Mobile and lightweight HPA filling solution

[NinjaPaintballRay]

John B - Thank you for that recommendation.  Do you guys feel that if we were to move the bleed valve closer to our regulator/cylinder and then maybe give you a fill line/fill whip with the proper fittings to connect it to the Quick Disconnect fitting on the bleed valve and have another Quick Disconnect on the other end of the line?  If so, what would be the ideal length of the line going from the bleed valve to the air cylinder on the gun?

For some people (small shops, groups, and smiths) a ~$2500 electric stand alone compressor would be ideal. I'd probably jump on one if I where looking at retiring or otherwise being able to shoot ALOT.

The compressor that feeds a shoebox kicks on less frequently than when using a nail gun regularly. Much less than when using die grinders or impact wrenches.

I was thinking the same thing.  I have a feeling if a lower cost, high output compressor were to be offered, it would probably be better suited for people that have either retired and looking to shoot a lot, ranges, as well as small shops and smiths.  At the price the compressor would need to be offered at, we dont know if its something the average home user would purchase.  We are still looking into this though

That is interesting about the drive source for the shoebox.  I think if Tom were to find a way to do a quicker fill with those, he might have a perfect product on his hands.

Rob,
No problem, and no worries... we're good ! Really !

  I never intended to paint a dark picture, and certainly not imply any negativity.
Thank you for recognizing that. I also recognized your honest desire to get real world feedback.
 That is what's most important when trying to bring a product to market. (I'm a small business owner too.)

Sure there are many options, and combinations that will work for some, and not so well for others.
 Some of them costing more than others.
 You have received some very valuable suggestions already. Yeah, I agree that the valve block should be moved closer to the cylinder.
In fact, (and if possible), could it be manufactured so that the cylinder simply mounts into the valve block ? i.e.- no hose between cylinder and block.
 AGers are generally the "tinkering type".
We actually ENJOY altering manufacturer's design's, and modifying products and equipment to our needs and preferences.
 (and those of us who walk on "the  Dark Side" are the very worst ! LOL!)

 The GTA is about as perfect a place you could come to, to get these types of suggestions and ideas.
Consider sending a unit or two on loan, to one of the Admins here on the GTA.
 I'm quite sure the guys who meet up at some of the "Fun Shoots", would be thrilled to test it out, and provide unbiased reviews.

Also consider your marketing strategies, and how to get the best exposure and recognition.
 Think about some things that we hold in high value and honorable gestures.
 WW programs, Youth programs, and Raffles come to mind.

I wish you the very best, and for your products great success.

Ron

Good morning, Ron.  Thanks again for the recommendations.  We have already started looking at airgun shows and Im speaking with our owner about attending Flag City Toys That Shoot.  After speaking with Dennis at Quackenbush and Boris at Pyramyd Air, they both highly recommended we go.  The show is booked with vendors but im speaking with the organizers to see if there's anything they can do to squeeze us in.  We're also looking at several other shows so hopefully we can start getting this product in front of people.  So far, this is the only Airgun related website that this has been listed on so you guys are the first in the world, besides the people that saw it at Shot Show, to see what we've developed.

I will speak to our owner about possibly sending out a sample.  I dont know if I can do this but its something I can ask.  I'll send an email to one of the mods this morning and see who would be the best person to send it to and then go from there.  It would be great to have someone do an actual review and give you guys some real world data from someone unbiased and not working for or with our company.

I agree on the comments about having the bleed valve closer to the tank, and just a hose leading to the gun.... In fact, a 1-piece assembly that screwed onto the regulator and incorporated the pin-valve control and a bleeder would be a nicer arrangement.... If it had an adjustable regulator and a GOOD gauge for the output pressure, it could then work for a variety of guns.... The other option is to eliminate the regulator completely, put in a flow restrictor and/or an easy to operate needle valve and just fill the gun manually to whatever pressure you want.... All you need is a way to attach to the tank (directly), a male Foster with check for filling the tank (and a 7.5K burst disc), a needle valve to regulate the flow rate (and/or a flow restrictor) with a good gauge (1.5" minimum with 100 psi increments, 3500 psi scale, like they use on hand pumps) on the downstream side, a bleed valve, (OK, a 3.5K burst disc for safety, surely they can be custom made) and a hose ending in a female Foster.... Most of us fill that way now from a SCUBA or SCBA tank, and there is something to be said for the simplicity and reliability of not having a regulator to fail.... In addition, there is no regulator to reset when changing from a 2000 psi Disco to a 3000 psi MRod, for example.... just stop filling at the appropriate pressure for the gun....

