Mobile and lightweight HPA filling solution

[airpuffhunter]

thank you, excellent, I like the hand tigth solution

[NinjaPaintballRay]

Question for you guys -

1) Will anyone be attending the Flag City Toys That Shoot show in Findlay, OH on April 13th?  If so, I'll be attending and would like to get a chance to meet you guys in person.  We will be showing the air system, regulator, how to break it down and do maintenance on them, other bottle sizes and colors available, as well as some other items we're working on.   Btw, we're working on a microbore hose as well (10,000psi rated working pressure).  We have the machines to make the crimp fittings so Im hoping we'll have some time available to run them on the machines in about the next 2 months. 

2)  Would a compressor system, that could plug into a home dryer socket (3 prong), that could fill one of these 90/4500's in less than 8 minutes or a 3000psi Scuba tank in about 40 minutes, be something you guys would be interested in?  It would come with an auto shut off when it reaches 4500psi, electric start, and would cut your fill time down immensely.  The system would probably cost about $2500 and be something small and very portable and have very low maintenance.  I know this might be out of the price range of some home users but I know some of you guys have your own gun range in the backyard and will invite people to come out to shoot.  I was thinking this could be a good fit for airgun clubs, gun ranges, or even stores - places looking to do multiple air fills.  Do you guys like the idea of walking into your local airgun store and getting a fill right there on the spot? 

[BrainsB4Beauty]

Question for you guys -

1) Will anyone be attending the Flag City Toys That Shoot show in Findlay, OH on April 13th?  If so, I'll be attending and would like to get a chance to meet you guys in person.  We will be showing the air system, regulator, how to break it down and do maintenance on them, other bottle sizes and colors available, as well as some other items we're working on.   Btw, we're working on a microbore hose as well (10,000psi rated working pressure).  We have the machines to make the crimp fittings so Im hoping we'll have some time available to run them on the machines in about the next 2 months. 

2)  Would a compressor system, that could plug into a home dryer socket (3 prong), that could fill one of these 90/4500's in less than 8 minutes or a 3000psi Scuba tank in about 40 minutes, be something you guys would be interested in?  It would come with an auto shut off when it reaches 4500psi, electric start, and would cut your fill time down immensely.  The system would probably cost about $2500 and be something small and very portable and have very low maintenance.  I know this might be out of the price range of some home users but I know some of you guys have your own gun range in the backyard and will invite people to come out to shoot.  I was thinking this could be a good fit for airgun clubs, gun ranges, or even stores - places looking to do multiple air fills.  Do you guys like the idea of walking into your local airgun store and getting a fill right there on the spot?

Hey Rob,
I wanted to chime in too and add to the choir of folks thanking you for participating in the sport with the people of the sport.  As a business owner, seeing this level of involvement gives me a very good feeling about your enterprise, and I now know where I can safely spend my $.

I personally can't attend this show, but I am curious if you will attend anything in the Carolina's?  I have been a powder gun guy all my life, and have been bitten by this air gun bug pretty hard over the past two months.  Zero guns to 4, 2 being PCP guns.  So your solutions are very attractive to me.  Unfortunately I am still on the steep upward slope of the learning curve so I don't know how a 90 ci bottle translates to real world fill ups for my Marauder or Discovery.  I know Crosman has a fill up calculator, but have you guys tested with these guns and have any data on the number of real world fill ups? 

Also, I really like the idea of the pump, but that's out of my price range, for now.  Any chance you will look at competing with the Shoebox solution?  Honestly, if you had this bottle setup and a small (albeit slow) pump for $1000 total, that would *really* be the cats meow!


Again, thanks.  Glad to see you guys in here!
Nate

[rsterne]

Rob, I think the number of people in the market for a compressor that fast (120 CF/hr.) but that expensive ($2500) will be few.... I'm sure I spend more than that every year on my hobby, and I live a 3 hour round trip from the nearest air fill, but I wouldn't buy one at $2500.... If I didn't already have one of the original models (4 CF/hr.) I might consider the new Freedom 8 ShoeBox, but at $1100, even that is a stretch for me.... Funny, but if it was under $1000 it would be a no-brainer.... That's my personal opinion....

