GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => European/Asian Air Gun Gates => German AirGun Gate => Topic started by: Kragman1 on December 10, 2023, 02:03:42 PM
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...how many of us are torn between Diana and Weihrauch?
I ask because I find myself increasingly leaning towards one over the other, and I don't know if it's just a subjective preference or if more exposure to both (I've bought one of each recently, neither purchase planned) has just shown me which manufacturer is "better". To be sure, I really like both.
I'm wondering if anyone out there has gone from being "a Diana guy" to Weihrauch, or from Weihrauch to Diana over time. And if so, why? Because if you have worked on many of both, and were influenced by what you found internally, I'd surely like to know that.
I'm just a driver, not a mechanic so, speaking for myself:
From the little D27 to the much bigger Diana's, I can appreciate the intention behind all of them and the good work that went into them. Especially the older ones like my D45.
Great stuff and at good prices, although there are a few product compromises that I wish Diana had never made. The plastic D460 sight design for example. Or the plastic end caps on the compression tubes.
On the plus side, they make good power for their weight, are satisfyingly accurate (or more) and most triggers are excellent. Even the T05 can be very nice, and that's the one I consider to be the least desireable. The barrel droop issue is somewhat offset by the performance of the scope rail - no chance to squeeze your comp tube out of round. And of course, droop can be dealt with.
The Weihrauchs of course have no trigger issues, although the Diana T06 triggers equal them in my book. Mine are all satisfyingly accurate (or more), so I see no advantage there. The relative weights of different rifles seems to be a wash too, as are general performance levels until you get to the Magnums. But the feel of quality for the Weihrauchs seems to be a solid step over the Diana's. And no disappointing plastic bits to spoil things either. I do wish the safeties were resettable.
The HW95s and 97s seem to be real standouts to me, but I have been lucky enough to shoot many Weihrauchs, and they all "do it" for me.
I have developed a preference for one maker.
For me it's Weihrauch by a nose, after a hard race.
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I find many of their offerings do not overlap. Weihrauch has alot of the low power offerings, whereas Diana starts at the EMS 34 (comparable to HW95) for power. Diana then continues on to higher power offerings that HW does not get up to. If we're talking explicitly german made springers, Diana only has a few on the market these days; 34 EMS, 48, 54, 460. HW has a much larger range. Then again the only guns that are power level comparable are the 34 EMS and the HW95. HW has a nicer fit and finish than Diana.
So at this point in time, it's more about what power level of platform are you after and what fit and finish do you desire? HW gun prices have risen significantly in the past year or two while Diana has maintained the same prices also.
Just an edit to add that also Diana sells side levers, HW does not. Diana sells the 54's unique recoil-less platform. So I really don't see the two being competitors in a model to model comparison. In a larger view of purchasing power of individuals interested in a spring piston air gun, they of course are.
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I find Diana gives "more bang for the buck". I buy for shooting not for pretty. Each has mechanical features over the other and the 34 EMS has solved most of what I consider shortcomings of the original 34 however in many ways Diana should have used an entirely different model number as few parts interchange. I personally feel their side levers are the best designed guns they've got. I've read the newer Weihrauch guns are not as good as they once were but I feel Diana suffers from the same malady. I'm not a fan of their plastic sights and the breech on newer Diana rifles is looser than one would desire as pellets must be firmly seated to prevent dropping out. Even so I'll stick with Diana but would be happy to discuss mechanical differences with anyone interested.
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Weihrauch = Elegant Accuracy ;).
Diana = Clunky Power ::).
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Just my opinion... Diana has not stayed true to what made them great.
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I sold my three Diana's two .22 - M48 & 460 and one .177 K98.
I still have my HW/Beeman's R7, Hw50, R9, 2-R1 and wish I still had the P1. ( If anyone wishes to part with theirs ).
The Diana's were all very nice and strong shooters, I just decided to clear out the inventory and sold the three here on GTA.
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Diana hands down for me.
Why ? I think it is the brand perception and the looks. Diana's look more slick to me, while Weihrauch looks more gross to me.
But also when it comes to the shotcycle out of the box, Diana wins to me. And I looove the T05 and T06 triggers.
Don't get me wrong. Weihrauchs are built to last forever too. But once you hear the spring buzz after the shot, it sounds soo cheap...
I have owned both and still have the Diana's.
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HW for me as I have 10 rifles and one pistol. I had three Diana springers and gave away my like new 48 as, fore me cocking wasn't fun and the younger guy I gave it to loves it. Diana are ok, I just like (love) the Hw line much better. Charles
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Diana's are great rifles, just not my ideal after handling a Weihrauch :D.
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I find Diana gives "more bang for the buck".
I personally feel their side levers are the best designed guns they've got.
x2
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My Diana 340 N-tec is everything+ that my Weihrauchs are.
But it cost 2X as much, but no tuning needed. While my HW's are all expensively tuned. ::)
-Y
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The presence of their excellent side cocking rifles does muddy the waters a bit. I haven't had much trigger time with my 48 and 54, but I like both very much. The 54, shooting 8.64 FTT'S at 25 yards, was seriously accurate during some informal shooting, and I had bought it as a broken/repair needed project gun. The 48 seems like a gem too.
Hopefully, cocking them won't feel goofy to me for much longer... 😁
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I've been very curious about those 340's for a long time Yogi. I'd trade my 350 NTEC for one I think, to someone looking for more power.
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I had a 48 & a 52 (1” longer stock).
Both T01
The triggers made me sell them.
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I like my T01 triggers plenty!
Rekords they are not, but I do like them.
I'm told that they can be made to shine, but mine are all in factory format.
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I've been very curious about those 340's for a long time Yogi. I'd trade my 350 NTEC for one I think, to someone looking for more power.
FWIW-I think the Diana 340 N-tec Compact Lexus(walnut hogsback stock), is one of the very nicest looking airguns. All the proportions are right and it just fits.
Why more companies do not make hogsback stocks if beyond me. ???
-Yogi
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They are good looking, that's for sure.
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Having lived for years without a Weihrauch in my expanding stash, I recently got one. It felt right to have one, since it's an iconic make with the strongest presence in the American and UK springer scene, which comprise the vast majority of springer online activity (the only springer community I take part in). That's not a global reality, however, and it has more to do with the retail environment and biased promotion than any inherent differences in quality between the last two standing German sportster springer makes.
In my local market, I can buy Diana springers from several dozen different vendors, but Weihrauchs only from three. On the used market, there are twice as many Dianas available as there are Weihrauchs. Dianas have always been more popular here. I don't feel deprived, as I'm more at home with the Dianas than the Weihrauchs.
Getting into quality spring guns after years and years with Gamos, my first was a HW, with much anticipation, based on recommendations gleaned off GTA, AGN etc. It was pretty much a disaster, from the cracks in the stock to the terrible shot cycle, to the inaccuracy, to the super-annoying safety, and topped with the fact that the gun with open sights was impossible to shoot with open sights. I felt cheated out of a substantial sum of money.
I'm a performance kinda guy. I doesn't comfort me one bit that a gun is made out of all metal parts, if the performance isn't there. And if the performance is there, I'm perfectly fine with sundry non-metal parts. If they did break on me, I would have a different view. But they don't. I also don't agree that Weihrauchs are better made than the competition. They have too many iffy surprises in them for that to be the case.
Weihrauchs just barely approach the manufacturer's output claim with the lightest available wadcutter pellets. Dianas actually shoot what the manufacturer claims, with high performance, high-BC hunting / FT pellets. There's the cheating vs. honest feeling again.
All in all, Weihrauch caters to the guys wanting a lightweight, low-to-mid-power gun topped with optics for easy, leisurely shooting experience. Diana caters more to the guys who want to test their limits with aggressive, high-performance guns that reach out with authority. It's not like there's a counterpart for the 350 Mag, 460 Mag, D48 or the D54 in the Weihrauch roster. (yeah yeah, 80 & 90 kinda sorta).
Both HW's and Dianas have pretty terrible shot cycles when new. My experience is, a HW that's shot 1 000 pellets still has a terrible shot cycle, whereas a Diana after 1 000 shots has smoothed out remarkably. To this day, I find it a ridiculous concession that after shelling 400 - 600 bucks for a German gun, you need to factor in a set of replacement innards bought overseas, to actually make the gun work well.
Weihrauch triggers are excellent as is. Diana triggers need adjusting bordering on voodoo to make them close to the Rekord. But they perform just fine. I would take a T01 or a T05 over the T06, though (and Gaylord agrees with me).
Weihrauchs have excellent barrels, provided they are not .22 cals, or the most useful caliber. Again, to me, the best bet to get an accurate barrel (I have little use for .177 cals) is to buy a Diana.
All that being said, I love Walthers the most, and would happily trade a bunch of Dianas and Weihrauchs for them. They got 'em right.
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I own several Diana’s and LOTS of Weihrauch and it’s not even close. HW has far better QC, parts quality, fit, finish and feel.
The Diana’s are accurate and powerful but several tiers below HW overall in my opinion. While folks will opine that HW guns “need” a tune all my Diana’s truly needed some kind of part fix, issue addressed out of the box before they were completely or safely shootable. (Anti bear traps not working, sights broken, missing parts, so much lube in the tube you felt it slosh/move/gum on cocking). The HW’s all worked and worked well out of the box except for one HW95 from way back that had a damaged piston seal.
So while I have sorted and do like my current Diana’s I won’t buy another. Now with most things in life I am a single data point so my experiences certainly cannot be taken in a vacuum.
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This debate will go on forever, they both have good and bad. Mostly it's a personal preference to our needs/abilities.
The only real issue between the two I feel I'd likee to bring up is Weihrauch in my opinion hasn't compromised on quality. They're guns are virtually the same as they were years ago minus a few improvements.
Diana, which I still appreciate and consider a standard for quality, has switched a few of they're parts for plastic to most likely cut costs. It's completely understandable but I still hate seeing it.
I must commend Weihrauch for holding out. I just hope they don't go out of business from higher production cost. That sentiment also goes for Diana and Air Arms as well. I think pcps are probably the biggest threat to springers. Obviously they'll still produce them just not as many which gives us less options.
Just my opinion.
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Glad to see someone give mention to AA even though the topic is German specific.
I'm not into heavy upper crust springers but if I were I'd have to take a long hard look at a TX200.
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" Diana, which I still appreciate and consider a standard for quality, has switched a few of they're parts for plastic to most likely cut costs. It's completely understandable but I still hate seeing it. "
This statement is a much better worded summation of how I feel. 👍
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All that being said, I love Walthers the most, and would happily trade a bunch of Dianas and Weihrauchs for them. They got 'em right.
I am glad that you're calling out the Walthers. I have shot the LGV, LGU and owned a Terrus (still regret selling it). Weihrauch is not even in the Shadow of a Walther. Btw. to me an airgun is more than a trigger, so don't call out the Rekord trigger pls. What about ergonomics, the Lother Walther barrels, the internals etc. Walther wins hands downs from Weihrauch.
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Guess who missed out on an early LGV earlier this year.... 🙄
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Maybe no secret that I shoot mostly the lighter HW springers, now, or when I get the craving for shooting small groups with a gun that gets your attention with snappy recoil, the FWB Sport. If Diana offered more in the lighter break barrel HW30/50 class, I'd take a look, but not much there. I've never had an interest in the huge Diana side levers because I'd need a golf cart to move them. Great guns - no arguments there - just too darn big for my shooting. The older I get, the more I question a 10 pound gun to shoot a 10 gram pellet. :)
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Maybe no secret that I shoot mostly the lighter HW springers, now, or when I get the craving for shooting small groups with a gun that gets your attention with snappy recoil, the FWB Sport. If Diana offered more in the lighter break barrel HW30/50 class, I'd take a look, but not much there. I've never had an interest in the huge Diana side levers because I'd need a golf cart to move them. Great guns - no arguments there - just too darn big for my shooting. The older I get, the more I question a 10 pound gun to shoot a 10 gr pellet. :)
I should add that I do still have a Diana RWS 45 made in 1987 and I really appreciate it and enjoy shooting it.
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...how many of us are torn between Diana and Weihrauch?
I ask because I find myself increasingly leaning towards one over the other, and I don't know if it's just a subjective preference or if more exposure to both (I've bought one of each recently, neither purchase planned) has just shown me which manufacturer is "better". To be sure, I really like both.
I'm wondering if anyone out there has gone from being "a Diana guy" to Weihrauch, or from Weihrauch to Diana over time. And if so, why? Because if you have worked on many of both, and were influenced by what you found internally, I'd surely like to know that.
I'm just a driver, not a mechanic so, speaking for myself:
From the little D27 to the much bigger Diana's, I can appreciate the intention behind all of them and the good work that went into them. Especially the older ones like my D45.
Great stuff and at good prices, although there are a few product compromises that I wish Diana had never made. The plastic D460 sight design for example. Or the plastic end caps on the compression tubes.
On the plus side, they make good power for their weight, are satisfyingly accurate (or more) and most triggers are excellent. Even the T05 can be very nice, and that's the one I consider to be the least desireable. The barrel droop issue is somewhat offset by the performance of the scope rail - no chance to squeeze your comp tube out of round. And of course, droop can be dealt with.
The Weihrauchs of course have no trigger issues, although the Diana T06 triggers equal them in my book. Mine are all satisfyingly accurate (or more), so I see no advantage there. The relative weights of different rifles seems to be a wash too, as are general performance levels until you get to the Magnums. But the feel of quality for the Weihrauchs seems to be a solid step over the Diana's. And no disappointing plastic bits to spoil things either. I do wish the safeties were resettable.
The HW95s and 97s seem to be real standouts to me, but I have been lucky enough to shoot many Weihrauchs, and they all "do it" for me.
I have developed a preference for one maker.
For me it's Weihrauch by a nose, after a hard race.
For me, both are better than good, and my preferences are dependant on the specific airgun, and even on how I feel that day.
For example, shooting a Diana 54 Air King is A LOT different than shooting a Weihrauch 95 or a Beeman R10. I have two Xisico XS-25 SFB air rifles, which are Chinese clones of the RWS 34 and are much easier to handle than the Diana 54 (or 48 or 52).
The same situation holds true for air pistols.
I've had to give up trying to decide which is better. Most brands have airguns that I like a lot, and other models that I'm just not interested in.
-W
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...how many of us are torn between Diana and Weihrauch?
I ask because I find myself increasingly leaning towards one over the other, and I don't know if it's just a subjective preference or if more exposure to both (I've bought one of each recently, neither purchase planned) has just shown me which manufacturer is "better". To be sure, I really like both.
I'm wondering if anyone out there has gone from being "a Diana guy" to Weihrauch, or from Weihrauch to Diana over time. And if so, why? Because if you have worked on many of both, and were influenced by what you found internally, I'd surely like to know that.
I'm just a driver, not a mechanic so, speaking for myself:
From the little D27 to the much bigger Diana's, I can appreciate the intention behind all of them and the good work that went into them. Especially the older ones like my D45.
Great stuff and at good prices, although there are a few product compromises that I wish Diana had never made. The plastic D460 sight design for example. Or the plastic end caps on the compression tubes.
On the plus side, they make good power for their weight, are satisfyingly accurate (or more) and most triggers are excellent. Even the T05 can be very nice, and that's the one I consider to be the least desireable. The barrel droop issue is somewhat offset by the performance of the scope rail - no chance to squeeze your comp tube out of round. And of course, droop can be dealt with.
The Weihrauchs of course have no trigger issues, although the Diana T06 triggers equal them in my book. Mine are all satisfyingly accurate (or more), so I see no advantage there. The relative weights of different rifles seems to be a wash too, as are general performance levels until you get to the Magnums. But the feel of quality for the Weihrauchs seems to be a solid step over the Diana's. And no disappointing plastic bits to spoil things either. I do wish the safeties were resettable.
The HW95s and 97s seem to be real standouts to me, but I have been lucky enough to shoot many Weihrauchs, and they all "do it" for me.
I have developed a preference for one maker.
For me it's Weihrauch by a nose, after a hard race.
For me, both are better than good, and my preferences are dependant on the specific airgun, and even on how I feel that day.
For example, shooting a Diana 54 Air King is A LOT different than shooting a Weihrauch 95 or a Beeman R10. I have two Xisico XS-25 SFB air rifles, which are Chinese clones of the RWS 34 and are much easier to handle than the Diana 54 (or 48 or 52).
The same situation holds true for air pistols.
I've had to give up trying to decide which is better. Most brands have airguns that I like a lot, and other models that I'm just not interested in.
-W
You got that right. Often times quality is on a gun to gun basis as opposed to brand to brand.
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We all love German "Sproingers". True.
But we need to admit that we are a very small and select group of people. Like archery with English Longbows or Steppe Recurves (Traditional archery), it is not for everyone. You need a special frame of mind (some would say masochistic streak) to really enjoy sproingers.
Will they die off? Nope, just like English Longbows and Steppe recurves. The good ones will come up in price as the market gets smaller, more selective and better educated. We are just beginning to see the seeds of the "thousand's of dollars handmade spring-gun", and that trend will continue.
The market for toys will always be there, but the power will be lower, the quality non-existent as will be the accuracy.
And, perhaps that will be the "re-birth" of the spring gun.
UMAREX would have kept the LGU and the LGV alive if they had been able to get their target price of $800 for each. FWB the same. The gun that COULD have saved the Walther Sport line (the Century Varmint), came along too late and with too little units to really make a difference. BTW, the Century Varmint is mechanically different from the Century.
HW has increased their prices, AA has increased their prices, DIANA simplified the manufacturing with the EMS system and so the prices are pretty stable. But core inflation, worldwide, has just begun to subside, which means that there is a "stress" built into the economic tectonics that will need to be released at some point in the future, and the way to release that is with an economic quake.
Just facts of life.
In the same way that some like blondes and some like brunettes, we all have different physiques, minds, needs and wants.
For specific purposes, certain models are very well suited. But another shooter may never need to perform that specific duty and so, that other shooter will like more one model over another.
As a gunsmith, I can make the DIANAS perform to the lower power levels and accuracy levels of HW's or AA's, with more ease than I can make HW's or AA"s perform to the power level and corresponding accuracy levels of a DIANA.
Calibers also matter. Walther, HW, AA are basically 0.177" designed guns for the European Market. DIANA mostly bases their designs on the 0.22" for the World market.
"We the People" of the USA are privileged in the sense that we have the opportunity to shoot all forms of the sport. From Plinking/Pesting to FT to Long Range, we do not have any limitations (yet). Other places are not so fortunate, either by law or by weather, limitations are imposed on the shooter.
Bugatti vs. McLaren vs. Lotus.... different strokes for different folks.
Thanks for all the candid opinions here, they are very valuable.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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We are getting some thoughtful and thought provoking responses to this thread. 👍
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I'm not the tuner or the "expert" most of you guys are...but I thoroughly enjoy my plinking and hunting/pesting with my German Air Rifles. I don't post much but spend a lot of time reading here and on other airgun forums. I started with a secondhand Diana 46...I actually prefer fixed barrels and love the side-cockers. I also have a 95 and recently picked up a like new 90 on a great deal. Even though I'm just a plinker and have other interest that takes up my time when I purchase I want quality. What I see in general is imo what we see in many areas of the world....the companies are cheaping out. If they have to do so to stay in business then I understand..it's better than not having them.
Most of my guns are meduim to higher power and I was in the market to purchase an HW50,..possibly HW30. I've read many great things about both. I've held off on that purchase due to the chance of having to bend a barrel first thing out of the box...I'm not a fan of the new stocks...or the bill-board's on them either....for my $$ HW has quite a few quality issues at the moment. I may would consider an 80 or 97...or another 48 in .177 or 460... but that wasn't really what I was after next. I loved the original Air King and own one in .22.....I wish it was still made. Also I wish the 52 was still in production. I would pay more to get the nicer gun...I have no complaints with my 48..but simply wish the nicer stuff was still being made if only in limited quantities. Given everything I read and have seen over the last several years I think the hay-day is over. I haven't done it yet but been thinking that for anything I really want I would just post up a wanted add for a nice used rifle when I was ready to purchase and be patient.
...and to the OP's original question...I like both brands and hope they both continue to be made. I've never had any problem with my Diana's. Of the ones I have the 46 and 48 get shot the most. As of late I would say I'm more disappointed in the HW's with the slide in quality I've seen posted by other shooters.
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We are getting some thoughtful and thought provoking responses to this thread. 👍
None more than Hector's. Most of the other were just blowing smoke... :-\
-Y
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Just my two cents, I like both Diana and Weihrauch brands. I do have brand model preferences, but comparing the brands themselves seems a moot point. Ex. I think the Diana 34 is the best model of the line up. The side levers don’t thrill me much and the 460 is a 350 underlever that is too strong for my taste. In the same light, the HW35 is a fav for me just as the 95 is ok but not the first springer I go to either. I will say that the weihrauch line up is far superior to Diana’s in model and style selection.
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I have to disagree with you Yogi, to some degree.
I think that Hectors response is very.on point, and it prompted me to leave my previous comment.
But I appreciate all the input, because it all helps to tell the story. Speaking for myself, I REALLY like my Diana's, but my best rifle is probably the 35e that John in PA tuned, or maybe my 77k. That doesn't mean that the HW's are automatically "better", but right now they are what I'm enjoying most.
I haven't had any problems with any of my HWs (luck?) Or my Diana's (luck?) but some of the cost savings which Diana has adopted get under my skin.
Using a single set screw to hold the entire (plastic!) front sight/lever retention unit in place on the barrel of my T06 460 is a joke. It does not do the job, and no one at M&G should have expected it to.
But it's also an outlier, and I DO appreciate the approach Diana has taken in their product development and and to hokd their prices in a reasonable place. Good example of how everything in life is a tradeoff.
Again, I am a sample size of one.
ps - I have had problems with my particular 460, but that rifle was a Pyramyd-sold refurb that was never actually refurbed. It showed up at my door not shooting anywhere near spec due to having 3 or 4 crushed pellets mashed in the workings, and blown seals.
I don't fault the rifle for being first abused by the previous owner, then neglected by whoever "refurbed" it. I kept it because I'd like to own a good 460 and I'm willing to deal with the problems. Someday down the road, it will be a sweet rifle. But it will also need fat pellets because lesser pellets drop out of the breech.
That and the front sight unit have really taken away from my appreciation of that model, which is a shame.
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,...........I'm not sure who's blowing smoke? ??? OP asked a question on a forum and several people took the time to give their opinion and reply. Carry on gentlemen.
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Guys, lets try to lighten up on the personal attacks. We're all here for the same reasons.
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Guys, lets try to lighten up on the personal attacks. We're all here for the same reasons.
Hey Avator,
I don't think anyone is trying to make personal attacks ;).
Kragman just misinterpreted what Yogi said about Hector. Yogi was simply saying the only one giving good input WAS in fact Hector.
Now .... anyone who follows the German forum knows Yogi has a penchant for exaggeration or blowing smoke himself - it's his thing ............ 8).
Lastly, if I was Younger (;D) and Hunted, I would most likely be buying a Diana 350 or Diana 460. Both excellent guns with hunting power ..... and did I mention inexpensive vs. the market.
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I sold my three Diana's two .22 - M48 & 460 and one .177 K98.
I still have my HW/Beeman's R7, Hw50, R9, 2-R1 and wish I still had the P1. ( If anyone wishes to part with theirs ).
The Diana's were all very nice and strong shooters, I just decided to clear out the inventory and sold the three here on GTA.
Lastly, if I was Younger (;D) and Hunted, I would most likely be buying a Diana 350 or Diana 460. Both excellent guns with hunting power ..... and did I mention inexpensive vs. the market.
I do wish I would have kept the Diana 460 - one good gun to shoot .22
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Avatar, if your dog brings you your pellets to shoot when you get home from work, that dog should get bone.
Maybe a statue!
👍
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Been following and thinking about this for days. I own both brands, love the rifles I have. Whats been said previously is very true. There aren’t many models between the two brands that compare apples to apples. Which gun I select depends on what I’m doing. Standing off hand I’m going HW95 or 35E. Although the new to me Diana 45 is awfully nice. Springer bench rest shootout for my life? Diana 56 TH. Have been lucky with the quality of the four 2021-2022 HW we have as well as the 2018 HW35E. What frustrates me, and something Hector mentioned, is that quality has slipped across the board with just about everyone. Economics, newer untrained workforce, supply issues, host of reasons. I’m not sure it’s accurate to say there are more quality issues with HW than Diana. Quick search will reveal people happy with both and complaining about both. Far more aggravating with HW because you’re paying premium prices. I simply quit buying new guns about a year ago. When I compare my MK1 HW77 to my 2022 HW97K long I just shake my head. Wish they still built them that way. If you’re going to replace piston seal, spring, and guide anyway, why not get the benefit of the workmanship they employed 30-50 years or more ago? Thats where I finally ended up. My Diana’s range from 1968 to 2011-2012 I think for the 56 TH? All are excellent. Can’t speak for the newer rifles because I don’t own any. And that’s unlikely to change anytime soon. Just my .02.
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Hi Kirk,
I wasn't calling anyone out in particular. It was more of an attempt to cool things off a bit. Too often threads full of good information gets lost because of things going dark. We all want to feel like we made the right choices to accommodate our tastes and needs. Fact of the matter is, yours may be different from mine. Ain't nothing wrong about that.
Brian,
That dog always brings us something... a stick, a rock, a pine cone. Just whatever she happens to see first when she gets the urge. That day she happened to see that empty pellet tin that fell off the shooting bench. Good luck trying to get it away from her until she feels like dropping it.