RE the compressor, I'm thinking that something in between a Freedom 8 Shoebox and a full blown SCUBA compressor (but without the need for breathable quality air) might be a better bet.... If you're trying to sell mostly to the guys running Paintball centers, who want to fill a bank of 300 CF tanks for refilling smaller ones, that's a whole different story.... A few airgun guys might be prepared to spend over $2000 to get 15 minute fills, I wouldn't, even though I live 3 hours away from the nearest SCUBA fill station.... I can live with my ShoeBox and a SCUBA tank (barely).... If it was possible to get a compressor that would put out 10-20 CF per hour at up to 4500 psi, and the price was more in the $1000-1500 range, then I'd be very interested.... A compressor doing 16 CF per hour could fill your 90CI tank / fill station in an hour from empty, and 20 minutes to top up from 3000 psi (or 35 min. from 2000).... It could top up an 88 CF SCBA tank from 3000 psi to 4500 in less than 2 hours.... I'm sure THAT would be plenty fast enough for 99% of airgunners.... and might well enhance the sale of your portable fill station....

Bob

Bob, thanks!  Im sending your recommendation along with the others to our owner this morning.  I like the idea you have in the first paragraph and after we release the current system, I would like to talk to him about modifying it using the method you describe below.  Since we manufacture our own burst disks and hold the patent on it, we  might be able to look into doing a 3.5k.  Not 100% on what we we need to do to get one made but its something we can definitely look into.

Great feedback on the compressor as well.  All valuable information.  Thanks again

[Mebits]

Thanks, Mark!  How many shots are you getting off of the 13ci/3000psi bottle with an output of 1100psi before you need to refill the cylinder? 

Hypothetically speaking, if someone came out with a cylinder that is similar in width to the 13ci/3000psi bottle or maybe slightly larger in diameter but also longer, would it be beneficial to you?  We're wondering if a slightly longer or larger aluminum bottle might be better or if there are any size/length restrictions which force you to use a smaller bottle.

I have a QB79 with one of the Ninja 13 ci tanks reg. ~850. The tank must be less than 2 inches to work without a adapter.
I fill to 2500 psi and refill at 1000 psi and get over 50 shots.

I am putting another one together (QB78) and am probably going to convert it from 12 gram carts. to HPA at 1100 psi so please don't increase the tank diameter.

I do not need larger capacity although I am sure some do. In fact if I could get a ~7 ci with a smaller diameter I probably would.
I am not going to be to far from my scuba tank at any given time.

Thanks for the reply.  I just had a meeting with our owner and Sales Manager about your guys' recommendations.  I dont think we'll be able to source a smaller cylinder (around 7ci with a 2" or smaller diameter) as the manufacturer we use here in the United States does not have something that small.  Being that it would be a very niche item, I dont know if we could justify spending the money to get the minimum quantity ordered to have them try and manufacturer it. 

Great recommendation though!  Keep em coming guys, we're all ears.

With my 3000psi tank, I fill it to there and take it down to 1300 and get about 65-70 good shots. I'm pleased with the shot count.

Would I want more? I *GUESS* but here's the thing: on the QB79, we're already heavy with a heavy barrel and the cylinder out front. I'd actually rather give up a few shots for a little less weight. I'll reiterate, the size issue is key. A bit less than 2" in diameter is imperative.

I do want to stress that I like the fit and finish on the regulator and cylinder. That 360' spin collar is very neat too. For those of us using your tanks in QB's it's a very useful trick.

