Does the Diana Bullseye Z R mount WORK?

[phoebeisis]

I'm cheap ,gullible,and like plausible sounding   gadgets that are supposed to fix a problem.
The Diana Bullseye Z R mount-about $110 delivered
supposed to allow you-me-to put a $40 scope(like my center point 3x9x32)  to survive a scope killing springer like my RWS 460
Has anyone actually tried it?
Like I said I'm gullible and cheap - 65 years old-so I should know better
But soon I am going to get one-hoping some dealer will discount them a bit more than $100 plus shipping?
Thanks
Charlie

[mpbby]

Even if/when you think you have found a "good deal" regarding price + shipment, don't do it yet based on the .. plausible sounding.

Do a research for real customers' reviews.  Btw, if/when you find them, please post the link(s). 

Also, be aware about the built in droop compensation.  If you already don't know, try to find out if your 460 has a 'barrel droop' (downwards). 
If you take for granted what you usually read about needing to keep your scope nearly 'optically centered', and guessing in advance, most probably you are going to have to bend the 460 barrel.  Just to try the ZR mount, with any guarantee it will actually work as you think it would.

So, until you get more confident based on - actual and objective - customers' reviews regarding the ZR, there is another way to go with your 460.

Think about finding an airgun rated scope brand/model that fits your budget and - essentially - has a recognized friendly warranty policy. When the scope becomes unreliable, just replace it through warranty; once, twice,..
Btw, reading from the more experienced people here, this should be considered .. a plausible sounding way of thinking. 

OK, due Brazilian circumstances, and making the story short, I can't count with scope warranties to my 350 - at all.  So, I (65 years old..) already bought the ZR mount based on.. the plausible sounding.  I'm still trying to find out if it's actually useful.     And, yes, I have already bent the 350 barrel (a few times yet). 

Please be totally free to ask anything you want to know.

Marcos




 

 

[K_sqrd]

Here's a link showing a possible issue with this mount...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/184474/thread/1423821360

There is a lot of commentary on the DianaWerks forum. Do a search with
"Diana Bullseye ZR Mount" here...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/184474

[Charles Outdoors]

I just ordered this mount because my scopes won't hold zero on the HW90. I came across the issue of the mount being to low in the center and killed 2 birds with one stone. I have 1 inch tube scopes now and looking at a UTG 30mm that should be out soon. I bought the Bullseye 30mm and some 30mm to 1 inch adapters. If nothing else the adapters will hopefully raise my 1 inch scopes up enough to clear the mount. Others said they put shims under the scope to clear so this should do it.


If the UTG 30mm won't clear I'l just stay with 1 inch tubes.


You can get the 30MM Bullseye at Airgun Depot and get $10.00 off with code HUNT10 good through 3/7/16
http://www.airgundepot.com/bullseye-zr-1-pc-mount-30mm-rings-11mm-dovetail-004.html


I used these adapters because they will fit almost all ring were the ones with a lip may not.



I see a slow motion video and they do work. My only concern is holding zero. I think they are made in Germany so they should be good.


Will have them on 3/10/16 most likely and will do a little review on them.
 

[Yogi]

I have the ZR Bullseye mount.  My scope is a Optisan Mamba Lite 3-12x44. Fits fine.....
I tried this scope with one of the one piece BKL mounts and had the same trouble that you mentioned, the turrets bottom out on the section of the mount between the rings.  I did not feel like grinding away 2-3mm from the central part of the mount so I sent it back.  Finally came up with a drooper scope rail and medium rings on another one piece.  This is my backup scope mount....

It is very frustrating having a scope mount that will not fit your scope.  Some scopes have a turret section that sticks down more that some others.  I wish scope manufacturers would stress this dimension because this is as important or more than the length of where you can mount the rings.
Good luck,
-Y

[phoebeisis]

Thanks all

So at least 2 potential problems
1) My 460 might not have any droop-wish I remembered how much we had to adjust the center point 3x9x32 when we installed it
I think it required quite a bit of elevation-normally scopes are shipped -NEUTRAL- right??? Hmmm perhaps I need to check that scope-the elevation-run it all the way thru-count clicks- put it optically centered-shoot-see if I have droop-
Optically centered to protect the scope-I will have to check that-soon- I would prefer to shim the scope rather than bend my barrel(I know air gunners do it regularly-but it is SOOOO FOREIGN- bend your barrel-INTENTIONALLY?? Yikes!
I think I read somewhere-don't know if it is correct-that Diana builds ALL-even the under levers-with DROOP?? WTH??
Can't say I would have ANY INTEREST in bending a barrel if it doesn't.
 
