GTA
All Springer/NP/PCP Air Gun Discussion General => PCP/CO2/HPA Air Gun Gates "The Darkside" => Topic started by: UnderPressure on July 08, 2020, 06:43:20 PM
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What caliber do you think is the most versatile? (You can specify twist rate also if you want to)
P.S. I'm still thinking about it......IMO being able to limit range and ricochet potential is an important consideration.
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A .25 caliber is my personal favorite for versatility.
However I can shoot my .357 with slugs for the same cost.........
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For airgunning for me it’s the .22 so many pellets to choose from... I don’t go after critters bigger than chucks with my PCP. So the .22 is king in my lineup.
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.30
can still be used on small game and also used correctly will bring down any big game
You can detune and shoot the 44gr Predators at 40 FPE which is 650 fps and that is quite safein just about any conditions.
Tune up to shoot the 50gr at 950 fps that is 100 FPE and you have a sniper dream.
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.30
can still be used on small game and also used correctly will bring down any big game
You can detune and shoot the 44gr Predators at 40 FPE which is 650 fps and that is quite safein just about any conditions.
Tune up to shoot the 50gr at 950 fps that is 100 FPE and you have a sniper dream.
Yeah cost aside tough to argue with .30 as you can shoot sparrow to hogs with it if you like.
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.30
can still be used on small game and also used correctly will bring down any big game
You can detune and shoot the 44gr Predators at 40 FPE which is 650 fps and that is quite safein just about any conditions.
Tune up to shoot the 50gr at 950 fps that is 100 FPE and you have a sniper dream.
Yeah cost aside tough to argue with .30 as you can shoot sparrow to hogs with it if you like.
yeah if you want the most versatile most likely will not have the cheapest ammo,...but I also have a .30 cal flat nose pellet mold that makes them in I think 3 or 4 weights.
More like from Sparrow to Elk :) :) :)
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Get something that has lots of adjustability like FX or Daystate there are others too. Then you can adjust to shoot what you want when you want too. These guns are definitely not cheap. If you get an FX rifle most allow you to change calibers. I can go from .177, .22, .25, .30. I bought my FX Crown because I thought it was the most versatile for me. I can change from a pellet barrel to a slug barrel. I think a caliber change runs about $500 +/- which is cheaper than a new gun of this quality. Good luck, lots of great info above.
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For the very low power part I am thinking of how the wadcutter form factor compares to the diabolo form factor:
(https://cdn.athlonoutdoors.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2020/02/Wadcutters_11_Hornady_Remington_Speer_148_HB.jpg)
(https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/02-06-20-02a-diabolo-pellets.jpg)
https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/drag-coefficient-and-ballistics-coefficient-explained/ (https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/drag-coefficient-and-ballistics-coefficient-explained/)
(https://hardairmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/HAM-1-Drag-Coefficients.jpg)
P.S. Wadcutter and Diabolo can be used for any caliber. This as a solid or any variation of hollowpoint. So no limitation there.
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.30
can still be used on small game and also used correctly will bring down any big game
You can detune and shoot the 44gr Predators at 40 FPE which is 650 fps and that is quite safein just about any conditions.
Tune up to shoot the 50gr at 950 fps that is 100 FPE and you have a sniper dream.
With all due respect 44 gr @ 40 FPE is not safe in many conditions. .30 pellets need the same consideration you would accord a .22 rimfire short in most conditions.
@Glem, sparrows with a .30 seems a waste of lead and that projectile will keep on going for a whiles after passing through said sparrows.
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.30
can still be used on small game and also used correctly will bring down any big game
You can detune and shoot the 44gr Predators at 40 FPE which is 650 fps and that is quite safein just about any conditions.
Tune up to shoot the 50gr at 950 fps that is 100 FPE and you have a sniper dream.
With all due respect 44 gr @ 40 FPE is not safe in many conditions. .30 pellets need the same consideration you would accord a .22 rimfire short in most conditions.
@Glem, sparrows with a .30 seems a waste of lead and that projectile will keep on going for a whiles after passing through said sparrows.
Well thats up to the shooter and the shot, if the slug ends up 200y in an open field who cares. Im not talking about shooting with a backdrop of a highway
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Torn between.25 and .30. I have a .25 that will go from 40 ft lbs to 90, shoots pellets or slugs. Have a .30 that will go from 75 to 120 ft lbs, pellets or slugs. I guess versatility is limited by your game size and how proficient you are with that particular choice. And if you intend to plink with it. The best of both worlds is to be able to change calibers on the same platform.
