N-Forcer - Moeller Gas Springs

[z28rod]

Paul mellow out man....Whats the big secret to telling how you got a few springer's over 30 ft lbs. Should be able to tell use so we can all give it a go. I think your being to carefull, these guys know what they are doing especially the wolfman.

[Paul68]

Gene simply wanted to know which gas springs have been used. I tried to answer. Then suddenly, yet another gas spring thread gets ridiculous.

I never said in any way shape or form that I was doing conversions of any kind. Thus, nothing for me to "share", explain ect.


 The second a thread about these comes up, it's as if someone started bleeding in a shark tank. Reason and sanity goes out the window.

[supertech77]

gene, i found that the 180bar works OK,but will stretch the cocking arm over time and it won't catch the seer.also that the np that mike and Dave are using were the moeller 180 bar and they achieved the power they were looking for ,but that the shot cycle was too harsh,so they took out some pressure and believed to be 170bar now and only lost a small amount of fps and is much smoother ,the np in my talon was originally installed by itpro,and he grind-ed the name off it,only  thing left was 180bar made in Sweden,i have since reinstalled that np and spaced it properly to get 3/8 tention on the piston when installed,as i said the cocking arm has stretched 5000 or so shots now. and i had to re bend it but once it stretch i kept having to bend it back till finally i took out some gas,now it is shooting 28.3gr eunjins over the crony i just bought from {johnnyreb}that's another story},at 700 fps {average} , and has not stretched again yet .i hope the info is helpful for you oh and i am using a [JM 28mm red seal ].its not what it use to be for sure but it does alright,easier to cock,for sure now.good luck with your project,keep us posted.

[z28rod]

Supertech excellent post, gas ram conversions are the way to go for sure.

[AirHunter4Ever]

I have since reinstalled that np and spaced it properly to get 3/8 tension on the piston when installed.

So, you re-installed with 3/8" of pre-load ?

How much pre-load did it originally have ?

Where is the guy you called "ITPRO" ?  I'd like to contact him and ask him some questions, is he a GTA Member ?

Thanks !

[supertech77]

his name is frank and i think he too was band from gta,and origanally it had about 3/4 of a inch,and had some washer's welded on the rod,and the weld came undone and it got real noisy inside like a dish sound breaking each time i would shoot it,so i took it apart myself and fixed it the way i thought it would get its max volume,and even tried it with np in tube but that did not work for long till the plastic end plug started to deform from being pushed against the housing pins,even bent the 1st pin, i found when i took it apart again and turned np around and lasted 5k shots or so till it would not cock after it hit the garage floor cocking arm first,while trying to crony it for the 1st time,and from that point , it would not catch the seer,and the pellet hit the steel rod on the crony {and well that is why i now own a crony}and is a story i will save for another time,, as i explained in last post,with what i did from there.i harbor no hard feelings toward itpro at all.he did at the time what he thought would work,i look at it as he got me started playing with the np.now i got the talon,yep its not as strong as before,but that's OK,i got a wfh too now in 22cal,some day if i need/want too i may convert it,but it is dead nut accurate with the 14.3 at 950 fps now,and i got the r.a.m with the talon spring hitting 725fps with 25.4gr beeman,s( smooth as butter shot cycle on all 3 magnum air guns},i been that power hungry air gunner,and i learned that smooth and accurate and fun to shoot is far better than UN controlled power,IMO,i would not hesitate to grab any of those 3 guns to hunt with cause i know i can hit where i point it on all 3 and with the fpe there at not many small to medium game it couldn't drop with in 40yards,i also believe that with his knowledge and experience and contacts,if anyone could make one of these np air magnums do a 1kfps with 20+ gr pellets smoothly and accurately it would be gene.IMO,maybe bob,or Loyd,orEd ,or MM,too.but at what cost?   

[supertech77]

I have since reinstalled that np and spaced it properly to get 3/8 tension on the piston when installed.

So, you re-installed with 3/8" of pre-load ?

How much pre-load did it originally have ?

Where is the guy you called "ITPRO" ?  I'd like to contact him and ask him some questions, is he a GTA Member ?

Thanks !

  he had a post in china gate a long time back 7months on the tf-87 np conversion

[AirHunter4Ever]

his name is frank and i think he too was banned from gta

So, Itpro, Mike4888blues, and Tarheel were all working with high-power gas ram conversions and all three of them were banned from GTA, yet people are still using their data to continue doing the same thing. Am I missing something here ?

I really don't understand why there is so much secrecy about projects like these and folks get so uptight when questions are asked about them. I think that gas rams will eventually replace springs in the future.

[rsterne]

Part of the problem, IMO, was the lack of "hard data" at the time, using how far a pellet would penetrate things, and observations about how hard it would knock things over, instead of Chrony numbers.... Plus, they wanted to be quite secretive about what they were doing to get the results they claimed, and didn't really appreciate questions about the shooting characteristics.... Now I'm not saying they didn't do what they claimed, but with no hard numbers, and no way for others to duplicate their results.... it kind of became a gong show.... It's really too bad, because some good things went down the tube, lost with all the hype....

Bob

[WHITEFANG]

?****? The problem is fiction vs  true facts. Hum!! Is all that is reported true? Do they even have a chrony?  is this a seat of  pants report? A piston slamming will make a gun feel like power.  A overlubed  gun will throw out FPS!
SO IT IS UP TO YOU TO SORT OUT THE FICTION  AND THE TRUTH.
I HAVE THE TRUTH IN MY HANDS. DO YOU? I'M NOT A GENE OR BOB. No harm ment. THIS Is JUNK YARD AIR GUNS AND I DO HAVE A CHRONY.  AND YES I HAVE SHOT MY CHRONY!!  YOU GOT YOVE IT!!