2)And many scopes bottom out in the middle-the bulging turrets??
My cheap-$40 center point -doesn't have much bulge-maybe 2-3 mm at most-

Thanks for all the helpful responses-I will wait a bit-maybe quite a bit
I did a search-reviews-a while back-didn't find much-don't think there are many Z R mounts in use yet.

You guys are very helpful-thanks!
Thanks all
Charlie

[Yogi]

What is the point of using a $100 mount on a $40 scope?  I thought I was stupid mounting a $300 scope on a $200 gun!
Your scope may have been shipped from the factory optically centred, but I would not count on it.  
If you ever sight your scope in at 50 yards or longer, you will need a drooper mount or you will run out of elevation adjustment.  Many scopes only allow 60 1/4 MOA clicks from centre.
I have no idea if the ZR mounts really make a difference or not, but my scope has not broken yet,
-Y

[Charles Outdoors]

What is the point of using a $100 mount on a $40 scope?  I thought I was stupid mounting a $300 scope on a $200 gun!
Your scope may have been shipped from the factory optically centred, but I would not count on it.  
If you ever sight your scope in at 50 yards or longer, you will need a drooper mount or you will run out of elevation adjustment.  Many scopes only allow 60 1/4 MOA clicks from centre.
I have no idea if the ZR mounts really make a difference or not, but my scope has not broken yet,
-Y

If the mount works as intended the point is to eliminate the problems associated with mounting and keeping any scope, in place and intact on magnum springers regardless for what scope you use to noun on it.  A $600.00 scope is no better than a $40.00 scope if it won't stay in place. Plus you can use non-Springer rated scopes if you choose.

[Yogi]

 Plus you can use non-Springer rated scopes if you choose.

At your own peril.
-Y

[Charles Outdoors]

 Plus you can use non-Springer rated scopes if you choose.

At your own peril.
-Y

Have you tried it with a non springer rated scope and broke it or is that just saying maybe it works, may be it won't.  I was wanting to set up a camera scope mount but they don't normally work as well on springers. It may work with this mount though. The jolt sure seems to be absorbed by the springs in the mount in the Slow mo video. I won't have mine till the end of the week to test it out.

[phoebeisis]

$100 mount $40 scope - on a $400 scope killing RWS 460
Simple-if it actually works
I will get a better scope -maybe
No freakin way am I putting an expensive scope on a scope killer like that
UNTIL I AM sure the mount works
And I like the $40 center point 3x9x32-it is nice and bright(I didn't put the illumination battery in it-no need)-
but $140 for optics on a RWS 460 seems about right

[mpbby]

"Here's a link showing a possible issue with this mount...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/184474/thread/1423821360" (quoted from K_sqrd)

I just forgot about that.

phoebeisis, if you shim the scope at one of the ZR rings, it won't work.  It won't slide freely as it needs.

Do a research about optically centering your scope (mirror technique).  Once the scope is centered, don't do any adjustments and shoot some rounds aiming to a same point, for instance at 10 yards.  The difference between the point of aim and the point of impact will show where your barrel points.

[phoebeisis]

Marcos

Thanks for the info and tips.
And others-thanks for all the useful information.
The Z R mount-
for NOW
I will pass on it.
I just de-scoped- my newly acquired Crosman Phantom .22-
at 10 meters I shoot as well standing free hand as I did with the so so scope with the not consistent droop
I wear glasses-several different pairs +1 to +3.5 (had refractive surgery-and over time-4 years-I ended up over corrected- -3.5 to +1 distant vision)
It was tough to use the 4x32 Center point scope-eye relief and getting my glasses and eye lined up-cheek etc-
With open sights I have to make a choice- clear sights  or clear target  or something in between-not much depth of field-
despite that- with the inexpensive scope- and inconsistent  barrel droop-open sights are better

Now my 460 different story-the 3x9x32 scope-at 3x pretty decent-and if it has droop-it doesn't change
Frankly I am surprised ANY break barrel can shoot consistently with a scope
Obviously they do- HW greatly loved various diana's do- and my inexpensive crosman is locking up more consistently too(moly and use-and I tap it gently after lock up)

In any case-the $110 Z R mount  I'll pass on for now.
A mount that  won't accept many scopes-??
What was Diana thinking- many scopes have Huge bulging turrets?

Thanks all
Charlie

[mpbby]

Charles,

just to let you know, I'm only using my 2 Gamo with the open sights, just because I don't trust they consistently lock up at the very same position.  And/or, the barrel would not be perfectly stable when the stronger recoil happens.

