We all love German springers, but...

[Crowman]

I would gladly but don’t know how to show pics. Sorry Crow

[Thumpa]

FWIW-Diana's resettable safety is worlds better than Weihrauch's side nob.

-Y

Yep, can't argue with that.  De-cocking the D460 takes a bit of fluffing about, but at least it's doable.
Not having the option to de-cock my HWs is a pain, particularly if hunting. I grew up shooting older style air guns where one always held the barrel for safety, and I still do it now.  I took the "anti-bear trap" or whatever they call it off my HW97K and it's a better gun for it IMO.  I've never had a barrel slip out of my hand, but I've never shot an air gun (or any gun) in snowy or icy conditions before either so maybe that makes all the difference.

[Crowman]

I shoot off the comfort of a table 99% of the time. I can see where the safety issue would exist when hunting. Crow

[triggerfest]

FWIW-Diana's resettable safety is worlds better than Weihrauch's side nob.

-Y

Even resettable or not... The location on the action itself is already way more ergonomic AND logic compared with Weihrauch's safety location.

[Toxylon]

I think a closer comparison could be Ford (D) vs. Ferrari (HW).

That just doesn't make any sense, since Weihrauchs are small-engine guns with mediocre output energy. A typical Weihrauch shoots hundreds of fps slower per caliber than a typical Diana, and Weihrauch doesn't have ANY long-distance, high-power spring gun in their range, like the D54.

Dianas offer what HW doesn't in that you get a wide range of 22 - 24 fpe, high-accuracy guns of excellent dependability from Diana, but not from HW, whose forté is 12 - 15 fpe and triggers from the mid-50's.

Who is after high performance if not a Ferrari buyer? If you want to go the car analogy route, HW is Cadillac, and Diana is Ferrari.

[splitbeing]

Worth mentioning that anybody with a Diana sidelever also has Roadworthy here as a friendly resource, too.

[Toxylon]

FWIW-Diana's resettable safety is worlds better than Weihrauch's side nob.

-Y

Even resettable or not... The location on the action itself is already way more ergonomic AND logic compared with Weihrauch's safety location.

Weihrauch safety is a dud simply because it's an afterthought. The only springer company today who uses triggers from way back in the pre-safety era is Weihrauch. So, in the 1980's they had to retro-fit a safety to a safetyless trigger, and couldn't really do it. Every other quality springer trigger out there today has been designed with the safety as an integral part, and those safeties are superior because of it.

[Toxylon]

Never owned a Diana, but some visible parts are plastic, not sure how many more are. 
Weihrauch has been using nylon/delrin spring guides for awhile now - they work well and are an upgrade from the metal (split) ones.
The newer, metal spring guide of the HW80S give the piston more momentum.........

Sowing the seeds, eh?

There are no plastic parts inside a Diana that a Weihrauch didn't have. Namely the spring guide, the piston seal and the breech seal.

I have had a half-dozen Dianas, and shot them plenty through years of four seasons in the woods. None of the exterior plastic parts have ever given me trouble, and why should they, being non-load-bearing and of quality composition and design? Having browsed through the myriad Diana discussions online over the years, that's the situation in general.

Several excellent guns of mine even have plastic triggers. There's nothing in the springer realm to get grown men to gnash their teeth and pull their hair more than a plastic trigger on a springer - I admit it was a jarring letdown years ago when I got my Walther LGV. But even here the plasticness doesn't create any issues. These are low-stress parts made of high-quality plastic, after all.

[Toxylon]

My HW95 is very good but not really powerful enough at 12.6 ft/lbs. It is everything that it is meant to be. My HW77 is not that good. Accurate enough. Not enough power.

Weihrauchs don't have enough power for me, either. Getting at winter-coated critters over longer distances, I find 20fpe to be at the lower end of usable / ethical muzzle energy range. A brand-new HW95 (or any Weihrauch with the same engine) .22 cal has trouble breaching 16 fpe with high-BC, high-quality ammo. They just aren't high-performance guns by design.

[HectorMedina]

Thank you all for this thread.
It has been enlightening and instructing.

Also, thanks for keeping it as civil as any I have seen.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

In the end, an airgun is what each of us WANTS it to be. For some, it is a tool, for others it is a hobby, even others look at it as a repository of value and pride of ownership, you even have some of us that think they are works of mechanical art and engineering worthwhile of devoting a life-long pursuit of the understanding of the inner workings down to the fractions of milliseconds. For some of us it is an avenue to sporting prestige when we compete in International grounds, and a source of pride and joy when we see our National flag (whatever that is for each of us) in the podium.

Within that rather large range of wants, some needs develop: ease of cocking, ease of shooting, consistency, accuracy, precision, elegance, reliability, fit and finish, etc, etc, etc. The number of attributes is as varied as there are shooters.

For ME, the real "Take out of this very civil discussion" is that, from now and into the future, each brand should stay true to its core values.

IF that happens, we will have spring-piston airguns worthwhile of being owned, caressed, tuned, shot, enjoyed, displayed, taken into the woods...

