Does the Diana Bullseye Z R mount WORK?

[mpbby]

To my case, all in 1" and the Hawke 4x32 fits fine.

At first, dealing with the built in droop compensation and to avoid to bend the 350 barrel, I tried by shimming the scope, and only at the front ring.  Then, when I've tightened the rings' screws the ZR didn't slide anymore. I think it has produced a kind of ZR twist. So, I gave up about shimming and went to bend the barrel.

When you have the back and front adaptors with slight different thickness, it seems similar, and some twist could also occur.     

If there is a misalignment between scope and ZR, I think the ZR twist would be proportional to the torque being applied to the rings' screws.  So, to these circumstances, if you retighten the rings' screws, an inexistent bind may happen.

Just thinking.

[mpbby]

Hector.

1st generation..
 
Evidence 1: ("as far as I know") - about an year AGO, in April/15, and focusing on my ZR spring…, I was unable to decide if the white arrow should point to the front or to the back.  At that time, April/15, you kindly explained to me how the ZR works. Most probably, there wasn't yet a 2nd generation.  Evidence 2: - with my CHEAP caliper, it shows 0.23" to the silver pins' diameter.  So, and if you agree, I think we may assume it's actually the 1st generation.

About the "short end of the allen wrench" torque at the rings' screws allowing the scope slippage, I've already joked with you .. "to an almost zero recoil, even an almost zero torque should be enough..".  Seriously, for the very same right hand fingers and allen wrench, the "red neck" torque "value" has usually worked fine to several scopes (including heavier) and mounts (including regular), so, those scopes slippage on the ZR were a bad surprise to me.
 
Sincerely, I think we are walking on circles, and we should not keep arguing about what I'm going to permit myself to call .. these "side issues".

Just to allow us to think beyond the above, let's assume we can take for granted: - the scope fits ok (even 30mm with 1" adaptors), we can deal with the built in compensation for downwards droop, we have a GOOD tool to torque the rings' screws and we have achieved repeatability, even to ABSOLUTE accuracy.  To simplify even more, let's say we only shoot indoors, very well rested, leveled targets, at 20 yards, etc.

Now, let's assume we have a reliable rifle (huge recoil), a brand new reliable scope (airgun rated or NOT) and should have a reliable ZR; regarding the "almost zero" recoil feature, or, at least, and would be fine to me, a HUGE reduction from the "original" recoil. 

The thing is - we all don't want to put a scope on the ZR to find out - IF - the scope is going to last reliable to a huge number of rounds.   

Yours and your friends field evidences sounds good to me, but inconclusive.  Maybe, even under heavy recoils some of the airgun rated scopes are being able to resist by themselves?  Maybe, to the rifles with the NOT airgun rated scopes, the 2nd recoil timing matches the 'floating period' and, circumstantially, the ZR is working fine, but it could not happen to other rifles? Maybe, Diana has done tests only with "very few" scopes/rifles (including the 54), and has assumed it will work "in general"?  Maybe, the floating period varies according to the scope's weight?

Off course, I'm just guessing, but if we are not able to find a way to trustable measuring the actual recoils, for instance, among a combination of different scopes' weights, on different fpe rifles, I can't think about being really confident on the real efficacy of the ZR, and under different circumstances.

As we already have talked about, technically, we could do that with an ACCELEROMETER attached to the scope.  First with the scope on a regular mount – the full original recoil, then, on the ZR – the “resulting” recoil.  Unfortunately, I don’t have the "equipment", and, even if I had, I'm not skilled to execute RELIABLE tests.

Going ahead, if we could measure the recoils and find out the ZR is not working when it should, maybe, and for instance, we could "tune" the ZR spring (and/or the VERY viscous fluid..) in order to test the mismatch hypothesis? Maybe the high viscosity was thought to extend the 'floating period'? To lessen the speed during the round trip to battery?