Once you have what you call as a "consistent droop", it's important to consider what kind of adjustments you have to do to the scope - clockwise (adjusting down and/or to the left) or anti-clockwise (up and right).

If you do only clockwise adjustments it should be ok to the scope's resistance to recoils.

If you have to do anti-clockwise adjustments you can't go too far with the clicks.  So, in the usual case you have a huge droop downwards (you would need a huge numbers of clicks UP), you should bend your barrel to avoid anti-clockwise adjustments at all (much better), or, at least, to strongly reduce them.

Anyway, it seems a scope's reliability lifespan under huge recoils is just a matter of number of rounds. So, you should always look for a very friendly warranty policy. 

Marcos

[phoebeisis]

Marcos

Thanks for the tips
Yeah I suspect the "good warranty policy" with heavy recoiling springers- like my 460
is excellent advice.
 I shoot it literally back to back with my Crosman-NP
and the "jump" of the Crosman NP is much much less-
Funny I never thought of air rifles as having recoil-
and relative to many firearms-they don't
But my  9.5lbs with scope 460 .22  has a lot more "jump" than my actual firearm .22lr  winchester 190 (6 lbs) which barely moves
Yeah that 200 or so  gram spring slamming forward 100mm in 1/100 second- them bouncing back-
makes that 460 jump in a way a .22lr certainly doesn't.

Darn 460 actually JUMPS -not exactly pushing backwards-kinda' JUMPS for lack of a better description
amazingly accurate despite the jump-
good thing the pellet is just about out of the barrel by the time the cylinder slams-good reason to avoid heavy pellets

I will keep the "good warranty policy" in mind.
My little crosman shoots pretty well with open sights-
not as accurate as the 460-or as powerful-but for $80-pretty good

[HectorMedina]

The ZR mount is now in its second generation.

You can read and see a frame by frame analysis of a slow motion video here:

http://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/a-high-speed-analysis-of-the-way-the-zr-mounts-work

Basically, the new generation of mounts have thicker pins/rails and use a VERY viscous fluid as lubricant. Sadly, these "improvements" proved more a hindrance than an asset. The 1st generation did not return to battery exactly, but the second generation have already slipped and broken a few scopes.

If you can get a first generation mount and you are not interested in ABSOLUTE accuracy, they work real well. If you are interested in ABSOLUTE accuracy, then you will need to get an accurized version.
I set two buttons on the rear of the floating section that guarantee the return to battery with exceptional repeatability.

I have opted to work only on 30 mm's scope mounts and to furnish adaptors for 1" scope tubes, makes life easier for everyone.

Are they for everyone? not really. But for those of us that are interested in the highest level of accuracy standards at medium to long ranges, yes they are a useful and valuable addition.

HTH






Héctor

[mpbby]

Hi Hector.

Repeatability should be considered just as a "manufacturer's obligation".  If you have found a way to assure it, ok, and much better.

Nevertheless, what people are really interested about is - to protect their scopes from recoil.

I'm in the team that doesn't need "absolute" accuracy and, as far as I know, I have the 1st generation.

In my opinion, the problem is we don't have ANY proof the scope is actually protected.  As we have already talked about, we should have a way to measure (even roughly) the recoil affecting the scope when it's on the ZR.  Almost zero? At least, strongly reduced in comparison to a regular mount?

Unfortunately, as I've told you, till now I have only a strong evidence - to the contrary.  In my last trials, for two times I had scope slippages (to the back!) that should not happen at all. So, in my 350 case, a STRONG second recoil is still acting upon the scope.

The IDEA of having a "floating scope" during the second and stronger recoil is actually wonderful.  BUT, until we have a PROOF that we are actually having an "almost zero" recoil, we will be in the world that Charles has said so well - 'plausible sounding'.

Besides that, and as we also have talked about, I suspect that we may have different timings from one rifle to another.  According to the shot cycle of each rifle, the second recoil could happen - during or after - the ZR floating period.

By now, the "timing mismatch" would be the only explanation I'm able to think to explain the scope slippage (to the back) happening on my 350.

Once Diana doesn't move a finger to prove us, I still hope some skilled people (even with friendly scopes' warranty available) could face this technical challenge.

Btw, the scopes' manufacturers would be the very happy ones if they had to replace much less scopes through warranty.   

Marcos

[HectorMedina]

Hi Hector.

Repeatability should be considered just as a "manufacturer's obligation".  If you have found a way to assure it, ok, and much better.

Nevertheless, what people are really interested about is - to protect their scopes from recoil.

I'm in the team that doesn't need "absolute" accuracy and, as far as I know, I have the 1st generation.

