GTA
Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 and springers ,rams => Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 => Topic started by: NinjaPaintballRay on February 06, 2013, 12:43:52 PM
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Mods - please move this to the right section on this forum or please let me know where I should post this if this is the wrong section for this type of post.
UPDATED - includes picture. Finally found out how to post one up on here :D
Hi everyone. My name's Rob and I work for a company called Ninja Paintball, a division of Pressure Specialist Inc located outside of Chicago, IL. We are a machine shop that specializes in high pressure air products, mainly for the paintball industry. We have been manufacturing products for several manufacturers in the AirGun industry over the last few years and have seen a need for a product that would give you guys a mobile, fast, safe, and easy way to fill the air cylinders on your rifles and pistols.
Our company manufacturers a 90cubic inch bottle that is rated to hold 4500psi. We would then install a regulator at the top of the bottle that would regulate the 4500psi inside the bottle down to say 3000psi or whatever output pressure you choose (ranging from 250psi on the low end all the way up to 3000psi currently). You would then screw the regulator (attached to the bottle) into what we call our PCP Fill Station. The PCP Fill Station device has a Universal Fill Adapter with an on/off know to allow the air to flow out of the bottle and regulator. The air would travel into the Universal Fill Adapter, down a steel braided line and then into our fill device. The fill device has a vent knob on the side to vent the air after you fill your cylinder and it also has a Quick Disconnect fitting you can use to attach the fitting on your cylinder or whatever fill adapter you need to make to have the device work with your fitting on your particular air cylinder.
Here's the total package including PCP Fill Station and 90ci/4500psi bottle.
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af33/Pharcyide/PCPFillSolution_zpsf85d3ed0.jpg)
We are on the verge of releasing the products and are waiting on the manuals to be finalized. For just the PCP Fill Station, you are looking at a MSRP of $76.95. The 90ci/4500psi bottle with custom output regulator (you designate the output pressure) should MSRP at $224.95.
The PCP Fill Station setup weights roughly 1 lb
The 90ci/4500psi Bottle with Regulator weighs roughly 3lbs 8oz.
That means you would have a mobile filling solution, capable of filling at a minimum of 2 full fills, that would weigh under 5 lbs.
We tested the system with a Benjamin Marauder Air Cylinder and here are our results:
We were able to get (2) full fills in the Benjamin Marauder Air Cylinder off of our 90ci/4500psi bottle and regulator. What we did was empty the cylinder of all pressure. Then filled the cylinder to the recommended pressure. We then bled all of the air out of the cylinder, bring the pressure down to 0 again. We then filled the cylinder all the way up to the recommended pressure again. We bled the air a third time and on the third fill, we were able to get roughly 600psi in the cylinder. We understand that you will fill the cylinders before it reaches zero but hopefully this data will help you determine how many fills you may be able to achieve at the pressure you refill at and the size of your cylinder.
All of our fittings, hoses, and products are properly rated for this application. We are part of the ASTM sub-committee for paintball so we make sure to follow the safety recommendations which means our regulator will include (2) safety burst disks which we hold the patent on.
If anyone has any specific questions, please post in here. I will do my best to keep an eye on this thread. Again, it will be a few weeks or so before we're able to start selling these since we're waiting on our manual to be finalized but we're close. I just wanted to post this to see what your guys' thoughts are on this solution. Any feedback or recommendations you guys have would be greatly appreciated.
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Thanks for the heads up on your new product.
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The price sounds good and I'm looking forward to picking one up. Make sure to post when they are available for purchase. 90ci/4500psi->output 3000psi.
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Thanks for posting guys and we're happy to hear you guys like the product and pricing. Here's another item we manufacture that you guys could hypothetically use to fill. I received a call from someone that had purchased one of these off of Ebay and has attached it to this larger SCBA tank to fill his air cylinders.
This device is called our High Pressure Fill Station. Its basically a regulator for large bulk cylinders. We include a CGA-677 fitting that you would use to attach the device to the bulk tank's valve. The gentleman I spoke to yesterday stated he removed the CGA to attach a different fitting to make it work with his SCBA tank. The device is capable of regulating anywhere from 5000psi all the way down to 500psi. You set the output pressure using an adjustment screw on the top plate. We include (2) gauges, one that reads the output pressure and one that reads the pressure thats left in your bulk tank. Not sure if you guys know about this but you can contact a national gas supplier to see if you can rent a large bulk cylinder, which generally costs about $115 + hazmat/delivery charges/fuel surcharge/rental rates. Rates will vary from supplier to supplier but with this solution, you would be able to get a LOT more fills. Some of these tanks are about 300cu ft and rated at 5000psi. The other option would be to remove the CGA fitting and attach another fitting that would work with the large cylinder you're filling from.
Here's a picture of our High Pressure Fill Station:
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af33/Pharcyide/IMG_0537_zpscabc729b.jpg)
The Quick Disconnect fitting is properly rated at 5000psi.
On another note, I would love to get some feedback from everyone on what you guys would like to see in terms of filling the air cylinders. What would be ideal for the mass market? Do you guys prefer manual hand pumps over our bottle/regulator or fill station design? All recommendations from you guys are welcome.
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HI Rob.... There is a Fill Calculator here you should have a look at.... http://www.calc.sikes.us/2/index.php (http://www.calc.sikes.us/2/index.php) .... It predicts about 7 fills of a Crosman Marauder (215 cc) from 1500 psi to 3000 psi if you start with a 90 CI tank filled to 4500 psi.... It might be slightly less (say 6 fills) because of the volume wasted in the fill station and hose.... That makes it a VERY useful product although at $300 for the fill station, regulator, and tank, it's a bit pricy....
In my experience, the currently available hand pumps are not particularly pleasant to use, and tend to have a servicability problem.... Most guys don't have the room for a 300 CF Nitrogen tank (or access to getting it filled, if they live in the country like I do).... so they have 3000-3500 psi SCUBA tanks (typically 80 CF) or 4500 psiSCBA tanks (typically 66-88 CF) and get them filled at a SCUBA or Paintball station.... or have a "ShoeBox" compressor.... That's a neat little compressor that fills the gap between a hand pump and a full blown SCUBA compressor which typically costs $3000.... They are a bit slow (4 CF / hr.), but in the $550 range, and they have just brought out an upgraded model that is twice as fast, but $1100.... It's too bad that we can't have a 10 CF / hr. compressor than was well under $1000.... A source of lower priced SCUBA / SCBA sized tanks and fittings for home filling use would also be great....
Thanks for having a long, hard look at what we need, and asking the appropriate questions.... When a manufacturer does this kind of research for future product development, everyone wins.... As requested, I moved this to the appropriate Gate....
Bob
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Bob, thank you for moving this to the appropriate Gate. I'm still learning where everything goes on these forums and I appreciate the help.
It was also very nice talking to you today and picking your brain about some ideas on what you feel would be an optimal filling solution for you and other airgun users. I have some other projects in the works here at Ninja and I think some of the projects we're currently working on behind the scenes will be a really good fit. Once we're able to release some more information, I'll make sure to let you guys know.
If anyone else has any other suggestions or things you have on your wishlist in terms of filling the cylinders, please let me know. I'm also available to take any calls if you guys would like to speak on the phone in detail. Our toll free number is 877-646-5287 and i'm at extension 309.
Thanks again everyone. We really appreciate your input.
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I just wanted to say that I've got one of your 13ci 3000psi regulated to 1100psi tanks on my QB79 and it's the shizz. Nice product. Fits perfectly.
Keep up the good work!
Mark
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Thanks, Mark! How many shots are you getting off of the 13ci/3000psi bottle with an output of 1100psi before you need to refill the cylinder?
Hypothetically speaking, if someone came out with a cylinder that is similar in width to the 13ci/3000psi bottle or maybe slightly larger in diameter but also longer, would it be beneficial to you? We're wondering if a slightly longer or larger aluminum bottle might be better or if there are any size/length restrictions which force you to use a smaller bottle.
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Thanks, Mark! How many shots are you getting off of the 13ci/3000psi bottle with an output of 1100psi before you need to refill the cylinder?
Hypothetically speaking, if someone came out with a cylinder that is similar in width to the 13ci/3000psi bottle or maybe slightly larger in diameter but also longer, would it be beneficial to you? We're wondering if a slightly longer or larger aluminum bottle might be better or if there are any size/length restrictions which force you to use a smaller bottle.
I have a QB79 with one of the Ninja 13 ci tanks reg. ~850. The tank must be less than 2 inches to work without a adapter.
I fill to 2500 psi and refill at 1000 psi and get over 50 shots.
I am putting another one together (QB78) and am probably going to convert it from 12 gram carts. to HPA at 1100 psi so please don't increase the tank diameter.
I do not need larger capacity although I am sure some do. In fact if I could get a ~7 ci with a smaller diameter I probably would.
I am not going to be to far from my scuba tank at any given time. ;)
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I just wanted to say thanks for joining up and sharing with us.
Double thanks for calling them "cylinders" and not tanks.
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Thanks, Mark! How many shots are you getting off of the 13ci/3000psi bottle with an output of 1100psi before you need to refill the cylinder?
Hypothetically speaking, if someone came out with a cylinder that is similar in width to the 13ci/3000psi bottle or maybe slightly larger in diameter but also longer, would it be beneficial to you? We're wondering if a slightly longer or larger aluminum bottle might be better or if there are any size/length restrictions which force you to use a smaller bottle.
I have a QB79 with one of the Ninja 13 ci tanks reg. ~850. The tank must be less than 2 inches to work without a adapter.
I fill to 2500 psi and refill at 1000 psi and get over 50 shots.
I am putting another one together (QB78) and am probably going to convert it from 12 gram carts. to HPA at 1100 psi so please don't increase the tank diameter.
I do not need larger capacity although I am sure some do. In fact if I could get a ~7 ci with a smaller diameter I probably would.
I am not going to be to far from my scuba tank at any given time. ;)
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Thanks for the reply. I just had a meeting with our owner and Sales Manager about your guys' recommendations. I dont think we'll be able to source a smaller cylinder (around 7ci with a 2" or smaller diameter) as the manufacturer we use here in the United States does not have something that small. Being that it would be a very niche item, I dont know if we could justify spending the money to get the minimum quantity ordered to have them try and manufacturer it.
Great recommendation though! Keep em coming guys, we're all ears.
I just wanted to say thanks for joining up and sharing with us.
Double thanks for calling them "cylinders" and not tanks.
Thanks for having us and letting a manufacturer pick your guys' brains for ideas on what you guys are looking for and no problem on the correct terminology ;)
Thanks again for all the help guys
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Nice products, but a bit pricey, for the narrow/niche area of use.
( basically used in the field, on a hunt,Where you will not be near your regular cylinder,... AND ,... Planning on making 100+ shots ?
jmo
I just kind of figure if I'm going to be making 100 - 200 - 300 shots, my regular cylinder is going to be nearby.
Don't get me wrong,.. I'm not trying to knock it at all. I'd LOVE to have one myself, and it IS Very COOL,.... ( just not $300+ Cool ).
Most true hunters, don't take that many shots when ** out on the hunt for game **. Sometimes, they may not see any game, and never take a single shot, before they are back to their truck, (where their regular cylinder is anyway),.... and then there is also the 5lbs added to the backpack.
I dunno,... just running thought through my head.
Whereas, paintballers,... have very different requirements. They DO plan on taking as many shots as possible, before returning to their main filling cylinders.
Think about it this way. For just about $200 more,... we could have a Shoebox, and Re-fill our own larger tanks.... (no more filling charges @ $4 to $$7 bucks each time.) The more I shoot, the faster it pays for itself.
I Dunno,... just running thoughts through my head, and trying to justify the cost vs. value.
It would need to be considerably cheaper for it to make it onto my ** I-Gotta-Have-It ** List .
Maybe We'll get lucky, and see one soon on the GTA Monthly Raffle !!! ;) ;) ;)
Now THAT would be COOL ! (and,... get your product some welcomed exposure too boot) !
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Nice products, but a bit pricey, for the narrow/niche area of use.
( basically used in the field, on a hunt,Where you will not be near your regular cylinder,... AND ,... Planning on making 100+ shots ?
jmo
I just kind of figure if I'm going to be making 100 - 200 - 300 shots, my regular cylinder is going to be nearby.
Don't get me wrong,.. I'm not trying to knock it at all. I'd LOVE to have one myself, and it IS Very COOL,.... ( just not $300+ Cool ).
Most true hunters, don't take that many shots when ** out on the hunt for game **. Sometimes, they may not see any game, and never take a single shot, before they are back to their truck, (where their regular cylinder is anyway),.... and then there is also the 5lbs added to the backpack.
I dunno,... just running thought through my head.
Whereas, paintballers,... have very different requirements. They DO plan on taking as many shots as possible, before returning to their main filling cylinders.
Think about it this way. For just about $200 more,... we could have a Shoebox, and Re-fill our own larger tanks.... (no more filling charges @ $4 to $$7 bucks each time.) The more I shoot, the faster it pays for itself.
I Dunno,... just running thoughts through my head, and trying to justify the cost vs. value.
It would need to be considerably cheaper for it to make it onto my ** I-Gotta-Have-It ** List .
Maybe We'll get lucky, and see one soon on the GTA Monthly Raffle !!! ;) ;) ;)
Now THAT would be COOL ! (and,... get your product some welcomed exposure too boot) !
PERFECT! This is the exact kind of feedback we're looking for. We want to make sure we address all concerns, whether its on price, how widely used you think the product will be, how well you think the product will work in your application, and anything else you guys can come up with.
Right now, one of your solutions is to buy a scuba tank and a scuba fill station. Scuba tanks are only rated at 3000psi and are a bit heavy and hard to move around. You get one fill at 3000psi and every subsequent fill after that drops in pressure. With our system, you should receive about 6 full 3000psi fills and the bottles are easily filled at just about any paintball store or field and some dive centers.
Another option is the Shoebox. I was under the impression you need a compressor to run those? If so, then if you spend $649 on the lowest model shoebox (or $1100 on their new Freedom8) + whatever the cost is on the compressor to act as the drive source, you're actually spending quite a bit more than our solution. I just want to make sure when we're talking about pricing, we're looking at the big picture and comparing apples to apples. Our cost is $300 vs $649 on the low end for the Shoebox + another few hundred dollars on the drive source. The solution you refer to would cost someone twice as much as ours if you do not have a compressor. Would this assumption be correct?
Here's a question for you since I hear about the Shoebox in a lot of my conversations with AirGun owners. Hypothetically speaking, if a company were to come out with a compressor that you could use at home and plug into something like a Dryer socket for your washer/dryer unit, be able to fill a 90ci/4500psi rated bottle in under 15 minutes, and NOT have to buy a drive source to make it operate, do you guys feel that would be the ideal solution for filling your air cylinders? If so, would $2000-$3500 be too much money to spend on this solution?
Thanks again everyone.
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First, Just as a disclamer, I'm not saying this system has no market.
Certainly it does.
As I said, it would be pretty cool to have.
Yes the Shoebox is a aux pump that needs a minimum 80(?)psi source.
but it does not take an expensive large compressor. A suitable 110v compressor for that can be regularly purchased for around $39.
Again, I do very much like the product.
It's just a cost vs. value vs. usage thing for me.
($300 gets me pretty close to buying yet another PCP rifle too :o , gotta feed the addiction, ya' know) , ;D ;D ;D
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Here is some feed back for you.
I like the idea of your 90 ci Cylinder and may well purchase one in the near future. My primary use will be to use at the range tethered to allow me to shoot from the bench longer without having to stop to refill. The problem I see (or at least an inconveinance) is that the end with the foster Q/D that attaches to the gun has the bleeder and block attached. That would induce a lot of stress on the foster fitting as well as the hose. If you could move the block/bleeder to the end that attaches to the cylinder. That could be avoided. Of course that could probably be easily accomplished by the end user rearranging the fittings.
I use a Shoebox compressor and really enjoy the freedom it provides. I am currently filling small 3000psi aluminum SCBA 10 minute "Escape" cylinders. These reculated cylinders that you will be offering would be an improvement on my set up.
It would be dificult for me to justify a $2500 compressor over the $650 I bought. I already had a shop compressor and the SCBA cylinders where free. Another $165 to Joe for fittings to fill and I was set. Didn't even consider the $1100 Freedom8. I would use the difference to purchase extra cylinders to keep full. Shoot as I pleased and rotate the cylinders through filling as necesary.
We PCPers are cheap when it comes to filling. I could by a really nice rifle with $2500...if not 2 or 3. ;)
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First, Just as a disclamer, I'm not saying this system has no market.
Certainly it does.
As I said, it would be pretty cool to have.
Yes the Shoebox is a aux pump that needs a minimum 80(?)psi source.
but it does not take an expensive large compressor. A suitable 110v compressor for that can be regularly purchased for around $39.