Marcos

[ISYSeattle]

Hi Hector,

Do you still sell the accurized Gen 1 ZR mounts, I can find anything on your CCA Products page? If not, I see that Krale is selling ZR mounts, presumably Gen II. Is there any reason they can't be re-lubed with something lighter to get the same or better performance as the Gen I model?

Thanks.

[phoebeisis]

Wow

So Hector you can make GEN 1 work-
1) deliver repeatable accuracy
2) and they apparently protect scopes from breakage as delivered

But you have found GEN 2 which is probably all we can readily buy now
1) deliver good accuracy as delivered
2) but BREAK SCOPES as delivered -in essence don't WORK

and you think the extremely viscous lubricant in Gen 2 might be the culprit-too viscous so they don't allow the scope base relative acceleration to be enough-so the scope gets "jerked" a bit when it should be sitting still

A question- does the scope literally FLOAT in the lube?
 or do the SPRINGS sorta float  in  a heavy covering of the more viscous  lube-so the springs  don't expand   compress  as  quickly to allow plenty of relative scope to base movement- which will cause the scope to accelerate decelerate too fast-and BREAK


PS  Marcos has found scope slippage with what is probably a GEN 1-
the slippage certainly indicates plenty of acceleration-and the direction of slippage indicates it is the SECOND recoil-from the spring  BOUNCING moving backwards-
some from spring compression from slamming forward-
but some  from the high pressure in the barrel PUSHING it backwards-
the same thing that BREAKS springs -that dramatic  reversal  of spring direction-
Hector gave us a "seminar" on the why of heavier pellets being " worse spring breakers"

Springers are just odd-with that second reverse recoil-change of acceleration-"breaking stuff" scopes springs etc
We-someone- needs to catch that spring-prevent the reversal-
or VENT the chamber and barrel just before the spring touches down--
maybe use the high pressure air to keep the spring in place-vent it behind the piston almost perpetual motion like

[Charles Outdoors]

I assume I have the new gen II mount.  They operate more like a shock on a car. Not free and springy like you would think. I've been temped to spray a little WD-40 on mine, but the mount stayed in place on my HW90 without a stop pin and that is saying something right there. They may be using a small seal or cup like a little piston in the center tube to dampen the spring movement.

[mpbby]

Craymar.

I think is very good we all can do a kind of teamwork review about the ZR.  Trying to avoid eventual miscommunications I'll say the ZR has 3 main parts: a) the base with 3 rings to attach to the rifle, and with a stop pin (base); b) the sliding car with the rings (car); c) the ZR spring.

After Hector explained to me in April/15 the IDEA behind the project, I currently understand as follows.

To simplify, let's assume the base is firmly attached to the rifle, even without using the stop pin - and - the scope is firmly attached to the (car) rings with a proper torque value at the rings' screws. 

Also trying to be focused on only about the ZR efficacy ("almost zero recoil"), let's also disregard about the vibrations that occur besides the recoils - and - let's consider the eventual rebound due power and piston weight x pellet weight, etc., as just being part of the '2nd recoil'.

Although the ZR spring has some cushioning effect when the car is sliding forward (relatively to the base), let's also disregard it.  It would not be the main purpose the spring is there.

When you have the first recoil of the rifle, as the PB guns, it goes backward. By inertia, the scope tends to remain at the same place and forces the car forward (relatively to the base and the rifle).  The car presses the ZR spring and starts to move forward, relatively to the base and rifle.
 
The car's round trip, while in motion, is what I call the (car and scope) "floating period".   

To the ZR be actually useful, when the 2nd and harsher recoil happens, the car has to be still in motion, during the "floating period".  If you have this match, while car and scope are still "floating" without a rigid point of support, the 2nd recoil should not be hardly transmitted to the scope internals.

If you agree with this understanding, although some modifications, I think the IDEA behind the Gen II remains the same. 

Anyway, it would be interesting to analyze WHY these modifications were introduced in Gen II, as it should help us to identify and understand some possible ZR malfunctions.