Having said that, I see a market for a compressor in between in performance, but priced UNDER $1500 including shipping within North America.... Realistically, nobody ever lets their air tank get below about 2000 psi if they have a compressor available (and then only if they shoot a Disco), most would top it up at just under 3000 psi, especially if they had a 4500 psi tank.... When you look at fill times, you need to think of a 90 CI 4500 psi tank as only needing about 5 CF to top it up.... and an 80 CF 3000 psi SCUBA tank as needing about 27 CF (from 2000) or 8 CF (from 2700).... An 88 CF 4500 psi SCBA tank would take 29 CF to top it up from 3000 psi.... Looking at the larger tanks as needing about 30 CF (maximum) to top them up, a Freedom 8 will do that in under 4 hours.... Your proposed compressor would do it in under 15 minutes.... Wouldn't something that took about an hour make sense?.... even 2 hours (15 CF/hr.)?.... At 15 CF/hr. we could top up a 90 CI tank in 20 minutes....

I would personally prefer something that ran on 110V instead of 220V, but I realize that at some point there just aren't enough watts available to do the job.... Have you looked into what is the highest rate you can achieve with a compressor that will run on a standard 15A-110V circuit breaker?.... Start with the available power and work backwards from there would be my suggestion....

Bob

[drewciferpike]

^ This

[NinjaPaintballRay]

Question for you guys -

1) Will anyone be attending the Flag City Toys That Shoot show in Findlay, OH on April 13th?  If so, I'll be attending and would like to get a chance to meet you guys in person.  We will be showing the air system, regulator, how to break it down and do maintenance on them, other bottle sizes and colors available, as well as some other items we're working on.   Btw, we're working on a microbore hose as well (10,000psi rated working pressure).  We have the machines to make the crimp fittings so Im hoping we'll have some time available to run them on the machines in about the next 2 months. 

2)  Would a compressor system, that could plug into a home dryer socket (3 prong), that could fill one of these 90/4500's in less than 8 minutes or a 3000psi Scuba tank in about 40 minutes, be something you guys would be interested in?  It would come with an auto shut off when it reaches 4500psi, electric start, and would cut your fill time down immensely.  The system would probably cost about $2500 and be something small and very portable and have very low maintenance.  I know this might be out of the price range of some home users but I know some of you guys have your own gun range in the backyard and will invite people to come out to shoot.  I was thinking this could be a good fit for airgun clubs, gun ranges, or even stores - places looking to do multiple air fills.  Do you guys like the idea of walking into your local airgun store and getting a fill right there on the spot?

Hey Rob,
I wanted to chime in too and add to the choir of folks thanking you for participating in the sport with the people of the sport.  As a business owner, seeing this level of involvement gives me a very good feeling about your enterprise, and I now know where I can safely spend my $.

I personally can't attend this show, but I am curious if you will attend anything in the Carolina's?  I have been a powder gun guy all my life, and have been bitten by this air gun bug pretty hard over the past two months.  Zero guns to 4, 2 being PCP guns.  So your solutions are very attractive to me.  Unfortunately I am still on the steep upward slope of the learning curve so I don't know how a 90 ci bottle translates to real world fill ups for my Marauder or Discovery.  I know Crosman has a fill up calculator, but have you guys tested with these guns and have any data on the number of real world fill ups? 

Also, I really like the idea of the pump, but that's out of my price range, for now.  Any chance you will look at competing with the Shoebox solution?  Honestly, if you had this bottle setup and a small (albeit slow) pump for $1000 total, that would *really* be the cats meow!


Again, thanks.  Glad to see you guys in here!
Nate

Hi Nate,

Thanks for stopping by.  Im not sure if I'll be able to make it to any other shows but its a possibility.  We'll have to see how things go out in Findlay first.