Again, I do very much like the product.
It's just a cost vs. value vs. usage thing for me.
($300 gets me pretty close to buying yet another PCP rifle too :o , gotta feed the addiction, ya' know) , ;D ;D ;D
Hi tri-5-ron. Sorry, I dont want you to get the wrong impression. We greatly appreciate any feedback you and everyone else can offer. As a manufacturer, we have to address all concerns people are bringing up. The one we're hearing the most is the Shoebox so I just want to make sure we cover everything when it comes to using that system versus ours.
The up front costs of the Shoebox + drive source would just be twice as much as our bottle and fill station combination. We understand not everyone has a paintball store or field in their area they can easily get 4500psi fills from so our system wont be ideal for everyone. If you do have a place to get 4500psi fills from and you're looking for fast or portable way to fill, then this might be something to look at. With getting roughly 6 fills on a Benjamin Maurader and only have to pay roughly $5-$7 for a fill on the 4500psi bottle your'e filling from, this could be a much lower up front cost versus using the Shoebox. Also, there is another company that already manufactures and sells a smaller carbon fiber tank, similar to what we have, but it retails for $400. Ours give you about 20ci more volume and at a $100 less.
Another thing I would be worried about with using a $40 compressor with the Shoebox is running it for hours at a time. We dont have one here to try out so hopefully you guys can shed some light on this for me. Has anyone used a very inexpensive compressor in conjunction with the Shoebox and run it for 4+ hours and not have any issues? Im thinking with the cost of the Shoebox + drive source + time it takes to fill, maybe a small compressor capable of filling a cylinder with 4500psi in a matter of minutes at a lower cost than what you might expect to pay from a company like Bauer, would be more ideal for the mass market.
What do you guys think about a compressor system that could do the above but for around $2000-$3500? Would this solution be too expensive for home use?
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Here is some feed back for you.
I like the idea of your 90 ci Cylinder and may well purchase one in the near future. My primary use will be to use at the range tethered to allow me to shoot from the bench longer without having to stop to refill. The problem I see (or at least an inconveinance) is that the end with the foster Q/D that attaches to the gun has the bleeder and block attached. That would induce a lot of stress on the foster fitting as well as the hose. If you could move the block/bleeder to the end that attaches to the cylinder. That could be avoided. Of course that could probably be easily accomplished by the end user rearranging the fittings.
I use a Shoebox compressor and really enjoy the freedom it provides. I am currently filling small 3000psi aluminum SCBA 10 minute "Escape" cylinders. These reculated cylinders that you will be offering would be an improvement on my set up.
It would be dificult for me to justify a $2500 compressor over the $650 I bought. I already had a shop compressor and the SCBA cylinders where free. Another $165 to Joe for fittings to fill and I was set. Didn't even consider the $1100 Freedom8. I would use the difference to purchase extra cylinders to keep full. Shoot as I pleased and rotate the cylinders through filling as necesary.
We PCPers are cheap when it comes to filling. I could by a really nice rifle with $2500...if not 2 or 3. ;)
Hey guys. Just getting ready to wrap up and go home for the night. If anyone posts after I leave, i'll make sure to respond when I get back to the office in the morning. We're getting hit with some heavy snowfall here in Chicago and I dont want to be trapped at work all night :)
The fittings we have on our products are properly rated at either 3000psi or 5000psi, depending on the application. These are manufactured by Foster Manufacturing and they were tested to NFPA/T2.6.1 ANNEX C which is from the National Fluid Power Association. The 5000psi QD has a 5,000psi working pressure and a 20,000psi minimum burst pressure. The 3000psi QD has a 3000psi working pressure with a 12,000 psi minimum burst pressure. Since our company is part of the ASTM sub-committee that helps set standards in paintball, we take liability issues very seriously and make sure our products are properly rated and tested/certified.
We were thinking the same thing on the retail price of a possible home compressor setup and thank you for giving us your feedback on this. At even $2500, I understand that this system would be pretty expensive compared to the Shoebox system. I think it would really boil down to how quickly someone wants to fill their bottles, pricing, and easy of use when looking at compressors. Not sure if we'll get into this realm but its something we're looking at.
If you're more worried about price and you do have a readily available place to get a 4500psi fill, then our setup might be something to look into. At a rough cost of $300 + $5-$7 for a fill, that should significantly reduce any up front costs if the person does not want to use a 3000psi rated scuba tank system or the Shoebox or a large 44 or 88cf SCBA bottle.
Everyone - I want to thank you again for participating in this discussion and lending us a hand. Have a great night and i'm looking forward to reading more responses in the morning
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For some people (small shops, groups, and smiths) a ~$2500 electric stand alone compressor would be ideal. I'd probably jump on one if I where looking at retiring or otherwise being able to shoot ALOT.
The compressor that feeds a shoebox kicks on less frequently than when using a nail gun regularly. Much less than when using die grinders or impact wrenches.
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Rob,
No problem, and no worries... we're good ! Really !
I never intended to paint a dark picture, and certainly not imply any negativity.
Thank you for recognizing that. I also recognized your honest desire to get real world feedback.
That is what's most important when trying to bring a product to market. (I'm a small business owner too.)
Sure there are many options, and combinations that will work for some, and not so well for others.
Some of them costing more than others.
You have received some very valuable suggestions already. Yeah, I agree that the valve block should be moved closer to the cylinder.
In fact, (and if possible), could it be manufactured so that the cylinder simply mounts into the valve block ? i.e.- no hose between cylinder and block.
AGers are generally the "tinkering type".
We actually ENJOY altering manufacturer's design's, and modifying products and equipment to our needs and preferences.
(and those of us who walk on "the Dark Side" are the very worst ! LOL!)
The GTA is about as perfect a place you could come to, to get these types of suggestions and ideas.
Consider sending a unit or two on loan, to one of the Admins here on the GTA.
I'm quite sure the guys who meet up at some of the "Fun Shoots", would be thrilled to test it out, and provide unbiased reviews.
Also consider your marketing strategies, and how to get the best exposure and recognition.
Think about some things that we hold in high value and honorable gestures.
WW programs, Youth programs, and Raffles come to mind.
I wish you the very best, and for your products great success.
Ron
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I agree on the comments about having the bleed valve closer to the tank, and just a hose leading to the gun.... In fact, a 1-piece assembly that screwed onto the regulator and incorporated the pin-valve control and a bleeder would be a nicer arrangement.... If it had an adjustable regulator and a GOOD gauge for the output pressure, it could then work for a variety of guns.... The other option is to eliminate the regulator completely, put in a flow restrictor and/or an easy to operate needle valve and just fill the gun manually to whatever pressure you want.... All you need is a way to attach to the tank (directly), a male Foster with check for filling the tank (and a 7.5K burst disc), a needle valve to regulate the flow rate (and/or a flow restrictor) with a good gauge (1.5" minimum with 100 psi increments, 3500 psi scale, like they use on hand pumps) on the downstream side, a bleed valve, (OK, a 3.5K burst disc for safety, surely they can be custom made) and a hose ending in a female Foster.... Most of us fill that way now from a SCUBA or SCBA tank, and there is something to be said for the simplicity and reliability of not having a regulator to fail.... In addition, there is no regulator to reset when changing from a 2000 psi Disco to a 3000 psi MRod, for example.... just stop filling at the appropriate pressure for the gun....
RE the compressor, I'm thinking that something in between a Freedom 8 Shoebox and a full blown SCUBA compressor (but without the need for breathable quality air) might be a better bet.... If you're trying to sell mostly to the guys running Paintball centers, who want to fill a bank of 300 CF tanks for refilling smaller ones, that's a whole different story.... A few airgun guys might be prepared to spend over $2000 to get 15 minute fills, I wouldn't, even though I live 3 hours away from the nearest SCUBA fill station.... I can live with my ShoeBox and a SCUBA tank (barely).... If it was possible to get a compressor that would put out 10-20 CF per hour at up to 4500 psi, and the price was more in the $1000-1500 range, then I'd be very interested.... A compressor doing 16 CF per hour could fill your 90CI tank / fill station in an hour from empty, and 20 minutes to top up from 3000 psi (or 35 min. from 2000).... It could top up an 88 CF SCBA tank from 3000 psi to 4500 in less than 2 hours.... I'm sure THAT would be plenty fast enough for 99% of airgunners.... and might well enhance the sale of your portable fill station....
Bob
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John B - Thank you for that recommendation. Do you guys feel that if we were to move the bleed valve closer to our regulator/cylinder and then maybe give you a fill line/fill whip with the proper fittings to connect it to the Quick Disconnect fitting on the bleed valve and have another Quick Disconnect on the other end of the line? If so, what would be the ideal length of the line going from the bleed valve to the air cylinder on the gun?
For some people (small shops, groups, and smiths) a ~$2500 electric stand alone compressor would be ideal. I'd probably jump on one if I where looking at retiring or otherwise being able to shoot ALOT.
The compressor that feeds a shoebox kicks on less frequently than when using a nail gun regularly. Much less than when using die grinders or impact wrenches.
I was thinking the same thing. I have a feeling if a lower cost, high output compressor were to be offered, it would probably be better suited for people that have either retired and looking to shoot a lot, ranges, as well as small shops and smiths. At the price the compressor would need to be offered at, we dont know if its something the average home user would purchase. We are still looking into this though ;)
That is interesting about the drive source for the shoebox. I think if Tom were to find a way to do a quicker fill with those, he might have a perfect product on his hands.
Rob,
No problem, and no worries... we're good ! Really !
I never intended to paint a dark picture, and certainly not imply any negativity.
Thank you for recognizing that. I also recognized your honest desire to get real world feedback.
That is what's most important when trying to bring a product to market. (I'm a small business owner too.)
Sure there are many options, and combinations that will work for some, and not so well for others.
Some of them costing more than others.
You have received some very valuable suggestions already. Yeah, I agree that the valve block should be moved closer to the cylinder.
In fact, (and if possible), could it be manufactured so that the cylinder simply mounts into the valve block ? i.e.- no hose between cylinder and block.
AGers are generally the "tinkering type".
We actually ENJOY altering manufacturer's design's, and modifying products and equipment to our needs and preferences.
(and those of us who walk on "the Dark Side" are the very worst ! LOL!)
The GTA is about as perfect a place you could come to, to get these types of suggestions and ideas.
Consider sending a unit or two on loan, to one of the Admins here on the GTA.
I'm quite sure the guys who meet up at some of the "Fun Shoots", would be thrilled to test it out, and provide unbiased reviews.
Also consider your marketing strategies, and how to get the best exposure and recognition.
Think about some things that we hold in high value and honorable gestures.
WW programs, Youth programs, and Raffles come to mind.
I wish you the very best, and for your products great success.
Ron
Good morning, Ron. Thanks again for the recommendations. We have already started looking at airgun shows and Im speaking with our owner about attending Flag City Toys That Shoot. After speaking with Dennis at Quackenbush and Boris at Pyramyd Air, they both highly recommended we go. The show is booked with vendors but im speaking with the organizers to see if there's anything they can do to squeeze us in. We're also looking at several other shows so hopefully we can start getting this product in front of people. So far, this is the only Airgun related website that this has been listed on so you guys are the first in the world, besides the people that saw it at Shot Show, to see what we've developed.
I will speak to our owner about possibly sending out a sample. I dont know if I can do this but its something I can ask. I'll send an email to one of the mods this morning and see who would be the best person to send it to and then go from there. It would be great to have someone do an actual review and give you guys some real world data from someone unbiased and not working for or with our company.
I agree on the comments about having the bleed valve closer to the tank, and just a hose leading to the gun.... In fact, a 1-piece assembly that screwed onto the regulator and incorporated the pin-valve control and a bleeder would be a nicer arrangement.... If it had an adjustable regulator and a GOOD gauge for the output pressure, it could then work for a variety of guns.... The other option is to eliminate the regulator completely, put in a flow restrictor and/or an easy to operate needle valve and just fill the gun manually to whatever pressure you want.... All you need is a way to attach to the tank (directly), a male Foster with check for filling the tank (and a 7.5K burst disc), a needle valve to regulate the flow rate (and/or a flow restrictor) with a good gauge (1.5" minimum with 100 psi increments, 3500 psi scale, like they use on hand pumps) on the downstream side, a bleed valve, (OK, a 3.5K burst disc for safety, surely they can be custom made) and a hose ending in a female Foster.... Most of us fill that way now from a SCUBA or SCBA tank, and there is something to be said for the simplicity and reliability of not having a regulator to fail.... In addition, there is no regulator to reset when changing from a 2000 psi Disco to a 3000 psi MRod, for example.... just stop filling at the appropriate pressure for the gun....
RE the compressor, I'm thinking that something in between a Freedom 8 Shoebox and a full blown SCUBA compressor (but without the need for breathable quality air) might be a better bet.... If you're trying to sell mostly to the guys running Paintball centers, who want to fill a bank of 300 CF tanks for refilling smaller ones, that's a whole different story.... A few airgun guys might be prepared to spend over $2000 to get 15 minute fills, I wouldn't, even though I live 3 hours away from the nearest SCUBA fill station.... I can live with my ShoeBox and a SCUBA tank (barely).... If it was possible to get a compressor that would put out 10-20 CF per hour at up to 4500 psi, and the price was more in the $1000-1500 range, then I'd be very interested.... A compressor doing 16 CF per hour could fill your 90CI tank / fill station in an hour from empty, and 20 minutes to top up from 3000 psi (or 35 min. from 2000).... It could top up an 88 CF SCBA tank from 3000 psi to 4500 in less than 2 hours.... I'm sure THAT would be plenty fast enough for 99% of airgunners.... and might well enhance the sale of your portable fill station....
Bob
Bob, thanks! Im sending your recommendation along with the others to our owner this morning. I like the idea you have in the first paragraph and after we release the current system, I would like to talk to him about modifying it using the method you describe below. Since we manufacture our own burst disks and hold the patent on it, we might be able to look into doing a 3.5k. Not 100% on what we we need to do to get one made but its something we can definitely look into.
Great feedback on the compressor as well. All valuable information. Thanks again :)
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Thanks, Mark! How many shots are you getting off of the 13ci/3000psi bottle with an output of 1100psi before you need to refill the cylinder?
Hypothetically speaking, if someone came out with a cylinder that is similar in width to the 13ci/3000psi bottle or maybe slightly larger in diameter but also longer, would it be beneficial to you? We're wondering if a slightly longer or larger aluminum bottle might be better or if there are any size/length restrictions which force you to use a smaller bottle.
I have a QB79 with one of the Ninja 13 ci tanks reg. ~850. The tank must be less than 2 inches to work without a adapter.
I fill to 2500 psi and refill at 1000 psi and get over 50 shots.
I am putting another one together (QB78) and am probably going to convert it from 12 gram carts. to HPA at 1100 psi so please don't increase the tank diameter.
I do not need larger capacity although I am sure some do. In fact if I could get a ~7 ci with a smaller diameter I probably would.
I am not going to be to far from my scuba tank at any given time. ;)
Thanks for the reply. I just had a meeting with our owner and Sales Manager about your guys' recommendations. I dont think we'll be able to source a smaller cylinder (around 7ci with a 2" or smaller diameter) as the manufacturer we use here in the United States does not have something that small. Being that it would be a very niche item, I dont know if we could justify spending the money to get the minimum quantity ordered to have them try and manufacturer it.
Great recommendation though! Keep em coming guys, we're all ears.
With my 3000psi tank, I fill it to there and take it down to 1300 and get about 65-70 good shots. I'm pleased with the shot count.
Would I want more? I *GUESS* but here's the thing: on the QB79, we're already heavy with a heavy barrel and the cylinder out front. I'd actually rather give up a few shots for a little less weight. I'll reiterate, the size issue is key. A bit less than 2" in diameter is imperative.
I do want to stress that I like the fit and finish on the regulator and cylinder. That 360' spin collar is very neat too. For those of us using your tanks in QB's it's a very useful trick.
While I have your attention, do you know of anyone who's making thin and lightweight (very key) covers for the 13ci cylinders? (camo might be nice).
Mark
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With my 3000psi tank, I fill it to there and take it down to 1300 and get about 65-70 good shots. I'm pleased with the shot count.
Would I want more? I *GUESS* but here's the thing: on the QB79, we're already heavy with a heavy barrel and the cylinder out front. I'd actually rather give up a few shots for a little less weight. I'll reiterate, the size issue is key. A bit less than 2" in diameter is imperative.
I do want to stress that I like the fit and finish on the regulator and cylinder. That 360' spin collar is very neat too. For those of us using your tanks in QB's it's a very useful trick.
While I have your attention, do you know of anyone who's making thin and lightweight (very key) covers for the 13ci cylinders? (camo might be nice).