Marcos   

[Charles Outdoors]

I give up on that mount. It's going back. I had it working, then it started hanging and not sliding freely. Noticed it because my scope started loosing AO focus after every shot from the HW90's shot cycle. I think I'm done with the HW90 too. A 17 FPE gun should not be such a problem to put a scope on.

[mpbby]

Besides the HW90, I see you have the 125, the 48.. and you like to shoot scoped.

I don't know about the Gen II, but if I were you I will try to disassemble it, clean and lube the pins, to have it sliding freely.  I already did it with the Gen I and was a very simple and easy task.

If the 2nd recoil actually matches the floating period, I think the idea is wonderful in order to neutralize it.

In my airgun learning curve, I'm getting used to be very patient and persistent. 

[HectorMedina]

The TRUTH is that sometimes we ask for too much.

I do not know if anyone has an inside track into cheap accelerometers (not phone-softwared), but those are not inexpensive. So, spending upwards of $300 just to test something for someone seems like a bad business decision to me, SORRY!.

What I DID think about was that the MAIN point of contention between Marcos and myself is that I cannot take seriously the "tighten with the short end of the allen wrench recipe". To ME, that is just old wives' tales. If someone has sore fingers from playing with his dolls, then the whole thing goes haywire! ¿What sort of advice is that?
I am sure it was well intentioned and basically issued to protect the inexpensive scopes so prevalent in the airgun world, BUT a scope that cannot take a decent torque without denting, REALLY DOES NOT BELONG IN A PISTON AIRGUN.

So, I went and bought a FAT Wrench (FAT stands, supposedly, for Firearms Accurizing Torque). Basically it is a screwdriver shaped torque meter that accepts hex bits like we use in all the interchangeable bit drivers. What drew me to that, was it was the only fairly economical device that offered a calibration certificate.

Since I am working on creating a "Universal Rifle" that will do everything a reasonable airgun can do, I had ahead of me a torture test of some components inside the gun ("torture test" for CCA means 300 shots fired over the course of a morning, or afternoon, about 4 hours). We have found that components that survive this test usually survive well into years of common usage by FT shooters and that means decades of usage by hobby airgunners. So, it is our standard test of "endurance".

And I thought I would use the opportunity to test an idea: Start with the LOWEST setting on a torque wrench (in this case, the 10 in-lbs. setting has been calibrated by the manufacturer to be in reality 10.4 in-lbs), and shoot a lot with the  ZR mounts in a D54 and see if the scope crept in either direction. IF the scope crept I was prepared to go to 12½ in-lbs and see if it crept; if it crept, then I would go to 15 in-lbs. and see what happened there. Since 15 in-lbs is what "economy" scope makers think is the max they want their scopes torqued to, I would stop there for public consumption, but I would test at 20, 25, 30 and 35 in-lbs, which is the value that good scopes can take.

So I gathered all the necessary equipment:


A close up of the rings and the scope:


The scope in question is a Sightron Benchrest 36X42 scope http://info.sightron.com/Riflescopes/SII-Series/SII36x42BRD/ it is a 1" scope and in no way is it too light, nor too strong. I would say it is the most "garden variety" of the scopes in the Sightron line.

I degreased ALL mating surfaces with Lacquer Thinner:


Do note how much "GUNK" came out with the degreasing. All this gunk can and will aid the scope in slipping the rings. Once the scope and the rings are clean DO NOT TOUCH THEM!

DISCLAIMER.-  Newer scopes have finishes that are not as resistant, so do NOT use lacquer thinner, but use rubbing alcohol to degrease instead.

Set my FAT wrench to the 10 in-lbs value planned:


And set the BASE screws to that torque:


To make it easy to detect if the BASE had slipped I aligned the front of the base to the end of the rail:


And then using just TWO fingers, I started tightening the ring screws in a zig-zag pattern. It is IMPORTANT to NEVER tighten a screw more than 1/16th of a turn. Then move over and to the next screw, then over and to the next. Viewed from above it is a zig-zag that goes across the scope tube 7 times.


If you tighten one screw more than the counterpart of the opposite side, the scope may twist, and when it twists, it locks the slide. I have also found scopes that are NOT STRAIGHT, especially those that are made in 3 parts (foretube, afttube and saddle).