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I have two air rifles that will put a tear in my eye when I give them away or sell them. My Weichrauch HW97KT 177 caliber and my HW95 in 22 caliber. The Diana's won't do that. I'll be 77 in a month and have a serious health issue so I probably will departing with those great airrifles in the near future.
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Sorry to hear that Terry. I'm sure someone is going to enjoy continuing to use them.
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I have two air rifles that will put a tear in my eye when I give them away or sell them. My Weichrauch HW97KT 177 caliber and my HW95 in 22 caliber. The Diana's won't do that. I'll be 77 in a month and have a serious health issue so I probably will departing with those great airrifles in the near future.
Hate to hear that. Praying for your health. Hopefully you can find them a good home.
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Hi Kirk,
I wasn't calling anyone out in particular. It was more of an attempt to cool things off a bit. Too often threads full of good information gets lost because of things going dark. We all want to feel like we made the right choices to accommodate our tastes and needs. Fact of the matter is, yours may be different from mine. Ain't nothing wrong about that.
Brian,
That dog always brings us something... a stick, a rock, a pine cone. Just whatever she happens to see first when she gets the urge. That day she happened to see that empty pellet tin that fell off the shooting bench. Good luck trying to get it away from her until she feels like dropping it.
Our neighbor's Newfondland always retrieved Boxer Turtles when out in the woods :o.
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We put the dogs out when we leave the house unless it's pouring rain or freezing. When we return home Boss greets us every single time with a gift. She is always first to get back in the house when the door is opened and we have to check her to make sure she is not bringing something in. At least she stopped eating our shoes. :o
Sorry for the derail.
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Using a single set screw to hold the entire (plastic!) front sight/lever retention unit in place on the barrel of my T06 460 is a joke. It does not do the job, and no one at M&G should have expected it to.
But it's also an outlier, and I DO appreciate the approach Diana has taken in their product development and and to hokd their prices in a reasonable place. Good example of how everything in life is a tradeoff.
Again, I am a sample size of one.
ps - I have had problems with my particular 460, but that rifle was a Pyramyd-sold refurb that was never actually refurbed. It showed up at my door not shooting anywhere near spec due to having 3 or 4 crushed pellets mashed in the workings, and blown seals.
I don't fault the rifle for being first abused by the previous owner, then neglected by whoever "refurbed" it. I kept it because I'd like to own a good 460 and I'm willing to deal with the problems. Someday down the road, it will be a sweet rifle. But it will also need fat pellets because lesser pellets drop out of the breech.
That and the front sight unit have really taken away from my appreciation of that model, which is a shame.
I am sorry that you have had to go through that, apologies on behalf of PA because I know they are mostly serious people.
About the screw that holds the front sight unit in place, I beg to differ.
That screw should be an extended tip screw; and is designed to go into a groove cut into the barrel. If yours does not have a groove, then we need to talk privately, and with some photos, we can probably get DIANA to exchange the gun. It is simply out of production specs and should be returned to the plant so that they pay more attention to these things.
The interference fit created by the protrusion of the screw into the groove is quite strong and will resist any tune in the 460 within the 25 ft-lbs max that is determined by the closing pins at the rear of the actions.
About the leade/chamber, the specs were drawn for the RWS pellets, which are all "fat headed". It was, and IS, a mistake. I've had rather "energetical" discussions with the technical CEO, and I have gotten nowhere. So, yes, that is a big issue because DIANA does not want to listen.
Now, it does not mean you cannot correct it. One of the advantages of the DIANA design is that you can shave ½ mm off the breech face and the sliding compression chamber will seal well. You can do that with a muzzle crowning tool (Brownell's) in an extension drive.
If you need help with that, just let me know.
I specifically avoided to try to make my comment an "HW vs DIANA" thread because IMHO they are so different as to not warrant comparison. It was also the reason why I chose Bugatti and McLaren and Lotus. To the casual observer they may seem similar or even equivalent, to the knowledgeable user they are very different.
In any case, let me know if you need help with that 460.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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I specifically avoided to try to make my comment an "HW vs DIANA" thread because IMHO they are so different as to not warrant comparison. It was also the reason why I chose Bugatti and McLaren and Lotus. To the casual observer they may seem similar or even equivalent, to the knowledgeable user they are very different.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
I think a closer comparison could be Ford (D) vs. Ferrari (HW).
The irony is HW sell 3x as many a D.
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I specifically avoided to try to make my comment an "HW vs DIANA" thread because IMHO they are so different as to not warrant comparison. It was also the reason why I chose Bugatti and McLaren and Lotus. To the casual observer they may seem similar or even equivalent, to the knowledgeable user they are very different.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
I think a closer comparison could be Ford (D) vs. Ferrari (HW).
The irony is HW sell 3x as many a D.
I'd take a GT40 over a Ferrari 330 P3 anyday. Not a Pinto vs a Dino... ;D
-Yogi
Look the money for all these companies are PCP's. I bet Weihrauch sells 3 times as many PCP's as springers. At higher prices too. FWB, SIG, Walther all left the market. We are lucky we get anything....
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To me it’s black and white. I’ve been involved for only 5 yrs. Nothing close to many of you. I don’t have even close the knowledge some of you have on airguns. I do know quality when I see it and use it. I’ve collected quite an arsenal in a few years. I have all the current models in the big 3 except for the HW57. Last winter I changed 15 spring sets and will do about the same this winter. I’ve gotten awesome support from different members which I appreciate to the nth degree.
Currently I think Air Arms is best, quality drips off these guns, not German, but worthy. Not my favorite.
I would have to go with Weihrauch next. Working on them was straight forward, and rewarding.
Diana 3rd as far as quality, goes, plastic. So sad, so close. Have 2-460’s, the front sights look like Cracker Jack designed them. Then on my K98, a 460, nice front sight, which I’m deadly on. Go figure.
I’m totally impressed with the accuracy of the Diana’s, which deliver the hardest blow of all. Bragging rights for sure.
I noticed on my 34, 350 and 460 premium have the steel breach.👍 Looks like a gun, keep going.
Personally I would prefer to pay a little more and ditch all the plastic.
Then in my eyes, Diana would be more of a contender.
The Diana’s are the newest of mine. My only rifle that broke down was a 460 premium. Older gun, bought second hand. Broke a spring. Replaced. Then same gun cocking arm, missing gusset broke. Winter job, soon.
I’ve never worked on my LGU or FWB 124 sports. My suspicion both these with give the others a run for the money. My LGU is amazing. I have a Rowan trigger and a spring going in. The Sport the only gun I have 2 identical. FWB is in a league of their own. The 300s is sweet as well the 65 pistol.
The LGV is in my sights. I actually e-mailed Walter’s and begged them to bring them back.
My opinion. Crow
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Just bought a lightly used HW30 in .177, and it is a sweetheart.
One more "check" for HW.
It will be fun to compare with my .22 cal D27 down the road.
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I think a closer comparison could be Ford (D) vs. Ferrari (HW).
The irony is HW sell 3x as many a D.
Would you be so kind as to point me to the source of that info?
Thanks!
HM
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I think a closer comparison could be Ford (D) vs. Ferrari (HW).
The irony is HW sell 3x as many a D.
[/quote]
The irony here is Ford sells more vehicles than Ferrari.
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I specifically avoided to try to make my comment an "HW vs DIANA" thread because IMHO they are so different as to not warrant comparison. It was also the reason why I chose Bugatti and McLaren and Lotus. To the casual observer they may seem similar or even equivalent, to the knowledgeable user they are very different.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
I think a closer comparison could be Ford (D) vs. Ferrari (HW).
The irony is HW sell 3x as many a D.
HW is more like a Volkswagen dude ;)
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I specifically avoided to try to make my comment an "HW vs DIANA" thread because IMHO they are so different as to not warrant comparison. It was also the reason why I chose Bugatti and McLaren and Lotus. To the casual observer they may seem similar or even equivalent, to the knowledgeable user they are very different.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
I think a closer comparison could be Ford (D) vs. Ferrari (HW).
The irony is HW sell 3x as many a D.
HW is more like a Volkswagen dude ;)
:P :o ::) :D ;) ;D 8)
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I think a closer comparison could be Ford (D) vs. Ferrari (HW).
The irony is HW sell 3x as many a D.
The irony here is Ford sells more vehicles than Ferrari.
No, the irony (which you may have missed) is the less costly, more powerful Diana is out-sold 3 to 1 by the more expensive Weihrauch :o.
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I think a closer comparison could be Ford (D) vs. Ferrari (HW).
The irony is HW sell 3x as many a D.
The irony here is Ford sells more vehicles than Ferrari.
No, the irony (which you may have missed) is the less costly, more powerful Diana is out-sold 3 to 1 by the more expensive Weihrauch :o.
A gentle reminder that I am still waiting for the source of that info.
HM
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I think a closer comparison could be Ford (D) vs. Ferrari (HW).
The irony is HW sell 3x as many a D.
The irony here is Ford sells more vehicles than Ferrari.
No, the irony (which you may have missed) is the less costly, more powerful Diana is out-sold 3 to 1 by the more expensive Weihrauch :o.
A gentle reminder that I am still waiting for the source of that info.
HM
;D ;D ;D
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Kirk I'm with you, my friend. I have owned many Dianas and many HW's I only own 1 Diana and have for many yrs, it's my 460mag in .22cal, the only reason I keep it is because of its power! other than that, I would sell it! but it is accurate and not pellet picky, is it in the same solar system in quality as an HW? not even close! sorry guys! I don't care what anybody says! I know what the truth is, I have taken many many of these gun's apart and worked on them and tuned them! their only selling point is their power! That's it! Do I like them yes, would I pick 1 over a HW NO!!! ::)
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Weihrauch do not have a stock that is anywhere near as nice as the stock on my Diana 340 N-tec.
The walnut Hogsback stock is gorgeous! With the possible exception of a few very special HW stocks from the 80's, theogback wins hands down!!!
I agree that the finish on my 340 N-tec is not as nice as Weihrauch's. But Weihrauch's blueing in pretty lame compared to either FWB or Air Arms beautiful black finish.
-Yogi
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Not seeing much Love for the FWB.
I have owned an R-9 a TX-200. Still have my R-10 and HW-98 ... Even a old Diana (Winchester)
But my FWB-124 deluxe is amazing!
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Strictly speaking of late model German spring piston guns, I think the GenII Feinwerkbau Sport stock is second to none in quality, craftsmanship, beauty of wood grain and fit and finish. To actually hold one in hand is a pleasure, and the pictures on the internet do not due it justice. Better than HW yes, better than Diana,…. Way better.
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Love for the FWB Sport? Count me in. I was even mildly accused of being an FWB Sport enabler at one time. :)
I have two of them and I love them even more when I shoot them. Oh, the new Sport has its share of critics and some design shortcomings, but all is forgiven when I get the groups the Sport lets me shoot.
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I do not think I am being deliberately perverse. Note that the title of this thread ends with BUT.
I have four German springers. My Diana 34 Compact is nice but nothing to get excited about. I would say ok but not enough power.. My HW95 is very good but not really powerful enough at 12.6 ft/lbs. It is everything that it is meant to be. My HW77 is not that good. Accurate enough. Not enough power. Heavy and an awkward loading breach. Then there is my HW35S. It has a sliding barrel latch on the port side, a thumb hole stock that is not very nice and not much power. They all have the Record triggers and the irksome automatic cross bolt safety catch.
For my purposes my Gamos are just as accurate and more convenient for rabbiting and they don't cost nearly as much. They are more powerful and do the job very well but all had to be fettled to get them where they are. One of them at 10 ft/lbs leaves all the rest behind for accuracy.
Maybe a square peg syndrome.
PS. I have no intention of parting with any of my German springers. Maybe one day I will appreciate them more.
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Weihrauch do not have a stock that is anywhere near as nice as the stock on my Diana 340 N-tec.
The walnut Hogsback stock is gorgeous! With the possible exception of a few very special HW stocks from the 80's, theogback wins hands down!!!
I agree that the finish on my 340 N-tec is not as nice as Weihrauch's. But Weihrauch's blueing in pretty lame compared to either FWB or Air Arms beautiful black finish.
-Yogi
I always thought Weihrauch's blueing was as equal to most powder burners, which is perfect.
AA's are simply overdone .... kinda like a pretty boy ....... I was always worried about scratching mine when tuning it ........... ::)
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Know it was said already, but the Diana sidelevers are somethin special.
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Know it was said already, but the Diana sidelevers are somethin special.
Yeah Rion,
At this point I think were yacking about do we prefer, Blonds, Brunettes or Redheads.
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Know it was said already, but the Diana sidelevers are somethin special.
Yeah Rion,
At this point I think were yacking about do we prefer, Blonds, Brunettes or Redheads.
[chuckling]
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Yes, a bit.
But the original question was how many of us have switched allegiances once we got to really know our German springers. Or even, have we changed our opinions about a particular brand.
Also, those Diana side levers are really something...! 👍
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My first air rifles were Diana’s a 24 and then a custom 34. They were my choice due to local availability back before we could just google. I enjoyed them but yes never did like the plastic bits. My older brother was a wealth of info and a collector so I got airguns from him mostly. My first Weihrauch was a 95 which I still have. I thought the quality was so much better without the plastic bits and Record trigger. A couple years back I picked up a 34 classic TO5 for a steal. Like the other Dianas it has those plastic bits but you know what else does just about every semi auto shotgun out there. So it really doesn’t bother me now. After a fair amount of adjustment I got the trigger set at a decent pull. I shoot it with peep sights and also replaced the front sight for an HW one.
I do prefer Weihrach though as I find the chambers a bit shorter and the K length barrels make it a bit more mid weighted and balance better for me but thats a personal thing. Quality though I would say is about the same for examples I have come across.
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Yes, a bit.
But the original question was how many of us have switched allegiances once we got to really know our German Springers. Or even, have we changed our opinions about a particular brand.
Also, those Diana side levers are really something...! 👍
OK then,
I've tuned maybe 35+ Springers and believe HW's are my favorite, with AA having a more improved/modern design.
However, AA falls short as often as HW does in internal finishing of that design. I also shoot Spring guns weighing 7.5 lbs or less the most - by far 8).
HW's fit me best as their more streamlined; I don't especially care for Under-levers .... also AA guns are over polished (more for "Just Look At" it crowd).
If excessive bling is important to you - get an AA - however, it has to be an Under-lever ....... and your likely paying $200 more for the bling.
At a pawn shop, I picked up a D34 and shouldered it - I really disliked the bulky feel of that gun. Not subtle at all .... more Hatsan like (crude/powerful).
Never owned a FWB or Sidelever gun ... so can't say, but we're talking more weight/fiddling to shoot issues ..... that I have learned NOT to like :P.
Lastly, I'm still tempted to by a FWB Sport as a number of respected members here love it (NCG - that's you).
However, would likely make a metal trigger guard, + Leary about getting replacement parts .........
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I have owned just about every air gun worth having, except the NEW FWB sport and the HW57, Tom don't hate me, their several reasons the FWB is off my list, their weight plastic trigger guard and the angled barrel block and parts availability, the 57 breech block!!! as I have said before for what you get in buying an HW rifle their hard to beat for the money! and I like you kirk they fit me like a glove! ;)
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I have owned just about every air gun worth having, except the NEW FWB sport and the HW57, Tom don't hate me, their several reasons the FWB is off my list, their weight plastic trigger guard and the angled barrel block and parts availability, the 57 breech block!!! as I have said before for what you get in buying an HW rifle their hard to beat for the money! and I like you Kirk they fit me like a glove! ;)
Yeah Mark,
I've owned a bunch of different brand Springers, but once I find a brand, clearly best (for me), I get rid of all the ones with deal breaking issues.
I mean, why keep 'em if you always thinking about what you don't like about them.
I have enough trouble holding on to my HW80's - as their too heavy for (MY) everyday shooting .... however, they're the most accurate at 50+ yards and pack a wallop.
Since, I've owned my RAW PCP's it's hard to shooting anything lesser quality unless it has a unique charm. Thank God my BSA R10 and QB's do offer other things than absolute precision - I've sold everything else.
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I somehow only considered break barrels in the topic.
But if we are talking ALL springers... My thoughts again turn to FWB.
The 300S side lever I have is a simply awesome machine.
No wonder they were used in the Olympics dack in the day.
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This all makes me think I need a Diana side lever.
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This all makes me think I need a Diana side lever.
-> But such a need is contrary to your GTA member ID ;).
While being an excellent gun, I would not consider a Diana side lever to be a low powered plinker ::).
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This all makes me think I need a Diana side lever.
-> But such a need is contrary to your GTA member ID ;).
While being an excellent gun, I would not consider a Diana side lever to be a low powered plinker ::).
He's no longer after low powered plinkers if you look at his thread where he's attempting to shoot an hw97 at a target 215 yards away, still waiting to see the results on that! ::)
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Yes, a bit.
But the original question was how many of us have switched allegiances once we got to really know our German springers. Or even, have we changed our opinions about a particular brand.
Also, those Diana side levers are really something...! 👍
Diana side levers really are nice, they just take up too much valuable real estate in the safe.
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I somehow only considered break barrels in the topic.
But if we are talking ALL springers... My thoughts again turn to FWB.
The 300S side lever I have is a simply awesome machine.
No wonder they were used in the Olympics dack in the day.
Yes Hoosier,
If you're looking for a 10 Meter airgun, no one can dispute the FWB 300S as being an awesome trailblazer ;).
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Never said I was attempting 200+ yards, just wondering if it was possible...
Turns out it is -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpxPmWMJ9Z8
(Not my video)
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There's a Diana side lever up for $300 in the classifieds now.
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What I didn't see is much talk about the consideration of "non-gun" related issues.
I've never seen an fwb or hw, but I have a d34. At the time it could have just as easily been a Benjamin 397 for $80 in 2015. Regretted that choce ever since.
Diana CHOSE to maintain a relationship with RWS, which from what I understand never cared much for integrity or honor where warranty is concerned. I've brought that up directly with Diana and they don't even care enough to respond.
And the gun? My Daisy 880 has been far less of a problem, but at least Daisy had the integrity to honor a warranty.
Nothing but nightmare stories online when there's a problem with a Diana airgun. Not to take anything away from those of you who didn't have issues, or worked on them yourself, but I associate Diana with products better left alone. From what I've read, that does not seem to be the case with hw.
So switch to HW, heck, switch to Daisy for that matter. Better quality, better accuracy, and they don't ignore you if there's a warranty issue.
Just my $.02
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Yeah, I never thought of warranty issues much before.
For better or worse, I'm the warranty :-\.
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Same here Kirk, I'm my own warranty repair man! as long as a gun is good out of the box? I can fix any issues that that may a raise. which is why?
people like us try to speak out with our knowledge and experience of owing air guns and working on and tuning them, we see the good bad and the ugly of them, to know where our money is best spent when buying these rifles for our enjoyment 8)
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Same here Kirk, I'm my own warranty repair man! as long as a gun is good out of the box? I can fix any issues that that may a raise. which is why?
people like us try to speak out with our knowledge and experience of owing air guns and working on and tuning them, we see the good bad and the ugly of them, to know where our money is best spent when buying these rifles for our enjoyment 8)
You know Mark,
I can understand why old farts like us have slowed down on our GTA posting ::).
In many cases, I feel like I'm talking to my 18 year old Son - who has no idea, even though he has good/honorable intentions.
They don't understand and we grow inpatient - sometimes a food fight ensues.
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Same here Kirk, I'm my own warranty repair man! as long as a gun is good out of the box? I can fix any issues that that may a raise. which is why?
people like us try to speak out with our knowledge and experience of owing air guns and working on and tuning them, we see the good bad and the ugly of them, to know where our money is best spent when buying these rifles for our enjoyment 8)
You know Mark,
I can understand why old farts like us have slowed down on our GTA posting ::).
In many cases, I feel like I'm talking to my 18 year old Son - who has no idea, even though he has good/honorable intentions.
They don't understand and we grow inpatient - sometimes a food fight ensues.
I don't think those characteristics are restricted entirely to the youngers. :-\
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Yeah Avator,
As a Policemen of the GTA Republic, I'm sure you're painfully aware of this :P.
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GTA is the best go to for help fixing stuff yourself. And with Diana stuff, we have Hector to help as liaison expert too.
Thankfully, that's the case as I agree with and have experienced the RWS "warranty" demoralization.
Side question, what does warranty with HW guns look like? Brooke's gun is an r7 I got here in the classifieds and I recently got a p1 (that is awesome btw) here. Neither of these are warranty items given how I got them. I have no idea what the HW warranty situation is... or the rebranded Beeman HW situation is.
I ask out of curiosity. I also think about getting an HW 50 down the line now and then as the r7 was too small for me but a 50 might be just right. My Diana EMS is a joy and so I might not ever pull the trigger on a 50, but I also might eventually.
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Yes, Diana folks should be very THANKFUL for Hector Medina's excellent GTA contributions ;).
From Weihrauch's website:
Weihrauch warranty is 1 year from date of purchase. We cannot accept repairs direct. Please contact your local dealer who will send us the gun on your behalf.
This likely does not cover 2nd party purchases within the first year ..... just guessing.
https://weihrauch.co.uk/contact-us
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Yeah Avator,
As a Policemen of the GTA Republic, I'm sure you're painfully aware of this :P.
Painfully is a good word choice. ;)
However I'm not sure Republic fits.
"a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch."
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I took delivery of a new D460 (.177) just before Christmas, my first and only Diana.
I also own a HW77k (.22) and a HW97k (.177), both of which were 2nd hand when I purchased them, but in very good to excellent condition.
I have to agree with the OP, for me the Weihrauch's feel like the next step up. I haven't chronographed the D460 yet but I feel like it is performing at the standard one would expect from this rifle. Some spring twang is there but it's not too bad. The wood work is good but it feels a little flimsy in certain places. For example there's not much wood between the receiver and the cocking lock and that area definitely feels like a weak point. The HWs on the other hand feel absolutely rock solid in every way.
Price wise the D460 is about 25% cheaper than a HW97 here in Aus. For me I feel the step up in quality is worth the extra money, but not everyone will feel the same way. Functionally, the D460 is a fine rifle and I will get a lot of enjoyment out of it, but the Weihrauch's are better IMO and my favourite is the HW77.
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About two years ago I received a HW97 and the cocking arm bearing release was frozen. It was fixed so fast under warranty. I hardly noticed it missing.
As far as which rifle is best. Just take both makes and do a tune to both. I’m no expert, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure which has the better parts. Crow
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About two years ago I received a HW97 and the cocking arm bearing release was frozen. It was fixed so fast under warranty. I hardly noticed it missing.
As far as which rifle is best. Just take both makes and do a tune to both. I’m no expert, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure which has the better parts. Crow
Hey Crow,
Never owned a Diana, but some visible parts are plastic, not sure how many more are.
Weihrauch has been using nylon/delrin spring guides for awhile now - they work well and are an upgrade from the metal (split) ones.
The newer, metal spring guide of the HW80S give the piston more momentum.........
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So what ?
A Glock, one of the most used service pistols, is fully build out of 'plastic'.
Synthetic or not, is not the question anymore as long as the synthetic or plastic parts are of good quality. From experience I can say that the Diana synthetic parts are of good quality / industry grade quality.
There is a benefit as well. And that is weight savings. The reason I have sold my 2x HW97k's has been their weight (and I am a tall, pretty strong guy).
I still own my Diana's. And they're built to last too.
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Yeah Trigger,
I sold my HW77/HW97 because they were just too heavy & fiddly -> beautiful guns though :D.
Keep in mind, the very best Diana's substantially out-weigh the HW77/HW97 (were talking D54/D56).
The D48/D460 and D350 are at most 8 ounces less.
Everything else is hand crafted in China ..............
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The diana ems changed my mind about synthetic stocks.
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FWIW-Diana's resettable safety is worlds better than Weihrauch's side nob. ;)
-Y
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FWIW-Diana's re-settable safety is worlds better than Weihrauch's side nob. ;)
-Y
Yeah, I haven't had to de-cock my Weihrauch's very often :D.
However, I've had many, many, many would be bulls-eyes interrupted by that darn safety :(.
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For nearly two years I shoot 1-2hours daily. I can’t ever remember trying to reset my safety. I turn off safety before I shoot and it’s over.
Today I shot my 350 mag. .22 cal. I name my springers and write down in bible, the name, “Killer”. It hits like a freight train with excellent accuracy. Doesn’t make it my favorite but I like it.
I have to make a confession. I put delron muzzle ends on my break barrels. They were made by SpiralGroove and I must say a quality product. In Canada silencers are illegal but I love the looks. What sells me is tomorrow it’s going to be 12F. and as long as there’s no wind I’ll shoot. Hanging on to the barrel is murder in the cold. The muzzle ends save the day, big time.
I have a few Diana’s that have such a cheap looking muzzle end. It’s simply embarrassing. They should get in contact with SpiralGroove. Crow
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For nearly two years I shoot 1-2hours daily. I can’t ever remember trying to reset my safety. I turn off safety before I shoot and it’s over.
Today I shot my 350 mag. .22 cal. I name my springers and write down in bible, the name, “Killer”. It hits like a freight train with excellent accuracy. Doesn’t make it my favorite but I like it.
