Does the Diana Bullseye Z R mount WORK?

[phoebeisis]

Christophe

Thanks

I just copied and saved-on paper-this thread from hector's post with the pictured on down
I'm old-ish-65- so I still "like" having paper to read file save
so I can page thru it-underling etc-
it makes more sense when I can actually "hold" it I'm my hand to consult-looking at a screen-multiple screens-just isn't that same for my generation as actual paper you can hold in your hand
Thanks all
Charlie

[mpbby]

Hello..

Some time ago I bought 2 ZR mounts 1st gen, only based on the 'plausible sounding' that Charlie named so well.  I can't notice any changes in their sliding movement no matter how much the little screws are tightened to hold the rods.

Nevertheless, I've bended the 350 barrel to match the 'built in compensation', and tried for a while, but the ZR remains an enigma for me.  The essential question is that I can't be sure if the recoils are actually being "neutralized", and I'm not going to wait for a broken scope to discover a 'no'.  So, I've bended again the barrel to match the flat mounts, and my two ZR are on the shelf.

I am waiting for some accelerometer tests that Héctor was planning, but I don't know if he is going to try on other rifles, besides the 54.  If I have good news from him, it would be a good start.

Even with good news, I'll have to think about what information could be useful to assume for my 350 and its specific shot cycle. 

[HectorMedina]

Christophe;

Your approach is very good, as long as you are talking "hunting" accuracy. If you want FT Match type accuracy, you cannot allow the rails to rings mounting screws to be even a little bit loose. You need to build in the tolerance somewhere else, where you can eliminate it later and adjust for wear.

A note here: the screws that affix the rails to the rings are NOT allen, they are Torx. Use the right tool, always.

Marcos:
I have been a little busy with travels and the baby, and now I do have to start in earnest preparations for Portugal/Lisbon. I did finally get the time/g curves for the accelerometers I bought, without these, you could not make sense of any result obtained. I am sure the manufacturer had to learn how to get the curves, because they are hand-drawn in graph paper and all done by hand. Clearly the first pass at this. Goes to show you how specialized our problems are.

I am glad you are keeping at this, but I have to let you know that at present, UMAREX and Diana are not agreeing on the further importation of the ZR Mounts. Diana (Sales dept.) tells me they do want to sell them, UMAREX tells me they "cannot order" them.
We'll see and I, for sure, will let you know what happens as soon as I can find out.

I made 43 Accurized ZR mounts, so, if you have one, take good care of it. It may, or may not, become a collector's item.

 

Keep well and shoot straight!






Héctor

[mpbby]

Hi Héctor.

Good luck in Portugal and a lot of happiness to you and your family!

As to the ZR, Diana and Umarex .. all this situation seems very strange for me. 

"Using this ZR-Mount, damaged scopes belong to the past.
And the very best: This ZR-Mount is not reserved for the
proud DIANA owners only, it fits on almost every air rifle
and for almost every scope."

http://www.diana-airguns.de/fileadmin/pdf/katalog/BULLSEYE_eng.pdf

"..almost..  ..almost.." !?

For which rifle/scopes combinations Diana has done actual accelerometer tests (or whatever, trustable and conclusive), and can prove it?

What if a customer legally ask for technical and actual evidences? What about to be sued for 'misleading advertising'?

Marcos
 

[HectorMedina]

Hi Héctor.

Good luck in Portugal and a lot of happiness to you and your family!

As to the ZR, Diana and Umarex .. all this situation seems very strange for me. 

"Using this ZR-Mount, damaged scopes belong to the past.
And the very best: This ZR-Mount is not reserved for the
proud DIANA owners only, it fits on almost every air rifle
and for almost every scope."

http://www.diana-airguns.de/fileadmin/pdf/katalog/BULLSEYE_eng.pdf

"..almost..  ..almost.." !?

For which rifle/scopes combinations Diana has done actual accelerometer tests (or whatever, trustable and conclusive), and can prove it?