While I have your attention, do you know of anyone who's making thin and lightweight (very key) covers for the 13ci cylinders? (camo might be nice).

Mark

[NinjaPaintballRay]

With my 3000psi tank, I fill it to there and take it down to 1300 and get about 65-70 good shots. I'm pleased with the shot count.

Would I want more? I *GUESS* but here's the thing: on the QB79, we're already heavy with a heavy barrel and the cylinder out front. I'd actually rather give up a few shots for a little less weight. I'll reiterate, the size issue is key. A bit less than 2" in diameter is imperative.

I do want to stress that I like the fit and finish on the regulator and cylinder. That 360' spin collar is very neat too. For those of us using your tanks in QB's it's a very useful trick.

While I have your attention, do you know of anyone who's making thin and lightweight (very key) covers for the 13ci cylinders? (camo might be nice).

Mark

Depending on how the air cylinder attaches to the actual gun, I wonder if there is a way to make a fitting that attaches on your gun and allows to place the bottle remotely somewhere.  We have a similar setup in paintball where we use an adapter where the bottle normally attaches to the paintball marker, runs a remote line (coiled line or a straight line) to a persons back.  The person would be wearing what we refer to as a Remote Pack which is usually a tactical vest looking device or a weight lifting belt device with a pouch on the back that a person would put an air cylinder into.  You would then attach the line to the regulator on the bottle sitting on on your back and run the line directly into your gun.  Just thinking outloud here....but I wonder if something like that would work

The finish on the airgun regulators will be a gold anodized color.  We want to make sure that there is absolutely no confusion when a customer has a gold airgun reg and a black paintball regulator.  We're getting them anodized now and I'll post some pictures once we get the bodies back and we fully assemble one   The 360 Twist Technology feature will only be offered in our Paintball regulators.  We use a c-clip and we're not sure how it will hold up at the higher pressures.  If there's enough requests, we may look at testing and trying to make it work.

In regards to a thin, lightweight cover for a 13ci, you may want to see if you can use whats called a "Neoprene CO2 Cover".  You just need to find one with the appropriate length to fit the 13ci bottle, which is usually about 9 1/8" from the top of the regulator to the bottom of the bottle.  Bottle length is 7" without the regulator.

[Mebits]

Thanks, Bob.

M

[NinjaPaintballRay]

Quick Update before I close up shop for the weekend.

1) We took your recommendations on how the PCP Fill station is configured and rearranged where the bleed valve and hoses connect.  I'll post some pictures to get your guys' input next week

2) We will make the PCP Fill Station smaller and make it look better, once we determine if the time and money it takes to reprogram our cnc machines will be worth it.  Since this is a new industry for us, we still need to test the market before investing a ton of money into re-engineering the products to make them smaller or "sexier" looking

I'll get you guys some more updates next week.  Take care and enjoy the weekend

[GadgetX]

If I had a local filling station for 4500 psi I would buy your product at $300.  Trouble is I do not use my gun but maybe once a week and buying a shoebox makes it an over $1000 product.  I will stick to a pair of 80 cf scuba tanks, and top off to 3000 psi for my M-Rod with a Hill pump.  If I already had a Shoebox I would be pre-ordering.  Good luck sounds like you will do good because you are open minded about your solution.

Mike

[NinjaPaintballRay]

If I had a local filling station for 4500 psi I would buy your product at $300.  Trouble is I do not use my gun but maybe once a week and buying a shoebox makes it an over $1000 product.  I will stick to a pair of 80 cf scuba tanks, and top off to 3000 psi for my M-Rod with a Hill pump.  If I already had a Shoebox I would be pre-ordering.  Good luck sounds like you will do good because you are open minded about your solution.

Mike

Thanks, Mike.  On your 80cf scuba tank, does the valve and regulator on top regulate the 4500psi in the cylinder down to 3000psi or whatever you set the output pressure to?