I have to make a confession. I put delron muzzle ends on my break barrels. They were made by SpiralGroove and I must say a quality product. In Canada silencers are illegal but I love the looks. What sells me is tomorrow it’s going to be 12F. and as long as there’s no wind I’ll shoot. Hanging on to the barrel is murder in the cold. The muzzle ends save the day, big time.
I have a few Diana’s that have such a cheap looking muzzle end. It’s simply embarrassing. They should get in contact with SpiralGroove. Crow
Could you share some photos of these? Would be interested to see them
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I would gladly but don’t know how to show pics. Sorry Crow
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FWIW-Diana's resettable safety is worlds better than Weihrauch's side nob. ;)
-Y
Yep, can't argue with that. De-cocking the D460 takes a bit of fluffing about, but at least it's doable.
Not having the option to de-cock my HWs is a pain, particularly if hunting. I grew up shooting older style air guns where one always held the barrel for safety, and I still do it now. I took the "anti-bear trap" or whatever they call it off my HW97K and it's a better gun for it IMO. I've never had a barrel slip out of my hand, but I've never shot an air gun (or any gun) in snowy or icy conditions before either so maybe that makes all the difference.
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I shoot off the comfort of a table 99% of the time. I can see where the safety issue would exist when hunting. Crow
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FWIW-Diana's resettable safety is worlds better than Weihrauch's side nob. ;)
-Y
Even resettable or not... The location on the action itself is already way more ergonomic AND logic compared with Weihrauch's safety location.
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I think a closer comparison could be Ford (D) vs. Ferrari (HW).
That just doesn't make any sense, since Weihrauchs are small-engine guns with mediocre output energy. A typical Weihrauch shoots hundreds of fps slower per caliber than a typical Diana, and Weihrauch doesn't have ANY long-distance, high-power spring gun in their range, like the D54.
Dianas offer what HW doesn't in that you get a wide range of 22 - 24 fpe, high-accuracy guns of excellent dependability from Diana, but not from HW, whose forté is 12 - 15 fpe and triggers from the mid-50's.
Who is after high performance if not a Ferrari buyer? If you want to go the car analogy route, HW is Cadillac, and Diana is Ferrari.
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Worth mentioning that anybody with a Diana sidelever also has Roadworthy here as a friendly resource, too.
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FWIW-Diana's resettable safety is worlds better than Weihrauch's side nob. ;)
-Y
Even resettable or not... The location on the action itself is already way more ergonomic AND logic compared with Weihrauch's safety location.
Weihrauch safety is a dud simply because it's an afterthought. The only springer company today who uses triggers from way back in the pre-safety era is Weihrauch. So, in the 1980's they had to retro-fit a safety to a safetyless trigger, and couldn't really do it. Every other quality springer trigger out there today has been designed with the safety as an integral part, and those safeties are superior because of it.
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Never owned a Diana, but some visible parts are plastic, not sure how many more are.
Weihrauch has been using nylon/delrin spring guides for awhile now - they work well and are an upgrade from the metal (split) ones.
The newer, metal spring guide of the HW80S give the piston more momentum.........
Sowing the seeds, eh?
There are no plastic parts inside a Diana that a Weihrauch didn't have. Namely the spring guide, the piston seal and the breech seal.
I have had a half-dozen Dianas, and shot them plenty through years of four seasons in the woods. None of the exterior plastic parts have ever given me trouble, and why should they, being non-load-bearing and of quality composition and design? Having browsed through the myriad Diana discussions online over the years, that's the situation in general.
Several excellent guns of mine even have plastic triggers. There's nothing in the springer realm to get grown men to gnash their teeth and pull their hair more than a plastic trigger on a springer - I admit it was a jarring letdown years ago when I got my Walther LGV. But even here the plasticness doesn't create any issues. These are low-stress parts made of high-quality plastic, after all.
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My HW95 is very good but not really powerful enough at 12.6 ft/lbs. It is everything that it is meant to be. My HW77 is not that good. Accurate enough. Not enough power.
Weihrauchs don't have enough power for me, either. Getting at winter-coated critters over longer distances, I find 20fpe to be at the lower end of usable / ethical muzzle energy range. A brand-new HW95 (or any Weihrauch with the same engine) .22 cal has trouble breaching 16 fpe with high-BC, high-quality ammo. They just aren't high-performance guns by design.
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Thank you all for this thread.
It has been enlightening and instructing.
Also, thanks for keeping it as civil as any I have seen.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
In the end, an airgun is what each of us WANTS it to be. For some, it is a tool, for others it is a hobby, even others look at it as a repository of value and pride of ownership, you even have some of us that think they are works of mechanical art and engineering worthwhile of devoting a life-long pursuit of the understanding of the inner workings down to the fractions of milliseconds. For some of us it is an avenue to sporting prestige when we compete in International grounds, and a source of pride and joy when we see our National flag (whatever that is for each of us) in the podium.
Within that rather large range of wants, some needs develop: ease of cocking, ease of shooting, consistency, accuracy, precision, elegance, reliability, fit and finish, etc, etc, etc. The number of attributes is as varied as there are shooters.
For ME, the real "Take out of this very civil discussion" is that, from now and into the future, each brand should stay true to its core values.
IF that happens, we will have spring-piston airguns worthwhile of being owned, caressed, tuned, shot, enjoyed, displayed, taken into the woods...
We will be a niche. Always. Current PCP's are now hitting the heels of RF's, and it is not impossible to build PCP's that exceed that performance. Spring-piston airguns will always remain the domain of the "BALANCE".
Balance between whatever is important to us: power, aesthetics, endurance, reliability, overall cost of setup or ownership, ...
Believe it or not, this is going to be OUR struggle for the next years. The lure of the PCP is hard to resist for manufacturers (less cost & higher price), and the advancement of the portable compressors is an irresistible force driven by the Chinese penchant to make things cheap that somehow work, even if it is for a while and not a lifetime.
It is up to us to create the next generation of spring-piston shooters to ensure that the delicate balance between performance and "soul" in a gun shall not perish from this earth.
;-)
Again, thank you.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Keep in mind, the very best Diana's substantially out-weigh the HW77/HW97 (were talking D54/D56).
The D48/D460 and D350 are at most 8 ounces less.
Not true. My 350 Mag weighs 3.845kg. The listed weight for both the 350 Mag and the D460 is 3.900kg. My D48 weighed 4.175kg. The listed weight for the D48 is 4.200kg.
The listed weight for the underlever Weihrauchs are:
HW77: 4.100kg
HW97: 4.200kg
HW77SE: 4.300kg
That's a 200 - 400 gram (7 - 14 oz.) nominal, but up to 455 gram + (1lbs.+) actual weight difference between the non-sidelever magnum Dianas and the underlever Weihrauchs, for the benefit of the Dianas.
The high mass of the Weihrauchs is especially punishing, given their output level of 40% under the Dianas, or "bang for the pound".
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Keep in mind, the very best Diana's substantially out-weigh the HW77/HW97 (were talking D54/D56).
The D48/D460 and D350 are at most 8 ounces less.
Not true. My 350 Mag weighs 3.845kg. The listed weight for both the 350 Mag and the D460 is 3.900kg. My D48 weighed 4.175kg. The listed weight for the D48 is 4.200kg.
The listed weight for the underlever Weihrauchs are:
HW77: 4.100kg
HW97: 4.200kg
HW77SE: 4.300kg
That's a 200 - 400 gram (7 - 14 oz.) nominal, but up to 455 gram + (1lbs.+) actual weight difference between the non-sidelever magnum Dianas and the underlever Weihrauchs, for the benefit of the Dianas.
The high mass of the Weihrauchs is especially punishing, given their output level of 40% under the Dianas, or "bang for the pound".
The airguns discussed above weigh: (According to AOA website).
HW77 - 8.8 lbs D56 - 11.1 lbs
HW98 - 8.8 lbs D54 - 9.9 lbs
HW80 - 8.8 lbs D48 - 9.3 lbs
HW90 - 8.8 lbs D460 - 8.6 lbs
HW98 - 8.6 lbs D350 - 8.6 lbs
So according to AOA, I would say the D54 and D56 significantly out weigh all Weihrauch models.
The next German made Diana's are within a couple of ounces of quality HW offerings.
PS: Hector - You're silver tongue marksman ;).
Edited to remove political reference..
C'mon guys, we all know better.
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LOL!! that's funny! But very true, we all know Diana's are power houses out of the box, but? they don't have the build quality of HW period, the 34 or 95 class of power plants including the 77,97 95/R9 HW85 are all equal as far as power, The 80/R1 maxed out is a 20ftlb rifle in .22cal. that's more than enough power for anything you should be shooting with a springer air gun! IMO, I don't know of anything 20ftlbs in .22cal won't dispatch at reasonable distances? again with a spring piston air gun! I have owned more 48"s and 460mags in .22cal 350mags in .22cal and HW80's or R1's in .22cal than most of you can shake a stick at! so your arguments in this are pointless! this all comes down fit and finish and quality and accuracy and fit and feel of the rifle in your hands! 8)
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Yeah Mark ;),
Sorry Avator :P,
As Frank Burns from "Mash" would say: Tox's comments "Gripes My Cookies".
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Keep in mind, the very best Diana's substantially out-weigh the HW77/HW97 (were talking D54/D56).
The D48/D460 and D350 are at most 8 ounces less.
Not true. My 350 Mag weighs 3.845kg. The listed weight for both the 350 Mag and the D460 is 3.900kg. My D48 weighed 4.175kg. The listed weight for the D48 is 4.200kg.
The listed weight for the underlever Weihrauchs are:
HW77: 4.100kg
HW97: 4.200kg
HW77SE: 4.300kg
That's a 200 - 400 gram (7 - 14 oz.) nominal, but up to 455 gram + (1lbs.+) actual weight difference between the non-sidelever magnum Dianas and the underlever Weihrauchs, for the benefit of the Dianas.
The high mass of the Weihrauchs is especially punishing, given their output level of 40% under the Dianas, or "bang for the pound".
The airguns discussed above weigh: (According to AOA website).
HW77 - 8.8 lbs D56 - 11.1 lbs
HW98 - 8.8 lbs D54 - 9.9 lbs
HW80 - 8.8 lbs D48 - 9.3 lbs
HW90 - 8.8 lbs D460 - 8.6 lbs
HW98 - 8.6 lbs D350 - 8.6 lbs
So according to AOA, I would say the D54 and D56 significantly out weigh all Weihrauch models.
The next German made Diana's are within a couple of ounces of quality HW offerings.
PS: Hector - You're silver tongue marksman ;).
OOps ..... HW97K - 8.8 lbs
HW97 - 9.0 lbs --- but who buys that one anyway .... not many ???.
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Being mostly a lurker these days, I try to only contribute to threads that have interesting content where I hope my comments won't muck up the good points that others have already made. Two excellent brands of springers are being discussed, both with fairly clean records and histories, and each with their own dedicated group of cult followers. There are definite strengths and weaknesses (however slight) to both, and these characteristics set them apart from each other. In a way we are trying to compare apples and oranges, and as Hector so eloquently put it, we are all looking for something similar, but different, but in the end, it might just be some intangible quality that tips the scales one way or the other. and we might stay tipped that direction forever. I got an Air King as my first REAL airgun many years ago, and it was love at first sight (bad pun), and I still really love it and have had it apart and together many times, and even made what I think is an improvement to the carrier slides and rods. (BTW, it has left more than one bloody scope circle on a forehead.) Again, two excellent brands, but which is better?
It depends on who you ask. Again, many years ago when I was a bit younger, I had a boss who was a very difficult person to work for (I am keeping it polite). He once said at a meeting, "There is no reality, it is all perception." For some reason that really peed me off. OF COURSE there is reality and we can easily measure the differences! But now, years later I see that there was a fair amount of truth to what he said. My perception of my Air King is my reality. I am not going to try and convince you that it is better than your gun (and BTW, JEEZ, my 54 is heavy), but mine works for me, and yours works just as well for you. More emotion might be stirred up in arguing about who has the better air gun, than in arguing over who has the better wife or girl friend, LOL.
But we are all winners in the discussion if you have the gun that you always wanted.
Just my thoughts.
Please carry on with the discussion.
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Kirk,
HW 98 is on the list twice. Once at 8.8lbs once at 8.6 lbs.
-Y
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Being mostly a lurker these days, I try to only contribute to threads that have interesting content where I hope my comments won't muck up the good points that others have already made. Two excellent brands of springers are being discussed, both with fairly clean records and histories, and each with their own dedicated group of cult followers. There are definite strengths and weaknesses (however slight) to both, and these characteristics set them apart from each other. In a way we are trying to compare apples and oranges, and as Hector so eloquently put it, we are all looking for something similar, but different, but in the end, it might just be some intangible quality that tips the scales one way or the other. and we might stay tipped that direction forever. I got an Air King as my first REAL airgun many years ago, and it was love at first sight (bad pun), and I still really love it and have had it apart and together many times, and even made what I think is an improvement to the carrier slides and rods. (BTW, it has left more than one bloody scope circle on a forehead.) Again, two excellent brands, but which is better?
It depends on who you ask. Again, many years ago when I was a bit younger, I had a boss who was a very difficult person to work for (I am keeping it polite). He once said at a meeting, "There is no reality, it is all perception." For some reason that really peed me off. OF COURSE there is reality and we can easily measure the differences! But now, years later I see that there was a fair amount of truth to what he said. My perception of my Air King is my reality. I am not going to try and convince you that it is better than your gun (and BTW, JEEZ, my 54 is heavy), but mine works for me, and yours works just as well for you. More emotion might be stirred up in arguing about who has the better air gun, than in arguing over who has the better wife or girl friend, LOL.
But we are all winners in the discussion if you have the gun that you always wanted.
Just my thoughts.
Please carry on with the discussion.
All good points! I believe that my Hatsan 95 Votec shoots better with Crossman hollow points than Crossman domes. Same size and weight. Because I believe this, when I pull the trigger the reality is self evident! People can have their own opinions but not their own facts. Since which is better is 100 % subjectivity, reality does not matter, in this case.
-Yogi
PS how often have you shot better groups with a pellet that you KNOW your gun does not like, than with it's favorite pellet???
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Betty Lou and I shoot together often and for that reason we have purchased guns in pairs. When the 2 guns arrived we each randomly picked a box and opened them for the first time together. Hers remained hers and mine remained mine. On occasion I shot her gun and she shot my gun but we always ended up wanting our own guns back each claiming our gun was the better of the 2.
I'm sure it's because there are minute differences in all guns, even identical makes and models and we get used to those small differences to the point that we expect them to be there. We notice when they are not and possibly notice new slightly different characteristics in another gun even more.
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Kirk,
HW 98 is on the list twice. Once at 8.8lbs once at 8.6 lbs.
-Y
Yeah Y,
My 114 post was an attempt to fix that typo ..........
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Being mostly a lurker these days, I try to only contribute to threads that have interesting content where I hope my comments won't muck up the good points that others have already made. Two excellent brands of springers are being discussed, both with fairly clean records and histories, and each with their own dedicated group of cult followers. There are definite strengths and weaknesses (however slight) to both, and these characteristics set them apart from each other. In a way we are trying to compare apples and oranges, and as Hector so eloquently put it, we are all looking for something similar, but different, but in the end, it might just be some intangible quality that tips the scales one way or the other. and we might stay tipped that direction forever. I got an Air King as my first REAL airgun many years ago, and it was love at first sight (bad pun), and I still really love it and have had it apart and together many times, and even made what I think is an improvement to the carrier slides and rods. (BTW, it has left more than one bloody scope circle on a forehead.) Again, two excellent brands, but which is better?
It depends on who you ask. Again, many years ago when I was a bit younger, I had a boss who was a very difficult person to work for (I am keeping it polite). He once said at a meeting, "There is no reality, it is all perception." For some reason that really peed me off. OF COURSE there is reality and we can easily measure the differences! But now, years later I see that there was a fair amount of truth to what he said. My perception of my Air King is my reality. I am not going to try and convince you that it is better than your gun (and BTW, JEEZ, my 54 is heavy), but mine works for me, and yours works just as well for you. More emotion might be stirred up in arguing about who has the better air gun, than in arguing over who has the better wife or girl friend, LOL.
But we are all winners in the discussion if you have the gun that you always wanted.
Just my thoughts.
Please carry on with the discussion.
Lloyd,
We appreciate your comments ;).
PS: Will you ever be able to resurrect your, invaluable PCP (efficiency) calculator? I used it for years and really miss it :(.
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More emotion might be stirred up in arguing about who has the better air gun, than in arguing over who has the better wife or girl friend, LOL.
Please carry on with the discussion.
I have the best wife, the best girlfriend AND the best springers ;) ;D 8)
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More emotion might be stirred up in arguing about who has the better air gun, than in arguing over who has the better wife or girl friend, LOL.
Please carry on with the discussion.
I have the best wife, the best girlfriend AND the best springers ;) ;D 8)
I guess by that definition, YOU ARE THE BEST. ::)
-Y
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More emotion might be stirred up in arguing about who has the better air gun, than in arguing over who has the better wife or girl friend, LOL.
Please carry on with the discussion.
I have the best wife, the best girlfriend AND the best springers ;) ;D 8)
Welcome to the GTA.
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More emotion might be stirred up in arguing about who has the better air gun, than in arguing over who has the better wife or girl friend, LOL.
Please carry on with the discussion.
I have the best wife, the best girlfriend AND the best springers ;) ;D 8)
I guess by that definition, YOU ARE THE BEST. ::)
-Y
I wouldn't have put it that way but......
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More emotion might be stirred up in arguing about who has the better air gun, than in arguing over who has the better wife or girl friend, LOL.
Please carry on with the discussion.
I have the best wife, the best girlfriend AND the best springers ;) ;D 8)
I guess by that definition, YOU ARE THE BEST. ::)
-Y
I wouldn't have put it that way but......
Wow! Claiming the best in 3 out of 3 categories! AND adding a 4th best of the best category! That might just reinforce the, "there is no reality, it is all perception," statement.
But I am happy for you, just keep believing your perception!
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More emotion might be stirred up in arguing about who has the better air gun, than in arguing over who has the better wife or girl friend, LOL.
Please carry on with the discussion.
I have the best wife, the best girlfriend AND the best springers ;) ;D 8)
I guess by that definition, YOU ARE THE BEST. ::)
-Y
I wouldn't have put it that way but......
Wow! Claiming the best in 3 out of 3 categories! AND adding a 4th best of the best category! That might just reinforce the, "there is no reality, it is all perception," statement.
But I am happy for you, just keep believing your perception!
Apparently there are some very serious and sensitive folks reacting to my post, and emojis are useless at conveying sarcasm, irony, humor.
Lighten up, Smile, and enjoy the rest of your day ;)
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https://youtu.be/MxC-ynRZoDg?si=D2xmA14hlbOObrHj
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More emotion might be stirred up in arguing about who has the better air gun, than in arguing over who has the better wife or girl friend, LOL.
Please carry on with the discussion.
I have the best wife, the best girlfriend AND the best springers ;) ;D 8)
I guess by that definition, YOU ARE THE BEST. ::)
-Y
I wouldn't have put it that way but......
Wow! Claiming the best in 3 out of 3 categories! AND adding a 4th best of the best category! That might just reinforce the, "there is no reality, it is all perception," statement.
But I am happy for you, just keep believing your perception!
Apparently there are some very serious and sensitive folks reacting to my post, and emojis are useless at conveying sarcasm, irony, humor.
Lighten up, Smile, and enjoy the rest of your day ;)
LOL Chris... that goes both ways.. I'm sure these guys were just "mashin' yer taters" as was I.
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More emotion might be stirred up in arguing about who has the better air gun, than in arguing over who has the better wife or girl friend, LOL.
Please carry on with the discussion.
I have the best wife, the best girlfriend AND the best springers ;) ;D 8)
I guess by that definition, YOU ARE THE BEST. ::)
-Y
I wouldn't have put it that way but......
Wow! Claiming the best in 3 out of 3 categories! AND adding a 4th best of the best category! That might just reinforce the, "there is no reality, it is all perception," statement.
But I am happy for you, just keep believing your perception!
Apparently there are some very serious and sensitive folks reacting to my post, and emojis are useless at conveying sarcasm, irony, humor.
Lighten up, Smile, and enjoy the rest of your day ;)
Oops, sorry if there has been a misunderstanding. :-[
Quite true, without sitting across from someone it is often hard to tell the poster's intent. I hope that I am reading your humorous sarcasm correctly, and you, mine, because honestly, I do find this exchange very hilarious. It is all good. Certainly nothing intended but a little fun by all, but at no one's expense. ;D I am smiling. ;D
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I don’t count my time with my prior springer because I hated it. 10-15 years later I found this place.
I eventually purchased a new HW30, thank you enablers. I love that thing and still do. It was followed by 95. That was an experience. Bad that ended good.
It should have gone back the same day but I didn’t know any better. By a 1,000 shots the seal failed. All the while my accuracy would come and go. I would always blame me, just dont know how to keep my hold consistent.
All that time I also was drinking from the German Gate fire hose. Particularly the Yoda/Groove hose. They unknowingly convinced me that I need to work on my own airguns.
I corrected several warranty issues on my own and now have (after 2 years of fiddling) a gun that is my favorite.
With the mechanical issues solved, I could actually learn to shoot it accurately. I will never part with it.
I have never seen a Diana, so I cant really comment on those. But if there was one that I wanted, I would not hesitate to buy one.
I know that there are plenty of springers that work just fine out of the box. Personally, regardless of brand, I expect to have to go through them. If not to correct things, then to know things are how I want them.
I do really want a Walter springer. All but one of my pcp have Walther barrels that have made me into a low skill barrel snob.
I am a parts guy by trade and really worry about parts availability in the future.
I may have a Diana some day, but for now my needs, I have everything more than covered.
This whole thing is such a deep dark hole.
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Being mostly a lurker these days, I try to only contribute to threads that have interesting content where I hope my comments won't muck up the good points that others have already made. Two excellent brands of springers are being discussed, both with fairly clean records and histories, and each with their own dedicated group of cult followers. There are definite strengths and weaknesses (however slight) to both, and these characteristics set them apart from each other. In a way we are trying to compare apples and oranges, and as Hector so eloquently put it, we are all looking for something similar, but different, but in the end, it might just be some intangible quality that tips the scales one way or the other. and we might stay tipped that direction forever. I got an Air King as my first REAL airgun many years ago, and it was love at first sight (bad pun), and I still really love it and have had it apart and together many times, and even made what I think is an improvement to the carrier slides and rods. (BTW, it has left more than one bloody scope circle on a forehead.) Again, two excellent brands, but which is better?
It depends on who you ask. Again, many years ago when I was a bit younger, I had a boss who was a very difficult person to work for (I am keeping it polite). He once said at a meeting, "There is no reality, it is all perception." For some reason that really peed me off. OF COURSE there is reality and we can easily measure the differences! But now, years later I see that there was a fair amount of truth to what he said. My perception of my Air King is my reality. I am not going to try and convince you that it is better than your gun (and BTW, JEEZ, my 54 is heavy), but mine works for me, and yours works just as well for you. More emotion might be stirred up in arguing about who has the better air gun, than in arguing over who has the better wife or girl friend, LOL.
But we are all winners in the discussion if you have the gun that you always wanted.
Just my thoughts.
Please carry on with the discussion.
Wisdom posted here, thank you.
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Hey Lloyd,
I know this isn't the place, but is anything in the works for re-establishing your (PCP) efficiency calculator?
Surely You and Bob can figure this out - right?
Kirk
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Hey Lloyd,
I know this isn't the place, but is anything in the works for re-establishing your (PCP) efficiency calculator?
Surely You and Bob can figure this out - right?
Kirk
Privateer (Jeff) is putting a serious effort into getting this online again, and I know he is making progress. Maybe some encouragement from a few others might help him along??
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Kirk...
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=140859.msg156497013#msg156497013
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There has been plenty of interesting stuff considerately added to this thread by many people. That's a win for everybody. 👍
My original musing was about shifting "allegiances" with time and experience. Speaking for myself, this question applies to Wiehrauch vs Diana. I'm a fan of both, but started with Diana and would likely never have known about other quality rifles, but for unforseen circumstances. I unexpectedly came across and had rebuilt an FWB 124, then stumbled across an early R9 in rapid succession, maybe 5 years ago. I had previously bought a D34 at a pawn shop because "why not", so I now had a really nice assortment of excellent springers to enjoy in a rotation, which took me from lounging around the springer pool to diving right in, and I came up smiling.
Since then I have been able to buy or borrow many good German rifles, some stock and some tuned. To me, my FWB 124 is an only child but not Diana and Weihrauch.
All these rifles have basic similarities but they definitely have different "feel" to them.
To continue the analogy, the two companies have "raised their families" with different philosophies.
HW has conservatively stuck with the tried and true, and simply makes their rifles to that heirloom standard without adding costs for product development, etc. As a consumer I love this.
However, when it comes to innovation, I cast HW as the tortoise, and Diana as the hare. And if you appreciate the fruits of Diana's engineering (and I do!) you will likely overlook the little little cost saving steps they take to stay in their price range. I understand how this works, and I'm OK with it. Still, I wish it didn't have to be so. Ultimately for me, as a consumer buying a long term product, the savings for plastic end caps etc. are not a positive. That's just me - to many people they will be justified.
Interestingly, my first quality German rifle was an early Diana 45, the square trigger guard/recoil pin version. All steel and remarkably well made, short stroke, great trigger, very very accurate, somewhat heavy, and dated styling.
All things you could say about most HWs, right....?