What if a customer legally ask for technical and actual evidences? What about to be sued for 'misleading advertising'?

Marcos
 

Marcos,

Thanks for your kind wishes.

You MAY be taking things the wrong way.

The "almost" in the ad is aimed at the relatively shallow space between the bottom of the rings and the watertable. So, Diana VERY CLEARLY is telling people that NOT ALL scopes will fit in the ZR mounts. Of course, Diana's Bullseye scopes have small saddles, so they do not care for added clearance. That those scopes do not make it to the US in a different problem.

Also, you have to remember that Webley used for some time a special 14 mm's dovetail. Different from the Weaver/Picatinny profile and from the 11 mm's DIN dovetail. So, that is another point where the "almost" comes into play.

There is no claim that the mount will solve ALL problems.

And, as for someone suing Diana, well, I do not know, but that would definitely make them pull the product from the market, and it would be a pity because the mounts work well when properly handled. It would be just one more example of how the selfishness of one (or few), prevails over the good of the many. It would be a loss to the airgunning community and no one would benefit from that.

JMHO







Héctor

[rws45user]

I have the Hatsan 125 sniper  in the spring version . Its the hardest reverse recoil gun  I think made  or close to it . I have had the bullseye on the gun for all most a year now and I have a hugh sightmark 30mm tube 10-40x56 triple duty non- air gun rated scope on it . Its holding zero perfectly  . I had the same scope on this gun without the  bullseye  mount  and I had to send it back  with less than 500  shots  480 to be exact ,to be replaced with a new one because  the reverse recoil  from the gun bent the metal bar that runs down from the turrets to the tube, It  bent  it so bad the turrets would not make a full turn and this scope is 50 cal rated.  So far the new scope is holding up with the new  bullseye mount  so it has made a difference . There is 2  thing you have to make sure  you do when using this mount , take the allen screws  that are in the bottom of the ring that  press on the bars or rails  out one at a time and get the grease out of the threads on the ring and the screws , put the blue loctite 242  on them and let them dry for at least a day 24 hours ,then as your doing your final scope ring tightening hold the gun barrel in the air and push the mount up and feel how easy the scope slides on the 2  mount rails   then as your tightening up  the screws  in the zig zag order  keep moving the pushing the mount  up and make sure it  does not start to bind on the rails . You can tell right away when it starts to bind  the scope  mount will not fall back as easy as it did  in the beginning. If it starts to bind  tighten the other side again and then go back to the one that caused the bind. Keep moving the mount forward and letting it fall  after your done the mount should move like it did before you started . I found  giving the  screws that go to the rails a good tightening with loctite  before  you start made a big difference . I didn't  tighten or loctite  the screws going to the rail the first time I mounted the scope and found it binding  really easily and I was very careful how I adjusted the ring screws .The 2nd time I  mount  the scope after I tightened and loctite the rail screws  I didn't get any binding at all  as I was doing my finally tightening on the ring screws with a slow and easy zig zag  tightening . When your gun is pointed up and you push forward and it falls back with no resistance  the mount will keep your scope safe from the reverse recoil ,if you have it in a bind and it doesn't move freely  then the mount won't work as it should . I'll do a up date  on this mount and my non air gun -rated scopes after a put another 500 or 1,000 shots  with it  . I got the mount direct Umarex for 70.00 dollars so I got 2 of them  one for my rws model 45 and the Hatsan . I got the 30mm picitinny rail mounts and there was space between the mount and the scope under the turrets .

[mpbby]

Héctor, I hadn't seen your last post, but better late than never.

Ok, about the 'almost', each one with its own perspective.

Nevertheless, even not being a current concern to me, but just to let you know.  Even my DIANA 3-9x 40 AO (2013) does not fit the DIANA ZR.. (saddle).

What REALLY bothers me is not having any objective evidence that a good quality scope on the 350 would be actually BEING protected by the ZR, in order to last, let's say, "tens thousands" rounds holding zero.. 