Reason I ask is that we have a solution you could attach to a large 4500psi rated SCBA bottle that could regulate the 4500psi in the bottle down to your desired output pressure, all the way down to about 500psi.  You would use a screw on top to set the output pressure so no matter what gun you have, you will be able to fill it to the recommended pressure coming from that guns manufacturer.

We're trying to come up with and offer an easier method of filling versus relying on a compressor that could take hours to fill a bottle or using a manual pump to top off the cylinders, that would also be comparable in price to what is currently on the market or what you guys are used to using.

[GadgetX]

My "non portable" solution is to use a pair of 80 cf Alum 3000 psi tanks.  Both serviced to 3000 psi ($6 ea), no one within 120 miles of me serviced to 4500 psi.  I use one tank to fill and the other to top off.  I run my M-rod to 2900 psi.  When the fill tank gets to 2500 I take it in for a top off fill to 3000 psi and rotate tanks.  If needed I top off M-Rod AG with a Hill pump.  Your solution is ideal compared to my "non portable".  As a member has already stated $1000 buys an AG or two. 

Mike

[NinjaPaintballRay]

My "non portable" solution is to use a pair of 80 cf Alum 3000 psi tanks.  Both serviced to 3000 psi ($6 ea), no one within 120 miles of me serviced to 4500 psi.  I use one tank to fill and the other to top off.  I run my M-rod to 2900 psi.  When the fill tank gets to 2500 I take it in for a top off fill to 3000 psi and rotate tanks.  If needed I top off M-Rod AG with a Hill pump.  Your solution is ideal compared to my "non portable".  As a member has already stated $1000 buys an AG or two. 

Mike

Ok, thanks for the info.  I dont think this will be the best solution for everyone out there, especially if you already have something that works for you, but for the guys looking for a new way to fill or dont mind spending the money on a fast and easy way to fill, then this might be a good fit.

We're still working on some other things behind the scenes and will hopefully release some info about them in the next few weeks.  Still hashing out some details on them

Thanks again for the feedback and hope everyone had a great weekend.

[GadgetX]

I just got notification that a local 4000 psi fill is possible if the tank is Hydro and VIP inspected.  Would this apply to you product.

Mike

[Sqrl Klr]

Rob you may already know this but just in case you don't, most pcp shooters do not completely fill their rifles and shoot them until empty. This is to avoid POI shift since the rifles hit the bulls eye best in pressure sweet spots. In my case I can fill my disco to 3k psi if I want to but it's accurate sweet spot is 1,400-1,000psi which is 2 mags/20 shots worth. I don't know how many refills I could get out of that tank starting from 1,000 and topping off at 1,400, maybe you can tell me, but I know it would be a lot more than 6 refills.

The typical disco sweet spot is around 1,800-1,200psi, and the typical mrod sweet spot if I remember right is around 2,200-1,700psi.

[NinjaPaintballRay]

I just got notification that a local 4000 psi fill is possible if the tank is Hydro and VIP inspected.  Would this apply to you product.

Mike

Yes.  Every bottle we sell would be in compliance.

All of our bottles come with DOT and TC certifications, meaning they can be used in any country that accepts those.  DOT is for the U.S. and TC is for Canada.  Many other countries accept these certifications as well but some countries are different (ie: Australia has its on third party certification process and countries that are part of the European Union require a PI certification).  All of our new bottles are in hydro and come with a total lifespan of 15 years.  Every 5 years, the bottle does need to be hydro tested to ensure the expansion rate of the cylinder does not exceed a set point.  The hydro tests and visual inspections are all services that we provide since we are also a certified Hydro Test Facility. 

[NinjaPaintballRay]

Rob you may already know this but just in case you don't, most pcp shooters do not completely fill their rifles and shoot them until empty. This is to avoid POI shift since the rifles hit the bulls eye best in pressure sweet spots. In my case I can fill my disco to 3k psi if I want to but it's accurate sweet spot is 1,400-1,000psi which is 2 mags/20 shots worth. I don't know how many refills I could get out of that tank starting from 1,000 and topping off at 1,400, maybe you can tell me, but I know it would be a lot more than 6 refills.