Mark
Depending on how the air cylinder attaches to the actual gun, I wonder if there is a way to make a fitting that attaches on your gun and allows to place the bottle remotely somewhere. We have a similar setup in paintball where we use an adapter where the bottle normally attaches to the paintball marker, runs a remote line (coiled line or a straight line) to a persons back. The person would be wearing what we refer to as a Remote Pack which is usually a tactical vest looking device or a weight lifting belt device with a pouch on the back that a person would put an air cylinder into. You would then attach the line to the regulator on the bottle sitting on on your back and run the line directly into your gun. Just thinking outloud here....but I wonder if something like that would work
The finish on the airgun regulators will be a gold anodized color. We want to make sure that there is absolutely no confusion when a customer has a gold airgun reg and a black paintball regulator. We're getting them anodized now and I'll post some pictures once we get the bodies back and we fully assemble one :) The 360 Twist Technology feature will only be offered in our Paintball regulators. We use a c-clip and we're not sure how it will hold up at the higher pressures. If there's enough requests, we may look at testing and trying to make it work.
In regards to a thin, lightweight cover for a 13ci, you may want to see if you can use whats called a "Neoprene CO2 Cover". You just need to find one with the appropriate length to fit the 13ci bottle, which is usually about 9 1/8" from the top of the regulator to the bottom of the bottle. Bottle length is 7" without the regulator.
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Thanks, Bob.
M
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Quick Update before I close up shop for the weekend.
1) We took your recommendations on how the PCP Fill station is configured and rearranged where the bleed valve and hoses connect. I'll post some pictures to get your guys' input next week
2) We will make the PCP Fill Station smaller and make it look better, once we determine if the time and money it takes to reprogram our cnc machines will be worth it. Since this is a new industry for us, we still need to test the market before investing a ton of money into re-engineering the products to make them smaller or "sexier" looking
I'll get you guys some more updates next week. Take care and enjoy the weekend :)
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If I had a local filling station for 4500 psi I would buy your product at $300. Trouble is I do not use my gun but maybe once a week and buying a shoebox makes it an over $1000 product. I will stick to a pair of 80 cf scuba tanks, and top off to 3000 psi for my M-Rod with a Hill pump. If I already had a Shoebox I would be pre-ordering. Good luck sounds like you will do good because you are open minded about your solution.
Mike
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If I had a local filling station for 4500 psi I would buy your product at $300. Trouble is I do not use my gun but maybe once a week and buying a shoebox makes it an over $1000 product. I will stick to a pair of 80 cf scuba tanks, and top off to 3000 psi for my M-Rod with a Hill pump. If I already had a Shoebox I would be pre-ordering. Good luck sounds like you will do good because you are open minded about your solution.
Mike
Thanks, Mike. On your 80cf scuba tank, does the valve and regulator on top regulate the 4500psi in the cylinder down to 3000psi or whatever you set the output pressure to?
Reason I ask is that we have a solution you could attach to a large 4500psi rated SCBA bottle that could regulate the 4500psi in the bottle down to your desired output pressure, all the way down to about 500psi. You would use a screw on top to set the output pressure so no matter what gun you have, you will be able to fill it to the recommended pressure coming from that guns manufacturer.
We're trying to come up with and offer an easier method of filling versus relying on a compressor that could take hours to fill a bottle or using a manual pump to top off the cylinders, that would also be comparable in price to what is currently on the market or what you guys are used to using.
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My "non portable" solution is to use a pair of 80 cf Alum 3000 psi tanks. Both serviced to 3000 psi ($6 ea), no one within 120 miles of me serviced to 4500 psi. I use one tank to fill and the other to top off. I run my M-rod to 2900 psi. When the fill tank gets to 2500 I take it in for a top off fill to 3000 psi and rotate tanks. If needed I top off M-Rod AG with a Hill pump. Your solution is ideal compared to my "non portable". As a member has already stated $1000 buys an AG or two.
Mike
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My "non portable" solution is to use a pair of 80 cf Alum 3000 psi tanks. Both serviced to 3000 psi ($6 ea), no one within 120 miles of me serviced to 4500 psi. I use one tank to fill and the other to top off. I run my M-rod to 2900 psi. When the fill tank gets to 2500 I take it in for a top off fill to 3000 psi and rotate tanks. If needed I top off M-Rod AG with a Hill pump. Your solution is ideal compared to my "non portable". As a member has already stated $1000 buys an AG or two.
Mike
Ok, thanks for the info. I dont think this will be the best solution for everyone out there, especially if you already have something that works for you, but for the guys looking for a new way to fill or dont mind spending the money on a fast and easy way to fill, then this might be a good fit.
We're still working on some other things behind the scenes and will hopefully release some info about them in the next few weeks. Still hashing out some details on them
Thanks again for the feedback and hope everyone had a great weekend.
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I just got notification that a local 4000 psi fill is possible if the tank is Hydro and VIP inspected. Would this apply to you product.
Mike
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Rob you may already know this but just in case you don't, most pcp shooters do not completely fill their rifles and shoot them until empty. This is to avoid POI shift since the rifles hit the bulls eye best in pressure sweet spots. In my case I can fill my disco to 3k psi if I want to but it's accurate sweet spot is 1,400-1,000psi which is 2 mags/20 shots worth. I don't know how many refills I could get out of that tank starting from 1,000 and topping off at 1,400, maybe you can tell me, but I know it would be a lot more than 6 refills.
The typical disco sweet spot is around 1,800-1,200psi, and the typical mrod sweet spot if I remember right is around 2,200-1,700psi.
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I just got notification that a local 4000 psi fill is possible if the tank is Hydro and VIP inspected. Would this apply to you product.
Mike
Yes. Every bottle we sell would be in compliance.
All of our bottles come with DOT and TC certifications, meaning they can be used in any country that accepts those. DOT is for the U.S. and TC is for Canada. Many other countries accept these certifications as well but some countries are different (ie: Australia has its on third party certification process and countries that are part of the European Union require a PI certification). All of our new bottles are in hydro and come with a total lifespan of 15 years. Every 5 years, the bottle does need to be hydro tested to ensure the expansion rate of the cylinder does not exceed a set point. The hydro tests and visual inspections are all services that we provide since we are also a certified Hydro Test Facility.
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Rob you may already know this but just in case you don't, most pcp shooters do not completely fill their rifles and shoot them until empty. This is to avoid POI shift since the rifles hit the bulls eye best in pressure sweet spots. In my case I can fill my disco to 3k psi if I want to but it's accurate sweet spot is 1,400-1,000psi which is 2 mags/20 shots worth. I don't know how many refills I could get out of that tank starting from 1,000 and topping off at 1,400, maybe you can tell me, but I know it would be a lot more than 6 refills.
The typical disco sweet spot is around 1,800-1,200psi, and the typical mrod sweet spot if I remember right is around 2,200-1,700psi.
Hey Sqrl Klr, thanks for the info. We understand that shooters will never drain their air cylinders on the guns to empty so with our 90ci/4500psi bottle solution, on a Benjamin Marauder and per the calculator supplied by rsterne (mod on gta), you should be able to get roughly 6 full fills, once you hit the pressure Benjamin recommends you refill at to maintain a consistent velocity. I'll see if I can find the link and post it to you so you can calculate how many fills you should be able to get with our system and your particular air cylinder.
Fill Calculator Link: http://www.calc.sikes.us/2/index.php (http://www.calc.sikes.us/2/index.php)
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Depending on how the air cylinder attaches to the actual gun, I wonder if there is a way to make a fitting that attaches on your gun and allows to place the bottle remotely somewhere. We have a similar setup in paintball where we use an adapter where the bottle normally attaches to the paintball marker, runs a remote line (coiled line or a straight line) to a persons back. The person would be wearing what we refer to as a Remote Pack which is usually a tactical vest looking device or a weight lifting belt device with a pouch on the back that a person would put an air cylinder into. You would then attach the line to the regulator on the bottle sitting on on your back and run the line directly into your gun. Just thinking outloud here....but I wonder if something like that would work
I'm coming into this discussion rather late because I just started researching HPA conversions. I'm going to be buying a QB79 for my father, and I'll be converting it. A LOT of people seem to turn to your 13 ci bottles for quick-and-easy conversion (and I'm interested in the 1100 psi reg, as that's safe with the stock rifle), so I'll also state that any small(er) bottles you produce will always have buyers in the airgun community if the OD of the bottle is less than 2"--though a bottle that's too long will be a problem, too.
This leads into my response to your quoted reply: My father (and eventually me, to be honest; after doing all this research, I _have_ to buy my own QB79 and convert it) will be using this rifle to hunt. Based on how I and my father hunt, a tethered bottle would be ungainly and not very practical for field use with a rifle. I can definitely see a tethered option being used with a pistol, though. Much like paintball, the way the gun is held while moving and firing determines what can hang off of it without getting in the way. For us, it would be based on stalking, going to and from prone, etc. You can find a lot of shooters that tether tanks for bench shooting, though.
Just my $0.02... and thanks for stopping by and bouncing ideas back and forth! The folks on this forum are the repository of more info than you could ever hope to use, so definitely don't be shy, Rob...
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OK. Sign me up. Send me a message with the details on how to order.
Mike
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Depending on how the air cylinder attaches to the actual gun, I wonder if there is a way to make a fitting that attaches on your gun and allows to place the bottle remotely somewhere. We have a similar setup in paintball where we use an adapter where the bottle normally attaches to the paintball marker, runs a remote line (coiled line or a straight line) to a persons back. The person would be wearing what we refer to as a Remote Pack which is usually a tactical vest looking device or a weight lifting belt device with a pouch on the back that a person would put an air cylinder into. You would then attach the line to the regulator on the bottle sitting on on your back and run the line directly into your gun. Just thinking outloud here....but I wonder if something like that would work
I'm coming into this discussion rather late because I just started researching HPA conversions. I'm going to be buying a QB79 for my father, and I'll be converting it. A LOT of people seem to turn to your 13 ci bottles for quick-and-easy conversion (and I'm interested in the 1100 psi reg, as that's safe with the stock rifle), so I'll also state that any small(er) bottles you produce will always have buyers in the airgun community if the OD of the bottle is less than 2"--though a bottle that's too long will be a problem, too.
This leads into my response to your quoted reply: My father (and eventually me, to be honest; after doing all this research, I _have_ to buy my own QB79 and convert it) will be using this rifle to hunt. Based on how I and my father hunt, a tethered bottle would be ungainly and not very practical for field use with a rifle. I can definitely see a tethered option being used with a pistol, though. Much like paintball, the way the gun is held while moving and firing determines what can hang off of it without getting in the way. For us, it would be based on stalking, going to and from prone, etc. You can find a lot of shooters that tether tanks for bench shooting, though.
Just my $0.02... and thanks for stopping by and bouncing ideas back and forth! The folks on this forum are the repository of more info than you could ever hope to use, so definitely don't be shy, Rob...
Hi Drew. Thanks for your input! I couldnt see people wanting to tether a line directly to a bottle either, especially when aim is very important. The added weight of having to keep a line attached at all times would just not be practical for a majority of you guys; unless (like you mentioned), you're bench shooting.
The option we give you will not need to be attached to your gun at all times. Its just a device that you can attach whenever you need to refill the air cylinder on your gun. Being that the system only weighs about 5lbs or so, its very portable. Put it in a bag or backpack, carry it to the desired location, shoot until you need to refill, pull out the system, attach it to the cylinder, fill the air cylinder on your gun, and shoot some more. Once its filled, you can put the system back in your bag or backpack until youre ready to use it again.
This is not the same type of setup as a Remote System in paintball, which is when we put a bottle in a small pouch on the small of our back and run an air line from the regulator directly into the paintball marker (gun) at all times. Thanks and please let us know if you have any other input. We would love to hear!
Will any of you guys be at the Flag City Toys That Shoot show in Findlay, OH on Saturday, April 13th, 2013? Our company is inquiring about going to the event and if we do attend, it would be great to meet some of you guys in person.
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OK. Sign me up. Send me a message with the details on how to order.
Mike
The only thing we're waiting on right now is for our manual to be completed. Once its finished, we can release the product. Sorry to tease you guys with the pictures and all of this information but before we invest anymore resources to this project, we wanted to get your guys' input. So far, input and feedback has been very positive so we're moving forward. Hoping to have a manual in the next few weeks.
We're getting ready to test something else in the next few days. If it works, i'll get you guys some information about it. Another filling solution from Ninja :)
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I'm interested in a 2000 dollars 4500psi pump .
Do u do what we called " boast pump" ?
Those that people used to boast a half use 4500psi tank from a full 3000psi tank.
Please send more info about ur company n products to me.
My e mail is simonwg905@yahoo.com.hk
I am in air gun trade.
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The option we give you will not need to be attached to your gun at all times. Its just a device that you can attach whenever you need to refill the air cylinder on your gun. Being that the system only weighs about 5lbs or so, its very portable. Put it in a bag or backpack, carry it to the desired location, shoot until you need to refill, pull out the system, attach it to the cylinder, fill the air cylinder on your gun, and shoot some more. Once its filled, you can put the system back in your bag or backpack until youre ready to use it again.
Ah, sorry, I didn't understand that's what you were aiming for. So it would be an off-the-shelf portable filling station, i.e. a mini-SCUBA or -SCBA solution for use in the field? For hunting, I would definitely be interested in something like that, especially if it was ruggedized in such a way that I wouldn't have to worry about knocking gauges and fill nipples, etc. (especially if I could refill the tank with a manual pump, back at the truck or camp) I'm guessing this can already be done with available tanks and hardware, but an off-the-shelf solution that's competitively priced with a DIY portable-fill tank would be interesting.
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OK. Sign me up. Send me a message with the details on how to order.
Mike
The only thing we're waiting on right now is for our manual to be completed. Once its finished, we can release the product. Sorry to tease you guys with the pictures and all of this information but before we invest anymore resources to this project, we wanted to get your guys' input. So far, input and feedback has been very positive so we're moving forward. Hoping to have a manual in the next few weeks.
We're getting ready to test something else in the next few days. If it works, i'll get you guys some information about it. Another filling solution from Ninja :)
I am patient, no worries... I have spent enough in the last 2 weeks, a small break will be great!!
Mike
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I'm interested in a 2000 dollars 4500psi pump .
Do u do what we called " boast pump" ?
Those that people used to boast a half use 4500psi tank from a full 3000psi tank.
Please send more info about ur company n products to me.
My e mail is simonwg905@yahoo.com.hk
I am in air gun trade.
Thank you for your post. I will send you an email in a few minutes.
Ah, sorry, I didn't understand that's what you were aiming for. So it would be an off-the-shelf portable filling station, i.e. a mini-SCUBA or -SCBA solution for use in the field? For hunting, I would definitely be interested in something like that, especially if it was ruggedized in such a way that I wouldn't have to worry about knocking gauges and fill nipples, etc. (especially if I could refill the tank with a manual pump, back at the truck or camp) I'm guessing this can already be done with available tanks and hardware, but an off-the-shelf solution that's competitively priced with a DIY portable-fill tank would be interesting.
Yes, sir! off-the-shelf, lightweight, portable, fast filling station for field or home use. The products we manufacture are very ruggedized. In paintball, players will dive headfirst, feet first, through windows and doors, and the bottles and regulators take a beating. They hold up very well in our sport and since you guys aren't diving, sliding, etc, I dont think you'll have any issues with our products holding up. Also, our products come with a 1 year warranty and we fully support any person that purchases one of our products, regardless of where they are located (we sell internationally).
If you have a pump capable of 4500psi fills, you can definitely use that to fill that 90ci/4500psi small carbon fiber bottle. Ideal solution would probably be to get the cylinder filled at a local paintball store/field or dive center capable of 4500psi fills. They usually cost about $5-$7 to fill a 90ci/4500psi bottle at those locations and with the calculations on a Marauder, you should be able to get roughly 6 fills.
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Mods - please move this to the right section on this forum or please let me know where I should post this if this is the wrong section for this type of post.
UPDATED - includes picture. Finally found out how to post one up on here :D
Hi everyone. My name's Rob and I work for a company called Ninja Paintball, a division of Pressure Specialist Inc located outside of Chicago, IL. We are a machine shop that specializes in high pressure air products, mainly for the paintball industry. We have been manufacturing products for several manufacturers in the AirGun industry over the last few years and have seen a need for a product that would give you guys a mobile, fast, safe, and easy way to fill the air cylinders on your rifles and pistols.
Our company manufacturers a 90cubic inch bottle that is rated to hold 4500psi. We would then install a regulator at the top of the bottle that would regulate the 4500psi inside the bottle down to say 3000psi or whatever output pressure you choose (ranging from 250psi on the low end all the way up to 3000psi currently). You would then screw the regulator (attached to the bottle) into what we call our PCP Fill Station. The PCP Fill Station device has a Universal Fill Adapter with an on/off know to allow the air to flow out of the bottle and regulator. The air would travel into the Universal Fill Adapter, down a steel braided line and then into our fill device. The fill device has a vent knob on the side to vent the air after you fill your cylinder and it also has a Quick Disconnect fitting you can use to attach the fitting on your cylinder or whatever fill adapter you need to make to have the device work with your fitting on your particular air cylinder.