No, we're not looking to compete with Tom's solution. His is for the home user whereas ours is geared more towards a gun store that might be looking at starting to offer fills in their store, gun ranges, and gun clubs.  The shoebox seems to work good, albeit a little slow, but its priced low enough to make it a viable but a bit expensive solution.  I might end up bringing a compressor with to see what people think.  Its small and very low maintenance.  I'll see what we can do about bringing one out there and see if we can get some pictures posted after the show.

Rob, I think the number of people in the market for a compressor that fast (120 CF/hr.) but that expensive ($2500) will be few.... I'm sure I spend more than that every year on my hobby, and I live a 3 hour round trip from the nearest air fill, but I wouldn't buy one at $2500.... If I didn't already have one of the original models (4 CF/hr.) I might consider the new Freedom 8 ShoeBox, but at $1100, even that is a stretch for me.... Funny, but if it was under $1000 it would be a no-brainer.... That's my personal opinion....

Having said that, I see a market for a compressor in between in performance, but priced UNDER $1500 including shipping within North America.... Realistically, nobody ever lets their air tank get below about 2000 psi if they have a compressor available (and then only if they shoot a Disco), most would top it up at just under 3000 psi, especially if they had a 4500 psi tank.... When you look at fill times, you need to think of a 90 CI 4500 psi tank as only needing about 5 CF to top it up.... and an 80 CF 3000 psi SCUBA tank as needing about 27 CF (from 2000) or 8 CF (from 2700).... An 88 CF 4500 psi SCBA tank would take 29 CF to top it up from 3000 psi.... Looking at the larger tanks as needing about 30 CF (maximum) to top them up, a Freedom 8 will do that in under 4 hours.... Your proposed compressor would do it in under 15 minutes.... Wouldn't something that took about an hour make sense?.... even 2 hours (15 CF/hr.)?.... At 15 CF/hr. we could top up a 90 CI tank in 20 minutes....

I would personally prefer something that ran on 110V instead of 220V, but I realize that at some point there just aren't enough watts available to do the job.... Have you looked into what is the highest rate you can achieve with a compressor that will run on a standard 15A-110V circuit breaker?.... Start with the available power and work backwards from there would be my suggestion....

Bob

Very difficult to do at that price point. We have yet to find a supplier anywhere in the world that can get us a compressor that costs low enough for us to import, pay the duties/taxes on, and resell.  If we manufactured the compressor itself, we might be able to get down that low but its not something we'll ever get into manufacturing.  I think at the $1500 price range, its wishful thinking at this time.  I'll keep you guys updated if we do come across anything though.  Thanks again, Bob.  Hope you're having a great weekend.

[chodgmanjr]

 the pre order page for these setups is now up at pyramid.  $299  seems quite complete.

[NinjaPaintballRay]

the pre order page for these setups is now up at pyramid.  $299  seems quite complete.

Good catch   Yes, sir.  The pre-order page is up and they will receive their first shipment next week.  $299.99 includes the cylinder, regulator, and the PCP Fill Station

[rsterne]

I should have waited, I paid that for my 90 CI tank and reg only, and it was set for 2500.... this before Ninja made this new setup....

Bob

[cherokeesteve]

I should have waited

Bob

Well, If misery loves company, I could've saved by waiting also. Picked up a 90ci 4500psi Ninja tank off of Amazon, but it had the standard paint ball regulator. Lucky enough to find a 3000psi output regulator and made up my own removal/install tool with a 1 1/16 deep socket I hadn't used in quite some time. I used a 1/2 inch carbide endmill to cut three of the slots, and a 3/4 inch carbide endmill to cut the clearance slot for the pressure dial. Big thanks to Rob from Ninja for posting the pics of the teflon block tool that they use. I just used what I had laying around.

[cherokeesteve]

Fits perfectly over and tightens nicely to the recommended 40 ft/lbs. Also, anyone in the south suburbs of Chicago, big thanks to 7 Paintball in Lockport, complete tank fill for 3 bucks!