The typical disco sweet spot is around 1,800-1,200psi, and the typical mrod sweet spot if I remember right is around 2,200-1,700psi.

Hey Sqrl Klr, thanks for the info.  We understand that shooters will never drain their air cylinders on the guns to empty so with our 90ci/4500psi bottle solution, on a Benjamin Marauder and per the calculator supplied by rsterne (mod on gta), you should be able to get roughly 6 full fills, once you hit the pressure Benjamin recommends you refill at to maintain a consistent velocity.  I'll see if I can find the link and post it to you so you can calculate how many fills you should be able to get with our system and your particular air cylinder. 

Fill Calculator Link: http://www.calc.sikes.us/2/index.php

[drewciferpike]

Depending on how the air cylinder attaches to the actual gun, I wonder if there is a way to make a fitting that attaches on your gun and allows to place the bottle remotely somewhere.  We have a similar setup in paintball where we use an adapter where the bottle normally attaches to the paintball marker, runs a remote line (coiled line or a straight line) to a persons back.  The person would be wearing what we refer to as a Remote Pack which is usually a tactical vest looking device or a weight lifting belt device with a pouch on the back that a person would put an air cylinder into.  You would then attach the line to the regulator on the bottle sitting on on your back and run the line directly into your gun.  Just thinking outloud here....but I wonder if something like that would work

I'm coming into this discussion rather late because I just started researching HPA conversions. I'm going to be buying a QB79 for my father, and I'll be converting it. A LOT of people seem to turn to your 13 ci bottles for quick-and-easy conversion (and I'm interested in the 1100 psi reg, as that's safe with the stock rifle), so I'll also state that any small(er) bottles you produce will always have buyers in the airgun community if the OD of the bottle is less than 2"--though a bottle that's too long will be a problem, too.

This leads into my response to your quoted reply: My father (and eventually me, to be honest; after doing all this research, I _have_ to buy my own QB79 and convert it) will be using this rifle to hunt. Based on how I and my father hunt, a tethered bottle would be ungainly and not very practical for field use with a rifle. I can definitely see a tethered option being used with a pistol, though. Much like paintball, the way the gun is held while moving and firing determines what can hang off of it without getting in the way. For us, it would be based on stalking, going to and from prone, etc. You can find a lot of shooters that tether tanks for bench shooting, though.

Just my $0.02... and thanks for stopping by and bouncing ideas back and forth! The folks on this forum are the repository of more info than you could ever hope to use, so definitely don't be shy, Rob...

[GadgetX]

OK.  Sign me up.  Send me a message with the details on how to order.

Mike

[NinjaPaintballRay]

Depending on how the air cylinder attaches to the actual gun, I wonder if there is a way to make a fitting that attaches on your gun and allows to place the bottle remotely somewhere.  We have a similar setup in paintball where we use an adapter where the bottle normally attaches to the paintball marker, runs a remote line (coiled line or a straight line) to a persons back.  The person would be wearing what we refer to as a Remote Pack which is usually a tactical vest looking device or a weight lifting belt device with a pouch on the back that a person would put an air cylinder into.  You would then attach the line to the regulator on the bottle sitting on on your back and run the line directly into your gun.  Just thinking outloud here....but I wonder if something like that would work

I'm coming into this discussion rather late because I just started researching HPA conversions. I'm going to be buying a QB79 for my father, and I'll be converting it. A LOT of people seem to turn to your 13 ci bottles for quick-and-easy conversion (and I'm interested in the 1100 psi reg, as that's safe with the stock rifle), so I'll also state that any small(er) bottles you produce will always have buyers in the airgun community if the OD of the bottle is less than 2"--though a bottle that's too long will be a problem, too.

This leads into my response to your quoted reply: My father (and eventually me, to be honest; after doing all this research, I _have_ to buy my own QB79 and convert it) will be using this rifle to hunt. Based on how I and my father hunt, a tethered bottle would be ungainly and not very practical for field use with a rifle. I can definitely see a tethered option being used with a pistol, though. Much like paintball, the way the gun is held while moving and firing determines what can hang off of it without getting in the way. For us, it would be based on stalking, going to and from prone, etc. You can find a lot of shooters that tether tanks for bench shooting, though.