Here's the total package including PCP Fill Station and 90ci/4500psi bottle.
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af33/Pharcyide/PCPFillSolution_zpsf85d3ed0.jpg)
We are on the verge of releasing the products and are waiting on the manuals to be finalized. For just the PCP Fill Station, you are looking at a MSRP of $76.95. The 90ci/4500psi bottle with custom output regulator (you designate the output pressure) should MSRP at $224.95.
The PCP Fill Station setup weights roughly 1 lb
The 90ci/4500psi Bottle with Regulator weighs roughly 3lbs 8oz.
That means you would have a mobile filling solution, capable of filling at a minimum of 2 full fills, that would weigh under 5 lbs.
We tested the system with a Benjamin Marauder Air Cylinder and here are our results:
We were able to get (2) full fills in the Benjamin Marauder Air Cylinder off of our 90ci/4500psi bottle and regulator. What we did was empty the cylinder of all pressure. Then filled the cylinder to the recommended pressure. We then bled all of the air out of the cylinder, bring the pressure down to 0 again. We then filled the cylinder all the way up to the recommended pressure again. We bled the air a third time and on the third fill, we were able to get roughly 600psi in the cylinder. We understand that you will fill the cylinders before it reaches zero but hopefully this data will help you determine how many fills you may be able to achieve at the pressure you refill at and the size of your cylinder.
All of our fittings, hoses, and products are properly rated for this application. We are part of the ASTM sub-committee for paintball so we make sure to follow the safety recommendations which means our regulator will include (2) safety burst disks which we hold the patent on.
If anyone has any specific questions, please post in here. I will do my best to keep an eye on this thread. Again, it will be a few weeks or so before we're able to start selling these since we're waiting on our manual to be finalized but we're close. I just wanted to post this to see what your guys' thoughts are on this solution. Any feedback or recommendations you guys have would be greatly appreciated.
Put me down for fill station and bottle, hope the mauals are ready SOON. Looks exactly like what I need. I live just south of Joliet, work in Addison, CNC mill operator aerospace parts, if you were closer I'd ask about job oppurtunities. Please PM or email me when these are a done deal.
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Put me down for fill station and bottle, hope the mauals are ready SOON. Looks exactly like what I need. I live just south of Joliet, work in Addison, CNC mill operator aerospace parts, if you were closer I'd ask about job oppurtunities. Please PM or email me when these are a done deal.
Hey cherokeesteve. Knowing that you live near the Joliet area, you can get 4500psi fills from CPX Sports, 7 Paintball, Fox Paintball, and a few others in your area. As soon as we're ready, we'll let you guys know where you can purchase the systems. Thanks and please let me know if you have any questions.
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Hey ninga, what is the closest fill you know of to Destin Fl?
Mike
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Hey ninga, what is the closest fill you know of to Destin Fl?
Mike
Hey Mike. Try this link out: http://www.ninjapaintball.com/dealers/ (http://www.ninjapaintball.com/dealers/)
Most of our paintball customers have the ability to do 4500psi fills but I always recommend that you call them to verify before making the drive.
I know that The Coliseum Paintball in Pace, FL can do 4500psi fills and I have another customer Hwy 77 Paintball in Southport but Im not sure if she can do 4500psi fills.
MIKE! I just called Hurlburt AFB, one of my other customers in your area. They are 15 minutes from Destin, can fill to 4500psi, and since the field is on base property but not located within the gates, you dont need a sponsor or have to show any form of id to get a 4500psi fill from them :)
Here is another link to find paintball businesses. A lot of these links are outdated so before anyone drives to one of these locations to get a fill, I highly recommend calling to verify they are still in business.
http://www.pbnation.com/fieldshow.php (http://www.pbnation.com/fieldshow.php)
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Hey cherokeesteve. Knowing that you live near the Joliet area, you can get 4500psi fills from CPX Sports, 7 Paintball, Fox Paintball, and a few others in your area. As soon as we're ready, we'll let you guys know where you can purchase the systems. Thanks and please let me know if you have any questions.
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Paint balled many a time at CPX.Not too far from me.
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We just debuted the product at paintball largest vendor and business owner tradeshow called Paintball Extravaganza. It is amazing how many stores and fields have been getting calls regarding filling larger 4500psi SCBA and smaller 3000psi Scuba cylinders. Once we let our customer base know about this solution, they said they are going to start pushing filling the cylinders for you guys and advertising it. A majority have also stated that the number of calls and people stopping in for fills has increased quite a bit of the last 1-2 years. Here is a video of our Sales Manager talking about the product at the show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zBqYhFSigbM#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zBqYhFSigbM#ws)
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Hey Rob!.... I see you've reconfigured the fill station as per the suggestions on this Forum.... Congratulations on listening to your customers and the best of luck in selling the new product.... If I didn't have one already (that I made up a few years ago using a Ninja tank and reg.) I'd definitely be buying one.... It's just the ticket for topping up to 3000 psi in the field.... Now, might I suggest a 2000 psi version for all the Disco owners out there.... or maybe instructions on how to reduce the setpoint to that level by removing shims like you do with your 850 psi coil spring regulators....
Bob
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^ THIS! +1
(Especially if it can be fine-tuned... some PCP owners have found that very exact fills will give their sweet spots: 2.7K, 2.2K, etc...)
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Hey Rob!.... I see you've reconfigured the fill station as per the suggestions on this Forum.... Congratulations on listening to your customers and the best of luck in selling the new product.... If I didn't have one already (that I made up a few years ago using a Ninja tank and reg.) I'd definitely be buying one.... It's just the ticket for topping up to 3000 psi in the field.... Now, might I suggest a 2000 psi version for all the Disco owners out there.... or maybe instructions on how to reduce the setpoint to that level by removing shims like you do with your 850 psi coil spring regulators....
Bob
To Bob and everyone else that has chimed in on this thread, THANK YOU! I cant tell you how much we appreciate everyones input on helping us make a better product. Also, wait until you see what we have in store for the 2nd version. We're already working with our engineers and coming up with new features on the bleed valve such as a gauge to measure your output pressure as well as a MUCH SMALLER bleed valve system. These features will not be released for about a year or so but please keep in mind we are continuously looking for ways to improve our products.
In regards to other output pressures, we can make anything you like up to 3000psi :) If your gun's cylinder requires 2000psi, we have the ability to make it and the regulators can be ordered that way. We will make any custom output regulator, up to 3000psi, but it must be ordered in increments of 1200, 1400, 1600, 1800, 2000, etc. It could come with a swing of about 50-100 psi in either direction but we will get as close as possible to your desired output.
What I think would be ideal is an externally adjustable regulator that can be adjusted from about 1200psi up to 3000psi. This is something i'm pushing for but it is a long way out before we can devote the time and money in a project like that.
EDIT - Pyramyd Air will be accepting preorders on this system starting next week. They can be reached at 888-262-4867 for pricing or product questions. Please do not contact them until next Monday or Tuesday.
^ THIS! +1
(Especially if it can be fine-tuned... some PCP owners have found that very exact fills will give their sweet spots: 2.7K, 2.2K, etc...)
You would have to watch the gauge on your airgun if you want to only fill up to say 2.2k or 2.7k. The regulator outputs at 3000psi but you'll need a way to read how much pressure your putting into the cylinder as you're filling.
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Are these only going to be available on the 90ci bottles?
I also went to lloyd sikes calculator site and from what he had at the bottom of the page 90ci = 16.2 cf
I then did a calculation of a 4500psi bottle then fill the airgun to 2900psi and refill at 2000 psi and it came out to 11 refils.
if those calculations are correct I would also like to see a 68ci bottle, which would give almost 9 refils and be somewhat lighter to carry.
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Can this be ordered unassembled. so we can ship it by plane?
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The valve unscrews by hand from the top of the regulator, and I'm guessing that is the way it would be packed and shipped....
Bob
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Are these only going to be available on the 90ci bottles?
I also went to lloyd sikes calculator site and from what he had at the bottom of the page 90ci = 16.2 cf
I then did a calculation of a 4500psi bottle then fill the airgun to 2900psi and refill at 2000 psi and it came out to 11 refils.
if those calculations are correct I would also like to see a 68ci bottle, which would give almost 9 refils and be somewhat lighter to carry.
Hi Leadpusher. They can be ordered on any Ninja bottle we offer. Here are the different sizes available:
Aluminum Bottles only rated to hold a max pressure of 3000psi
13ci/3000psi
35ci/3000psi
48ci/3000psi
62ci/3000psi
Carbon fiber bottles rated to hold a max pressure of 4500psi
45ci/4500psi
50ci/4500psi
68ci/4500psi
77ci/4500psi
90ci/4500psi
We will allow you to purchase any of these different size cylinders with your choice of output pressure on the regulator going all the way up to 3000psi. Regulators must be ordered with pressures in even number increments as stated above.
Guys - If you have a large bulk cylinder that accepts a CGA-677 fitting or even a large SCBA bottle with a valve that accepts a CGA-357, you could hypothetically attach our High Pressure Fill Station ($350 retail) and attach it to the larger bottles to act as a regulator for those as well. The High Pressure Fill Station can be regulated between 500psi and 5000psi max.
Can this be ordered unassembled. so we can ship it by plane?
We deal with this in paintball when flying to events. TSA needs to be able to inspect inside of the cylinder before you can fly with it on a plane. To answer your question, yes. We do this in paintball and can do the same for you guys. If you order a system, you can order it with the regulator HAND TIGHTENED only or NOT INSTALLED. It will be easier to unscrew the regulator from the cylinder and when re-installing it back in the bottle, you have to make sure that you have no gap between the bottom of the reg body and the top of the cylinders neck.
The valve unscrews by hand from the top of the regulator, and I'm guessing that is the way it would be packed and shipped....
Bob
When we install a regulator at our factory, we install it with a minimum of 40ft lbs of torque and we also add 1/2 of a measured drop of red loctite to help slow down the removal process, not stop it entirely. We do have a tool I can post pictures of that allows us to easily install and remove regulators by fitting over the top of the regulator like a socket and use the fittings (gauge threads, burst disks, fill nipple) as leverage to loosen the regulator enough to remove it. Let me know if you would like some pictures. You guys are more than welcome to make something based off of our regulator removal tool's design.
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Let me know if you would like some pictures. You guys are more than welcome to make something based off of our regulator removal tool's design.
Please!
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^X2.... and thanks !!!
It is a breath of fresh air to have a manufacturer so willing to mix and match components to supply what we airgunners want.... No more having to "wish" for a particular combination.... Do you sell direct, of do we have to purchase through a dealer, and deal with addditional delays and "I don't think I can get that" because they can't be bothered?....
Bob
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Let me know if you would like some pictures. You guys are more than welcome to make something based off of our regulator removal tool's design.
Please!
Here you go :)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af33/Pharcyide/photobucket-12230-1358274261555.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af33/Pharcyide/photobucket-29117-1358274261035.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af33/Pharcyide/photobucket-19821-1358274260502.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af33/Pharcyide/photobucket-30639-1358274260013.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af33/Pharcyide/photobucket-30262-1358274259524.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af33/Pharcyide/photobucket-19583-1358274259020.jpg)
^X2.... and thanks !!!
It is a breath of fresh air to have a manufacturer so willing to mix and match components to supply what we airgunners want.... No more having to "wish" for a particular combination.... Do you sell direct, of do we have to purchase through a dealer, and deal with addditional delays and "I don't think I can get that" because they can't be bothered?....
Bob
Great question, Bob. We generally don't want to sell direct to people. Its our way of getting end users to support either their local store or the other resellers or internet sites out there. As long as we keep these guys in business, it gives us more choices on places to purchase from and helps grow the industry.
With that being said, we understand that with this being a newer product and not readily available, if someone wants something custom that a reseller is unable to assist you with, we will be able to help you guys direct.
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much appreciated
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Excellent solution, and many thanks, Rob....
BTW, I like the regulator installing/removal tool.... thanks for sharing....
Bob
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Glad to help guys.
I dont remember if i've made this link available but this will have a majority of our paintball fields and stores contact information. Since most of these businesses fill to 4500psi, I thought it might be a handy tool for you guys to use to search for local paintball business in case you buy this solution or have a 4500psi bottle that you would like filled.
As always, we recommend calling the business to make sure they are capable of filling to 4500psi.
http://www.ninjapaintball.com/dealers/ (http://www.ninjapaintball.com/dealers/)
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thank you, excellent, I like the hand tigth solution
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Question for you guys -
1) Will anyone be attending the Flag City Toys That Shoot show in Findlay, OH on April 13th? If so, I'll be attending and would like to get a chance to meet you guys in person. We will be showing the air system, regulator, how to break it down and do maintenance on them, other bottle sizes and colors available, as well as some other items we're working on. Btw, we're working on a microbore hose as well (10,000psi rated working pressure). We have the machines to make the crimp fittings so Im hoping we'll have some time available to run them on the machines in about the next 2 months.
2) Would a compressor system, that could plug into a home dryer socket (3 prong), that could fill one of these 90/4500's in less than 8 minutes or a 3000psi Scuba tank in about 40 minutes, be something you guys would be interested in? It would come with an auto shut off when it reaches 4500psi, electric start, and would cut your fill time down immensely. The system would probably cost about $2500 and be something small and very portable and have very low maintenance. I know this might be out of the price range of some home users but I know some of you guys have your own gun range in the backyard and will invite people to come out to shoot. I was thinking this could be a good fit for airgun clubs, gun ranges, or even stores - places looking to do multiple air fills. Do you guys like the idea of walking into your local airgun store and getting a fill right there on the spot?
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Question for you guys -
1) Will anyone be attending the Flag City Toys That Shoot show in Findlay, OH on April 13th? If so, I'll be attending and would like to get a chance to meet you guys in person. We will be showing the air system, regulator, how to break it down and do maintenance on them, other bottle sizes and colors available, as well as some other items we're working on. Btw, we're working on a microbore hose as well (10,000psi rated working pressure). We have the machines to make the crimp fittings so Im hoping we'll have some time available to run them on the machines in about the next 2 months.
2) Would a compressor system, that could plug into a home dryer socket (3 prong), that could fill one of these 90/4500's in less than 8 minutes or a 3000psi Scuba tank in about 40 minutes, be something you guys would be interested in? It would come with an auto shut off when it reaches 4500psi, electric start, and would cut your fill time down immensely. The system would probably cost about $2500 and be something small and very portable and have very low maintenance. I know this might be out of the price range of some home users but I know some of you guys have your own gun range in the backyard and will invite people to come out to shoot. I was thinking this could be a good fit for airgun clubs, gun ranges, or even stores - places looking to do multiple air fills. Do you guys like the idea of walking into your local airgun store and getting a fill right there on the spot?
Hey Rob,
I wanted to chime in too and add to the choir of folks thanking you for participating in the sport with the people of the sport. As a business owner, seeing this level of involvement gives me a very good feeling about your enterprise, and I now know where I can safely spend my $.
I personally can't attend this show, but I am curious if you will attend anything in the Carolina's? I have been a powder gun guy all my life, and have been bitten by this air gun bug pretty hard over the past two months. Zero guns to 4, 2 being PCP guns. So your solutions are very attractive to me. Unfortunately I am still on the steep upward slope of the learning curve so I don't know how a 90 ci bottle translates to real world fill ups for my Marauder or Discovery. I know Crosman has a fill up calculator, but have you guys tested with these guns and have any data on the number of real world fill ups?
Also, I really like the idea of the pump, but that's out of my price range, for now. Any chance you will look at competing with the Shoebox solution? Honestly, if you had this bottle setup and a small (albeit slow) pump for $1000 total, that would *really* be the cats meow!
Again, thanks. Glad to see you guys in here!
Nate
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Rob, I think the number of people in the market for a compressor that fast (120 CF/hr.) but that expensive ($2500) will be few.... I'm sure I spend more than that every year on my hobby, and I live a 3 hour round trip from the nearest air fill, but I wouldn't buy one at $2500.... If I didn't already have one of the original models (4 CF/hr.) I might consider the new Freedom 8 ShoeBox, but at $1100, even that is a stretch for me.... Funny, but if it was under $1000 it would be a no-brainer.... That's my personal opinion....
