GTA
Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 and springers ,rams => Support Equipment For PCP/HPA/CO2 => Topic started by: Taso1000 on January 23, 2017, 12:39:25 PM
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Hi All,
I recently bought a Shoebox Max. So I am trying to plan out how to remove contaminants and water from the compressed air supply. I am basically starting from scratch with a Craftsman 25 gallon 4 hp 7.0 cfm @ 90 psi compressor.
The Shoebox I got has a few upgrades. It has hardened pistons, the felt silicone oil oilers, belt drive and a pressure switch instead of the slapper system. It also came with a Drierite Laboratory Air and Gas Drying unit with 1/8 npt fittings, lots of drying media, a Campbell Hausfeld Air Cleaner/Dryer (PA208503AV) with an additional desiccant dryer unit. I will most likely only use the first unit as it's an oil-removal filter that traps 99.9 percent of all oil aerosols, allegedly.
I have on order SMC AMG150C-N02D Water Separator. What I think I also need is a first line of filtration, a particulate filter. I'd like one that works good and isn't expensive to maintain.
So here is where I need help. I have read that humidity in my air supply needs to be less than 50% to avoid corrosion. The SMC water separator will remove 99% of water drops from the compressed air but the humidity will be 100% and that an air dryer is recommended to lower the humidity.
So I looked into refrigerated and membrane air driers. Since the Shoebox only requires .2 cfm during operation the smaller capacity driers will work. The refrigerated and membrane dryers I have found are around $200. I am not sure how much humidity the refrigerated dryer removes but the membrane dryer states it will bring humidity into the single digits and requires no power.
Since the .2 cfm flow rate is so low do you think I would need an aftercooler straight after the compressor? If I get the refrigerated dryer, will I need to warm up the air or leave it cooled to boost the Shoebox efficiency?\
I will also need a little help in the order of the components. I am thinking this is the order: Craftsman compressor, aftercooler, particulate filter, oil separator, water separator, air dryer and lastly the Shoebox.
Since my flow rate is low, .2 cfm, but working time is longer, about 4 hours to fill my 44 cubic foot tank from 3000 - 4500 psi, would the Drierite dryer have the capacity and bring the humidity below 50%? There have been some threads recently where it has been stated that the drier media is saturated much earlier than the color change. I am confused.
I think I understand dew point but when you add temperature and pressure I get lost. Maybe someone could explain this better for dummies like me. ;D
Thank you All in advance as I am excited to get this all connected and running.
Taso
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high pressure air dryer goes LAST. It does the final drop down to target humidity level AT PRESSURE.
Otherwise, compression by the Shoebox brings dew point back up.
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guykuo,
Thank you for your response. I'm trying to avoid the 4500 psi air dryer if I can. All the components I am trying to use work at ~100 psi. So my question to you, if the humidity in the air, water vapor, before the Shoebox is reduced to < 10% what does it matter if the dew point goes up but there is only < 10% humidity?
Like I said in my first post, I am a water vapor dummy and I am trying to understand. ;D Is the < 50% humidity number wrong to eliminate corrosion? Is < 10% not low enough?
Thank you,
Taso
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RH% and dew point can be converted between each other. They are both expressions of water content.
Look here for more detailed discussion of dryers.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=120428.msg1167974#msg1167974 (http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=120428.msg1167974#msg1167974)
If you use the two referenced calculators there you can do the computations. Sorry, I am not allowed to post external links. So, I had to munge the addresses somewhat.
Feed 10% RH air at 100 PSI into the Shoebox. Compress it to 4500 PSI, the resultant dew point is 115F.
If expressed as relative humidity% that would be 380% humidity after compressing the 10% RH 100 PSI air through the Shoebox up to 4500 PSI.
Post compression in the Shoebox, that 10% RH air now has so high a concentration, water will condense at temperatures ABOVE room air!
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Sounds like you might have bought Norm's Shoebox. :)
While I can't answer your specific question, it does sound like you already have plenty of drying compared to most. Most just have some desiccant and particle filter between the 1st stage compressor and the shoebox. Just keep an eye on the desiccant. Also, given your large pump, the tank will stay cold and less water will be going to the SB, than most peoples set-ups. The high pressure side water filter is probably the best, but agree it is very costly, and I have no plans to add one to mine.
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John,
Yes, I was the one that bought Norm's Shoebox. ;D I'm just trying to get as much information as I can to create a safe and effective setup. I don't want any oils igniting or my guns and tanks rusting and affecting their structural integrity.
In case you haven't noticed, I do geek out a little as I enjoy researching and picking out components. I also am frugal and like to stretch my money and have a effective setup.
Hearing that I am going overboard in water reduction is a good sign. I wish I knew how much was realistically enough.
Since my compressor isn't quiet it will sit out in the detached garage with no climate control. Cold in the winter and humid in the summer. I have considered bringing everything inside except the compressor and running an air hose into the house. I think I'd rather have the hpa stuff in the garage for safety though.
I looked for a sticky or an hpa water management for dummies post but couldn't find one.
So your and everyone else's help is greatly appreciated! :D
Thank you,
Taso
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Taso,
It wasn't hard to guess it was norms, not many people have put the pressure switch on the SB Max.
I know there were a few set-ups posted on the shoebox forum. Also Alan over at the marauder forum had posted back a year or two ago, his set-up, large desiccant filter followed by particle filter. Pretty sure he was running a oil-less compressor, though.
In general, it seems like the larger the desiccant filter, the better. I only use two inline "disposable" desiccant filters. Those did fine with working with guppu and the slightly smaller 90ci paintball tanks, but filling a 60-minute from zero required a change out mid fill from zero. I run both compressors in the house, though.
Probably not an issue, since you will be running in your garage, which probably has GFI, but if not might consider adding it. The SB wiring is not what I would call "standard" practice. The shutoff switch is on neutral side of the motor. So, it is possible that a connector can come off and complete circuit thru the metal chassis. GFI's are cheap, so just added it vs rewiring the SB. I discussed with Tom, but not sure if new SB's are different. Yours is older than mine, so suspect the wiring is the same.
PS: yea, I noticed when you posted about your fill assys. ;)
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Taso I think you are overthinking the moisture issue as with all the air dryers on that system I do not think you will ever see moist air coming out of your SB.
If you keep an eye on the color change of the desiccant beads in the two Campbell Hausfeld units and dry them out as soon as the turn color you will seldom see the Drierite beads change color. I think from the day I installed the Drierite unit to the time you purchased the complete SB setup I only had to dry the Drierite once in over a year.
IMO all the drying units on this SB setup is already a bit overboard but I if I was going to do anything more I would go with JB's high pressure drying unit
Norm
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There certainly is a dichotomy between what air gunners accept as dry enough to be in the tank vs what the high pressure gas and diving community rate as safe for equipment.
Probably contributes to how strongly air gunner questions about compressors are disliked on the scuba forum. For that world, the air gunner compressors are complete junk that shouldn't even be discussed.
Personally, I am conservative and try to reach Grade E air's much lower moisture content for my equipment. That lets me match the recommendations of a wider range of experience than just the limited needs of the airgun community.
Water isn't destroyed by compression. It's going to end up somewhere. Whether it is used up producing oxides inside tanks, at threads, or vented out, I really want no part of it with 4500 PSI.
You can decide to accept the moisture content or prevent it. It might be just a few ml of water in an entire large tank, but pressure + water + metal is present in the tank if high pressure drying isn't carried out.
User's choice. Just don't ever mention what you are doing in the diving community. You will be ridiculed.
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I know i get moisture from my shoebox 4500 psi.
I have a desiccant filter AND a water separater between the shoebox and my first compressor and still get moisture, though none in the filter or separater.
The way i know this is when i disconnect the fill hose to my tank, some moisture is on my fingers from the air blowing out. NO, i dont wait until all the air has released once i turn off and vent my bleed hose AND first compressor fittings.
I cant decide if it is worth, what 300$, to stop this from happening.
I keep my shoebox in the basement where temps are in the 65-70 degree range depedning on the season. Right now it is 65 down here.
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If you feed any compressor with air at 3% humidity at 100 psi, and compress the air to 4500 psi, you will end up with air saturated with water vapour (3 x 4500/100) = 135%.... You need to feed any HPA compressor with the driest air possible, or you will end up with water in your tank.... The good news is that when you use your tank to fill your gun, the air in the gun (which will be at a lower pressure) will no longer have 100% humidity.... If you start at 100% at 4500 psi, and fill a gun to 3000 psi, you will have 67% RH in your gun.... The only way to be 100% sure you have dry air in your HP tank is to dry the air after it is compressed to 4500 psi....
and BTW, I don't, I just dry my air after my shop compressor.... using two silica gel moisture traps in series, and reactivate the gel by heating before the 2nd one turns pink (from blue)....
Bob
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Everyone,
Thank you for your responses. What I can't get my head around is how we start with a relative humidity of say 3% ok? I'm just gonna use general concepts as I am a computer science and not a physics major. I did take a year of physics in high school though. I wish I had taken more but it's never to late to learn.
So back to what I was saying. Lets generalize and say at 3% humidity, at 70 degrees and 100 psi, there is 1 ounce of water vapor in a cubic foot of air. If we compress this air to 4500 psi to fill a 46 cubic foot tank say as a generalization that it took 100 cubic feet of air. so my brain wants to think that the tank has the same proportion of air to water as it did at 100 psi since we're not only compressing air or adding more water vapor from somewhere. So now we have 100 cubic feet of air and 100 ounces of water vapor. Why is the humidity not 3% but instead 45 times that? This is what I don't understand. In a closed system where does the extra water come from? I understand that in an open system the water vapor will be drawn to the abnormally dry air and maintain equilibrium.
I get what dew point is. I get that warmer air can hold more water. I also get that increasing pressure increase the dew point. Since we are mechanically stripping the water out of our air it can't reappear in a closed system.
So say we have a cubic foot of air in a sealed container at room temperature of 70 degrees, at normal atmospheric pressure and a dew point of 60 degrees. If we drop the air temperature down to 40 degrees fahrenheit water vapor will condense out. So we remove this condensed water and some outside air will be sucked in to take up the volume of the water we removed and equalize pressure from the internal air contracting. Lets just say it is miniscule enough to not affect our experiment. If we bring the sealed container back to 70 degrees the effective dew point has decreased correct?
I am going to stop here for now because my brain needs a break lol. I hope what I'm saying makes a little sense.
Thanks for all your help in trying to clear this all up!
Taso
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"In a closed system where does the extra water come from?"
It isn't extra water. It is water that is already present in the air. What has changed is the volume in which that same amount of air and water are now squeezed into. The decreased volume is not able to hold the same amount of water. So, it has to condense and humidity level goes way up.
Think of it more easily as the water being incompressible while the sponge in which it is being held (the air) is squeezed by the compressor. You mechanically wring the water out. That water has to go somewhere. Whether it is mechanically separated, absorbed by a drying filter, or pumped into the tank. It continues to exist. It is not destroyed by compression.
The pre-dryers help by being a bulk water remover, just like a mechanical separator. Just remember that compression will still increase the RH% of the pre-dried air. You need it extremely low recompression if your goal is a low RH% at the compressed side. Hence, the big boy compressors always bulk remove water and follow up with a high pressure dryer.
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Man, I would save the money from buying all that stuff and buy another air rifle. ;D
I have a very early Shoebox, zero upgrades. I live in the always humid southeast. I have a little water separator at the inlet of my Shoebox, and haven't seen a drop of water in it in 5 years of use. I think the air moves slow enough through my 6 foot hose that it condenses in the hose and runs back to the compressor.
And for the Shoebox outlet at 4500psi, I just open the bleed while it's running once an hour, or every half hour. There is always a puff of condensation that comes out.
That being said, I've never seen any moisture at the end of my 30" whip hose coming out of the Shoebox. So I never could justify the cost and hassle of adding anything else.
All of my PCP airtubes have been apart for reseals or work over the years, and I've never seen any corrosion in the tubes.
If I were you, before I spent all the extra money on filters, driers, and all that, I would just hook the thing up and see how much moisture you get from the end of the line. You may decide you don't need any of it....
Just my opinion, and what works for me. ;)
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I use a home made desiccant filter 2.5" round 15" long from my shop compressor, and another Home Depot desiccant filter on top of my shoebox. When the filter on my shoebox starts to change color I will replace the beads in my home made filter and replace my Home Depot filter with a new one. :)
I hope this would all I need for my guns, it is not like I am breathing the air in my tank. LOL
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Airguns do seem to be more tolerant of water. Yes, the air going into the gun will depressurize and drop in RH% relative to the tank. Does that also mean tanks and valves in airgun tanks are also more resistant to corrosion than those used for diving? It's the same tanks, just we have it at even higher pressure.
On the other hand we're talking about $400 for a good quality high side filter to protect thousands of dollars in tanks and guns.
Owner's choice how much protection one wishes to bet upon.
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Chase,
What's the fun in that? ;) And if I get this set up right I can supply more pcp's. ;D
Guykuo,
So you're mostly talking about the 10% of water vapor that's left over after all that I have removed. I think I am understanding now. So in the end I will still have some condensed water in my 30 minute scba tank. That I get.
So is the claim that < 50% humidity will not allow corrosion wrong? I was curious and searched for water and hpa. I didn't find anything to confirm it but I think that if there's moisture and oxygen, a lot more in hpa, that corrosion will happen. What would be cool is if we could use some corrosion inhibiting treatment in our hpa vessels that isn't combustible.
All,
I may have found a better deal, cheaper ;D , on a membrane air dryer that will bring dew point to -20 celsius. Also I think a small hvac heat exchanger instead of 50 foot of copper tubing will work better and be cheaper. At the shoebox flow rate I doubt there will be any significant flow reduction from all the tubing bends versus the straight flexible copper coil.
My water separator order was cancelled by the seller. >:( So I'm still looking for a particulate/oil filter and a water separator.
I'm learning a lot and my design is getting more refined and cheaper, if everything works out. I will definitely be using the Drierite canister right before the Shoebox.
Hopefully tonight I will be able to post pictures and a system layout.
Thanks!
Taso
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(http://i1356.photobucket.com/albums/q733/barnydaddy/8d8161039e3c6aad5a38971d072dfa2b_zpsrzdt808k.jpg)
As you can see I run my Max with two desiccant filters from HF.
Works good for me.
When the beads change color, I dump them out on a metal plate and heat them til they turn back.
Good luck.
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Yes, I'm talking abut that residual amount that comes out post pre-filtering and mechanical separation. A high side filter can only handle a small volume. It simply is very good at drying down very low AT output pressure and temperature. The lower side filter or mechanical separator gets out the bulk. The high side filter takes care of the residual to drive things super dry.
I haven't found any good information about RH% vs corrosion rate at our high pressure air levels. In the absence of that, I chose to follow high pressure gas and diving industry practice and try to get things down to -55F condensing. Basically, avoid the gambling aspect completely.
Mucked up gun internals I can tolerate. What I really don't want happening are corrosive effects at the threads of high pressure vessels. There, it is a tight space, where just a little moisture can wreak havoc once a point of corrosion begins. One might get away with it. I think lots of air gunners DO get away with it. Problem, is that won't be detected until disassembly and close inspection or something really bad happens. You can find some scary images of corroded tank internals and threads getting eaten away.
The small volumes of water I am worried about probably won't be detectable once one depressurizes a tank. It will vaporize. Also, if corrosion IS happening, that small volume of water may well be used up in the chemical reaction. How many of us are taking a sample of our compressor air output and submitting it for $200/$300 gas analysis? No one. We are left with trying to do the right thing by following known safe procedures.
This is a case where all will look good until it isn't. With 2 grenades worth of energy in my CF tank and filling the tank while in close proximity to it, I opted for more caution than less.
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Guykuo,
I definitely agree safety is top priority. Maybe we should get hydrotests more often than 5 years?
My only reservation with the 4500 psi filter was that I read somewhere that they saturate faster than expected? Plus there is a much smaller volume for media versus what can easily be built at home for use at ~125 psi. So a much larger amount of water vapor can be removed before the Shoebox.
So since it is easier on the low side why not try to remove the most we can? That's all. No method is more or less correct. But my intent is not to produce breathable air.
That's a discussion for others lol.
On the aftercooler, can anyone estimate how much of a temperature reduction will 25,000 btu make? Say our inlet temp is 100 or 200 degrees farenheit. I've attached a picture of the cooler I found. I don't think it is the exact model because the one I'm asking about is 8" by 8" for $31.
Thank you,
Taso
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Yes, the high side dryer has a very limited capacity.
That's why you SHOULD pair it with something to do bulk drying. Otherwise, you will use up the media life very quickly. Because the Shoebox does not have a debulking capability (no separator post compression / no intrinsic pre-dryer) you should have an intermediate pressure drying filter before the Shoebox.
I would go with an intermediate pressure dryer as the debulking step because pre-drying at atmospheric won't let you use as much media capacity before the output of the filter goes up too high in humidity. An intermediate pressure drier lets you use more of the media capacity and still deliver lower humidity air TO the Shoebox. That leaves just a little for the high side dryer to scrub out.
Run just a high side dryer and it has to absorb ALL the water content all by itself.
Use your legs and back (intermediate filter or mechanical separator) to do the heavy lift. Use your fingers (high pressure dryer) to make the fine adjustments.
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My tanks are too new to have needed their first hydro test, so have a couple of questions related to that and oxidation of the aluminum. I know there is some form of physical inspection that is done on the tank. Does that include a bore-scope type device to check for internal oxidation? I thought it was just an external inspection. Removing the SS valve every 5 years, for the hydro, would seem to be sufficient to check oxidation on threads, but that can be easily done on a more frequent basis. Or is this a more galvanic process between dis-similar metals with the water vapor as catalyst? The reason I ask, for the most part aluminum oxidation is forming a protective coat, I thought. Has anyone had a tank fail inspection due to oxidation?
Frank, I'm still with you with two HF filters and only using small tanks. :)
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John,
What I know from hydro-testing is...
A physical exterior inspection.
Remove and install another valve.
Inflate to 7000psi.
Throw the tank into a pool of water for a certain period of time and check for leaks.
Deflate the tank and replace the orginal valve (don't forget the valve oring).
Put sticker on tank.
Return to owner.
I asked my local fire department who did their hydro testing?
"We don't."
"Five years...new tanks."
I hear there is some thought of extending the total lifespan of the carbon fiber tanks. But I haven't heard anything recently. Maybe Joe in Huntington Beach would know but, he is in the business of selling tanks so maybe he would keep the information to himself.
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What I've been able to dig up regarding aluminum tank failures and inspections is primarily regarding the solid aluminum tanks. A full inspection is supposed to include visual inspection including use of lighting and view devices inside the tank. Apparently 80% of the tanks condemned during inspection were NOT on the basis of the hydro results, but visual detection of cracks, pitting, and thread degradation. It seems a hydro in and of itself is insufficient. A trained inspector should visually detect those defects.
Now that was with the solid aluminum tanks. The carbon fiber wound tanks that we are using have a thinner aluminum bladder that manages to withstand the pressure by virtue of the wound fiber shell. Thread issues are the same but we have a thinner metal wall.
Crevice Corrosion and Stress Corrosion Cracking are the kinds I'm most worried about at our threads and tank walls. See w w w.totalmateria.com/page.aspx?ID=CheckArticle&site=ktn&NM=187
It's not like we are seeing our tanks blowing up left and right. It's a rare event. I just don't want to be an event.
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I've also read that they are supposed to measure the water the cylinder displaced in the test chamber. Then they are supposed to pressurize the cylinder and see if the volume displaced increases. If it does or too much they fail the cylinder.
Taso
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Frank, I have heard that too, but no details. I suspect a ruling would have to come from the DOT, though.
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I ran into an article by a tank inspection company that gave some details regarding the DOT and extending the lifespan beyond 15 years. Gas industry feedback was against making such a change in operating procedure. After that feedback, the DOT put that proposal on the back burner.
Also some interesting stuff about eddy current testing of tanks. Doesn't seem to be universally applicable to all tanks. The alloy used can produce false positives and fail tanks needlessly.
I don't have all the links handy but here are two... Again these are for solid aluminum tanks.
w w w.psicylinders.com/inspectors/library/35-cracking-and-ruptures-of-scba-and-scuba-aluminum-cylinders-made-from-6351-alloy
w w w.luxfercylinders.com/press-releases/aluminium-tanks-what-every-diver-should-know
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Hi All,
I was able to get the membrane air dryer for a real good price. the seller accepted my offer of $80:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Applied-Materials-AMAT-4020-00172-SMC-IDG1-N02-P-DRYER-20C-CDA-1-4FNPT-10LPM-/281755714629?hash=item4199f30445:g:aTMAAOSwstxVYD~e (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Applied-Materials-AMAT-4020-00172-SMC-IDG1-N02-P-DRYER-20C-CDA-1-4FNPT-10LPM-/281755714629?hash=item4199f30445:g:aTMAAOSwstxVYD~e)
I'm trying not to buy retail but to find good deals or used in very good condition. This air drier has a 10 year life when used 10 hours a day as long as it does not get contaminated with oil and I guess dirt too. That's 36,500 hours. I will never come close to that usage.
I don't think the design of the aftercooler i pictured will work for my needs. There are too many loops where water will get trapped whatever orientation it is in.
I think a plate type, parallel flow transmission cooler with tanks on either end will allow gravity to move condensed water out of the way if the tanks are mounted top and bottom. Unless I can find a small one it will be overkill. Oh well.
Thanks,
Taso
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Interesting alternative drying method.
I can't find the working pressure for the filter you linked.
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Guykuo,
I've attached the closest I could find to a spec sheet. It says .3 - .85 MPa. So about 43.5 - 123.3 psi.
Thanks,
Taso
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Sorry,
I forgot to post the link to the full document:
http://www.smcpneumatics.com/pdfs/IDG.pdf (http://www.smcpneumatics.com/pdfs/IDG.pdf)
Thanks,
Taso
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The long useful life is especially enticing for your debulking dryer. Nice find.
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Hi All,
I found my aftercooler. I bought a Hayden Automotive 1240 Heavy Duty Oil Cooler:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HE8VQ4/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HE8VQ4/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
There was one on Amazon Warehouse deals for $37.45 last night so I grabbed it. There is also a 1215 model for $21. I'm not sure if the picture is for the actual item but the 1215 is 4.5 inches wide versus 6.5 for the 1240. I was afraid the 1215 would only have 2 long tubes. It's supposed to be copper construction with "swirl" technology lol in the tubes to exchange more heat. I am going to run Simple Green through it in both directions to make sure it is oil free.
I will mount it vertically and rotated a couple degrees so the condensed water runs out. I'm hoping, since it is made of copper, to offset the inlet and seal off the factory inlet. I can solder copper tubing but I've never brazed. I guess I will learn if I need to.
So now I'm still looking for a particle filter, an oil separator, and a water separator. I liked what I saw in the SMC filters and they looked like very good construction with reasonably priced consumables.
I will need one or two pressure regulators. The membrane dryer states that a regulator should be mounted downstream of it. The Shoebox states that it needs between 85 and 100 psi. I don't know exactly my compressors shutoff point so I have to find that out. Also I want to replace the mickey mouse regulator and gauges on the Sears compressor and add a "t" with two quick disconnects. While I have that apart I will look for the leak that has plagued it since I bought it.
I'm also going to mount the the aftercooler and filters to a board and maybe eventually to a square tube frame. Maybe ;) (I have a dc arc welder I bought cheap that I have yet to learn how to use.)