[Pursang]

This tank really needs the "externally adjustable regulator" to allow fills from 2000-3300psi, and even higher with some of the new guns coming out. The 2900psi-only fill limits it's usefulness. Even guns like the Marauder can utilize different fill pressures depending on the power level. Fill pressure is part of a "tune" for a PCP airgun.

I wonder if Pyramyd will allow the use of coupons when the tank is in stock. I got 12% off on my Benjamin 90ci tank for a $365 shipped total.

[NinjaPaintballRay]

Fits perfectly over and tightens nicely to the recommended 40 ft/lbs. Also, anyone in the south suburbs of Chicago, big thanks to 7 Paintball in Lockport, complete tank fill for 3 bucks!

Very cool!  We tend to stay away from using anything metal to remove a regulator so we dont mark up the regulators when installing/removing them but you did a heckuva job on this metal version.  Very nice! 

I wish our insurance company would let us manufacture and sell this device.  I can't tell you how many times we get calls from people asking us to sell ours.  Unfortunately, we can't do to liability reasons.

I'll have to give John and the boys at 7 Paintball a call to thank them for taking care of you at a great price!  $3 a fill?!  Can't go wrong with that  

Pursang - I've brought this up to our owner and asked him how difficult it would be to come out with something externally adjusted at these pressures.  We have made externally adjustable regulators in the past but they were mostly two-stage regulators.  We used to make an inline, externally adjustable reg but it was only used to handle pressures up to 800psi.  I have a feeling if we played around with the design a bit and could find some bellevilles that will stay consistent in output over the course of altering pressures, it would be the "perfect" solution.  I'll keep on our guys about this project.

[cherokeesteve]

Very cool!  We tend to stay away from using anything metal to remove a regulator so we dont mark up the regulators when installing/removing them but you did a heckuva job on this metal version.  Very nice! 

I wish our insurance company would let us manufacture and sell this device.  I can't tell you how many times we get calls from people asking us to sell ours. 
[/quote]

I just wrapped up the contact points with masking tape. No marks, easily removed.

[Pursang]

Why not an on-off valve w/ bleeder  like most of us already use? That would also render it unusable for paintball.

[NinjaPaintballRay]

Why not an on-off valve w/ bleeder  like most of us already use? That would also render it unusable for paintball.

Hi Pursang.   We have already started looking at several different designs on the next version of our on/off.  I cant guarantee anything as we're looking at several designs but that is a feature we might be looking to build into the next version of this product.

[rsterne]

I'm not sure, but I think Pursang is referring to a non-regulated fill station design.... which would be like filling from a SCUBA/SCBA tank.... There is some merit to that approach, but also the danger of overfilling the gun when you "slip".... For safety, the best way to approach any non-regulated fill system is to have a very high quality needle valve (which is then easily damaged by overtightening).... OR (my choice) to use a restricting orifice immediately downstream of the on-off valve and before the output pressure gauge (a nice 1.5" liquid filled 100 psi increments would be nice), bleed valve, fill hose, Foster fitting and gun.... That orifice resticts the fill rate, and if the volume between it and the on-off valve is kept very small, allows for very precise, safe, and slow filling of a tank or gun.... It could be argued that it is actually safer than a regulator, as there are fewer parts to fail.... Cheaper, too !!!

Bob

[NinjaPaintballRay]

I'm not sure, but I think Pursang is referring to a non-regulated fill station design.... which would be like filling from a SCUBA/SCBA tank.... There is some merit to that approach, but also the danger of overfilling the gun when you "slip".... For safety, the best way to approach any non-regulated fill system is to have a very high quality needle valve (which is then easily damaged by overtightening).... OR (my choice) to use a restricting orifice immediately downstream of the on-off valve and before the output pressure gauge (a nice 1.5" liquid filled 100 psi increments would be nice), bleed valve, fill hose, Foster fitting and gun.... That orifice resticts the fill rate, and if the volume between it and the on-off valve is kept very small, allows for very precise, safe, and slow filling of a tank or gun.... It could be argued that it is actually safer than a regulator, as there are fewer parts to fail.... Cheaper, too !!!