Just my $0.02... and thanks for stopping by and bouncing ideas back and forth! The folks on this forum are the repository of more info than you could ever hope to use, so definitely don't be shy, Rob...

Hi Drew.  Thanks for your input!  I couldnt see people wanting to tether a line directly to a bottle either, especially when aim is very important.  The added weight of having to keep a line attached at all times would just not be practical for a majority of you guys; unless (like you mentioned), you're bench shooting.

The option we give you will not need to be attached to your gun at all times.  Its just a device that you can attach whenever you need to refill the air cylinder on your gun.  Being that the system only weighs about 5lbs or so, its very portable.  Put it in a bag or backpack, carry it to the desired location, shoot until you need to refill, pull out the system, attach it to the cylinder, fill the air cylinder on your gun, and shoot some more.  Once its filled, you can put the system back in your bag or backpack until youre ready to use it again.

This is not the same type of setup as a Remote System in paintball, which is when we put a bottle in a small pouch on the small of our back and run an air line from the regulator directly into the paintball marker (gun) at all times.  Thanks and please let us know if you have any other input.   We would love to hear!

Will any of you guys be at the Flag City Toys That Shoot show in Findlay, OH on Saturday, April 13th, 2013?    Our company is inquiring about going to the event and if we do attend, it would be great to meet some of you guys in person.

[NinjaPaintballRay]

OK.  Sign me up.  Send me a message with the details on how to order.

Mike

The only thing we're waiting on right now is for our manual to be completed.  Once its finished, we can release the product.  Sorry to tease you guys with the pictures and all of this information but before we invest anymore resources to this project, we wanted to get your guys' input.  So far, input and feedback has been very positive so we're moving forward.  Hoping to have a manual in the next few weeks.

We're getting ready to test something else in the next few days.  If it works, i'll get you guys some information about it.  Another filling solution from Ninja

[simonwg905]

I'm interested in a 2000 dollars 4500psi pump .
Do u do what we called " boast pump" ?
Those that people used to boast a half use 4500psi tank from a full 3000psi tank.
Please send more info about ur company n products to me.
My e mail is     simonwg905@yahoo.com.hk
I am in air gun trade.

[drewciferpike]

The option we give you will not need to be attached to your gun at all times.  Its just a device that you can attach whenever you need to refill the air cylinder on your gun.  Being that the system only weighs about 5lbs or so, its very portable.  Put it in a bag or backpack, carry it to the desired location, shoot until you need to refill, pull out the system, attach it to the cylinder, fill the air cylinder on your gun, and shoot some more.  Once its filled, you can put the system back in your bag or backpack until youre ready to use it again.

Ah, sorry, I didn't understand that's what you were aiming for. So it would be an off-the-shelf portable filling station, i.e. a mini-SCUBA or -SCBA solution for use in the field? For hunting, I would definitely be interested in something like that, especially if it was ruggedized in such a way that I wouldn't have to worry about knocking gauges and fill nipples, etc. (especially if I could refill the tank with a manual pump, back at the truck or camp) I'm guessing this can already be done with available tanks and hardware, but an off-the-shelf solution that's competitively priced with a DIY portable-fill tank would be interesting.

[GadgetX]

OK.  Sign me up.  Send me a message with the details on how to order.

Mike

The only thing we're waiting on right now is for our manual to be completed.  Once its finished, we can release the product.  Sorry to tease you guys with the pictures and all of this information but before we invest anymore resources to this project, we wanted to get your guys' input.  So far, input and feedback has been very positive so we're moving forward.  Hoping to have a manual in the next few weeks.

We're getting ready to test something else in the next few days.  If it works, i'll get you guys some information about it.  Another filling solution from Ninja

I am patient, no worries...  I have spent enough in the last 2 weeks, a small break will be great!!

Mike