So to me, that's a noteworthy point in the timeline, maybe where Diana and HW were beginning to separate themselves. Or, I should say, where Diana was seperating themselves from other makers. Diana has evolved by chasing advancement, and others like HW have more "stuck to their guns" with their traditional springer designs.
In my case, I suppose that I should say that my objective brain appreciates Diana more, and that my subjective brain is a big Weihrauch fan.
As I've gotten more experience/exposure to these rifle, i have developed a mild preference for HW, so that's where I fall.
That's just me. I'm sure that others may have done just the opposite, and for perfectly good reasons.
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Yeah, now that I've gotten to be a old fart .... I know what I like and it doesn't really bother me what others think :D. If I didn't understand the differences, I'd do more research.
Everyone should feel the same ...... as were not talking about a big difference in quality here.
Everyone in the USA and UK should be glad Weihrauch and Diana exist - as Germany was forced to make Airguns in lieu of firearms as reparations for WWII.
AA were heavily influenced by Weihrauch's accomplishments in triggers/Underlevers.
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"Everyone in the USA and UK should be glad Weihrauch and Diana exist..."
Absolutely!
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"Everyone in the USA and UK should be glad Weihrauch and Diana exist..."
Absolutely!
I am!!!
Particularly when you conside that PCP's is where the money and sales are.
-Yogi
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LOL!! that's funny! But very true, we all know Diana's are power houses out of the box, but? they don't have the build quality of HW period, the 34 or 95 class of power plants including the 77,97 95/R9 HW85 are all equal as far as power, The 80/R1 maxed out is a 20ftlb rifle in .22cal. that's more than enough power for anything you should be shooting with a springer air gun! IMO, I don't know of anything 20ftlbs in .22cal won't dispatch at reasonable distances? again with a spring piston air gun! I have owned more 48"s and 460mags in .22cal 350mags in .22cal and HW80's or R1's in .22cal than most of you can shake a stick at! so your arguments in this are pointless! this all comes down fit and finish and quality and accuracy and fit and feel of the rifle in your hands! 8)
And warranty, especially if you are not accustomed to doing your own work. Doubly so if the used market comes into play.
No disrespect intended Mark!
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Here's how I look at air guns, when you get a new gun? first thing I do is look it over to make sure it not damaged in anyway. then I check the stock screws to make sure their tight! clean the barrel and start shooting it! I check it for mechanical function and accuracy, if all that's good? I'll know with in 30 to 50 pellets! and then after that I'm going to tear the rifle down and clean it up inside deburr it sleeve out lube it properly, I may not install an aftermarket spring kit and seals until I'm ready to! It all depends on what I find after the gun is opened up? I know there's a lot of folks out there who don't have the knowledge or skills to do what a lot of us here do, I get that, this why most of us stress to purchase a quality air gun to begin with! even quality air manufactures make a bad gun once in a while! and believe me you'll hear about it! Warranties go out the window as soon as you alter the rifle! unless you have a really messed up gun to begin with? I'll add more to this later, time for me to eat and I have to work a 12.5HR shift tomorrow! :o
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Mox nix to me. I have both. I make purchase decisions based upon the individual rifle, not brand loyalty!
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I've got a .22 Diana 460 but have been a .177 only household for a while. Maybe I'll try to trade for a .177 HW that fits me (the R7 is too small for me, only HW rifle I have or have shot)
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Is it really a question of HW vs Diana or is it more about how many one can keep? And not in a cheeky, "oh I bought another one..." sort of way. I like a gun for this range, a gun for that range, this caliber, that, and so on. There's a lot of variety between the two brands, so much that I spend more time maintaining and organizing than I do shooting, and I usually keep less than 6 rifles.
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I'm worried saying too much will lead to someone taking something personal or worse.
Let's just say not every Dana, nor HW airgun will be 100% and not every defect will show up during the return window (if there is one). I beat the drum enough this thread considering it wasn't mine.
I just wish others better luck than I've had.
This is a really good thread, if I've disrupted it I apologize.
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P.S.
Both manufacturers make an airgun of sufficient quality that given "proper attention" they may be passed onto the next generation.
Both have their own special appeals.
Fair enough?
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All,
To get this nudged back on track, what I'm asking about is how various shooters may (or may not) have started out as fans of one, but with experience shifted their preference to another.
Their are definitely good reasons to do so, in either direction.
That said, this has been a very good thread even with a 10% topic creep....
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Back to what I was saying earlier, have owned and tuned more air rifles than I can count, you see what different manufactures do and don't do as far as quality, you see their weak and strong points and value for your money, I started off shooting Powerline 880's and Crosman 760 pumpers and Crosman pistols back in the 70's!! when I was a young teenager. so, air guns are nothing new to me, actually my dad started myself and my 2 brothers shooting when we were about 5yrs of age! so, like I said this is nothing new to me! and air guns have come a long way since then. I used to think anyone how paid more than $100 dollars for an air rifle something must have wrong with them! until I purchased my first real air gun, that was a German made 1! and that was an HW, everything else followed. AIRARMS, Diana, FWB, {ETC} and I have had many examples of all of them, and yes, I like them all! But as a whole HW is the best bang for your buck! No feathers ruffled here, no offence take from anyone either! this is my experience from many many years of shooting and owning all of these types of air guns and tuning them and shooting them, and did I say shooting them? I did!!! oh well buy what you want it's your money! I get it I also chased for the ultimate gun and always end back up to an HW air gun YMMV :P
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I bet all of that is great and true. For you.
But...
With my Diana's and Air Arms I have never ever had the itch (not even slightly) to tweak and tune my airguns. With a weihrauch... I definitely did. After 10 shots already.
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Just went to the Diana and Weihrauch Website to view their current offerings:
Two things seem pretty obvious:
- Diana is struggling to find their brand - (look at all the models which will be gone in a year or two ???).
- Their 5 best guns don't even try to compete with Weihrauch (D54, D460, D48, D34 and D350).
The Diana XR200 is likely going to be their latest PCP failure ...........
The only reason they stay alive is their non-Weihrauch (Springer) qualities (power and low recoil in side levers).
If they didn't go after these market segments they'd be out of business.
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Agreed. Their rebranded Chinese offerings reaping profits of late.
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Which Diana models might be discontiued soon? The 34 is sadly gone. I hadn't heard others were on their way out.
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Just went to the Diana and Weihrauch Website to view their current offerings:
Two things seem pretty obvious:
- Diana is struggling to find their brand - (look at all the models which will be gone in a year or two ???).
- Their 5 best guns don't even try to compete with Weihrauch (D54, D460, D48, D34 and D350).
The Diana XR200 is likely going to be their latest PCP failure ...........
The only reason they stay alive is their non-Weihrauch (Springer) qualities (power and low recoil in side levers).
If they didn't go after these market segments they'd be out of business.
Do you have any evidence this statement of Diana rifles that "look at all the models which will be gone in a year or two"? You also stated Diana outsells HW and were asked for evidence for that and have yet to provide that. It is time to back statements with evidence.
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Just went to the Diana and Weihrauch Website to view their current offerings:
Two things seem pretty obvious:
- Diana is struggling to find their brand - (look at all the models which will be gone in a year or two ???).
- Their 5 best guns don't even try to compete with Weihrauch (D54, D460, D48, D34 and D350).
The Diana XR200 is likely going to be their latest PCP failure ...........
The only reason they stay alive is their non-Weihrauch (Springer) qualities (power and low recoil in side levers).
If they didn't go after these market segments they'd be out of business.
Do you have any evidence this statement of Diana rifles that "look at all the models which will be gone in a year or two"? You also stated Diana outsells HW and were asked for evidence for that and have yet to provide that. It is time to back statements with evidence.
+1
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Look at the D54 at AOA, it's the only Diana which has held it's value vs. the market.
AOA has the D460 and D350 for $399 ................. only because they can't sell them.
Most other Diana's are made in China and/or have plastic stocks, these models will likely be gone in a couple of years.
In the last 6/7 years, Diana has brought out many different PCP's and Springers into the market .... which have failed.
It's obvious their management lack the ability to design/develop quality guns which customers value.
The only Weihrauch Springer which sell for less than almost all Diana's except the D54 is the HW30S.
This should tell you something ...................
Hector can only do so much .......................
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Look at the D54 at AOA, it's the only Diana which has held it's value vs. the market.
AOA has the D460 and D350 for $399 ................. only because they can't sell them.
...
This should tell you something ...................
Hector can only do so much .......................
TBH Dana couldn't sell those to some of us period. Not at any price.
(Does that count)
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I have most the current rifles in Air Arms and Weihrauch before I started buying Diana. Missing the HW57. In the last 1 1/2 yrs I bought 7-8 Diana’s.
I found the Diana’s deliver a harder shot with great accuracy. All of them.
When they use sights like on the 460, what happened. It does go with the plastic safety that’s on all their rifles. So sad, so close.
I’m not an expert like a lot of the members, but I know the difference in quality parts in the inside as well. I’ve got 3 or 4 Diana’s that I’m changing springs and piston seals soon as well of other makes.
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Hit the send by mistake.
I like shooting the Diana’s, love the whack.
IMO they’re next in line, they’re not better. Not a chance. Crow
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Just went to the Diana and Weihrauch Website to view their current offerings:
Two things seem pretty obvious:
- Diana is struggling to find their brand - (look at all the models which will be gone in a year or two ???).
- Their 5 best guns don't even try to compete with Weihrauch (D54, D460, D48, D34 and D350).
The Diana XR200 is likely going to be their latest PCP failure ...........
The only reason they stay alive is their non-Weihrauch (Springer) qualities (power and low recoil in side levers).
If they didn't go after these market segments they'd be out of business.
Do you have any evidence this statement of Diana rifles that "look at all the models which will be gone in a year or two"? You also stated Diana outsells HW and were asked for evidence for that and have yet to provide that. It is time to back statements with evidence.
I've not been able to access this information.
- Hector may have access.
However, go on-line with AOA and select "Spring Piston Airguns". They have 2 pages of Springer models.
The first page only includes Weihrauch guns. Page 2 has a few Diana's at the bottom of the page.
Takeaways:
- AOA would be stupid from a Marketing stand point, if they didn't list their best sellers on the first page ;).
- Almost all Weihrauch offerings on Page 1 are Pre-Order (aka sold out) -> and require a deposit.
- All Weihrauch models except the HW30S cost the same of more than all Diana offerings, except the D54.
- Every Diana Airgun offering is in stock :P
- Diana can't sell their more powerful air guns .... even at prices lower than almost all Weihrauch models.
This does not portray Diana as a flourishing business.
This, while not reflecting actual sales numbers, does suggest Diana is becoming irrelevant in the World of Airguns.
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Hey Guys,
Remember .... I don't think (German) Diana guns are bad in any way.
Matter of fact, I think they're quite Good - however, bad management and marketing choices have hurt their desirability.
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Just went to the Diana and Weihrauch Website to view their current offerings:
Two things seem pretty obvious:
- Diana is struggling to find their brand - (look at all the models which will be gone in a year or two ???).
- Their 5 best guns don't even try to compete with Weihrauch (D54, D460, D48, D34 and D350).
The Diana XR200 is likely going to be their latest PCP failure ...........
The only reason they stay alive is their non-Weihrauch (Springer) qualities (power and low recoil in side levers).
If they didn't go after these market segments they'd be out of business.
Do you have any evidence this statement of Diana rifles that "look at all the models which will be gone in a year or two"? You also stated Diana outsells HW and were asked for evidence for that and have yet to provide that. It is time to back statements with evidence.
I've not been able to access this information.
- Hector may have access.
However, go on-line with AOA and select "Spring Piston Airguns". They have 2 pages of Springer models.
The first page only includes Weihrauch guns. Page 2 has a few Diana's at the bottom of the page.
Takeaways:
- AOA would be stupid from a Marketing stand point, if they didn't list their best sellers on the first page ;).
- Almost all Weihrauch offerings on Page 1 are Pre-Order (aka sold out) -> and require a deposit.
- All Weihrauch models except the HW30S cost the same of more than all Diana offerings, except the D54.
- Every Diana Airgun offering is in stock :P
- Diana can't sell their more powerful air guns .... even at prices lower than almost all Weihrauch models.
This does not portray Diana as a flourishing business.
This, while not reflecting actual sales numbers, does suggest Diana is becoming irrelevant in the World of Airguns.
,,,,or Diana does better supply chain management LOL :P
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Just went to the Diana and Weihrauch Website to view their current offerings:
Two things seem pretty obvious:
- Diana is struggling to find their brand - (look at all the models which will be gone in a year or two ???).
- Their 5 best guns don't even try to compete with Weihrauch (D54, D460, D48, D34 and D350).
The Diana XR200 is likely going to be their latest PCP failure ...........
The only reason they stay alive is their non-Weihrauch (Springer) qualities (power and low recoil in side levers).
If they didn't go after these market segments they'd be out of business.
Do you have any evidence this statement of Diana rifles that "look at all the models which will be gone in a year or two"? You also stated Diana outsells HW and were asked for evidence for that and have yet to provide that. It is time to back statements with evidence.
I've not been able to access this information.
- Hector may have access.
However, go on-line with AOA and select "Spring Piston Airguns". They have 2 pages of Springer models.
The first page only includes Weihrauch guns. Page 2 has a few Diana's at the bottom of the page.
Takeaways:
- AOA would be stupid from a Marketing stand point, if they didn't list their best sellers on the first page ;).
- Almost all Weihrauch offerings on Page 1 are Pre-Order (aka sold out) -> and require a deposit.
- All Weihrauch models except the HW30S cost the same of more than all Diana offerings, except the D54.
- Every Diana Airgun offering is in stock :P
- Diana can't sell their more powerful air guns .... even at prices lower than almost all Weihrauch models.
This does not portray Diana as a flourishing business.
This, while not reflecting actual sales numbers, does suggest Diana is becoming irrelevant in the World of Airguns.
I am only answering this because the devil was invoked. You know, Dracula cannot enter a house without being invited.... >:-)
OK, hard facts:
Overall, WORLDWIDE, DIANA sells AS MANY airguns as HW.
Many of the best sellers worldwide are precisely the guns that are deplored here (synthetic stocks and Chinese origin offerings). Not everyone is a "connoisseur". MOST people out there, struggle to get the equivalent of $300 for a common airgun. Prices worldwide are horribly high. And where they are not too high, laws are stupidly complicated.
So, this forum's specialists makeup a VERY narrow slice of the worldwide market; and it is DEFINITELY NOT the defining driver.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
When we take into account the other sales under the DIANA brand that are NOT airguns, then situation is even more dramatic, DIANA as a MAKER sells twice as much as HW.
Will some models disappear? For sure! Which ones? no one knows. The overall sales for three successive years define that. The MARKET will speak and our opinion is worth less than $0.02
Is AoA silly? yes. SEVERAL times, for the last 20 years, the head of the company has voiced openly that "(He/AoA) will get everyone out of the airgun business in the US and will be the sole mayor player." So, I really do not put much store in AoA. I'ld rather buy from Krale than from AoA.
Does AoA strategy plays into DIANA sales? Not much, they are not the MAIN buyer in the USA.
The US sales strategy and logistics is not defined by DIANA, it is decided by BLS, who also decides all other policies in relation to the attention and service that the market gets.
Good, Bad, or Indifferent, that is the reality. And it is like that by contract agreed to by BOTH sides.
Neither BLS can impose conditions (because his main business is all the distribution of GSG made guns), nor DIANA can impose conditions because there are other brands in the group that also have "pull".
So, predictions apart, I do need to say that once someone starts posting "doubtful" numbers/figures/statistics as facts, and not as his/her own personal perceptions, my interest is lost.
Sadly, we Americans have a penchant towards "brand loyalty" (just see how many products have a generic name that corresponds to a brand), and "tooting our horns", when the horns aren't even ours to toot.
Just start a Chevy vs Ford discussion and see then how many actually hold/held shares of those two (once) publicly traded companies.
Even I think that management at Germany could be doing a better job with the airguns side, but do remember that DIANA (M&G) is no longer family owned and is now a part of a BIG group, whose MAIN business is basically geared towards Military hardware and only as "sidelines" do they have sport shooting equipment.
The SAME group that will outfit the US armed forces for handguns will also, in the near future outfit the army with their next combat weapon. It will take YEARS to move everyone over and BILLIONS of dollars spent by many countries, but it will happen. In the environment of the group, discussing a few millions of sales for airguns is the same as someone telling you off for having a Starbucks coffee instead of a Horton's. In few words, it is "CHUMP CHANGE". Within a large group, remember the Golden Rule ("He who gets the Gold, also gets to Rule").
I have already written that, for spring-piston airguns, "the writing is on the wall" and that it is our challenge and mission to educate the next generation of spring shooters. That has been my mission for the last 13 years and the Spring-Piston USA FT Team has placed well many times, coming out champions twice at the World's. Hopefully that example and those new shooters (mostly between 25 and 45), will generate interest in spring-piston airguns.
Do not ask what Spring-Piston shooting is doing for you, ask: What are YOU doing?
And THIS is my parting thought on this matter: Technical discussions about what is better for a given airgunning task are always useful for anyone that wants to read them (DIANA included).
Statement of preference for "shiny bangles" is also useful.
Predictions about what is going to be discontinued or "gone" are useless and drive a wedge between people who like similar stuff and should be working together.
JMHO. Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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Hector, first off, I mean no disrespect to you in anyway, we all know where your loyalty is. That's with DIANA air guns, and there's nothing wrong with that, my brother sold you a rifle awhile back and you told him you were the face of DIANA! my brother told me that's funny I don't see his face on the box! I do not have brand loyalty! I am a consumer; I do this just for fun! I have no stake in any of the air gun industry! only my experiences! in adult air guns that spans about 20yrs, to date, my reality is use and ownership, from Chinese air rifles to the upper hi end of air guns that have been available here in the U.S. as I have stated in my posts along with other folks here, who are consumers and what we see from owning different manufactures offerings, we know what we see when we tune them, or the weak and strong points of different manufactures offerings, we know what the pros and cons are, and we know what we get for our money! again it not about brand loyalty it's what I get for my money! YMMV ;)
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High end [German] airguns ?
Then we talk Anschütz-, Feinwerkbau- and Walther PCPs.
I've ever had the pleasure to shoot the Anschütz 9015 from someone (according to Krale the most accurate airgun out there - and I can humbly concur that) and the Walther LG 300 XT.
These PCPs are accurate out of the box, no tweaking and tuning needed. Pure German engineering at its best. Shooting these PCPs, you will start to realize that 'high end' springers like Diana and our well adored Weihrauchs are just torturing tools for the user of it.
Now this are the extremes when it comes to examples. What Hector is trying to say (great write up Hector !) is to love the fact that we still have this great springer diversity (by definition I hate this buzz word, sorry) from German origin. Especially since for half of the price of a Weihrauch springer in your case -as consumer- you can buy a great entry PCP + charging equipment and probably even a scope as well, that is as accurate as a Weihrauch can be. And 'other' consumers are aware and start to discover that now too...
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High end [German] airguns ?
Then we talk Anschütz-, Feinwerkbau- and Walther PCPs.
I've ever had the pleasure to shoot the Anschütz 9015 from someone (according to Krale the most accurate airgun out there - and I can humbly concur that) and the Walther LG 300 XT.
These PCPs are accurate out of the box, no tweaking and tuning needed. Pure German engineering at its best. Shooting these PCPs, you will start to realize that 'high end' springers like Diana and our well adored Weihrauchs are just torturing tools for the user of it.
Now this are the extremes when it comes to examples. What Hector is trying to say (great write up Hector !) is to love the fact that we still have this great springer diversity (by definition I hate this buzz word, sorry) from German origin. Especially since for half of the price of a Weihrauch springer in your case -as consumer- you can buy a great entry PCP + charging equipment and probably even a scope as well, that is as accurate as a Weihrauch can be. And 'other' consumers are aware and start to discover that now too...
Well Styr's seem to dominate the Olympics. ::)
-Y
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I used to be a motor head and this sound awfully similar to the Ford/Chevy arguments I've heard over the years. In my humble opinion they're both well made I only have one HW a Beeman R9 and I absolutely love it. I also have a Diana 350 and I love it too. If you want to get nit picky I'd say the HW rifles are more refined, but other than that I think they're both high quality products and I've been more than satisfied with their accuracy and performance.
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I'm with you Wes, and you said it well.
My original question was to see if some people had changed their preferences with experience, as had happened to me. My first exposures to good springers were both Diana's, and I was surprised to find that with more exposure I now (mostly) prefer less powerful HWs, because I really like the harder shooting guns. Started wondering if I was following a common evolution, as it were, away from velocity.
I've changed to the point that I recently bought an HW30, and I'm enjoying it. I would not have thought to do so 5 years ago.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not selling off any Diana's and they get plenty of time in my shooting rotation. In fact I have a little D54 project going on now, and a D460 that will be getting some attention soon too. But I've found that the HWs suit me better. Or just please me more. Not quite sure which.
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I used to be a motor head and this sound awfully similar to the Ford/Chevy arguments I've heard over the years. In my humble opinion they're both well made I only have one HW a Beeman R9 and I absolutely love it. I also have a Diana 350 and I love it too. If you want to get nit picky I'd say the HW rifles are more refined, but other than that I think they're both high quality products and I've been more than satisfied with their accuracy and performance.
;)
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My first exposures to good springers were both Diana's, and I was surprised to find that with more exposure I now (mostly) prefer less powerful HWs, because I really like the harder shooting guns.
I didn't research this, nor look it up, but it came up in a Google search looking for parts for my "brand new junk gun d34" ... I'm needing a bracket and screws that Diana pretty much hacked up during warranty service (then only returned it to me after I filed a complaint with the Attorney General).
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=123163.20
I reckon all l'm suggesting here is this COULD have been your 1st Diana experience, it's not that far removed from mine, and it may have colored the perceptions of others contributing to your (very informative) thread.
Maybe the companies policies have nothing to do with why a person might find motivation to prefer an HW over Diana and I'm unreasonable to bring up anything other than the quality of a well made properly assembled airgun, but at least in my small mind how a company sees its customers feels like a weighing factor?
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My first exposures to good springers were both Diana's, and I was surprised to find that with more exposure I now (mostly) prefer less powerful HWs, because I really like the harder shooting guns.
I didn't research this, nor look it up, but it came up in a Google search looking for parts for my "brand new junk gun d34" ... I'm needing a bracket and screws that Diana pretty much hacked up during warranty service (then only returned it to me after I filed a complaint with the Attorney General).
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=123163.20
I reckon all l'm suggesting here is this COULD have been your 1st Diana experience, it's not that far removed from mine, and it may have colored the perceptions of others contributing to your (very informative) thread.
Maybe the companies policies have nothing to do with why a person might find motivation to prefer an HW over Diana and I'm unreasonable to bring up anything other than the quality of a well made properly assembled airgun, but at least in my small mind how a company sees its customers feels like a weighing factor?
I just want to be clear here. Diana ? Or do you mean Umarex. They're not the same company after all. I think a large number of us have had negative experiences with Umarex which are in no way connected or to blame on Diana. Of course they're no longer involved with any German spring pistons, and its now Blue Line as the middle man.
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I am only answering this because the devil was invoked. You know, Dracula cannot enter a house without being invited.... >:-)
OK, hard facts:
- Overall, WORLDWIDE, DIANA sells AS MANY airguns as HW.
- Many of the best sellers worldwide are precisely the guns that are deplored here (synthetic stocks and Chinese origin offerings).
When we take into account the other sales under the DIANA brand that are NOT airguns, then situation is even more dramatic, DIANA as a MAKER sells twice as much as HW.
Will some models disappear? The MARKET will speak and our opinion is worth less than $0.02
- I'd rather buy from Krale than from AoA.
The US sales strategy and logistics is not defined by DIANA, it is decided by BLS, who also decides all other policies in relation to the attention and service that the market gets.
Good, Bad, or Indifferent, that is the reality. And it is like that by contract agreed to by BOTH sides. Neither BLS can impose conditions (because his main business is all the distribution of GSG made guns), nor DIANA can impose conditions because there are other brands in the group that also have "pull".
Sadly, we Americans have a penchant towards "brand loyalty".
Even I think that management at Germany could be doing a better job with the airguns side, but do remember that DIANA (M&G) is no longer family owned and is now a part of a BIG group, whose MAIN business is basically geared towards Military hardware and only as "sidelines" do they have sport shooting equipment.
The SAME group that will outfit the US armed forces for handguns will also, in the near future outfit the army with their next combat weapon. It will take YEARS to move everyone over and BILLIONS of dollars spent by many countries, but it will happen. In the environment of the group, discussing a few millions of sales for airguns is the same as someone telling you off for having a Starbucks coffee instead of a Horton's. In few words, it is "CHUMP CHANGE". Within a large group, remember the Golden Rule ("He who gets the Gold, also gets to Rule").
That has been my mission for the last 13 years and the Spring-Piston USA FT Team has placed well many times, coming out champions twice at the World's. Hopefully that example and those new shooters (mostly between 25 and 45), will generate interest in spring-piston airguns.
JMHO. Keep well and shoot straight! HM
Thanks Hector,
We (I) needed to get a broader picture of Diana's business realities and thinking ;).
It sounds like the fate of the German, classic Diana's is in the hands of BLS - and a just a small part of GSG's sales.
Because of the "Golden Rule", quality (German) Diana's will be under pressure to be discontinued as a larger & larger part of Diana's sales are from their less expensive, Chinese offerings.