IF a freely sliding ZR Mount locks, SOMETHING IS WRONG. Back off and analyze calmly what may be wrong. The Gen 1 ZR mounts slide freely, the Gen 2 need complete disassembly, then cleaning with Lacquer Thinner, and then you're back toa "functioning" ZR mount.

Anyway, continuing:
After ALL the screws have been snugged down EVENLY, then you start torqueing the screws into place:


Again, FOLLOW the Zig-Zag pattern!

And when the wrench "cracks", go back two or three times around all the 8 screws to make sure that you have not missed or stressed any screw above any other.

After I finished torqueing all the screws to the LOWEST setting possible, I made two "witness marks" in the scope with white grease china marker:


And then I proceeded to shoot.

After the first 10 shots, nothing had moved.

After the first 50 shots, nothing had moved.

I stopped worrying and proceeded with the 300 shots test, this is the result:


As you can see, NOTHING MOVED.

I cannot stress enough that in airgunning what seems simple is, usually, an illusion.

The most basic things like tightening a screw can have repercussions in how the whole system behaves.

That is why there are a LOT of "EXPERTS" out there, but very few Pros.

Anyway, I hope this helps in making a good idea more functional to the majority of shooters.

Keep well and shoot straight!







Héctor Medina

[HectorMedina]

Hi Hector,

Do you still sell the accurized Gen 1 ZR mounts, I can find anything on your CCA Products page? If not, I see that Krale is selling ZR mounts, presumably Gen II. Is there any reason they can't be re-lubed with something lighter to get the same or better performance as the Gen I model?

Thanks.

Dave;

Send me an EMail through the contact page of my website.

Thanks in advance!






Héctor

[phoebeisis]

Wow
Not simple-and some scopes take barely more than 1 lb ft  15 in lbs-not much.
Waaay back when-when I learned to "fix" a flat tire-we cross torqued the lug nuts
Of course we didn't actually Torque wrench them-but same idea-
Thanks Hector Marcos
Charlie

[ISYSeattle]

Hi Hector,

Do you still sell the accurized Gen 1 ZR mounts, I can find anything on your CCA Products page? If not, I see that Krale is selling ZR mounts, presumably Gen II. Is there any reason they can't be re-lubed with something lighter to get the same or better performance as the Gen I model?

Thanks.

Just did, thanks Hector.
Dave;

Send me an EMail through the contact page of my website.

Thanks in advance!






Héctor

[mpbby]

Héctor, thank you for all the information.

In order to know about the truth regarding the ZR actual efficacy in different scenarios (almost zero recoil), besides the different scopes/rifles, we need skilled people and additional equipment with inherent reliability.  This is necessary to achieve reliable results.  I think Diana, as a respectable brand, should have done all that, instead just the ‘plausible sounding’.

As we can’t find many customers’ reviews, it seems the ZR sales are not doing fine.  In order to increase sales, Diana could realize that .. better late than never.  While Diana doesn’t do the homework and/or tell us, at least we can think.   Although our limitations, we have here a rare opportunity to do a kind of brainstorming, from different actual customers’, or potential customers, perspectives.

As we know, regarding reliability, we get what we pay for.  If we are not able and/or motivated to actually pay to obtain reliable results by ourselves, we can still try to find something useful, at least in the field of ideas.

By now, it seems to be the simpler and shorter way to know the truth.  Through a direct assessment, an accelerometer may be attached to the scope in order to show us, to certain scope on certain rifle, what’s actually happening regarding recoils.  Doing this to a wide range of scopes/rifles combinations, the potential ZR customers could have a fair idea, in advance, about what to expect from the ZR, if/when on their own combination(s).

About trying to increase the ZR sales, instead Diana, maybe Umarex would be motivated to do the homework, or to finance skilled people in the USA to do it?

While scopes stay unprotected, the scopes’ manufacturers have their costs to keep replacing them.  Maybe, they should be motivated about financing skilled people to do the job? 

