The .177 for hunting ?

[DWSmith]

Just a little fun with ChairgunPro.
Three pellets all at 900 fps.
                          Energy foot lbs.
Pellet.      Cal.    Muzzle/50yrd/70yrd
CP          .177      15/  9/  7
CP           .22     27/15/11
JSB King.  .25    48/37/28
So there is the story. The 22 has as much knock out power at 50 yards as a .177 has point blank.
And a .25 has as much at 70 yards as a .22 point blank. That's why savvy hunters are buying .25 cal. Guns.

Actually, what you show here and what savvy hunters know is that all 3 calibers can kill a squirrel or rabbit out to 70 yards at that muzzle velocity.  The critical part is shot placement.  Can you get a humane killing shot at 70 yards?  I wouldn't try it.

This shows that the .177 is just as good at killing a squirrel or rabbit at typical hunting distances as the .22 and .25 calibers with proper shot placement.

[Bryan Heimann]

I agree with Dan.  If you don't have a lazer rangefinder, you need to be awfully good at estimating distances to make ethical shots passed about 50 yards- even with a powerful precharged rifle.  A 5 yard error could mean a miss or a gut shot.  I feel like, if you shoot HFT for example, your .177 HFT rig is probably the best gun to hunt with because you probably know that gun really well.  Comparing a powerful PCP to a .177 boinger for squirrels and rabbits is probably moot.  I'm sure they are both equally ethical weapons in the hands of most shooters, without the use of a rangefinder.

[Bullit]

This always ends up into the argument of the penetration of the .177 versus the impact power of the .22.   They are both quite effective, with proper fpe at impact. A 10.4g .177pellet takes less power (fpe) to propel (it at the same velocity) as the 14.4g .22 pellet.
If you want to take the tact for more power from the .22 because of energy retention...that point is a very good one.... If both pellets are traveling at the same velocity at impact.
In real world comparisons, this is rarely the case.   This is when a heavy .177 pellet comes into it's beauty.  Any rifle that produces less than 15fpe muzzle power is not my choice to consider using .22 light pellets.   They both have beauty, but the balance is (IMO) something that deserves much consideration for hunting small game.   This is still "ultralight hunting" afterall...no matter which caliber you use.   Shot placement is still key.

[Bullit]

A good .22 rifle and a good lr subsonic (like by CCI), is a great way to quiet and powerful .22 hunting.
It's still lightweight hunting...

[PaulFWI]

Hey, a spate of sensible posts!

(One thing I'd add is that when you know ranges "in advance" - like in your yard - shots to 60-65 yards with no/light wind and from a good rest are not tough.  But past that it falls off really quickly.)

[K.O.]

I will never say that you can not hunt with a .177 my only point is if you have the rifle to do it going up in caliber does have advantages... some very big such as going to PB barrels shooting cast PB rounds... My current goal is a Hand pumpable 60-80 fpe 22WMR Marauder hunter... sending 30-50 grains down range... Then as I can afford it... A .244 just because...

I have a pic of my Mother some where; It is when she was carrying me (she was in east Texas at the time) point is just about everybody used .22 Powder burners for squirrel then... it is not to much gun and "like shooting a deer with a cannon", She has about 7 in the pic... I came by my taste for squirrel in the womb...

You can train yourself to be very good at estimating range using many various methods and with Air rifles of less than 30-50fpe is one of the most important things you can do to improve your hunting skills...it is important with pb also just longer ranges and knowing trajectories...

if you use a Laser range finder that is all well and good but not necessary imo... I learned long ago when they did not exist...

[DWSmith]

As a side note, don't underestimate the capability of the .22 rimfire that is used on squirrels but usually in a long rifle not a long.

http://www.ammoland.com/2014/11/what-22-rifle-did-bella-twin-use-to-kill-a-world-record-grizzly-in-1953/#axzz3f3PBd7

[PaulFWI]

As a side note, don't underestimate the capability of the .22 rimfire that is used on squirrels but usually in a long rifle not a long.

http://www.ammoland.com/2014/11/what-22-rifle-did-bella-twin-use-to-kill-a-world-record-grizzly-in-1953/#axzz3f3PBd7

Extrapolating backwards, if a 60 FP .22 long is minimum power for a 1,600 lb Grizzly, I can kill squirrels by blowing on them.  I will put all the airguns up for sale then.

[K.O.]

As a side note, don't underestimate the capability of the .22 rimfire that is used on squirrels but usually in a long rifle not a long.

http://www.ammoland.com/2014/11/what-22-rifle-did-bella-twin-use-to-kill-a-world-record-grizzly-in-1953/#axzz3f3PBd7

Extrapolating backwards, if a 60 FP .22 long is minimum power for a 1,600 lb Grizzly, I can kill squirrels by blowing on them.  I will put all the airguns up for sale then.