After all Business is Business - Right!
Guaranteed it must cost Diana more to make a D460, D350 than it costs HW to make a HW50S, however they sell for the same price at AOA. How is this sustainable for Diana?
Krale only shows 1 Diana offering - the D460 @ $451.00 . What's that? ???.
I have purchased over 15 guns from Krale and only 1 from AOA, because I don't like their attitude :P.
If the US market is the one demanding more expensive airguns, AOA handling of Diana's quality offerings is not a good sign. It seems they cannot sell them?
My Airgun tastes have changed over the years having gone from all Hatsan, BAM, BSA and Beeman QB offerings to Weihrauch, RAW, BSA and Beeman QB's.
Along the way I tried AA airguns, but didn't think the Whistles and Bells were worth the price of admission. I initially tried the cheaper route, but after tuning a number of guns decided to go with (mostly) quality. Weihrauch naturally became the best fit for me.
Your comments make me feel badly for a proud airgun manufacturer Diana (M&G) once was.
In the (BLS, GSG) boardrooms, quality only means so much, especially in the face of higher costs and lower sales :(.
Weihrauch has persevered by not selling out and sticking to quality when they likely had other thoughts too.
Lastly, Hector, I would never call you Dracula or anything negative - We need your perspective :D.
I'm a business guy and just see you comments as depressing for the future of Diana's quality offerings ..............
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Denby, those two Diana's I mentioned were both excellent. Especially the D45. Gave me a great opinion of Diana/German springers.
Good enough that I bought a crumbled seal FWB 124 on a whim and sent it out to be redone. (Thanks John!)
That, in turn, turned out so good that I bought a .20 cal R9 that I randomly stumbled across and had zero need for.
That rifle was simply smoother and "better" than the others. Especially the trigger.
At that point I stopped thinking of these German springers as basement-useable alternatives to "real guns" - they now had my full attention, on their own merits.
My only bad experiences with a Diana came from a refurb gun that I stubbornly refused to return. Clearly not Diana's fault.
I also don't care for the little bits of plastic they have worked into their guns (especially the front sight on my D460) but that isn't exactly a deal breaker. All the important stuff is A-OK. Maybe I've become a little snobbish? Ha ha.
I DO like the performance, and I DO like the various designs. I also worry that they won't be supported in the future, but who can say.
Hopefully, I'll be able to spend plenty of time with all of them!
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I have to say a spirited conversation gentlemen please keep it civil. this has is a good thread please lets keep it that way.
used to be motorhead guys im still a motorhead at 72 and bets are so are you.
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I just want to be clear here. Diana ? Or do you mean Umarex. They're not the same company after all. I think a large number of us have had negative experiences with Umarex which are in no way connected or to blame on Diana. Of course they're no longer involved with any German spring pistons, and its now Blue Line as the middle man.
At that time it was Umarex, yes, now it's Blue Line. And it was escalated to Dana. Now ancient history or will history repeat itself, I won't roll the dice to find out.
Implications, well, in all fairness maybe I should stop writing here and let things play out where they may?
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Denby, those two Diana's I mentioned were both excellent. Especially the D45. Gave me a great opinion of Diana/German springers.
...
At that point I stopped thinking of these German springers as basement-useable alternatives to "real guns" - they now had my full attention, on their own merits.
I'm glad your experiences were positive Brian.
Furthermore, I'd like to think the vast majority are and my situation was a rare occurrence.
You asked a really good question and quite frankly piqued my interest in HW.
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I haven't posted much with this thread, but I have been following it every day. To say the least, it has been interesting and at times, very informative. Thank-you, gentlemen.
I spent part of my working career in sales and marketing, so I do understand some of the excellent comments on the marketing and business aspects of this conversation. I agree that as markets go, we German springer fans are a tiny, though loyal and active, subset of the overall air gun market. To be sure, in our enthusiasm and love of shooting these high end springers, some of us lose a little of this perspective at times. I certainly do, because I seldom visit other gates on this forum, even though I shoot and own all types of air guns.
In particular, I also shoot PCPs, everything from the very basic and affordable all the way up to the very expensive and sophisticated stuff. As amazing as the PCPs are, especially my high end Daystate and Steyr PCPs, my bread and butter every day shooting is still mostly the German springers.
Nevertheless, I do pull out my old bare bones basic and simple Benjamin Discovery PCP a couple times a year, pump it up for the 20 shots it gives me, shoot it out there at 50 yards and then sit back and contemplate how the $150 I spent to get this old and now very dated PCP, pump and all, can deliver such remarkable performance. I may even go on the PCP Gate a few times in the following days out of curiosity. When I do, it's almost as if I've landed on a different planet. What a very different world it is than my familiar and cozy German springer gate.
Ultimately, I go back to my German springers. Never fails. The perspective I get with this little side trip is very healthy, though. It helps to keep me grounded as to where German springers and those of us who love them and shoot them are in the modern air gun world. Doesn't make me love my German springers any less. In fact, it makes me appreciate them all the more for what they are and what they can do in the hands of those of us who love them.
Yes, there are differences between HWs, Dianas, Walthers and FWBs. Discuss it, argue it, but in the end, celebrate it. It's a healthy thing for our corner of the air gun world. Fun, too. :)
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Yeah guys,
If Weihrauch wasn't around .... knowing what I learned (about springers) along the way - I'd buy a D34, D350 and a D54 ........ hands down.
Probably have an AA too.
NCG .... I love my Beeman QB's converted to HPA - they may only cost a meager $180 to make, but boy do they have character ;).
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Is really it about German springers, or more so, just springers in general?
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German, unless there is another group of high quality springer manufacturers outside of Germany. I am leaving Air Arms out of the conversation.
In my experience, only my old Cometa 400 performs like a German springer and while it is very good quality, it's not really in the same class as the German guns. Quite close, but not truly there.
And for me, that's it. BSA doesn't seem to be in the same class, certainly not Gamo or Hatsan, etc or any of the Chinese products regardless of how they are sold.
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"I'm wondering if anyone out there has gone from being "a Diana guy" to Weihrauch, or from Weihrauch to Diana over time. And if so, why?"
If the question include other brands I could answer - my path includes Daisy, RWS, Beeman, HW, and AA.
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German, unless there is another group of high quality springer manufacturers outside of Germany. I am leaving Air Arms out of the conversation.
In my experience, only my old Cometa 400 performs like a German springer and while it is very good quality, it's not really in the same class as the German guns. Quite close, but not truly there.
And for me, that's it. BSA doesn't seem to be in the same class, certainly not Gamo or Hatsan, etc or any of the Chinese products regardless of how they are sold.
Once upon a time BSA made GREAT springers. The first airgun I ever shot was a BSA from the 50's or early 60's. Unfortunately that has not been the case since Thatcher or just after...
-Y
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"I'm wondering if anyone out there has gone from being "a Diana guy" to Weihrauch, or from Weihrauch to Diana over time. And if so, why?"
If the question include other brands I could answer - my path includes Daisy, RWS, Beeman, HW, and AA.
Although I have made some critical comments about Weihrauch, I am definitely not anti Weihrauch. Heck, from the two HW97k's I have owned, my HW97k BlackLine has been the most accurate and easy to shoot springer (even out of the box, no tune) I have ever shot. The reason why I moved over to Diana is that I liked the Diana airguns more in terms of ergonomics for me. Also the reason I have sold my two HW97k's was because they are heavy. And I am a tall strong guy. But most of all, I am not a tinkerer. And with the three HW's I have owned (also incl a HW50s), I didn't liked the shot cycles out of the box (terrible strange moving recoil) + the spring buzz from Weihrauch sounds soo cheap. Last but not least. I like the Diana T06 trigger over the Rekord one from Weihrauch.
Again, I think Weihrauch is a great brand. Still manufacturing heirloom quality airguns. It is just not my brand. I also like the Walthers LGV/LGU/Terrus over Weihrauch, even though the LGV/LGU are heavy as well, but they are better balanced so you don't notice the weight so much.
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Yeah, I sold my (2) HW77K's and HW97 as they were just too heavy and fiddly to shoot.
For me too, I didn't like the ergonomics of the AA Pro-Sport and TX200HC and sold/returned them.
Y - When I speak of BSA ... I mean my R10 PCP - have never shot a BSA Springer ::).
I would have loved to shoot a Walther LGV Master Pro - but I procrastinated until they were discontinued. However, unless it shot like a dream I would've likely sold it due to excessive weight.
The two guns which I still think about buying (I already have 17 :P), would be the FWB Sport or D54 (Red Lami).
FWIW: The Walther LGV Master Pro is another example of an amazing airgun which didn't sell well enough to continue.
The Daisy Red Ryder, Crosman 760 are examples of (relatively inexpensive) guns, which fit the average consumer best and sold in large quantities.
Allowing their companies to buy competitors which made much higher quality guns, but just couldn't compete on quantities sold/revenue.
Hence, quality is NOT the most important criteria to executives/shareholders, especially if their not end users.
We are so lucky Weihrauch kept themselves Family owned!
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Yeah, I sold my (2) HW77K's and HW97 as they were just too heavy and fiddly to shoot.
For me too, I didn't like the ergonomics of the AA Pro-Sport and TX200HC and sold/returned them.
Y - When I speak of BSA ... I mean my R10 PCP - have never shot a BSA Springer ::).
I would have loved to shoot a Walther LGV Master Pro - but I procrastinated until they were discontinued. However, unless it shot like a dream I would've likely sold it due to excessive weight.
The two guns which I still think about buying (I already have 17 :P), would be the FWB Sport or D54 (Red Lami).
FWIW: The Walther LGV Master Pro is another example of an amazing airgun which didn't sell well enough to continue.
The Daisy Red Ryder, Crosman 760 are examples of (relatively inexpensive) guns, which fit the average consumer best and sold in large quantities.
Allowing their companies to buy competitors which made much higher quality guns, but just couldn't compete on quantities sold/revenue.
Hence, quality is NOT the most important criteria to executives/shareholders, especially if their not end users.
We are so lucky Weihrauch kept themselves Family owned!
Amen, we are lucky that there are ANY quality springer still in production.
I too missed out on the Walther LGV...I shot an LGU once but HATE underlevers. ;D
-Y
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FWIW My scoped HW95L .22 weighs 8.7 lbs. Shot cycle.
https://youtu.be/bywPFmB2_ZM (https://youtu.be/bywPFmB2_ZM)
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I don't have access to sales figures, of course, but, yeah, I am grateful and always somewhat surprised that there are still enough of us to keep HW and Diana making quality springers for us. Does make me wonder about the future, though.
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I don't have access to sales figures, of course, but, yeah, I am grateful and always somewhat surprised that there are still enough of us to keep HW and Diana making quality springers for us. Does make me wonder about the future, though.
True. Also good that some of us have a dozen springers each. We may look like a stronger demographic on paper. :) I personally only have 3, all HW's.
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I don't have access to sales figures, of course, but, yeah, I am grateful and always somewhat surprised that there are still enough of us to keep HW and Diana making quality springers for us. Does make me wonder about the future, though.
True. Also good that some of us have a dozen springers each. We may look like a stronger demographic on paper. :) I personally only have 3, all HW's.
Last count I have ten springer. All of them Weihrauchs. I said I was done buying them three rifles ago. Lol
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When I started with air guns, shortly after Walther discontinued the LGU and LGV. I was lucky enough to get the last LGU in Canada. Mine is the Varmit, .22 cal. and a favorite.
I’ve never opened this gun. I will soon. The mechanism is so smooth. The outside is beautifully finished, doesn’t get much better. So sad it’s gone.
I’m guessing the Pro Sport is the next to go. Another favorite of mine. Crow
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I don't have access to sales figures, of course, but, yeah, I am grateful and always somewhat surprised that there are still enough of us to keep HW and Diana making quality springers for us. Does make me wonder about the future, though.
True. Also good that some of us have a dozen springers each. We may look like a stronger demographic on paper. :) I personally only have 3, all HW's.
Last count I have ten springer. All of them Weihrauchs. I said I was done buying them three rifles ago. Lol
I also have 10 springers, 7 Weihrauch and 3 Diana's. I have one Diana I want to get rid of for another HW30.
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Take two of these a day and come back in two weeks…….
https://www.ebay.com/itm/153508781938
I do believe that Weihrauch has made an exceptional offering to us springer folks over the years, and currently parts are abundant with a descent choice of aftermarket currently. I do fear what will happen if / when Vortek or ARH will no longer offer their products.
At that point options will be dwindling for those who do not have the capability to machine their own parts.
I am not a fan of Weihrauch stock internals honestly, but they make an excellent platform to improve upon. And I really can’t stand the new laser etch or the new stocks either. I really wish they would have left that alone.
Jason
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Take two of these a day and come back in two weeks…….
https://www.ebay.com/itm/153508781938
I do believe that Weihrauch has made an exceptional offering to us springer folks over the years, and currently parts are abundant with a descent choice of aftermarket currently. I do fear what will happen if / when Vortek or ARH will no longer offer their products.
At that point options will be dwindling for those who do not have the capability to machine their own parts.
I am not a fan of Weihrauch stock internals honestly, but they make an excellent platform to improve upon. And I really can’t stand the new laser etch or the new stocks either. I really wish they would have left that alone.
Jason
Yeah Jason, the laser etching of the barrels/receivers is a minor abomination relative to going to plastic - but still a minor bummer.
The previous HW80S, HW95 & HW30S stocks were terrible - so they have been improved ........ not the HW50 or standard HW35 -> most split on HW35E.
Of course, Beeman (Goudy) stocks all around would be nirvana, but that ain't gonna happen.
Making your own parts will always be the way to go, especially when a adequate Lathe can be had for the price of a HW80S. If you have more than a few guns, it will pay for itself in just a couple years ;).
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Take two of these a day and come back in two weeks…….
https://www.ebay.com/itm/153508781938
I do believe that Weihrauch has made an exceptional offering to us springer folks over the years, and currently parts are abundant with a descent choice of aftermarket currently. I do fear what will happen if / when Vortek or ARH will no longer offer their products.
At that point options will be dwindling for those who do not have the capability to machine their own parts.
I am not a fan of Weihrauch stock internals honestly, but they make an excellent platform to improve upon. And I really can’t stand the new laser etch or the new stocks either. I really wish they would have left that alone.
Jason
I agree with you on everything but maybe the stocks. To me some of the old stocks looked like ugly pre war antiquities. I think the new stocks are an attempt to prevent the market for high end springers from aging out. More importantly Weihrauch quality has been slipping lately so they may put themselves out of business unless they straighten it out.
As of now I too enjoy having the ARH and Vortek kits available. I'm not looking forward to losing either of them. I'm a long long way away from it but I plan on making my own spring kits in the future. I won't be looking to market them like Jim or Tom.
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The stock on an HW-98 has timeless beauty :-*
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Take two of these a day and come back in two weeks…….
https://www.ebay.com/itm/153508781938
I do believe that Weihrauch has made an exceptional offering to us springer folks over the years, and currently parts are abundant with a descent choice of aftermarket currently. I do fear what will happen if / when Vortek or ARH will no longer offer their products.
At that point options will be dwindling for those who do not have the capability to machine their own parts.
I am not a fan of Weihrauch stock internals honestly, but they make an excellent platform to improve upon. And I really can’t stand the new laser etch or the new stocks either. I really wish they would have left that alone.
Jason
I agree with you on everything but maybe the stocks. To me some of the old stocks looked like ugly pre war antiquities. I think the new stocks are an attempt to prevent the market for high end springers from aging out. More importantly Weihrauch quality has been slipping lately so they may put themselves out of business unless they straighten it out.
As of now I too enjoy having the ARH and Vortek kits available. I'm not looking forward to losing either of them. I'm a long long way away from it but I plan on making my own spring kits in the future. I won't be looking to market them like Jim or Tom.
Here is a link to a nib HW 80 I brought back to life several years ago, now this stock I really liked the way it shouldered. I also enjoyed the hand cut checkering, I am old fashioned in some ways. I don’t like the advertising on the new ones,
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=158439.0
Jason
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ummm yeah as far as spring rifles go........ummmm well I have two PCP that's easy to count........spring rifles.....hmmm a few, lets call it a few. :D :-[
While I do like PCP rifles and really love my two little AirArms S200's I find them sort of sterile in nature. They are very easy to shoot and lack a certain....."soul" if you will for me personally. Most of the time when I shoot almost any PCP rifle I find myself thinking I'd rather be shooting a powder burner. There are however times I am shooting a power burner where I find myself thinking I'd much rather be shooting one of my springers.
For me, personally, there is an art to shooting a spring gun and it requires a bit more dedication/technique and even once you get it down you never get it perfect. Its much like driving a manual transmission. Is it the best choice, of course not, is it more engaging, yes absolutely for me. The fact that I can just grab a springer and a tin and shoot 5 shots or 500 shots with no muss no fuss just adds to the experience.
So yeah, I am a springer guy at heart. I mean I am a GUN GUY through and through from nerf to nail to belt fed but as far as airguns go I just like the routine, the slowness, the very manual nature of it all when it comes to shooting a spring rifle.
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The stock on an HW-98 has timeless beauty :-*
I think so, too, given my target shooting background. I'm very much a form follows function type of shooter and very much appreciate stocks designed for specific types of shooting. In that respect, the 98 stock is a classic. It's still one of the HW break barrels I've yet to own, though.
Since everyone seems to be taking inventory, I'm now at 13 springers, 8 being HWs, 2 being FWB Sports, with a few mint oldies, those being a late 80s RWS 45, a Slavia (CZ) 613 and the rare bird of the group, a Benjamin Sterling HR81 under lever, this being Benjamin's attempt to get into the serious springer game just prior to being bought out by Ctosman.
That's down quite a few, though, since I've sold off most of the under levers due to weight and my preference for break barrels. At one time, though, I owned all three models of the AA under levers. Fine, fine springers, but just too massive for my tastes. Little too ornate, as well.
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Take two of these a day and come back in two weeks…….
https://www.ebay.com/itm/153508781938
I do believe that Weihrauch has made an exceptional offering to us springer folks over the years, and currently parts are abundant with a descent choice of aftermarket currently. I do fear what will happen if / when Vortek or ARH will no longer offer their products.
At that point options will be dwindling for those who do not have the capability to machine their own parts.
I am not a fan of Weihrauch stock internals honestly, but they make an excellent platform to improve upon. And I really can’t stand the new laser etch or the new stocks either. I really wish they would have left that alone.
Jason
I agree with you on everything but maybe the stocks. To me some of the old stocks looked like ugly pre war antiquities. I think the new stocks are an attempt to prevent the market for high end springers from aging out. More importantly Weihrauch quality has been slipping lately so they may put themselves out of business unless they straighten it out.
As of now I too enjoy having the ARH and Vortek kits available. I'm not looking forward to losing either of them. I'm a long long way away from it but I plan on making my own spring kits in the future. I won't be looking to market them like Jim or Tom.
Here is a link to a nib HW 80 I brought back to life several years ago, now this stock I really liked the way it shouldered. I also enjoyed the hand cut checkering, I am old fashioned in some ways. I don’t like the advertising on the new ones,
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=158439.0
Jason
I agree with you on that particular 80 stock. They haven't had that stock in decades. There's been many years of uglier utilitarian stocks with terrible pressed checkering in between that stock and the newest stocks. I'd rather have your Mk1 or a R1 Goudy stock than the current stock but I'd rather have a new stock over the last generation of base model 80 stocks.
Honestly rifle stocks are somewhat subjective. A lot like men's preferences in women. I'm more concerned in the turn down in quality. Dressing up a poorly made rifle doesn't improve its performance.
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The stock on an HW-98 has timeless beauty :-*
I think so, too, given my target shooting background. I'm very much a form follows function type of shooter and very much appreciate stocks designed for specific types of shooting. In that respect, the 98 stock is a classic. It's still one of the HW break barrels I've yet to own, though.
Since everyone seems to be taking inventory, I'm now at 13 springers, 8 being HWs, 2 being FWB Sports, with a few mint oldies, those being a late 80s RWS 45, a Slavia (CZ) 613 and the rare bird of the group, a Benjamin Sterling HR81 under lever, this being Benjamin's attempt to get into the serious springer game just prior to being bought out by Ctosman.
That's down quite a few, though, since I've sold off most of the under levers due to weight and my preference for break barrels. At one time, though, I owned all three models of the AA under levers. Fine, fine springers, but just too massive for my tastes. Little too ornate, as well.
Inventory, hmmm, how about favorites? My Henry can literally put 3 in the same hole at 25 yards with a scope on it but it's pretty low on my favorites list. The 1934 Winchester model 67 has a 28" barrel, no scope, no rails for a scope, sloppy bolt, but a very nice, small front bead sight, points like a dream, likes colibri's (!) and fires them so quietly hitting the target is louder than the report. And, it's a very well balanced rifle.
2nd fav gotta be the Daisy 880 with no-name 4X scope.
Which one of those 13 is your favorite?
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Don't make me count my springers.. even I don't know how many I have anymore. ::)
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The stock on an HW-98 has timeless beauty :-*
I think so, too, given my target shooting background. I'm very much a form follows function type of shooter and very much appreciate stocks designed for specific types of shooting. In that respect, the 98 stock is a classic. It's still one of the HW break barrels I've yet to own, though.
Since everyone seems to be taking inventory, I'm now at 13 springers, 8 being HWs, 2 being FWB Sports, with a few mint oldies, those being a late 80s RWS 45, a Slavia (CZ) 613 and the rare bird of the group, a Benjamin Sterling HR81 under lever, this being Benjamin's attempt to get into the serious springer game just prior to being bought out by Ctosman.
That's down quite a few, though, since I've sold off most of the under levers due to weight and my preference for break barrels. At one time, though, I owned all three models of the AA under levers. Fine, fine springers, but just too massive for my tastes. Little too ornate, as well.
Inventory, hmmm, how about favorites? My Henry can literally put 3 in the same hole at 25 yards with a scope on it but it's pretty low on my favorites list. The 1934 Winchester model 67 has a 28" barrel, no scope, no rails for a scope, sloppy bolt, but a very nice, small front bead sight, points like a dream, likes colibri's (!) and fires them so quietly hitting the target is louder than the report. And, it's a very well balanced rifle.
2nd fav gotta be the Daisy 880 with no-name 4X scope.
Which one of those 13 is your favorite?
I shoot the HW30, HW50the most, so I could make a case for them being my favorites, but when it comes to accuracy, the FWB Sport is still one of my go to AGs.
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The stock on an HW-98 has timeless beauty :-*
I think so, too, given my target shooting background. I'm very much a form follows function type of shooter and very much appreciate stocks designed for specific types of shooting. In that respect, the 98 stock is a classic. It's still one of the HW break barrels I've yet to own, though.
Since everyone seems to be taking inventory, I'm now at 13 springers, 8 being HWs, 2 being FWB Sports, with a few mint oldies, those being a late 80s RWS 45, a Slavia (CZ) 613 and the rare bird of the group, a Benjamin Sterling HR81 under lever, this being Benjamin's attempt to get into the serious springer game just prior to being bought out by Ctosman.
That's down quite a few, though, since I've sold off most of the under levers due to weight and my preference for break barrels. At one time, though, I owned all three models of the AA under levers. Fine, fine springers, but just too massive for my tastes. Little too ornate, as well.
Inventory, hmmm, how about favorites? My Henry can literally put 3 in the same hole at 25 yards with a scope on it but it's pretty low on my favorites list. The 1934 Winchester model 67 has a 28" barrel, no scope, no rails for a scope, sloppy bolt, but a very nice, small front bead sight, points like a dream, likes colibri's (!) and fires them so quietly hitting the target is louder than the report. And, it's a very well balanced rifle.
2nd fav gotta be the Daisy 880 with no-name 4X scope.
Which one of those 13 is your favorite?
I shoot the HW30, HW50the most, so I could make a case for them being my favorites, but when it comes to accuracy, the FWB Sport is still one of my go to AGs.
Funny that, almost ordered an HW30s today, was a tie between that and XS60C...
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Funny that, almost ordered an HW30s today, was a tie between that and XS60C..
Get the HW30s. Its an amazing, accurate, FUN, little rifle.
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Get one now and the other later. The key to that is to buy the one that might go away first. It's my opinion that the XS60C will go away first.
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Exactly my thoughts Bill.
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No true airgunner ever said "This is my last airgun purchase" and stuck to it.
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I'll say it again...
FWB Baby!
Make you throw rocks at HW and Diana.
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You guys nailed it :-)
I'll be taking a voluntary retirement offer and am already looking for another job (not interested in leaving the job market yet at 67...), so if I land something decent I'll order the HW30...
Well, don't wanna stray off topic
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I'll say it again...
FWB Baby!
Make you throw rocks at HW and Diana.
Aren't they pricy Scott?
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As far as stocks go, I was underwhelmed by the cartoonish looking current HW30s stock. It seemed pretty superficial to me.
Of course, if I had my way they would all come with a Bayern-style stock like the old HW35 Lux... 😁
However, I bought one recently and I changed my mind fast. The stock has great proportions, and doesn't seem cartoonish or superficial in person.
Mine was "pre-owned" and so far has proven to be a gem. Does everything just right, the way a new owner hopes. Smooth and clean cocking, shooting very accurately at the correct power level, etc. The surprisingly good stock is just a little lagniappe to me.
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I'll say it again...
FWB Baby!
Make you throw rocks at HW and Diana.
Aren't they pricy Scott?