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.30
can still be used on small game and also used correctly will bring down any big game
You can detune and shoot the 44gr Predators at 40 FPE which is 650 fps and that is quite safein just about any conditions.
Tune up to shoot the 50gr at 950 fps that is 100 FPE and you have a sniper dream.
With all due respect 44 gr @ 40 FPE is not safe in many conditions. .30 pellets need the same consideration you would accord a .22 rimfire short in most conditions.
@Glem, sparrows with a .30 seems a waste of lead and that projectile will keep on going for a whiles after passing through said sparrows.
In the link below I plugged in numbers for 44.8 grain .300 caliber .340" long cylindrical wadcutter:
http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/cgi-bin/drag_working.cgi?unit_length=inches&weight_unit=grains&bullet_name=Custom+bullet&re_calculate=yes&boundary_layer=L%2FT&diameter=.300&length=.340&nose=0&meplat=.300&drive_band=.300&base_diameter=.300&angle=0&boat_tail=0&secant_radius=&weight=42.2&density=7.4 (http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/cgi-bin/drag_working.cgi?unit_length=inches&weight_unit=grains&bullet_name=Custom+bullet&re_calculate=yes&boundary_layer=L%2FT&diameter=.300&length=.340&nose=0&meplat=.300&drive_band=.300&base_diameter=.300&angle=0&boat_tail=0&secant_radius=&weight=42.2&density=7.4)
(I plugged in 7.4 gm per cc for density (which is tin's density) but I think hitting 44.8 grains with lead is attainable if the cylinder had a large hollow point or hollow base.)
Notice the B.C. for that 44.8 grain .30 is ~.030 at Mach .5 and ~.010 at Mach 1.
650 FPS is Mach .6 so the BC should still be around .030 because the drag doesn't increase until about mach .7.
44.8 grains @ 650 FPS= 42 FPE with BC of .030 as compared to what I found in the Hard Air Magazine BC database below:
https://hardairmagazine.com/ballistic-coefficients/ (https://hardairmagazine.com/ballistic-coefficients/)
.....which is .30 JSB Diabolo Pellet @ 50.15 grains and 610 FPS for 41.4 FPE and BC of .053
So 44.8 grain .30 cylindrical slug at 650 FPS compared to 50.15 grain .30 diabolo at 610 FPS has less than 60% of the BC.
That is a very significant BC reduction (in favor of the wadcutter) but 42 FPE is still a good amount of power.
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.30
can still be used on small game and also used correctly will bring down any big game
You can detune and shoot the 44gr Predators at 40 FPE which is 650 fps and that is quite safein just about any conditions.
Tune up to shoot the 50gr at 950 fps that is 100 FPE and you have a sniper dream.
With all due respect 44 gr @ 40 FPE is not safe in many conditions. .30 pellets need the same consideration you would accord a .22 rimfire short in most conditions.
@Glem, sparrows with a .30 seems a waste of lead and that projectile will keep on going for a whiles after passing through said sparrows.
Well thats up to the shooter and the shot, if the slug ends up 200y in an open field who cares. Im not talking about shooting with a backdrop of a highway
Glem, you are correct about the backdrop... my bad.
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.30
can still be used on small game and also used correctly will bring down any big game
You can detune and shoot the 44gr Predators at 40 FPE which is 650 fps and that is quite safein just about any conditions.
Tune up to shoot the 50gr at 950 fps that is 100 FPE and you have a sniper dream.
With all due respect 44 gr @ 40 FPE is not safe in many conditions. .30 pellets need the same consideration you would accord a .22 rimfire short in most conditions.
@Glem, sparrows with a .30 seems a waste of lead and that projectile will keep on going for a whiles after passing through said sparrows.
Well thats up to the shooter and the shot, if the slug ends up 200y in an open field who cares. Im not talking about shooting with a backdrop of a highway
Glem, you are correct about the backdrop... my bad.
All good brother and I see your side too, i couldn't take half those shots at the farm on rats if i was shooting a .30 even at 500 fps. Lots of concrete and perfect conditions for a 44gr bowling ball bouncing down the lane.
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.30
I
can still be used on small game and also used correctly will bring down any big game
You can detune and shoot the 44gr Predators at 40 FPE which is 650 fps and that is quite safein just about any conditions.
Tune up to shoot the 50gr at 950 fps that is 100 FPE and you have a sniper dream.
With all due respect 44 gr @ 40 FPE is not safe in many conditions. .30 pellets need the same consideration you would accord a .22 rimfire short in most conditions.
