N-Forcer - Moeller Gas Springs

[gene_sc]

Does anyone have any information on what gas spring from N-FORCER or Moeller has been tested in the Hatsan 125's?

[fortyshooter]

Don't quite know how to answer this....but there was once someone here that was testing those units in the 125,but there were some technical issues.

[Paul68]

I believe the N-Forcer MF19-125 is the model used in the 125 every time I've seen it used.

I believe the N-forcer yellow is considered by most to have a little too much force at 260 Lbs. Most of this is from memory, but I think a Force around 220-240lbs was considered the max before cocking effort and durability issues arise.

The N-Forcer Red seems to have about the same force as the Crosman gas pistons that are being installed in the 125's from Pyramyd.

http://www.n-forcer.com/content/pdf/Mini.pdf

The Moeller M90-TBM Yellow or Red might be a good compromise. You can also order their gas springs charged to the desired force.

http://www.moellerpunch.com/PDF/Moeller%20Nitrogen%20Gas%20Cylinders.pdf

I have yet to actually try any of them myself, but once time allows I plan on some experimenting eventually.

[fortyshooter]

If a setup can be found that equals or surpasses the factory spring power,that would be a great modification. I don't think the Crosman unit is there yet.

[z28rod]

tarheal and mikey have all the info. but i guiess they got the boot.

[Paul68]

tarheal and mikey have all the info. but i guiess they got the boot.

These conversions have been done for years.

[AirHunter4Ever]

These conversions have been done for years.

Paul,

What are the links to the websites showing the conversions to Moeller and N-Forcer gas rams?

I have tried Googling, but all of the links lead back to GTA and the information that Mike 4888blues and Tarheel posted here on the forum.

Can you please supply links to the sources of information you mentioned ?

Thanks !

[fortyshooter]

Interesting..

[AirHunter4Ever]

I have been in touch recently with both of those guys via e-mail.

They have continued with their testing and experimentation, in spite of being removed from GTA.

Their performance numbers are far surpassing the factory numbers and even the numbers that Gene posted when he tested JOAO's gas ram conversion kit.  Chrony test results showed 33.2 to 34.8 fpe, depending on caliber, and that is very impressive !

I believe they are going to manufacture and either perform conversions or sell conversion kits in the near future.

I have tried to find out which gas ram units they are using, but haven't been told anything.

Frankly, I think it's because I mentioned that I am a GTA member in my first e-mail to them.

Does anyone else have any more information ?

[WHITEFANG]

Those guys were up on the rams and had good info. Seems that they stired the pot on the rams and hadothers followed suit.
Personally I have played with the conversions that WERE SOLD IN THESE GUNS. 1 WAS PUT IN A 125 TH. 25. THE CONVERSIONS RAMS DO SMOOTH OUT THE GUNS BUT ARE  LOW ON THE FPS. 750 FPS IN A25. 890-900 IN. 22. TRIED THE 135. 22 AND THE SAME FPS AS THE SAME 125.
I DO NOT RECOMMEND ANYONE THAT DOES NOT HAVE EXPERIENCE  IN THESE  GUNS  ATTEMPT THIS.

[Paul68]

Well, Gene simply asked which rams were used and hopefully I got em right, but since once again it seems there is some misconception that this is some pioneering or innovative work that could only be found through former members, I'll throw out two links to conversions that have been around far longer than either Mike or Tarheel's efforts. There are more, but the point should be clear.

http://www.airgunforum.ca/forums/topic23031.html

http://www.airguns.com.ar/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3468

[fortyshooter]

That picture of using the lathe as a spring compressor was great! I think I have one of those.

[WHITEFANG]

Paul:
I don't  think there were any harm in THE  mentioning of the past members personally. JMO. 
RAMS HAVE BEEN OUT FOR A LONG TIME. POWER AND FPS HAS BEEN THE ULTIMATE GOAL FOR MANY.
LOOK AT THE MAKERS OF SPRING KITS. LOOK AT ALL THE TRIGGER ASSEMBLES OFFERED.
ANYBODY THAT HAS THIS AS  hobby no different than the POWDER BURNERS.  MORE IS BETTER!
THE MAIN THING IN ANY GUN, CAUTION MUST  BE USED IN MAKING MODS.  THESE AIR RIFLES @ 900-1000FPS ARE NO TOY!!!
ANYONE THAT Takes on any mod is accepting the liability.

[AirHunter4Ever]

Well, Gene simply asked which rams were used and hopefully I got em right, but since once again it seems there is some misconception that this is some pioneering or innovative work that could only be found through former members, I'll throw out two links to conversions that have been around far longer than either Mike or Tarheel's efforts. There are more, but the point should be clear.

http://www.airgunforum.ca/forums/topic23031.html

http://www.airguns.com.ar/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3468

According to that Canadian thread they were only generating 21.5 fpe in a Hatsan 125. Pretty wimpy, if you ask me. Mike and Tarheel are getting 55 - 60% more power than that. Sure, the Canadian thread pre-dates them, but their results far eclipse those in the thread.

Now, the Argentinian thread is interesting as it pegs the Air Venturi gas ram's pressure at 157 bar, a useful reference. They don't mention velocity, but they were talking about using both Air Venturi and Brazilian gas rams ( likely the ones from JOAO's kits ). All of their gas rams are lower pressure - Certainly lower than 180 bar.

Since GTA is English only . . . I used a translator program to  translate the whole thread from the Argentinian thread, so all can read it . . .