Yes... kinda, but I didn't know that was a prerequisite to the topic. ;)
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I haven't posted much with this thread, but I have been following it every day. To say the least, it has been interesting and at times, very informative. Thank-you, gentlemen.
I spent part of my working career in sales and marketing, so I do understand some of the excellent comments on the marketing and business aspects of this conversation. I agree that as markets go, we German springer fans are a tiny, though loyal and active, subset of the overall air gun market. To be sure, in our enthusiasm and love of shooting these high end springers, some of us lose a little of this perspective at times. I certainly do, because I seldom visit other gates on this forum, even though I shoot and own all types of air guns.
In particular, I also shoot PCPs, everything from the very basic and affordable all the way up to the very expensive and sophisticated stuff. As amazing as the PCPs are, especially my high end Daystate and Steyr PCPs, my bread and butter every day shooting is still mostly the German springers.
Nevertheless, I do pull out my old bare bones basic and simple Benjamin Discovery PCP a couple times a year, pump it up for the 20 shots it gives me, shoot it out there at 50 yards and then sit back and contemplate how the $150 I spent to get this old and now very dated PCP, pump and all, can deliver such remarkable performance. I may even go on the PCP Gate a few times in the following days out of curiosity. When I do, it's almost as if I've landed on a different planet. What a very different world it is than my familiar and cozy German springer gate.
Ultimately, I go back to my German springers. Never fails. The perspective I get with this little side trip is very healthy, though. It helps to keep me grounded as to where German springers and those of us who love them and shoot them are in the modern air gun world. Doesn't make me love my German springers any less. In fact, it makes me appreciate them all the more for what they are and what they can do in the hands of those of us who love them.
Yes, there are differences between HWs, Dianas, Walthers and FWBs. Discuss it, argue it, but in the end, celebrate it. It's a healthy thing for our corner of the air gun world. Fun, too. :)
Joanie
Very well written post with some real thought, and some long-term experience with the airguns you are speaking about. Thank You!
I really liked your comment about the Benjamin Discovery (even though it isn't very German, ha ha). When Crosman got serious about making an "Everyone's PCP", they started with a 2260 and had a nice prototype shooting with confidence within a couple of months. Not perfect, but a super value, and the rest is history.
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I do believe that Weihrauch has made an exceptional offering to us springer folks over the years, and currently parts are abundant with a descent choice of aftermarket currently. I do fear what will happen if / when Vortek or ARH will no longer offer their products.
At that point options will be dwindling for those who do not have the capability to machine their own parts.
This gets to the heart of the matter. Getting Weihrauchs to shoot as expected requires the use of aftermarket parts, whether custom-fitted or not.
My 2018 HW95L .22 cal didn't get any better with 1200+ spent pellets: it was still loud, twangy, jumpy and just unpleasant to use, even if you leave out the fact that one cannot use the factory-supplied open sights due to stock configuration across a range of recent Weihrauchs.
My 2018 D48 .22 cal was quite terrible to shoot when new: very loud, shaky, near-violent. After 1200+ pellets it had basically transformed: it was just about as smooth as my V-Mach-equipped D52. The stock afforded the use of open sights or optics, like every other Diana I've ever shot. The gun shot smoothly and very accurately at 22 fpe, which people in the know say no coilspring HW can do, Mark.
My 2018 LGV Master Ultra .22 cal was simply exquisite from the get go. So, this is how a high-end springer is like. Weihrauchs and Dianas are like a couple full steps below.
Early on, I was stunned to learn my new Weihrauch shot real-life, high-BC pellets a full 100 fps slower than what the manufacturer claims. My Dianas shoot just what the "tin" says with real-life lead, as do my Walther and as I hear the late FWB Sport shot. So, Weihrauch is the only German make who cannot reach the manufacturer's claim. And no, 230m/s / 755 fps isn't hard to reach, and yes, it is a ton better for a field gun than 200m/s / 655 fps.
The myopia AND tunnel-vision present upthread, taking a single American airgun retailer's online shop outward appearances as proof that Diana doesn't sell, is quite something to behold. As I said uphtread, there are entire nations on this globe where Dianas are the German springers to have; Weihrauchs get a "who?" response instead, and you have to do some hunting to find one to buy, Kirk.
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I'll say it again...
FWB Baby!
Make you throw rocks at HW and Diana.
Aren't they pricy Scott?
Yes... kinda, but I didn't know that was a prerequisite to the topic. ;)
Yeah Hoosier,
Price really shouldn't be a factor, even though when you start talking AA ..... $1,000 is now part of the narrative (however, they're not German).
My Deal Breaker - is that were talking Side Lever again. I know this likely paints me as a "Persnickety, Old Man", but removes it from the Simplicity/Nirvana -> I assign to Break Barrels.
Yes, this means I find Under Lever's in violation of the simplicity principal too!
Just give me a simple, German Break Barrel ;).
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Duke, I just bought a brand new HW95 from AoA and chronied it at 710 with 14.66 FTTs for 16+ fpe.
Also picked up a used (and apparently OEM) HW30s that's giving me 700 with 7 grain Meisterkugeln and 715 with 7 grain GECO wadcutters.
I believe both hit factory claims.
If others don't, then I'd say Weihrauch has some product inconsistency.
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I'll say it again...
FWB Baby!
Make you throw rocks at HW and Diana.
Aren't they pricy Scott?
Yes... kinda, but I didn't know that was a prerequisite to the topic. ;)
Yeah Hoosier,
Price really shouldn't be a factor, even though when you start talking AA ..... $1,000 is now part of the narrative (however, they're not German).
My Deal Breaker - is that were talking Side Lever again. I know this likely paints me as a "Persnickety, Old Man", but removes it from the Simplicity/Nirvana -> I assign to Break Barrels.
Yes, this means I find Under Lever's in violation of the simplicity principal too!
Just give me a simple, German Break Barrel ;).
Break barrels are more convenient to load/cock for sure I've always enjoyed shooting them. However I prefer sliding compression chambers though, as there aren't any sharp edges to cut the piston seal, can be easily replaced, and seem to me to be usually more concentric. My personal favorite is the tx200hc because they are so easily serviceable, perfectly sized/balanced, plus they fit me perfectly. The Weihrauchs I have are great shooters but for me the biggest PITA to disassemble/service. The Diana 54/56 while they are big girls, when dialed in correctly, are my preferred rifle for longer distance hunting shots, and pesting is my primary airgun use.
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I do believe that Weihrauch has made an exceptional offering to us springer folks over the years, and currently parts are abundant with a descent choice of aftermarket currently. I do fear what will happen if / when Vortek or ARH will no longer offer their products.
At that point options will be dwindling for those who do not have the capability to machine their own parts.
This gets to the heart of the matter. Getting Weihrauchs to shoot as expected requires the use of aftermarket parts, whether custom-fitted or not.
My 2018 HW95L .22 cal didn't get any better with 1200+ spent pellets: it was still loud, twangy, jumpy and just unpleasant to use, even if you leave out the fact that one cannot use the factory-supplied open sights due to stock configuration across a range of recent Weihrauchs.
My 2018 D48 .22 cal was quite terrible to shoot when new: very loud, shaky, near-violent. After 1200+ pellets it had basically transformed: it was just about as smooth as my V-Mach-equipped D52. The stock afforded the use of open sights or optics, like every other Diana I've ever shot. The gun shot smoothly and very accurately at 22 fpe, which people in the know say no coilspring HW can do, Mark.
My 2018 LGV Master Ultra .22 cal was simply exquisite from the get go. So, this is how a high-end springer is like. Weihrauchs and Dianas are like a couple full steps below.
Early on, I was stunned to learn my new Weihrauch shot real-life, high-BC pellets a full 100 fps slower than what the manufacturer claims. My Dianas shoot just what the "tin" says with real-life lead, as do my Walther and as I hear the late FWB Sport shot. So, Weihrauch is the only German make who cannot reach the manufacturer's claim. And no, 230m/s / 755 fps isn't hard to reach, and yes, it is a ton better for a field gun than 200m/s / 655 fps.
The myopia AND tunnel-vision present upthread, taking a single American airgun retailer's online shop outward appearances as proof that Diana doesn't sell, is quite something to behold. As I said uphtread, there are entire nations on this globe where Dianas are the German springers to have; Weihrauchs get a "who?" response instead, and you have to do some hunting to find one to buy, Kirk.
It's true I've got an aversion to doing business with Diana, and have never seen an HW.
However, I've extensively, exhaustively researched both.
You probably couldn't give me a Diana rifle, but from what I'm reading about Weihrauch I'm certain beyond doubt they have far fewer defective rifles leaving the factory. It also appears when it does happen they don't ignore the remedy side of the equation.
I'm not writing this to (intentionally) bash Diana, but it appears to me they are not in the same league.
I hope you know I mean no disrespect Duke, maybe you just have the same luck I do. If they make 10,000 perfect guns and one lemon, I will get that lemon...
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I'll say it again...
FWB Baby!
Make you throw rocks at HW and Diana.
Aren't they pricy Scott?
Yes... kinda, but I didn't know that was a prerequisite to the topic. ;)
Yeah Hoosier,
Price really shouldn't be a factor, even though when you start talking AA ..... $1,000 is now part of the narrative (however, they're not German).
My Deal Breaker - is that were talking Side Lever again. I know this likely paints me as a "Persnickety, Old Man", but removes it from the Simplicity/Nirvana -> I assign to Break Barrels.
Yes, this means I find Under Lever's in violation of the simplicity principal too!
Just give me a simple, German Break Barrel[/u] ;).
So... something like this? ;D
-
I'll say it again...
FWB Baby!
Make you throw rocks at HW and Diana.
Aren't they pricy Scott?
Yes... kinda, but I didn't know that was a prerequisite to the topic. ;)
Yeah Hoosier,
Price really shouldn't be a factor, even though when you start talking AA ..... $1,000 is now part of the narrative (however, they're not German).
My Deal Breaker - is that were talking Side Lever again. I know this likely paints me as a "Persnickety, Old Man", but removes it from the Simplicity/Nirvana -> I assign to Break Barrels.
Yes, this means I find Under Lever's in violation of the simplicity principal too!
Just give me a simple, German Break Barrel[/u] ;).
So... something like this? ;D
Hoos....
I can't tell what that is, but it looks like a break barrel - so yes!
I'd love to shoot a FWB 124.
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It is in fact a FWB 124 Deluxe...
Wearing one of your fine muzzle brakes I might add. :D
And yes , you do need to shoot one.
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I can’t say I enjoy a TO1 trigger blade or system compared to the Rekord or CDT.
In fact it is the only reason I am considering selling my 52 .25 although I have to test against the English Patriot and HW90/RX2 .25’s.
The 52 can print sub 1/2” at 72 yards with 20.14 FTT in no wind, rested, at what should be more like 740 but is probably only 680 at most right now. At least John in PA said that the longer stroke TO1 should be able to with 20 grain.
I’m just starting my airgun tip, mod, realities, group shooting and discussion channel on YouTube and Instagram. Yes I have been around over 15 years but just getting into anything Social Media other than these forums.
I’m grateful for the opportunity to learn and experience all because of these forums. No great real airgun store around me lol. Never would have seen them otherwise!
I’m considering going to the biggest show in VA this March/April. 1300 tables and an older Air Force friend really needs help watching & getting all his archery equipment in.
I’m wondering if anything airgun related would be there. If it’s worth bringing airguns that I would need bigger money for. Like maybe a .257 Scandalous or something. I don’t think people start paying 2700+ for any “toy.”
Sad that they think that. I’ve shot more from my porch out to 300 than most ever get to. If I had to go to a “range” to be hit with hot brass as a lefty? Nope
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Yes, I have gotten some fine deals on AirGuns at Gun shows because people look at them as "toys".
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I'm somewhat interested in lots of springers, including German springers but the only one I really want is the FWB 124. I'm still kicking myself re the last auction. There was a FWB 124 that went for $180. It had some cosmetic issues but was probably well worth the price.
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I can’t say I enjoy a TO1 trigger blade or system compared to the Rekord or CDT.
In fact it is the only reason I am considering selling my 52 .25 although I have to test against the English Patriot and HW90/RX2 .25’s.
The 52 can print sub 1/2” at 72 yards with 20.14 FTT in no wind, rested, at what should be more like 740 but is probably only 680 at most right now. At least John in PA said that the longer stroke TO1 should be able to with 20 grain.
I’m just starting my airgun tip, mod, realities, group shooting and discussion channel on YouTube and Instagram. Yes I have been around over 15 years but just getting into anything Social Media other than these forums.
I’m grateful for the opportunity to learn and experience all because of these forums. No great real airgun store around me lol. Never would have seen them otherwise!
I’m considering going to the biggest show in VA this March/April. 1300 tables and an older Air Force friend really needs help watching & getting all his archery equipment in.
I’m wondering if anything airgun related would be there. If it’s worth bringing airguns that I would need bigger money for. Like maybe a .257 Scandalous or something. I don’t think people start paying 2700+ for any “toy.”
Sad that they think that. I’ve shot more from my porch out to 300 than most ever get to. If I had to go to a “range” to be hit with hot brass as a lefty? Nope
Trying to get your 15 minutes are you?
-Y
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I have several of both and definitely prefer the Weihrauchs over the Diana but that little D34 is probably the most versatile gun in the bunch. From 12ftlbs up to 20ftlbs that gun just shoots great. That being said neither are really my favorite German springers. I'd probably say Feinwerkbau is #1 with Walther as a close second. Then again Diana and Weihrauch both make my two favorite guns, the D75 amd th HW55.
The more I type here the more I'm realizing I really couldn't pick an absolute favorite German springer company. They've all added a ton of value to the industry and I appreciate them all.
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Jon, when I wrote the first post I was limited in my scope, as FWB really doesn't have a "line up" and Walthers are awfully scarce in my circles. But it could have been, and maybe should have been, more open ended.
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Jon, when I wrote the first post I was limited in my scope, as FWB really doesn't have a "line up" and Walthers are awfully scarce in my circles. But it could have been, and maybe should have been, more open ended.
Brian,
Since both Walther and FWB are out of the springer market, at present, you were correct in not including them.
If somebody asks, "what is the best American made car?" the answer should not be Packard! ;D 8) ;)
-Y
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Springers last a long time Yogi.
I really wanted to know if people had changed their preference over time, and in which direction.
I wasn't trying to stick to current production, though it seems pretty natural to assume that.
If someone were to say that they've sold off all of their other springers for old Walthers because of design and/or quality differences, that would be right on the mark.
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Jon, when I wrote the first post I was limited in my scope, as FWB really doesn't have a "line up" and Walthers are awfully scarce in my circles. But it could have been, and maybe should have been, more open ended.
Brian,
Since both Walther and FWB are out of the springer market, at present, you were correct in not including them.
If somebody asks, "what is the best American made car?" the answer should not be Packard! ;D 8) ;)
-Y
The reason why Weihrauch and Diana are still in the game is because they make guns to a cheaper standard and therefore have kept prices a bit more reasonable in a day and age where PCPs are king. Their performance is great but the build quality is lacking in comparison to Walther and FWB. Walther with their double walled tube and that spring loaded synthetic cocking arm guide and FWB with basically everything including the engineering. The new Sport may be the best engineered break barrel to date. No matter where that gun recoils it puts a pellet in the same spot every time. I know some people will say "Oh but the plastic trigger guard on the Sport and trigger on LGU/LGV" but my response is a simple "who cares?". I've seen just as many broken metal triggers as I have plastic ones.
I bring this up in the hopes that Walther and FWB get back in the game. Their products were nothing short of fantastic and deserve to still be made. Same reason I will still say the ASP20 is the best hunting break barrel. I hope SIG sees the positivity and decides to take another shot at it even if the price is higher.
-
Jon, when I wrote the first post I was limited in my scope, as FWB really doesn't have a "line up" and Walthers are awfully scarce in my circles. But it could have been, and maybe should have been, more open ended.
Brian,
Since both Walther and FWB are out of the springer market, at present, you were correct in not including them.
If somebody asks, "what is the best American made car?" the answer should not be Packard! ;D 8) ;)
-Y
The reason why Weihrauch and Diana are still in the game is because they make guns to a cheaper standard and therefore have kept prices a bit more reasonable in a day and age where PCPs are king. Their performance is great but the build quality is lacking in comparison to Walther and FWB. Walther with their double walled tube and that spring loaded synthetic cocking arm guide and FWB with basically everything including the engineering. The new Sport may be the best engineered break barrel to date. No matter where that gun recoils it puts a pellet in the same spot every time. I know some people will say "Oh but the plastic trigger guard on the Sport and trigger on LGU/LGV" but my response is a simple "who cares?". I've seen just as many broken metal triggers as I have plastic ones.
I bring this up in the hopes that Walther and FWB get back in the game. Their products were nothing short of fantastic and deserve to still be made. Same reason I will still say the ASP20 is the best hunting break barrel. I hope SIG sees the positivity and decides to take another shot at it even if the price is higher.
Well, since we're going off the rail here... I've only owned a couple German airguns and and neither one hit the bullseye any different than any other springer I own. Hitting the bullseye is the goal. I have some really great shooting springers that make me smile every time and none of them are German made. But if it really matters to you what you use to hit that bullseye that's fine... use it. That's why all the cars parked in the parking lot at the mall aren't the same brand. ;)
Sorry, back to your comparisons among the German guns now. ;D
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Jon, when I wrote the first post I was limited in my scope, as FWB really doesn't have a "line up" and Walthers are awfully scarce in my circles. But it could have been, and maybe should have been, more open ended.
Brian,
Since both Walther and FWB are out of the springer market, at present, you were correct in not including them.
If somebody asks, "what is the best American made car?" the answer should not be Packard! ;D 8) ;)
-Y
The reason why Weihrauch and Diana are still in the game is because they make guns to a cheaper standard and therefore have kept prices a bit more reasonable in a day and age where PCPs are king. Their performance is great but the build quality is lacking in comparison to Walther and FWB. Walther with their double walled tube and that spring loaded synthetic cocking arm guide and FWB with basically everything including the engineering. The new Sport may be the best engineered break barrel to date. No matter where that gun recoils it puts a pellet in the same spot every time. I know some people will say "Oh but the plastic trigger guard on the Sport and trigger on LGU/LGV" but my response is a simple "who cares?". I've seen just as many broken metal triggers as I have plastic ones.
I bring this up in the hopes that Walther and FWB get back in the game. Their products were nothing short of fantastic and deserve to still be made. Same reason I will still say the ASP20 is the best hunting break barrel. I hope SIG sees the positivity and decides to take another shot at it even if the price is higher.
Well, since we're going off the rail here... I've only owned a couple German airguns and and neither one hit the bullseye any different than any other springer I own. Hitting the bullseye is the goal. I have some really great shooting springers that make me smile every time and none of them are German made. But if it really matters to you what you use to hit that bullseye that's fine... use it. That's why all the cars parked in the parking lot at the mall aren't the same brand. ;)
Sorry, back to your comparisons among the German guns now. ;D
The comment wasn't off the rails at all. The original post asks "Which German springers are your favorites and why?" My response leans heavily on the "why".
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I read that. It ended in a "but". Then I read the first line in the actual post that continued the statement. ;)
Then farther down in the thread the OP kinda opened it up to go off the rail as others already had. I wasn't thumbing my nose at you, or anyone else for that matter.
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I just wouldn't call it "going off the rails" is all. The original question had been asked and answered for 12 pages. Expanding to other German manufacturers is just a natural progression of things. Weihrauch is the best currently made collection but the best German springer period? Not at all in my opinion.
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The reason why Weihrauch and Diana are still in the game is because they make guns to a cheaper standard and therefore have kept prices a bit more reasonable in a day and age where PCPs are king. Their performance is great but the build quality is lacking in comparison to Walther and FWB. Walther with their double walled tube and that spring loaded synthetic cocking arm guide and FWB with basically everything including the engineering. The new Sport may be the best engineered break barrel to date. No matter where that gun recoils it puts a pellet in the same spot every time. I know some people will say "Oh but the plastic trigger guard on the Sport and trigger on LGU/LGV" but my response is a simple "who cares?". I've seen just as many broken metal triggers as I have plastic ones.
I bring this up in the hopes that Walther and FWB get back in the game. Their products were nothing short of fantastic and deserve to still be made. Same reason I will still say the ASP20 is the best hunting break barrel. I hope SIG sees the positivity and decides to take another shot at it even if the price is higher.
Hello Jon!
Nice to see another spring-gun dedicated airgunsmith. Nice website.
Sadly, SIG is going to be too busy with military contracts for the next decade or two, to even think about airguns.
Walther "jumped the gun" and got out of the spring-piston market a year before the Century Varmint (a gun built to a reasonable budget) could take hold and start selling in substantial numbers.
FWB decided to concentrate on the high end, Match style, PCP's, same as Anschütz.
Now, in a somewhat impolite honesty, I would not consider the ASP-10 a German springer. Designed and made in the USA it carried a lot of practical, Yankee style, engineering. The brand may be part of a German group; same group as DIANA and, MAYBE one of the reasons the TOP-TOP-TOP brass decided that one company should not tread on the toes of a "sister company", plus the fact of the long term liability of the complex service issues, and cut the ASP-10's wings.
In any case, the REAL point is that it seems that we, airgunners, want to have our cake and eat it too because we want "quality" (whatever that is for each one of us) at UN-reasonable prices. And that is why I say that we are our own best enemies.
:-(
Congrats on your website, keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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The reason why Weihrauch and Diana are still in the game is because they make guns to a cheaper standard and therefore have kept prices a bit more reasonable in a day and age where PCPs are king. Their performance is great but the build quality is lacking in comparison to Walther and FWB. Walther with their double walled tube and that spring loaded synthetic cocking arm guide and FWB with basically everything including the engineering. The new Sport may be the best engineered break barrel to date. No matter where that gun recoils it puts a pellet in the same spot every time. I know some people will say "Oh but the plastic trigger guard on the Sport and trigger on LGU/LGV" but my response is a simple "who cares?". I've seen just as many broken metal triggers as I have plastic ones.
I bring this up in the hopes that Walther and FWB get back in the game. Their products were nothing short of fantastic and deserve to still be made. Same reason I will still say the ASP20 is the best hunting break barrel. I hope SIG sees the positivity and decides to take another shot at it even if the price is higher.
Hello Jon!
Nice to see another spring-gun dedicated airgunsmith. Nice website.
Sadly, SIG is going to be too busy with military contracts for the next decade or two, to even think about airguns.
Walther "jumped the gun" and got out of the spring-piston market a year before the Century Varmint (a gun built to a reasonable budget) could take hold and start selling in substantial numbers.
FWB decided to concentrate on the high end, Match style, PCP's, same as Anschütz.
Now, in a somewhat impolite honesty, I would not consider the ASP-10 a German springer. Designed and made in the USA it carried a lot of practical, Yankee style, engineering. The brand may be part of a German group; same group as DIANA and, MAYBE one of the reasons the TOP-TOP-TOP brass decided that one company should not tread on the toes of a "sister company", plus the fact of the long term liability of the complex service issues, and cut the ASP-10's wings.
In any case, the REAL point is that it seems that we, airgunners, want to have our cake and eat it too because we want "quality" (whatever that is for each one of us) at UN-reasonable prices. And that is why I say that we are our own best enemies.
:-(
Congrats on your website, keep well and shoot straight!
HM
Hey Hector! Long time no see. Hope all is well! Looks like you got that LGV of yours kicking some butt the last few matches before winter.
Sadly I know you're right on all accounts. Not many people are willing to spend $1k+ on a springer and truthfully I can't blame them. I think thats how Weihrauch and Diana have managed to stay in buisness all these years. An overall excellent product with production costs cut where they wouldn't matter so much. My one hope for the future is that FWB decides to once again go back to their roots and put out something. Maybe in a decade or two 😆
I hadn't actually considered the ASP to be German although that logic would check out. As far as I knew the were designed and made here in the US. I was unaware of their parent company and appreciate the correction there.
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Jon, when I wrote the first post I was limited in my scope, as FWB really doesn't have a "line up" and Walthers are awfully scarce in my circles. But it could have been, and maybe should have been, more open ended.
Brian,
Since both Walther and FWB are out of the springer market, at present, you were correct in not including them.
If somebody asks, "what is the best American made car?" the answer should not be Packard! ;D 8) ;)
-Y
The reason why Weihrauch and Diana are still in the game is because they make guns to a cheaper standard and therefore have kept prices a bit more reasonable in a day and age where PCPs are king. Their performance is great but the build quality is lacking in comparison to Walther and FWB. Walther with their double walled tube and that spring loaded synthetic cocking arm guide and FWB with basically everything including the engineering. The new Sport may be the best engineered break barrel to date. No matter where that gun recoils it puts a pellet in the same spot every time. I know some people will say "Oh but the plastic trigger guard on the Sport and trigger on LGU/LGV" but my response is a simple "who cares?". I've seen just as many broken metal triggers as I have plastic ones.
I bring this up in the hopes that Walther and FWB get back in the game. Their products were nothing short of fantastic and deserve to still be made. Same reason I will still say the ASP20 is the best hunting break barrel. I hope SIG sees the positivity and decides to take another shot at it even if the price is higher.
While the FWB Sport, Walther LGV/LGU and SIG ASP 20 had some new, revolutionary qualities - they were frankly discontinued because they couldn't sell them. Apparently, not good enough.
Kinda like the DeLorean - big splash when they hit the market ..... then a financial dog because those qualities were not appreciated by enough people.