So compressor, filter board and Shoebox will be independent.
Lot's of work but it's coming together. ;D
Thank you,
Taso
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The long useful life is especially enticing for your debulking dryer. Nice find.
Guykuo,
Thank you but I got lucky in my google searches. I didn't know anything about dryers or filters or cooler 2 weeks ago. Like I said, I geek out when I want to create something. I love researching and learning. ;D lol
Taso
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I picked the particle, oil and water separator/filter. I decided on a single unit versus 2 separate units, SMC AFF2C-N02C-T
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SMC-1-4-Main-Line-Filter-w-Element-Service-Indicator-Auto-Drain-10-CFM-/331334610383?hash=item4d2514edcf:g:MT8AAOSwd0BVqRs8 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/SMC-1-4-Main-Line-Filter-w-Element-Service-Indicator-Auto-Drain-10-CFM-/331334610383?hash=item4d2514edcf:g:MT8AAOSwd0BVqRs8)
Once my wallet recovers I'll pick up two regulators. ;D I think one between the filter board and the compressor but I'n not sure of the one downstream of the membrane dryer.
So the order I am thinking for the filter board is: regulator, aftercooler, particle/oil/water filter, membrane drier and lastly the Drierite unit. Should I put the second regulator at the end of the line right before the Shoebox or should I put it between the membrane and the Drierite unit?
What are good options for interconnects? I was thinking flexible hose between the compressor, the filter board and the Shoebox.
I'm not sure what to use between the components on the filter board. I wouldn't mind flexible copper tubing but I'm worried about vibration. There is braided rubber type hose but I'd rather not use barbs and hose clamps.
Thank you,
Taso
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I made a layout schematic to visualize. Take it easy on me as it's the first time doing something like that. ;D
Thanks,
Taso
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That looks like a reasonable configuration to me.
Most of your connections are going to be on the lower pressure side of things. So, I think your connections will be more forgiving. I agree with avoiding hose clamps, though.
With the unlimited capacity of the membrane dryer, you have a good fighting chance.
Remember my calculations in the other thread about drying requirements for BETWEEN main and Shoebox compressors. We need to bring RH down to 1.8% RH at 72 F and intermediate 100 PSI pressure. The problem with that was if you only used a desiccant medium, it would lose its ability to get the air down that dry when on 1/10 of its capacity was used up. After that, the output RH% would not longer be low enough to keep the 4500 PSI output also non-condensing at room temperature. Since, the color indicators change somewhere over 50%, that would mean 4/5 of the running time your dessicant dryer is already be "spent" before it changes color.
Your adding the molecular sieve ahead of the desiccant changes things greatly in your favor. You effectively increase your drying capacity multifold.
Your desiccant ends up seeing a much lower load. It still will only be 1/10 of its capacity usable and won't change color until too late, but I'm thinking your molecular sieve could delay that state greatly if it does the job of dropping RH% down to the 1-2% range by itself.
I recall reading somewhere about someone rigging up a vertical metal column post their Shoebox to act as a water separator.
If that was large enough to...
1. Allow cooling the output high pressure air down to room temperature
2. Have enough volume to contain all the condensate, you would have an additional bulk drying stage.
That's really the first thing I would redesign on the Shoebox. Add a chamber in the block for condensate collection and removal.
An after market add-on would need extra engineering due to the need to withstand 4500 PSI.
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Taso,
You are headed toward the most elaborate SB system I've seen. Once done, make sure you post on the SB forum.
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John,
Thank you. I hope it's effective. In theory it should be.
The .2 cfm flow rate of the Shoebox helps a lot. But it takes a lot more time to fill a tank versus other boosters. I also wanted to start the filling of a cylinder and leave it run over night. I didn't want to babysit the whole process.
I do overkill very often though. I like eking out that last bit of efficiency. I did save money where I thought used components wouldn't affect performance.
Now to get it all assembled and see how it works. It would be cool if I could measure the actual humidity of a filtered air sample. Maybe I could capture some filtered air in a jar and put it in the freezer. Once it freezes I and see what ice crystals are there?
Thanks,
Taso
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Yeah. The formal testing labs are pricey. You're talking $200+ to have one sample analyzed.
Dive shops have to do it, but that is too expensive for us air gunners.
However, there ARE some reasonably priced (<$100), visual, high pressure, humidity indicators that will let one check moisture level coming out of a Shoebox or other high pressure compressor.
Some dive compressor owners who want absolute certainty that their output is dry use them. These change color if humidity goes up and have a clear window built to withstand 6000 PSI pressure.
Because they work on the HIGH side output, they indicate what is actually coming out of the system and warn you before you put excess water vapor into your tank.
www.augustindustries.com/visual-indicator-ind-mois.asp (http://www.augustindustries.com/visual-indicator-ind-mois.asp) $60
www.augustindustries.com/moisture-indicator-disk-kit-mois.asp (http://www.augustindustries.com/moisture-indicator-disk-kit-mois.asp) $11
Cool! looks like I'm allowed to post actual links now. ;D
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Regardless of your final configuration, for the first bottle fill, would monitor the whole process. How big of bottle are you going to be filling?
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John,
Right now I only have a 30 minute fire fighter scba tank.
Taso
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John,
Right now I only have a 30 minute fire fighter scba tank.
Taso
That might be a good compromise in size. I found the 60-minute too large, and taking too long to fill, but I don't like leaving it unattended. That AC motor gets fairly warm while running. I like the guppy (115ci) and 90ci size, because they take just a little over a hour to fill. I run the input pressure at 90-95psi.
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John,
I lucked out. It was my first tank and got it for $60. Now I understand the relative sizes. A fire chief I know has allegedly put aside two tanks for me. I don't want to pester him but next time I see him I'm going to ask if I can pick them up.
If those don't materialize I'll look for smaller tanks.
I think the big tanks are for saving trips to get refilled or possible big bore, air hog rifles.
Thanks,
Taso
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If you do decide to add the $100 visual indicator to measure output moisture level, you should also add a valve to seal your fill whip.
Between uses, you would close the whip and the Shoebox bleed valves to prevent moisture getting into the indicator.
My Bauer Jr fill whip has a valve to keep the high pressure filter tower pressurized between uses. In theory, that keeps the desiccant protected from room air moisture, but in real life, their isn't a check valve on the input side of 3rd cylinder. Pressure gradually drops over a few days. If I were a diver using this compressor every few days, pressurization would not drop to zero. As an air gunner, I only fire it up once a month to top off my GW tank. So, that pressure does drop to zero. This is a case of SOP being ok for near daily SCUBA users vs not quite applicable for air gunner's much less frequent usage pattern.
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Guy,
Thank you. I was thinking on how to seal out the whole filter system as I don't want it absorbing ambient moisture when not in use. I'm sure I can put a shut of valve at the input but I will have to make a female deadhead for the Shoebox output. I may have to make the membrane drier removable as that has a vent to atmosphere to discharge the filtered moisture. Or maybe a piece of tape will suffice since this is where the moisture comes out anyway. It should be able to go back in through the permeable membrane. I was thinking of making a saddle type collector and hose to route the removed water from the membrane drier into a container. I my do that instead and just plug the hose when it's not in use.
All,
I also did some research on desiccant media. I have Drierite which is CaSo4. It dries to -100 degrees F dew point which is freaking good! I was curious how it compares to silica gel (-40F), I have some, and molecular sieve (-100F).
I found this website that compares them all:
https://www.sorbentsystems.com/desiccants_charts.html (https://www.sorbentsystems.com/desiccants_charts.html)
I think I'm going to use molecular sieve in the drier as it has a much higher moisture holding capacity. I think 4a is the correct size. Can anyone confirm?
Guy,
If I'm drying to -100 dew point, I don't think that humidity indicator will work. Do you have any other suggestions?
Thank you,
Taso
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The indicator is to verify that you are indeed delivering dry enough air to your tank. It is an objective warning device. If you start to see it change color (30% or higher humidity) you are delivering air that is wet enough to condense around 68F. This is assuming air coming out of the Shoebox is 100F and 4500 PSI.
If you manage to already have -100F dew point air coming OUT of the Shoebox at 4500 PSI, you are plenty dry. The indicator will let you know if you are not. I think it is a reasonable measure especially since you are putting together a system no one else has. In that circumstance I would want an objective indication that the final air output was dry enough. This visual indicator is the cheapest way to get that confirmation AND let you know if your drying system is having problems.
I agree with the molecular sieve. It has a higher absorption capacity than either silica gel or CaSO4 at the low humidity ranges desired for HPA.
Molecular sieve 13x is the one divers pack in their drying stacks.
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Yeah. The formal testing labs are pricey. You're talking $200+ to have one sample analyzed.
Dive shops have to do it, but that is too expensive for us air gunners.
However, there ARE some reasonably priced (<$100), visual, high pressure, humidity indicators that will let one check moisture level coming out of a Shoebox or other high pressure compressor.
Some dive compressor owners who want absolute certainty that their output is dry use them. These change color if humidity goes up and have a clear window built to withstand 6000 PSI pressure.
Because they work on the HIGH side output, they indicate what is actually coming out of the system and warn you before you put excess water vapor into your tank.
www.augustindustries.com/visual-indicator-ind-mois.asp (http://www.augustindustries.com/visual-indicator-ind-mois.asp) $60
www.augustindustries.com/moisture-indicator-disk-kit-mois.asp (http://www.augustindustries.com/moisture-indicator-disk-kit-mois.asp) $11
Cool! looks like I'm allowed to post actual links now. ;D
Guy,
With this indicator, does the indicator disk need to be replaced or can it be regenerated? Do you know how big the unit is? I was hoping maybe I can put it right before the male quick disconnect on the hpa side. I'll attach a picture.
My other question about molecular sieve size is because I read that depending on size it can remove nitrogen too. That would not be good. I don't mind removing oxygen so there's no combustion.
3a is too small to trap a water molecule. 4a seems the right size. 13a seems to trap everything lol
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/chemistry/chemical-synthesis/learning-center/technical-bulletins/al-1430/molecular-sieves.html (http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/chemistry/chemical-synthesis/learning-center/technical-bulletins/al-1430/molecular-sieves.html)
Table 3 lists molecular sizes. water is 3.2 angstrom, nitrogen is 3.0A and oxygen is 2.8A. So along with water the 4a media is trapping nitrogen and oxygen?
Thanks,
Taso
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"Variety 13X is the best fomulation for processing diver's air because it is designed to trap water vapor"
I don't pretend to understand the pore size requirements, but if 13X is what has been time proven in drying air for life critical application, there isn't any reason to deviate and try sieves designed for drying liquid chemicals.
The inlet and outlet holes at the indicator housing base are 1/4 NPT. Dimensions 2.5″ L x 1.5″ D
The indicator disc should self regenerate once allowed to dry.
I don't think you can fit it before the male QD. The base would impinge on the Shoebox. Might get away if you add a 90 degree elbow, but I would just put a short whip from the Shoebox to the indicator. Then a valve and a whip from the indicator to your tank. If you keep that valve open, you can still bleed at the Shoebox. Then when all is disconnected, close the valve and the Shoebox bleed.
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FWIW: The shoebox bleed valve is not a robust design. Using it regularly will mean going into that block for repairs. The only time I've used it was when pumping a Mrod direct from zero. There is info somewhere on the SB forum.
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John,
Thank you for the heads up! I have not even run the compressor yet because I been distracted by my mildly neurotic moisture removal plan of attack. lol ;D
I did have an idea for the filter board. I'd like to have all the components sloping to collect water. But instead of a flat board I was thinking of using hinges and make it into square or triangular vertical tube.
I did get two SMC regulators, one with a pre-filter for about $60 last night. I think I will use the copper tubing to interconnect components. I can't see using hose.
That membrane drier was the best find though. The only thing is that it needs to be protected from oil contamination because oil will reduce it's life.
My compressor is oil free buy I don't want to take any chances.
Taso
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I use the little inline low pressure filters going to the shoebox and then I have Joe B's Alpha Filter out to the tank. Seems to work very well. I fill the Guppy and the Great White tanks from Joe B.
Excuse the mess. I just got done insulating the workshop. Got tired of the heat in Florida and out there reloading for a few hours. So the wife and I insulated and installed an AC unit in the wall.
(http://i64.tinypic.com/jqly6r.jpg)
(http://i65.tinypic.com/358qedv.jpg)
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Nice setup. The little intermediate dryers + final drying with the JB unit.
Let's figure out how much water needs to be removed to fill an entire Great White (100 cubic feet, uncompressed)
Assuming 22C (72F) and 50% RH in your work room. Use https://www.ready.noaa.gov/READYmoistcal.php (https://www.ready.noaa.gov/READYmoistcal.php)
and find that the air has 9.65 g/m3
100ft³= 2.831685m³
Total water content of the air needed to fill a Great White is.... 2.83 x 9.65 gm = 27.3 gm
Our end point is almost zero water. So, that means we need to condense or absorb about 27 ml water in the system to deliver really dry air.
Molecular sieve saturation curve has its knee at 30% RH. That corresponds to 20 gm H20/ 100 gm molecular sieve.
Without condensation and mechanical separation, one would use up just over 100 gm of molecular sieve / full fill of a GW.
We can assume some condensation separation in the 1st stage compressor's tank. So, the total water mass is a bit less than that. Let's guess 1/2 is removed there. You can confirm by reporting that water is drained from your main compressor tank.
That leaves your interstage filter needing to soak up just half as much water. I would change the interstage molecular sieve 50 gm/ fill of the GW. That would present the lowest load to the more pricey cartridge in the JB high pressure filter.
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Yeah. The formal testing labs are pricey. You're talking $200+ to have one sample analyzed.
Dive shops have to do it, but that is too expensive for us air gunners.
However, there ARE some reasonably priced (<$100), visual, high pressure, humidity indicators that will let one check moisture level coming out of a Shoebox or other high pressure compressor.
Some dive compressor owners who want absolute certainty that their output is dry use them. These change color if humidity goes up and have a clear window built to withstand 6000 PSI pressure.
Because they work on the HIGH side output, they indicate what is actually coming out of the system and warn you before you put excess water vapor into your tank.
www.augustindustries.com/visual-indicator-ind-mois.asp (http://www.augustindustries.com/visual-indicator-ind-mois.asp) $60
www.augustindustries.com/moisture-indicator-disk-kit-mois.asp (http://www.augustindustries.com/moisture-indicator-disk-kit-mois.asp) $11
Cool! looks like I'm allowed to post actual links now. ;D
Guy,
I had debated on whether or not to add this to my Bauer Jr, just wondering if you did? If you did add it, where inline did you install it at?
Thanks
Charles
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Ken,
That's a nice clean setup! I like it. I'm afraid my setup will be a nightmare! lol
Taso
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I never did end up adding one on my Bauer Jr. It already has a grade E air rated system and I'm going to replace the cartridge earlier rather than later.
It still tempts me as a backup to warn if my P21 filter is getting spent before rated life.
It would fit on the fill whip, just before after the hose and before the gauge and valves. Would need a few fittings. That's why I'm referring to it as $100. That's with some fittings.
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I never did end up adding one on my Bauer Jr. It already has a grade E air rated system and I'm going to replace the cartridge earlier rather than later.
It still tempts me as a backup to warn if my P21 filter is getting spent before rated life.
It would fit on the fill whip, just before after the hose and before the gauge and valves. Would need a few fittings. That's why I'm referring to it as $100. That's with some fittings.
Basically my thoughts also. After mine was serviced at the Bauer Service Center (thanks FedEx), I was told by their Service Manager that keeping an eye on the filter cartridge was the main thing. They replaced all the filters and changed the oil after a through inspection gave it a "good to go". So all I have done is use it when needed. Unless I start seeing more evidence of excessive moisture, probably not going to install one.
Charles
Sorry for hijacking the thread.
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This link may help with filter life (towards the bottom).
w w w .scubaengineer.com/high_pressure_compressor_filtrat.htm
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Yes, read that WHOLE article. Combine that with what you learn from http://www.neptunoworld.com/articles/compressors.html (http://www.neptunoworld.com/articles/compressors.html)
and you will understand things a lot better than most people trying to fill their airguns.
The trick is applying those already known principles for diving compressors to letting little Shoebox do those functions with its more limited components.
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More about the visual moisture indicators. This time on the Scuba forum. There is mention of discs down to 10% and regenerating with a hair dryer.
https://www.scubaboard.com/community/threads/moisture-visual-indicator-and-relative-humidity-versus-dew-point.539480/ (https://www.scubaboard.com/community/threads/moisture-visual-indicator-and-relative-humidity-versus-dew-point.539480/)
Awe, heck. I just ordered one of the indicators for myself. Went with the 20/40/60 indicator and added a male/male nipple to make the connection.
Needed to order more Bauer oil anyways after doing the Carette 4500 compressor test & tear down. http://www.talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=35990 (http://www.talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=35990)
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Update:
The membrane drier showed up today. Pic is attached.
Taso
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Nice setup. The little intermediate dryers + final drying with the JB unit.
Let's figure out how much water needs to be removed to fill an entire Great White (100 cubic feet, uncompressed)
Assuming 22C (72F) and 50% RH in your work room. Use
and find that the air has 9.65 g/m3
100ft³= 2.831685m³
Total water content of the air needed to fill a Great White is.... 2.83 x 9.65 gm = 27.3 gm
Our end point is almost zero water. So, that means we need to condense or absorb about 27 ml water in the system to deliver really dry air.
Molecular sieve saturation curve has its knee at 30% RH. That corresponds to 20 gm H20/ 100 gm molecular sieve.
Without condensation and mechanical separation, one would use up just over 100 gm of molecular sieve / full fill of a GW.
We can assume some condensation separation in the 1st stage compressor's tank. So, the total water mass is a bit less than that. Let's guess 1/2 is removed there. You can confirm by reporting that water is drained from your main compressor tank.
That leaves your interstage filter needing to soak up just half as much water. I would change the interstage molecular sieve 50 gm/ fill of the GW. That would present the lowest load to the more pricey cartridge in the JB high pressure filter.
Thanks for all the info. I never think about how much moisture I'm removing. I'm just a little OCD so if I can buy things to help I will...
Funny also the shoebox was messing up before that picture it would make it to 3k and no more. I ended up having to rebuild it for the first time and runs like a champ again. I also installed the auto lube kit while I had it all apart and replaced the pistons.
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Hi All,
Sorry for no updates lately. The SMC filters are taking their sweet time it seems. ::)
I also need to make a cga 347 to female foster adapter so that I can fill my tank. North Shore Compressor is out of the stainless steel hand tight fitting I want. I think I'm also going to make an inline bleeder valve "extension".
Also one of those 6000 psi moisture detectors. ;D
Thanks,
Taso
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Following your progress with interest. So much of my fun in air gunning is in fuxing and tinkering.
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Hi All,
Just a small update. I am still waiting on the first filter I ordered. :( It is the micro filter to protect the membrane drier so it doesn't get clogged and fail.
Also I ordered the wrong modular clamps for the SMC filters so they become like one unit. I ordered the ones that had the integrated brackets trying to kill 2 birds with one stone. Those brackets interfere with the filter housings and can't be tightened down all the way. D'oh!!!
So I ordered the correct modular fittings and separate brackets, I think. ;D
I've attached a picture on how I think the components should be connected together. Please let me know what you think or have better suggestions.
I am not sure if I should feed the aftercooler and desiccant chamber from the bottom and output at the top. I'm also thinking to slope the aftercooler so that standing water will drain.
The membrane drier instructions say to use a regulator downstream. I'm not sure if I should place it at the end of the line as pictured or before the desiccant chamber?
I am also going to mount two shutoff valves so that at the input and exits so that no moisture from the atmosphere can get into the system and needlessly saturate the desiccant when the Shoebox is not in use.
Everything is coming along slowly at least.
Thank you!
Taso
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Hi All,
I finally got the micro mist filter to protect the air drier today! ;D So that means this weekend I can start putting it all together. I'm pretty sure I'm going to use flexible copper and compression fittings for interconnects.
Can anyone comment on the best flow configuration for the aftercooler and desiccant unit? I fell I should input at the bottom and output at the top.
Should I put the last regulator before or after the desiccant unit?
Thank you all for your help!
Taso
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I have not read all the post in this thread yet but will be as time permits.
One thing I do to try to prevent or slow corrosion as much as possible in my PCPs from ever occurring is every 4 or 5 fills of my guns reservoir I will put some silicone oil in the small pocket of the foster fitting on the gun before I connect my fill hose so that the oil gets forced into the reservoir and thereby coating the inside of the reservoir with a film of silicone oil to act as a barrier between the metal and any moisture that may be present in the reservoir. I have yet to see any corrosion in my guns and there is always a film of oil on the interior surfaces of the reservoirs when they are torn down to service or change tunes.
I also use white lithium grease to lube the piston rods on my shoebox instead of silicone oil since silicone oil is not meant to be used as a lubricant on metal. The manual I got with my shoebox (built 10/14 ) stated to use white lithium grease on the piston rods every 2 hours of operation. So I clean all old grease off the rods and relube after 2 hours of operation and have had no issue after 2 1/2 years of use from the seals or piston rods. I have also seen that there is a very light film of lithium grease that coats the inside workings of my shoebox to help keep corrosion at bay inside of it.
I have a separator between the first stage compressor and the shoebox which is after the 33 gallon tank I have the feed from the first stage compressor going into to allow the air to cool as well as the moisture to fall out of the air to the bottom of the tank so it can be removed with the drain on the bottom of the 33 gallon tank. I pull the air from the top of the 33 gallon tank fed thru the separator and into the shoebox. My first stage compressor is a 5 gallon 1/2 horse oilless compressor that I run to build full pressure first and then let sit for 15 minutes to cool the air in the big holding tank before I start the shoebox so the first stage compressor only runs for 10 minutes every hour of the shoebox operation. I also only run the shoebox in 20 minute intervals with 10 minute cool times to keep it cool and never see temps on the cylinder heads of the shoebox above 110F.
It has worked well for me so far so see no need to change anything in my fill procedures at this time.
Mike
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FWIW: The shoebox pistons ride on O-rings, not metal. Silicone should be fine, just like in a manual pump. Use the lithium on the part of the piston that goes through the guide.
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I understand the pistons ride in o rings inside the cylinders versus the bushing in the support block that the free ends of the pistons ride in and yes lithium would be better there but it would be difficult to keep the two from mixing to some extent in use. So I am just going by the recommendations in the manual I got with my shoebox. I have had no issues with using the lithium grease yet in 2 1/2 years so it is doing the job of lubing the bushing and o rings very well.
I prefer the lithium because it does not drip or get slung off like the silicone may as I cannot say from experience with silicone as I have never used it.
If it works for you then I say use what you are comfortable with and for me its lithium grease.
Mike
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Mike,
You would only use silicone if you had a recent shoebox that came with the automatic oiler or you bought the kit and added it.
http://www.shoeboxcompressor.com/worlds-smallest-lightest-4500-psi-compressor (http://www.shoeboxcompressor.com/worlds-smallest-lightest-4500-psi-compressor)
http://www.shoeboxcompressor.com/order/maintenance-kits/auto-lube-upgrade-kit.html (http://www.shoeboxcompressor.com/order/maintenance-kits/auto-lube-upgrade-kit.html)
It is a felt wick that keeps a thin film of oil on the pistons. The oil is rather thick for silicone, 1000 cps.