@Glem, sparrows with a .30 seems a waste of lead and that projectile will keep on going for a whiles after passing through said sparrows.
In the link below I plugged in numbers for 44.8 grain .300 caliber .340" long cylindrical wadcutter:
http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/cgi-bin/drag_working.cgi?unit_length=inches&weight_unit=grains&bullet_name=Custom+bullet&re_calculate=yes&boundary_layer=L%2FT&diameter=.300&length=.340&nose=0&meplat=.300&drive_band=.300&base_diameter=.300&angle=0&boat_tail=0&secant_radius=&weight=42.2&density=7.4 (http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/cgi-bin/drag_working.cgi?unit_length=inches&weight_unit=grains&bullet_name=Custom+bullet&re_calculate=yes&boundary_layer=L%2FT&diameter=.300&length=.340&nose=0&meplat=.300&drive_band=.300&base_diameter=.300&angle=0&boat_tail=0&secant_radius=&weight=42.2&density=7.4)
(I plugged in 7.4 grain per cc for density (which is tin's density) but I think hitting 44.8 grains with lead is attainable if the cylinder had a large hollow point or hollow base.)
Notice the B.C. for that 44.8 grain .30 is ~.030 at Mach .5 and ~.010 at Mach 1.
650 FPS is Mach .6 so the BC should still be around .030 because the drag doesn't increase until about mach .7.
42 FPE @ 650 FPS with BC of .030 as compared to what I found in the Hard Air Magazine BC database below:
https://hardairmagazine.com/ballistic-coefficients/ (https://hardairmagazine.com/ballistic-coefficients/)
.....which is .30 JSB Diabolo Pellet @ 50.15 grains and 610 FPS for 41 FPE and BC of .053
So 44.8 grain .30 cylindrical slug at less than 1 FPE more energy as a 50 grain .30 diabolo has less than 60% of the BC.
That is very significant.
I'd go with the very versatile .30 caliber as well. With a detuned 650 fps and 45 grain pellet, it has a huge drop in energy from 42 fpe to less than 18 fpe at 100 yards. At 150 yards this hits with as much energy as a 12 foot pound gun leaves the barrel. A very good small game set-up for small critters at close range. Add a 60+ grain slug and tune for 950 fps and it will drop any big game with a well placed hed shot for meat on the table.
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.30 maybe ? ... in a lot of ways it depends on the gun .45 can be very versatile shooting 140g to 425g out of the right gun with different power settings / pressures xp ranger .45 and the texan i believe cover this ... ;)
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.30
can still be used on small game and also used correctly will bring down any big game
You can detune and shoot the 44gr Predators at 40 FPE which is 650 fps and that is quite safein just about any conditions.
Tune up to shoot the 50gr at 950 fps that is 100 FPE and you have a sniper dream.
With all due respect 44 gr @ 40 FPE is not safe in many conditions. .30 pellets need the same consideration you would accord a .22 rimfire short in most conditions.
@Glem, sparrows with a .30 seems a waste of lead and that projectile will keep on going for a whiles after passing through said sparrows.
Well thats up to the shooter and the shot, if the slug ends up 200y in an open field who cares. Im not talking about shooting with a backdrop of a highway
Glem, you are correct about the backdrop... my bad.
All good brother and I see your side too, i couldn't take half those shots at the farm on rats if i was shooting a .30 even at 500 fps. Lots of concrete and perfect conditions for a 44gr bowling ball bouncing down the lane.
Yes, Ricochet is very important to consider also.
I think one way to help reduce that is to have a large deep (relatively thin walled) hollowpoint.....something to act as a crumble zone when hitting something hard.
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.30
I
can still be used on small game and also used correctly will bring down any big game
You can detune and shoot the 44gr Predators at 40 FPE which is 650 fps and that is quite safein just about any conditions.
Tune up to shoot the 50gr at 950 fps that is 100 FPE and you have a sniper dream.
With all due respect 44 gr @ 40 FPE is not safe in many conditions. .30 pellets need the same consideration you would accord a .22 rimfire short in most conditions.
@Glem, sparrows with a .30 seems a waste of lead and that projectile will keep on going for a whiles after passing through said sparrows.