While Weihrauch has pedestrian internals, overall - they're pretty fine rifles. You're right though, adding basic inflation - going back to the 1980's, their current offerings are well below what they should be. There relatively (unchanged) designs are very simple which has been one of the reasons they're so durable.
Beeman obviously pick them for his R1 design for a reason.
I see your website offerings are pretty much Cometa springers from Spain. I wouldn't exactly call this inventory quality German rifles, but you're trying to eat.
I think if you sold what your exposing, you'd be out of business ...... which is why Diana is now selling Chinese guns.
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The title of the thread to me makes a statement that is qualified with the but . The first sentence then goes on to seek a comparison. I am still hung up on the but. Yes we do like German springers and the Weihrauchs are good . As good as you could wish for in what they provide in the HW range .
The information that Hector and others have offered is enlightening. The path that Diana,seems to be setting up doesn' t bode well for people like me . I am still disappointed at the quality of the D 340 N tech that I had . I wanted a cracker hunting gun and it fell far short of the mark . I was not and still not prepared to buy a very expensive D460 or even a D350. The reports,are just not good enough.
The but for me is that Gamo fills the slot that I am interested in and at a much lesser price .
This is a very good thread that I have appreciated but it does not come up with any useful conclusion because it didn't really set out to do that and it leaves me seeking more . I can-t quite define what that more is. Just a nice rifle that shoots well and HW fits that criteria but .......if you read this garbage then you now know that your time would have been better spent shooting.
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if you read this garbage then you now know that your time would have been better spent shooting.
Couldn't agree more after reading all 12 pages!
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This is a very good thread that I have appreciated, but it leaves me seeking more. I can't quite define what that more is, but .......if you read this garbage then you now know that your time would have been better spent shooting.
Like a good pulp novel, it's content may not completely satisfy you, but you can't stop reading .............. ;).
Some people will always like Weihrauch more and some folks will always prefer Diana.
Like cigarette ads of the 1970's, some people would rather fight than switch :o.
As Springer enthusiasts, we have been lucky Weihrauch remains Family owned, because when accountants get involved in something other than numbers, bad things happen.
If Weihrauch sold out to some business conglomerate, the HW 57 would be cut with the first cost/benefit analysis.
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Jon, when I wrote the first post I was limited in my scope, as FWB really doesn't have a "line up" and Walthers are awfully scarce in my circles. But it could have been, and maybe should have been, more open ended.
Brian,
Since both Walther and FWB are out of the springer market, at present, you were correct in not including them.
If somebody asks, "what is the best American made car?" the answer should not be Packard! ;D 8) ;)
-Y
The reason why Weihrauch and Diana are still in the game is because they make guns to a cheaper standard and therefore have kept prices a bit more reasonable in a day and age where PCPs are king. Their performance is great but the build quality is lacking in comparison to Walther and FWB. Walther with their double walled tube and that spring loaded synthetic cocking arm guide and FWB with basically everything including the engineering. The new Sport may be the best engineered break barrel to date. No matter where that gun recoils it puts a pellet in the same spot every time. I know some people will say "Oh but the plastic trigger guard on the Sport and trigger on LGU/LGV" but my response is a simple "who cares?". I've seen just as many broken metal triggers as I have plastic ones.
I bring this up in the hopes that Walther and FWB get back in the game. Their products were nothing short of fantastic and deserve to still be made. Same reason I will still say the ASP20 is the best hunting break barrel. I hope SIG sees the positivity and decides to take another shot at it even if the price is higher.
While the FWB Sport, Walther LGV/LGU and SIG ASP 20 had some new, revolutionary qualities - they were frankly discontinued because they couldn't sell them. Apparently, not good enough.
Kinda like the DeLorean - big splash when they hit the market ..... then a financial dog because those qualities were not appreciated by enough people.
While Weihrauch has pedestrian internals, overall - they're pretty fine rifles. You're right though, adding basic inflation - going back to the 1980's, their current offerings are well below what they should be. There relatively (unchanged) designs are very simple which has been one of the reasons they're so durable.
Beeman obviously pick them for his R1 design for a reason.
I see your website offerings are pretty much Cometa springers from Spain. I wouldn't exactly call this inventory quality German rifles, but you're trying to eat.
I think if you sold what your exposing, you'd be out of business ...... which is why Diana is now selling Chinese guns.
I agree with everything you're saying but I absolutely would not be out of buisness haha. I'm in kind of a unique position here. I'm not in this for the money. My regular 7am-4pm job of turning wrenches pays the bills. This is just a fun side project that started when I ran a group buy for members here and on the other forum. When I sent the group order into Cometa they gave me a second price sheet of what costs would be had I placed a bigger order. The difference was enough for me to throw my own money in on the deal. I could have made an easy $2k on the group buy alone but instead passed the extra savings (that I paid for) down to everyone involved. There are people on this forum who can verify that they did indeed get their guns for $40-$50 less than the original quote. They can also verify that the prices on my site aren't all that much higher than what they paid. Like I said, I don't do this for money. I do this because I love this hobby and I REALLY love spring guns.
I bring that up only because I think that had I been given the opportunity to sell those FWB Sports things would have played out differently for them. A) They wouldn't have left my place with those poorly fitted guides, the one negative thing about an otherwise perfect gun in my opinion. B) I wouldn't have marked them up to a $1k when they were first released. Given what they sell for now I'd say that markup was probably pretty exorbitant.
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Well I shoot a friend's FWB 124 at the range. It had a terrible recoil. Worse than my gas ram guns!!
He sent it to a tuner who, played around with it for 6 months, when it came back I shot it again. Night and Day difference.
Yes, the fit and finish is excellent on the newer FWB 124, but the OEM shot cycle leaves alot to be desired.
Just my $0.02... ;D
-Yogi
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Well I shoot a friend's FWB 124 at the range. It had a terrible recoil. Worse than my gas ram guns!!
He sent it to a tuner who, played around with it for 6 months, when it came back I shot it again. Night and Day difference.
Yes, the fit and finish is excellent on the newer FWB 124, but the OEM shot cycle leaves alot to be desired.
Just my $0.02... ;D
-Yogi
The old 124 and even the new Sport are very snappy guns and they aren't going to be for everyone. That being said, they are still some of the most accurate and least pellet picky break barrels I've ever shot. De-snappifying them some really doesn't take a whole lot though. For one of my new Sports I think just got a new rear guide, HW80 piston seal, and I think I lost one coil and I was still sitting at 13.5ftlbs? Don't quote me on that. I'll verify later. Here is a comparison between that gun and a 12ftlb 50S...
https://youtu.be/AXQ0F-sq89c?si=x4EdX9k_XJOC6f87
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Hey Jon,
Please don't temp me into buying the FWB Sport as it's one of the few Springers I would like to try ... that is still available. I almost pulled the trigger when AOA had the for $595.
I'm not dismayed by the inability to get parts as I can make most things needed and could tune to desired shot cycle.
Another gun I wished I had tried was the Walther LGV Master Pro.
Other than its sheer mass, the gun receiver shell (aka Crosman 760) had so many little parts that I wasn't sure how durable the gun was going to be?
It's nice that you could spread (Springer) love by making Cometa guns available to members at rock bottom prices ;).
All things considered, Cometa airguns are a good value for the $$$.
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Hey Jon,
Please don't temp me into buying the FWB Sport as it's one of the few Springers I would like to try ... that is still available. I almost pulled the trigger when AOA had the for $595.
I'm not dismayed by the inability to get parts as I can make most things needed and could tune to desired shot cycle.
Another gun I wished I had tried was the Walther LGV Master Pro. Other than its sheer mass, the gun receiver shell (aka Crosman 760) had so many little parts that I wasn't sure how durable the gun was going to be?
It's nice that you could spread (Springer) love by making Cometa guns available to members at rock bottom prices ;).
All things considered, Cometa airguns are a good value for the $$$.
I'm honestly suprised you of all people don't have a new Sport already and I'm not going to try to talk you out of it either. With your talents with these guns you would have an absolutely fantastic shooter on your hands. Plus the irons are fantastic.
I have a .22 LGV Competition Ultra putting out 17ftlbs. One of the best sounding guns I own. Same can be said for my 12ftlb LGU. Theres a pretty distinctive *pop* to them thats hard to describe but I love it 😄
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Jon,
I inquired about a friends LGV. I asked iff it was a 16 fpe gun, their response was no and could not be made into one.
How did you do it?
I did indeed miss out on the LGV and the SIG ap20...bummer.
-Y
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Jon,
I inquired about a friends LGV. I asked iff it was a 16 fpe gun, their response was no and could not be made into one.
How did you do it?
I did indeed miss out on the LGV and the SIG ap20...bummer.
-Y
The ARH full power spring is a direct fit for the factory guide. I'll have to chrono the gun when I get home for you. It was a bit over 17 when I first dropped that spring in but now it has a couple thousand shots on it and I'm sure it settled in a bit. I'll let you know where it is now though.
-
Hi Jon
Here's a shout out from a Cometa fan in RI.
Glad you joined the discussion.
-
Well I shoot a friend's FWB 124 at the range. It had a terrible recoil. Worse than my gas ram guns!!
He sent it to a tuner who, played around with it for 6 months, when it came back I shot it again. Night and Day difference.
Yes, the fit and finish is excellent on the newer FWB 124, but the OEM shot cycle leaves alot to be desired.
Just my $0.02... ;D
-Yogi
The old 124 and even the new Sport are very snappy guns and they aren't going to be for everyone. That being said, they are still some of the most accurate and least pellet picky break barrels I've ever shot. De-snappifying them some really doesn't take a whole lot though. For one of my new Sports I think just got a new rear guide, HW80 piston seal, and I think I lost one coil and I was still sitting at 13.5ftlbs? Don't quote me on that. I'll verify later. Here is a comparison between that gun and a 12ftlb 50S...
https://youtu.be/AXQ0F-sq89c?si=x4EdX9k_XJOC6f87
17 FPE HW95L .22 shot cycle.
https://youtu.be/bywPFmB2_ZM (https://youtu.be/bywPFmB2_ZM)
-
Well I shoot a friend's FWB 124 at the range. It had a terrible recoil. Worse than my gas ram guns!!
He sent it to a tuner who, played around with it for 6 months, when it came back I shot it again. Night and Day difference.
Yes, the fit and finish is excellent on the newer FWB 124, but the OEM shot cycle leaves alot to be desired.
Just my $0.02... ;D
-Yogi
The old 124 and even the new Sport are very snappy guns and they aren't going to be for everyone. That being said, they are still some of the most accurate and least pellet picky break barrels I've ever shot. De-snappifying them some really doesn't take a whole lot though. For one of my new Sports I think just got a new rear guide, HW80 piston seal, and I think I lost one coil and I was still sitting at 13.5ftlbs? Don't quote me on that. I'll verify later. Here is a comparison between that gun and a 12ftlb 50S...
https://youtu.be/AXQ0F-sq89c?si=x4EdX9k_XJOC6f87
17 FPE HW95L .22 shot cycle.
https://youtu.be/bywPFmB2_ZM (https://youtu.be/bywPFmB2_ZM)
We need a thread dedicated just to shot cycle videos. I'd love to see/hear everyone's favorite guns in action. Your side view is definitely nicer than my rear angle
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I'm honestly suprised you of all people don't have a new Sport already and I'm not going to try to talk you out of it either. With your talents with these guns you would have an absolutely fantastic shooter on your hands. Plus the irons are fantastic.
I would.
Kirk doesn't like long heavy guns, and the Sport is somewhat long and heavy. Not if you love Walther's, but if your favourite gun is the HW30 then the Sport is long and heavy.
To each his own.
Thanks for the kind words. After two years of using the LGU, and a little re-configuration of my Super-light Piston, it IS shooting well. It has given me two 2nd places at World's so I cannot complain too much. And scoring near PCP scores is always fun.
Do let us know how that LGV is doing, I am also curious. Hope to see you Feb 11'th at PSA. Let me know if you are going to get an "Irons only" round.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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We need a thread dedicated just to shot cycle videos. I'd love to see/hear everyone's favorite guns in action. Your side view is definitely nicer than my rear angle
You would need to record the videos at 1000 fps. Otherwise, a LOT of intermediate and final locations of the actions during the recoiling cycles are lost.
Have you ever seen a video of an airplane propeller where it seems to be static, or even moving backwards?
That is what happens when you record a fast phenomenon with slow equipment.
;-)
Lots of things can happen here and lots of mis-information possible.
NOTE WELL: I am NOT saying that there is an INTENTIONAL mis-representation, just that we tend to believe in videos, when in some instances, they are bad tools of analysis.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
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I'm honestly suprised you of all people don't have a new Sport already and I'm not going to try to talk you out of it either. With your talents with these guns you would have an absolutely fantastic shooter on your hands. Plus the irons are fantastic.
I would.
Kirk doesn't like long heavy guns, and the Sport is somewhat long and heavy. Not if you love Walther's, but if your favourite gun is the HW30 then the Sport is long and heavy.
To each his own.
Thanks for the kind words. After two years of using the LGU, and a little re-configuration of my Super-light Piston, it IS shooting well. It has given me two 2nd places at World's so I cannot complain too much. And scoring near PCP scores is always fun.
Do let us know how that LGV is doing, I am also curious. Hope to see you Feb 11'th at PSA. Let me know if you are going to get an "Irons only" round.
Keep well and shoot straight!
HM
I will be there! I'll probably end up shooting my D75 irons only for one pass of the course and probably witch to the TX for the next one. All this talk of the Sport though and I'll probably bring that for an irons only pass too
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...how many of us are torn between Diana and Weihrauch?
I ask because I find myself increasingly leaning towards one over the other, and I don't know if it's just a subjective preference or if more exposure to both (I've bought one of each recently, neither purchase planned) has just shown me which manufacturer is "better". To be sure, I really like both.
I'm wondering if anyone out there has gone from being "a Diana guy" to Weihrauch, or from Weihrauch to Diana over time. And if so, why? Because if you have worked on many of both, and were influenced by what you found internally, I'd surely like to know that.
I'm just a driver, not a mechanic so, speaking for myself:
From the little D27 to the much bigger Diana's, I can appreciate the intention behind all of them and the good work that went into them. Especially the older ones like my D45.
Great stuff and at good prices, although there are a few product compromises that I wish Diana had never made. The plastic D460 sight design for example. Or the plastic end caps on the compression tubes.
On the plus side, they make good power for their weight, are satisfyingly accurate (or more) and most triggers are excellent. Even the T05 can be very nice, and that's the one I consider to be the least desireable. The barrel droop issue is somewhat offset by the performance of the scope rail - no chance to squeeze your comp tube out of round. And of course, droop can be dealt with.
The Weihrauchs of course have no trigger issues, although the Diana T06 triggers equal them in my book. Mine are all satisfyingly accurate (or more), so I see no advantage there. The relative weights of different rifles seems to be a wash too, as are general performance levels until you get to the Magnums. But the feel of quality for the Weihrauchs seems to be a solid step over the Diana's. And no disappointing plastic bits to spoil things either. I do wish the safeties were resettable.
The HW95s and 97s seem to be real standouts to me, but I have been lucky enough to shoot many Weihrauchs, and they all "do it" for me.
I have developed a preference for one maker.
For me it's Weihrauch by a nose, after a hard race.
I saw my first Diana (RWS34 version) at an airgun show years ago and was less than impressed compared with my Beeman R9. The first thing I noticed about the Diana 34 was the visible amount of barrel droop and the second rate "fit and finish" compared to my Beeman R9. LOL, however I was really impressed with the fit and finish of the Webley guns I inspected.
After my inspection of the RWS34 (assuming it's similar to the Diana offering) that show I wasn't impressed with the trigger, the pivot bolt adjustment, bolt on scope rail, plastic parts etc. Further investigation of the Diana34 parts diagrams was also a bit of a "put-off" simply due to the rather complex assembly of the receiver,trigger and barrel pivot parts compared to the simplicity of the HW break barrel springers..........
(https://i.imgur.com/lMwvuL0.png)
Anywhoo. early on my "springer journey" I never considered buying a Diana/RWS breakbarrel but I've bought, tuned, sold several Beeman R9s, plus I still own and use a home tuned .177 R9 and a .177 HW95. I also own a couple "cheap chinese springer copies" where I came to dislike the Gamo/Diana "pivot bolt in a sleeve in a bore" pivot bolt geometry. LOL, I even gave up on using the Gamo440, the Crosman Quest (a Chinese copy of the Gamo220) and my most recent "junk springer" purchase a Remington Express "land filling" them.
My current HW break barrels, a .177 Beeman R9 and a .177 HW95..........
(https://i.imgur.com/eHEAp7o.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/liXJm0i.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/Ng6Q1mZ.jpg)
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Jon,
I inquired about a friends LGV. I asked iff it was a 16 fpe gun, their response was no and could not be made into one.
How did you do it?
I did indeed miss out on the LGV and the SIG ap20...bummer.
-Y
Ok I got some hard data for you. With the JSB 15.89gr I was sitting right around 670 for 16fpe and with 14.6gr FTTs I was at 710fps for around 16.5fpe. So the gun did settle in a bit but not a whole lot. If I was worried about the few lost fps I could probably tweak it back in but the gun shoots great so I'll leave her be.
-
Now you are just making me feel bad.... ;D
-Yogi
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Ok I got some hard data for you. With the JSB 15.89gr I was sitting right around 670 for 16fpe and with 14.6gr FTTs I was at 710fps for around 16.5fpe. So the gun did settle in a bit but not a whole lot. If I was worried about the few lost fps I could probably tweak it back in but the gun shoots great so I'll leave her be.
OK, that's more like it.
0.22" has a greater expansion ratio and therefore is more "efficient". Also the JSB 16's are among the best pellets there are.
It runs well with my experiences with the LGV:
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-walther-lgv-pushing-the-power-limits
The long TP of the LGV requires weight in the piston, the ABP's worked very well but they are very complicated to make and therefore expensive.
And the LGV, since the cocking lever pushes against the steel body of the piston, there is no way to make a lighter piston . . . or maybe there is, LOL!
Thanks for the numbers, keep well and see you at PSA.
HM
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At the risk of renewing my past status as an FWB Sport enabler, totally agree that it is not for everyone. If anyone wants to dump theirs, though, just let me know. Guess I could make room for another one. Just sayin'. :)
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At the risk of renewing my past status as an FWB Sport enabler, totally agree that it is not for everyone. If anyone wants to dump theirs, though, just let me know. Guess I could make room for another one. Just sayin'. :)
I am so glad I am not alone here. I was starting to question my sanity lol. I like a nice tame shooting session just as much as the next person but some times I want to feel that snap to remind me that I'm shooting a springer. Love me a lively gun
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At the risk of renewing my past status as an FWB Sport enabler, totally agree that it is not for everyone. If anyone wants to dump theirs, though, just let me know. Guess I could make room for another one. Just sayin'. :)
All right (enabler) Joanie ;),
Why don't you send out a FWB Sport's to me in Washington State and I can shoot it a bit - and tune it if you like :D.
I will pay postage both ways .............. ? At least then my curiosities will be satisfied.
Kirk Schwarz
19631 110th PL NE
Bothell, WA 98011
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Very tempting offer, Kirk. Will keep it in mind. I really don't notice the snap and the recoil, though. In fact, I kind of associate with the awesome accuracy. Little bit leery of jinxing that in a "don't fix it, if it ain't broken" kind of way.
Yes the Sport is long and even a bit heavier than the HW95L I had, but the stock is much slimmer and trimmer, so it feels and balance differently than the 95. For me, the Sport is right at the limit of what I can handle shooting without a rest, but still doable, thanks to the way it balances. Hope you get a chance to try one, some day.
By the way, the Sport is the main reason I've resisted buying the HW98, even though I should still get the HW98, given I'm an HW fan and break barrel fan. Just have my doubts about the 98 keeping up with the Sport's accuracy. The 95L couldn't.
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Very tempting offer, Kirk. Will keep it in mind.
Hey Joanie,
Not trying to force or impose anything on you, just trying to bolster your FWB Sport enabling Legend.
Practically speaking, it would be cheaper/less hassle for me to pay for 2x shipping rather than $695 + shipping + additional shipping to sell if I didn't think it added enough to my arsenal.
As for tuning it ........ I think it would be fun/rewarding to understand how FWB designs their guns ;).
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JMO here, I have 1 of OC 98's .177cal, and it's very accurate, I think HW puts a little more precision into the 98 than a standard 95, the 95 is not considered a target rifle, more of a field grade, the 98 is designed to be more of target rifle with the sleeve on the barrel and the stock, so it's hard for me to Imagin the Sport being any more accurate, but again a good rifle is a good rifle no matter who makes it! I also think some rifles need a bit longer barrel seasoning than others to see its real accuracy with the right pellets, I've had some HW .177cal barrels take a few tins of pellets before they would shoot 1-hole groups, even my 95's I have owned in .177cal, IMO they are just as accurate as a 98 in the right hands! 8)
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As mentioned more than once in the past, I purchased and went through 4 of the new sport models. They are rather impressive with the quality of manufacture. And the barrels are very accurate. However the power plant design wasn’t well thought out, not sure why the engineers did what they did. The piston seals weren’t even machined for the piston buttons correctly like we see on the HW seals OEM or aftermarket. I had one come off in the tube when I pulled the piston.
My first rifle from PA was full retail with high expectations, just to receive it with differential lube dripping out the action, and the smell was recognizable for anyone who has changed diff lubes in the past.
I tuned one down to around 10-10.5 fpe, and it would shoot pertinear the same hole at 25-30 yds. But I felt the action in these becomes sluggish as they slow down much like a TX 200 or a HW80.
The iron sights are the best I have seen, and the rifle points very well. The latch up and breech block machined pivot bearings were leagues above HW.
I talked with a well known tuner real early in these and he did a couple and stopped as the tubes were gauging out of round, and we know what that requires to address.
I do wish they designed these with a 25-26 mm piston instead. But some think the American market wants 1000 fps in everything.
All four shot more harsh out of the box than anything I have seen. These were all early serial numbers. They also exhibited stiff cocking and crunching of the springs.
For the money HW are a better value and behave better tuned down. I don’t have any of the sports left, but I do have and intend to keep my HW98.
FWB was at the 1yd line with these, I wish they would have finished it right and this could have been one of the best break barrels offered today.
Jason
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As mentioned more than once in the past, I purchased and went through 4 of the new sport models. They are rather impressive with the quality of manufacture. And the barrels are very accurate. However the power plant design wasn’t well thought out, not sure why the engineers did what they did. The piston seals weren’t even machined for the piston buttons correctly like we see on the HW seals OEM or aftermarket. I had one come off in the tube when I pulled the piston.
My first rifle from PA was full retail with high expectations, just to receive it with differential lube dripping out the action, and the smell was recognizable for anyone who has changed diff lubes in the past.
I tuned one down to around 10-10.5 fpe, and it would shoot pertinear the same hole at 25-30 yds. But I felt the action in these becomes sluggish as they slow down much like a TX 200 or a HW80.
The iron sights are the best I have seen, and the rifle points very well.
I talked with a well known tuner real early in these and he did a couple and stopped as the tubes were gauging out if round, and we know what that requires to address.
I do wish they designed these with a 25-26 mm piston instead. But some think the American market wants 1000 fps in everything.
I don’t have any of the sports left, but I do have and intend to keep my HW98.
Jason
Well Jason,
That's the detailed information I needed; which (GTA) members have come to appreciate from you.
I think your unbiased observations are very credible ...... and similar to how I would view the gun on disassembly.
Hence, I'm glad I never purchased one .......... I very likely would have sold it.
Not saying other folks are wrong, but I can see why they were discontinued.
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As mentioned more than once in the past, I purchased and went through 4 of the new sport models. They are rather impressive with the quality of manufacture. And the barrels are very accurate. However the power plant design wasn’t well thought out, not sure why the engineers did what they did. The piston seals weren’t even machined for the piston buttons correctly like we see on the HW seals OEM or aftermarket. I had one come off in the tube when I pulled the piston.
My first rifle from PA was full retail with high expectations, just to receive it with differential lube dripping out the action, and the smell was recognizable for anyone who has changed diff lubes in the past.
I tuned one down to around 10-10.5 fpe, and it would shoot pertinear the same hole at 25-30 yds. But I felt the action in these becomes sluggish as they slow down much like a TX 200 or a HW80.
The iron sights are the best I have seen, and the rifle points very well.
I talked with a well known tuner real early in these and he did a couple and stopped as the tubes were gauging out if round, and we know what that requires to address.
I do wish they designed these with a 25-26 mm piston instead. But some think the American market wants 1000 fps in everything.
I don’t have any of the sports left, but I do have and intend to keep my HW98.
Jason
Well Jason,
That's the detailed information I needed; which (GTA) members have come to appreciate from you.
I think your unbiased observations are very credible ...... and similar to how I would view the gun on disassembly.
Hence, I'm glad I never purchased one .......... I very likely would have sold it.
Not saying other folks are wrong, but I can see why they were discontinued.
Kirk, those rifles honestly feel better in my hands than just about anything. When you pick it up and shoulder it the first thing you say is “my goodness, are you kidding me?” Then you cock the rifle and shoot it then say, “are you kidding me”……….. >:(
Jason
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JMO here, I have 1 of OC 98's .177cal, and it's very accurate, I think HW puts a little more precision into the 98 than a standard 95, the 95 is not considered a target rifle, more of a field grade, the 98 is designed to be more of target rifle with the sleeve on the barrel and the stock, so it's hard for me to Imagin the Sport being any more accurate, but again a good rifle is a good rifle no matter who makes it!