We will be a niche. Always. Current PCP's are now hitting the heels of RF's, and it is not impossible to build PCP's that exceed that performance. Spring-piston airguns will always remain the domain of the "BALANCE".

Balance between whatever is important to us: power, aesthetics, endurance, reliability, overall cost of setup or ownership,  ...

Believe it or not, this is going to be OUR struggle for the next years. The lure of the PCP is hard to resist for manufacturers (less cost & higher price), and the advancement of the portable compressors is an irresistible force driven by the Chinese penchant to make things cheap that somehow work, even if it is for a while and not a lifetime.

It is up to us to create the next generation of spring-piston shooters to ensure that the delicate balance between performance and "soul" in a gun shall not perish from this earth.

;-)

Again, thank you.

Keep well and shoot straight!






HM

[Toxylon]

Keep in mind, the very best Diana's substantially out-weigh the HW77/HW97 (were talking D54/D56).
The D48/D460 and D350 are at most 8 ounces less.

Not true. My 350 Mag weighs 3.845kg. The listed weight for both the 350 Mag and the D460 is 3.900kg. My D48 weighed 4.175kg. The listed weight for the D48 is 4.200kg.

The listed weight for the underlever Weihrauchs are:

HW77:     4.100kg
HW97:     4.200kg
HW77SE: 4.300kg

That's a 200 - 400 gram (7 - 14 oz.) nominal, but up to 455 gram + (1lbs.+) actual weight difference between the non-sidelever magnum Dianas and the underlever Weihrauchs, for the benefit of the Dianas.

The high mass of the Weihrauchs is especially punishing, given their output level of 40% under the Dianas, or "bang for the pound".

[SpiralGroove]

Keep in mind, the very best Diana's substantially out-weigh the HW77/HW97 (were talking D54/D56).
The D48/D460 and D350 are at most 8 ounces less.

Not true. My 350 Mag weighs 3.845kg. The listed weight for both the 350 Mag and the D460 is 3.900kg. My D48 weighed 4.175kg. The listed weight for the D48 is 4.200kg.

The listed weight for the underlever Weihrauchs are:

HW77:     4.100kg
HW97:     4.200kg
HW77SE: 4.300kg

That's a 200 - 400 gram (7 - 14 oz.) nominal, but up to 455 gram + (1lbs.+) actual weight difference between the non-sidelever magnum Dianas and the underlever Weihrauchs, for the benefit of the Dianas.

The high mass of the Weihrauchs is especially punishing, given their output level of 40% under the Dianas, or "bang for the pound".

The airguns discussed above weigh: (According to AOA website).

HW77 - 8.8 lbs     D56 - 11.1 lbs
HW98 - 8.8 lbs     D54 - 9.9   lbs
HW80 - 8.8 lbs     D48 - 9.3  lbs
HW90 - 8.8 lbs     D460 - 8.6 lbs
HW98 - 8.6 lbs     D350 - 8.6 lbs

So according to AOA, I would say the D54 and D56 significantly out weigh all Weihrauch models.
The next German made Diana's are within a couple of ounces of quality HW offerings.



PS: Hector - You're silver tongue marksman .



Edited to remove political reference..

C'mon guys, we all know better.

[Mark 611]

LOL!! that's funny! But very true, we all know Diana's are power houses out of the box, but? they don't have the build quality of HW period, the 34 or 95 class of power plants including the 77,97 95/R9 HW85 are all equal as far as power, The 80/R1 maxed out is a 20ftlb rifle in .22cal. that's more than enough power for anything you should be shooting with a springer air gun! IMO, I don't know of anything 20ftlbs in .22cal won't dispatch at reasonable distances? again with a spring piston air gun! I have owned more 48"s and 460mags in .22cal 350mags in .22cal and HW80's or R1's in .22cal than most of you can shake a stick at! so your arguments in this are pointless! this all comes down fit and finish and quality and accuracy and fit and feel of the rifle in your hands!

[SpiralGroove]

Yeah Mark ,

Sorry Avator ,
As Frank Burns from "Mash" would say: Tox's comments "Gripes My Cookies".

[SpiralGroove]

Keep in mind, the very best Diana's substantially out-weigh the HW77/HW97 (were talking D54/D56).
The D48/D460 and D350 are at most 8 ounces less.

Not true. My 350 Mag weighs 3.845kg. The listed weight for both the 350 Mag and the D460 is 3.900kg. My D48 weighed 4.175kg. The listed weight for the D48 is 4.200kg.

The listed weight for the underlever Weihrauchs are:

HW77:     4.100kg
HW97:     4.200kg
HW77SE: 4.300kg

That's a 200 - 400 gram (7 - 14 oz.) nominal, but up to 455 gram + (1lbs.+) actual weight difference between the non-sidelever magnum Dianas and the underlever Weihrauchs, for the benefit of the Dianas.

The high mass of the Weihrauchs is especially punishing, given their output level of 40% under the Dianas, or "bang for the pound".

The airguns discussed above weigh: (According to AOA website).