Just to be clear, if you do not have the automatic oilers, I do not recommend using silicone over the recommended lithium. If you want to use lithium with a unit with auto oiler, you need to remove the felt, so it doesn't wipe it off. I believe the OP has the auto oiler option installed.
With either lube, I suspect the o-ring further to left will be the ones that go first. The lube gets wiped off by the other to some extent.
Anyway, not meaning to start any "lube" war. ;)
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John you are 100% correct and I believe Tom at Shoebox would not have come out with the automatic silicone oiler if he did not think it was better.
I added the automatic oil kit to my shoebox and they seemed to work fine. The felt pads seemed to retain silicone for a very very long time even with all the shooting I was doing while I owned Discos R Us. I seldom had to add any silicon even when I was checking them. On the average I was topping off my two 60 minute carbon fiber tanks from 3000 - 4500 PSI once and sometimes twice a week. So as you can see the automatic felt pad kit got some good testing.
Norm
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Hi All,
So I had some time to search for brass and copper interconnects at Menards on Saturday. I am sad to report I had a hard time finding fittings the way they had them laid out. I'm going to try Home Depot and Lowe's too.
I think I am going to input the air into the aftercooler from the top and out the bottom. But I will feed the desiccant canister from the bottom and have it flow out the top.
I would like to make the desiccant canister easily removable to service but I also want it to seal when not in use so it doesn't absorb moisture from ambient air.
I found these quick connects that may solve both issues. This is just an example:
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=84876&catid=940 (http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=84876&catid=940)
I've never used them and I don't know how durable they are. I thought about just using shop hose female disconnects but they seemed overkill. I even thought about installing check valves in advantageous spots.
Should I maybe use plastic tubing for interconnecting components for it's flexibility versus copper tubing? I've sweated copper pipe and glued pvc together but I've never really messed with flexible plastic or copper tubing. If I left the aftercooler level versus tilted to promote condensate drainage I could get away without the copper tubing.
I catch myself over thinking and have to take a step back to reality. I guess I could make changes later but I want it all done at once. So that means thinking it all through.
The only hesitation that I have is that the air drier has a designed in leak to constantly discharge the filtered moisture. The other thing is that my desiccant canister has a max working pressure limit of 90 psi. The Shoebox works with between 85 and 100 psi.
I have two regulators. The first one will be installed at the input of my setup. I will adjust it so that I have 90 psi at the inlet of the desiccant canister. I don't know what pressure to set the water drier's required downstream regulator. Should I also set that at 90 or at 85 so that there is some back pressure? I haven't found an answer to this yet.
I guess that's all my brain can handle for tonight. Hopefully I have an update from HD or Lowe's tomorrow.
Thank you!
Taso
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While different that yours, I've run the desiccant filters slightly above rating without issue. With a Max running on a pressure switch, you do not have to maintain 85 psi input. I run mine between 90-95 psi, and get quicker fill times. Any higher than that and AC motor gets very hot. You can also run it with lower input psi, but fill times will be a bit longer. If you were using the "Knocker" pressure switch, the lower pressure would over pressure the vessel before shut-off.
My lines are all flexible, but didn't have to make my own. I do have input and output connectors. When finished, I unplug from compressors and plug them together to minimize air infiltration. Those 1/4" NPT male and female connectors are not expensive. But, if you go hard lines, the shut offs are probably the way to go.
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John,
LOL sometimes the best solutions elude me! My filter setup will be a good 30 feat away from the shop compressor. I will interconnect with a 50 foot braided hose. I will use a 12 foot coiled hose from the filter output to the Shoebox.
You are right, I could connect the coiled hose to the input side of the filter. Thank you! Should the Shoebox input and output be sealed off when not in use? I could probably make two deadheads for that.
Thanks,
Taso
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Should the Shoebox input and output be sealed off when not in use? I could probably make two deadheads for that.
Thanks,
Taso
I run mine for about 10 minutes after filling on ambient air to get out any moisture, and recently starting adding a few drops of silicone to the input, before shutting down. I close both the input and output with auto vacuum caps. You get a selection of colors and sizes for a few dollars.
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Mike,
You would only use silicone if you had a recent shoebox that came with the automatic oiler or you bought the kit and added it.
http://www.shoeboxcompressor.com/worlds-smallest-lightest-4500-psi-compressor (http://www.shoeboxcompressor.com/worlds-smallest-lightest-4500-psi-compressor)
http://www.shoeboxcompressor.com/order/maintenance-kits/auto-lube-upgrade-kit.html (http://www.shoeboxcompressor.com/order/maintenance-kits/auto-lube-upgrade-kit.html)
It is a felt wick that keeps a thin film of oil on the pistons. The oil is rather thick for silicone, 1000 cps.
Just to be clear, if you do not have the automatic oilers, I do not recommend using silicone over the recommended lithium. If you want to use lithium with a unit with auto oiler, you need to remove the felt, so it doesn't wipe it off. I believe the OP has the auto oiler option installed.
With either lube, I suspect the o-ring further to left will be the ones that go first. The lube gets wiped off by the other to some extent.
Anyway, not meaning to start any "lube" war. ;)
John
No lube wars started here but rather just stating how I perform maintenance and lube on my shoebox as another method and view on what has worked well for me for 2 1/2 years now with me filling two 30 minute SCBA aluminum tanks to 2500, one 80 CF scuba tank to 3500, one 45 minute SCBA to 4500 and one 90ci to 4500 so I fill at least one to two tanks every week. I do try to fill on the days that show the lowest dew point and humidity but here in the south that is not many days out of a year and mainly in the winter. Our summers are most always over 75% humidity and dew points of 60 plus as a norm.
I know I can convert to the oil wicks but in all honesty I see no real need at this time since I have yet to rebuild mine for the first time. It is a belt drive with a fan and hardened rods and I run with the cover off with another fan blowing across the cylinder heads and monitor the cylinder temps after every 20 minute run cycle. The hottest I have seen them get in 100 degree summer heat is 125 degrees and am capable of resting my fingers on the cylinders without burning them. Granted I am a auto mechanic so my fingers are heavily calloused and more leather than skin. ;D 8)
I have some 50 weight silicone oil from my RC car days that I use to lube the internals of my PCPs at every 5th fill by filling the cavity of the foster fill nipple before refilling from the tank or shoebox to keep any corrosion at bay in them. It also help lube the barrel versus lubing the pellets for smooth shooting without heavy lead fouling in the barrels.
I do disconnect my first stage compressor from the shoebox inlet after every fill and plug all open hose ends with the plastic hole plugs that are used on auto parts to keep out dirt and moisture. My shoebox has a film of lithium grease throughout the inside cavities from my lubing of the rods since if I forget and leave my first stage hose on the shoebox inlet it will slowly purge some of the grease out the outlet nipple. I also run mine at 90 psi on the first stage as well.
Mike
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Mike, No arguing with proven success. :)
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Gentlemen,
On a side note, has anyone tried the Krytox lubricants?
Thanks,
Taso
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Gentlemen,
On a side note, has anyone tried the Krytox lubricants?
Thanks,
Taso
If you are referring to that "high end" silicone type grease, I have some, but only use it sparingly, in regulators, and such. Have not used it on the SB. That might get expensive.
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I was using it on the SB before going to the automatic felt oilers.
It seemed to work fine but I am not sure it was any better than the White Lithium Tom recommends
Norm
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I couldn't find what I wanted at the home improvement stores so I ordered from Amazon. Instead of copper tubing with compression fittings to make the aftercooler pitch I went with 2 45 degree brass elbows.
I found paintball quick disconnects much cheaper than the quick disconnect I pictured a couple days ago so I went with those.
What thread sealant is recommended? I have Vibratite 444 that I used for my high pressure fittings. I'd rather use that before it ruins. I don't know the shelf life but I bought it about two months ago.
Hopefully I can get all this assembled and have a test run this weekend.
I am eager to see if all this time and effort will have good results. I hope so! ;D
Thanks,
Taso
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John
Agreed that if it works for us then no need to change the method we use.
Taso
I have never used any Krytox but have thought about trying some in my spring guns. I use divers silicone grease and RC car silicone oil for shocks ( 50 to 100 weights ) to lube the HPA parts and in the PCPs for o rings and to coat the internals of the guns.
For thread sealant I use good old fashioned white Teflon pipe tape. I have used some Harley Teflon pipe dope ( liquid in a small tube ) on fittings as well with good results. I only use it on joints that are not handled regularly since it does not dry to a hard surface so it will come off in your hands on the part of the fitting that is exposed.
I cannot say what the shelf life of Vibratite 444 is since I have never used it. I stick with Loctite products since have used them for years in the auto industry with great success. Just need to use the correct product for the intended purpose and most of my use in air guns is the Blue medium and Purple low strength Loctite's with the red high strength on parts that will seldom if ever need to be removed.
Mike
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Hi All,
So I got all my fittings and gauges in and mocked up how I'm going to lay everything out. I also mad the system semi detachable to service the filters and change media in the drier. There are 3 changes I'd like to make from the attached pictures. I'd like to put 90 degree elbows on the intake from the shop compressor and the output to the Shoebox. Also I think the shutoff valve may be more beneficial after the output regulator.
I finally found and ordered 800 grams of indicating molecular sieve to replace the silica gel in the column drier.
I think I'm just going to mount everything to a 2' x 4' sheet of 3/4" plywood and just hang it from a wall. So this should all be completed this weekend and I can start testing the systems effectiveness. I hope it was all worth it. ;D
Taso
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Getting closer!..... :) Given your arrangement, plywood mounting does seem like the way to go.
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John,
Thank you. Unfortunately I was involved in a car accident Wednesday morning so there may be some delays to my project. :-\
I am ok except for a crushed heel bone, torn ligaments in my knee and I think there was something wrong with my knee cap. All on the right side. I need to make an appointment with the orthopedic doctor around the 20th to see what my options are. I am hoping I won't need surgery.
Taso
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Unfortunately I was involved in a car accident Wednesday morning so there may be some delays to my project. :-\
I am ok except for a crushed heel bone, torn ligaments in my knee and I think there was something wrong with my knee cap. All on the right side. I need to make an appointment with the orthopedic doctor around the 20th to see what my options are. I am hoping I won't need surgery.
Taso
Oh man, that sounds painful. :( Wishing you a speedy recovery.
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Thank you! Norco is doing it's job about the pain but makes me drowsy and messes with my balance.
Taso
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Taso
Sorry to hear about the accident and you having injuries to you right leg and foot. I hope it does not need surgery or other serious procedures to get it you in good shape. :'(
I know how the pain pills affect the senses as well so hopefully you will heal quickly and can not have to take them for very long.
Best wishes for a speedy recovery.
Mike
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Mike,
Thank you! I also hope I won't need surgery. But if I have to then I have to. My cousin was just telling me that there would be high probability with knee. Once I the orthopedic doctor sees me I'll know for sure.
Taso
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I hope for the best for you and keep us informed
Mike
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Taso,
Just learned of your accident. So sorry. Hoping for a full and speedy recovery for you.
Terry
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Terry,
Thank you. :-) I know I will be all right but the thought of not being able to drive and be mobile stinks.
Last August I decided to venture out on my own into the I.T . support field. I am lucky that I have enough customers to be busy and finally have some financial comfort in that I am making a fair living.
Granted, the majority of my support requests can be completed via remote access the remainder I will have to find a solution for.
I know I may be borrowing worry but I always like to cover all my bases.
Don't get me wrong, being stuck at home all day will give me more time to play with bb guns but in good conscience I can't do that as I'm not wired that way. I have commitments to my customers that I need to keep.
I hope that all makes sense.
Thanks,
Taso
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Terry,
Thank you. :-) I know I will be all right but the thought of not being able to drive and be mobile stinks.
Last August I decided to venture out on my own into the I.T . support field. I am lucky that I have enough customers to be busy and finally have some financial comfort in that I am making a fair living.
Granted, the majority of my support requests can be completed via remote access the remainder I will have to find a solution for.
I know I may be borrowing worry but I always like to cover all my bases.
Don't get me wrong, being stuck at home all day will give me more time to play with bb guns but in good conscience I can't do that as I'm not wired that way. I have commitments to my customers that I need to keep.
I hope that all makes sense.
Thanks,
Taso
Sounds familiar and makes perfect sense.
I've been following here as I have an Altaros in transit. Should have it in a couple of days. I'm going with a much less elaborate setup...at least to start. I have a Sharpe 8130/F88 filter in my system now. Filter is 35 feet from the compressor (240v/2 stage/5hp/80gal). I'm adding a DeVilbiss 130525 QC3 exclusively for the Altaros. Hoping for the best from there. Guess we will soon see.
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Terry,
Yes, I nerded out a "little" with my filtration setup but I do enjoy researching, planning out and configuring the system.
I was very interested in the Altaros compressor when they were first announced as I am a frugal kinda guy and don't like wasting money. I don't have a problem spending more money it if I can get a performance benefit.
So I followed a couple threads on the Altaros and found that it was virtually maintenance free and that my current compressor would struggle to support it. So I went back to the Shoebox. It has a low cfm requirement so my Sears compressor would be adequate.
The Shoebox I ended up buying had silica gel an calcium sulfate as drier media. Since I knew nothing about drying air before buying the Shoebox I started researching.
Silica gel an calcium sulfate have low capacities and needed to be regenerated frequently.
I had read about refrigerated driers so I researched those. They only removed water vapor to a ~40 degree fahrenheit dew point, were expensive and required more money to operate.
Then I found the membrane air driers. They block the flow of the water molecules. The units I found will bring the dew point down to -20 degrees celsius. Then I figured since I had the media cylinder I'd use it with the best drier medium which is molecular sieve which will give a dew point of -100 degrees.
The membrane dryer will be doing the majority of the water vapor removal.
I don't think I really need the aftercooler but it was only $37. Since I started from just a compressor I had to get regulators, gauges and the other particle filters.
The membrane drier requires the micro mist separator as any oil will reduce the life of the membrane drier. I bought the other upstream filters to increase the down stream filter media life.
Is this the optimal setup? I doubt it as this is my first setup. Testing will tell us if it has the required results.
I figured I'd try and see how much moisture I could remove with just low pressure filtration.
Thanks,
Taso
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Taso
Could you post a link or info on the membrane filter you bought for your system as I must have missed it and would like to see if it helps with my setup on the low pressure side. I am in the process of researching a high side molecular sieve setup as well but would like to remove as much moisture before the shoebox as possible as well like you have done.
Mike
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Mike,
Here's a link to the product configuration page:
http://www.smcusa.com/products/IDG-Membrane-Air-Dryer-Series~127954 (http://www.smcusa.com/products/IDG-Membrane-Air-Dryer-Series~127954)
There are different flow capacities and inlet pipe options.
The majority of the models are a housing with a replaceable filter element. The one I got is all in one, the filter element is not changeable.
There are also links to more information. I just did a quick check on ebay and there are 2 used units for less than $70. I don't know the sellers or the condition so those are questions that would need to be asked. There is also a harmful substance list that needs to be checked as the filter element can be damaged.
Thanks,
Taso
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Taso
Thanks for the link and I checked them out but really have no clue as to which one I would need but searched for the IDG1-N02-P part number model that showed to be in the 200 dollar range.
I cannot afford that much at this time for a low side dryer. So is that around the cost for the one you are using. I have gotten and been using a high side molecular sieve from china that is doing very good at capturing the moisture before it gets to my tanks or guns. I see no moisture vapor at all when bleeding the air at the tanks but do see moisture if I bleed at the shoebox bleed off port. Here is a link to the sieve for 69 bucks shipped.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/This-is-a-gift-free-of-mechanical-parts-the-link-is-used-for-customers-pay-the/32602913439.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/This-is-a-gift-free-of-mechanical-parts-the-link-is-used-for-customers-pay-the/32602913439.html)
I bought some 13x sieve medium off eBay for 22 bucks that is doing very well. The sieve comes with a paper style water trap material so I cut it into about 2 inch lengths and got a thin flexible plastic type of cutting board that's about 1/32" thick and cut it so it could be rolled into a tube the length of the sieve less the threaded portion. I rolled it up to fit in the sieve and taped it so it was a good fit to the inside ID of the sieve. Then I put one of the paper traps I cut onto one end of the rolled up plastic tube and filled the tube with the medium until it left enough room to install the other cut piece of paper trap into the opposite end of the rolled up tube. Then slide that into the sieves aluminum housing and screwed on the caps. The idea is you do not want the 13x medium to make contact with the aluminum since once it is collecting moisture it will start a corrosive reaction with the metal so the plastic cutting board material prevents direct contact with the aluminum so no corrosion can develop. Here is a link to the 13x medium I bought off eBay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/252222241108 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/252222241108)
Mike
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Mike,
I got lucky. I found mine used on ebay for $88 shipped. I can't see any signs it was installed or used so it looked like opened package NOS. I would have preferred the housing models but they were more at the time.
As for sizing I started at flow rate. I read that the Shoebox Maxx only uses .2 cfm. My IDG1 is rated for 10 liters per minute. So 10 liters per minute = 0.353146667 cubic feet per minute. So I'm using ~57% capacity. I have attached a pic of the flow rates for the different models.
There are two IDG5's on ebay right now between $70 and $80. They flow 50 lpm or 1.7657 cfm. Plenty for a Shoebox compressor.
I bought this indicating molecular sieve from Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00C9GIGW2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00C9GIGW2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
It's 800 grams for $35. I think my cylinder has a 500 gram capacity so I may have some left over.
Taso
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I forgot to add. The IDG models 1 through 20 are rated up to 123 psi (.85 mpa)
Taso
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Taso
I will check out the ones on eBay since thats a better price that I can accept for the filters.
The molecular sieve I got off eBay was 3 LBs so I only used about 1/4 LB of it in my sieve and will just change it out as needed. It has some indicating medium mixed in so I should be able to tell when it needs heated to remove the moisture. The reason I went with 13X size versus the 4A you are using is the 13X is designed to trap H2O specifically and can hold almost three times as much moisture as the 4A medium from the research I did on the different make ups of medium that are available. The 13X is also designed to be used in high pressure application so it is better suited for use in the high side of the setups.
I can tell that it is absorbing the moisture completely since I see no vapor when bleeding off the pressure after the sieve. The only drawback to using it on the high side that I see so far is it takes about 10 minutes for the shoebox to pressurize the lines and sieve to 3000 psi before it actually starts to fill a tank or gun. I have bought a on/off valve to put after the sieve so I can shut the valve and trap the pressure in the sieve between changing tanks or gun so I only have to pressurize the sieve once per filling sessions.
Mike
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Thanks Mike. I was confused on the "a" sizing. Hopefully the 4a I bought will work well enough. I knew 3a was smaller than a water molecule so 13a should trap almost everything?
I think you'll get better moisture absorption if you keep the sieve filter valve closed and let the system build up pressure. The sieve media works better at higher pressure.
Thanks,
Taso
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Mike,
I forgot to add. There's a member on here, guykuo, that knows a whole lot about drying air. Maybe if you search through his posts he may mention super high pressure filter optimization.
I'm trying to see what can be removed on the low pressure side. ;D
Taso
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Taso
Yea I do exactly that and do not open the fill valve on the tanks before the sieve is at 3000 psi or above and fill a gun from the tanks now but since I just got the on/off valve today I can just shut the valve to trap the pressure in the sieve to fill a gun if needed in between tank filling.
My thoughts were the same with respect to the sizing of the sieve medium and the 13X I got is roughly a 1/16" in diameter round balls that are beige and light blue colors mixed together. It is previously used medium that was professionally dried and packaged in foil packs of 3 LBs for resale so that's why it was a bit cheaper I guess. I have the remainder in two canning jars with the vacuum seal lids so it is air tight for future use.
I hope the 4A medium you got does work well enough at removing the water from the air on the low side but I am afraid you will still find some water vapor when bleeding off the high pressure with out any high side sieve in the line. I would be interested in knowing what you find after filling a few tanks.
I have seen the post by guykuo here as well but most of what he says goes right over my head as far as the dew points and humidity are concerned other than I do know that the lower the dew point and humidity the better. I just judge the best performance by the amount of water vapor I see at bleed off after running the shoebox for several hours filling tanks. So far the high side sieve has given the best results with no water vapor seen at bleed off.
Mike
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Man, I would save the money from buying all that stuff and buy another air rifle. ;D
I have a very early Shoebox, zero upgrades. I live in the always humid southeast. I have a little water separator at the inlet of my Shoebox, and haven't seen a drop of water in it in 5 years of use. I think the air moves slow enough through my 6 foot hose that it condenses in the hose and runs back to the compressor.
And for the Shoebox outlet at 4500psi, I just open the bleed while it's running once an hour, or every half hour. There is always a puff of condensation that comes out.
That being said, I've never seen any moisture at the end of my 30" whip hose coming out of the Shoebox. So I never could justify the cost and hassle of adding anything else.
All of my PCP airtubes have been apart for reseals or work over the years, and I've never seen any corrosion in the tubes.
If I were you, before I spent all the extra money on filters, driers, and all that, I would just hook the thing up and see how much moisture you get from the end of the line. You may decide you don't need any of it....
Just my opinion, and what works for me. ;)
I like this reply. I think people are getting a bit too anal on this water issue.
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Rajod,
My concern is mostly of water sitting in my carbon fiber bottle. This is where water will accumulate. Water in contact with metal will cause corrosion. Yes, there is a chance that it will get trapped in my fill whip from the Shoebox and not make it into the bottle. But since scba bottle valves have a built in tube to keep water out of the firefighters breathing equipment water is not easily removed. It would be cool to remove the tube so that you can turn a bottle upside down, crack the valve open, and get rid of this water. The scba bottle water trap will also keep water droplets out of your guns. What will happen though is that your 4500 psi air still has water vapor in it.
What I haven't found a hard answer on is at what percent humidity will corrosion start. And I mean water vapor, not visual droplets.
Mr. Sterne's post on the Shoebox forum gave me a lot to think about:
http://forum.shoeboxcompressor.com/forum/showthread.php?268-How-does-the-air-from-a-Shoebox-compared-to-a-hand-pump-for-moisture-content (http://forum.shoeboxcompressor.com/forum/showthread.php?268-How-does-the-air-from-a-Shoebox-compared-to-a-hand-pump-for-moisture-content)
Taso
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Rajod,
My concern is mostly of water sitting in my carbon fiber bottle. This is where water will accumulate. Water in contact with metal will cause corrosion. Yes, there is a chance that it will get trapped in my fill whip from the Shoebox and not make it into the bottle. But since scba bottle valves have a built in tube to keep water out of the firefighters breathing equipment water is not easily removed. It would be cool to remove the tube so that you can turn a bottle upside down, crack the valve open, and get rid of this water. The scba bottle water trap will also keep water droplets out of your guns. What will happen though is that your 4500 psi air still has water vapor in it.
What I haven't found a hard answer on is at what percent humidity will corrosion start. And I mean water vapor, not visual droplets.
