Reality Check -Rogue-

[Rescue35]

I have a feeling that as soon as PA gets there hands on some they will run it through its paces and post about it in there blog. The customer reviews will follow. As for myself I don't trust people so I will wait until I get to see one for myself.

I appreciate the fact that Chip takes the time to post here. Even though he is on the clock for Crosman. It is nice to have some feedback from the company but I don't expect them to stick there neck out for my satisfaction. Would it be nice if they would post a couple of crony strings...seeing as it is a substantial investment, yes. I would also like to hunt coyote at night.

Once it is on the shelves there will be plenty of info about it coming out.

So you wont believe them when they say it gets 20 shots @ 150 fpe but you would believe them if they typed in a crony string. If they where going to lie they would lie to cover the lie.


ETA: Boha! First on page 3!

[Butcher45]

So you wont believe them when they say it gets 20 shots @ 150 fpe but you would believe them if they typed in a crony string. If they where going to lie they would lie to cover the lie.

No one said anything about any sort of lying but you Rescue.  Strangely enough, you are also the one who wrote "as for myself I don't trust anyone".

We want to see the 20 shots @150fpe testing results that lead to such a claim......slug weight (how light a slug do you need to get 20 shots?), the shot-string maximum fps variances, etc. 

[Butcher45]

It's official.  The 20 shots at 150fpe ain't happening.  Not even close!

If it sounds to good to be true.......

[rsterne]

Based on?.... I still haven't seen any shot strings, at least not posted on this Forum.... but I'd love to !!! .... Links?....

Bob

[Butcher45]

Based on?.... I still haven't seen any shot strings, at least not posted on this Forum.... but I'd love to !!! .... Links?....

Bob

 

Chip posted some numbers on another forum after claiming there were "some false recollections about the Rogue's performance claims".

Far from earth-shattering.......performance is about half of what Chip came on here and originally claimed when using lightweight slugs as one would want to use on low power. 

I wonder what the fps variance spreads are? 


Grain/Power StartPSI EndPSI FPE PSI/shot #shots
170 HIGH 3000 2600 195 173.0 3
170 MED 3000 2100 171 115.2 9
170 LOW 3000 1550 133 73.1 21

145 HIGH 3000 2700 181 122.3 3
145 MED 3000 2300 158 88.9 9
145 LOW 2700 1600 132 69.1 16

100 HIGH 3000 2400 147 110.2 6
100 MED 2600 1700 111 68.3 13
100 LOW 2200 1250 80 54.1 18

[lloyd-ss]

Butcher,
You are correct.  There is not a string of 20 shots at 150 fpe.

However I do see 9 shots at 171fpe and 21 shots at 133 fpe, both with 170 gn bullets.

[Jerry]

"As production guns begin rolling next month, you can expect customers will be posting their personal findings in regard to accuracy and velocity."

Well, not much of THAT happened.  At least not much good to say... 

[Nomadic Pirate]

Ho My God, this thread resurrected from the Dead

[grumpy]

I think its interesting to read what people said in the past versus now. And yes I am considering a Rogue.

[rsterne]

Thanks for the numbers.... In addition to Lloyds comment, I notice that on Low power with the 145 gr. there were 16 shots starting from only 2700 psi.... Using the average of 69 psi per shot, that would be at least 4 more shots from 3000 psi for a total of 20 shots at 132 FPE.... So it looks like the initial claim of 20 shots at 150 FPE is off by about 12%.... The Rogue can actually do 20-21 shots of 132-133 FPE on Low power....

Bob

[Jerry]

I think 21 shots at 133FPE is pretty good.  The other numbers are pretty good as well.  The problem is in the numbers not shown.  That 21 @ 133, is that average FPE or do the electronics deliver like we were led to believe and every shot is consistent?  The only chrony strings I've seen posted from customers showed decreasing power with every shot just like a rebounding hammer gun.  Accuracy overall and accuracy changing with remaining air pressure were not great either.

Chip claims early gremlins have been corrected, that's good.  And maybe, everyone who actually shared their experience with the gun was doing something wrong.  That still leaves darn little positive feedback and just about no complete report, even piecing together multiple small reports.

Most recently we have heard some anecdotes of fantastic offhand accuracy and impressive performance.  It would be nice to see that followed up with a complete set of chrony data and groups shot at measured distances.  That would help potential customers and would also be good for customers who have one and think their gun has a problem, they would have a point of comparison.

On the Yellow, Chip advised me that the PB customers (the target market) we're getting all their answers from Crosman regarding not just the gun but all the other things airgunners have questions about.  He also included a Twitter link and a Facebook link.  Really?  I'm not believing that these varmint hunters are really big on Twitter...  I suppose they might be emailing questions to Crosman but besides the gun itself, is Crosman the place to go for big bore airgun related questions?  I'd expect some reviews on PB sites and even questions on airgun sites about ammo, air tanks, fittings, etc.  Back in April, Chip expected customer reviews to be posted also...

Lot's of questions remain about this gun.  I was really hoping for a breakthrough performance by the electronics but there's little evidence for that. 