Hmmm I do have a blowgun and have nailed a fly at 13 yards with it... I wonder if it would penetrate a squirrel skull with some nicotine poison...

[Night_Raider_]

As much as I try to stay away from these threads, I will go ahead and give my opinion.  The caliber you choose depends entirely on the individual's skill, resources, and the rifle's intended purpose.  For my purposes (starlings at ranges varying from 10 yards to 60 yards or more) I will take the .22 every time.  The .22 does have the disadvantage of dropping more at longer ranges, but since I have a laser rangefinder, I can accurately compensate for drop.  In addition, I agree that .177 has more penetration than .22, but I have found that unless a very precise shot is made to the spine, neck, or head of the bird, it penetrates too much and doesn't transfer much of it's energy to the target.  Since .22 has a larger surface area and moves slower, it goes through the bird less easily, transferring more energy to it, and, therefore, it should give cleaner kills with less than stellar shots.  Don't get me wrong, I respect .177 and know it has its niche, but .22 fits the niche I give it better than .177

[PaulFWI]

A.In addition, 22 is affected by wind far less than .177, giving .22 the edge there.

Completely false.

[Night_Raider_]

A.In addition, 22 is affected by wind far less than .177, giving .22 the edge there.

Completely false.

Sorry, thanks for pointing that out.  I thought that heavier projectiles bucked wind better than lighter ones?  Ohhhh, I remember what it was I was thinking.  It was when I was plugging in the numbers for the 10.5 vs 7.9 grain crosman premiers in .177 caliber...  Just plugged it into chairgun and realized my mistake.

[PaulFWI]

A.In addition, 22 is affected by wind far less than .177, giving .22 the edge there.

Completely false.

Sorry, thanks for pointing that out.  I thought that heavier projectiles bucked wind better than lighter ones?  Ohhhh, I remember what it was I was thinking.  It was when I was plugging in the numbers for the 10.5 vs 7.9 grain crosman premiers in .177 caliber...  Just plugged it into chairgun and realized my mistake.

Sorry for being a bit blunt.  I used to believe this too.  But running ballistics here:

http://www.airguns.net/trajectory.php

showed me it is not true.  I think flight time is paramount in wind resistance, so starting velocity is a big fact.  Obviously BC affects this, but at .023 at 15 FPE velocities, the 10.4 gr .177 JSB has better BC than almost any .22 pellet.

And profile area is also obviously going to be very important and the smaller pellets have an advantage there.

I'm not arguing anything; I have PCPs in .22 and .25 and now a .177 springer (TX200) on the way.  As I said somewhere above for me for guns around 15 FPE the .177 is best as it shoots flatter with less wind deflection.

BUT IF I WERE MAINLY HUNTING SQUIRRELS I WOULD NOT SAY THAT.  Squirrels do not fall to body shots with .177 (energy is irrelevant as they pass through at any decent velocity).  My .177 springer is for dispatching starlings and garden rabbits.  I am tired of pumping the PCPs!

[Bryan Heimann]

I was really surprised by the wsf of the .22 vs the .177 as well.  For most pellets, wadcutters and hollowpoints at least, the .22 does do as good or better in the wind in comparison to the same pellet in .177.  But there are some really, really good .177 domed pellets that match or beat their counterparts in .22, at least for a given power level.  I think that the sport of field target has created the demand for especially efficient and wind resistant .177 domes.  If you go by matching velocities instead of power levels, the .22 will beat the .177.

[nced]

Squirrels do not fall to body shots with .177 (energy is irrelevant as they pass through at any decent velocity).
Really? I've had no issue with a single .177 CPL at 14fpe (at the muzzle) that zip through both lungs creating both an entry hole and exit hole! Here is a pic showing a one squirrel taken with a single CPL though the lung/heart area, and I have done it MANY times, but I do prefer a hit between the eye and ear like the other squirrel in the pic.................
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
I do have to admit that when shooting .177 or .20 or .22 cal pellets if the squirrel was within a few feet of a "tree hole" I will pass up a double lung hit because they will occasionally travel a few feet after the hit, but for some reason others will drop on the spot with a similar .177 cal hit. A hit between the eye or ear however is always "lights out" and I'll take that shot even if only a foot out of the tree hole!
As far as pellet dumping all it's mighty R9 level fpe (maybe 8fpe) into a squirrel making a real difference.........I really don't buy that after having more than a couple squirrels take a 100+fpe double lung hit from a .22 rimfire and still keep trucking for a few feet after the hit! I didn't find that the .22 cal pellet had enough added effectiveness to offset the loopy trajectory which required an exceptionally accurate range "guestimation" if past the zero distance, especially if the resulting hit was "off the mark due to incorrect holdover! When I was shooting .20/.22 pellets at my R9 power level I had too many off the mark hits past my zero distance so I was limited to shots no further than my zero distance! Anywhoo....I always was more effective using the .177 for hunting tree squirrels in WV than I was for the year and half that I used a .20 & .22, but there are a lot of good shooters like yourself that take exception to my position!