"Oh, I see. You have a Diana rifle, your ZR was sliding freely, and your good quality scope is not holding zero after 3.1 k rounds?  I'm so sorry.  Unfortunately, maybe your scope was just a lemon, or, your case may be within the possible exceptions that Diana has predicted and clearly stated.. Your good quality scope should also have a good warranty, right? Have you noticed the term 'almost' that Diana has written here..? Considering you have great expectations when shooting (..), maybe you should always have a second scope as a backup?"

Without trustable evidences of an actual and significant protection DURING my 350 shooting, I see a high risk of being just wishful thinking about an ENLARGED scope lifespan, and be "early" caught by the bad surprise.



 

[rws45user]

Okay its been 4 years now and the zero of my gun has not change at all . Taking  the mount completely apart  and  getting rid of all the grease off the  allen screws  and inside the threads  and then putting it back  together with loctite on ever screw and let it set completely  up  I think is a must do  for this  mount to work . You also have to make sure that once you have your scope rings  tightened up  that the scope  moves  back and forth  like it did without the scope on it . It it doesn't spring back even with a 2 lb  16 in long  10-40x56  scope  on it then your  tightening one screw more than the other and causing it to bind up . Keep trying till it moves freely . Once its set up correctly  this mount will save your scope and  keep your zero  even on a magnum springer like my Hatsan 125 sniper. I have two  of these mounts now and both work perfectly . Just take the time and  set it up right .

[Madd Hatter]

I've got a chicom knock off of the ZR mount that I've done a lot of mods to to get it accurate and I had a bundled no brand scope aka cheap junk on my rws 48 with a vortec spring kit install. To say this rifle hits scopes hard would be a understatement. It was on my 48 for a few hundred rounds and was still holding zero when I installed a scope of higher mag. The ZR doesn't require the mods I did and the one that Hector sells has been assembled to have very close tolances than the off the shelf ZR.

[Yogi]

Héctor, I hadn't seen your last post, but better late than never.

Ok, about the 'almost', each one with its own perspective.

Nevertheless, even not being a current concern to me, but just to let you know.  Even my DIANA 3-9x 40 AO (2013) does not fit the DIANA ZR.. (saddle).

What REALLY bothers me is not having any objective evidence that a good quality scope on the 350 would be actually BEING protected by the ZR, in order to last, let's say, "tens thousands" rounds holding zero.. 

"Oh, I see. You have a Diana rifle, your ZR was sliding freely, and your good quality scope is not holding zero after 3.1 k rounds?  I'm so sorry.  Unfortunately, maybe your scope was just a lemon, or, your case may be within the possible exceptions that Diana has predicted and clearly stated.. Your good quality scope should also have a good warranty, right? Have you noticed the term 'almost' that Diana has written here..? Considering you have great expectations when shooting (..), maybe you should always have a second scope as a backup?"

Without trustable evidences of an actual and significant protection DURING my 350 shooting, I see a high risk of being just wishful thinking about an ENLARGED scope lifespan, and be "early" caught by the bad surprise.



 

Dude,

As other have mentioned the ZR-1 works.  I'm surprised that you don't want proof that shooting your D350 won't make you sterile.
Life has risks, there is no 100% guarantee on anything.  Living in Brazil you should be used to taking risks.
Have a Caipirinha and chill-out.

-Y

[JungleShooter]

I just stumbled across this thread.
Amazing stuff.

Héctor, you are an amazing guy. It's rare to meet people who are so PRO (top notch professional) and still so PERSONAL and helpful! 😊
Your posts in this thread really show this.

THANKS for helping us out here at GTA!  👍🏼
Matthias 😊

[Yogi]

I just stumbled across this thread.
Amazing stuff.

Héctor, you are an amazing guy. It's rare to meet people who are so PRO (top notch professional) and still so PERSONAL and helpful! 😊
Your posts in this thread really show this.