Mr. Sterne's post on the Shoebox forum gave me a lot to think about:
http://forum.shoeboxcompressor.com/forum/showthread.php?268-How-does-the-air-from-a-Shoebox-compared-to-a-hand-pump-for-moisture-content (http://forum.shoeboxcompressor.com/forum/showthread.php?268-How-does-the-air-from-a-Shoebox-compared-to-a-hand-pump-for-moisture-content)
Taso
Taso
I use a setup similar to what ScottC has in the link you posted for the Shoebox forum. I have a first stage compressor that is a 5 gallon 1/2 HP that I have plumbed into a 33 gallon tank used as a storage tank for the moisture to condense out of the air before it gest to the shoebox. The only difference is my first stage compressor can only develop 125 PSI but I let it sit after filling the storage tank before starting the shoebox and there is a drier before the shoebox with some of the 13X sieve medium in it to catch any moisture that is pulled out of the 33 gallon tank. I am drawing the air out of the 33 gallon tank from the top of the tank so hopefully there is very minimal moisture in the air ( I have never seen the drier medium get discolored at all) . It takes about an hour of running of the shoebox before the compressor turns back on so I just follow the same method as Scoot does by letting the first stage air cool before turning the shoebox back on when filling the big tanks I have.
Then I have the molecular sieve after the shoebox to trap any moisture that is squeezed out of the air by the shoebox compressing it to 3K-4.5K.
So far it has worked well but my only complaint is the time it takes to fill my 66 CF SCBA and 80 CF SCUBA tanks, it fills my 90 CI buddy tank in about an hour and half depending on how close to 3K it is at the start of filling.
I think the added drying/filtering you have on your low side will work very well so just watch for water vapor when bleeding the pressure off to determine if you need any drier setup on the high side.
Mike
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Mike,
Thanks. The SMC drier is supposed to get me to a -4 degree F dewpoint. The molecular sieve should get down to -100 degree F dewpoint. I don't know offhand what that works out to in % humidity but it's got to be in single digits. I think that is good enough for our purpose.
The SMC drier will do the heavy lifting so that the molecular sieve doesn't need to be recharged very often.
Taso
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I just remembered. -100 was for drierite. I'm not sure what the molecular sieve dewpoint is. But I know it has more absorption capacity.
Taso
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I know that I had just the drier in the low side up until two weeks ago I would get some water vapor when bleeding the pressure off at the tanks and is why I put the sieve in the high side and since it was installed I have seen no vapor at all when bleeding.
I know some of it had to make in into my tanks so they will be inspected at regular intervals to determine if any corrosion is taking place.
Mike
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Mike,
Now I understand. I didn't catch it last night and the norco's make me a little dense. Please accept my apologies.
Taso
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Taso
No apologies needed as I have been there with the pain and the pills to help function thru the pain. I hope you are mending well and get back to the groove soon.
Mike
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Mike,
Thank you. Monday I will see orthopedic doctor to go over scans and get a plan of action together. Hopefully I can dodge the surgery bullet.
I wen't back and read your post on the hpa filter you bought. You did good in isolating the sieve from the aluminum shell. Even though the capacity is smaller than the cylinder I have, yours should outperform my low pressure drier cylinder. The sieve works much better at hpa pressures.
You should have got the filter with the Star Trek transparent aluminum option so you can tell when it's time to recharge the media. ;)
Taso
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You should have got the filter with the Star Trek transparent aluminum option so you can tell when it's time to recharge the media. ;)
Taso
You got an interesting idea there. I wonder how thick the plexiglass would have to be to make a small round container to hold a desiccant in line on the high side for maybe 3500psi?? lol
On the other hand I don't guess they have finished deciphering that formula for the transparent aluminum yet or we would be able to buy it at home depot. ;D
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Allan,
Member Guykuo had posted a link earlier in this thread to a high side moisture detector. It looked like an aluminum cylinder with a round sight window. I'm sure that would be clear Plexiglas in there. I've never seen one in person but it could have easily been an inch thick.
Taso
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Mike,
Thank you. Monday I will see orthopedic doctor to go over scans and get a plan of action together. Hopefully I can dodge the surgery bullet.
I wen't back and read your post on the hpa filter you bought. You did good in isolating the sieve from the aluminum shell. Even though the capacity is smaller than the cylinder I have, yours should outperform my low pressure drier cylinder. The sieve works much better at hpa pressures.
You should have got the filter with the Star Trek transparent aluminum option so you can tell when it's time to recharge the media. ;)
Taso
Taso
I hope it all goes well at the doc and you can avoid surgery so your down time will be much less.
I went back and found the link that guykuo posted since I missed it the first read. I may get one in time depending on how fast the medium becomes saturated and plan to check it after a few filling sessions just to get a feel on how fast it becomes saturated. It would be nice to have a visual indicator that can be seen without opening the sieve up but its not difficult to unthread one cap and pull the paper filter out of the plastic tube to see if the medium is changed colors.
Thanks for pointing that out since I missed it but have it booked marked now for easy reference to order down the road.
Mike
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Hi All,
I apologize for no new updates to my project. Still not walking since heel surgery. In 5 1/2 weeks I should be able to put weight on it and learn how to walk again! ;D
I've never been laid up before and I will need physical therapy. I don't know how long that will take to get me back to normal.
But I promise, once back this project will be completed and hopefully have some real numbers to see effectiveness.
Thank you,
Taso
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Hey Taso
Sorry to hear your healing is going slower than expected and it seems to be taking longer than you would like it to. I have been in the same boat and therapy is usually 6 to 8 weeks with two to three times a week. It is a slow process indeed. Bones are very slow to heal and more so for weight bearing ones such as your heel bone.
No worries about the thread as we will be here when you can resume your posts.
Mike
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Thank you Mike. I was so close to actually filling a tank for the first time and I was anxious to see the results. The biggest find was the membrane moisture filter. I did pick up a second one for cheap, an IDG5 versus the first IDG1.
I think I'm going to use the tubular one as I originally planned and probably put the IDG5 up for sale.
We'll see. I may change my mind by then. ;)
I did find out that it is recommended to have a filter after the molecular sieve and media dust can get into Shoebox and create wear issues? I think .1 micron was recommended. I'll have to check my notes again and see what Ebay has used.
Thanks,
Taso
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Taso
I would wait on selling one of the filters till you see if what you have in the system works as planned. I most certainly would have a filter of some sorts before the shoebox to catch any sieve dust that may develop from use but hopefully it will be very minimal at best with none at all being excellent. I believe 1 micron would be very good for sure.
That's why I have my sieve particles between two paper type filters that came with mine so it traps any that may migrate into my tanks or guns since mine is on the high pressure side.
Mike
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Hi All,
I haven't done anything with this project lately besides a lot of reading and thinking. I am planning to add a Diablo filter vertically with a pressure maintaining valve on the output at the top. I will also be installing a pipe fitting trap and bleed to trap any liquid water from the high pressure side of the Shoebox right at the output. I think this will be good enough to keep any liquid water from going up the Diablo filter feed hose at the bottom.
I will install a tee on the output of my Shoebox where the current foster fitting is. The fitting trap will obviously point down and the output to the Diablo filter will point straight up. I will have to either raise the Shoebox or cut a hole through what my Shoebox will sit on for the trap to pass through. I hope that makes sense.
I have been looking but I haven't seen if there is a cartridge to hold the desiccant in the Diablo filter. It looks like it is the same outside diameter but longer than Joe B's Alpha filter. I have no idea if the internal diameter is the same. I guess I could make a couple cartridges to swap out and recharge in the oven without bringing down the Shoebox.
I was also curious if ball valves could be used on the high pressure side to keep moisture out when idle? I have a couple on the low pressure side. Another question is is it safe to leave the the system with 4500 psi till the next time I need it or is it just better to bleed down when done and then repressurize the system when a tank needs to be filled up? I can see the safety in relieving all the pressure when not in use but maybe some remaining pressure would be beneficial?
Also I was cleared yesterday to start physical therapy! Tomorrow I have the appointment to get evaluated and see what the course of action and timeline to walking and driving will be. ;D
Thank you,
Taso
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task it will be interesting to see how the Diablo filter works vertical, I thought that it was supposed to be mounted horizontal? Anyway I'll keep my eye on this thread.
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Hi All,
Just an update. I picked up a used Alpha filter from the classified that I will be adding to my Shoebox setup. Has anyone made or rebuilt the Alpha filter cartridge?
Also since I am thinking about building a water condensate trap before the Alpha filter do I need the void at the bottom of the alpha filter? I have been told that the void is necessary but I don't follow the reasoning. I was thinking of making a cartridge that will be full length filled with molecular sieve and eliminate the void. Has anyone rebuilt an Alpha cartridge? I have not attempted to see if it comes apart without destroying it.
I plan on installing the Alpha filter almost 2 feet higher than the Shoebox outlet. It will be connected to my condensate trap with a standard 6000 psi hose, not microbore. I don't know the internal diameter of the microbore hose but I think it will be too small to allow water droplets to drop freely via gravity due to surface tension and wicking effects. Also I think the drop size is big enough to block the hose so that passing air will always be in contact with the water. I'm just thinking out loud.
If anyone can see any flaws in my thinking please let me know. I'm still learning about all this hpa water filtering stuff. ;D
Thank you,
Taso
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Hi All,
I almost forgot. I did more reading on molecular sieve. 3a's pores are just a tad bigger than a water molecule so it will be the molecular sieve that will most exclusively target water plus molecules smaller than 3 angstroms. 4a will also work but trap other molecules up to 4 angstroms. 13x traps a lot more molecules besides water like oils, hydrocarbons, etc. Removing water from the media is easy with heat. I don't know how you would remove the oils, hydrocarbons, co2 etc from 13x.
The only problem is that I can not find indicating 3a sieve but I can find indicating 4a sieve. I guess you could intermix a small amount of indicating sieve with the non indicating and still estimate when the media has reached max water trapping capacity and needs to be regenerated. The only problem I see with that is that the 3a may absorb moisture at a different rate than the 4a. So if the 3a reaches capacity before the 4a changes color you will be passing moisture to your tanks.
I think I will stick with the 4a unless I find indicating 3a. ;D
Thanks,
Taso
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Taso
The only thing I can think of with the setup you are going to be using is that with the alpha mounted 2 feet above the shoebox is you need to have at least 8 to ten inches of the HPA line below the height of the shoebox so no water can backflow into the shoebox. Not sure it could flow back into the shoebox but if it can it could cause a hydraulic lock on the pistons and cause damage to the shoebox.
Not sure the ID of the HPA line will make much difference on the water being able to fall freely out of the air stream. Since the air being compressed to high pressures could possibly trap the water easier or not in the air.
Does your alpha filter have the one way check valve before the filter and the bleed off valve also. If so maybe the one way valve will prevent back flow of the water that is caught in the void of the filter. I believe that void is there for the purpose of allowing the heavy concentration of water that is caught by the filter medium to fall out of the medium and stay in the void to be drained off after filling is done.
Mike
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Taso
I think you may be incorrect in the different sieve mediums and their absorption rates or effectiveness of water. look at the chart in the link for % of H2o the sieve can hold in suspension. 3a and 4a are a little lower than 13x.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_sieve (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_sieve)
https://www.deltaadsorbents.com/SDS-Specs/Molecular-Sieve (https://www.deltaadsorbents.com/SDS-Specs/Molecular-Sieve)
Mike
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Mike,
Thanks for your response. I was trying to find a program to sketch out my layout but haven't found one yet so I drew it by hand. So please forgive me if it looks terrible lol ;D The fitting length from the Shoebox output to the tee is exaggerated. I drew it longer so that you could see the fittings clearly. It will realistically be an inch or two at the most.
I did envision a "drip leg" but I wasn't sure on length. I guess it depended on what stainless hpa fittings I can find.
Floyd had posted a thread recently about how much water comes out of our hpa compressors and with my membrane drier on the shoebox input I figured about 1/5 teaspoon. I think I found hpa nipples that were 4 inches long. I though that would be enough for one 30 minute scba tank fill. I could add a second one or find a longer section of hpa tubing.
I didn't think back flow could be possible with the air flow but I did want everything tilted to make gravity scavenge the condensate.
No, I don't have a check valve at the alpha input. There is a bleeder valve there that I plan on removing as I will have one at the bottom of my drip leg.
The way I'm thinking of the setup I can't see how liquid water will get up to the Alpha filter. It is possible some liquid water can condense with temperature but I figured the Alpha placement would help draw that condensate towards the drip leg.
Let me know what you think.
Thanks,
Taso
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Taso
I think you may be incorrect in the different sieve mediums and their absorption rates or effectiveness of water. look at the chart in the link for % of H2o the sieve can hold in suspension. 3a and 4a are a little lower than 13x.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_sieve (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_sieve)
https://www.deltaadsorbents.com/SDS-Specs/Molecular-Sieve (https://www.deltaadsorbents.com/SDS-Specs/Molecular-Sieve)
Mike
Mike,
I never said 3a and 4a hold more water than 13x but that they will target water more exclusively than 13x. But at most the 13x only holds 3% more water by weight.
I would also assume the 13x media weighs less than 4a media for the same mesh size as the 13x has bigger holes and thus less silicon dioxide. For example if they both held the same weight of moisture the percentage by weight for the lighter media (13x) would calculate higher. But in the end I think the 3% difference is not that important in the grand scheme of things.
13x will trap more molecules up to 10 angstrom like oils, co2, and many more. That is why it is more suited to making breathable air in scuba compressors. I'm not saying you can't use it and throw it away. I don't know how it can be regenerated?
I'm kind of frugal. I know 3a and 4a cannot be regenerated forever but water is easier to get out.
Taso
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Taso
I see your point now but from my research I don't see much difference between the types other than the 4A is used more in the food and drug industry than the others. I also believe the 13x can be regenerated the same as the others also or at least that what I have read somewhere just cant remember now where. It said to heat to 200 to 400 degrees for an hour to hour and a half.
I got 3 pounds of it so if I have to just throw it way its not a big deal since the 3 pounds will fill the filter 5 to 6 times if not more.
Agree the 3% difference is not enough to matter and really don't understand the angstrom value. When I bought the 13x I remember reading that it was used to absorb mainly water and not other chemicals but in the links I sent you it does state different from what I first read.
Mike
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Mike,
Using molecular sieve on the output side is better than not using anything. That is the most important thing. So we're both on the right track. ;D
When my extreme nerdiness kicks in I am basically just nitpicking so please don't mind me. lol I don't mean any offense. :)
I know heat will get the moisture out but I have no idea how to get the rest out. I think over time the non water molecules will continue to build up and eventually take over the space in the molecular sieve so that it will no longer absorb moisture or anything else for that matter. But I don't know that for sure as I'm new to all this.
Does my conceptual filter layout look ok? Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Taso
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Taso
No offense taken since I can get anal at times as well. I think all of the sieve mediums absorb some of all chemical molecules but some just work better with the different chemicals. I am with you on not truly knowing what all the heat will remove by evaporation versus being burned off from the heat.
My only real concern is stopping the water from migrating into my tanks and guns. When I see the water vapor I used to see when bleeding off the pressure in my tanks or guns I will know its time to change the sieve medium. So far since I have installed the high side filter there has been no vapor of any kind at bleed off so its doing something as compared to be before it.
As far as I can tell or know you are doing the right things with yours also. I do think the void in the alpha filters is there for a reason so myself would leave it there as long as you will have a bleed off valve before the filter to remove any water that does collect at the bottom of the filter. Also leave some of the HPA line below the shoebox so no water can run back into the shoebox.
Mike
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Hi All,
Just a small update to my project. I turned on the Shoebox compressor for the first time since I bought it to see how loud it is when it's running. Not very loud at all with the electronic pressure cutoff. It's as quiet or more quiet than my washing machine.
So I decided to set it up to run in the basement. I also ordered a California Air Tools 2050A compressor. It's .5 horsepower, 3.6 amp draw,2 gallon aluminum tank and only 56db. I also ordered more low pressure fittings as I am not going to install the radiator or the Drier-rite drier.
I also ordered the high pressure fittings from Northshore compressor and August Industries to build the water trap and plumb the Alpha filter.
I will take pictures and post them once everything is assembled. I am happy to get this all put together and start making some hpa finally!
Thank you All,
Taso
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Without the pressure switch, the max is very annoying once it is above 3kpsi. I use the CAT 4600S as the 1st stage, and the combo is very quiet. It sits 4' behind me while sitting at the desk. Without the pressure switch and with the HF pancake compressor I had to leave the room. I have desicant filters on the SB feed and a small gold filter on the HP side. Works well for my area and needs, with only 1 hour run times to fill 90ci or guppy tanks.
Anyway. glad to see you are progressing, and interested in how your final set-up comes out.
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Just another small update. My hpa fittings finally shipped today from August Industries. Two 1/4" couplers were on back order and finally came in. I also added the moisture monitoring housing and moisture indicating disk.
I will probably put it before the Alpha filter initially to see how effective my low side pre filtering is. I will then install it after the Alpha filter to indicate when the molecular sieve needs to be recharged.
Hopefully I will get all the pre filter system connected and mounted to a piece of plywood this weekend.
Taso
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I was able to put together the Alpha filter, humidity indicator and water trap.
One thing I noticed while tightening the fittings is the tee that comes out of the Shoebox turns slightly. I may need to rething the weight and leverage on that tee. The problem is though that there is also the pressure switch inside the Shoebox case that makes getting all the fittings to work together really difficult. Maybe I can install a foster fitting in the Shoebox vertical aluminum distribution block, like it came stock, and mount everything else including the pressure switch remotely.
I initially wanted to mount the Alpha filter on a semi flexible hose I have from the Ninja nitrogen setup I bought. But that is close to 18" long and raised the Alpha filter way too much to be usable. :-\
I'm still trying to layout the low pressure filters. One of the filter bowls has a leaking gasket that I need to find a replacement for. >:(
I've attached pictures of what I have so far.
Thanks,
Taso
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I'll post a pic tomorrow, but my temporary, very janky set up is:
compressor with a coil line going to a Harbor Freight water/oil separator for the low side, to the shoebox, to a chinese gold filter with molecular sieve and cotton filters for the high side, going to my tank. I'm still finishing my basement at the moment, hence the janky set up. so no judgement!! ;D I've got a plan for the permanent set up, which will include better power/air line management, and a cabinet for the air compressor, not like it really needs it- but it's what I have to work with.
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I finished the layout of the low pressure side. I don't know if I can make it any more compact. The input is the most center hose fitting. Then it loops around counter clockwise. I left the silica gel desiccant filter in for now just to see if it will do anything after the blue membrane drier in the top center.
Thanks,
Taso
EDIT: I forgot to add, nothing is screwed into the board and none of the fittings are tightened and threads are not sealed.
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FWIW: I don't remember how Norm ran the pressure switch, outside of it was different than what I did. I think his had the advantage of it fit under the cover, while mine did not require removing the block to tighten the fittings.
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Here are pictures of the plumbing under the cover. And a picture of the California Air Tools 1/2 horsepower compressor. While it is quiet, it's not as quiet as they advertise. I took measurements with my Radio Shack sound meter right next to it. I guess if they took the advertised reading 10 foot away it may be that quiet. ;)
You have to isolate the compressor vibrations from the surface you place it or else it will use the surface like a speaker cone. I quartered a Pyramyd Air pellet foam and placed the pieces under the feet. That stopped the counter from vibrating and brought the sound down almost 10 db. On the floor would be good too but I don't have the space in my laundry room.
I removed the CAT regulator since I have a couple in my loop already. The membrane drier is limited to 123 psi max and the plastic dessicant container is limited to 90 psi max. The rest of the system is rated to 145 psi. The CAT compressor only goes up to 125ish psi so I set the first regulator to 120 psi in case the compressor shut off switch and over pressure blow off malfunction.
Thanks,
Taso
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If you are bleeding the bottom of that tee after every fill cycle, you would not need all of that volume to trap condensed water. You could get rid of at least 2 couplings, if not all four. That long length just looks like an easy to hit lever arm to tweak that tee.
I see the shut-off before the filter, so assume you are keeping the filter pressurized when not in use. Is that brass fitting at the top of the filter a check valve that is set to a certain pressure? If so, I'd be interested in where you got it. Thx.
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Yea, that's allot of plumbing on those tees!
So I'm not the only one that has their fill station in the laundry room. ;)
I noticed some floor induced noise when I had the CAT out in the open floor, but when under the table, it is closer to a wall, and not bad at all. Magnitudes quieter than my HF pancake compressor. When I get around to it, I plan to try a rubber floor mat under the CAT. As it is, I can easily work at my desk with my back to the compressors, which are less than 4' away.
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Hi John! Yeah, I wasn't sure how much water I would be creating. Lloyd had posted a spreadsheet to calculate how much water would existed in pressurized air. I think I had calculated about a teaspoon with my setup.
I didn't know how wide the passages in the couplers and nipples would be so I figured I'd double up so I didn't have to pay for shipping again from August Industries. Plus those parts were cheap.
I'll see if I can dig up a before picture of the Shoebox. All I removed was the foster fitting and then added all the new stuff. Yeah the hanging trap is a limitation but I wanted it to be the lowest point to collect and liquid water from the compressor and the Alpha filter as it cools and gets squeezed out by the increasing pressure.
The gold fitting at the top of the Alpha filter is a pressure maintaining valve (PMV). It came with the Alpha. JB's document taped to the filter states that it is set at 2200 psi. I don't see a way to adjust it so it's safe to say it's a fixed pressure point. My understanding is that it performs three functions. First is to create dwell in the Alpha filter so that the molecular sieve has more time to absorb moisture. Second, molecular sieve works better at higher pressures. Third, the higher the pressure you get the air to the more humidity gets squeezed and condenses out as liquid water.
As for the laundry room, it's heated and I can test my setup inside on the counter space ;D . I'd rather it was not in the house for safety and will most likely move it to the garage in the spring once it's all set up the way I want it.
Thanks,
Taso
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I was looking for that type of fitting when I had the large "gold" HP filter. The SB Max just took too long to fill the filter, vs my 90ci and guppy tanks. I went with a much smaller "mini me" version of the "gold" filter. I have inspected the "mini me" after every fill, and have not seen any visible moisture, yet.
I suspect with your level of low side filtration, that you will not be anywhere near what you have calculated for condensation. All the plumbing will add up for your fill times, but easy to remove those couplings at any time in the future. Or leave it pressurized. If you bleed your tank, everything behind that PMV should stay at 2200psi. The SB check valve on the HP cylinder should seal it off, I would think.
If I thought it was unsafe, would move it out of the house. The burst disk in the SB and tanks, along with the pressure switch, and use of a timer that prevents over running it. My tanks are a couple years away from their first hydro, which I plan to have done even though I don't have them filled by others. I like the convenience and using the somewhat "conditioned" inside house air. It was 5 degrees outside this AM, not that much warmer in the garage. ;) While it makes less noise than the washing machine, I do only fill it when others are not around. Even with those protections, I monitor it closely during the fill cycle.
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The membrane drier brings the dew point down to -4 degrees Fahrenheit. So much below freezing which I wouldn't think humidity was possible. But I've read that moisture can basically float in the air in it's solid state. Very interesting! I thought it would solidify and fall to the ground due to it being heavier than air.
I probably don't need the silica gel canister. But since I had it I wanted to see if it would catch any moisture. If after a couple tank fills I don't see a color change I may remove it.
Like I said earlier I want to see what is necessary and what is overkill. I believe the membrane drier will be the best performer and everything else will remove some minute traces of moisture.
Just finished with the furnace tech. My furnace was hitting the high limit two minutes after the second stage kicked on. I was most likely using too restrictive air filters. I'm gonna run to Menards to get new fiberglass filter and then get to work. ;D
Taso
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Hi All,
Just a small update. I am still waiting on the first filter I ordered. :( It is the micro filter to protect the membrane drier so it doesn't get clogged and fail.
Also I ordered the wrong modular clamps for the SMC filters so they become like one unit. I ordered the ones that had the integrated brackets trying to kill 2 birds with one stone. Those brackets interfere with the filter housings and can't be tightened down all the way. D'oh!!!