[fortyshooter]

Can I add that popcorn eating smily face here.....cause I enjoy reading this drama about the gas ram conversions and the secret society that surrounds them!   

[WHITEFANG]

No one WILL believe me anyway. Rams have been A HOT TOPIC ON THIS TURKEY SITE FOR A WHILE AND IT IS UNDERNEATH EVERYONES EYES. PUFF!! MAGIC!!
NO DIFFERENT THAN ONE WHO DESIRES SPEED. JUST HOW FAR ARE YOU WILLING TO GO? THE SIMPLY THINGS ARE ALWAYS OVERLOOKED. what's a tenth of a second worth $$ wise or 20- 50 FPS? THAT'S WHY WE HAVE UNDERDOGS  IN THIS WORLD. JUST SIMPLE PEOPLE WITH SIMPLE WAYS!!

[fortyshooter]

I like the simple way!    One day,when one of my air guns goes sickly,I will dig in and see what makes it tick.
For years,I build and tune my own engines,and will learn how to tune an air gun as well.
But don't throw the old spring gun in the hopper yet..they still get the job done. 
As with one of my Mustangs,I keep it old school with a carb,engine driven cooling fan,and no electric fuel systems,but still manage
to have a nice quick RELIABLE 550 HP  10 second crusier. Any more and it would be a headache!

[WHITEFANG]

Old school is me. Old drag boat racer,  drag car and 4x4 mudder.  I will not put the spring down ever. Springs are cheap and simple.

FANG

[Paul68]

Can I add that popcorn eating smily face here.....cause I enjoy reading this drama about the gas ram conversions and the secret society that surrounds them!   

x10

[gene_sc]

This is the sort of hard data that is usefull. Thanks for coming fouth with it. Actual hands on and testing like you have done proves there is a limit to the original parts before fatigue sets in.

Thanks
Gene

gene, i found that the 180bar works OK,but will stretch the cocking arm over time and it won't catch the seer.also that the np that mike and Dave are using were the moeller 180 bar and they achieved the power they were looking for ,but that the shot cycle was too harsh,so they took out some pressure and believed to be 170bar now and only lost a small amount of fps and is much smoother ,the np in my talon was originally installed by itpro,and he grind-ed the name off it,only  thing left was 180bar made in Sweden,i have since reinstalled that np and spaced it properly to get 3/8 tention on the piston when installed,as i said the cocking arm has stretched 5000 or so shots now. and i had to re bend it but once it stretch i kept having to bend it back till finally i took out some gas,now it is shooting 28.3gr eunjins over the crony i just bought from {johnnyreb}that's another story},at 700 fps {average} , and has not stretched again yet .i hope the info is helpful for you oh and i am using a [JM 28mm red seal ].its not what it use to be for sure but it does alright,easier to cock,for sure now.good luck with your project,keep us posted.

smoother ,the np in my talon was originally installed by itpro,and he grind-ed the name off it,only  thing left was 180bar made in Sweden,i have since reinstalled that np and spaced it properly to get 3/8 tention on the piston when installed,as i said the cocking arm has stretched 5000 or so shots now. and i had to re bend it but once it stretch i kept having to bend it back till finally i took out some gas,now it is shooting 28.3gr eunjins over the crony i just bought from {johnnyreb}that's another story},at 700 fps {average} , and has not stretched again yet .i hope the info is helpful for you oh and i am using a [JM 28mm red seal ].its not what it use to be for sure but it does alright,easier to cock,for sure now.good luck with your project,keep us posted.
[/quote]

[gene_sc]

Your comments here AG4E are not promoting this post. I think you have two strikes against you already for these kind of posts. Non productive and agitating. Back Off.

Gene

his name is frank and i think he too was banned from gta

So, Itpro, Mike4888blues, and Tarheel were all working with high-power gas ram conversions and all three of them were banned from GTA, yet people are still using their data to continue doing the same thing. Am I missing something here ?

I really don't understand why there is so much secrecy about projects like these and folks get so uptight when questions are asked about them. I think that gas rams will eventually replace springs in the future.

[WHITEFANG]

The cocking rod is a weak point without any mod on the HATSAN with the bend for the SAS. The rod is easily bent by exerting to much pressure when cocking without a ram or heavy spring. Same design as the WFH.

[WHITEFANG]

In your picture of the gas ram in the piston. It is in the wrong direction. U dont want to hammer the gas end of ram every time you shoot the gun.

I am looking into the gas ram pressures at the moment. Talking with manufacturers about them. I may be getting a ram in soon for testing but only if it works out with dimensions and overall sweep of shaft. Let me be clear, I am not promoting them but merely trying to find out as much as I can and try and physically fit one to a Hatsan 125 for testing.

Gene

If GENE is working on the ram it will be interesting what he reports.
Here is one of the rams used for the HATSAN overseas.

Hey Gene!! Weren't the Air Ventrui rams backwards as well in the beginning? The thing on the one in the picture, which I assume you have seen before, has two seals and it appears that the ram tube is the piston as well.

[Scotchmo]

Hey Gene!! Weren't the Air Ventrui rams backwards as well in the beginning? The thing on the one in the picture, which I assume you have seen before, has two seals and it appears that the ram tube is the piston as well.

I've done a number of conversions and a scratch built rifle using gas springs. It seems like they should be installed piston rod forward. But in reality, I have found no real difference. I now mount them in whichever direction is the most convenient or most practical for a particular rifle. The weight of the body and the weight of the piston are not much different so total moving mass is about the same regardless of the direction.