THANKS for helping us out here at GTA!  👍🏼
Matthias 😊

+1

[HectorMedina]

 
THX!


HM

[A.K.A. Tommy Boy]

I just stumbled across this thread.
Amazing stuff.

Héctor, you are an amazing guy. It's rare to meet people who are so PRO (top notch professional) and still so PERSONAL and helpful! 😊
Your posts in this thread really show this.

THANKS for helping us out here at GTA!  👍🏼
Matthias 😊

+1

In regards to Hector Medina. 

In my opinion, the air gun information that he chose to bless & enlighten me with... was pure gold.
Thank you Hector, for the times that you have helped me out.



In regards to the effectiveness of the Diana Bullseye ZR scope mount.

Some years ago, thru the GTA Classifieds, I acquired 2012 era Benjamin Trail Np XL 1100 Magnum rifle from the original owner.
The recoil on this rifle damaged the combination scope that came with it. The rifle also damaged 2 other high-end "magnum springer rated" scopes.
All this scope damage came over the course of 4 1/2 years. He became frustrated with this rifle, listed it in the classifieds and switched to PCP.
He truthfully gave me the complete history on his rifle, the mods that were done on it.
He asked me if I knew exactly what I was getting into. (Based on his experiences replacing scopes.)
We worked out an agreeable equipment trade and I became the owner of this problematic rifle.
The short story on all of this is....based on information from Hector...I bought a Dana Bullseye ZR scope mount, designed for use on a picatinny rail.
The scope that I bought and used with it was a inexpensive 1 inch tube, Hammers 3-9x32 AO Mill Dot air rifle scope.
The upshot of all this is... by mounting a ZR scope mount, all the previous scope problems disappeared ! 
There were no more scope problems for the years that I owned this rifle.
(I no longer own this rifle. It was replaced with a .25 cal. Hatsan 125 Magnum & a .22 cal. Walther Talon Magnum.)

The ZR scope mount had made all the difference. 
Properly torqued as to Hectors specifications,  I can honestly say that I never once had a problem with the functioning of the ZR scope mount.
I used this rifle as a small game hunting rifle. This mount was used in harsh back country environments and in sub zero weather.

The ZR mount saw plenty of ice and snow ....it always worked...& worked very well.


Best Wishes - Tom



 

[mac]

I just stumbled across this thread.
Amazing stuff.

Héctor, you are an amazing guy. It's rare to meet people who are so PRO (top notch professional) and still so PERSONAL and helpful! 😊
Your posts in this thread really show this.

THANKS for helping us out here at GTA!  👍🏼
Matthias 😊

+2
And ditto Tommy’s comments on Hector.

[dtdtdtdt]

I must have been under a rock for a while!!!!  I just read through this whole string and was amazed at the problems people have had with their ZR-mounts!!!!   

I have three of Hector's accurized ZR mounts and didn't know they were so rare!  The first one, I had on a Diana 54 (both a Hector Special and an OEM)  for about 3 years and several thousand pellets.  It is the earlier version, Gen 1???, maybe,  It has 1" rings and has been matched with a Sightron Scope whose specs, I don't have at hand right now but not one of the super-duper ones'  I used a very similar mounting process to that described by Hector above that I have used for the best part of 60years on all kinds of rifles. 

ONE thing I don't do is degrease the screws but use an alcohol wipe on the ring saddles to clean them up.  If you check the Engineering literature on screws and torques, they specify both "dry" and "oiled" torque levels. The numbers generally used are "oiled" torques.  I also don't normally put Locktite on the screws.  If the screw is tensioned by using correct torques they are stretched a little bit and don't easily come loose.  I usually check them every few months to see if there has been any loosening and rarely find any.  I have three torque wrenches (FAT, Matco - certified, and Gehlmann - certified.). I compared them and found the FAT acceptable for any use I would make of them.  I have one in each of my range bags - usually used to help other shooters with problems at the range!  For as much money as we all spend on scopes, bases, rifles, etc. the $50 or so that a FAT costs is well worth it! 