So I ordered the correct modular fittings and separate brackets, I think. ;D
I've attached a picture on how I think the components should be connected together. Please let me know what you think or have better suggestions.
I am not sure if I should feed the aftercooler and desiccant chamber from the bottom and output at the top. I'm also thinking to slope the aftercooler so that standing water will drain.
The membrane drier instructions say to use a regulator downstream. I'm not sure if I should place it at the end of the line as pictured or before the desiccant chamber?
I am also going to mount two shutoff valves so that at the input and exits so that no moisture from the atmosphere can get into the system and needlessly saturate the desiccant when the Shoebox is not in use.
Everything is coming along slowly at least.
Thank you!
Taso
Taso, what kind of desicant filter is that and where did you get it? Thanks Bill C!
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Hey Bill! If your asking about the canister with the blue silica gel, it is a Drierite Laboratory Gas Drying Unit, part number 26840.
https://secure.drierite.com/catalog3/page5.cfm?activeMenu=1 (https://secure.drierite.com/catalog3/page5.cfm?activeMenu=1)
It came with the Shoebox compressor I bought. I probably don't need it but it will indicate how the membrane drier is working.
Taso
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Hey Bill! If your asking about the canister with the blue silica gel, it is a Drierite Laboratory Gas Drying Unit, part number 26840.
https://secure.drierite.com/catalog3/page5.cfm?activeMenu=1 (https://secure.drierite.com/catalog3/page5.cfm?activeMenu=1)
It came with the Shoebox compressor I bought. I probably don't need it but it will indicate how the membrane drier is working.
Taso
Taso that's a nice dryer. I was tempted to order 1 but it's max pressure is 90 psig or 104 psi.
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My Shoebox Max has a max inlet pressure of 85 psi so it's adequate in my situation. The Gas Purifier version "looks" identical to the one I have and it's rated at 100 psi.
Off the top of my head you could probably build a nice canister for media with one of those clear whole house water filters like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pentek-150560-3G-Standard-20-x-2-5-Clear-Whole-House-Filter-House-3-4-NPT/201373462933?epid=1727463714&hash=item2ee2cb3195:g:SQcAAOSw1MBZ1-zA (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pentek-150560-3G-Standard-20-x-2-5-Clear-Whole-House-Filter-House-3-4-NPT/201373462933?epid=1727463714&hash=item2ee2cb3195:g:SQcAAOSw1MBZ1-zA)
and then get creative with directing the flow to have the most contact with the media. I would think a small diameter pvc tube for a core with a corkscrew flow director from top to bottom between the core and outer wall of the canister. The one I linked to is 20 inches and handles up to 125 psi.
Taso
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I have seen utube videos of making them from whole house water filter housings. Just be careful with pressure ratings. They did have to feed the media in via one of the ports, and make a plug to prevent it flowing downstream. They had a micron filter at the end of the tube, at the bottom of the media.
Now, a 20" one, probably will last a year without changing media!
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My Shoebox Max has a max inlet pressure of 85 psi so it's adequate in my situation. The Gas Purifier version "looks" identical to the one I have and it's rated at 100 psi.
Off the top of my head you could probably build a nice canister for media with one of those clear whole house water filters like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pentek-150560-3G-Standard-20-x-2-5-Clear-Whole-House-Filter-House-3-4-NPT/201373462933?epid=1727463714&hash=item2ee2cb3195:g:SQcAAOSw1MBZ1-zA (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pentek-150560-3G-Standard-20-x-2-5-Clear-Whole-House-Filter-House-3-4-NPT/201373462933?epid=1727463714&hash=item2ee2cb3195:g:SQcAAOSw1MBZ1-zA)
and then get creative with directing the flow to have the most contact with the media. I would think a small diameter pvc tube for a core with a corkscrew flow director from top to bottom. The one I linked to is 20 inches and handles up to 125 psi.
Taso
Very interesting Thanks Taso. If I read everything right I would need something that could handle 125 psi. Thats what it says the input PSI should be at the shoebox. I can just see myself getting blasted by what ever I rig up. LOL
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I now use this: Just to the right of the air compressor & below the Shoebox. The other filter on top of the shoebox is just an extra filter.
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I like it Jesse! I need to get my low side completed this weekend! It will be my mission. ;D
Taso
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I now use this: Just to the right of the air compressor & below the Shoebox. The other filter on top of the shoebox is just an extra filter.
I like it also! Can you give me the details of your two filters and were to get them or how you made them?
Thanks Bill C!
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If I remember correctly one of the items Jesse has hooked up is a pressure regulator but I don't remember if the other is a filter or something else. The long one in the center is full of desiccant.
Taso
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If I remember correctly one of the items Jesse has hooked up is a pressure regulator but I don't remember if the other is a filter or something else. The long one in the center is full of desiccant.
Taso
What's the white item? Is it a home made filter?
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It looks like pvc with a foster at one end that's not currently in his filter loop. Jesse was being creative! ;D
Taso
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It looks like pvc with a foster at one end that's not currently in his filter loop. Jesse was being creative! ;D
Taso
+1 on being creative, and it worked fine. The long one with the gauges was bought when I bought my F10, no one wanted to buy it and since I made all my money back from selling other things when I bought my F10 I decided to keep it. I think the original buyer said it cost $600. :)
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I now use this: Just to the right of the air compressor & below the Shoebox. The other filter on top of the shoebox is just an extra filter.
I like the one pvc diy. I think the pvc one beats the $70-$100 gold filter and looks like it can handle 125 psi on the intake side . I could build one like that but I don't want to deal the pain of looking for the right fitting .
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I now use this: Just to the right of the air compressor & below the Shoebox. The other filter on top of the shoebox is just an extra filter.
I like the one pvc diy. I think the pvc one beats the $700-$100 gold filter and looks like it can handle 125 psi on the intake side . I could build one like that but I don't want to deal the pain of looking for the right fitting .
I agree with you Trigger_Finger. I may have to look around at some different stores to see what I can come up with!
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I now use this: Just to the right of the air compressor & below the Shoebox. The other filter on top of the shoebox is just an extra filter.
I like the one pvc diy. I think the pvc one beats the $700-$100 gold filter and looks like it can handle 125 psi on the intake side . I could build one like that but I don't want to deal the pain of looking for the right fitting .
I agree with you Trigger_Finger. I may have to look around at some different stores to see what I can come up with!
I got everything I needed at Home Depot for about $20 except for the beads. I used a recycled filter from two of the small filters on top of my F10 to protect from the dust that might make it in.
I would sell you mine, but right now I am sick with the flue and might be a week before I could mail it.
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Is it the stuffy head flu? I got rid of it about 5 weeks ago and got reinfected with he same one as far as I can tell 5 days ago. It took me 2 weeks to get rid of it the first time. 😕
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Is it the stuffy head flu? I got rid of it about 5 weeks ago and got reinfected with he same one as far as I can tell 5 days ago. It took me 2 weeks to get rid of it the first time. 😕
Yep and it has gone into my chest and breathing is a chore. I also have COPD. I found the best cough medicine is EXLAX. Make me too scared to cough. LOL Just kidding about the EXLAX (someone might take me seriously).
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I hope we feel better soon. I thought since I built up antibodies the first time around this time should be shorter! >:(
Taso
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Will this be enough or I need 3 more diy pvc in series plus the clear oil/water separator to make it work?
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I ordered the 5 lb 3-5 mm blue desiccant from Amazon for $30. I added the vibration timer for maintenance purposes.
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And the PVC pipe says 370 psi! I only need 125 + psi .
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And the PVC pipe says 370 psi! I only need 125 + psi .
Wow that looks awesome. How did you do your caps on the PVC pipe. Just standard pvc glue for cap to pvc pipe? and how did you secure the metal male quick disconnect in the end of the cap? Please let me know how it works for you.
Thanks Bill C!
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Bill, in the picture I used the husky 1/4 F/F connector to secure the quick connect. I will use pvc glue in the am for the 1 1/2 X 1 1/4 reducing male adapter. All less glue I spent like $19 Home Depot dollars. I guess I'm no longer buying the $70-$100 gold filter at Ali express. The dessicant will arrive this Sunday.
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The DIY filter should be about 1/2 the size. :) I am glad it works. If I did it again I would use metal pipe. My excess dessicant is being used inside my gune safe.
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I added the vibration timer for maintenance purposes.
I tried one on my SB Max, and it doesn't detect the vibrations even on the more sensitive setting. I'll be interested in your results. maybe the slightly different location will do it.
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Will this be enough or I need 3 more diy pvc in series plus the clear oil/water separator to make it work?
No, I think you have plenty for drying purposes! :)
Maybe add one of the disposable inline desiccant downstream of the large PVC, so you can easily tell when it needs regeneration.
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Will this be enough or I need 3 more diy pvc in series plus the clear oil/water separator to make it work?
No, I think you have plenty for drying purposes! :)
Maybe add one of the disposable inline desiccant downstream of the large PVC, so you can easily tell when it needs regeneration.
If you look at the disposable one on top of my F10, that will tell you when your beads need to be dried in the oven or replace with new beads. :)
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Will this be enough or I need 3 more diy pvc in series plus the clear oil/water separator to make it work?
No, I think you have plenty for drying purposes! :)
Maybe add one of the disposable inline desiccant downstream of the large PVC, so you can easily tell when it needs regeneration.
If you look at the disposable one on top of my F10, that will tell you when your beads need to be dried in the oven or replace with new beads. :)
I do it the same way X 2 :) I didn't see one in TF's pics though.
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Bill, in the picture I used the husky 1/4 F/F connector tons cure the quick connect. I will use pvc glue in the am for the 1 1/2 X 1 1/4 reducing male adapter. All less glue I spent like $19 Home Depot dollars. I guess I'm no longer buying the $70-$100 gold filter at Ali express. The dessicant will arrive this Sunday.
Trigger_finger is cure the quick connect, like JB wield epoxy or 20/20 epoxy. Wonder if a nut could be put on the connector inside the cap.
Booger how did you secure your fittings in your caps on the one you made?
I thought about metal also, but the drilling and threading the cap would be a big pain for me since I only own a hand drill!
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The DIY filter should be about 1/2 the size. :) I am glad it works. If I did it again I would use metal pipe. My excess dessicant is being used inside my gune safe.
That's the plan! But here in California, humidity is low we don't even sweat.
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Bill, in the picture I used the husky 1/4 F/F connector tons cure the quick connect. I will use pvc glue in the am for the 1 1/2 X 1 1/4 reducing male adapter. All less glue I spent like $19 Home Depot dollars. I guess I'm no longer buying the $70-$100 gold filter at Ali express. The dessicant will arrive this Sunday.
Trigger_finger is cure the quick connect, like JB wield epoxy or 20/20 epoxy. Wonder if a nut could be put on the connector inside the cap.
Booger how did you secure your fittings in your caps on the one you made?
I thought about metal also, but the drilling and threading the cap would be a big pain for me since I only own a hand drill!
Bill, the fittings are threaded in plus I used the Female /Female connectors or coupler as a nut. Quick connect and the coupler are in the Home Depot compressor tool section.
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Bill, in the picture I used the husky 1/4 F/F connector tons cure the quick connect. I will use pvc glue in the am for the 1 1/2 X 1 1/4 reducing male adapter. All less glue I spent like $19 Home Depot dollars. I guess I'm no longer buying the $70-$100 gold filter at Ali express. The dessicant will arrive this Sunday.
Trigger_finger is cure the quick connect, like JB wield epoxy or 20/20 epoxy. Wonder if a nut could be put on the connector inside the cap.
Booger how did you secure your fittings in your caps on the one you made?
I thought about metal also, but the drilling and threading the cap would be a big pain for me since I only own a hand drill!
Bill, the fittings are threaded in plus I used the Female /Female connectors or coupler as a nut. Quick connect and the coupler are in the Home Depot compressor tool section.
ok thanks!
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Booger how did you secure your fittings in your caps on the one you made?
Pipe glue for the pvc and thread on top. Fittings I used Tap & Die.
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Booger how did you secure your fittings in your caps on the one you made?
Pipe glue for the pvc and thread on top. Fittings I used Tap & Die.
Thanks Booger!
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wonder if one of these metal fuel filters would work. I could not find any PSI ratings anywhere. There are a couple different makers. Here is the wix one.
https://www.amazon.com/WIX-Filters-Complete-Line-Filter/dp/B001Q8HF2Q/ref=pd_day0_263_6?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B001Q8HF2Q&pd_rd_r=4B9T8J2DYK7XZ5BHA09G&pd_rd_w=HR11w&pd_rd_wg=lAN8M&psc=1&refRID=4B9T8J2DYK7XZ5BHA09G (https://www.amazon.com/WIX-Filters-Complete-Line-Filter/dp/B001Q8HF2Q/ref=pd_day0_263_6?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B001Q8HF2Q&pd_rd_r=4B9T8J2DYK7XZ5BHA09G&pd_rd_w=HR11w&pd_rd_wg=lAN8M&psc=1&refRID=4B9T8J2DYK7XZ5BHA09G)
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I did the first run tonight . From 3700 psi to 4400 psi it took 1hr 8 minutes. No water from the 2x bleed on the Alpha filter but upon disconnection, I noticed oil spurting out of the high output nozzle and also on the fill nipple of the Alpha filter. I think I have to buy the $70 gold filter with the cotton inside just to absorb the oil .Im actually happy on the run time except the OIL spurting part. I emailed Carole right away and she replied in minutes that it is normal.
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I did the first run tonight . From 3700 psi to 4400 psi it took 1hr 8 minutes. No water from the 2x bleed on the Alpha filter but upon disconnection, I noticed oil spurting out of the high output nozzle and also on the fill nipple of the Alpha filter. I think I have to buy the $70 gold filter with the cotton inside just to absorb the oil .Im actually happy on the run time except the OIL spurting part. I emailed Carole right away and she replied in minutes that it is normal.
Mine should be here tomorrow! Where do you thing the oil is coming from? The shoebox?
Thanks Bill C!
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It's coming from the Silicon oil lubrication that you apply to the pistons.
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Because oil will eventually reached the Alpha Filter or maybe it already has but I need to stop it so I ordered this to absorb the oil and water before it gets to the Alpha Filter.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/0-30mpa-High-Pressure-Paintball-Refilling-Air-Pump-Spare-Parts/32824136159.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.tuIfFh (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/0-30mpa-High-Pressure-Paintball-Refilling-Air-Pump-Spare-Parts/32824136159.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.tuIfFh)
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There was actually a thread on the oil coming out of the Shoebox compressor. I will have to search to find it. It is the silicone oil from the new felt wipers and was coming out black. As far as I can recall there was not a decisive solution for maintaining the silicone oil wipers or going back to lithium grease. I think I had suggested ultimox grease but nothing was brought to consensus.
Silicone oil does have an auto ignition point and ultimox doesn't. I don't remember if the flash point was high enough to not matter but like I said it was not discussed further.
Taso
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I found the thread I was referencing.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130000.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130000.0)
Taso
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There was actually a thread on the oil coming out of the Shoebox compressor. I will have to search to find it. It is the silicone oil from the new felt wipers and was coming out black. As far as I can recall there was not a decisive solution for maintaining the silicone oil wipers or going back to lithium grease. I think I had suggested ultimox grease but nothing was brought to consensus.
Silicone oil does have an auto ignition point and ultimox doesn't. I don't remember if the flash point was high enough to not matter but like I said it was not discussed further.
Taso
When I saw the oil, I thought wow explosion!. Scared me and emailed Carole Kaye right away . Their email response is so fast. At first I got confused since I have an oil less compressor and wondered how the Silicon got into the system.i may have put too much silicone on the felt pads?
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I found the thread I was referencing.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130000.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130000.0)
Taso
Taso thanks for the thread.
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Alfonso,
I think a grease may be better at eliminating the blow by silicon oil. Ultimox does not have a flash point. But the Silicone oil flash point may be high enough to not be an issue. When reading through the threads someone was using silicone grease. I don't know if that is an ideal lubricant but grease will reduce migration.
I think a grease that provides adequate lubrication and will not flash may be the best solution. I would then nominate ultimox or Krytox grease. Whichever is cheaper and does the job.
Taso
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I forgot to add. Ultimox or Krytox grease will be a superior lubricant to Silicone grease.
Taso
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I forgot to add. Ultimox or Krytox grease will be a superior lubricant to Silicone grease.
Taso
Krytox/Ultimox price check
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Ultimox+ (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Ultimox+)
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I don't mind opening the shoebox and applying grease every 2 hrs.
Did someone find out what is the best vibration timer for the SB?
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Wow that is scary! What did shoebox say about the oil coming out. Did you ask about using grease? I will check that other thread out. I have read and followed 3 or 4 threads on the shoebox compressors and none of them ever said anything about the lube from the shoebox coming out. Surly they all must have fixed it some how. Mine should be here today! Think I might wait to see what you hear from them about it. I will look for one of those filters also.
Thanks Bill C!
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Wow that is scary! What did shoebox say about the oil coming out. Did you ask about using grease? I will check that other thread out. I have read and followed 3 or 4 threads on the shoebox compressors and none of them ever said anything about the lube from the shoebox coming out. Surly they all must have fixed it some how. Mine should be here today! Think I might wait to see what you hear from them about it. I will look for one of those filters also.
Thanks Bill C!
Bill I suggest this one for the output side or the gold filter or the more expensive automatic oil water drain / separator like on the Carette. .
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/0-30mpa-High-Pressure-Paintball-Refilling-Air-Pump-Spare-Parts/32824136159.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.tuIfFh (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/0-30mpa-High-Pressure-Paintball-Refilling-Air-Pump-Spare-Parts/32824136159.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.tuIfFh)
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Wow that is scary! What did shoebox say about the oil coming out. Did you ask about using grease? I will check that other thread out. I have read and followed 3 or 4 threads on the shoebox compressors and none of them ever said anything about the lube from the shoebox coming out. Surly they all must have fixed it some how. Mine should be here today! Think I might wait to see what you hear from them about it. I will look for one of those filters also.
Thanks Bill C!
Bill I suggest this one for the output side or the gold filter or the more expensive automatic oil water drain / separator like on the Carette. .
I have the gold filter with the hack I use on my yong hen, but want to stop the old before it gets to the gold filter, so I like you idea of the small filter that comes with the yong hen. I will see if I can find that kit like you found on ebay, easyer for me to buy from there.
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I had upgraded my max for the silicone oil wipers, like what is used on current production. It is easy to over oil them, and/or forget to on the longer interval. I did start to get some silicone oil on bleeding, so added a mini-gold filter. No oil has reached the cotton input filter.
I have pulled both wicks and gone back to lithium grease. I grease them just prior to each fill. I only run for an hour, two if I'm filling two tanks. Lithium was the mfg recommended lube prior to the silicone wicks. I would not use regular silicon grease. That is probably too thick and will not reach the inner o-ring. The high end lubes may work fine.
My vibration hour meter is not working, even on the most sensitive of settings. I thought the sewing machine motion would be more than enough. I have only tried it mounted on top of the chassis, parallel with the long axis. I need to try it rotated 90 degrees, or see if there is a spot on the 1/3hp motor to try.
PS: If using the wicks only add a few drops per the schedule, and using the recommended silicone oil. It is thicker than any of the silicone oils I had on hand.
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I usually put my SCBA tank above my F10. Water (silicone grease) up the spout, let it all hang out.
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I have a Shoebox Max that I ran for about 100 hours on lithium grease before upgrading to the auto oiler, then ran it for about 45 hours that way for a total of 145 hours, never having had to rebuild it.
I decided to do so last weekend, rather than to wait and find I needed to rebuilt it when I need air. I found a surprising amount of lithium grease in with the check valves, but not much silicone oil on its own. There was no "black gunk" that I observed anywhere, as the lithium grease was normal colored, and what signs I could detect of silicone oil were clear. I cleaned it all up and reassembled it, and all went well when I tested it out. I did use krytox on the O-rings during reassembly instead of lithium grease.
I have never seen any buildup of gunk coming out of the Shoebox. I emptied and inspected my guppy tank two weeks ago looking for water, and it had nothing in it – bone dry and clean with no gunk or deposits.
One thing I always do, and I highly recommend it to everyone regardless of compressor type, is to vent the line after the fill by using ONLY the vent on the compressor and NEVER the vent on the fill station. The reason for this is that if you vent from the fill station you end up “blowing” any water droplets, grease/oil, o-ring dust and whatnot into the airline to your tank, as they will rapidly blow out of the body of the compressor and up through the airline. This rapid airflow is in sharp contrast to the very (or at least relatively) slow flow of air from normal compressor operation. The other way around (venting at the compressor) forces the volume of compressed air in the hose back through the compressor to help “clear” the compressor body of the “byproducts of compression.”
One other thing I do in the rare cases where I run my Shoebox for significantly more than one hour, is that I close the tank valve and vent the compressor as described above at about the hour mark, without even stopping the compressor. Then I shut the vent and reopen the tank. This just helps keep any buildup from making it into the line or tank.
So with my Shoebox and these practices, I see no signs of gunk coming out the compressor. And I don’t use a post compression filter – but I do use serious pre-Shoebox filtration for moisture as well as particulates down to 0.1 micron. Maybe some of the gunk is dust mixed in with the lubes? I will add that my o-rings looked fine when they came out – who knows how long they would have lasted, and whether or not the extra filtration helped with their life and the generation of gunk.
Also, I expect that not drying the air before compression could lead to some of this gunk formation. Water will condense out in both stages of compression, and it could be part of the gunk.
Overall I am very happy with the auto lube upgrade myself, and I have seen no downside to it. I keep a log of how much my Shoebox runs, so I know when to lightly re-lube it.
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I have a Shoebox Max that I ran for about 100 hours on lithium grease before upgrading to the auto oiler, then ran it for about 45 hours that way for a total of 145 hours, never having had to rebuild it.
I decided to do so last weekend, rather than to wait and find I needed to rebuilt it when I need air. I found a surprising amount of lithium grease in with the check valves, but not much silicone oil on its own. There was no "black gunk" that I observed anywhere, as the lithium grease was normal colored, and what signs I could detect of silicone oil were clear. I cleaned it all up and reassembled it, and all went well when I tested it out. I did use krytox on the O-rings during reassembly instead of lithium grease.
I have never seen any buildup of gunk coming out of the Shoebox. I emptied and inspected my guppy tank two weeks ago looking for water, and it had nothing in it – bone dry and clean with no gunk or deposits.
One thing I always do, and I highly recommend it to everyone regardless of compressor type, is to vent the line after the fill by using ONLY the vent on the compressor and NEVER the vent on the fill station. The reason for this is that if you vent from the fill station you end up “blowing” any water droplets, grease/oil, o-ring dust and whatnot into the airline to your tank, as they will rapidly blow out of the body of the compressor and up through the airline. This rapid airflow is in sharp contrast to the very (or at least relatively) slow flow of air from normal compressor operation. The other way around (venting at the compressor) forces the volume of compressed air in the hose back through the compressor to help “clear” the compressor body of the “byproducts of compression.”
One other thing I do in the rare cases where I run my Shoebox for significantly more than one hour, is that I close the tank valve and vent the compressor as described above at about the hour mark, without even stopping the compressor. Then I shut the vent and reopen the tank. This just helps keep any buildup from making it into the line or tank.