Mark, I too am the proud owner of one of OC's 98s. In .177
That is no doubt the jewel in my crown.
While the other German springers I own, HW, FWB, Diana,... Nothing comes close. Except my Beeman R-10 in .20 is second best.
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JMO here, I have 1 of OC 98's .177cal, and it's very accurate, I think HW puts a little more precision into the 98 than a standard 95, the 95 is not considered a target rifle, more of a field grade, the 98 is designed to be more of target rifle with the sleeve on the barrel and the stock, so it's hard for me to Imagin the Sport being any more accurate, but again a good rifle is a good rifle no matter who makes it!
Mark, I too am the proud owner of one of OC's 98s. In .177
That is no doubt the jewel in my crown.
While the other German springers I own, HW, FWB, Diana,... Nothing comes close. Except my Beeman R-10 in .20 is second best.
I vaguely remember OC working on that one, was that the one he was short stroking? He was talking up the accuracy on that one.
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Yeah, there were a number of head scratchers on the Sport design that make you wonder what they were thinking. Geez, the accuracy, though. They got that one right. That FWB barrel is pure gold. Not enabling, here. Just for the record. Shot last summer.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8khDgb7s/P1110186.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJpqVKZQ/P1110185.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
-
As mentioned more than once in the past, I purchased and went through 4 of the new sport models. They are rather impressive with the quality of manufacture. And the barrels are very accurate. However the power plant design wasn’t well thought out, not sure why the engineers did what they did. The piston seals weren’t even machined for the piston buttons correctly like we see on the HW seals OEM or aftermarket. I had one come off in the tube when I pulled the piston.
My first rifle from PA was full retail with high expectations, just to receive it with differential lube dripping out the action, and the smell was recognizable for anyone who has changed diff lubes in the past.
I tuned one down to around 10-10.5 fpe, and it would shoot pertinear the same hole at 25-30 yds. But I felt the action in these becomes sluggish as they slow down much like a TX 200 or a HW80.
The iron sights are the best I have seen, and the rifle points very well. The latch up and breech block machined pivot bearings were leagues above HW.
I talked with a well known tuner real early in these and he did a couple and stopped as the tubes were gauging out of round, and we know what that requires to address.
I do wish they designed these with a 25-26 mm piston instead. But some think the American market wants 1000 fps in everything.
All four shot more harsh out of the box than anything I have seen. These were all early serial numbers. They also exhibited stiff cocking and crunching of the springs.
For the money HW are a better value and behave better tuned down. I don’t have any of the sports left, but I do have and intend to keep my HW98.
FWB was at the 1yd line with these, I wish they would have finished it right and this could have been one of the best break barrels offered today.
Jason
Out of round compression tubes and the resulting piston seals flying off is what doomed the Air Arms Pro Elite break barrel.
I once asked Air Arms if they would ever consider manufacturing another break barrel. Their answer was NEVER AGAIN!!!
-Yogi
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Yeah, there were a number of head scratchers on the Sport design that make you wonder what they were thinking. Geez, the accuracy, though. They got that one right. That FWB barrel is pure gold. Not enabling, here. Just for the record. Shot last summer.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8khDgb7s/P1110186.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJpqVKZQ/P1110185.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Wow
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Jason, it is the short stroke gun! ;)
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What is OC? HW, Diana, FWB... All on my radar as well as Cometa. OC has me scratching my noggin. Is OC a tuner per chance?
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:D
What is OC? HW, Diana, FWB... All on my radar as well as Cometa. OC has me scratching my noggin. Is OC a tuner per chance?
Just an ol late friend on this forum known as whitefang, up to his knees in airguns like many on here with great love of this sport, and was always willing to help others in airgunning. The “rambling” ol man is missed,
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/junkyardairguns/in-memory-of-oc-bolding-jr-t3242.html
Jason
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Thanks, Jason. Whitefang rings a bell. I'm sorry I missed the chance to learn from him live, but his posts are here posthumously to learn from.
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JMO here, I have 1 of OC 98's .177cal, and it's very accurate, I think HW puts a little more precision into the 98 than a standard 95, the 95 is not considered a target rifle, more of a field grade, the 98 is designed to be more of target rifle with the sleeve on the barrel and the stock, so it's hard for me to Imagin the Sport being any more accurate, but again a good rifle is a good rifle no matter who makes it!
Mark, I too am the proud owner of one of OC's 98s. In .177
That is no doubt the jewel in my crown.
While the other German springers I own, HW, FWB, Diana,... Nothing comes close. Except my Beeman R-10 in .20 is second best.
I vaguely remember OC working on that one, was that the one he was short stroking? He was talking up the accuracy on that one.
Jason, it is the short stroke gun! ;)
Yep, it is...
Whitefang did say it was "stroked" but I never really learned what that meant be for he passed.
Seems to have worked well on it.
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You guys and gals have me quite intrigued about a short stroked Sport now. I placed an order for a TbT 30mm HW short stroke kit. I figure an HW80 piston seal fits so that kit should fit easily enough as well. I think this should really transform the gun
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:DWhat is OC? HW, Diana, FWB... All on my radar as well as Cometa. OC has me scratching my noggin. Is OC a tuner per chance?
Just an ol late friend on this forum known as whitefang, up to his knees in airguns like many on here with great love of this sport, and was always willing to help others in airgunning. The “rambling” ol man is missed,
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/junkyardairguns/in-memory-of-oc-bolding-jr-t3242.html
Jason
I've missed reading his posts
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My WhiteFang HW98...I dug out my target file folder and found this "note to self".
It passes the pellet on turret test.
OC delivered. ;)
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My WhiteFang HW98...I dug out my target file folder and found this "note to self".
It passes the pellet on turret test.
OC delivered. ;)
We need a like button for posts like these.
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My WhiteFang HW98...I dug out my target file folder and found this "note to self".
It passes the pellet on turret test.
OC delivered. ;)
I recall an R10 that OC installed an HW98 barrel in also, is this the R10? IIRC, he machined an extension that snapped in the front of the piston, and added a piston seal. He also claimed it was accurate and smooth.
Jason
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You guys and gals have me quite intrigued about a short stroked Sport now. I placed an order for a TbT 30mm HW short stroke kit. I figure an HW80 piston seal fits so that kit should fit easily enough as well. I think this should really transform the gun
I have not tinkered into this realm, but I could see where this might help the rifle. I never bit onto short stroking, due to the strange cocking motion to take up the slack as a result of the added spacing in front if the piston (not in the rear side with stem mods).
Custom Air Seals was making a snap on seal for 26 & 30mm pistons. However it has the cup face style seals which I would rather use in a 97 style comp tube. The parachute may be the ticket instead in case the tube is slightly over sized or out of round. Shortening the stroke on that big heavy 30 mm piston may clean up the cycle some.
The safety if I recall is reset with the rear skirt, that wouldn’t favor well I suppose with custom stem or piston work without some serious thought.
Jason
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You guys and gals have me quite intrigued about a short stroked Sport now. I placed an order for a TbT 30mm HW short stroke kit. I figure an HW80 piston seal fits so that kit should fit easily enough as well. I think this should really transform the gun
I have not tinkered into this realm, but I could see where this might help the rifle. I never bit onto short stroking, due to the strange cocking motion to take up the slack as a result of the added spacing in front if the piston (not in the rear side with stem mods).
Custom Air Seals was making a snap on seal for 26 & 30mm pistons. However it has the cup face style seals which I would rather use in a 97 style comp tube. The parachute may be the ticket instead in case the tube is slightly over sized or out of round. Shortening the stroke on that big heavy 30 mm piston may clean up the cycle some.
The safety if I recall is reset with the rear skirt, that wouldn’t favor well I suppose with custom stem or piston work without some serious thought.
Jason
I'm not 100% positive on the safety but given how it rides the top of the trigger unit I suspect you are correct. I currently only have one short stroked gun and that is my TX200 which I did opt for extending the latch rod. I was never a huge fan of that anti-bear trap ratcheting mechanism so short stroking it that way took care of two birds with one stone. Im very interested to see how these seal extensions work and this seems like a great opportunity to find out. I will keep everyone posted after I get it and likely a new spring installed.
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My WhiteFang HW98...I dug out my target file folder and found this "note to self".
It passes the pellet on turret test.
OC delivered. ;)
I recall an R10 that OC installed an HW98 barrel in also, is this the R10? IIRC, he machined an extension that snapped in the front of the piston, and added a piston seal. He also claimed it was accurate and smooth.
Jason
Nope this is his HW98 not an R10 .. I have an R10 and wanted a matching R11... Whitefang offered this HW98 instead as a substitute .
And that is how the story began.
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So... back on track of the original topic....
A Beeman R10 (HW85) is an outstanding German wonder in .20 !
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My WhiteFang HW98...I dug out my target file folder and found this "note to self".
It passes the pellet on turret test.
OC delivered. ;)
I recall an R10 that OC installed an HW98 barrel in also, is this the R10? IIRC, he machined an extension that snapped in the front of the piston, and added a piston seal. He also claimed it was accurate and smooth.
Jason
Nope this is his HW98 not an R10 .. I have an R10 and wanted a matching R11... Whitefang offered this HW98 instead as a substitute .
And that is how the story began.
So Hoosier,
What average velocity are you achieving out the the HW98, short-stroked by Fang?
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Hey guys I have this rifle, the 98 with the R10 tube short stroked, I do not remember what the numbers were when I got it, but it was turned down, OC, described it as a FWB300 on steroids, I planned to put a full power JM hornet kit for an R10 back in it, I bought the kit awhile back and posted a pix of it, just haven't had the time to do much of anything due to my work schedule and other projects I have going on with custom builds on some PB's, I also have 1 of his hot rodded R1's in .20cal, both of these rifles are fabulous shooters! I really miss my friend OC ;)
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So Hoosier,
What average velocity are you achieving out the the HW98, short-stroked by Fang?
I dug through all my files and can't find where I ever Chono'ed it.
Good project for today!
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I'm with you Wes, and you said it well.
My original question was to see if some people had changed their preferences with experience, as had happened to me. My first exposures to good springers were both Diana's, and I was surprised to find that with more exposure I now (mostly) prefer less powerful HWs, because I really like the harder shooting guns. Started wondering if I was following a common evolution, as it were, away from velocity.
I've changed to the point that I recently bought an HW30, and I'm enjoying it. I would not have thought to do so 5 years ago.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not selling off any Diana's and they get plenty of time in my shooting rotation. In fact I have a little D54 project going on now, and a D460 that will be getting some attention soon too. But I've found that the HWs suit me better. Or just please me more. Not quite sure which.
IPardon me for the long delay in responding to your post and thank you for your compliment. As much as I enjoy target shooting and plinking my air rifles were purchased for hunting, so I expect them to be able to produce a certain level of power, the R9 has become my favorite of the three springers I own, but it's at the bottom end for what I consider a hunting rifle power wise and I limit my shots with it to 30 yards. I realize the Brits do quite well with their 12 ft lb rifles but I'm thankful we aren't subject to such restrictions. I'm not saying I can't appreciate the lower powered springers, but for my purposes the rifles I have cover both the target shooting and the hunting quite well, in particular the R9. An HW30 for me at least would be redundant because of how accurate and mild shooting the R9 is. The 350 is more of a special purpose rifle and I don't shoot it all that often, but it sure puts a smile on my face when I do because of the power it makes. I said above that I limit my shots to 30 yards when I'm hunting with the R9, but I basically limit my shots to 30 yards regardless of which rifle I'm using. I've shot so many squirrels in my life that if one is a little out of range it doesn't bother me to just let it go, my Dad had a saying " If I don't shoot it I don't have to clean it" I'm not sure what he meant by that because he made me clean all the squirrels anyway but that's another story LOL!
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I've been very curious about those 340's for a long time Yogi. I'd trade my 350 NTEC for one I think, to someone looking for more power.
FWIW-I think the Diana 340 N-tec Compact Lexus(walnut hogsback stock), is one of the very nicest looking airguns. All the proportions are right and it just fits.
Why more companies do not make hogsback stocks if beyond me. ???
-Yogi
When I worked at the gun shop we always called them Roman Nose stocks😜
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Hey guys I have this rifle, the 98 with the R10 tube short stroked, I do not remember what the numbers were when I got it, but it was turned down, OC, described it as a FWB300 on steroids, I planned to put a full power JM hornet kit for an R10 back in it, I bought the kit awhile back and posted a pix of it, just haven't had the time to do much of anything due to my work schedule and other projects I have going on with custom builds on some PB's, I also have 1 of his hot rodded R1's in .20cal, both of these rifles are fabulous shooters! I really miss my friend OC ;)
Yeah Yoda,
We all miss FANG's cryptic writing, folksy style and generosity he had for everyone ;).
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Ain't that the truth!
OC was one of the good ones here.
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Hoosier, I have enough rifles for 10 life times. But that HW85 .20 cal. makes me envious. I have the .177 and .22 which are a treat to shoot. I’m finding the .20 cal. to be favourable. Often wondered what the 85 would be like in .20 cal. Going to be a challenge to get. Thanks for showing. Crow
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I have often wondered if a Magnum .20 cal would have an advantage over a .177
I see the advantage for sure in .22 because you can run heavier, more aerodynamic pellets up against the 900 fps mark.
And it seems like the 11+ to 15+ grain .20 pellets would work very well in the 800-900 fps range. Possibly optimizing the pellet weight & BC combo vs velocity generated by magnum springers.
I have considered rebarreling my spare Parrus, but my curriousity is "little", expected cost "lots"....
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Hoosier, I have enough rifles for 10 life times. But that HW85 .20 cal. makes me envious. I have the .177 and .22 which are a treat to shoot. I’m finding the .20 cal. to be favourable. Often wondered what the 85 would be like in .20 cal. Going to be a challenge to get. Thanks for showing. Crow
Funny story about that R-10 (HW85)...
I was at the Findlay show sharing a table with Steve... we would take turns and wander around to see the other sellers wares.
I spotted it early and at the end as everyone was packing up I went back and it was still there.
Talking to the seller I made a last minute trade for a 312, and C9 'streak..
Once the hand-shake was done I said "OK.. what's wrong with it?"
He said "The caliber... nobody want's a .20"
I giggled all the way home!
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I have often wondered if a Magnum .20 cal would have an advantage over a .177
I see the advantage for sure in .22 because you can run heavier, more aerodynamic pellets up against the 900 fps mark.
And it seems like the 11+ to 15+ grain .20 pellets would work very well in the 800-900 fps range. Possibly optimizing the pellet weight & BC combo vs velocity generated by magnum springers.
I have considered rebarreling my spare Parrus, but my curriousity is "little", expected cost "lots"....
In a Springer, a .20 caliber HW80 cannot be beat for precision accuracy out to 80+ yards.
I would like to see how a .20 cal. D54 or D56 would compare ............... it's likely their heavier mass/lower recoil would give them the edge.
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I have often wondered if a Magnum .20 cal would have an advantage over a .177
I see the advantage for sure in .22 because you can run heavier, more aerodynamic pellets up against the 900 fps mark.
And it seems like the 11+ to 15+ grain .20 pellets would work very well in the 800-900 fps range. Possibly optimizing the pellet weight & BC combo vs velocity generated by magnum springers.
I have considered rebarreling my spare Parrus, but my curriousity is "little", expected cost "lots"....
In a Springer, a .20 caliber HW80 cannot be beat for precision accuracy out to 80+ yards.
I would like to see how a .20 cal. D54 or D56 would compare ............... it's likely their heavier mass/lower recoil would give them the edge.
Seems almost all Field Target shooters shoot .177 cal with a 20 foot pound max limit. Personally I've never met a shooter using a .20 but I'm sure there MUST be a FEW.
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I have often wondered if a Magnum .20 cal would have an advantage over a .177
I see the advantage for sure in .22 because you can run heavier, more aerodynamic pellets up against the 900 fps mark.
And it seems like the 11+ to 15+ grain .20 pellets would work very well in the 800-900 fps range. Possibly optimizing the pellet weight & BC combo vs velocity generated by magnum springers.
I have considered rebarreling my spare Parrus, but my curriousity is "little", expected cost "lots"....
In a Springer, a .20 caliber HW80 cannot be beat for precision accuracy out to 80+ yards.
I would like to see how a .20 cal. D54 or D56 would compare ............... it's likely their heavier mass/lower recoil would give them the edge.
Seems almost all Field Target shooters shoot .177 cal with a 20 foot pound max limit. Personally I've never met a shooter using a .20 but I'm sure there MUST be a FEW.
Yeah Nced,
I understand what your saying, but I'm talking about taking shots well beyond 55 yard shots. That's were the .20 cal (specifically 13.73 JSB) shines.
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So Hoosier,
What average velocity are you achieving out the the HW98, short-stroked by Fang?
I dug through all my files and can't find where I ever Chono'ed it.
Good project for today!
Well THAT was easy!
When the last numbers on each didn't change I was skeptical and intentionally threw sideways and the chrono confirmed it was reading. :o
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Kinda like a Hot HW35E, but lower recoil and better ES.
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Kirk,
I wish we lived closer to each other so you could experience this gun for yourself.
Pellet on turret is easy. I am sure the weight of the rifle helps... but DANG she is smooooth.
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That pellet test pass is incredible.
Regarding the various German springers, which have passed the pellet test?
Did the passing of the pellet test(s) influence your preference for one brand of German springer over snother?
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That pellet test pass is incredible.
Regarding the various German springers, which have passed the pellet test?
Did the passing of the pellet test(s) influence your preference for one brand of German springer over snother?
You lost me Split,
What is the Pellet Test you're referring to ????
What I've found ............ that on average Weihrauch makes nice shooting barrels in .177 and especially .20 calibers.
.22 caliber has been literally hit and miss for me (before I got a good one) .... with barrels being too loose, not having good command of the pellet.
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That pellet test pass is incredible.
Regarding the various German springers, which have passed the pellet test?
Did the passing of the pellet test(s) influence your preference for one brand of German springer over snother?
You lost me Split,
What is the Pellet Test you're referring to ????
What I've found ............ that on average Weihrauch makes nice shooting barrels in .177 and especially .20 calibers.
.22 caliber has been literally hit and miss for me (before I got a good one) .... with barrels being too loose, not having good command of the pellet.
I think they are referring to shooting the gun with a pellet sitting on the tube?
https://youtu.be/GGu8P-cpPQA?si=tm99HJTcZ2Q9LGnq
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That pellet test pass is incredible.
Regarding the various German springers, which have passed the pellet test?
Did the passing of the pellet test(s) influence your preference for one brand of German springer over snother?
Never heard of the Pellet Test until now ::).
Not sure this would make a difference for me. Is this test done right-out-of-the-box or after a tune?
The only reference I have for Air Arms is the .177 caliber Pro-Sport I purchased by back in 2017. All I know is that when I tuned it after about 50 shots, it was discovered the buttons on the sliding compression tube had been incorrectly sanded down/shaved off - were essentially below the cylinder level, providing zero centering/taming during the shot cycle.
Even though I had voided the warranty by opening up the gun, the error/ pics I emailed Pyramyd Air, were so bad, they sent me a new sliding cylinder without question.
I guess this gun may not have passed the pellet test?
Anyway, long story short ........ all manufacturers have problems with internals, not just HW or Diana ....... no matter what the gun costs.
After tuning, while the gun was a fine shooter, I didn't like it's cocking arm (which pulled out of the same compression chamber) or the balance/weight/fiddlyness of the gun and sold it.
Hence, in the larger picture .......... IMO, passing the pellet test is a somewhat minor point concerning the acceptability of a Springer.
- Now this is just my take and everyone's mileage may differ. I also, purchased a AA TX200 HC and returned it because it felt felt like a 4x4 in my hands.
It may have passed the Pellet Test, but I never got that far and returned it within 30 days. Further, it had a poor Walnut stock and it's bling wasn't worth $700.
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Hoosierdaddy brought it up with reference to the OC HW 98 he has. He stands a pellet on the turret of the scope, shoots the gun, and the pellet is still on the turret standing up.
The video of the tx200 above is a non turret example.
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Yes, The pellet sitting on the scopes elevation turret stays when the shot is fired showing a smooth recoil.
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Tried that test with the FWB Sport, this morning. The Sport didn't shoot any better. Still looking for the pellet. :)
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Tried that test with the FWB Sport, this morning. The Sport didn't shoot any better. Still looking for the pellet. :)
Yeah Joanie,
The most important factor relating to the "Pellet Test" is how the SHOOTER handles the recoil of any given gun ;).
I bet you can out shoot most folks with your FWB Sport, where their gun passes said "Test".
My .20 cal. HW80S has a significant recoil, a pellet from a "Pellet Test" would be thrown a couple of feet :P.
However, it's my most accurate gun - enough said :D.
On the plus side, a gun passing the "Pellet Test" should reduce the need for the shooter to counter recoil.
Also, I believe most Springers passing the pellet test are around 12 FPE or less. Maybe the D54 and D56 can pass at their higher power levels - IDK.
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Thanks, Kirk. I agree, accuracy comes first. Yeah, pretty sure my HW30 can pass the test, though.
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As I have said in the past, the smaller the tube the smoother and tighter the groups, power comes with a price! not matter the gun! Dianas fair no better with the pellet test, unless their de tuned down to nothing, even than the bigger power plant guns will not pass this test! too much movement! like a big you know! ;D
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As I have said in the past, the smaller the tube the smoother and tighter the groups, power comes with a price! not matter the gun! Dianas fair no better with the pellet test, unless their de tuned down to nothing, even than the bigger power plant guns will not pass this test! too much movement! like a big you know! ;D
Yoda, curious readers want to know what you're referring to ????
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The Pellet test! shot cycle. smooth power like HOOSER is describing 8)
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We need a new pellet test. Who's gun can throw a pellet the furthest and hold an inch at 50?
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We need a new pellet test. Who's gun can throw a pellet the furthest and hold an inch at 50?
Put a pellet on the turret and shoot then see where the pellet lands. Put a bucket there. Shoot a tight group with all turret pellets landing in the bucket. The pellet bucket test.
Identify German springers that can do this and you got your German springer bucket list.
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I have often wondered if a Magnum .20 cal would have an advantage over a .177
I see the advantage for sure in .22 because you can run heavier, more aerodynamic pellets up against the 900 fps mark.
And it seems like the 11+ to 15+ grain .20 pellets would work very well in the 800-900 fps range. Possibly optimizing the pellet weight & BC combo vs velocity generated by magnum springers.
I have considered rebarreling my spare Parrus, but my curriousity is "little", expected cost "lots"....
In a Springer, a .20 caliber HW80 cannot be beat for precision accuracy out to 80+ yards.
I would like to see how a .20 cal. D54 or D56 would compare ............... it's likely their heavier mass/lower recoil would give them the edge.
This is Steve Herr's "Guest Blog" about a 20 cal D54 and the excellent job he did with the platform:
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-020-cal-diana-54-project
Hope you enjoy!
HM
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I have often wondered if a Magnum .20 cal would have an advantage over a .177
I see the advantage for sure in .22 because you can run heavier, more aerodynamic pellets up against the 900 fps mark.
And it seems like the 11+ to 15+ grain .20 pellets would work very well in the 800-900 fps range. Possibly optimizing the pellet weight & BC combo vs velocity generated by magnum springers.
I have considered rebarreling my spare Parrus, but my curriousity is "little", expected cost "lots"....
In a Springer, a .20 caliber HW80 cannot be beat for precision accuracy out to 80+ yards.
I would like to see how a .20 cal. D54 or D56 would compare ............... it's likely their heavier mass/lower recoil would give them the edge.
This is Steve Herr's "Guest Blog" about a 20 cal D54 and the excellent job he did with the platform:
https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-020-cal-diana-54-project
Hope you enjoy! HM
Smart Guy ........... Excellent skills and very good understanding of how the D54 works.
I don't think I would never have the patience to do that .... unless I was a bachelor (and got real compulsive).
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This thread should be re titled "We're all obsessed with German Springers " LOL! 16 pages guys Holy Cow 👀😜
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This thread should be re titled "We're all obsessed with German Springers " LOL! 16 pages guys Holy Cow 👀😜
Amen, perhaps obsessed to much? ::)
Kirk, your double negative indicates that yes you too could be that anal. :D ;)
-Y
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This thread should be re titled "We're all obsessed with German Springers " LOL! 16 pages guys Holy Cow 👀😜
Amen, perhaps obsessed to much? ::)
Kirk, your double negative indicates that yes you too could be that anal. :D ;)
-Y
Yeah Y,
My biggest problem with many posts is I change them mid-post and forget to remove words or a change of tenses from the original lingo.
Hence, my original post was "I would never have the patience to do that .... "
Then changed it to - "I don't think I would never have the patience to do that ......
Then I thought of conditions where in the past I could have done it and changed it to and added -" unless I was a bachelor (and got real compulsive)."
So yes, my grammar, tenses and often spelling - never instead of ever, often causes me little problems.
However, still ..... Excellent Work in often done by those that are somewhat (or completely) anal or meticulous.
Not settling for less is why we love the German Springers ;).
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I'm not obsessed, I'm "Uber Aware"... ;D
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I'm not obsessed, I'm "Uber Aware"... ;D
The first step to recovery is admitting we have a problem😜
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I'm Wes and I'm a German Springeraholic!