I torque the rings to 15in/lb using the FAT wrench that Hector describes.  The cross bolts holding it to the rifle are torqued to 30in/lb.  NEITHER THE MOUNT OR THE SCOPE HAS HAD ANY SPECIAL TREATMENT BEYOND AN OCCASIONALLY DUSTING OF THE LENSES AND RE-ZEROING AFTER A HIATUS IN SHOOTING OR CHANGE IN PELLET BATCHES.  It has held zero and appears to work reliably and slides freely. OOPS, I just remember that a I put a drop of "liquid bearings" on the rods when the spirit moves me.  No problems with the mount or scope at all.  (think John Cameron Swaezy and the old TIMEx commercials)

The other two are later versions (Gen 2??) that have the inserts for 1" in the 30mm rings.  Both as treated as above.  Both work fine!  No problems, no binding, no scope issues, no zero hold issues, etc.   They just work.  Again both have been shot a lot.  Not as much as Hector does at matches but on a typical day at least 100 shots.  I have to guess that the .177 has had a least 1000 pellets while the .20 has had about 1500 pellets through it.  NO PROBLEMS ON ZERO, SLIPPING, OR SCOPE DAMAGE. Again Sightron scopes.

The only changes I would ask for in the ZR is to make them shorter in length and height so I could use shorter/lighter scopes and get the visual axis closer to the bore. 

Before the ZR sets, I used the RWS Lockdown base/rings in both 1" and 30mm on the .177 D54.  They worked fine too but an RWS branded 4-12 scope fail after and unknown number of pellets.  I put several thousand through it and I don't know what the previous owner had done.  The objective lens came loose.  Re-gluing would have fixed it but I chose a new scope instead.  A friend took the scope, reglued the objective lens and is using it on a powder rifle.

In the 15 years, I have been following air rifles, I have read and heard many tales about scope damage from springers.  I guess I have been lucky??  This discussion is making me think it might be fun/useful to do a survey of GTA members and their scope / mount issues.  I'll think about it??

 

[Denby95]

Just added to add this info incase it was relevant as I've not seen any information about the 3rd gen. I purchased a ZR scope mount from Pyramid Air in December which seemed to claim it was a 3rd gen model.

I'm not sure what was changed in the 3rd gen, but I noticed Hector in his blog had said "The 2nd generation increased the diameter of the pins (from around 0.237" to 0.257")". I measured the diameter of the pins of the new one I received and they came out to .240. Can still feel some side to side slop.

I also ordered a ZR scope mount from Aliexpress for 10 bucks. I figured PA charged me 60 something bucks for the Diana version which still had the cheap made in china sticker on it, lets see how bad the quality control on the Aliexpress one is for 10 dollars.

[uglymike]

I wouldn't take one if somebody gave me one. I tried the ZR mount. I'm not intelligent enough to mount it. I completely took it apart not once but several times in an attempt to make it work. Cleaned every part with alcohol and a soft toothbrush. Spent several hours try to get it to not bind. I couldn't understand the vague, English-as-a-second language instructions. No torque specs. After stripping out one of the bolts (you know, the one EVERYBODY strips out on this $70 Chinese made mount) I gave up. I still use 1 as set line sinker, the others that came included as a scope/mount with some rifles I bought I quickly dumped for cheap.
Like I said, I'm not intelligent enough to properly mount this, it's entirely my fault. 

[dtdtdtdt]

I wouldn't take one if somebody gave me one. I tried the ZR mount. I'm not intelligent enough to mount it. I completely took it apart not once but several times in an attempt to make it work. Cleaned every part with alcohol and a soft toothbrush. Spent several hours try to get it to not bind. I couldn't understand the vague, English-as-a-second language instructions. No torque specs. After stripping out one of the bolts (you know, the one EVERYBODY strips out on this $70 Chinese made mount) I gave up. I still use 1 as set line sinker, the others that came included as a scope/mount with some rifles I bought I quickly dumped for cheap.
Like I said, I'm not intelligent enough to properly mount this, it's entirely my fault.