HW77 - 8.8 lbs     D56 - 11.1 lbs
HW98 - 8.8 lbs     D54 - 9.9   lbs
HW80 - 8.8 lbs     D48 - 9.3  lbs
HW90 - 8.8 lbs     D460 - 8.6 lbs
HW98 - 8.6 lbs     D350 - 8.6 lbs

So according to AOA, I would say the D54 and D56 significantly out weigh all Weihrauch models.
The next German made Diana's are within a couple of ounces of quality HW offerings.



PS: Hector - You're silver tongue marksman .

OOps ..... HW97K - 8.8 lbs 

               HW97 - 9.0 lbs --- but who buys that one anyway .... not many .

[lloyd-ss]

Being mostly a lurker these days, I try to only contribute to threads that have interesting content where I hope my comments won't muck up the good points that others have already made. Two excellent brands of springers are being discussed, both with fairly clean records and histories, and each with their own dedicated group of cult followers. There are definite strengths and weaknesses (however slight) to both, and these characteristics set them apart from each other. In a way we are trying to compare apples and oranges, and as Hector so eloquently put it, we are all looking for something similar, but different, but in the end, it might just be some intangible quality that tips the scales one way or the other. and we might stay tipped that direction forever. I got an Air King as my first REAL airgun many years ago, and it was love at first sight (bad pun), and I still really love it and have had it apart and together many times, and even made what I think is an improvement to the carrier slides and rods. (BTW, it has left more than one bloody scope circle on a forehead.) Again, two excellent brands, but which is better?
It depends on who you ask. Again, many years ago when I was a bit younger, I had a boss who was a very difficult person to work for (I am keeping it polite). He once said at a meeting, "There is no reality, it is all perception." For some reason that really peed me off. OF COURSE there is reality and we can easily measure the differences! But now, years later I see that there was a fair amount of truth to what he said. My perception of my Air King is my reality. I am not going to try and convince you that it is better than your gun (and BTW, JEEZ, my 54 is heavy), but mine works for me, and yours works just as well for you. More emotion might be stirred up in arguing about who has the better air gun, than in arguing over who has the better wife or girl friend, LOL.
But we are all winners in the discussion if you have the gun that you always wanted.
Just my thoughts.
Please carry on with the discussion.

[Yogi]

Kirk,

HW 98 is on the list twice.  Once at 8.8lbs once at 8.6 lbs.

-Y

[Yogi]

Being mostly a lurker these days, I try to only contribute to threads that have interesting content where I hope my comments won't muck up the good points that others have already made. Two excellent brands of springers are being discussed, both with fairly clean records and histories, and each with their own dedicated group of cult followers. There are definite strengths and weaknesses (however slight) to both, and these characteristics set them apart from each other. In a way we are trying to compare apples and oranges, and as Hector so eloquently put it, we are all looking for something similar, but different, but in the end, it might just be some intangible quality that tips the scales one way or the other. and we might stay tipped that direction forever. I got an Air King as my first REAL airgun many years ago, and it was love at first sight (bad pun), and I still really love it and have had it apart and together many times, and even made what I think is an improvement to the carrier slides and rods. (BTW, it has left more than one bloody scope circle on a forehead.) Again, two excellent brands, but which is better?
It depends on who you ask. Again, many years ago when I was a bit younger, I had a boss who was a very difficult person to work for (I am keeping it polite). He once said at a meeting, "There is no reality, it is all perception." For some reason that really peed me off. OF COURSE there is reality and we can easily measure the differences! But now, years later I see that there was a fair amount of truth to what he said. My perception of my Air King is my reality. I am not going to try and convince you that it is better than your gun (and BTW, JEEZ, my 54 is heavy), but mine works for me, and yours works just as well for you. More emotion might be stirred up in arguing about who has the better air gun, than in arguing over who has the better wife or girl friend, LOL.
But we are all winners in the discussion if you have the gun that you always wanted.
Just my thoughts.
Please carry on with the discussion.

All good points!  I believe that my Hatsan 95 Votec shoots better with Crossman hollow points than Crossman domes.  Same size and weight.  Because I believe this, when I pull the trigger the reality is self evident!  People can have their own opinions but not their own facts.  Since which is better is 100 % subjectivity, reality does not matter, in this case.

-Yogi

PS how often have you shot better groups with a pellet that you KNOW your gun does not like, than with it's favorite pellet???

[avator]

Betty Lou and I shoot together often and for that reason we have purchased guns in pairs. When the 2 guns arrived we each randomly picked a box and opened them for the first time together. Hers remained hers and mine remained mine. On occasion I shot her gun and she shot my gun but we always ended up wanting our own guns back each claiming our gun was the better of the 2.
I'm sure it's because there are minute differences in all guns, even identical makes and models and we get used to those small differences to the point that we expect them to be there. We notice when they are not and possibly notice new slightly different characteristics in another gun even more.

[SpiralGroove]

Kirk,

HW 98 is on the list twice.  Once at 8.8lbs once at 8.6 lbs.

-Y

Yeah Y,
My 114 post was an attempt to fix that typo ..........