So with my Shoebox and these practices, I see no signs of gunk coming out the compressor. And I don’t use a post compression filter – but I do use serious pre-Shoebox filtration for moisture as well as particulates down to 0.1 micron. Maybe some of the gunk is dust mixed in with the lubes? I will add that my o-rings looked fine when they came out – who knows how long they would have lasted, and whether or not the extra filtration helped with their life and the generation of gunk.
Also, I expect that not drying the air before compression could lead to some of this gunk formation. Water will condense out in both stages of compression, and it could be part of the gunk.
Overall I am very happy with the auto lube upgrade myself, and I have seen no downside to it. I keep a log of how much my Shoebox runs, so I know when to lightly re-lube it.
I went back a look at the pic of your awesome setup. So as to try and understand what you are saying. You have a ball valve at the start of your filter and desiccant to the shoe box. Do you close that valve and bleed all the air from the tank and then unhook it at that valve and bleed the air from the filters and line to shoebox? Also how do you guys bleed your high pressure side, on your it looks like you just have a male foster fitting there.
Also you say you follow the lubing schedule and it works great. I am still waiting on my shoebox, so I hope it comes with instruction for all this, and if I understand what you and most are saying it dosen't come with silicon oil for the box. Someone said you can't use regular silicon oil, what type is recommended?
Sorry for all the questions, I want to be prepared and use everything the right way. Don't want to mess up these things that I paid so much money for.
Bill C!
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Bill,
When done with a fill I do the following, being as specific as I can be:
1) I shut off the compressor, which always leads to the pistons being in the fully retracted position due to the pressure in the cylinders
2) I close the ball valve to separate the system from the shop air, and close the valve into my tank (I don't fill directly to any guns; the tank is easier)
3) I open the bleed valve on the Shoebox, not the fill line. This blows the high pressure air out the vent hole in the air block of the Shoebox, including venting the tank hose out the same path, blowing any moisture (which I never have) and grease/oil out the unit there rather than through the tank's air hose.
4) Since the pistons are retracted, the excess air in the filters continues to flow out the vent. With my cover off as I use the unit, the shaft block and pistons are fully accessible. I simply push the block and the pistons back into the cylinders to stop the air flow, leaving the pressure (typically about 80 psi or so by this point) in the filters. This slowly leaks out over a day or so, but I don't intentionally vent it. It is fine under pressure, and it usually leaks out over a day or so anyways.
5) I close the Shoebox vent and remove the tank hose from the foster fitting.
I will add that I did see some signs of some vented oil/grease in the Shoebox when I rebuilt the cylinders last week, but I did not think anything of it at the time; I just wiped it up. Some amount is to be expected - no way to lube o-rings without some making it through the system. But bleeding it properly should manage it properly.
I suppose that if you really want to clean out the back portion of the internal Shoebox flow path, one could hook up the tank, pressurize the line, and then vent it at the Shoebox with the tank line open - that would blow a whole bunch of air through it cleaning out anything there pretty well!
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Bill,
When done with a fill I do the following, being as specific as I can be:
1) I shut off the compressor, which always leads to the pistons being in the fully retracted position due to the pressure in the cylinders
2) I close the ball valve to separate the system from the shop air, and close the valve into my tank (I don't fill directly to any guns; the tank is easier)
3) I open the bleed valve on the Shoebox, not the fill line. This blows the high pressure air out the vent hole in the air block of the Shoebox, including venting the tank hose out the same path, blowing any moisture (which I never have) and grease/oil out the unit there rather than through the tank's air hose.
4) Since the pistons are retracted, the excess air in the filters continues to flow out the vent. With my cover off as I use the unit, the shaft block and pistons are fully accessible. I simply push the block and the pistons back into the cylinders to stop the air flow, leaving the pressure (typically about 80 psi or so by this point) in the filters. This slowly leaks out over a day or so, but I don't intentionally vent it. It is fine under pressure, and it usually leaks out over a day or so anyways.
5) I close the Shoebox vent and remove the tank hose from the foster fitting.
I will add that I did see some signs of some vented oil/grease in the Shoebox when I rebuilt the cylinders last week, but I did not think anything of it at the time; I just wiped it up. Some amount is to be expected - no way to lube o-rings without some making it through the system. But bleeding it properly should manage it properly.
I suppose that if you really want to clean out the back portion of the internal Shoebox flow path, one could hook up the tank, pressurize the line, and then vent it at the Shoebox with the tank line open - that would blow a whole bunch of air through it cleaning out anything there pretty well!
Thanks Alan!
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http://shoeboxcompressor.com/images/stories/shoebox_19fps.gif (http://shoeboxcompressor.com/images/stories/shoebox_19fps.gif)
I saw somewhere that Tom indicated that it was a drawback of the auto-oilers is more lube in the output. The animation above shows you the lube has to get past the outer o-ring to reach the inner. That puts it in the air pathway.
After filling a tank, I use to run the max with nothing on the input and output, and add a couple of drops of silicone oil to the input.
I agree with Alan that using a bleed, back at the compressor will do allot to contain it. I have an aftermarket one near the output. The mini-gold filter that I use is only 1" away from the output. As I said, no evidence of any oil/grease has made it that far.
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So how you guys suggest I should remove some of the Silicon saturation inside the microbore tubing?
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So how you guys suggest I should remove some of the Silicon saturation inside the microbore tubing?
If it is detachable, can blow it out with the 1st stage compressor. If attached to fill assy, secure the end, such that it can't whip about, and slowly crack the valve open. Just barely crack it open. Be careful.
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So how you guys suggest I should remove some of the Silicon saturation inside the microbore tubing?
If it is detachable, can blow it out with the 1st stage compressor. If attached to fill assy, secure the end, such that it can't whip about, and slowly crack the valve open. Just barely crack it open. Be careful.
Duh, why didn't think of that. I will connect it to the 4500 psi tank.thanks.
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My vibration hour meter is not working, even on the most sensitive of settings. I thought the sewing machine motion would be more than enough. I have only tried it mounted on top of the chassis, parallel with the long axis. I need to try it rotated 90 degrees, or see if there is a spot on the 1/3hp motor to try.
FWIW: I just rotated the vibration hour meter 90 degrees and appears to be working fine now. Still on the most sensitive setting.
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Fuzzy, I placed mine on top horizontal. I thought it wasn't working. So I used it for 1 hr+ for the first time weeks ago and at the end it showed "1.2". Maybe 1hr 20 min? I may have to rotate it but the self adhesive glue is pretty strong.
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Fuzzy, I placed mine on top horizontal. I thought it wasn't working. So I used it for 1 hr+ for the first time weeks ago and at the end it showed "1.2". Maybe 1hr 20 min? I may have to rotate it but the self adhesive glue is pretty strong.
When I had mine mounted horizontal it racked up only 0.3 hours for what was probably 10 hours or more. I rotated it today and filled a 90 ci and guppy and now it reads 2.5 hours. :) The glue was pretty strong and had plenty of adhesion left to put it back on.
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Ran from 3500-4500 in 1hr 11 minutes. The Yongheng filter was able to absorb some of the oil that the SB was spitting out.
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Alfonso,
I like how you used the tripod/stand to mount your filters! Great idea!
Taso
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Alfonso,
I like how you used the tripod/stand to mount your filters! Great idea!
Taso
Thank you for liking the idea. Taso, that came from a electricity guzzling halogen work lamp which i got rid off.
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Ran from 3500-4500 in 1hr 11 minutes. The Yongheng filter was able to absorb some of the oil that the SB was spitting out.
Looks great! I got mine all set up just need to use enough air from my tanks to fill them back up.
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Hi All,
I got all my air drying stuff plumbed together and mounted on my board. I conntected the California Air tools compressor and the Shoebox and fired up the CAT compressor.
I still have a leak from the bowl gasket on the last particilate particulate filter that feeds the Shoebox and the outlet quick disconnect to the Shoebox leaks too.
I went ahead and ordered a pair of the expensive, $5 each, SMC replacement seals/o-rings because my two o-ring guesses were either too fat and wouldn't go together or too skinny and leaked. If the leak doesn't stop I will buy another of the nicer filters, AMD150C. They have the way better sealing system.
I'm almost gonna compress some air very soon, finally! ;D
Thanks,
Taso
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Hi All,
I got all my air drying stuff plumbed together and mounted on my board. I conntected the California Air tools compressor and the Shoebox and fired up the CAT compressor.
I still have a leak from the bowl gasket on the last particilate filter that feeds the Shoebox and the outlet quick disconnect to the Shoebox leaks too.
I went ahead and ordered a pair of the expensive, $5 each, o-rings because my two oring guesses were either too fat and wouldn't go together or too skinny and leaked. If the leak doesn't stop I will buy another of the nicer filters, AMD150C. They have the way better sealing system.
I'm almost gonna compress some air very soon, finally! ;D
Thanks,
Taso
Looks great Taso! I have mine all set up also. But have not needed air in my two tanks yet. I am worried I will have leaks here or there. Guess I will have to try it on my next days off.
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Living in Damp Nova Scotia has it draw backs. I thought having a water separator filter and a desiccant filter would be enough. well I was wrong.
(https://scontent.fyhz1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s2048x2048/29496631_10156174882286241_6190224192063930368_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=a2b9d3e50c1999284bc0154e653320d9&oe=5B3DB8F8)
I ran my shoebox for 15 hours off and on, over 3 days. The desiccant filter is totally pink. So made me thing that I need MORE. I tried making a bigger one out of ABS, but that blew up and shot 96 cu inches of silica cat litter all in my basement. So I resorted to 12" x 2" threaded pipe.
Now seeing everybody elses setup. I need to redo mine.
Now I need to find out if that hose off my shoebox is 1/8 NPT or M10x1?
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Hi All,
I got all my air drying stuff plumbed together and mounted on my board. I conntected the California Air tools compressor and the Shoebox and fired up the CAT compressor.
I still have a leak from the bowl gasket on the last particilate particulate filter that feeds the Shoebox and the outlet quick disconnect to the Shoebox leaks too.
I went ahead and ordered a pair of the expensive, $5 each, SMC replacement seals/o-rings because my two o-ring guesses were either too fat and wouldn't go together or too skinny and leaked. If the leak doesn't stop I will buy another of the nicer filters, AMD150C. They have the way better sealing system.
I'm almost gonna compress some air very soon, finally! ;D
Thanks,
Taso
Taso nice setup. Looks like a Science lab!. I still suggest a cheap tampon like filter on the output before the expensive Alpha filter though. Like I reported before here or on that other Shoebox thread that when I over oil the felt pad, silicone oil was coming out of the Shoebox saturating the microbore hose which probably got caught in the beloved Alpha filter.
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Living in Damp Nova Scotia has it draw backs. I thought having a water separator filter and a desiccant filter would be enough. well I was wrong.
(https://scontent.fyhz1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s2048x2048/29496631_10156174882286241_6190224192063930368_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=a2b9d3e50c1999284bc0154e653320d9&oe=5B3DB8F8)
I ran my shoebox for 15 hours off and on, over 3 days. The desiccant filter is totally pink. So made me thing that I need MORE. I tried making a bigger one out of ABS, but that blew up and shot 96 cu inches of silica cat litter all in my basement. So I resorted to 12" x 2" threaded pipe.
Now seeing everybody elses setup. I need to redo mine.
Now I need to find out if that hose off my shoebox is 1/8 NPT or M10x1?
What was the psi rating of the ABS you were using? I have over 2 hrs on the pvc pipe I made and so far at 350 psi rating it still holding.
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Thank you Bill and Alfonso! It's taken a long time but I am so close to testing the effectiveness of my
madness hypothesis lol. ;D
Alphonso, The way I've integrated the drip leg/trap at the Shoebox outlet, it "should" capture any oil or condensed water that is created due to the pressure maintaining valve. I hope. The really low flow should make things easier as it shouldn't be blowing up into the Alpha filter.
Member Humdinger posted a reply, #5, in this thread: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=141339.msg1428123#new (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=141339.msg1428123#new) of a water and oil separator. If it is nothing more than a chamber to trap oil or water by condensation or gravity then it has nothing additional to offer my setup.
I am not changing anything in my setup until I compress some are air and have results. I have the humidity indicator disk right before the alpha and the silica gel right after the membrane dryer.
Thanks,
Taso
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Living in Damp Nova Scotia has it draw backs. I thought having a water separator filter and a desiccant filter would be enough. well I was wrong.
(https://scontent.fyhz1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s2048x2048/29496631_10156174882286241_6190224192063930368_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=a2b9d3e50c1999284bc0154e653320d9&oe=5B3DB8F8)
I ran my shoebox for 15 hours off and on, over 3 days. The desiccant filter is totally pink. So made me thing that I need MORE. I tried making a bigger one out of ABS, but that blew up and shot 96 cu inches of silica cat litter all in my basement. So I resorted to 12" x 2" threaded pipe.
Now seeing everybody elses setup. I need to redo mine.
Now I need to find out if that hose off my shoebox is 1/8 NPT or M10x1?
What was the psi rating of the ABS you were using? I have over 2 hrs on the pvc pipe I made and so far at 350 psi rating it still holding.
Not sure, but blew the end cap off, and punched out the 1/4 IM fitting.
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I ordered a cart. So I can put the small compressor on the bottom, shoe box on top. Ordered another 1/4 filter for the low pressure and a tampon style for the high pressure.
Will just need to make a rack so I can put the gun on to fill.
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So the manufactures seals did not solve my leak. >:( But I did turn everything on and made 1000 psi in the system. When I bled the trap I didn't see any water or oil come out. But honestly the Shoebox only ran for about 5 - 10 minutes.
I also let the low pressure compressor run for a couple hours and monitored the membrane drier purge outlet. I did not see any water droplets in the vinyl tubing I configured to capture and guide the discharged water into a bottle.
I expected to see some water. Maybe it's just too dry in the house right now.
Anyway, so far so good. I ordered a replacement bowl for the leaking filter. Hopefully that fixes the problem or else I will take that filter to firearm target practice. ;D
EDIT: I forgot to say I stopped at 1000 psi, not the system or Shoebox. It was just a test run for leaks further down the system. I have read that since the Shoebox makes small amounts of pressure per cycle that it can not overcome even the smallest leak.
Thanks,
Taso
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Thank you Bill and Alfonso! It's taken a long time but I am so close to testing the effectiveness of my madness hypothesis lol. ;D
Alphonso, The way I've integrated the drip leg/trap at the Shoebox outlet, it "should" capture any oil or condensed water that is created due to the pressure maintaining valve. I hope. The really low flow should make things easier as it shouldn't be blowing up into the Alpha filter.
Member Humdinger posted a reply, #5, in this thread: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=141339.msg1428123#new (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=141339.msg1428123#new) of a water and oil separator. If it is nothing more than a chamber to trap oil or water by condensation or gravity then it has nothing additional to offer my setup.
I am not changing anything in my setup until I compress some are air and have results. I have the humidity indicator disk right before the alpha and the silica gel right after the membrane dryer.
Thanks,
Taso
I can tell you up here, 1 water separator and a desiccant filter isn't enough. Because of the well and sump that it is 70 + humidity down in the basement. I got a 5 micron water separator coming. Plus I made a 12x2" larger desiccant filter.
Running the compressor for hours, yielded alot of water and separator didn't trap most of it. I started to run a dehumidifier down there.
I thought about extended the air intake for the compressor. To the duct leading to the register in the dryer above room.
And waiting on a high pressure filter for the shoebox.
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Robert,
The membrane drier I have should remove the bulk of the moisture down to a dew point of -20° Celsius. The main reason I installed the desiccant filter is because I wanted to use it as an moisture indicator.
I also have a moisture indicator between the Shoebox and the Alpha filter. I haven't installed the indicating disk yet.
Thanks,
Taso
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A dehumidifier in a closed room running non stop several hrs before pumping hpa sounds like a good idea.
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A dehumidifier in a closed room running non stop several hrs before pumping hpa sounds like a good idea.
It can only do so much being that the well is there.
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If you are trying to reduce the amount of water vapor in the air that enters your Shoebox compressor, the best thing you can do (other than using an appropriate sized desiccant dryer on the inlet) is to get the air going into your Shoebox as cool as possible. The easiest way to do that is with a long hose from the shop compressor to the Shoebox to give the compressed air time to cool down to room temperature. Another good way would be to get a small refrigerator or freezer and run that air hose through it.
The bottom line is that the air coming out of a shop compressor and going into a Shoebox is almost guaranteed to be at 100% humidty level for the pressure and temperature of that air (unless you pass it through a dryer first). All that a dehumidifier will do is reduce the amount of water that condenses out in the shop compressor - it will have no actual impact on the water vapor level going into the Shoebox.
I made this post to help people understand how this all works, and included a PDF with some sample data: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=139845.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=139845.0)
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I successfully filled one of my 30 minute scba tanks yesterday! Finally! I swapped out the leaking particle filter with a temporary filter as I didn't want the air hose stressing the plastic desiccant filter fittings.
Picture 1 shows the temporary setup. So it took quite some time to fill the cylinder. What I did first was let the Shoebox fill all the connections up to the scba cylinder to 4500 psi with the cylinder valve closed. First to see if the compressor would do make 4500 psi as it's the first time I've run the compressor since I bought it used. Secondly I wanted to look for leaks. I didn't hear anything but next time I'm gonna hit all the connections with soapy water to verify.
The pmv let pressure through the system between 1700 and 1800 psi. I then monitored the fill time for one hour. I started timing at about 2840 psi and after an hour was at about 3325 as noted in pictures 2 and 3. I don't know how that compares to other Shoebox setups. Picture 4 is of the moisture detector between the output of the Shoebox and the Alpha filter. The sections should turn lavender when activated. Since neither section activated I guess I'm below 20%? I'm not sure.
The next pictures are when the Shoebox automatically stopped at the preset pressure of approximately 4500 psi. Picture 5 is the gauge on the fill adapter. Picture 6 is the gauge right off the Shoebox output. Picture 7 is the cylinder gauge. Picture 8 is the final reading of the moisture indicating disk. The 20% section is lavender and the 40% section is slightly lavender on the leading edge. If someone can tell me more about the indicator disk I would appreciate it.
Picture 10 is the cylinder pressure this morning after about 12 hours. The pressure reading decreased slightly so I guess the Shoebox is warming the air a bit. I don't know if this is better or worse than other compressors. I kept the input pressure to the Shoebox around 85 - 90 psi as to not generate too much heat in the Shoebox second and third stage.
I did notice the CAT compressor heads were hand touchable hot. I think I've seen models with fans on the heads of the cylinders. I can see if I can retrofit come if it will be of benefit.
So last but not least, I didn't see any moisture come out of the membrane drier purge or from the bleed at my Shoebox water trap. I also didn't see any water out of the California Air Tools compressor but I did notice colder air come out so I think it had moisture but no liquid water. The silica gel in the canister seemed to be the same color as when I started. The input side showed a little pink but it's been like that since I received it. I guess I should regenerate it to start from vivid blue to be sure.
I'm sure I forgot something so I will add it as I remember. Please leave comments with suggestions or questions.
Thanks you everyone for your patience and help!
Taso
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I knew I forgot something! ;D The setup ran in my finished basement and the humidity in the house is between 30 and 36% according to the humidifiers digital humidistat, shows 30%, and separate sensor upstairs that show 36%. They've never agreed so I don't know which one is correct.
Thanks,
Taso
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I knew I forgot something! ;D The setup ran in my finished basement and the humidity in the house is between 30 and 36% according to the humidifiers digital humidistat, shows 30%, and separate sensor upstairs that show 36%. They've never agreed so I don't know which one is correct.
Thanks,
Taso
is 6% that much of a difference? I don't think it would be anything to worry about.
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Robert,
I didn't think so either. I only wanted to give both readings for reference and let the reader decide. :)
Thank you,
Taso
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Looking good! At that low a humidity level, you won't get a lot of condensation in the shop compressor, but the humidity going into the filter system prior to the Shoebox will still be close to 100%. The driers seem to be doing their job, and it looks like you have no leaks.
It is hard to say for sure, as I have no idea the total volume of the elaborate plumbing system after the Shoebox, but your fill rate is at least 4.7 cubic feet per hour, and probably a good bit higher than that due to all the pipes and the Alpha filter. Here is how I got the 4.7: the tank increased 485 psi in one hour, and 485 psi is 10.8% of the 4500 psi level at which the tank holds 44 cubic feet of air. 10.7% of the 44 is 4.7 cubic feet in the one hour.
The original Shoebox was rated at 4 cf per hour, and most of the units before the Freedom series seem to run around 5 - 5.5 CF per hour due to the upgrades. So it looks like all is well in the performance of the your unit - after all, you had to increase the air pressure in all that extra space in the pipes and filter by 485 psi too, so your's is probably in the right range.
Congrats!
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Thank you Alan! I think I was leaking at the big dial gauge right at the output of the Shoebox. I remember screwing it in when I forst got the Shoebox but never with a wrench. So I removed it last night and removed all the teflon tape. Once all clean I applied some Vibra-Tite 444 with primer and reinstalled the gauge.
I connected my other 30 minute cylinder and followed the same fill procedure. This time the Shoebox "seemed" to fill the tubing, Alpha filter and microbore hose much faster. I won't know for sure because I didn't time it. I guess what I can do is start the 1 hour test that I did yesterday starting at the same pressure again. Next time. ;D
Now I have two full 30 minute cylinders and am very happy!
I was wondering if adding a 5 gallon portable air tank to increase the capacity of the CAT compressor would help? The CAT starts at about 96 psi and stops at 120. With the 5 gallon tank in the loop and the Shoebox working the CAT compressor ran for 2 minutes and 31 seconds then didn't cycle on again for 9 minutes and 15 seconds. My goal would be to keep the CAT compressor output air the coolest. Without the 5 gallon portable tank the compressor turns on more often but for a shorter time. I guess I could measure the cylinder head temps with ir thermometer for like 5 cycles and see. Maybe tonight ;D
Thanks!
Taso
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One easy way to insure the air getting into you manifold set up is at ambient temperature would be to just add more hose in the flow path. The air flow into the Shoebox is so low and slow that having the extra cool down time in the longer hose might make a difference. But from the pictures of the filter set up you have I would say that the air will be plenty cool going into your Shoebox anyways . . . .
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Thank you Alan.
I think that I'm over thinking...again lol. I did get the compressor with the aluminum tank to dissipate more heat. But you're right, the flow is so low it shouldn't matter much.
Taso
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Taso,
Glad to see you have the lab up and running. :)
I don't think your CAT is adding heat with the long times between running and all the surface area of your filters and plumbing, before the shoebox. You will always get some heat. When you fill your gun from the tank (no active pistons) the gun will feel warm, and the tank will have a slight cooling. You can set your shut-off slightly higher, such that when it cools will have a full tank.
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When I upgraded to a CAT compressor I went with the 5 gal. version, previous compressor was about 3 gal. with the 5 gal. on my f-10, the cycle time is close to 15 minutes, that was a suggested cycle rate I read on the Shoe Box site I do believe.
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Taso,
Glad to see you have the lab up and running. :)
I don't think your CAT is adding heat with the long times between running and all the surface area of your filters and plumbing, before the shoebox. You will always get some heat. When you fill your gun from the tank (no active pistons) the gun will feel warm, and the tank will have a slight cooling. You can set your shut-off slightly higher, such that when it cools will have a full tank.
Thank you John! I am very glad. I only wish I had found one drip of water lol. Maybe in the coming months when the humidity goes up outside. Maybe I should be careful for what I wish for. ;D
I thought about bumping the shutoff pressure a bit to compensate for the heating of the air. I'm going to wait and see how things run for a while.