Having said that, I see a market for a compressor in between in performance, but priced UNDER $1500 including shipping within North America.... Realistically, nobody ever lets their air tank get below about 2000 psi if they have a compressor available (and then only if they shoot a Disco), most would top it up at just under 3000 psi, especially if they had a 4500 psi tank.... When you look at fill times, you need to think of a 90 CI 4500 psi tank as only needing about 5 CF to top it up.... and an 80 CF 3000 psi SCUBA tank as needing about 27 CF (from 2000) or 8 CF (from 2700).... An 88 CF 4500 psi SCBA tank would take 29 CF to top it up from 3000 psi.... Looking at the larger tanks as needing about 30 CF (maximum) to top them up, a Freedom 8 will do that in under 4 hours.... Your proposed compressor would do it in under 15 minutes.... Wouldn't something that took about an hour make sense?.... even 2 hours (15 CF/hr.)?.... At 15 CF/hr. we could top up a 90 CI tank in 20 minutes....
I would personally prefer something that ran on 110V instead of 220V, but I realize that at some point there just aren't enough watts available to do the job.... Have you looked into what is the highest rate you can achieve with a compressor that will run on a standard 15A-110V circuit breaker?.... Start with the available power and work backwards from there would be my suggestion....
Bob
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^ This
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Question for you guys -
1) Will anyone be attending the Flag City Toys That Shoot show in Findlay, OH on April 13th? If so, I'll be attending and would like to get a chance to meet you guys in person. We will be showing the air system, regulator, how to break it down and do maintenance on them, other bottle sizes and colors available, as well as some other items we're working on. Btw, we're working on a microbore hose as well (10,000psi rated working pressure). We have the machines to make the crimp fittings so Im hoping we'll have some time available to run them on the machines in about the next 2 months.
2) Would a compressor system, that could plug into a home dryer socket (3 prong), that could fill one of these 90/4500's in less than 8 minutes or a 3000psi Scuba tank in about 40 minutes, be something you guys would be interested in? It would come with an auto shut off when it reaches 4500psi, electric start, and would cut your fill time down immensely. The system would probably cost about $2500 and be something small and very portable and have very low maintenance. I know this might be out of the price range of some home users but I know some of you guys have your own gun range in the backyard and will invite people to come out to shoot. I was thinking this could be a good fit for airgun clubs, gun ranges, or even stores - places looking to do multiple air fills. Do you guys like the idea of walking into your local airgun store and getting a fill right there on the spot?
Hey Rob,
I wanted to chime in too and add to the choir of folks thanking you for participating in the sport with the people of the sport. As a business owner, seeing this level of involvement gives me a very good feeling about your enterprise, and I now know where I can safely spend my $.
I personally can't attend this show, but I am curious if you will attend anything in the Carolina's? I have been a powder gun guy all my life, and have been bitten by this air gun bug pretty hard over the past two months. Zero guns to 4, 2 being PCP guns. So your solutions are very attractive to me. Unfortunately I am still on the steep upward slope of the learning curve so I don't know how a 90 ci bottle translates to real world fill ups for my Marauder or Discovery. I know Crosman has a fill up calculator, but have you guys tested with these guns and have any data on the number of real world fill ups?
Also, I really like the idea of the pump, but that's out of my price range, for now. Any chance you will look at competing with the Shoebox solution? Honestly, if you had this bottle setup and a small (albeit slow) pump for $1000 total, that would *really* be the cats meow!
Again, thanks. Glad to see you guys in here!
Nate
Hi Nate,
Thanks for stopping by. Im not sure if I'll be able to make it to any other shows but its a possibility. We'll have to see how things go out in Findlay first.
No, we're not looking to compete with Tom's solution. His is for the home user whereas ours is geared more towards a gun store that might be looking at starting to offer fills in their store, gun ranges, and gun clubs. The shoebox seems to work good, albeit a little slow, but its priced low enough to make it a viable but a bit expensive solution. I might end up bringing a compressor with to see what people think. Its small and very low maintenance. I'll see what we can do about bringing one out there and see if we can get some pictures posted after the show.
Rob, I think the number of people in the market for a compressor that fast (120 CF/hr.) but that expensive ($2500) will be few.... I'm sure I spend more than that every year on my hobby, and I live a 3 hour round trip from the nearest air fill, but I wouldn't buy one at $2500.... If I didn't already have one of the original models (4 CF/hr.) I might consider the new Freedom 8 ShoeBox, but at $1100, even that is a stretch for me.... Funny, but if it was under $1000 it would be a no-brainer.... That's my personal opinion....
Having said that, I see a market for a compressor in between in performance, but priced UNDER $1500 including shipping within North America.... Realistically, nobody ever lets their air tank get below about 2000 psi if they have a compressor available (and then only if they shoot a Disco), most would top it up at just under 3000 psi, especially if they had a 4500 psi tank.... When you look at fill times, you need to think of a 90 CI 4500 psi tank as only needing about 5 CF to top it up.... and an 80 CF 3000 psi SCUBA tank as needing about 27 CF (from 2000) or 8 CF (from 2700).... An 88 CF 4500 psi SCBA tank would take 29 CF to top it up from 3000 psi.... Looking at the larger tanks as needing about 30 CF (maximum) to top them up, a Freedom 8 will do that in under 4 hours.... Your proposed compressor would do it in under 15 minutes.... Wouldn't something that took about an hour make sense?.... even 2 hours (15 CF/hr.)?.... At 15 CF/hr. we could top up a 90 CI tank in 20 minutes....
I would personally prefer something that ran on 110V instead of 220V, but I realize that at some point there just aren't enough watts available to do the job.... Have you looked into what is the highest rate you can achieve with a compressor that will run on a standard 15A-110V circuit breaker?.... Start with the available power and work backwards from there would be my suggestion....
Bob
Very difficult to do at that price point. We have yet to find a supplier anywhere in the world that can get us a compressor that costs low enough for us to import, pay the duties/taxes on, and resell. If we manufactured the compressor itself, we might be able to get down that low but its not something we'll ever get into manufacturing. I think at the $1500 price range, its wishful thinking at this time. I'll keep you guys updated if we do come across anything though. Thanks again, Bob. Hope you're having a great weekend.
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the pre order page for these setups is now up at pyramid. $299 seems quite complete.
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the pre order page for these setups is now up at pyramid. $299 seems quite complete.
Good catch :) Yes, sir. The pre-order page is up and they will receive their first shipment next week. $299.99 includes the cylinder, regulator, and the PCP Fill Station
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I should have waited, I paid that for my 90 CI tank and reg only, and it was set for 2500.... this before Ninja made this new setup....
Bob
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I should have waited
Bob
Well, If misery loves company, I could've saved by waiting also. Picked up a 90ci 4500psi Ninja tank off of Amazon, but it had the standard paint ball regulator. Lucky enough to find a 3000psi output regulator and made up my own removal/install tool with a 1 1/16 deep socket I hadn't used in quite some time. I used a 1/2 inch carbide endmill to cut three of the slots, and a 3/4 inch carbide endmill to cut the clearance slot for the pressure dial. Big thanks to Rob from Ninja for posting the pics of the teflon block tool that they use. I just used what I had laying around.
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Fits perfectly over and tightens nicely to the recommended 40 ft/lbs. Also, anyone in the south suburbs of Chicago, big thanks to 7 Paintball in Lockport, complete tank fill for 3 bucks!
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This tank really needs the "externally adjustable regulator" to allow fills from 2000-3300psi, and even higher with some of the new guns coming out. The 2900psi-only fill limits it's usefulness. Even guns like the Marauder can utilize different fill pressures depending on the power level. Fill pressure is part of a "tune" for a PCP airgun.
I wonder if Pyramyd will allow the use of coupons when the tank is in stock. I got 12% off on my Benjamin 90ci tank for a $365 shipped total.
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Fits perfectly over and tightens nicely to the recommended 40 ft/lbs. Also, anyone in the south suburbs of Chicago, big thanks to 7 Paintball in Lockport, complete tank fill for 3 bucks!
Very cool! We tend to stay away from using anything metal to remove a regulator so we dont mark up the regulators when installing/removing them but you did a heckuva job on this metal version. Very nice!
I wish our insurance company would let us manufacture and sell this device. I can't tell you how many times we get calls from people asking us to sell ours. Unfortunately, we can't do to liability reasons.
I'll have to give John and the boys at 7 Paintball a call to thank them for taking care of you at a great price! $3 a fill?! Can't go wrong with that :)
Pursang - I've brought this up to our owner and asked him how difficult it would be to come out with something externally adjusted at these pressures. We have made externally adjustable regulators in the past but they were mostly two-stage regulators. We used to make an inline, externally adjustable reg but it was only used to handle pressures up to 800psi. I have a feeling if we played around with the design a bit and could find some bellevilles that will stay consistent in output over the course of altering pressures, it would be the "perfect" solution. I'll keep on our guys about this project.
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Very cool! We tend to stay away from using anything metal to remove a regulator so we dont mark up the regulators when installing/removing them but you did a heckuva job on this metal version. Very nice!
I wish our insurance company would let us manufacture and sell this device. I can't tell you how many times we get calls from people asking us to sell ours.
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I just wrapped up the contact points with masking tape. No marks, easily removed.
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Why not an on-off valve w/ bleeder like most of us already use? That would also render it unusable for paintball.
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Why not an on-off valve w/ bleeder like most of us already use? That would also render it unusable for paintball.
Hi Pursang. We have already started looking at several different designs on the next version of our on/off. I cant guarantee anything as we're looking at several designs but that is a feature we might be looking to build into the next version of this product.
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I'm not sure, but I think Pursang is referring to a non-regulated fill station design.... which would be like filling from a SCUBA/SCBA tank.... There is some merit to that approach, but also the danger of overfilling the gun when you "slip".... For safety, the best way to approach any non-regulated fill system is to have a very high quality needle valve (which is then easily damaged by overtightening).... OR (my choice) to use a restricting orifice immediately downstream of the on-off valve and before the output pressure gauge (a nice 1.5" liquid filled 100 psi increments would be nice), bleed valve, fill hose, Foster fitting and gun.... That orifice resticts the fill rate, and if the volume between it and the on-off valve is kept very small, allows for very precise, safe, and slow filling of a tank or gun.... It could be argued that it is actually safer than a regulator, as there are fewer parts to fail.... Cheaper, too !!!
Bob
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I'm not sure, but I think Pursang is referring to a non-regulated fill station design.... which would be like filling from a SCUBA/SCBA tank.... There is some merit to that approach, but also the danger of overfilling the gun when you "slip".... For safety, the best way to approach any non-regulated fill system is to have a very high quality needle valve (which is then easily damaged by overtightening).... OR (my choice) to use a restricting orifice immediately downstream of the on-off valve and before the output pressure gauge (a nice 1.5" liquid filled 100 psi increments would be nice), bleed valve, fill hose, Foster fitting and gun.... That orifice resticts the fill rate, and if the volume between it and the on-off valve is kept very small, allows for very precise, safe, and slow filling of a tank or gun.... It could be argued that it is actually safer than a regulator, as there are fewer parts to fail.... Cheaper, too !!!
Bob
We could come out with an unregulated version but then we would have something that is already on the market and offered by several companies. Do you guys prefer to have it unregulated or regulated? We assumed regulated would be the way to go to prevent someone from overfilling but if you guys are more comfortable using a non-regulated version, I can talk to our owner and see what we can do :)
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I guess I opened a can of worms, didn't I ? .... *LOL*
Regulated is nice, you set it up for your gun, crack the valve and fill it.... In theory, no guesswork, and goof-proof, unless the regulator bypasses... However, if you have guns with different fill pressures, you need different regulator settings (and a way to test that).... or a high enough one for the maximum you use and then try and stop sooner on the lower pressure guns.... That's not a bad solution I guess.... providing the valve gives you enough control to do that.... In my experience, the style valve that depresses the pin valve in the top of the regulator isn't controllable enough for that.... they are too hard to shut off, and they are really just ON or OFF....
Unregulated is simple, cheap, and reliable, but it DOES require the user to exercise care.... The shooter becomes the "regulator".... IMO, to make it as safe as possible, a restrictor as I mentioned above, is the answer.... Interestingly, it is NOT found in any of the commonly available fill stations (AFAIK).... The simple one that fits on a SCUBA tank relies on careful control of the valve on the tank to fill your gun without overfilling.... Fortunately, they are a pretty good, easily controlled valve.... Even so, if you are filling a small gun (like a short tubed carbine) it's easy to "slip" and overfill.... The big advantage, as I see it, is that you can fill ANY gun to any pressure right up to 4500 psi (from your 90 CI tank).... That would even allow topping up a high pressure big bore in the field (once or twice!)....
The minimum requirement for an unregulated system, IMO, is the following:
a male Foster with check-valve to fill the tank
a cheap 1" 5K-6K gauge to show tank pressure
an easy to operate and reliable valve for filling your gun
a restricting orifice immediately downstream of that valve - all else downstream of this
a good quality (1.5" liquid filled?), 5000 psi gauge with 100 psi increments to monitor output pressure
a bleed valve
a short braided hose - 12" OK
a female Foster fitting on the hose
This could all be built into a package not much larger than a regulator that screws directly into the top of a carbon fibre 4500 psi (or aluminum 3000 psi) tank.... Then you could supply either an unregulated or regulated system using most of the same parts....
I can't tell you which would be the most popular.... If you wish, Rob, you could set up a poll on the Forum and let people vote.... I carry a 48 CI / 3000 psi tank regulated to 2000 psi when hunting with my Disco based Carbine and it has tons of air for a week of hunting.... I love it for the simplicity and ease of use.... so I can certainly see the advantage to a regulated system.... On the other hand, I have a 90 CI / 4500 psi tank regulated to (currently) 2500 psi (soon to be 3000), but I can't use in on my Disco because the valve is not controllable enough to stop at 2000 psi.... On the other hand, once I bump it up to 3000, it will be perfect for all my other current PCPs.... So, I cover my needs with one of each.... On the other hand, I'm thinking of a big bore that needs 3500 psi.... so the problem will start all over again.... A reliable, 90 CI / 4500 psi tank with an unregulated but safely controlled output would do everything I want....
See the problem?....
Bob
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Our engineer thinks that trying to depress the activating pin on the top of our regulator might be tough to press down with a full 4500psi coming out. This is something that we've noted though and will be looking at in the future. We would much rather put out a product that has a set output pressure to ensure someone does not overfill and reduce that liability but I see how an unregulated system might be a better solution for users that have multiple guns with different fill requirements.
Thanks again, Bob. I dont think our Engineer is going to get much sleep over the next year with all of the projects he's working on :)
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I wasn't suggesting that the regulator output pin valve would do the job at 4500 psi.... and once opened, it may well be nearly (or completely) impossible to close.... A different valve would be required, and could, very easily, have the restricting orifice designed as part of it.... I use such a design for my bleed valves.... It uses a seat identical to that in your regulator body (small raised area with a very small hole) and the seal is a 3/8" NF bolt with the end drilled and a piece of Delrin inserted.... Unscrew the bolt, valve is open, screw it in, and it seals.... perfect for a bleed valve that vents the pressure....
This design would have to be changed to not jam at 4500 psi from the end force on the bolt.... a pressure balanced design (or one with a small shaft seal) would be required....
Bob
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Our engineer thinks that trying to depress the activating pin on the top of our regulator might be tough to press down with a full 4500psi coming out. This is something that we've noted though and will be looking at in the future. We would much rather put out a product that has a set output pressure to ensure someone does not overfill and reduce that liability but I see how an unregulated system might be a better solution for users that have multiple guns with different fill requirements.
Thanks again, Bob. I dont think our Engineer is going to get much sleep over the next year with all of the projects he's working on :)
Yes, Bob, I was thinking of an unregulated valve.
Rob, what we strive for in a PCP guns tune is the maximum number of shots with the least variation in muzzle velocity from the first shot to the last.(Extreme spread) The velocity usually follows a bell curve, for example, a gun may shoot 850fps on shot 1, 865 on shot 10, 880 on shot 15, and work it's way back down to 850 on shots16 through 30. That would be 30 shots with an Extreme spread of 30. That's not too bad.
Now if your gun starts off at 800 on shot 1 and climbs to 880 on shot 15, back down to 800 on shot 30, an ES of 80fps is not very good, and will result in a different point of impact during the shot string due to the large velocity difference. In this situation, the correct thing to do would be to fill to a lower pressure to "tighten up" the ES, and probably have fewer shots.
These variables change depending on the power level you have the gun adjusted to.
The ability to fill to different pressures is very important to most, and not having it would be a dealbreaker to many.
Would it be possible to regulate to 3300psi, and stop the fill before 3300 is reached by using a gauge, or the gauge on a gun?
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Understood and noted, Bob. I am going to pass this recommendation along to our owner and Engineer.
Pursang - Hypothetically speaking, we should be able to eventually come out with a regulator at 3300-3400psi. We've head about some of the air rifles requiring pressures above 3000psi but we were told it is a very small segment of the market. We needed something that would cover a majority of whats on the market today. Higher output regulators, externally adjustable regulators, and the such are all things we are considering for the future. If we do release something at 3300psi, you wont have to rely on the gauge on the gun to tell you what you're filling up to since the regulator will prevent you from overfilling. However, its always good to have some type of indicator/gauge for piece of mind while filling.