Regarding stripping out aluminum with steel screws.  I too have done it but that was before I got a torque wrench.  Recently, just for fun and information, I took some old aluminum scope bases and tested the threads the saddle to destruction.   These weren't melted down beer cans that the Chinese would use but "OLD" stock Weaver bases made of a decent alloy.   I found that the #6 threaded holes for the rings would strip out at about 40-45in/lb of torque and as low as 35 in some cases. 

Back in the day, I used 'cowboy tight' a lot.  Just as tight as I could get it without buggering the screw slots (before Allen screws were used!) and for good measure usually managed to bugger the slots!!!  I was amazed at how much over torqued they were!  I recently bought a Model 70 in .243Win.  The mount screw holes in the action were stripped to the point that I had to redrill and open them up from #6 to #8 so I could mount one. 

FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH:  After I wrote the above note, I went back to the engineering literature (As key words google: screws dry oiled torque)  on torquing screws and the impact of degreasing and having "dry" versus oiled screws.   It turns out that dry screws must be torqued to about 30% higher levels to get the same tensioning force of an oiled screw!  This is counterintuitive to me! Remember screws are actually very stiff springs and must be in tension to hold tightly.  Some of the problems described here might be the result of incorrect tension levels because the screws and bases were unlubricated??

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/torque-lubrication-effects-d_1693.html

[uglymike]

I wouldn't take one if somebody gave me one. I tried the ZR mount. I'm not intelligent enough to mount it. I completely took it apart not once but several times in an attempt to make it work. Cleaned every part with alcohol and a soft toothbrush. Spent several hours try to get it to not bind. I couldn't understand the vague, English-as-a-second language instructions. No torque specs. After stripping out one of the bolts (you know, the one EVERYBODY strips out on this $70 Chinese made mount) I gave up. I still use 1 as set line sinker, the others that came included as a scope/mount with some rifles I bought I quickly dumped for cheap.
Like I said, I'm not intelligent enough to properly mount this, it's entirely my fault.

Regarding stripping out aluminum with steel screws.  I too have done it but that was before I got a torque wrench.  Recently, just for fun and information, I took some old aluminum scope bases and tested the threads the saddle to destruction.   These weren't melted down beer cans that the Chinese would use but "OLD" stock Weaver bases made of a decent alloy.   I found that the #6 threaded holes for the rings would strip out at about 40-45in/lb of torque and as low as 35 in some cases. 

Back in the day, I used 'cowboy tight' a lot.  Just as tight as I could get it without buggering the screw slots (before Allen screws were used!) and for good measure usually managed to bugger the slots!!!  I was amazed at how much over torqued they were!  I recently bought a Model 70 in .243Win.  The mount screw holes in the action were stripped to the point that I had to redrill and open them up from #6 to #8 so I could mount one. 

FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH:  After I wrote the above note, I went back to the engineering literature (As key words google: screws dry oiled torque)  on torquing screws and the impact of degreasing and having "dry" versus oiled screws.   It turns out that dry screws must be torqued to about 30% higher levels to get the same tensioning force of an oiled screw!  This is counterintuitive to me! Remember screws are actually very stiff springs and must be in tension to hold tightly.  Some of the problems described here might be the result of incorrect tension levels because the screws and bases were unlubricated??

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/torque-lubrication-effects-d_1693.html

I have a Wheeler Fat Wrench. Torque specs have nothing to do with stripping out that bizzarre rotating bolt at an odd angle that isn't a stop pin. Or whatever that thing is that sticks out the bottom of the mount that looks like a stop pin. Never did figure out what it was for, because of the English-as-a-second language paperwork.