In my opinion, the problem is we don't have ANY proof the scope is actually protected.  As we have already talked about, we should have a way to measure (even roughly) the recoil affecting the scope when it's on the ZR.  Almost zero? At least, strongly reduced in comparison to a regular mount?

Unfortunately, as I've told you, till now I have only a strong evidence - to the contrary.  In my last trials, for two times I had scope slippages (to the back!) that should not happen at all. So, in my 350 case, a STRONG second recoil is still acting upon the scope.

The IDEA of having a "floating scope" during the second and stronger recoil is actually wonderful.  BUT, until we have a PROOF that we are actually having an "almost zero" recoil, we will be in the world that Charles has said so well - 'plausible sounding'.

Besides that, and as we also have talked about, I suspect that we may have different timings from one rifle to another.  According to the shot cycle of each rifle, the second recoil could happen - during or after - the ZR floating period.

By now, the "timing mismatch" would be the only explanation I'm able to think to explain the scope slippage (to the back) happening on my 350.

Once Diana doesn't move a finger to prove us, I still hope some skilled people (even with friendly scopes' warranty available) could face this technical challenge.

Btw, the scopes' manufacturers would be the very happy ones if they had to replace much less scopes through warranty.   

Marcos

Marcos;

As you may know, there is no rifle that punishes the scopes more than the Diana 54. It is a simple physics question that I will not discuss here.

What matters here is that there are more than a dozen ZR mounts out there that are doing their job perfectly. Mostly in FT guns, at least half of them in CCA D-54's.

If you require proof, that is your problem, to be quite blunt.

I have been shooting with one for more than 11 months now and I am perfectly satisfied with the performance of the setup in matches and competitions that are played at unknown ranges out to 55 yards in the outdoors with varied shooting positions, weather conditions, inclinations, and targets, in the real field of shooting. Not from a bench, not at level placed targets, not in basements. Out, where it really counts.
Friends have been shooting with theirs for months, using scopes that are NOT airgun rated (AEON's and Müller's).

As we have already discussed, your "proof" of non-functioning lacks even the basic starting point of torquing to a VALUE with a GOOD TOOL; and again, I will tell you that you may or may not get the proper torque to even "seat" the rings to the scope (all top halves of rings are somewhat flexible) using the "short end of the allen wrench" recipe as a guide.

But you insist on complaining when you do not even know if you have a 1st gen or a 2nd gen mounts.

As I posted, the 2nd gen mounts have proved to have even more problems than the 1st. At least one Sightron (a VERY good scope), has needed to go back to factory.

How to differentiate between the generations of mounts?.- The long pins where the floating section moves. The 1st generation had pins that are 0.237", while the 2nd gen has pins that are 0.257"

Let's start then with FACTS. Measure your pins and let's take it from there.  ¿OK?






HM

[Charles Outdoors]

I got my mount yesterday. Been raining here all week so I set up a target outside, mounted a scope and shot out a window. I did not want to use the stop pin because I don't want to booger up the stop pin hole on my receiver which is much larger than the pin. First problem I found was when I tightened the scope down on the mount it tweaks the mounts and locks up the sliding mechanism where it won't move. It also moved back on the rail an 1/8 inch after about 7-8 shots. Then again it was locked up and more like a normal mount at the time.


Got tired of messing with it last night. Trying to get the scope rings tightened down without binding the mounts is the problem now.

Also the my BSA scope has a screw coming out at an angle on the bottom and will not clear the mount even using the 30mm mount with 1 inch adapter inserts. But I didn't really expect that one to work with it.

This Theoben gas ram has a very quick shot cycle and I understand now why Weirauch recommends a Dampa Mount. My thought was the ZR Mount would be even better than the Dampa Mount. Did not expect the ZR mount to be such a pain to set up and get working. Other than that it seems like a very well made mount that would hold zero not problem, once I get it working. 

 

[Charles Outdoors]

 
 Here's my opinion on the mount. Not sure yet. Seems the 30mm to 1 inch adapters are causing my binding. Was able to spin one set of adapters, swapping top to bottom and freed up the mount on the last scope I tried. Started raining again or I would test it out tonight.


  Clamping the scope to the mount causes the mount to bind and not slide in most cases. Not talking from low clearance in the middle. I have better than 1/8 clearance. Seems every scope I mounted was a little different.


  I put about 75 pellets through the HW90 with it mounted and no stop pin without it slipping. I just had to push the base the last 1/8 to 1/4 inch forward to seat it back in place. I thought I had it completely working, but it started binding again. This could be caused from using the 30mm to 1 inch adapters. Not sure.