Thank you,
Taso
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When I upgraded to a CAT compressor I went with the 5 gal. version, previous compressor was about 3 gal. with the 5 gal. on my f-10, the cycle time is close to 15 minutes, that was a suggested cycle rate I read on the Shoe Box site I do believe.
Thank you James! I'll search for that.
Taso
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I successfully filled one of my 30 minute scba tanks yesterday! Finally! I swapped out the leaking particle filter with a temporary filter as I didn't want the air hose stressing the plastic desiccant filter fittings.
Picture 1 shows the temporary setup. So it took quite some time to fill the cylinder. What I did first was let the Shoebox fill all the connections up to the scba cylinder to 4500 psi with the cylinder valve closed. First to see if the compressor would do make 4500 psi as it's the first time I've run the compressor since I bought it used. Secondly I wanted to look for leaks. I didn't hear anything but next time I'm gonna hit all the connections with soapy water to verify.
The pmv let pressure through the system between 1700 and 1800 psi. I then monitored the fill time for one hour. I started timing at about 2840 psi and after an hour was at about 3325 as noted in pictures 2 and 3. I don't know how that compares to other Shoebox setups. Picture 4 is of the moisture detector between the output of the Shoebox and the Alpha filter. The sections should turn lavender when activated. Since neither section activated I guess I'm below 20%? I'm not sure.
The next pictures are when the Shoebox automatically stopped at the preset pressure of approximately 4500 psi. Picture 5 is the gauge on the fill adapter. Picture 6 is the gauge right off the Shoebox output. Picture 7 is the cylinder gauge. Picture 8 is the final reading of the moisture indicating disk. The 20% section is lavender and the 40% section is slightly lavender on the leading edge. If someone can tell me more about the indicator disk I would appreciate it.
Picture 10 is the cylinder pressure this morning after about 12 hours. The pressure reading decreased slightly so I guess the Shoebox is warming the air a bit. I don't know if this is better or worse than other compressors. I kept the input pressure to the Shoebox around 85 - 90 psi as to not generate too much heat in the Shoebox second and third stage.
I did notice the CAT compressor heads were hand touchable hot. I think I've seen models with fans on the heads of the cylinders. I can see if I can retrofit come if it will be of benefit.
So last but not least, I didn't see any moisture come out of the membrane drier purge or from the bleed at my Shoebox water trap. I also didn't see any water out of the California Air Tools compressor but I did notice colder air come out so I think it had moisture but no liquid water. The silica gel in the canister seemed to be the same color as when I started. The input side showed a little pink but it's been like that since I received it. I guess I should regenerate it to start from vivid blue to be sure.
I'm sure I forgot something so I will add it as I remember. Please leave comments with suggestions or questions.
Thanks you everyone for your patience and help!
Taso
Hey Taso,
Congratulations on the first run, I know you have been working on your system for a long time. Nice to see it come together and work for you.
I think you know that my system shares a couple of components of yours, Shoebox Max and a California Air Tools 5 gallon compressor. I use a MotorGuard M30 filter on the low side and a Gold Filter with molecular sieve on the high side. I believe it is very effective based on the results I have seen.
The numbers you discuss on your systems performance sound pretty normal to me. I recently filled a 44cf tank from 0 to 4500 and the run time was almost exactly 8 hours. So it was making around 560PSI into the bottle per hour. My CAT Compressor cycles on about every 17 minutes or so, and runs for about a minute, so a very light duty cycle.
All of the details on my system's performance are visible here, in my compressor log - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oygaCsqJRjNGGTpXGPIYnAU1ZkyqWbBh5Tz7ODzHb24/edit?usp=sharing
Keeping a log is very helpful in identifying any change in performance and tracking maintenance, well worth the time.
Regarding heat from the CAT - I am sure there is some, but as has been mentioned, the 5 Gallon tank size helps, as does the relatively light volume of the air the Shoebox demands. As was also mentioned, lengthening the length of the hose between the CAT and the Shoebox is cheap and effective. I have 75ft of coiled plastic hose between the CAT and the Shoebox, the coils make it manageable and it was about $15 at Harbor Freight.
I smiled when I read your concern over the "loss" of 100 PSI after cooling and making adjustments for it. That is "Compressor-less" thinking ;^). It is worth worrying about when you have to go to the shop for refills and pay for every PSI, but remember you are now Master of your Air Pressure Domain - you can top off anytime, so don't sweat the small stuff.
Regarding leaving the system charged when shut down, I agree with the counsel of not doing so, for the simple reason that "rebuilding" that pressure on the high side does not take that long and does expose everything in the system to unnecessary load or stress. I found it took my system about 16 minutes to charge the Gold filter and hose to the tank. I am not in that big of a hurry, and will happily trade that time for extended service between rebuilds and long term health for the Shoebox.
I know that everybody's needs are different and there are lots of options out there for new compressors these days, but I am completely satisfied with my Max set up - slow and steady wins the race.
Congrats on your set up, I know that you have researched and worked hard on it.
Rod
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Rod,
Thank you! I'm very glad it's up and running finally. I think I have the second to smallest CAT compressor. I picked it for exclusive Shoebox duty. I almost picked the tiny airbrush version they have but it looked like a toy. ;D The one I have is the 1/2 horsepower, 2 gallon version. I would like to think it was designed to last as it configured. I was wondering if adding tank capacity would hurt it mainly by overheating the heads and to a less effect of warming the compressed air produced more. I'm pretty sure my air warming concerns are unwarranted as I've been assured my surface are will provide enough cooling. In my initial planning I had even bought an oil cooler/heat exchanger to cool the compressed air. I realized it was unnecessary and elected to not use it. ::)
I was tempted to grab an F10 when their price dropped. But I was reminded by John, FuzzyGrub, that the F8 and F10 run hotter and are only faster due to the higher low pressure input requirement. I can't support the 125 psi requirement and I think the added heat created would make the cooled hpa cylinder pressure drop greater. Plus I am not in a hurry so any speed advantage would have been lost on me.
This was all a proof of concept to see what works, what doesn't and more importantly what is necessary. It was my small contribution to the wealth of knowledge the forum contains. There is more detail and thought process than necessary for the readers that will use this thread as reference, I hope. Brainstorming works best for me so that's why I documented my thoughts too. ;D
So, to not leave any loose ends, I did hit all the fittings with soapy water from a spray bottle and didn't get any bubbles. I will take everyone's suggestion to vent the system and not try to save time by leaving it pressurized. I have some caps to keep moisture and spiders out of the male foster output fitting.
I think I'm going to leave the moisture indicator where it's at for now. At least till the high humidity months to document what the membrane drier is accomplishing. I think I'm gonna go ahead and regenerate the silica gel so that I'm not guessing if it's changing color or not.
Next steps: I'd like to figure out a rebuildable cartridge for the Alpha filter. I have some sealed indicating 4a molecular sieve waiting to be put into use. I saw a stainless steel rebuildable cartridge on ebay but I'd like to be able to see if the sieve is indicating moisture. The current cartridge looks like the endcaps are glued to the clear body. I may be able to reuse the endcaps but the clear body tube will get trashed on disassembly. I think.
Thank you everyone and please keep the discussion and new ideas coming! ;D
Taso
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I almost forgot! I need to put prices on what everything cost. This is the scary part no one likes to mention. The hidden costs. ;D
The upgraded Shoebox Max, the desiccant canister, 4 big sealed desiccant bags of silica gel and drierite, accessories, rebuild parts, one coiled hose and some small capacity Campbell Hausfeld filter group, that I didn't use, for $600 including shipping.
I got the membrane drier for $80. The CAT compressor was $169. All the filters, regulators and brackets were $452. The brass fittings and yellow hoses were $83. I didn't use all the brass fittings and I skipped the oil cooler so I didn't use it's associated fittings.
The Alpha filter was $200. The hpa fittings and moisture indicator were around $120.
So the grand total is $1704 if my math is right.
I could eliminate the first regulator, two filters following and the next regulator and save about $200 but may have to change the remaining micro filter cartridge more often. I could have used my loud, old Craftsman 4.5 horsepower compressor and saved another $169. If I find the canister filter isn't doing anything I can sell that off for about $50 and not need the last $100 particle filter. I could probably sell the Campbell Hausfeld filters and hose for $30 - $40.
So the bare bones setup would have cost me around $549 less for a rough total of $1155.
That's around the cost of what a new F10 was selling for a couple months ago without shipping and it still needed water removal.
A Carette compressor with the Alpha filter is $1699 plus shipping plus a surcharge if you use a credit card, so I have heard, from the exclusive U.S. seller.
The Altaros is about $739 now. It needs a huge compressor and water removal.
The $300 Yong Heng compressors are definitely cheaper but they need water removal as they have no water removal. But they're not even in the running as they cannot top off a scba cylinder to 4500 psi without destroying themselves.
I don't know anything about the Omega compressors.
So I am hoping we can compare and contrast the current solutions in price and performance. My setup is not fast but that was never a priority with me. I solved that by getting two 30 minute scba tanks that cost me less than $200. I can shoot off one while the other tops off.
I was trying for a budget setup with efficient and cheap water removal. The membrane drier will last for 10 years of continuous use as long as you keep it from getting contaminated with dust and oil. It doesn't need to be regenerated and it doesn't need electricity. And it only cost me $80. ;D But to be honest I did wait for a good deal on it on ebay the same way I got one filter and one regulator used to save money.
Compressing air is not cheap. lol
Thanks,
Taso
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I almost forgot! I need to put prices on what everything cost. This is the scary part no one likes to mention. The hidden costs. ;D
The upgraded Shoebox Max, the desiccant canister, 4 big sealed desiccant bags of silica gel and drierite, accessories, rebuild parts, one coiled hose and some small capacity Campbell Hausfeld filter group, that I didn't use, for $600 including shipping.
I got the membrane drier for $80. The CAT compressor was $169. All the filters, regulators and brackets were $452. The brass fittings and yellow hoses were $83. I didn't use all the brass fittings and I skipped the oil cooler so I didn't use it's associated fittings.
The Alpha filter was $200. The hpa fittings and moisture indicator were around $120.
So the grand total is $1704 if my math is right.
I could eliminate the first regulator, two filters following and the next regulator and save about $200 but may have to change the remaining micro filter cartridge more often. I could have used my loud, old Craftsman 4.5 horsepower compressor and saved another $169. If I find the canister filter isn't doing anything I can sell that off for about $50 and not need the last $100 particle filter. I could probably sell the Campbell Hausfeld filters and hose for $30 - $40.
So the bare bones setup would have cost me around $549 less for a rough total of $1155.
That's around the cost of what a new F10 was selling for a couple months ago without shipping and it still needed water removal.
A Carette compressor with the Alpha filter is $1699 plus shipping plus a surcharge if you use a credit card, so I have heard, from the exclusive U.S. seller.
The Altaros is about $739 now. It needs a huge compressor and water removal.
The $300 Yong Heng compressors are definitely cheaper but they need water removal as they have no water removal. But they're not even in the running as they cannot top off a scba cylinder to 4500 psi without destroying themselves.
I don't know anything about the Omega compressors.
So I am hoping we can compare and contrast the current solutions in price and performance. My setup is not fast but that was never a priority with me. I solved that by getting two 30 minute scba tanks that cost me less than $200. I can shoot off one while the other tops off.
I was trying for a budget setup with efficient and cheap water removal. The membrane drier will last for 10 years of continuous use as long as you keep it from getting contaminated with dust and oil. It doesn't need to be regenerated and it doesn't need electricity. And it only cost me $80. ;D But to be honest I did wait for a good deal on it on ebay the same way I got one filter and one regulator used to save money.
Compressing air is not cheap. lol
Thanks,
Taso
WOW... I was going to ask how much it costs..
I'm at only 400 CAD for my shoebox, 25$ for my compressor, about 110$ in hoses, filters, descant, fittings. Knew I wasn't going to get 100% dry air. But its dryish.
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Wow Taso, that did add up.
Here's mine.
Shoebox Max $500
CAT 1hp 5gal compressor $160
Gold filter $90
13a Media, PVC and O rings $20
Motor Guard M30 with 2 filters $70
Low side hoses $20
Low side fittings $15
Total $875
I could probably have saved $100 by going with a cheaper feed compressor, but the quiet operation of the Cat is a pleasure.
The low side M30 filter is very effective on moisture, oil and particles to one micron, and on the high side, the Gold filter with the 13a molecular sieve hack is working very well too.
If you are filling guns, the Shoebox may seem slow, but as you mentioned, I have been able to pick up a couple of 44cf scba bottles, both with 2 or 3 years left on them for less than $100 total, so I always have air ready to go. I always shoot at a range, with no power to run a compressor, so a fill on site was never an option for me.
Offered as one more approach and data point for the discussion.
Thanks
Rod
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I think that is a great data point Rod. With all due respect to Taso's great set up, I have always maintained that we need to dry the air that we use whether it goes into a tank or directly into a gun. That drying step can be either before or after the Shoebox, but needs to be done correctly with an appropriately sized dryer for the task. We do not need to do it in both places - or in other words, if we dry the air adequately going into the Shoebox (aka remove the water vapor to a level that it won't condense when compressed), it won't pick up more water vapor as it goes through the system.
I think we can set up a good drying and filtering system going into the Shoebox for around $200 or a bit less. Then the only other costs are the Shoebox itself and a shop compressor. I already had my own shop compressor, and I will say that once you have one and get used to all the great things you can do with shop air you will always want to have one (even if you sell off the Shoebox and buy an all-in-one compressor). I really don't consider it part of the costs, any more than I do the tools that I used to assemble my filter system, as I use it for so much else.
So in my view the real costs are $200 or so plus what you pay for the Shoebox. When I bought mine it was over $700 for the Max, and now it is $500 for the Freedom 10. So $700 plus some kind of oil free shop compressor will get you up and running.
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Rod,
Yeah, I did geek out a bit. lol The two things that I think need to be tested better is the low pressure water removal and the high pressure pmv wringing out the water.
It had been suggested that the low side drying would not accomplish much. But I think that was with the assumption that getting the dew point down to -4°F was not possible. The membrane dryer accomplishes that. Right now there is one used IDG1 membrane dryer for $57 on Ebay. An AMH150C prefilter and AR20 regulator can be had for $135 new on Ebay. That would be the minimum to protect the membrane drier and create the required backpressure for the purge air. Any regulator would work so it doesn't have to be an AR20.
To test I could try running the CAT compressor directly to the Shoebox and see if there is water being collected in the outlet drip leg/trap, due to the pmv, the next time I have to top off a cylinder due to the pmv. I also have the indicating disk before the Alpha so that would give me a reading of moisture too.
The Alpha/molecular sieve is not intended for bulk water removal as it has very little capacity. It will remove some but not all of any remaining moisture. I checked the cartridge in the Alpha after me my two top off's and the indicating strip is still blue. The cartridge was used and open to atmosphere for about a year so It's got to be close to capacity.
I was looking for a replacement cartridge/guinea pig to use as a refillable cartridge. Nuvair has a molecular sieve only cartridge for $32. I was wrong about the stainless steel cartridge. It's ~$201, not $100 like I thought. I'm gonna try to use what I have. ;)
Thanks!
Taso
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I think that is a great data point Rod. With all due respect to Taso's great set up, I have always maintained that we need to dry the air that we use whether it goes into a tank or directly into a gun. That drying step can be either before or after the Shoebox, but needs to be done correctly with an appropriately sized dryer for the task. We do not need to do it in both places - or in other words, if we dry the air adequately going into the Shoebox (aka remove the water vapor to a level that it won't condense when compressed), it won't pick up more water vapor as it goes through the system.
I think we can set up a good drying and filtering system going into the Shoebox for around $200 or a bit less. Then the only other costs are the Shoebox itself and a shop compressor. I already had my own shop compressor, and I will say that once you have one and get used to all the great things you can do with shop air you will always want to have one (even if you sell off the Shoebox and buy an all-in-one compressor). I really don't consider it part of the costs, any more than I do the tools that I used to assemble my filter system, as I use it for so much else.
So in my view the real costs are $200 or so plus what you pay for the Shoebox. When I bought mine it was over $700 for the Max, and now it is $500 for the Freedom 10. So $700 plus some kind of oil free shop compressor will get you up and running.
[/quote]
Thanks Alan.
I took the approach of someone reading this today, trying to get the complete picture of the costs.
You are absolutely correct on the usefulness of a shop air compressor. You caused me to remember that anyone who would buy a Freedom 10 would ideally have a shop compressor that would provide a steady 125psi. The one I have won't do that, but there are plenty out there that will, and probably at about the price I paid for the CAT if you can live with a bit more noise.
Your comment about attacking moisture on the low side is a good one - a lot cheaper to do it there as well.
I have seen results from the Gold Filter with molecular sieve, it has definitely collected moisture, but I do agree that it is a relatively small amount, and its capacity is very small, so it won't solve a moisture problem that was not addressed on the low side. I recharged the media after about 12 hours run time, and Taso did the math that indicated it was at about half its capacity. I took that to mean that the low side M30 filter was working pretty well.
At around $800 all set up, the Shoebox is still in the game.
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I wholeheartedly recommend the Shoebox and would buy one again. If something were to happen to my Shoebox I know parts are available. Rebuild kits are $35. I don't think you can kill a Shoebox. ;D
If my Shoebox were unrepairable I would buy another Max or an F8 or an F10 and figure out how to slow it down and make sure it can run safely at less than 125 psi.
Taso
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Rod,
Yeah, I did geek out a bit. lol The two things that I think need to be tested better is the low pressure water removal and the high pressure pmv wringing out the water.
It had been suggested that the low side drying would not accomplish much. But I think that was with the assumption that getting the dew point down to -4°F was not possible. The membrane dryer accomplishes that. Right now there is one used IDG1 membrane dryer for $57 on Ebay. An AMH150C prefilter and AR20 regulator can be had for $135 new on Ebay. That would be the minimum to protect the membrane drier and create the required backpressure for the purge air. Any regulator would work so it doesn't have to be an AR20.
To test I could try running the CAT compressor directly to the Shoebox and see if there is water being collected in the outlet drip leg/trap, due to the pmv, the next time I have to top off a cylinder due to the pmv. I also have the indicating disk before the Alpha so that would give me a reading of moisture too.
The Alpha/molecular sieve is not intended for bulk water removal as it has very little capacity. It will remove some but not all of any remaining moisture. I checked the cartridge in the Alpha after me my two top off's and the indicating strip is still blue. The cartridge was used and open to atmosphere for about a year so It's got to be close to capacity.
I was looking for a replacement cartridge/guinea pig to use as a refillable cartridge. Nuvair has a molecular sieve only cartridge for $32. I was wrong about the stainless steel cartridge. It's ~$201, not $100 like I thought. I'm gonna try to use what I have. ;)
Thanks!
Taso
Well, if a guy can't geek out on his hobbies, where can he?
If you are still inclined to experiment, I am sure I am not alone in my interest in reading about the results.
But don't forget to get out a shoot some of that air, the compressor stuff is fun, but not as much as shooting.
Thanks for sharing all your efforts.
Rod
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Well, if a guy can't geek out on his hobbies, where can he?
If you are still inclined to experiment, I am sure I am not alone in my interest in reading about the results.
But don't forget to get out a shoot some of that air, the compressor stuff is fun, but not as much as shooting.
Thanks for sharing all your efforts.
Rod
Rod,
I agree on all counts! ;D I really should shoot more. But I also love researching and testing. I will find how to balance both some day. ;D
Thank you!
Taso
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I just finished my low pressure air filter/dryer system. Waiting on my high pressure filter. I got a hose that goes from the intake to higher up. Not installed, And I run a dehumidifier in that room.
10 micron to 5 micron, than a desiccant filter, to another as a ref window. If I see that turning pink, than I know it time to dry out the bigger one I made. Which is just 12x2" pipe with some filter floss to keep in the silica gel litter I filled it with.
If I want shop air for a air blower. I just disconnect it from the bottom of the big desiccant filter.
(https://scontent.fyaw1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/30698397_10156234917426241_4361500801886060544_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=v1%3AAeEvBL-N1bPcqAWKI77_HpXKuLDwMCxek6xuakPEgIBLDxYUVZJWJIjc0xVESrR_Q7cNIU_RyqRk3Xif2tl35xBZHHYv9jEb25-9P5CfeSSuVA&oh=db8847f8af6922cc838d0c3b90aa11ba&oe=5B5C3C6C)
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Well, I am filling my 45 min SCBA tank now. It was down to about 3600 psi. When I first started I had all kinds of leaks. At this point I ended up removing everything on the pressure side except the single hose with the small Chinese filter. I did have a small ninja gauge after the filter and before the tank. But it popped off twice from it’s female side. It must be defective. Will see if ninga will take it and send me another. So I sat there and watched the the tank and of course the gauge on it showed 4500 and the shoebox ran for a while, but did shut off on its own. The air compressor would scare the &^^& out of me every time it kicked on. Will need to mess with the fittings on my gold filter to get them to stop leaking. The small filter did catch stuff on it, but was clean on output side. Did not fill wet but want more filtering for future fills. I took a pic of the setup but it’s too big so I will see if I can shrink it and add it later.
Thanks Bill C!
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Ok here is a pic of my setup. The small black filter is to hook into the bottom of the gold filter. But I had some small leaks down there and will need to fix them.
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I ran a 100ft hose through conduit from my garage to my basement for my Altaros. I have 3 water traps. 1 at the compressor and 1 as it comes in the basement. The first one doesn't collect anything (to close). The second does quite a bit and the third just barely anything. Then there is a dessicant filter before it enters the Altaros. The Altaros has its own water trap and dessicant. I do have to stop every 2 hours and change the dessicant in the first one. I just got done filling a 4500 60min tank from 0psi and the beads in the Ataros did not change color one bit. So I'm assuming its doing a good enough job with this setup?
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I ran a 100ft hose through conduit from my garage to my basement for my Altaros. I have 3 water traps. 1 at the compressor and 1 as it comes in the basement. The first one doesn't collect anything (to close). The second does quite a bit and the third just barely anything. Then there is a dessicant filter before it enters the Altaros. The Altaros has its own water trap and dessicant. I do have to stop every 2 hours and change the dessicant in the first one. I just got done filling a 4500 60min tank from 0psi and the beads in the Ataros did not change color one bit. So I'm assuming its doing a good enough job with this setup?
That seams great! How long do that set-up take you to fill a 60 min tank?
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You mentioned your ninja gauge was popping apart , I see you have some of the brass foster fittings, and they do not play well with the silver ones.
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You mentioned your ninja gauge was popping apart , I see you have some of the brass foster fittings, and they do not play well with the silver ones.
It was a silver foster fitting, so I assume steel. But it's not a ninga it's an air venturi inline gauge. I was just looking at it so I could write them and noticed I had the wrong company. LOL
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I ran a 100ft hose through conduit from my garage to my basement for my Altaros. I have 3 water traps. 1 at the compressor and 1 as it comes in the basement. The first one doesn't collect anything (to close). The second does quite a bit and the third just barely anything. Then there is a dessicant filter before it enters the Altaros. The Altaros has its own water trap and dessicant. I do have to stop every 2 hours and change the dessicant in the first one. I just got done filling a 4500 60min tank from 0psi and the beads in the Ataros did not change color one bit. So I'm assuming its doing a good enough job with this setup?
