Reality Check -Rogue-

[Doubletough]

Mello:  Roger that.  I'm sure customers will be posting their findings.

NP: quieter = less quiet than.  Moot point since we've never made that claim.

ch

[Nomadic Pirate]

Less quiet = more noisy

barely less quiet = a little bit more noisy

........That's what I've being hearing since the beginning



Hey how about you send me one on loan for a couple of weeks ? ...I give it a fair review

.........Honestly I have nothing against the rifle itself or the company, ...just get ticked off by all those folks already annointing the rifle as the best thing since slice bread and they haven't even handled it, of seening it for that matter.


Just PLAYING devil's advocate

[Rescue35]

I don't know about bread, I thought it is supposed to be the best thing since sliced butter...

I see PA is saying they will be shipping by the end of October. I thought they were coming out sooner.

Since the new job came through I'm thinking I need one.

[Butcher45]

Chip please take this in good taste . I have not gotten into any of the debates . I do own Crosmans and I do own 6 BB as well . I hope your new rifle sets a new bench mark for others to reach . But I would like to see the chrony strings for the power levels you have mentioned as well as any others you can give . It would help me make up my mind as to which rifle to purchase next . Thank you Marvin

+1

4 shots @250fpe doesn't sound to special, but 20 shots @150fpe sure does.

[Butcher45]

Taken from Croswords, talking about a recent predator hunt where several fox were taken.

“We were able to take multiple targets at ranges varying from 15 yards to 100 and never had to change our holdover, even when the air reservoir’s psi was below 2000,” said Hunnicutt.

http://www.crosman.com/blogs/croswords/2011/04/predator-hunting-with-the-benjamin-rogue/

What slug weight, at what velocity, with what reticle height makes this possible on fox sized game?  They are saying they are getting a maximum PBR (point blank range) of 100 yards on fox, which have a kill zone of about what.....4-5 inches tops? 

http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html

[melloroadman]

Chip you did not answer my question and it was not a open ended question either . Not a good business practice . And I would like you to take the time to answer my question now if you would please .Marvin

[Nomadic Pirate]

WOW, interesting link Chris,

The more they say the least I buy into it,  it seems to me like a lot of Marketing exageration.

[Butcher45]

They aren't saying it shoots flat on fox out to 100 yards. What they are saying is that they can shoot it down to 2000psi without getting any boolit drop (ie same holdover at 2000psi as with a full fill). Sounds like par for the course.

I see they edited the statement, and took out the term "holdover"....that clears things up nicely.

[Nomadic Pirate]

Yeah, that holdover part was the one that got me,....good idea editing it out

[Doubletough]

Sorry Marvin, I felt I did answer you.

As production guns begin rolling next month, you can expect customers will be posting their personal findings in regard to accuracy and velocity.

Chip you did not answer my question and it was not a open ended question either . Not a good business practice . And I would like you to take the time to answer my question now if you would please .Marvin

[JonnyReb]

    Not beating up a gun none of us have ever seen are we? I think we should wait till the thing hits production before we make judgements on it. This gun has been a long time in the making and is being made by the only company in the US willing to put the money and effort into bringing bigbore to our shores, i think we should support them for the effort if nothing else? Jeff

[melloroadman]

Jonny I agree with you .But Chip you have to have the numbers to base your performance numbers on at hand now . Why should I have to wait tell a customer tells me his findings . Which will not be as extensive of testing as what Crosman has done .Marvin

[jetmangd]

 To all,

Here is Jim Chapman 2 Cents on the .357 Rouge @ the 2011 Shot Show. ( http://www.americanairgunhunter.com/rouge.html )I agree with Mellow Roadman , That  Crosman should have Current performance numbers on the New .357 Rifle that you would
think Chip would have access to and could pass on this information. It would be nice if Chip did not side step the Question,
And or explain why this basic information is still not able to be released to the public at this time. Because on the second nice
request for information, unfortunately Chip is still unable to answer the Question. The Current Crosman Stats on the Rouge must
be Un Releasable for the public. Makes you think , Why can no Performance numbers be shown from the Factory ? I Guess
we will have to wait until the public sale date and get some FPS & FT/LBS with the 3 new Benjamin Nosler Bullets, The
Benjamin Extrreme @ 145 Grains , Benjamin Pursuit Hollow Point @ 90 Grains and the Benjamin Pursuit Round Nose @ 175 Grains.
Here is another write up on the .357 Rouge:

http://flaguns.com/showthread.php?12061-Crosman-Introduces-The-Benjamin-Rogue-.357-Big-Bore-ePCP-Air-Rifle&p=86202

Its like the 1970 Camaro ( or 1970 1/2 ), GM strategy, Was to let small bits of information out to keep all of the potential
buyers mouths watering and on the edge of the seat. And also delayed the arrival of the car until summer to build up the
buyers demand for the new era Camaro. However Performance numbers were not with withheld and was one of the 1st
very important bits of information to be publicly bragged about. Lets face it, The stats are, Everything you need to know.


                                                         Jetman / Gary / Disabled,  US Army

[Butcher45]

As production guns begin rolling next month, you can expect customers will be posting their personal findings in regard to accuracy and velocity.

Judging from that statement, you are obviously new to bigbore airguns.