Bob

We could come out with an unregulated version but then we would have something that is already on the market and offered by several companies.  Do you guys prefer to have it unregulated or regulated?  We assumed regulated would be the way to go to prevent someone from overfilling but if you guys are more comfortable using a non-regulated version, I can talk to our owner and see what we can do

[rsterne]

I guess I opened a can of worms, didn't I ? .... *LOL*

Regulated is nice, you set it up for your gun, crack the valve and fill it.... In theory, no guesswork, and goof-proof, unless the regulator bypasses... However, if you have guns with different fill pressures, you need different regulator settings (and a way to test that).... or a high enough one for the maximum you use and then try and stop sooner on the lower pressure guns.... That's not a bad solution I guess.... providing the valve gives you enough control to do that.... In my experience, the style valve that depresses the pin valve in the top of the regulator isn't controllable enough for that.... they are too hard to shut off, and they are really just ON or OFF....

Unregulated is simple, cheap, and reliable, but it DOES require the user to exercise care.... The shooter becomes the "regulator".... IMO, to make it as safe as possible, a restrictor as I mentioned above, is the answer.... Interestingly, it is NOT found in any of the commonly available fill stations (AFAIK).... The simple one that fits on a SCUBA tank relies on careful control of the valve on the tank to fill your gun without overfilling.... Fortunately, they are a pretty good, easily controlled valve.... Even so, if you are filling a small gun (like a short tubed carbine) it's easy to "slip" and overfill.... The big advantage, as I see it, is that you can fill ANY gun to any pressure right up to 4500 psi (from your 90 CI tank).... That would even allow topping up a high pressure big bore in the field (once or twice!)....

The minimum requirement for an unregulated system, IMO, is the following:

a male Foster with check-valve to fill the tank
a cheap 1" 5K-6K gauge to show tank pressure
an easy to operate and reliable valve for filling your gun
a restricting orifice immediately downstream of that valve - all else downstream of this
a good quality (1.5" liquid filled?), 5000 psi gauge with 100 psi increments to monitor output pressure
a bleed valve
a short braided hose - 12" OK
a female Foster fitting on the hose

This could all be built into a package not much larger than a regulator that screws directly into the top of a carbon fibre 4500 psi (or aluminum 3000 psi) tank.... Then you could supply either an unregulated or regulated system using most of the same parts....

I can't tell you which would be the most popular.... If you wish, Rob, you could set up a poll on the Forum and let people vote.... I carry a 48 CI / 3000 psi tank regulated to 2000 psi when hunting with my Disco based Carbine and it has tons of air for a week of hunting.... I love it for the simplicity and ease of use.... so I can certainly see the advantage to a regulated system.... On the other hand, I have a 90 CI / 4500 psi tank regulated to (currently) 2500 psi (soon to be 3000), but I can't use in on my Disco because the valve is not controllable enough to stop at 2000 psi.... On the other hand, once I bump it up to 3000, it will be perfect for all my other current PCPs.... So, I cover my needs with one of each.... On the other hand, I'm thinking of a big bore that needs 3500 psi.... so the problem will start all over again.... A reliable, 90 CI / 4500 psi tank with an unregulated but safely controlled output would do everything I want....

See the problem?....

Bob

[NinjaPaintballRay]

Our engineer thinks that trying to depress the activating pin on the top of our regulator might be tough to press down with a full 4500psi coming out.  This is something that we've noted though and will be looking at in the future.  We would much rather put out a product that has a set output pressure to ensure someone does not overfill and reduce that liability but I see how an unregulated system might be a better solution for users that have multiple guns with different fill requirements.

Thanks again, Bob.  I dont think our Engineer is going to get much sleep over the next year with all of the projects he's working on