it's pellets are for hunting. But he says that it does not have a good trajectory vs the .177 and that it goes slower than the .177 and the pellets are not as common as the .177 is. What do you think ? .177 or .22 ?

.177 is NOT a hunting caliber !!

I would never use .177 to hunt.

This was NOT taken with a .177 pellet !

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=111596.0

That depends on what you are "hunting".

No, I would not hunt a wild hog with .177 nor try to kill a Coyote with one, but...

Tree rats, Chipmunks, and many other small game, the .177 is a fine caliber.  FOR HUNTING!  (grin/chuckle)

Agree completely!

LOL.....these were taken with a single pellet from either my a .177 Beeman R9 or .177 HW95 (just gotta know yer limits)..........

As mentioned in a previous reply, I hunted squirrels with .177, .20 & .22 cal and after a year with the .20 and six months with the .22 both the .20 & .22 barrels were sold reverting back to .177 never to look back. The main reason was simply that an "off the mark hit" with a .22 pellet didn't work as well as an "on the mark" hit with a penetrating .177 dome and I had a lot more "off the mark" hits with the larger .20/.22 pellets once the distance exceeded my 30 yard zero distance due to a much steeper trajectory. LOL....out to my 30 yard zero distance I didn't see any difference in effectiveness regardless of caliber from my HW95 power level springers! 

 

[ray1377]

I agree with NCED for sure.
Over the years I have killed way more squirrels with a .177 than a .22
And it's for the very reason that a .22 with loopy trajectory is harder for me to be accurate with out past a certain yardage.
Yes, I do realize there are folks who hunt exclusively with a .22 and if I practiced a lot more with my .22 I could hit better at longer ranges.
But why try to fix what isn't broken? I can put a .177 precisely where I want it and know it will do the job I need it to do.
And to be quite honest, a squirrel doesn't know or care what caliber pellet just penetrated his skull and knocked him out of the tree
This is not the first time this comparison of calibers has come up for discussion and it surely won't be the last. LOL

Ray

[rickt300]

Pretty interesting thread. I haven't killed any small game with an air rifle in a long time, since the 70's actually. Though I have killed many birds and rabbits using a Crosman 760 and a Benjamin 392. Honestly with the 760 I liked BB's better. I kept my shots under 15 yards with it and shot for the spine and head. Most of the time at 6 pumps the BB's went all the way through. I do remember losing a couple with rib cage hits but this taught me to shoot for bone. When I got the 392 I felt like it was a big step up at first because I would load the old Crosman "Superpells" backward and they would really open up on the body hits making for quick kills. I still wish I had gotten a 177 model 397 instead like my hunting buddy did because he loaded the same pellets backward in it and did just as well as my 22 did. We eventually got tired of the hard loading backward pellets and started running them normally. We still killed rabbits easily. Squirrels were a different matter, we had to shoot at them farther and without question the domed pellets did better as to penetration but still we had to wait a while for the squirrel to fall out of the tree sometimes. I guess I should clarify that we hunted rabbits at night and would freeze them with a flashlight then being able to get pretty close.  This is legal in Texas and it was all about meat on the table and we did it while trotlining for catfish. Presently my second 392 needs some work and I just ordered a Benjamin Trail NP2 SBD wood stock in 177 caliber. I really want to see how 1000fps or a bit better works on small game though I won't do much hunting after dark. Not that hungry lately.

[Cursum Perficio]

2 years ago I bought a break barrel AR for shooting rabbits around home. Not so much hunting, more pest control.

Did some research, figured out more or less what I wanted and why. Then I called the 4 shops of a large gun retailer. Asked to speak to the resident AR expert at each shop, and asked them a few questions. One question was ".177 or .22 for rabbits".

2 of them told me .177 was best for rabbit shooting, definitely .177.
The other 2 told me definitely go .22 for shooting rabbits.
Cool, thanks for your help   

I went with my intention, which was .22 and it works very well.
I have no doubt that if I'd gone .177 that would have worked well too.
I knows it's about placement and penetration, but I feel more comfortable with a larger pellet for killing small game.

Range I shoot at is mostly 15 to 20 metres, and if I have a steady rest can consistently make good head shots on rabbits.
At 25 to 30 metres I'll make chest shots, have practiced the hold over at 30 metres. I rarely shoot at anything more than 30 metres away (~33 yards),

[nced]

2 years ago I bought a break barrel AR for shooting rabbits around home. Not so much hunting, more pest control.

Did some research, figured out more or less what I wanted and why. Then I called the 4 shops of a large gun retailer. Asked to speak to the resident AR expert at each shop, and asked them a few questions. One question was ".177 or .22 for rabbits".

2 of them told me .177 was best for rabbit shooting, definitely .177.
The other 2 told me definitely go .22 for shooting rabbits.
Cool, thanks for your help   

I went with my intention, which was .22 and it works very well.
I have no doubt that if I'd gone .177 that would have worked well too.
I knows it's about placement and penetration, but I feel more comfortable with a larger pellet for killing small game.

Range I shoot at is mostly 15 to 20 metres, and if I have a steady rest can consistently make good head shots on rabbits.
At 25 to 30 metres I'll make chest shots, have practiced the hold over at 30 metres. I rarely shoot at anything more than 30 metres away (~33 yards),

When I "played" with a .20 and .22 cal barrel on my Beeman R9 (rebadged HW95) instead of the .177 barrel it came with I learned that out to my 30 yard zero distance (30yd= 27.43200m) there wasn't much difference between .177, .20, & .22 with "killzone hits", certainly not enough difference with "off the mark" hits to accept the loopy "fat pellet" trajectory. Matter of fact, even the H&N .20 Crow Magnum pellet was acceptably accurate at 25 yards (about 23 meters) and they expanded well inside a squirrel when shot at 17fpe from my highly tuned R9, however past 30 yards they were more prone to "sail off course".