In the link below I plugged in numbers for 44.8 grain .300 caliber .340" long cylindrical wadcutter:
http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/cgi-bin/drag_working.cgi?unit_length=inches&weight_unit=grains&bullet_name=Custom+bullet&re_calculate=yes&boundary_layer=L%2FT&diameter=.300&length=.340&nose=0&meplat=.300&drive_band=.300&base_diameter=.300&angle=0&boat_tail=0&secant_radius=&weight=42.2&density=7.4 (http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/cgi-bin/drag_working.cgi?unit_length=inches&weight_unit=grains&bullet_name=Custom+bullet&re_calculate=yes&boundary_layer=L%2FT&diameter=.300&length=.340&nose=0&meplat=.300&drive_band=.300&base_diameter=.300&angle=0&boat_tail=0&secant_radius=&weight=42.2&density=7.4)
(I plugged in 7.4 grain per cc for density (which is tin's density) but I think hitting 44.8 grains with lead is attainable if the cylinder had a large hollow point or hollow base.)
Notice the B.C. for that 44.8 grain .30 is ~.030 at Mach .5 and ~.010 at Mach 1.
650 FPS is Mach .6 so the BC should still be around .030 because the drag doesn't increase until about mach .7.
42 FPE @ 650 FPS with BC of .030 as compared to what I found in the Hard Air Magazine BC database below:
https://hardairmagazine.com/ballistic-coefficients/ (https://hardairmagazine.com/ballistic-coefficients/)
.....which is .30 JSB Diabolo Pellet @ 50.15 grains and 610 FPS for 41 FPE and BC of .053
So 44.8 grain .30 cylindrical slug at less than 1 FPE more energy as a 50 grain .30 diabolo has less than 60% of the BC.
That is very significant.
I'd go with the very versatile .30 caliber as well. With a detuned 650 fps and 45 grain pellet, it has a huge drop in energy from 42 fpe to less than 18 fpe at 100 yards. At 150 yards this hits with as much energy as a 12 foot pound gun leaves the barrel.
Yep, I got 18.4 FPE @ 100 yards when I plugged in 44.8 grain .30 cal @ 650 FPS (42 FPE muzzle energy) with BC of .030. (i.e. the Wadcutter slug)
This, in contrast to the 25.8 FPE @ 100 yards when I plugged in 50.15 grain .30 cal @ 610 FPS (41.45 FPE muzzle energy) with BC of .052. (i.e. Diabolo pellet)
So the diabolo pellet has 40% more energy at 100 yards compared to the wadcutter slug.
With that noted, it would be good to see the power even lower at 100 yards. This can be accomplished by lowering muzzle energy and BC even more....which is possible if the weight of the 44.8 grain .30 wadcutter can be reduced further.
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Pretty partial to .25. More than a few pellet designs/weight, plus slugs. Pick the right platform and you can go low for close range/low power pesting work, or crank it up and shoot slugs. I'm still testing, but I've got a .25 that's set up for 14+ fpe for quiet close range work, and I've owned .25's that have got a lot of chootch. Woodchucks out at 45 yards at 40 fpe easy.
The idea of a slow 14 fpe .25 is more surface area to completely dump the energy, and if there's pass through, it's not going to go far and/or damage much. I built it with the intent of having something for inside barns, stables and the like. Plus, if you get a wadcutter mold, all the better, as wadcutters will dump energy better than a domed pellet.
Just my 2 cents. ;D
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.30
I
can still be used on small game and also used correctly will bring down any big game
You can detune and shoot the 44gr Predators at 40 FPE which is 650 fps and that is quite safein just about any conditions.
Tune up to shoot the 50gr at 950 fps that is 100 FPE and you have a sniper dream.
With all due respect 44 gr @ 40 FPE is not safe in many conditions. .30 pellets need the same consideration you would accord a .22 rimfire short in most conditions.
@Glem, sparrows with a .30 seems a waste of lead and that projectile will keep on going for a whiles after passing through said sparrows.
In the link below I plugged in numbers for 44.8 grain .300 caliber .340" long cylindrical wadcutter:
http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/cgi-bin/drag_working.cgi?unit_length=inches&weight_unit=grains&bullet_name=Custom+bullet&re_calculate=yes&boundary_layer=L%2FT&diameter=.300&length=.340&nose=0&meplat=.300&drive_band=.300&base_diameter=.300&angle=0&boat_tail=0&secant_radius=&weight=42.2&density=7.4 (http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/cgi-bin/drag_working.cgi?unit_length=inches&weight_unit=grains&bullet_name=Custom+bullet&re_calculate=yes&boundary_layer=L%2FT&diameter=.300&length=.340&nose=0&meplat=.300&drive_band=.300&base_diameter=.300&angle=0&boat_tail=0&secant_radius=&weight=42.2&density=7.4)
(I plugged in 7.4 grain per cc for density (which is tin's density) but I think hitting 44.8 grains with lead is attainable if the cylinder had a large hollow point or hollow base.)