QUOTE:




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Esteban Notapor »Mon June 13, 2011 11:04 a.m.
As you see the gas ram it comes with the coupling-guide (makes Hugo) seen in the picture in white.
The rear coupling has a cavity that allows the housing of the rear cap of the rifle and also serves to center the gas ram. Image
You need a decompressor spring to do the job.
Image
This photo shows clearly the difference between the gas precompression ram (about 3-4 mm) and the original spring (about 6 cm), given the difference in length between the two. As a final note, I commented that this does not trigger Hatsan 125 Quattro, too, this gas ram with these couplings used on any 125.
Furthermore, this ram is the same gas that can be installed on other models Hatsan large (135, 150 and 155) and models like the Stoeger X50, Bam 22, Gamo 1250, the only thing that changes is the feedback.
Greetings.
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Notapor cease pcp »Mon June 13, 2011 7:53 pm
As the day THE DREAM OF MAN held by Hughie
Hacete some groups with those rats or a mammoth.
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cease pcp
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Notapor surfista3046 »Wed June 15, 2011 10:16 pm
High post!! well my respects there and some who have forgotten who threw mahely always, never expect anything. User avatar
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Notapor Kurupi »Sat June 18, 2011 9:08 pm
Very good laburo.
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surfista3046 wrote some who have forgotten who threw mahely always, never expect anything. More line.
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Notapor edgardmack »Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:40 a.m.
Anyone have the data to buy the gas spring ram?
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surfista3046 wrote: High post!! well my respects there and some who have forgotten who threw mahely always, never expect anything. lucasp
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surfista3046 wrote: High post!! well my respects there and some who have forgotten who threw mahely always, never expect anything. Esteban Notapor »Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:20 pm
The gas ram rifles for "big" as the H125 and H 135, among others, are loaded with 85 kg (some Hugo made them pay 80 and 75 kg/cm2), but most of which were installed are 85 kg. and going well.
The gas ram sold in Brazil for 125 or 135 Hatsan come in two sizes, 70 and 75 kg, except for the Magtech that are 88 kg (large), but for what I have understood, the next the will reduce to 80 kg.
I do not know what the load pressure of the Air Venturi, but I think that 157 kg/cm2 is an exaggeration. Perhaps that is the maximum pressure that lifts the gas ram rifle mounted. The 85 kg. gas from the ram are made here, are more or less at these pressures, but with the rifle is loaded.
The Crosman Nitro Piston also come with pressures of about 75-80 kg. (Large)
Greetings.
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Re:Notapor Pajaroloco »Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:58 a.m.
Thanks for such a prompt response, according to the Brazilian forum, the relationship is this:
to a 51.2 kg spring is necessary to take pressure 100bar
for a spring NEED TO 40.0 kg is 78 bar pressure have
for a spring of 60.0 kg and 117 bar ter NEED TO pressão
to a 80.0 kg spring 156 is necessary to have bar pressure,
for a spring 85, spring kg would be 166 bar pressure.
With so in my case and I spend a few bars, because one is 180 by the other 175-b, I have to go to 140-b., I see, is that if low spring pressure, shooting will be much more stable and as the power of the camera 125 is Hatsan of 79.3 cm3 and the 135 is 84.8 cm 3 and have enough spring air with a not so strong. http://i51.tinypic.com/2ds0a6f.jpg
I pass this link you can see the dimensions of the compression chambers of various rifles.
a greeting
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edgardmack wrote: anyone have information on where to buy the gas spring ram?
    www.airgunslp.com.ar
Communicate with Hugo Jordan on page you have the phone.
Greetings.
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Re:Notapor Pajaroloco »Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:53 pm
Hi all, I presented a little higher, my question to Stephen, is if I can pass information from gas ram, measures of the same forums looking more or less I have a slight idea, but the pressure to which they are charged , bars or kg which is, that I no longer know, as here in Spain, there is, and I am looking for gas springs for testing in my Hatsan 135 sas-4, and so far I have not found an acceptable . I sent an email to Hugh Jordan, who told me that the pressure was 80 bars, but they sold the Pyramyd Air (now or will you carry the rifle and I'll ride them or not you sell it loose) for Gamo, the Air Venturi Gas Spring Conversion, is loaded at 157 bars, be if we all give me some light.
thanks
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END QUOTE:

Those two threads were interesting, but somewhat outdated. I hope there are more current threads, but as I posted before, the most recent point back to GTA.

[Paul68]

NVMND. 

[WHITEFANG]

Great info! I willhave to follow up on this. The conversions offer as i said tame the guns down but are not obtaining the power that a jacked up spring KIT. Nothing is offered to exceed the springs. Everything offered is what i call just in the selling not atempting to push the maximum or close to what the guns can handle without over doing it

[Paul68]

That picture of using the lathe as a spring compressor was great! I think I have one of those.

Yup. I've been trying to make piston seal adapters with limited success for the last week, and pretty much have reached the conclusion that it's time for me to find a lathe as well. Just too much I could do with one now not to get one..

[WHITEFANG]

Yes Hatsan  is limited for the end user and home tuner in parts. Almost not worth the money when there are plenty of other guns other that offer power and parts just like an RWS,  UNLIMITED POWER SORCES  AND A GREAT GUN WITH MANY CAPABILITYS.

[Paul68]

Great info! I willhave to follow up on this. The conversions offer as i said tame the guns down but are not obtaining the power that a jacked up spring KIT. Nothing is offered to exceed the springs. Everything offered is what i call just in the selling not atempting to push the maximum or close to what the guns can handle without over doing it

If Gene is looking to do some work in this area, I'll simply prefer to wait for his results should he ever make them known since he has the experience and knowledge to lend credence to his results. I can go into my garage and make any one of my magnums push 30+ FPE easy. That's not the hard part.

[WHITEFANG]

Well he has the connection and ability.