Considering Diana, Umarex, vendors, scopes’ manufacturers and – us, the springers (!!), we may have a win-win-win-win-win situation!

Just some thoughts.

Marcos

[phoebeisis]

I'm pretty sure I saw a low resolution video-Hector's maybe
of a Z R mount in action-it didn't visibly move

 high frames per second  video might be  more satisfying than  an  accelerometer-it would have to be many many frames per second-1000 or so maybe-with slo-mo  playback feature

[mpbby]

Recoils are forces.

No matter the resolution, on videos you are looking for movements.  Movements are tricky regarding forces.  You may have situations with no movements at all, and still forces acting.  You may have other situations with a lot of movement and no forces that matter to you.

Always, no matter movements, when there is a force there is its respective acceleration.  When forces change, the accelerations change.  With an appropriated accelerometer, managed by skilled people, you don't need to see or feel, just get the (reliable) numbers to know the accelerations that matter to you, and the respective forces.

Knowing the forces acting upon the scope you will know about the resulting recoils for each kind of mount.

To a certain scope on a certain rifle, doing that for a regular mount - and - to a "dampening" mount (way to say), you will know how much the scope would be protected.

Just as I understand it.

[Beta_ver]

Hello all.
I first want to thank HectorMedina for his mounting instructions, it helped a lot establishing a base.
I have a ZR mount on a 56 TH and I'd like to share my experience.
Despite following the rules by the book for the mount, it had a weird behavior, I could only tighten the ring screws very slightly before the mount would lock, or it would slide freely then lock up after one to three shots. If I tightened all the screws to 1.2 n/M, I'd have to loosen one of them and that would free up the slide ... Something was definitely wrong.
Besides from the start I had a doubt as one of the guide bars was sticking out on one side more than the other, it was not moving so I did not worry that much, but that kept tickling my mind until ...
I decided to take it apart completely and I think I got the trick :
the lower rings have each 2 holes in which there is an allen screw holding the slide bars in place. The screw's end is pointy towards the slidebar.
Those screws did not have any loctite in them btw.
Each slide bar has a notch/gorge going around it's diameter at both ends.maybe less than a mm deep.
To achieve smooth motion :
The bars must not be locked by the screws.
As soon as the bars are locked, there will be issues as described above.
So for each screw, put loctite on it, screw it in until the point tip of the screw if placed exactly in the notch of the slide bar and tighten the screw, then loosen it until you feel you have lost contact with the slide bar, the point tip should still be in the notch, preventing forward/backward motion, but not locking the bar into place vs rotation.
Repeat the process for each screw, adjusting them so it just sits in the notch and wait 24 hours before using so the loctite dries.

Since I have done this, I could mount my scope without any problem on first try, all screws at a torque of 1.2 n/m, the mount slides perfectly and consistently, no more issues or hard points ever.

I hope this helps, I think there could be a lot of issues people have with these mounts just due to improper assembly or loose screws.

[Yogi]

Hello all.
I first want to thank HectorMedina for his mounting instructions, it helped a lot establishing a base.
I have a ZR mount on a 56 TH and I'd like to share my experience.
Despite following the rules by the book for the mount, it had a weird behavior, I could only tighten the ring screws very slightly before the mount would lock, or it would slide freely then lock up after one to three shots. If I tightened all the screws to 1.2 n/M, I'd have to loosen one of them and that would free up the slide ... Something was definitely wrong.
Besides from the start I had a doubt as one of the guide bars was sticking out on one side more than the other, it was not moving so I did not worry that much, but that kept tickling my mind until ...
I decided to take it apart completely and I think I got the trick :
the lower rings have each 2 holes in which there is an allen screw holding the slide bars in place. The screw's end is pointy towards the slidebar.
Those screws did not have any loctite in them btw.
Each slide bar has a notch/gorge going around it's diameter at both ends.maybe less than a mm deep.
To achieve smooth motion :
The bars must not be locked by the screws.
As soon as the bars are locked, there will be issues as described above.
So for each screw, put loctite on it, screw it in until the point tip of the screw if placed exactly in the notch of the slide bar and tighten the screw, then loosen it until you fell you have lost contact with the slide bar, the point tip should still be in the notch, preventing forward/backward motion, but not locking the bar into place vs rotation.
Repeat the process for each screw, adjusting them so it just sits in the notch and wait 24 hours before using so the loctite dries.