Notice the B.C. for that 44.8 grain .30 is ~.030 at Mach .5 and ~.010 at Mach 1.
650 FPS is Mach .6 so the BC should still be around .030 because the drag doesn't increase until about mach .7.
42 FPE @ 650 FPS with BC of .030 as compared to what I found in the Hard Air Magazine BC database below:
https://hardairmagazine.com/ballistic-coefficients/ (https://hardairmagazine.com/ballistic-coefficients/)
.....which is .30 JSB Diabolo Pellet @ 50.15 grains and 610 FPS for 41 FPE and BC of .053
So 44.8 grain .30 cylindrical slug at less than 1 FPE more energy as a 50 grain .30 diabolo has less than 60% of the BC.
That is very significant.
I'd go with the very versatile .30 caliber as well. With a detuned 650 fps and 45 grain pellet, it has a huge drop in energy from 42 fpe to less than 18 fpe at 100 yards. At 150 yards this hits with as much energy as a 12 foot pound gun leaves the barrel.
Yep, I got 18.4 FPE @ 100 yards when I plugged in 44.8 grain .30 cal @ 650 FPS (42 FPE muzzle energy) with BC of .030. (i.e. the Wadcutter slug)
This, in contrast to the 25.8 FPE @ 100 yards when I plugged in 50.15 grain .30 cal @ 610 FPS (41.45 FPE muzzle energy) with BC of .052. (i.e. Diabolo pellet)
So the diabolo pellet has 40% more energy at 100 yards compared to the wadcutter slug.
With that noted, it would be good to see the power even lower at 100 yards. This can be accomplished by lowering muzzle energy and BC even more....which is possible if the weight of the 44.8 grain .30 wadcutter can be reduced further.
So if take the .30 44.8 grain 650 FPS wadcutter slug (used in the above example) and reduce its weight to 33.6 grains we get the following stats:
33.6 grain .30 wadcutter slug
650 FPS
31.5 FPE muzzle energy
BC .0225
10.3 FPE 100 yard energy
So a pretty massive decrease in 100 yard energy just by reducing weight to 75% of what it used to be. (reason: not only does the weight reduction hurt the muzzle energy it also hurts the BC.)
EDIT: One more comparison.....well one more comparison for now.
From hard air magazine BC data base + JBM ballistics calculator:
https://hardairmagazine.com/ballistic-coefficients/ (https://hardairmagazine.com/ballistic-coefficients/)
https://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi (https://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi)
.177 JSB Exact Beat Diabolo 16.2 grain
716 FPS
18.45 FPE muzzle energy
BC .029
7.9 FPE 100 yard energy
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.25 unchoked barrel will shoot low power pellets and heavy weight slugs with plenty of range and good BC.
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.177 or .22 in that order in my opinion.
Personally, I don't think the bigger calibers are what airguns are all about. And certainly less versatile, if that's what this thread is still about.
I have shot a .30 caliber BullPack something, it looked and felt like a Bunn coffee maker knocked over on the bench. The recoil and racket was impressive, but I didn't see the point. Expensive to shoot, need to be sure of an extra solid backstop, uses a lot of air, low shot count and so on.
You can shoot a .177 or .22 about anywhere, and economically at that. I've hunted small game with them my whole life and have never needed more power. For field target .177 is the obvious choice as well.
I understand some guys like to hunt bigger things with airguns, and the bigger calibers shine there obviously. But even a lowly rimfire would usually shine brighter. And a .30 doesn't seem very versatile to me when you are trying to shoot starlings off a bird feeder in a suburban backyard. You know, like things you can't do with rimfires...
I guess I'm just getting older or stupider and left behind. But for doing what I consider airgun stuff, .177 or .22 works better for me.
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That's the all Idea of Versatile, ......something that can cover a wider spectrum.
.25 and .30 are best
.25 can cover a big power range and shoot a wide variety of ammo
.30 can cover a big power range and shoot a variety of ammo, but not as extensive as the .25
Both can be used to hunt from the smallest game to the biggest game, ...versatility.
you can make all the arguments for .17 and .22 but the spectrum is significantly more limited ,..therefore less versatile.
Someone mentioned .45, ....same thing, great for a smaller spectrum therefore less versatile.
Today's .25s and .30s are definitely the most versatile with the wide power spectrum they cover and the great ammo selection to feed them.