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I think what Pursang was referring to is a regulator to set the maximum pressure, but then close the valve before it reaches that pressure if you need to fill a gun to a lower pressure.... That would require, IMO, a much finer control than what the typical pin-valve actuator can do.... Once they are pressurized in the "on" position, they are often quite hard to close.... impossible if the shuttle is too big for the regulator output pressure....
Bob
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I think what Pursang was referring to is a regulator to set the maximum pressure, but then close the valve before it reaches that pressure if you need to fill a gun to a lower pressure.... That would require, IMO, a much finer control than what the typical pin-valve actuator can do.... Once they are pressurized in the "on" position, they are often quite hard to close.... impossible if the shuttle is too big for the regulator output pressure....
Bob
Right again Bob :)
The point I'm trying to make is how important it is to be able to fill to different pressures. If the new Ninja tanks had this ability, they would be game changers with the lower price.
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Just wanted to post up I noticed the Ninja setup has gone from the preorder stage at Pyramyd to being in stock.
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yep I ordered 2, for my friends, they will be here in couple days
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yep I ordered 2, for my friends, they will be here in couple days
Truly a great deal considering you get the carbon fiber 90cu in, 4500psi tank(same as the Benjamin kit), steel braided hose w/female disconnect and bleeder, and regulator for 3000 psi output (Benjamin kit is not regulated) for 299.99 vs. 399.99 for the Benjamin package.
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Just wanted to post up I noticed the Ninja setup has gone from the preorder stage at Pyramyd to being in stock.
Now that the tanks are in stock, the "no coupons allowed today" has disappeared from the listing. That makes the price $270 plus shipping.
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Seems like this option coupled to a Freedom 8 would allow nearly unlimited tethering for a gun that was tuned to a 2900 psi fill pressure. I'm calculating at least 250 shots on a .22 Marauder before going off regulator and then a lot more before the pressure drops outside of the useable pressure window. This is a good bit of shooting for me and if one had two of these bottles, one could be filling on the F8 while you were shooting off the other. Shouldn't take more than 45 min to go from 3000 to 4500 at 8 CFM and I know that I'm not going to be shooting 250 pellets in that amount of time under normal circumstances.... Then, you'd have 2 mobile bottles as well. The only limitation would be if you were out in the field and wanted massive amounts of air or you had a gun that you wanted to fill at > than 2900 psi, which in this case, you might be shopping for a bigger bottle. Am I thinking about this correctly? Would this regulated bottled be safe to tether from on a bench? I'm going to be buying something soon and I'm trying to come up with the best combo, which will include a Shoebox...
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Seems like this option coupled to a Freedom 8 would allow nearly unlimited tethering for a gun that was tuned to a 2900 psi fill pressure. I'm calculating at least 250 shots on a .22 Marauder before going off regulator and then a lot more before the pressure drops outside of the useable pressure window. This is a good bit of shooting for me and if one had two of these bottles, one could be filling on the F8 while you were shooting off the other. Shouldn't take more than 45 min to go from 3000 to 4500 at 8 CFM and I know that I'm not going to be shooting 250 pellets in that amount of time under normal circumstances.... Then, you'd have 2 mobile bottles as well. The only limitation would be if you were out in the field and wanted massive amounts of air or you had a gun that you wanted to fill at > than 2900 psi, which in this case, you might be shopping for a bigger bottle. Am I thinking about this correctly? Would this regulated bottled be safe to tether from on a bench? I'm going to be buying something soon and I'm trying to come up with the best combo, which will include a Shoebox...
Don't know if I understand fully, but what you're thinking about doing is leaving a tank hooked up to your gun? If this is right it sounds to me like what a lot of paintballers do, use a "remote" hooked up to their markers and feed off that. Sounds like it would work to me, would only use for plinking/target shooting, not hunting that you do any stalking .
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Just wanted to post up I noticed the Ninja setup has gone from the preorder stage at Pyramyd to being in stock.
Now that the tanks are in stock, the "no coupons allowed today" has disappeared from the listing. That makes the price $270 plus shipping.
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Sorry, didn't notice that before. That makes this set up a great buy!
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Just wanted to post up I noticed the Ninja setup has gone from the preorder stage at Pyramyd to being in stock.
Now that the tanks are in stock, the "no coupons allowed today" has disappeared from the listing. That makes the price $270 plus shipping.
Sorry, didn't notice that before. That makes this set up a great buy!
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Hows your system working out for you so far cherokeesteve?
btw, I had a chance to go shoot it up at CPX a few weeks ago. 700+ players the day before Easter. Can you say target rich paintball environment? :)
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Hows your system working out for you so far cherokeesteve?
btw, I had a chance to go shoot it up at CPX a few weeks ago. 700+ players the day before Easter. Can you say target rich paintball environment? :)
Working great. Average 5 fills before needing to top off. 35 shots takes gun from 2 bar down to 1 bar. Set up is very light weight as well. Submitted 7 paintball to Crosman's fill station map and noticed it was on there.
700+ paintballers? Ray Charles could've had a good day there!
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Nice! That is great news and Im glad to hear the system is working out for you. So far, we've been receiving excellent feedback from people using this system to fill and also for tethering. Had a report of someone getting 200+ shots while tethered during a competition. Pretty interesting seeing the different uses for this :)
Yeah, CPX was a blast! Cant wait to get out there to shoot it up again. Im also getting ready to head to the Flag City Toys That Shoot show in Findlay, OH in a few days. I can't wait to see all of the vintage guns and custom stuff at the show.
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Thanks to Ninja for listening to us. I'm not sure if the small bottle option got dropped by the wayside or not. A 13ci tank with a real 2" diameter is just the right size (dia) for using on a QB78/79 and is a common option for those converting this CO2 rifle to HPA. There may be a market for a larger capacity option that went up in length but not diameter. In other words, keep the same 2" diameter but lengthen it out for higher capacity/greater shot count. If this could be done in carbon fiber with 4500 psi regulated down to 900-1200 PSI, 2" diameter with over 13ci there MIGHT be a market for folks using this platform. It would come back to price, probably.
As for the compressor, 2500 is way past your typical home user, but you've indicated that you're aware of that. The 220 volt may be a deal breaker for some, 120 is much more common and would make it more attractive.
Once more, thanks for giving us the chance to have some input on useful articles for our hobby!
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Noticed last night while at pyramyd's site that the fill stations are in"limited quantity "(isn't everything ) sure hope they're ordering more when they're out.
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Thanks to Ninja for listening to us. I'm not sure if the small bottle option got dropped by the wayside or not. A 13ci tank with a real 2" diameter is just the right size (dia) for using on a QB78/79 and is a common option for those converting this CO2 rifle to HPA. There may be a market for a larger capacity option that went up in length but not diameter. In other words, keep the same 2" diameter but lengthen it out for higher capacity/greater shot count. If this could be done in carbon fiber with 4500 psi regulated down to 900-1200 PSI, 2" diameter with over 13ci there MIGHT be a market for folks using this platform. It would come back to price, probably.
We have a 13ci tank with your choice of output pressure on the regulator. Pressure will range anywhere from 300psi on the very low end up to 3000psi output on the high end. We dont really want to get anything larger than the 13ci at this time because the length and diameter play a big factory on if the cylinder will fit on the gun you want to put it on. I like the idea but I just dont think our manufacturer will invest the thousands of dollars needed to try and make and certify that type of cylinder unless there was a large market for it.
As for the compressor, 2500 is way past your typical home user, but you've indicated that you're aware of that. The 220 volt may be a deal breaker for some, 120 is much more common and would make it more attractive.
Good information and thank you for sharing. I'm going to bring the unit with me to the Flag City Toys That Shoot show this weekend and see what people think. Not sure how difficult it would be to convert it to 120 or if it can even be done but I'll mention this to our owner as a feature some people might like to see.
Once more, thanks for giving us the chance to have some input on useful articles for our hobby!
My pleasure! I have never been a big shooter but i'll tell ya....the more I dig into this industry and see what you guys are capable of doing with these pcp guns, the more it interests me. If any other questions come up, post in here and i'll do my best to answer. Thanks and hopefully i'll get a chance to meet some of you guys in Ohio this weekend or at another show later during the year
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Noticed last night while at pyramyd's site that the fill stations are in"limited quantity "(isn't everything ) sure hope they're ordering more when they're out.
Yes, they have been selling very well for them so far. Dont worry, they wont be in "limited quantity" for long :)
Btw, I'll be at CPX in Joliet May 17-19th for their big Living Legends paintball big game. If you're in the area that weekend, stop by the booth and say hi. Would be great to meet you in person
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Rob, there is a 22 CI 3000 psi tank that is (just a few thou under) 2" in diameter already available in the marketplace, and I recently discovered there is also a 17 CI.... They all use the same 5/8-NF threads in the neck, so the regulators will interchange....
Bob
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Like these? http://www.jdsairman.com/TanksRegs.html (http://www.jdsairman.com/TanksRegs.html) I only post a competitor's products in this thread because they can be found and...competition is good. I don't know the o.d. of these tanks.
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Hey guys. Sorry I haven't been on the last few days. I had the pleasure of attending the Flag City Toys That Shoot airgun show and was busy planning my trip. All in all, it was a fun show and I learned more about some of the custom stuff guys have built and what some people are looking for in terms of filling the cylinders.
Side note - I had a lengthy discussion with a few guys at the show that were looking to install regulators in their guns while leaving them tethered to a large bottle to make very consistent shots. The regulators cost around $250. I recommended having us build a regulator and regulate the air coming from the cylinder they are tethering from. Not only could they use it for tethering and regulating every single shot but they could also use it for filling. Might be a very nice way to provide very consistent shots.
Thanks for the post on the other cylinders. We're very familiar with them and have looked at them in the past. We tend to use a very specific cylinder manufacturer to get the best prices and we would have to go through another company to have them made. Since its a very small segment of the market, we haven't dived into those size cylinders yet but it is something that's on our radar.
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My kit came in today and I picked it up over lunch. Looking forward to trying it out this evening...
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My kit came in today and I picked it up over lunch. Looking forward to trying it out this evening...
Good to hear you were able to pick up the system today! Looking forward to hearing your feedback
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Good to hear you were able to pick up the system today! Looking forward to hearing your feedback
Jon at Mayhem Park (http://www.mayhempark.com/) was kind enough to fill my tank for me (on his day off! actually he was at the shop, but not officially open ;) ) to 4500 psi, which settled to about 4200-4300 psi after cooling. I didn't realize that the bleed screw had to be cranked down pretty firmly (is that normal for a new bleed valve) and I had the main valve accidentally cracked when I attached the fill station to the regulator, so I lost several hundred pounds before the first shot was fired. No hose whipping - I was taking things pretty slowly because this was my first time with this kind of valving, so that's good.
Anyway, I connected the rifle in tether mode and started shooting. The hose is just long enough to do this without strain. See pic below. Initially, I had the valve only cracked open (common best practice to limit flow if a connection is lost) and within about 40 shots, I noticed I wasn't really "tethered" anymore. It appears that the valve needs to be opened further than I had it or as the pressure drops, the valve closes if it's only cracked. I'm used to a 2-stage regulator where when the cylinder valve is cracked, the system remains stable. Is what I observed normal for this type of regulator? In any case, I cranked it open quite a bit more and I shot and shot and shot and shot and shot (~27-30 fpe). Now I understand why people wait up to a minute between shots with a PCP: after about 60 rounds (I only have two 10-shot mags, so there was a few reloads in between the strings) I started to see the POI drifting pretty badly. Turns out the relatively rapid firing was causing the whole system to cool down due to air expansion out of the external cylinder. I put my hand on the gun's air tube and it was pretty cool to the touch; same with the Ninja bottle! So, I started pausing for at least 20 seconds between shots and things stayed a lot more stable. I'm thinking that the temperature change was causing some barrel/breech/air tube flex - given it's free-floating barrel design - causing POI to shift.
Anyway, tethered, I was able to shoot from about 3900 to 2500 (Ninja regulator reading) and have consistent POI after I slowed down. I have my gun setup so that from 2900 psi to about 2000 psi, the POI doesn't move noticeably due to a flat velocity within that pressure range. I didn't count how many times I reloaded my magazines, but I'm guessing that I ran around 250-300 pellets through at this muzzle energy. I am VERY happy I bought this little cylinder! It's small enough to put in a backpack and I can tether off it for way longer than I usually shoot for - *great* for pellet testing and sighting in a rifle! Thanks for putting this together!
(http://redboston.com/miscfora/2013-04-15%2022.27.58.jpg)
(http://redboston.com/miscfora/2013-04-15%2022.30.26.jpg)
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Jon at Mayhem Park (http://www.mayhempark.com/) was kind enough to fill my tank for me (on his day off! actually he was at the shop, but not officially open ;) ) to 4500 psi, which settled to about 4200-4300 psi after cooling. I didn't realize that the bleed screw had to be cranked down pretty firmly (is that normal for a new bleed valve) and I had the main valve accidentally cracked when I attached the fill station to the regulator, so I lost several hundred pounds before the first shot was fired. No hose whipping - I was taking things pretty slowly because this was my first time with this kind of valving, so that's good.
Im very happy to hear that Jon was able to help you out with filling the system. When we fill a "guppy" cylinder in paintball, we tend to flash fill them and top them off in a matter of seconds, which will result in heat from the cylinder expanding. As it cools down, you will lose pressure. If you dont mind waiting a few minutes, have Jon top it off for you after it cools down. You will need to make sure that the on/off knob on the Universal Fill Adapter part of the PCP Fill Station is activating the pin on the top of the regulator enough to where it is releasing the full 3000psi. If you only crack it open, it will make your gun "starve" for air due to not enough flow. Screwing the knob down more will push the pin on top of the regulator further down into the regulator allowing is to regulate correctly.
Anyway, I connected the rifle in tether mode and started shooting. The hose is just long enough to do this without strain. See pic below. Initially, I had the valve only cracked open (common best practice to limit flow if a connection is lost) and within about 40 shots, I noticed I wasn't really "tethered" anymore. It appears that the valve needs to be opened further than I had it or as the pressure drops, the valve closes if it's only cracked. I'm used to a 2-stage regulator where when the cylinder valve is cracked, the system remains stable. Is what I observed normal for this type of regulator? In any case, I cranked it open quite a bit more and I shot and shot and shot and shot and shot (~27-30 fpe). Now I understand why people wait up to a minute between shots with a PCP: after about 60 rounds (I only have two 10-shot mags, so there was a few reloads in between the strings) I started to see the POI drifting pretty badly. Turns out the relatively rapid firing was causing the whole system to cool down due to air expansion out of the external cylinder. I put my hand on the gun's air tube and it was pretty cool to the touch; same with the Ninja bottle! So, I started pausing for at least 20 seconds between shots and things stayed a lot more stable. I'm thinking that the temperature change was causing some barrel/breech/air tube flex - given it's free-floating barrel design - causing POI to shift.
Very interesting. I've never considered temperature variations and how they would affect your POI. When you allow air to flow very rapidly, it will cool down the device its feeding and cool down the regulator and bottle. In paintball, if we allow one of our regulators to fully vent from 4500psi to zero in a matter of seconds, condensation and moisture will occur and a little frost will most likely develop. When this happens, the orings may not work correctly and the regulator may start to vent between the bonnet and the bottom of the regulator and not regulator the pressure correctly. When you were rapid firing, how quickly were you pulling the trigger? (example: 1 pull per second, 1 pull every 2 seconds, etc).
Anyway, tethered, I was able to shoot from about 3900 to 2500 (Ninja regulator reading) and have consistent POI after I slowed down. I have my gun setup so that from 2900 psi to about 2000 psi, the POI doesn't move noticeably due to a flat velocity within that pressure range. I didn't count how many times I reloaded my magazines, but I'm guessing that I ran around 250-300 pellets through at this muzzle energy. I am VERY happy I bought this little cylinder! It's small enough to put in a backpack and I can tether off it for way longer than I usually shoot for - *great* for pellet testing and sighting in a rifle! Thanks for putting this together!
Thank you very much for the detailed feedback while using the Ninja cylinder, regulator, and fill station! This has a lot of great information I can use while talking to other shoots and I appreciate you sharing your results. Just as a quick heads up, if you ever need a longer Steel Braided Line with male fittings pre-installed, we make custom lengths in house. We could make you the exact length your looking for if you determine the current line is not long enough. Very easy to install the new steel braided line into your existing system.
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When you were rapid firing, how quickly were you pulling the trigger? (example: 1 pull per second, 1 pull every 2 seconds, etc).
I was shooting benched, with the shoulder from the gun using a repeating rifle taking a shot immediately after cocking the gun and re-sighting. I'm guessing 7-10 seconds between shots...