[lloyd-ss]

Jerry,
Yes, those performance numbers look pretty good to me, too.  I think the point is that it was supposed to be 20 shots at 150fpe, and it is not, therefore the Rogue and Crosman are a failure, or worse. I could shoot some fresh shot strings with the Rogue that I have (it was built in October 2011) but unless someone tells me why I should go to the trouble, I think it will be pointless. Jim Chapman is doing a couple of threads about the Rogue and I found it rather humorous that after he posted a couple of really nice targets, that the comments became silent.  Now we have a situation where Chip has posted energy data on another forum that doesn’t quite live up to early pre-production goals, and folks are all over it.  If I publish shot strings from my Rogue that look good, it will probably be ignored or discounted because, either,  1)I am posting the data, or 2)because the gun was cherry picked by Crosman or 3)something else.  But then as soon as a thread with negative info starts up, the same chatter will return.  So what’s the point?

Another example.  At the end of this thread

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,13783.msg187422.html#msg187422

is a video of me shooting a 7 shot 500fpe string from my  bench gun with a 31” .458 barrel and 380cc tank.  It uses the technology (valve and electronics) that the Rogue is based on.  Nary a peep in the comments.  Yes, it has a long barrel, and it has a special program, and the bullets are sized exactly right, and it took a couple of  tries to get that string, and it is not suitable as a production gun, but…. it is real.  I think I am correct in saying that most BB owners have their guns tuned in some manner to give them the performance they want. I did the same.

So my point is that talking about the Rogue and its technology and Crosman’s role in all this, seems to be like talking about politics or religion, and those are two subjects I avoid.  The reality check is not really about the Rogue.

[rsterne]

Well said, Lloyd....

Bob

[Doubletough]

On the Yellow, Chip advised me that the PB customers (the target market) we're getting all their answers from Crosman regarding not just the gun but all the other things airgunners have questions about.  He also included a Twitter link and a Facebook link.  Really?  I'm not believing that these varmint hunters are really big on Twitter...  I suppose they might be emailing questions to Crosman but besides the gun itself, is Crosman the place to go for big bore airgun related questions?  I'd expect some reviews on PB sites and even questions on airgun sites about ammo, air tanks, fittings, etc.  Back in April, Chip expected customer reviews to be posted also...

Lot's of questions remain about this gun.  I was really hoping for a breakthrough performance by the electronics but there's little evidence for that. 

First, the social media links are part of my Crosman signature. You know that. 

Secondly, a big bore shooting more than 2 shots is a breakthrough performance.  The Rogue is delivering 3-21 shots with a variety of weights and fpe making it a never-seen-before performance.

Now then, for the benefit of everyone below is my post from the YF in its entireity. For context it was written in response to "What happened to the Benjamin Rogue?" and after a string of responses mentioning false claims and opinions based on hearsay and general disdain, I wanted to set the record straight.

The Rogue is alive and very well

The Benjamin Rogue .357 is going strong among the its target market: traditional gun hunters. That's not the Yellow crowd so we here in Bloomfield are not as surprised at the lack of reviews showing up here.

Our courtesy calls to customers reveal they have no idea this forum exists and in fact learned of the gun through Outdoor Channel's coverage of SHOT, from their predator magazine and the Predator Masters forum, our own sponsored tv shows, Outdoor Life, Field and Stream and the NRA's top new guns of the year articles.

Production of the Rogue has been a daunting endeavor, without a doubt. And we have checked off issues as they come up. That early leaking you heard about? Done, fixed. Computer glitches? No more. The magazine not centering rounds? The new design is done on that too. The Rogue is far from "an unmitigated disaster", it's just the folks around these parts are not the ones buying them.

Off the shelf vs. Quality Checked: We check every gun, not just the ones that go to writers or on-air personalities. The goal of bringing traditional hunters into airgunning is that important. Any suggestion that an off-the-shelf gun from Cabela's is different is flat wrong. Consider the fact the Rogue is available as an online-only item from Cabela's and we drop ship them direct to the customer.

There are some false recollections about the Rogue's performance claims so I'll clear that up with our most current research:

Grain/Power StartPSI EndPSI FPE PSI/shot #shots
170 HIGH    3000    2600    195    173.0   3
170 MED    3000    2100    171    115.2   9
170 LOW    3000    1550    133 73.1   21

145 HIGH    3000    2700    181    122.3   3
145 MED    3000    2300    158    88.9 9
145 LOW    2700    1600    132    69.1 16

100 HIGH    3000    2400    147    110.2   6
100 MED    2600    1700    111    68.3 13
100 LOW    2200    1250    80    54.1 18

The Rogue is most at home still hunting for predators and hogs. It's a big gun and not for a walk through the woods.

Nosler has seen such success with the Rogue they are expanding their airgun offerings to .22 and .25 caliber.

SHOT Show's Media Day at the Range had a record number of attendees, all media representatives, and the Rogue got a lot of attention from hunting shows and periodicals. They held it. They shot it. They wanted it. And every request for a review sample will be honored because that is the goal: reach traditional hunters and bring them into airgunning. It is not to bring airgunners into hunting.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

While you're digesting that, here's the latest video of the gun in action:
http://www.crosman.com/hunting/2012/02/dont-shoot-the-momma/

[Rescue35]

 
Secondly, a big bore shooting more than 2 shots is a breakthrough performance. 