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It's not all about hunting big game. Many airgun owners shoot paper or plink with their .177 and .22 airguns and are happy with that. If we want to add duties .22 goes well for small game and pests with pellets. We can up the potential of the caliber with proper bullets and reach the efficiency and range of a .22lr round. Pellets are cheap for plinking, bullets can be cast or slugs bought, most guns can make decent power, air usage is conservative and you can hunt up to medium size game or just plink in your backyard - I'd say .22/.222 is the most versatile caliber out there.
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My reasoning for getting into the airgunning game was/is to shoot more. I shoot hundreds of pellets per week, I couldn’t afford to do that with a .25 or .30. Plus, the larger calibers are less practical in the fact that they produce higher energy levels. Which require in most cases the same precautions as when shooting a .22 rimfire. With a .22 you I can take critters up to Racoon size (sub 50 yards) or sparrows and rats in the barn. If I need more power? I reach for my .22 rimfire. IMHO, the .22 is hard to beat for “versatility “.
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That's the all Idea of Versatile, ......something that can cover a wider spectrum.
.25 and .30 are best
.25 can cover a big power range and shoot a wide variety of ammo
.30 can cover a big power range and shoot a variety of ammo, but not as extensive as the .25
Both can be used to hunt from the smallest game to the biggest game, ...versatility.
you can make all the arguments for .17 and .22 but the spectrum is significantly more limited ,..therefore less versatile.
Someone mentioned .45, ....same thing, great for a smaller spectrum therefore less versatile.
Today's .25s and .30s are definitely the most versatile with the wide power spectrum they cover and the great ammo selection to feed them.
How about the price of said projectiles?
Sparrows with a .25 or .30? I guess, but heck a .177 would be as effective.
The “power” part of the “versatility scale” is being skewed. If all you do with your PCPs is hunt? Have at it. But, if you plink, target shoot, pest or hunt small game, all with the same gun? How do the big calibers compare in those fields? And I’m talking shooting thousands of pellets per year. Lots of air gunners discover that they can do a lot with a .177 or .22 then they up the ante and start chasing rimfire energy levels? Which puts many constraints on where you can deployed said PCP. How is that more “versatile”?
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How about the price of said projectiles?
Sparrows with a .25 or .30? I guess, but heck a .177 would be as effective.
The “power” part of the “versatility scale” is being skewed. If all you do with your PCPs is hunt? Have at it. But, if you plink, target shoot, pest or hunt small game, all with the same gun? How do the big calibers compare in those fields? And I’m talking shooting thousands of pellets per year. Lots of air gunners discover that they can do a lot with a .177 or .22 then they up the ante and start chasing rimfire energy levels? Which puts many constraints on where you can deployed said PCP. How is that more “versatile”?
You're absolutely right about cost- you just can't beat the cost of .177 vs. .25. I wonder how much a tin of .177 vs .25 would weigh though. Not with the tin itself. Just the pellets. I wonder if it's the same amount of lead. Bah. Moot point.
Well, the OP mentioned penetration and ricochet... say you've got a .177 and a .25 both shooting 14 fpe. A .177 will have pass-through but the .25 will usually not (depends mainly on target density/type). So that's one way to look at things- they are both able to kill, sure- but the .25 checks off a few more boxes than the .177 in this case.
You mention versatility with regard to higher power levels and larger calibers? Well, for those of us who don't live in *ahem* "more free" states (i.e. gun friendly), higher power, easily suppressed (w/o the rigmarole of suppressor legalities) airguns may be needed... There's also the fact that with pellets (probably to some extent slugs as well), you're not going to get the range as a PB. I have a .357 that does 140 fpe. Not a backyard gun by any means. But 140 fpe is more than some 22LR cartridges, makes a bigger hole, and my .357 shooting pellets will travel far less distance, and does far less damage at distance. Ergo, .357 pellet shooter is safer to use than a .22LR. Plus, it's far more quiet than a .22LR when suppressed. At least my build is. For me, there's a growing coyote problem on a family-owned property. I can eliminate that threat, and no one will be the wiser- something I cannot do w/a PB. I could also turn around and do long range target shooting/plinking and such. Is the .357 as versatile as a .25? No. But to say the higher power big bores aren't versatile, is wrong. A more accurate statement would be "higher power big bores are not versatile for me".