Thank you very much for the detailed feedback while using the Ninja cylinder, regulator, and fill station! This has a lot of great information I can use while talking to other shoots and I appreciate you sharing your results. Just as a quick heads up, if you ever need a longer Steel Braided Line with male fittings pre-installed, we make custom lengths in house. We could make you the exact length your looking for if you determine the current line is not long enough. Very easy to install the new steel braided line into your existing system.
No problem. I'll use the setup for awhile and let you know whether or not it would be beneficial to have a little longer whip. I imagine it might be very useful to have a longer whip connected all the time, especially if I use the tank when shooting uphill (which happens to be my backyard!) as the front end of the gun needs to be elevated more and I would rather not set the cylinder in something make-shift, nor carry extra gear around to shoot in that situation. I may try to shoot outside tomorrow evening and see how the hose length does and update this thread with my feedback. Thanks for the consideration!
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Did some more testing tonight. I have a good guage (not NIST traceable or anything, but better than the gun gauge) that I can put in between the gun and the bottle so I can see what pressure the line is during tethering (I purchased it for another reason, but it works well for this, too). I see that my Ninja regulator is regulating to about 2750 psi or so after I do a fill of the gun's air tube. I let the bottle remain open and proceeded to shoot down range. I noticed that the "good" gauge slowly drops to about 2600 psi and then tends to stabilize there during a shooting session. I see the gauge drop a few 10s of psi immediately after a shot and then the gauge recovers to 2600 psi. If I let the bottle remained tether for ~15 minutes without shooting, I see the gauge slowly drift toward about 2700 psi. I would probably recover to 2750, but I didn't wait that long. What I think is going on is that there is interplay between line pressure and the check valve on the rifle. There appears to be required differential between the bottle pressure and the air tube that is required for air to follow the pressure gradient and move past the check valve on the rifle at a reasonable rate, which is why the guage settles to about 2600 psi during shooting session (not really rapid firing, just casual shooting with a single shot tray installed in the gun breech to slow things down a bit.
These things are simply observations that I'm reporting, not really a criticism. Actually, I'm very happy where the pressure settles to because it is in the wide pressure band where I get the most consistent shot velocities. To anyone who buys one, don't be put off, embrace the data and use it as a part of your tuning considerations for shooting tethered with a system like this. Chances are, you'll have to change nothing on a gun that fills to 3000 psi max as most of these rifles like to, from what I can gather, be shot anywhere between 2000 and 3000 psi. The pressure is consistent and the drift upward is very slow, at least on my .22 Marauder.
I have a big smile on my face. This is a nice little rig. I wouldn't complain, though, if the bottle regulated at 2950 psi, though, for fills and the droop ended up at around 2700-2800 psi. i.e. I don't think it is worth the shipping it would cost me to sent the regulator back to Ninja for a tweak.
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Nice informative stuff spreho, especially with your Mrod. Good job.
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More great information! Thanks again and please let us know what else you find as you continue using the product. If you have any questions, feel free to call me direct at 877-646-5287 x309
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Would you guys be interested in something like an 88 cu ft cylinder with one of these high output regulators mounted on it? It would replace the need to have a din 300 scuba valve on top. You would be able to use the same fill station that's pictured on the first page to allow the regulated air to flow into the cylinder on your gun. You could also add a longer steel braided hose for tethering purposes (we make custom length hoses).
Almost forgot! We just released a 5000psi rated Foster Quick Disconnect fitting that has a Safety Check Strut inside that will prevent the hose from whipping around if it becomes detached from the fill valve while the line has pressure. Its available in 1/8" male or female NPT or 1/4" female NPT.
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af33/Pharcyide/SafetyCheckStrutQuickDisconnects_zps95f29c26.jpg)
We received some pretty good feedback on the compressor unit and listing it for around $2500. Electric start, fills our 90ci (16.2 cu ft) cylinders in under 9min, auto shut off at 4500psi (set it and forget it), weighs about 80lbs. This would be geared more towards gun ranges or gun stores that sell pcp guns and would like to also offer fills to their customers. Not sure if we'll move forward with that but its still being discussed.
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I think the idea of an 88CF tank with a high output reg on it is a great idea.... but why not take the opportunity to make the regulator adjustable for the new setup?.... It would be VASTLY superior for tethering, and far more useful for filling a variety of guns with different fill pressures.... eg. Disco to 2000 psi, MRod to 3000, maybe even a big-bore to 4000.... The setup is going to be bigger and heavier anyway, and more suited for home/range use than field use, where you already have that covered with your excellent 90CI/4500 portable fill station....
The safety check on a female Foster is a GREAT idea.... I'll be replacing all the ones I have on the end of hoses as soon as they are available....
Bob
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I think the idea of an 88CF tank with a high output reg on it is a great idea.... but why not take the opportunity to make the regulator adjustable for the new setup?.... It would be VASTLY superior for tethering, and far more useful for filling a variety of guns with different fill pressures.... eg. Disco to 2000 psi, MRod to 3000, maybe even a big-bore to 4000.... The setup is going to be bigger and heavier anyway, and more suited for home/range use than field use, where you already have that covered with your excellent 90CI/4500 portable fill station....
The safety check on a female Foster is a GREAT idea.... I'll be replacing all the ones I have on the end of hoses as soon as they are available....
Bob
An externally adjustable regulator would definitely be an "ideal" product and its something we've discussed. We have an older, dual regulated design that was externally adjustable and could probably be modified slightly to be used at higher pressures but we'll have to do a lot of work before we could release anything.
This is on our radar though
Glad you like the safety check. A lot of our paintball stores and fields have been picking them up to install on their fill lines. This would be a great fitting to install on a Shoebox. These fittings are available now. I'll be in the office on Monday if you want to order some.
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I think offering the large tank with regulator is good, but it will be a smaller niche than one with adjustable regulation. I wouldn't buy it because that's a lot of coin for a big tank without a lot of flexibility in use cases. For someone *only* shooting off the bench, it would be ideal.
With my fixed reg Ninja setup, I'm limited to 2800 psi unless I want to send it in for adjustment. For a longer untethered shot string, I would want a full 3000 psi charge. For my use cases, 2800 is fine, but I could see others getting frustrated with that upper limit on a small tank and more so on a larger tank. For example, I'm finding it useful to re-fill my Ninja bottle with my big tank for a quick recharge. It doesn't fill to a full 4500 psi, of course, but in about 60 seconds, I can have portability again for another round of shooting without carrying the big tank everywhere. Then, when I have time, I can pump the big tank up for more use as a small tank filler or gun filler to max fill pressure.
I really like the check-valve Foster fitting as well. I may be contacting you about a few of those...
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with the 88 CF you can not even fill the 90CI/4500 PSI fill station.
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I don't see why you couldn't add air to the 90CI tank from the 88CF (4500 psi) tank with the proper fittings. It won't, of course, fill the small tank to 4500 psi, but it should take it to 4200 psi or so if you are only topping off the small thank from about 3000 psi, which if you are tethering off of the 90CI (regulated, of course) tank, is a lot of shots.
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I think airpuffhunter's point was that you can't fill the 90 CI / 4500 portable fill station COMPLETELY using another 4500 psi tank, and he is correct in that.... If you refill the 90 CI (16 CF) when it hits 2800 from an 88 CF tank at 4500, the pressure after the first fill would be about 4200 as sperho says.... and each fill would drop about another 300 psi....
Bob
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Yes. My point was that a useful fill need not be a complete fill, which I pointed out in my post a few up (#114).
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mi ideas is that if the 88cf tank is regulated to 3000 psi, it will be useless for filling the 90Ci to anything above 3000.
so it must have a way to regulate pressure.
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mi ideas is that if the 88cf tank is regulated to 3000 psi, it will be useless for filling the 90Ci to anything above 3000.
so it must have a way to regulate pressure.
Yup, only way to get a rated capacity fill is having the output at source equal to tanks pressure rating.
Filling a regulated cylinder off another regulated cylinder won't cut it :P
* Only exception is a tank like Benjamins aluminum 3K fill to 2K regulated bottle. A regulated 3K source would top it off nicely ;D
Nice step down for guns like Disco's
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mi ideas is that if the 88cf tank is regulated to 3000 psi, it will be useless for filling the 90Ci to anything above 3000.
so it must have a way to regulate pressure.
I could not agree more. The primary purpose of a 4500psi SCBA bottle with a 3000psi output regulator would be to fill your guns cylinder up to 3000psi, not necessarily the guppy tanks.
The only scenario I could see it being useful in filling guppy tanks would be if you're going on a trip and need maybe 1 or 2 fills at the most. Being that you could only fill the 4500psi guppy tank to 3000psi, you would get one 3000psi fill on your gun and every fill after that would continuously drop in pressure.
* Only exception is a tank like Benjamins aluminum 3K fill to 2K regulated bottle. A regulated 3K source would top it off nicely ;D
Nice step down for guns like Disco's
We started manufacturing the aluminum Benjamin air systems for them a few years back ;) That system was one of the main reasons we started making the higher output regulators for the guys running 3000psi guns.
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I'm also thrilled to see you guys come up with this nice little package. I got into PCP last year and was pretty turned off with the price of the CF tanks..Great product
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Mods - please move this to the right section on this forum or please let me know where I should post this if this is the wrong section for this type of post.
UPDATED - includes picture. Finally found out how to post one up on here :D
Hi everyone. My name's Rob and I work for a company called Ninja Paintball, a division of Pressure Specialist Inc located outside of Chicago, IL. We are a machine shop that specializes in high pressure air products, mainly for the paintball industry. We have been manufacturing products for several m anufacturers in the AirGun industry over the last few years and have seen a need for a product that would give you guys a mobile, fast, safe, and easy way to fill the air cylinders on your rifles and pistols.
Our company manufacturers a 90cubic inch bottle that is rated to hold 4500psi. We would then install a regulator at the top of the bottle that would regulate the 4500psi inside the bottle down to say 3000psi or whatever output pressure you choose (ranging from 250psi on the low end all the way up to 3000psi currently). You would then screw the regulator (attached to the bottle) into what we call our PCP Fill Station. The PCP Fill Station device has a Universal Fill Adapter with an on/off know to allow the air to flow out of the bottle and regulator. The air would travel into the Universal Fill Adapter, down a steel braided line and then into our fill device. The fill device has a vent knob on the side to vent the air after you fill your cylinder and it also has a Quick Disconnect fitting you can use to attach the fitting on your cylinder or whatever fill adapter you need to make to have the device work with your fitting on your particular air cylinder.
Here's the total package including PCP Fill Station and 90ci/4500psi bottle.
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af33/Pharcyide/PCPFillSolution_zpsf85d3ed0.jpg)
We are on the verge of releasing the products and are waiting on the manuals to be finalized. For just the PCP Fill Station, you are looking at a MSRP of $76.95. The 90ci/4500psi bottle with custom output regulator (you designate the output pressure) should MSRP at $224.95.
The PCP Fill Station setup weights roughly 1 lb
The 90ci/4500psi Bottle with Regulator weighs roughly 3lbs 8oz.
That means you would have a mobile filling solution, capable of filling at a minimum of 2 full fills, that would weigh under 5 lbs.
We tested the system with a Benjamin Marauder Air Cylinder and here are our results:
We were able to get (2) full fills in the Benjamin Marauder Air Cylinder off of our 90ci/4500psi bottle and regulator. What we did was empty the cylinder of all pressure. Then filled the cylinder to the recommended pressure. We then bled all of the air out of the cylinder, bring the pressure down to 0 again. We then filled the cylinder all the way up to the recommended pressure again. We bled the air a third time and on the third fill, we were able to get roughly 600psi in the cylinder. We understand that you will fill the cylinders before it reaches zero but hopefully this data will help you determine how many fills you may be able to achieve at the pressure you refill at and the size of your cylinder.
All of our fittings, hoses, and products are properly rated for this application. We are part of the ASTM sub-committee for paintball so we make sure to follow the safety recommendations which means our regulator will include (2) safety burst disks which we hold the patent on.
If anyone has any specific questions, please post in here. I will do my best to keep an eye on this thread. Again, it will be a few weeks or so before we're able to start selling these since we're waiting on our manual to be finalized but we're close. I just wanted to post this to see what your guys' thoughts are on this solution. Any feedback or recommendations you guys have would be greatly appreciated.
Where is a link to this product or is it still in the making
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https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-venturi-carbon-fiber-air-tank-fill-station-4500-psi-88-cu-in?a=4708 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/air-venturi-carbon-fiber-air-tank-fill-station-4500-psi-88-cu-in?a=4708)
Or call your local paintball dealer to order it... It's at a few other places too (Google).
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Just notified by NINJA fill stations ready to ship ;D
Very cool having a filler that's fanny pack compact for in field filling (http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=0#)
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Just notified by NINJA fill stations ready to ship ;D
Very cool having a filler that's fanny pack compact for in field filling (http://www.bmwlt.com/forums/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=0#)
Let me know what you think after you get done tryin her out :)
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They're going to be the cats meow. I have something similar but am looking to get a second one later when I get my .25 cal
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They're going cats meow. I have something similar but am looking to get a second one later when I get my .25 cal
Sounds like a plan. Let me know if you have any questions before purchasing.
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Btw where do I go to get one. I have friends getting into pcp and might want to get one
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Btw where do I go to get one. I have friends getting into pcp and might want to get one
We have several places selling them. I'll send you a pm with some contact information for them.
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Hello Rob
I have 1 of these settings, they are great.
I have a question, when filing my gun, there is a little leak of air when turning the pin knob is that normal?
it's at the end of the turning, after closing the pin.
thank you
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Hello Rob
I have 1 of these settings, they are great.
I have a question, when filing my gun, there is a little leak of air when turning the pin knob is that normal?
it's at the end of the turning, after closing the pin.
thank you
Nope, not normal. Your system should not have any leaks. If there is one, we should try and pinpoint the issue and see if we can help you out.
Can you give me a call at 877-646-5287 x309 when you have some time? We should be able to take care of this issue for you over the phone. When you call me, make sure to have your Ninja cylinder and fill station with you and if you have any "gun oil", have that nearby as well
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Thank you Rob I will set up everything and call you.
I Have silicone lube is that ok?
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Thank you Rob I will set up everything and call you.
I Have silicone lube is that ok?
100% ok! Silicone based lube is the only lube you should ever use when dealing with a high pressure air reg. Please do not introduce gun oil or any petroleum based lube in our regulator. Ive seen pictures of people that ended up in the hospital after using the wrong lubricant. Not to scare you but I want to make sure to drive that point home.
Thanks and call me whenever you're ready :)
Thank you Rob I will set up everything and call you.
I Have silicone lube is that ok?
Forgot you might have a leak in the Universal Fill Adapter that has the on/off knob on it. If the leak is in that area, you will need gun oil. Just make sure not to introduce the gun oil inside of the regulator, which is mounted in the neck of the cylinder.
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Looks like I have a small leak when I fill my gun too. It comes from bleed pin hole. I use the CP fill fitting. The on/off with bleed valve built into it
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Looks like I have a small leak when I fill my gun too. It comes from bleed pin hole. I use the CP fill fitting. The on/off with bleed valve built into it
When you say the bleed pin hole, where is that located exactly? I want to see if you're referring to something on the Ninja product or if its on the CP Fill Fitting.
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Looks like I have a small leak when I fill my gun too. It comes from bleed pin hole. I use the CP fill fitting. The on/off with bleed valve built into it
When you say the bleed pin hole, where is that located exactly? I want to see if you're referring to something on the Ninja product or if its on the CP Fill Fitting.
On the cp fitting
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On the cp fitting
On the CP fitting, I believe there is an oring on the shaft for the on/off knob to activate the air. You may need to lube or replace it to make it seal up correctly. CP is a great group of people. If you need help on it or need the oring size, they can be reached at (480) 539-4820
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Thanks, Mark! How many shots are you getting off of the 13ci/3000psi bottle with an output of 1100psi before you need to refill the cylinder?
Hypothetically speaking, if someone came out with a cylinder that is similar in width to the 13ci/3000psi bottle or maybe slightly larger in diameter but also longer, would it be beneficial to you? We're wondering if a slightly longer or larger aluminum bottle might be better or if there are any size/length restrictions which force you to use a smaller bottle.
I have a 13ci Ninja tank with 1100 psi regulator for one of my QB79s. My other 2 have 17ci Catalina RAP4 tanks with 1500 psi regulators that perform better for this application. The tank diameter must be 2" max. for this application. I would like to see you make higher volume tanks in the 2" max. diameter size and offer some higher output regulators of the SHP style with orientation adjustment ring. The ability to adjust orientation is a great feature of the SHP regulator for air gunners. We could really benefit from some additional high pressure output settings above your current max. 1100 psi setting of the SHP regulator. You would then own the market for QB79 HPA conversions.