Since I have done this, I could mount my scope without any problem on first try, all screws at a torque of 1.2 n/m, the mount slides perfectly and consistently, no more issues or hard points ever.

I hope this helps, I think there could be a lot of issues people have with these mounts just due to improper assembly or loose screws.

Thanks for the post.

-Y

[phoebeisis]

Beta/ Christophe

Thanks for the post-so you   adjusted those allen screws-locktited them in place-and voile'

I'm still tinkering with my Hectorized Z R mount
It holds zero-even when I have it a bit too loose and it slides-
it seems to hold zero in my offhand shooting

I'm still tinkering-have to get an inch lb torque wrench
and I need to make smaller ada-probably doing 1/10 turn-not 1/16 as hector suggests

it is getting there-

[Beta_ver]

Beta/ Christophe

Thanks for the post-so you   adjusted those allen screws-locktited them in place-and voile'

I'm still tinkering with my Hectorized Z R mount
It holds zero-even when I have it a bit too loose and it slides-
it seems to hold zero in my offhand shooting

I'm still tinkering-have to get an inch lb torque wrench
and I need to make smaller ada-probably doing 1/10 turn-not 1/16 as hector suggests

it is getting there-

Exactly. If your screws are not exactly into place, just holding the slide bars from forward/rear movement while not locking the bars, then you'll have problems.
Take it apart, no big deal really, once you see it you'll get it. Easy, screw and tighten each screw inside the ditch and loosen until the contact with the slide bar is lost but yet the screw pointed tip is still inside the ditch so it can't move forward/back. Do it for each screw one after the other.
inch lb torque wrench is a must anyways, so yeah, good idea to get one.

Again, once you get how it works, it's really no big deal, experiment without the loctite at first, when you put it together and do the adjustments, you can explore what I say, you'll see each time you lock one of the slide bars end with those screws things start to stiffen and lock up.
On the opposite, once you get this right, it all becomes much easier, just mount the scope as per best practices (torque, max turn rate per cycle, tightening pattern ...) and it just works !
At least it did for me ...

Think of it, we are using this on springers, and those screws are not locked, what else but trouble could we expect ?

PS : The slide bars won't rotate once it's all put together, you can't really tell the difference between a properly mounted ZR and a screwy one when it's mounted.
PPS : this probably won't impact your POI, although on a 54/56 it could by inducing different inertial forces due to irregular sliding thus influencing the way the cannon moves back, but it would be minor. As long as the ZR snaps back into it's home position, the lineup is made by the little bit sticking out on the rear of the front mount, even if the zr doesn't slide properly.
Well, it won't impact your POI until your scope dies because the ZR is not playing it's role.

[Beta_ver]

More detail on putting it back together.
Take the front mount and put both slide bars in place and adjust the screws. Both bars you can rotate at this stage, but not move them back and forth at all if you adjusted the screws right.
Now you'll have to slide the bars into the ZR frame and put the rear ring with the spring on the slide bars.
Since there is the spring there will be force that tends to move the rear mount ring out and away from the bars, so you'll have to compensate by pushing the rear mount ring forward when you adjust it's screws to fall into the slide bars ditch. It's a bit trickier but you will know right away when it's too tight, the mount will stiffen.
If it stiffens even just a bit, then one of the screws is too tight and problems will amplify when you mount the scope.
When both mount rings are installed and adjusted, you cannot rotate the bars as the spring is putting all this in pressure so the bars are locked in rotation as well, but they nevertheless can move/rotate during stress and/or torque efforts and that makes the difference I believe.
I hope this makes sense, good luck !