Not really. Again, my Dragon Slayer has no problem giving me 8-10 shots in the 160-170 FPE range. Where the numbers you posted shows the Rogue is only getting 3 shots in that power range ironically using similar weight projectiles.*

What interest me the most about the Rogue is the ability to turn it down for a higher shot count at lower energy. The only down side for me is the length as it weighs about the same as the DS and I carry it a lot looking for deer and coyote.

I really like the fact that hunters are starting to realize the benefits of using air rifles to hunt. As a side note this is the first year (2011) that I have hunted exclusively with an air rifle all year and this was my best year to date.

*Edit I belive I miss read the information Chip provided. Upon closer inspection  it appears that the Rogue is producing 195 fpe while using 173 psi for 3 shots. Also it is producing 171 fpe using 115.2 psi for 9 shots. Sorry about that, the formatting threw me off.

[longislandhunter]

"Off the shelf vs. Quality Checked: We check every gun, not just the ones that go to writers or on-air personalities. The goal of bringing traditional hunters into airgunning is that important. Any suggestion that an off-the-shelf gun from Cabela's is different is flat wrong. Consider the fact the Rogue is available as an online-only item from Cabela's and we drop ship them direct to the customer. "

Chip, I have to be honest.  I really find it hard to believe that every gun that comes off your assembly line is checked to the same degree as the guns you select to be delivered to "on air personalities" , "writers" and "field staff" for their evaluations and published reviews.   

That being said I will admit however that I tend to be a very skeptical person so I personally just have a hard time with your statement.  However, if you're saying it's true then I'll take you at your word because you've always struck me as being a "straight shooter" and an honorable person.

I personally have no need for a rifle like the Rogue so to be honest I really don't feel one way or the other about the thing.  I have more than a few Crosman products and I am more than happy with each and every one of them.  Dealing with Crosman customer service has always been a very pleasant experience for me and I think very highly of the company, it's products and it's employees so I wish you guys the best with the Rogue and hope it works out well for Crosman. 

Jeff

[grumpy]

Chip, thank you for clearing up some of the hearsay. As a potential customer I really appreciate it.

Jeff, I think Chip was trying to say that Crosman checks each Rogue before they leave the factory, not every other line of guns. If thats what you were thinking.

Dave

[SAADE]

I'm glad that Chip (or any manufacturer) takes the time to post here, especially to reply to the more cynical posts.

[Rescue35]

Notice I edited my response to Chip above after closer inspection of the numbers he provided.

Grain/Power StartPSI    EndPSI  FPE    PSI/shot    #shots
170 HIGH    3000    2600      195   173.0              3
170 MED    3000    2100      171    115.2               9
170 LOW    3000    1550      133       73.1               21

145 HIGH    3000    2700      181     122.3             3
145 MED    3000    2300      158       88.9              9
145 LOW    2700    1600      132       69.1            16

100 HIGH    3000    2400      147     110.2          6
100 MED    2600    1700      111        68.3            13
100 LOW    2200    1250      80           54.1           18

[Jerry]

First, the social media links are part of my Crosman signature. You know that. 

Secondly, a big bore shooting more than 2 shots is a breakthrough performance.  The Rogue is delivering 3-21 shots with a variety of weights and fpe making it a never-seen-before performance.

Now then, for the benefit of everyone below is my post from the YF in its entireity. For context it was written in response to "What happened to the Benjamin Rogue?" and after a string of responses mentioning false claims and opinions based on hearsay and general disdain, I wanted to set the record straight.

Chip,

First, I did not realize the social media links were part of your signature when I read your brief reply on the Yellow.  I realize that now but I still wonder about the general silence regarding Rogue reviews.  Maybe it's just a function of a relatively small number of guns out there compared to the Marauder.  That said, there are not that many Ranger .45s out and reviews are not hard to find.

Second, three shots from a big bore is hardly breakthrough territory, especially if they are not very consistent.  I'm not saying those three shots are not consistent, I'm just saying you (Crosman) have not shown that they are.  The on the fly tunability of the gun is very impressive.  To get the same range out of other big bores generally requires hammer, spring and pre-load changes.  I guess I'd concede "breakthrough" on the range of performance but not on just the top 3 shots.

As far as general disdain goes; more info will clear some of that up.  I remember defending the Rogue from naysayers before it was even introduced.  There were posters dumping on electronics, weight, caliber, Crosman making a $1500 gun etc....  I suppose a lot of folks have to keep on picking on the gun to justify their original comments but I'm not one of them.  I'm the guy that that gave it a fair shake and is still waiting on some missing info.  OK, maybe 21@133 isn't quite as good as 20@150 but that doesn't make the gun a failure.  But saying 21@133 and not providing the whole string or variations doesn't prove raging success either. 

I've got no brief against the Rogue, I'm glad Crosman took the project on.  I just don't buy partially supported claims of good or bad.  Hopefully we will see some more field reports as we expected.