That seams great! How long do that set-up take you to fill a 60 min tank?
Right around 7 hours from 0 to 4500. My compressor is around 6.4 cfm at 90psi. I turn it up to 120psi and use the altaros's adjuster for 60% on 40% off recommended settings. The shop compressor refills its 30gal tank at 90psi. It takes around 2 hours from 3000 to 4500 top offs.
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Hi All,
My setup is evolving again because I have learned more facts about water removal. I have decided to add another pressure maintaining valve with a 3000 psi setpoint before my Alpha filter to squeeze out more moisture before it reaches the molecular sieve.
Two other things I learned: one is that silica gel works best at higher humidity levels and ineffective at low humidity levels. I'll attach a chart. The second is that molecular sieve works best at 1590 psi and above. So in my setup the desiccant canister doesn't offer any benefits placed after my membrane drier so I will be removing and the particle filter from my loop.
That would explain the silica gel not changing color after filling two 30 minute scba cylinders to 4500 psi. I actually thought the silica gel looked bluer but figured it was my imagination! :o
I will post pics of the new setup and hopefully have some water to show for my efforts. It should be easier now that summer is coming. the next time I fill a cylinder.
Thank you!
Taso
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Do you have a graph for the molecular sieve compared to pressure? I've contemplated a pmv a few times, but haven't convinced myself it is needed. 99% of the time, I'm refilling a tank, not starting from zero. As soon as the valve is cracked open it goes to well above the 1590psi. Very seldom would I take the tank down to lower than 2500psi, since all my pcps are 3k. So, it would be just the unpressurized air that was in the microbore hose that would not see the full effect of the filtering. Am I missing something?
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Hi John,
I got the 1590 psi pressure from a link Guykuo provided in the first page of this thread: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=120428.msg1167974#msg1167974 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=120428.msg1167974#msg1167974) I will see if I can find reference to the number when I get a chance later as I have to get to an appointment soon. I wanted to give you a quick reply.
The pmv is pre treating the air and practically guaranteeing that there is no liquid water going further down the system. My Shoebox starts at zero pressure and takes about 45 minutes to fill the Alpha and fill adapter to 4500 psi. So all this startup air needs to be dried. So does the following air.
If I understand you correctly, I think you are saying that the remaining pressure in your cylinder will flow backwards and pressurize the entire system once you open the cylinder valve. Correct?
I don't think my first pmv would allow backflow through the Alpha filter. I did mention you could probably mimic a pmv by pressurizing the system first before you opened the cylinder valve and as long as the equilibrium pressure doesn't fall below 1590 psi. But you will also could potentially be moving liquid water back through the system too. Liquid water produces a lot of heat when it contacts molecular sieve. That could create an over pressure condition in the system when the compressed air is made to expand. Like I said, I am just learning this stuff so I don't know if there is a flaw in these theories.
The point being is that for $80 pmv and a pipe fitting water trap before the molecular sieve will extend its life versus not pre treating the air. The pmv set at 3000 psi will bring the ambient pressure humidity to .5%. That's from an article I have attached in my pmv thread here: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=142737.msg1444769#msg1444769 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=142737.msg1444769#msg1444769)
Like I said, I'm trying ideas out to see if they benefit or don't.
Thank you,
Taso
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Hi Taso,
Sorry I didn't respond quicker. Did a 3 day weekend for spring fishing. :)
I understand what you are trying to do with the second 3K pmv. My comment is about the alpha filter with pmv. or any filter followed by a pmv on the output of the SB. When I was looking at the pmv, my goal was to keep the filter pressurized so didn't loose time at every fill. That would work on a SB if the check-valve on HP cyl didn't leak down over time. I was looking to put a shut-off on the input to the filter.
If the media effectiveness is the only issue, and does not perform well/great under 1590psi, then back filling with the already filtered air in the tank, should minimize that concern. The only air that didn't get filtered is what was in the output microbore hose. That can also be further minimized by plugging the hose right after it is removed from the tank, so room air will not migrate into it.
Anyway, it was my rational to not add even more plumbing and expense to my SB set-up. ;)
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Hey John!
Sorry I didn't respond quicker. Did a 3 day weekend for spring fishing. :)
It's ok and I'm jealous! ;D
I too had wanted to leave the Shoebox pressurized when not in use but I guess it wasn't designed that way from the responses I received.
As for molecular sieve: all I have read is that it works best at a minimum pressure at 1590 psi.
I honestly can not say there is anything wrong with your idea. I'm still trying to understand all this hpa stuff. ;D
The downsides that I can think of are possibly pushing any condensed water and contaminated air back through the molecular sieve and system. It could be possible that the reverse flow can damage or unseat orings? And lastly you'd be wasting precious filtered air! ;D
I've tried looking at scuba compressor system layouts and trying to figure out, by searching online, what and why they are doing stuff. All of the schematics I've seen have the pmv pretty much last. I have read they set pmv's in the 2000 - 2300 psi range. I have seen they use a lot of one way valves.
I think I know the reason why their pmv valves are set lower. There are scuba tanks that are only filled to 2400 to 2640 psi. So the pmv has to be set lower to fill these lower pressure cylinders.
Thanks!
Taso
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My little mini gold filter that goes on my end of the whip seems to be working well. And now since I can get dryer air. There is less moisture in my low pressure system. Just using 10 to 5 micron water separator higher than the compressor, and than going into a desiccant filter.
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Update!
Hi All,
I added another pmv in my loop to see if I can condense more water out before it reaches the Alpha filter. I still need to set the pressure point once the thread sealer cures.
By next weekend I should have the pressure point set and hopefully catch some water as I have a cylinder almost at 3000 psi that needs topping up. ;D
Once my testing is done I think I will remote mount the pmv and Alpha filter because I don't like how everything is hanging of the original Shoebox outlet. The new pmv has mounting holes that will be a big help.
Thanks,
Taso
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Update!
Hi All,
I added another pmv in my loop to see if I can condense more water out before it reaches the Alpha filter. I still need to set the pressure point once the thread sealer cures.
By next weekend I should have the pressure point set and hopefully catch some water as I have a cylinder almost at 3000 psi that needs topping up. ;D
Once my testing is done I think I will remote mount the pmv and Alpha filter because I don't like how everything is hanging of the original Shoebox outlet. The new pmv has mounting holes that will be a big help.
Thanks,
Taso
Taso what kind of thread seller do you use? I have a couple small leaks and need something other than T-Tape.
Thanks Bill C!
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Bill,
I use Vibra-Tite 444 threadsealer and their 612 primer:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004UMOXLG/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004UMOXLG/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004UMP7NO/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004UMP7NO/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Thanks,
Taso
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Bill,
I use Vibra-Tite 444 threadsealer and their 612 primer:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004UMOXLG/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004UMOXLG/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004UMP7NO/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004UMP7NO/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Thanks,
Taso
Thanks Taso!
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Taso are you losing CFM/PSI with all those filters that the air gotta go thru?
I'm trying to find out if 14mins is avg time. To top up a 330cc ( 20ci ) tank from 100 to 200 bar?
I normally only have 3 filters setup, but I brought down my larger 8 gal compressor. That normally in the garage and has a 4th filter on it.
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Robert,
I'm positive all my filters have some restriction but I am regulating the output pressure to the Shoebox at about 90 psi anyway. The membrane drier has a flow rate of 0.353 cfm. So that is the limiting component in my air supply. It's the best for my needs.
Off the top of my head, I think my compressor kicks on at 95 psi and shuts off at 125 psi. It has a flow rate of 1.10 cfm @ 90 psi.
I removed the output regulator and connected the yellow hose with a quick disconnect on the end. The first regulator is set at 140 psi to protect the first 3 filters. The regulator before the membrane drier is set to 120 psi to protect it. Then the last regulator is set to 90 psi to feed the Shoebox.
There is a purge on the membrane drier that is a constant leak to discharge the removed moisture of .088 cfm. The Shoebox uses < .2 cfm. So I only need < .288 cfm from the compressor to run my setup. The compressor supplies almost 4 times what I need.
I hope that answered your questions. If not, let me know and I will clarify.
Thanks,
Taso
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Adding plumbing and filters after the Shoebox won't lead to any loss in flow rate through the compressor. As Tsao was indicating, that is fully defined by the pressure and temperature (together yielding the density) of the air charge, as the pump will run at at constant speed regardless of the pressure on the output side (I have verified this).
What the plumbing and filters will do is increase the amount of air that needs to be compressed in order to get air into your tank - and all of it will be vented to the atmosphere when done (or will likely leak out over time) and thus could be viewed as "wasted run time" in filling our tanks.
That is why I do all my drying before the air enters the Shoebox - all I "waste" is the air in the fill whip, and I use that to purge the base of the Shoebox after pumping by always venting from the Shoebox itself rather than the fill whip (something that I think is good for the Shoebox too).
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Robert,
I'm positive all my filters have some restriction but I am regulating the output pressure to the Shoebox at about 90 psi anyway. The membrane drier has a flow rate of 0.353 cfm. So that is the limiting component in my air supply. It's the best for my needs.
Off the top of my head, I think my compressor kicks on at 95 psi and shuts off at 125 psi. It has a flow rate of 1.10 cfm @ 90 psi.
I removed the output regulator and connected the yellow hose with a quick disconnect on the end. The first regulator is set at 140 psi to protect the first 3 filters. The regulator before the membrane drier is set to 120 psi to protect it. Then the last regulator is set to 90 psi to feed the Shoebox.
There is a purge on the membrane drier that is a constant leak to discharge the removed moisture of .088 cfm. The Shoebox uses < .2 cfm. So I only need < .288 cfm from the compressor to run my setup. The compressor supplies almost 4 times what I need.
I hope that answered your questions. If not, let me know and I will clarify.
Thanks,
Taso
Thanks I did a test. Tried my little 1.5 HP 2 gal compressor. That I got tuned that kicks on at 90 PSI, takes like 20 seconds to fill to 120 and runs for 3 mins 40 seconds before it kicks back on again. That did 14mins 44 seconds to fill the same tube from 100 BAR to 200 BAR. Compressor only kicked on 4 times.
So the 2HP and 8 GAL compressor isn't really that much better. So back to the garage it will go. Only nice thing about that, it didn't kick on as much.
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Robert,
You could always add a portable 5 gallon tank to your system. I tried this but don't know if it was beneficial. You will have more time before the compressor kicks back on but it will run longer to fill the additional 5 gallons.
My concern with my CAT compressor is that if the compressor runs longer than designed it could overheat the pump heads. Also the hotter pump head will create hotter air.
I could measure the compressed air temp over a half hour both ways. I didn't feel like doing that so I removed the 5 gallon tank from the loop and abandoned the idea. ::)
Taso
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Robert,
You could always add a portable 5 gallon tank to your system. I tried this but don't know if it was beneficial. You will have more time before the compressor kicks back on but it will run longer to fill the additional 5 gallons.
My concern with my CAT compressor is that if the compressor runs longer than designed it could overheat the pump heads. Also the hotter pump head will create hotter air.
I could measure the compressed air temp over a half hour both ways. I didn't feel like doing that so I removed the 5 gallon tank from the loop and abandoned the idea. ::)
Taso
That was my concern. The smaller quieter compressor would heat up more, and create condensation. Because the short times I ran these compressors, not water in the separators. But I know when I ran this little compressor for 9 hours, It spit out water at the shoebox ( before I had all these water separators )
Than again I'm not concerned about breaking a 25$ compressor, running it too long.
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Hi All,
Today I was researching activated alumina desiccant for another member who it trying to dry a Yong Heng compressor output. I was also interested on how it would handle oil contamination.
So after more reading it looks like if activated alumina gets contaminated with oil it stops absorbing moisture.
Molecular sieve will also absorb oil and become ineffective at absorbing water. This was a bummer.
Here is an excerpt from response #6 on this web page:
https://www.scubaboard.com/community/threads/13x-molecular-sieve-storage-life.320918/ (https://www.scubaboard.com/community/threads/13x-molecular-sieve-storage-life.320918/)
However here’s the kicker. I would only recommend this regeneration of molecular sieve process when using oil-free or oil-less compressors.
The reason is quite straightforward. Oil free and oil-less compressors only produce pure distilled water nothing else during the compression process. So the chemical is not contaminated.
Oil lubricated compressor including the Bauer Mariner 3 stage produce imulsified oil and water and your unit uses splash lubrication on the lower stages but oil vapour on the upper. It is this oil vapour “carry over” that degrades the molecular sieve rendering is pretty useless for regeneration.
The oil vapour in essence “coats” the external surface of each of the molecular sieve spheres with a thin oil film, this effectively blocks that bit of the filter matrix so the dirty wet gas has to find a clean "ball" of chemical to first strip the oil film out of the gas stream before the next clean chemical in the flow chain can get to work on stripping the water vapour.
By regenerating the chemical you fail to remove the oil film and in effect “cook” it to the chemical matrix. When you replace the chemical back in the filter tower on the next fill this “bond” is broken due to pressure and vapour pressure and all this oil &^^& re enters back into the gas stream. In effect a double dose of trouble for the secondary filter tower to deal with. Iain Middlebrook
I always thought that oils would build up in molecular sieve and could not be removed by heat regeneration. I hoped I was wrong.
But today's confirmation that the oil builds up and cannot be removed was disappointing.
So, if you have any oil in your system, pretty much all the desiccants discussed are one use only and not renewable.
The Shoebox is either using lithium grease, silicone oil or I had considered krytox/ultimox. I don't know if that will make a difference but I highly doubt it.
Oh well.
Taso
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FWIW: I'm not seeing oil reach my "little gold" filter, which has cotton before some zeolite. It is only 3" away from output of the SB. I do have an aftermarket bleed between the output and this filter.
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The replaceable filters for bauer and what not have the ac after the ms. Oily vapor doesnt seem to be catastrophic but more so a reason to replace instead of regenerate the media.
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Guys,
Some more info, that may help,
I thought, I would give an update of my F-10 SB/supply air compressor set up, the way I have this set up is,
main air compressor set at 150 psi output, thru 100' of air line, to 3- Wilkerson F-16-04 air filters, (got 6 total for $40).
I modified 2 of these filters via getting a fitting that fits the output hole, in this brass fitting I Drilled and tapped a 1/8" push on hose fitting,
then a section of the correct size of clear hosing was pushed on and a compressed fuel line filter was fitted into the end of the hose,
this hose length is long enough to reach/fit to the bottom of each of the bowls.
This makes the compressed air (from supply compressor) travel towards the bottom going thru more filter material,
before going to the next filter for the same process in the last filters.
In the first 2 filters, I am running the Blue 1-2 mm dissecant and the last ones is using a 50/50 mix of 13x -1/2 mm beads and Blue beads,
with the Wilkerson .5 filter out to the SB F-10 compressor.
I just checked these filters, the 1st filter has about a 1/4" layer of top Blue beads that have changed to a lighter color,
(I am color blind, so I can't see what color it is, will have to confirm with the better half),
there is no change in the second filter or the last one that is a 50/50 mix.
I have just filled 2- 4500 CF 45 min tanks to 3000 psi, each was approx 8 hrs of fill time, with a 1/2 hr cool down time each 4 hr run time etc.
I have stood up each tank on the valve end after compressing air, let these tanks set over night and check for any water moisture etc,
I have remove the tank valves and cut off the water trap pipe, milled off a few thousands above the valve end and beveled the ends.
So far there has NOT been any moisture seen or felt, so IMHO, I have a good set up for removing moisture when compressing.
I do disconnect the QD fitting and connect them together to seal the filters etc, when not using the SB.
The only area of concern for me is, that when I drain the compressor thru the SB during a couple minute fan running cool down,
is I am getting a greyish colored oil residue from the SB output, which I believe to be the Silicone oil from the automatic oilers of the F-10.
I sure hope, I am not getting this silicone oil into my main supply 4500 air tanks, as I don't need any more Kabooms.
Any thoughts, suggestions, good or bad?
Tia,
Don
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Don,
I think it is all good. Here are a few specifics though:
1) No worries about "kabooms", even if oil is getting through. Silicone oil won't combust in that environment, let alone explode . . .
2) I too get a little oil on venting. Can't be helped as it is a product of lubrication - some gets through. If you think too much is coming out in each venting event, simply vent more often to reduce the accumulation (since venting blows it out before it can get anywhere). And keep venting from the Shoebox.
2) I think your air is plenty dry, but to be a bit technical about it, testing to 3000 psi is not going to tell you for sure that you have no water vapor condensing in the tank - air at 4500 psi holds less water vapor than air at 3000 psi, so it could condense out at the higher pressure (if it was there to that, and I doubt it is there with the filter set up you describe). That said, one fill won't tell you much - if your filters are doing the minimum that they are rated for the most water you would get from one fill would be a few drops, which you probably would not even find as it would likely be spread out over the full surface of the inside of the tank. I checked by removing the valve and visually inspecting and swabbing the inside of the tank after filling a total of about 350 cubic air through the tank and found nothing (and I am just using silica gel - 1.5 pounds of it in the big filter - and no molecular sieve).
So I think you are doing great. And I love the deal on the filters! Just dry out the first one often and all will be great!
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Hi Don,
I finally found the thread on the black silicone oil coming out of a Shoebox I was looking for.
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130000.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=130000.0)
Tom Kay recommended going back to lithium grease to have less lubricant blow by. I think the black color was oring and guide wear or some interaction with the aluminum parts? I don't know but I've seen a similar black interaction with mothers aluminum polish on aluminum. Maybe the silicone the op was using had some additive that reacted with the aluminum or surface aluminum oxide?
On my next rebuild I think I'm going to remove the silicone oilers and go with ultimox.
For now I have been adding krytox oil to my wicks every time I run the Shoebox.
I'm gonna top off a 30 minute cylinder to 4500 psi tonight. I'll keep an eye on my moisture indicator disk "...because it's the only way to be sure." ;D
Taso
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I topped off the 30 minute cylinder last night. The moisture indicator disk after the 3600 psi pmv and before the Alpha filter registered 20% relative humidity.
Pink indicates the moisture level and blue is the unaffected level.
https://www.augustindustries.com/moisture-indicator-disk-kit-mois.asp?bc=no (https://www.augustindustries.com/moisture-indicator-disk-kit-mois.asp?bc=no)
I don't know what that figures out in absolute humidity or parts per million but I think that's pretty good.
I am not positive but I think I the humidity is low enough to not really need the Alpha filter. I admit I have a hard time understanding the humidity amounts. The indicator disk is the ultimate decider. So if the experts can confirm my conclusions that would be great.
I've wanted to to better than just removing liquid water as that leaves the air saturated at about 100% humidity. Things in our everyday life rust without having direct contact with water. If I recall correctly corrosion stops at about 45% relative humidity. Obviously lower than that is better but that 45% is the minimum.
Thanks,
Taso
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Hello All,
Just a small update. I replaced the indicator disks with the lower resolution range "10, 20 and 30%" ones from August Industries about 3 months ago.
https://www.augustindustries.com/product/moisture-indicator-disk-2/ (https://www.augustindustries.com/product/moisture-indicator-disk-2/)
I have charged up 3 x 30 minute scba tanks and the new disks, one before the Alpha filter and one directly after it, are registering 10% relative humidity. I have attached pictures of both indicators. Lavender indicates humidity.
So, I guess my journey is done. I don't know any other ways to remove more moisture and then how to show measurable results cheaply. I think I ended up with a very good, low maintenance, moisture removal system.
I learned a lot with my trials and errors. I think I documented my journey pretty well and I hope the information will be useful to All. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me.
Thank you for your patience because this took a lot longer to complete due to my car accident on 03/2017.
Taso
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Hello All,
I finally got around to creating a remote mounting solution for the plumbing after the Shoebox. I wanted to take the weight and vibrations off the 1/8 npt threads of the vertical cylinder block, I'm not sure of the proper name of the part. There is now a high pressure swivel and a microbore hose that feed the new high pressure drying setup.
I have attached pictures of the new high pressure air drying configuration. The electronic pressure cut off switch was removed from the cylinder block plumbing and is in the new group now. I do need to extend it's wires but I will do that when I move everything to the garage and mount the remote group.
I did implement Mr. Sterne's suggestion to up the pressure maintaining valve setpoint to higher that the final fill pressure. The Shoebox compressor is rated to 5000 psi so that is where I set the pmv to. Everything before the pmv will be pressurized to 5000 psi. There is a bleed off drain at a drip leg to remove accumulated moisture.
On the 2 outputs of the pmv I have installed the pressure cutoff switch and the feed to the cylinder I am filling. The pressure cutoff switch is set to 4500 psi. Before the output quick disconnect foster fitting I installed a new, one way, check valve as a safety measure. This is so that when the cutoff stops the compressor, the pressure in the bottle doesn't bleed back through the compressor. Plus I don't want to lose the compressed air in the cylinder that took hours to compress in case of a failure upstream. There is another drip leg and bleed/drain off this branch as well.
When I first changed to the new 5000 psi pmv setpoint I did have some pressure, ~300 psi, bleed over to the 4500 psi side. At first I was concerned. But then after I thought about it I realize that this is such a small volume of higher pressure air. The test setup was basically the air volume in the Shoebox, 2 microbore hoses and the pmv, check valve and plumbing. If a carbon fiber cylinder was connected this small amount of 5000 psi bled air would be unnoticeable, so I think it is safe to disregard.
Since I was not able to detect moisture in the previous setup with the moisture indicators before and after the Alpha filter, I did not include the moisture indicators or the Alpha filter in this configuration. The new 5000 psi setpoint of the pmv should wring out more moisture than the previous 4000 psi setpoint.
I am filling a cylinder as I type and everything is going good. No leaks with the soapy water check.
I think this is how the setup will stay. Unless I read about a new idea to try out. ;D
Thank you to everyone that followed along and for all your help and suggestions!
Taso
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Interesting setup Taso, looking forward to hearing your impressions once you’ve had time to run this new configuration for awhile!
I went bit overboard on my (pre-ShoeBox) filtration myself, but I have not invested in any for high-pressure side... yet ;D
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Thanks Dave!
So far I've filled one 30 minute scba tank from 1700 to 4500 psi and a 2nd 30 minute scba tank from 3900 to 4500 psi. So far so good. I started to try to fill a Great White tank I recently bought from empty. The motor was hot (normal hot) and I was tired so I figured I'll leave it for tomorrow.
I think I'm going to add a bigger fan on the back of the case to cool the compression cylinders and make a cowl or something to direct the air out through the motor. The motor is vented front and back so I just need to seal the back of the Shoebox to the front of the motor. I'm hoping this will help in cooling the motor as well.
The new high side system fills up a lot quicker now from empty. It's mostly because the Alpha filter is gone and I think I had a small leak or two before. I had so many plumbing connections and I think I was also leaking out the front cylinder block 1/8 npt connection. The weight of the previous high side setup would loosen and rotate that connection over time. I couldn't tighten it without taking it all apart because the pressure switch was also mounted there. It all needed to be re-done.
As for better moisture removal? I didn't have the resolution in the indicator disks to tell how much below 10% humidity the previous setup performed. Since the pmv is set 1000 psi higher, theoretically the compressed air should be drier than the previous setup.
My Shoebox is a factory upgraded Max. I run it at around 85 psi to keep stress and temperatures down, or at least I hope the lower pressure helps. Heat is bad mkay? ;D
Since I have multiple scba cylinders I'm not in any hurry to fill.
Let me know if you have any more questions and I will be happy to answer.
Thanks,
Taso