The bottom line, is that there is no true "best all around caliber" because there are a few things that aren't mentioned- what is the spectrum of intended activities this "best caliber" is supposed to be doing? Where do you live- city? Country? These are the few variables that need to laid out before any real discussion of "perfect caliber" can be discussed. Otherwise, we're just slingin' opinions around and that leads to more arguments than actual discussions... Just sayin'. ;)
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I'm with Luis - more than 99% of my shots are not at a critter, but at paper targets and spinners I have set up with an appropriate backstop, and so far all of it has been at my home in a neighborhood with lots that run around an acre or so. In fact, over the course of a year, probably 80% or more of my shooting is at paper in my basement (I am blessed with a 21 yard indoor shooting range). I have .177, .22, and .25, and the bulk of my shooting is with the .22 caliber, mostly because it is the most versatile.
If it were not for the fact that a portion of that 1% is at groundhogs, I would make do just fine with a .177, but I really need the .22 for that (and the .25 is justified by and preferred for that purpose). I see no use in my world for a .30 cal or larger in the airgun world . . .
So I would say the .22 is the most versatile for me, as it is the one of the three that I could use for almost everything, although there are things that my .177 HW-30S just can't be beat at, so I would not want to be without it unless necessary - which thankfully is not the case. It is tough to get the .22s down into the ~7 FPE range.
By the way, I also find great use from airsoft for getting the deer out of the yard - I would not use any pellet or bb gun for that purpose. They sure take off when you pop them with some high rate full auto fire . . . . ;)
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Well, the OP mentioned penetration and ricochet... say you've got a .177 and a .25 both shooting 14 fpe. A .177 will have pass-through but the .25 will usually not (depends mainly on target density/type). So that's one way to look at things- they are both able to kill, sure- but the .25 checks off a few more boxes than the .177 in this case.
The bottom line, is that there is no true "best all around caliber" because the thing that wasn't mentioned is what is the spectrum of intended activities this best caliber is supposed to be doing? Where do you live- city? Country? There's a few variables that need to laid out before any real discussion of "perfect caliber" can be discussed. Just sayin'. ;)
How many of you are shooting a 14fpe .25 or .30 cal? Seriously.
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How many of you are shooting a 14fpe .25 or .30 cal? Seriously.
I am. I built a gun to specifically do that. It's pretty accurate so far too. The gun has a specific purpose- "indoor" (barn, large out buildings, warehouse, etc.) and close range pest elimination, with over-penetration in mind. If I get pass-through, I don't want there to be much, if any, damage to what's behind said target. It's not meant for anything beyond 30 yards- and even that is stretching it. I would NOT build this type of gun in .30. Although, I wouldn't mind experimenting... ;D
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And that is the all idea in versatile,
You can if you want cover much more basis with the spectrum that today's .25s and .30s offer you.
if all you do is plink target shoot in your yard agrre with you that .22 or even better .177 are best,....but you are talking of a dedicated one purpose gun, and that is perfectly fine.
Cost od ammo is relative too since today there's a huge availability of molds and you can cast your own.
Again both .25 and .30 can be detuned significantly to make them perfectly safe to shoot targets even in a small yard, and then can be powered up again to shoot targets at 200 yards, and that is,....versatility as well as hunting capability.
Vessatility is the ability to cover the wider spectrum of applications possible , so middle ground is always better, with a .30 I can do what both a .177 and a .45 do
with a .177 I cannot do what a .45 do and with a .45 I would not try to do what a .177 does :) :) LOL
if you have to pick up a .22 LR to do what your .177 or .22 can't do then they lack versatility ;) ;)
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I can't think of one caliber I would use for every situation. The versatility comes from having different calibers.
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One of those guys as well...at least with one .25.
But I don't see the .25 or .30 as real versitile sub 20 foot pound caliber. If you're a need for low-n-slow AND the ability to go reasonably fast....22.
Although you'd be better off with more than one rifle rather than tryng to do everything with one.
If there were an "all around" perfect rifle, NEVER post about it....my wife would see it....I'd have no reason for any other rifle.
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If the .177 "owns" the low end...and .25 best for the high energy end.....then the .22 is just the compromise caliber (back in the day, where the 5mm once lived)
If .30 is the best all around, then both the .22 and .25 are the middle-children.
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I can't think of one caliber I would use for every situation. The versatility comes from having different calibers.
That's even better :) :) :)
That's why FX and other brands are putting so much into the barrel swapping designs.
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I can't think of one caliber I would use for every situation. The versatility comes from having different calibers.
That's even better :) :) :)
That's why FX and other brands are putting so much into the barrel swapping designs.
I am not a big fan of multiuse guns and barrel swapping, although I am all into this with an Impact currently and am doing just that. At least the Impact makes the task of caliber swapping fairly painless, if keeping a few notes. I would still rather just grab a caliber selection that is ready to go already.