Unfortunately it usually just doesn't work that way Chip.  More often than not (much more), getting a bigbore owner to do any sort of chrony/accuracy testing with his rifle is like squeezing water out of a rock.  Plus half the people that do actually test their rifle, do it improperly.

I don't think a chrony string or two to back up manufacture claims is to much to ask.  I would like to see some of these 20 shots at 150 fpe strings.

[Rescue35]

To play manufacturers advocate, it could well be that there are proprietary issues here. Such as the fact that the patent is still pending on the e-valve. Not to mention I'm sure Chip signed a nondisclosure agreement which would prevent him from releasing info not on the "official" list of OK-ed information.

A 145 grain slug would have to travel at 682 fps to make 150 fpe. So there are the numbers you where wanting...unless you just think that Crosman (or Chip) is out right lying. If so then say so. We will know soon enough, May is right around the corner.

[Butcher45]

To play manufacturers advocate, it could well be that there are proprietary issues here. Such as the fact that the patent is still pending on the e-valve. Not to mention I'm sure Chip signed a nondisclosure agreement which would prevent him from releasing info not on the "official" list of OK-ed information.

A 145 grain slug would have to travel at 682 fps to make 150 fpe. So there are the numbers you where wanting...unless you just think that Crosman (or Chip) is out right lying. If so then say so. We will know soon enough, May is right around the corner.

To play manufacturers advocate, it could well be that there are proprietary issues here. Such as the fact that the patent is still pending on the e-valve. Not to mention I'm sure Chip signed a nondisclosure agreement which would prevent him from releasing info not on the "official" list of OK-ed information.

A 145 grain slug would have to travel at 682 fps to make 150 fpe. So there are the numbers you where wanting...unless you just think that Crosman (or Chip) is out right lying. If so then say so. We will know soon enough, May is right around the corner.

Yea Rescue 35, I know how fast a 145grain slug needs to go to make 150fpe.  Those are not the numbers I am wanting.  I very much doubt they are using 145grain slugs for 20 shot strings.....lightweight slugs are a no-brainer for high shot count.

The numbers I am wanting are the velocities of shots 1 thru 20 to see what the fps variance is, and the boolit weight used to get 20 shots@150fpe.

Nobody is calling anyone a liar  It's just like anything else in life......if you are prepared to make a claim be prepared to back it up and show us something.  Walk the walk.  Otherwise you probably shouldn't say anything to begin with. 

[JonnyReb]

   Seems like a couple of you guys are..?mad?, irritated at the least about a guns specs that you can't even buy. The reason you don't have numbers is because it's not for sale. Why not let the gun hit the market before hammering away at crosman for specs they themselves might not be exactly sure about?  Why bash them for marketing? Nothing wrong with trying to build excitement about an upcoming product, every successful company does it. And even more to the point, for anyone who thinks it's hideous and you know you'll never own one, why be on this thread at all?

[Butcher45]

   Seems like a couple of you guys are..?mad?, irritated at the least about a guns specs that you can't even buy. The reason you don't have numbers is because it's not for sale. Why not let the gun hit the market before hammering away at crosman for specs they themselves might not be exactly sure about?  Why bash them for marketing? Nothing wrong with trying to build excitement about an upcoming product, every successful company does it. And even more to the point, for anyone who thinks it's hideous and you know you'll never own one, why be on this thread at all?

Then they shouldn't be making any claims about it that they aren't willing to back up now should they?

They are making 20 shots@150fpe a selling point.  A lot of people will want this gun so they can shoot 20 shots at 150fpe. 

We are a bit apprehensive to just accept info offered without checking into it, seeing as there is still un-corrected, misleading info floating around out there indicating the Rogue will give you 40 shots on low power.

There is nothing wrong with asking for something to substantiate the claim they are using as a selling point (before the rifle has hit the market).



 

 

[JonnyReb]

  It just seems pointless to argue about something thats not accessable. When they actually have a gun for sale, it won't be the prototypes they are shooting now but the production model, which they can give accurate numbers on.  They can't back it up because theres no product to back up yet. They can't make shot count a selling point because theres not a gun for sale. My own inclination woud be to wait for field tests from the first buyers, thats where the most accurate info will come from. I don't know anyone chomping at the bit to be the first to buy one, personally yes i myself do want one but will wait till i see what folks think of them, and also wait to see if price goes down. I'm thinking it will be fall before we really have answers to all of our questions and before these guns are readily available for shipping. I think all of the questions will be answered before the gun is easily had.  J

[Butcher45]

When they actually have a gun for sale, it won't be the prototypes they are shooting now but the production model, which they can give accurate numbers on.  They can't back it up because theres no product to back up yet. They can't make shot count a selling point because theres not a gun for sale.

Johhny Reb, when they come on here and STATE AS FACT that this rifle will get 20 shots@150fpe, that is certainly making shot count a selling point.  If they can't back it up as you suggest that they can't because there is no product to back-up, then why are they making the claim?  To sell rifles, of course.

What argument?  We asked for a chrony string or two to demonstrate, and back-up a claim made by a Crosman rep in this thread, and were denied without an explanation as to why that info isn't available to us.  Nothing to argue there, but it certainly provides cause for irritation.

I mean really.....if I made a FACTUAL, unprecedented claim about my (not even released yet) product, and someone asked to see that claim demonstrated, how would I look if I said "Oh I can't/won't share that with you.  You will have to wait and ask someone that has paid me for it already".