Whatever works best for you is what you should be using.........not what I or anyone else is claiming! 

[Night_Raider_]

I was really surprised by the wsf of the .22 vs the .177 as well.  For most pellets, wadcutters and hollowpoints at least, the .22 does do as good or better in the wind in comparison to the same pellet in .177.  But there are some really, really good .177 domed pellets that match or beat their counterparts in .22, at least for a given power level.  I think that the sport of field target has created the demand for especially efficient and wind resistant .177 domes.  If you go by matching velocities instead of power levels, the .22 will beat the .177.

I had thought that I had seen some numbers that I had plugged in showing .22 beating .177 in drift, and I think I found them.  When I went back and re-entered some data I discovered what I had remembered from before: A .22 JSB 18.1 grain pellet being pushed at 740fps is less susceptible to wind than a .177
10.5 grain CPUM at the 800fps my springer spits them out at, at least at 50 yards or under; I forgot to check other ranges while I was at it.  I have never really used much of anything other than CP in .177, so I forgot to factor in other better pellets for that caliber.  I guess that's what happens when I go making generalizations with limited amounts of data.  I probably should have said something more like: "The pellets I use most often in .177 are just as if not more susceptible to wind drift than the .22, giving .22 the edge in my situation."

Whatever works best for you is what you should be using.........not what I or anyone else is claiming! 

Couldn't have said it better myself

[Bryan Heimann]

18.13 grains traveling at 740 feet per second is a whole lot more power than a 800 fps 10.5 grain pellet.  Generally, shooting mid-powered springers, .177 is the way to go if wind drift is something you are really worried about- and only with the best domes like jsb, h&n, or crosman premiers.

[PaulFWI]

Squirrels do not fall to body shots with .177 (energy is irrelevant as they pass through at any decent velocity).
Really? I've had no issue with a single .177 CPL at 14fpe (at the muzzle) that zip through both lungs creating both an entry hole and exit hole! Here is a pic showing a one squirrel taken with a single CPL though the lung/heart area, and I have done it MANY times, but I do prefer a hit between the eye and ear like the other squirrel in the pic.................
I do have to admit that when shooting .177 or .20 or .22 cal pellets if the squirrel was within a few feet of a "tree hole" I will pass up a double lung hit because they will occasionally travel a few feet after the hit, but for some reason others will drop on the spot with a similar .177 cal hit.

In my experience - which was a long time ago - they will often travel after being hit with a .177, even a perfect shot, through the chest.  Too risky.  It seems far less likely with .22 and even .20 if you have enough energy.  I have not hunting squirrels in about 25 years but I did it with an R1 and an RWS gun in .177.  I was also relying on others' testimony there. 

[PaulFWI]

18.13 grains traveling at 740 feet per second is a whole lot more power than a 800 fps 10.5 grain pellet.  Generally, shooting mid-powered springers, .177 is the way to go if wind drift is something you are really worried about- and only with the best domes like jsb, h&n, or crosman premiers.

Exactly.  In running a lot of numbers comparing .177 to .22 in an AA TX200 the 10.3 gr JSB .177 was the flattest and "narrowest" (smaller wind drift) than anything else by a good margin, including over the best .22 pellet.

[JPowell490]

Back when I was growing up in the days of the Daisy 880 and the 12 dollar scope.....I took more squirrels, rabbit, grouse, ground squirrels, you name it, that I could count.

My Daisy 880 with the 12 dollar scope was PINPOINT accurate to as far as I could possibly see.  Yes, this was in .177 of course. 

I used to have the kind of game I would play.  I would observe the squirrel and choose where I would shoot to kill it.  I was always a one shot, one kill kind of kid.  I never, ever failed to drop a squirrel with more than a single shot from a .177 Daisy 880.  Now remember, these guns were shooting pellets in the 550-600 fps range I believe.  I always used the "copperhead" ammo that you bought from Walmart, Kmart, Service Merchandise, etc. 

I will never forget the look of utter shock on my friends face one day when I stopped and looked through my scope in the middle of a field one day.  I was looking into the woods and we were a good 100 yards away.  He said "what are you doing?"  About that time, I shot and he heard the thump.  He ran over with me and there laid a nice sized gray squirrel.  I hit him right in the chest and dropped him. 

A .177 has a fantastic trajectory and if you are a very good shot, you can kill almost anything with it.  Now I say anything within reason.  Small game as in the above.  For squirrel hunting, I would hunt with .22, .25 and .177, but I wouldn't hesitate to use a pump .177 again in a heartbeat.  I must have took 200 squirrels with that gun, no exaggeration.