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I don't think you will find Ninja making regulators where the pressure is pushed too close to the 1.8K burst disc pressure, as they don't want the disc to keep venting, which will happen if you get the pressures too close to 1800 psi, particularly if you fill the gun indoors and them put it in a hot car or out in the hot sun.... I always use a 1.8K burst disc in my QBs because they were designed for CO2, and you should always protect them from seeing over 1800 psi.... Burst discs have a tolerance, and can fail as much as 10% below their marked pressure (ie 1620 psi for a 1.8K disc).... If you fill a gun at 70*F and then take it into 120*F temperatures, the pressure will increase about 10% above the regulator setpoint.... If that is 1500 psi, you're looking at 1650.... Combine that with a low tolerance 1.8K disc, and it WILL vent.... While this is not unsafe, it is merely annoying, it WILL scare the heck out of you, and will spoil your day of shooting if you don't have a spare with you.... I have had this happen with a regulator set at 1600 psi, but never at 1500.... maybe I've just been lucky.... At 1400, it would be very unlikely....
There is another Gremlin working against you, though.... metal fatigue.... Each time you let the pressure in the tank go below the regulator setpoint, the burst disc flexes a bit as the pressure drops and then recovers when you refill.... Heck, it even flexes a tiny amount during each shot.... That continual movement of the thin metal disc in the burst disc will fatigue it, and eventually it will fail.... The closer you push your setpoint to the designed failure point of the disc, the shorter the life will be.... Most burst discs are fitted so that their rupture point is 5/3rds of the working pressure.... You will find 3K discs on 1800 psi CO3 tanks, 5K on 3000 psi HPA tanks, and 7.5K discs on 4500 psi SCBA tanks.... Working backwards from a 1.8K disc gives you 1080 psi as the appropriate working pressure for a 1.8K disc to have a "normal" life span.... The Ninja SHP tanks are obviously set at 1100 psi with that in mind, IMO.... Yes, you can bump up the pressure a bit, PROVIDED you leave the 1.8K burst disc in place on a QB or 22XX (even a Disco).... I use 1500 psi all the time, and I have used 1600 (with the occasional failure as noted).... 1400 psi would probably work just fine.... but I rather doubt you will convince Ninja to do that from the factory....
For most "converted" CO2 guns using HPA, fitting a 3K burst disc to avoid it failing is, IMO, a very UNSAFE practice.... Doing so will mean that a regulator leak will dump full tank pressure (3000 psi) into a gun designed for 850 psi, and "maybe" designed to be safe at 1900 psi (the pressure achieved by CO2 at 120*F), providing the engineers did their homework and the bean-counters followed their design.... I know of a QB79 where the tank block blew off the end of the main tube when the mounting screws sheared during a regulator failure with the tank at 2600 psi, and no downstream burst disc in the (cheap) regulator.... Nobody was hurt, but it could have been fatal.... NEVER operate a QB on HPA without a 1.8K burst disc downstream of the regulator....
Bob
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Thanks, Mark! How many shots are you getting off of the 13ci/3000psi bottle with an output of 1100psi before you need to refill the cylinder?
Hypothetically speaking, if someone came out with a cylinder that is similar in width to the 13ci/3000psi bottle or maybe slightly larger in diameter but also longer, would it be beneficial to you? We're wondering if a slightly longer or larger aluminum bottle might be better or if there are any size/length restrictions which force you to use a smaller bottle.
I have a 13ci Ninja tank with 1100 psi regulator for one of my QB79s. My other 2 have 17ci Catalina RAP4 tanks with 1500 psi regulators that perform better for this application. The tank diameter must be 2" max. for this application. I would like to see you make higher volume tanks in the 2" max. diameter size and offer some higher output regulators of the SHP style with orientation adjustment ring. The ability to adjust orientation is a great feature of the SHP regulator for air gunners. We could really benefit from some additional high pressure output settings above your current max. 1100 psi setting of the SHP regulator. You would then own the market for QB79 HPA conversions.
We dont want to put too much stress on the retaining ring that holds the rotational collar that allows you to reposition the fill nipple and gauge so we keep the max pressure for this design at 1100psi. There's an old school trick you can do to also help relocate the fillvalve and gauge on our regulators which is seating a 015-90U oring into the adapter you want to thread the regulator into. The oring prevents you from installing the regulator all the way while still activating the pin valve to allow air to flow out. We also have a kit called Adjusting Clips that are like a c-clip that you attach under the threads at the top of the regulator that thread into the gun and the clips come in different thicknesses. It does the same trick as the oring where it wont allow you to install the regulator all the way but still allow you to activate the air.
It would be nice but im just not sure if the design of the rotational collar will still be safe at the higher pressures. Thanks for the recommendation though and I will make sure to bring this up in our next meeting
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I don't think you will find Ninja making regulators where the pressure is pushed too close to the 1.8K burst disc pressure, as they don't want the disc to keep venting, which will happen if you get the pressures too close to 1800 psi, particularly if you fill the gun indoors and them put it in a hot car or out in the hot sun.... I always use a 1.8K burst disc in my QBs because they were designed for CO2, and you should always protect them from seeing over 1800 psi.... Burst discs have a tolerance, and can fail as much as 10% below their marked pressure (ie 1620 psi for a 1.8K disc).... If you fill a gun at 70*F and then take it into 120*F temperatures, the pressure will increase about 10% above the regulator setpoint.... If that is 1500 psi, you're looking at 1650.... Combine that with a low tolerance 1.8K disc, and it WILL vent.... While this is not unsafe, it is merely annoying, it WILL scare the heck out of you, and will spoil your day of shooting if you don't have a spare with you.... I have had this happen with a regulator set at 1600 psi, but never at 1500.... maybe I've just been lucky.... At 1400, it would be very unlikely....
There is another Gremlin working against you, though.... metal fatigue.... Each time you let the pressure in the tank go below the regulator setpoint, the burst disc flexes a bit as the pressure drops and then recovers when you refill.... Heck, it even flexes a tiny amount during each shot.... That continual movement of the thin metal disc in the burst disc will fatigue it, and eventually it will fail.... The closer you push your setpoint to the designed failure point of the disc, the shorter the life will be.... Most burst discs are fitted so that their rupture point is 5/3rds of the working pressure.... You will find 3K discs on 1800 psi CO3 tanks, 5K on 3000 psi HPA tanks, and 7.5K discs on 4500 psi SCBA tanks.... Working backwards from a 1.8K disc gives you 1080 psi as the appropriate working pressure for a 1.8K disc to have a "normal" life span.... The Ninja SHP tanks are obviously set at 1100 psi with that in mind, IMO.... Yes, you can bump up the pressure a bit, PROVIDED you leave the 1.8K burst disc in place on a QB or 22XX (even a Disco).... I use 1500 psi all the time, and I have used 1600 (with the occasional failure as noted).... 1400 psi would probably work just fine.... but I rather doubt you will convince Ninja to do that from the factory....
For most "converted" CO2 guns using HPA, fitting a 3K burst disc to avoid it failing is, IMO, a very UNSAFE practice.... Doing so will mean that a regulator leak will dump full tank pressure (3000 psi) into a gun designed for 850 psi, and "maybe" designed to be safe at 1900 psi (the pressure achieved by CO2 at 120*F), providing the engineers did their homework and the bean-counters followed their design.... I know of a QB79 where the tank block blew off the end of the main tube when the mounting screws sheared during a regulator failure with the tank at 2600 psi, and no downstream burst disc in the (cheap) regulator.... Nobody was hurt, but it could have been fatal.... NEVER operate a QB on HPA without a 1.8K burst disc downstream of the regulator....
Bob
GREAT information!
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This is a great fill setup and been using this a few weeks. Its light and doesn't waste allot of air when bleeding off
CP makes the adaptor and the microbore hose is a real winner
(http://www.drivehq.com/file/df.aspx/shareID10142263/fileID1439444168/1439444168.jpg)
(http://www.drivehq.com/file/df.aspx/shareID10142263/fileID1439417685/1439417685.jpg)
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CP is a great company and good friends of ours. That ASA paintball adapter has a nice built in bleed valve which makes the unit much more compact. If I'm not mistaken, I think my buddy Dave at Addicted2Airguns.com makes/sells those units.
Wait till you guys see the version 2 of our fill station package. It will probably be a year or so down the road before we can release it but I have a feeling that the guys looking for a compact and efficient unit will be happy with the re-design. Looks great on paper and now we just need to get a prototype built after we're done with our busy paintball season.
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Yes Dave has those on his tanks. I got the hose and parts from him to build me 2 to replace the. Crossman ones. They are too big and waste allot of air. I think a better approach would be get rid of reg altogether and put a valve right on bottle like the guppy has. Then you can fill to whatever you want not being limited to reg set pressure
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I was using my Fill Station last night and found it a bit frustrating.... I have one I made using a Ninja reg which was factory set to 2500 psi, and a Ninja valve which pushes the pin valve open.... It was very stiff initially, so I lubricated the threads (where the friction was) with Moly (only on the outboard side of the O-ring) and it's much better.... However, it opened really easy, but as soon as it's pressurized, it gets instantly a lot more difficult to turn, either to open or close.... Since I was trying to fill a Disco (2000 psi) I needed good control over the output so I could shut it off at that pressure, rather than letting the regulator do it's job.... Because the knob is stiff to turn, it was hard to shut it off when I needed to.... Even if I was filling to 2500 psi it still would have been hard to shut off (actually even harder from the higher pressure)....
This is because of the design of the valve.... The sealing O-ring is large enough that it puts a lot of end force on the threads, causing the friction.... There is a limit to how small it can be, of course, and some similar valves with larger O-rings are impossible to shut off over 1500 psi (I know, I've had some of them).... By comparision, the valve on my SCUBA tank can be opened and closed with two fingers, it has hardly any resistance at all because it uses sliding components and a balanced design.... In order for this fill station to be more useful (and IMO safer), I think it needs a balanced design for the valve so that it can be opened and closed effortlessly and with good control over the flow.... This would be CRITICAL for the design to be used without a regulator, of course.... I hope Ninja address this issue on their new fill station.... Since it's only "on paper" at the moment, I thought it might be a good time to mention it....
Bob
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I was using my Fill Station last night and found it a bit frustrating.... I have one I made using a Ninja reg which was factory set to 2500 psi, and a Ninja valve which pushes the pin valve open.... It was very stiff initially, so I lubricated the threads (where the friction was) with Moly (only on the outboard side of the O-ring) and it's much better.... However, it opened really easy, but as soon as it's pressurized, it gets instantly a lot more difficult to turn, either to open or close.... Since I was trying to fill a Disco (2000 psi) I needed good control over the output so I could shut it off at that pressure, rather than letting the regulator do it's job.... Because the knob is stiff to turn, it was hard to shut it off when I needed to.... Even if I was filling to 2500 psi it still would have been hard to shut off (actually even harder from the higher pressure)....
This is because of the design of the valve.... The sealing O-ring is large enough that it puts a lot of end force on the threads, causing the friction.... There is a limit to how small it can be, of course, and some similar valves with larger O-rings are impossible to shut off over 1500 psi (I know, I've had some of them).... By comparision, the valve on my SCUBA tank can be opened and closed with two fingers, it has hardly any resistance at all because it uses sliding components and a balanced design.... In order for this fill station to be more useful (and IMO safer), I think it needs a balanced design for the valve so that it can be opened and closed effortlessly and with good control over the flow.... This would be CRITICAL for the design to be used without a regulator, of course.... I hope Ninja address this issue on their new fill station.... Since it's only "on paper" at the moment, I thought it might be a good time to mention it....
Bob
Those fill stations have on/off valves. They are designed to open and close only. You can't slowly eak out the air to fill disco. The guppy tank has a valve on it that allows you to do this. That was the point in my above post. You need another tank with a 2k regulator for work properly
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You can't slowly eak out the air to fill disco.
Well you can, but it ain't easy.... that was my point.... If there was less resistance on the knob it would be much easier.... The ultimate solution, of course, would be to eliminate the pin valve in the end of the regulator as the control point.... and have a valve that can be cracked slowly like that on a SCUBA tank....
Bob
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I was using my Fill Station last night and found it a bit frustrating.... I have one I made using a Ninja reg which was factory set to 2500 psi, and a Ninja valve which pushes the pin valve open.... It was very stiff initially, so I lubricated the threads (where the friction was) with Moly (only on the outboard side of the O-ring) and it's much better.... However, it opened really easy, but as soon as it's pressurized, it gets instantly a lot more difficult to turn, either to open or close.... Since I was trying to fill a Disco (2000 psi) I needed good control over the output so I could shut it off at that pressure, rather than letting the regulator do it's job.... Because the knob is stiff to turn, it was hard to shut it off when I needed to.... Even if I was filling to 2500 psi it still would have been hard to shut off (actually even harder from the higher pressure)....
This is because of the design of the valve.... The sealing O-ring is large enough that it puts a lot of end force on the threads, causing the friction.... There is a limit to how small it can be, of course, and some similar valves with larger O-rings are impossible to shut off over 1500 psi (I know, I've had some of them).... By comparision, the valve on my SCUBA tank can be opened and closed with two fingers, it has hardly any resistance at all because it uses sliding components and a balanced design.... In order for this fill station to be more useful (and IMO safer), I think it needs a balanced design for the valve so that it can be opened and closed effortlessly and with good control over the flow.... This would be CRITICAL for the design to be used without a regulator, of course.... I hope Ninja address this issue on their new fill station.... Since it's only "on paper" at the moment, I thought it might be a good time to mention it....
Bob
If one wants fine control of a fill to a setpoint or air flow rate, this is not the reg/valve for them. This isn't a huge criticism, but it is more of a question: When I fill with my SCBA bottle from Joe Brancato, I have fine control such as you mention so I can get a slow fill without a rush of air into my gun's cylinder. With the Ninja valve, when the valve opens, it OPENS, with a rush of air. Is the sudden pressure increase a bad thing for the receiving cylinder? Because I primarily use my Ninja bottle for tethering, to prevent a sudden pressure equalization, I usually fill my gun to the regulated pressure of the bottle with my Great White (and it's more controllable flow rate) so that there is very little air transfer when the Ninja valve opens. If I were to use the Ninja rig in the field, I could not do that. Thoughts on the sudden pressure changes and their impact on safety?
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If you are careful, you can avoid that sudden rush, but you have to open the valve VERY slowly.... at least that has been my experience.... The difference between closed and full flow is maybe 1/10th of a turn or less.... Using a much finer thread on the knob might help a lot.... and could ease the operating force once pressurized as well?....
Bob
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Fine threads would help a lot.
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Duly noted and thank you for the feedback. I'm hoping to incorporate this change once we start to develop the working prototype for version 2.
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The test will be, if you can use a regulated output at 3000 psi to fill a Disco to 2000 psi and do it easily, every time, without overfilling.... stopping at, say 1800 psi, and then creeping up on the fill point with ease by just cracking the valve.... If it's diffficult to stop (either too high an effort to turn the knob, or just too coarse an adjustment).... or if you can't add just a smidgen of air.... it's not sensitive enough to work for filling to less than the regulated pressure, IMO.... A good valve will allow you to add just 50 psi at a time....
Bob
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I have a ? Now that you've divulged a version 2 in the works, I'm wondering. For my amount of shooting my Mrod, this looks to be a good, not too costly a solution for me, However, would I end up with buyers remorse having not waited for V-2. Or .... is it something that will retro-fit. Can you tell us more about V-2 ? or is it hush, hush at this point ?
Hope this makes sense.
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I have a ? Now that you've divulged a version 2 in the works, I'm wondering. For my amount of shooting my Mrod, this looks to be a good, not too costly a solution for me, However, would I end up with buyers remorse having not waited for V-2. Or .... is it something that will retro-fit. Can you tell us more about V-2 ? or is it hush, hush at this point ?
Hope this makes sense.
Hi Nomobux,
Version 2 wont be released for at least another 10-12 months. The system will be something that can be retro-fit into an existing Ninja cylinder since the reg stem threads will be the same between version 1 and version 2. Without giving too much information, we're taking feedback we're receiving on our first version and implementing those changes into the 2nd version. The changes will include auto-bleed, on/off knob, and regulator in an all-in-one unit.
Thanks and let me know if you have any other questions. I'll be leaving the office early to drive up to Minnesota to play some paintball but I'll try and answer questions on here over the weekend if I have some time. If not, I'll be back in the office on Monday.
Thanks,
Rob
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I used my regulated 2000 output one for the first time today. It was very easy to control the fill rate, and I would think after trying two fills that you could stop at about any pressure in the gun you wanted.
Bill
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I used my regulated 2000 output one for the first time today. It was very easy to control the fill rate, and I would think after trying two fills that you could stop at about any pressure in the gun you wanted.
Bill
Hey Bill! Great to hear the system is working out well for you :) Thanks for the feedback