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I can't think of one caliber I would use for every situation. The versatility comes from having different calibers.
That's even better :) :) :)
That's why FX and other brands are putting so much into the barrel swapping designs.
I am not a big fan of multiuse guns and barrel swapping, although I am all into this with an Impact currently and am doing just that. At least the Impact makes the task of barrel swapping fairly painless, if keeping a few notes. I would still rather just grab and go with the caliber selection all ready to go.
Agree, looked into it myself and backed away,
rather have different guns in different calibers,..as you can see :)
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Cost of ammo is relative too since today there's a huge availability of molds and you can cast your own.
People always talk of casting as a low cost way to get ammo, but forget the "cost" of our time to do it (and of course the equipment to do it too). There is no way that I can come up with the time to cast what I want to shoot, and doing so would in fact quite literally cost me more than the cost of purchasing the ammo.
Maybe when I retire I might give it a try, but certainly not until then . . . . so for now purchased pellets and slugs are the cheapest way to go, and the best .22s and .177s are MUCH cheaper than any .30 cal ammo.
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I think everyone agrees that 500 fps is a good velocity for yard plinking/target
a 25gr .25 @ 500 fps is 14 FPE
a 44gr .30 @ 500 fps is 24 FPE
perfectly reasonable power levels for a yard.
When those threads come up with ......" If you could only have one gun " type scenarios I always pick a .30 cal gun for my one and only.
If I lived on the Mainland ( more variety of game ) I would probably pick a .25
with the current offering of bullets and the latest generations of .25s they can really shoot hot, and then again can be tuned down and plink with pellets in your yard.
So for me personally is .30 but thinking about it more, generally today's .25s are the versatility kings.
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.22 caliber
13 grain wad cutters to heavy 25+ grain pellets or even heavier slugs ..... Power from say 10ft lbs or less to near 80 ft lb
These are AIR GUNS and when one asks the Q as OP has ? .... It comes down to how the end user utilizes his air gun and where the line is drawn to setting it aside and using a Powder gun.
For my uses and shooting dynamics encountered / required the age old .22 caliber is by far the MOST VERSATILE 8)
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Yeah, the latest trend in .22 heavy pellets and bullets sure has increased the .22 spectrum by a lot,.....only thing is that there isn't that many .22 guns that are that easy to power up.
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Cost of ammo is relative too since today there's a huge availability of molds and you can cast your own.
People always talk of casting as a low cost way to get ammo, but forget the "cost" of our time to do it (and of course the equipment to do it too). There is no way that I can come up with the time to cast what I want to shoot, and doing so would in fact quite literally cost me more than the cost of purchasing the ammo.
Maybe when I retire I might give it a try, but certainly not until then . . . . so for now purchased pellets and slugs are the cheapest way to go, and the best .22s and .177s are MUCH cheaper than any .30 cal ammo.
Well yeahhh !!! :) .....if the question was " What's the cheapest caliber to get you shooting airguns ? " then clearly .22 and .17 would be kings :) :)
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This thread is/was about the versatility of a caliber... not having one gun, or casting, smelting, melting, etc. Hands down it has to be the .22, no matter how much the .30 or .45 or even .50 are talked up... they definitely are not as versatile in a practical sense.
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Versatility :
......... to adapt or be adapted to many different functions or activities.
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This thread is/was about the versatility of a caliber... not having one gun, or casting, smelting, melting, etc. Hands down it has to be the .22, no matter how much the .30 or .45 or even .50 are talked up... they definitely are not as versatile in a practical sense.
Absolutely, .45 and .50 aren't versatile, like .177 and .22 limited to one side of the spectrum.
.30 isn't versatile in a practical sense ?
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Versatility :
......... to adapt or be adapted to many different functions or activities.
Are you implying that bigbores are easily adapted for backyard plinking, shooting pests in the barns and safely dispatching small varmints? The only thing small calibers can't do is to hunt bigger game, there are many shooting activities where bigbore is unfit.
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Versatility :
......... to adapt or be adapted to many different functions or activities.
Are you implying that bigbores are easily adapted for backyard plinking, shooting pests in the barns and safely dispatching small varmints? The only thing small calibers can't do is to hunt bigger game, there are many shooting activities where bigbore is unfit.
Yes there's limit to everything, that's why we looking for a middle ground to cover more bases.
Again, if I de-tune a .30 to shoot 500 fps 24 FPE and use a soft pellet like the predator I can use that .30 quite safely in a myriad of situations around the house, both plinking, target shooting and hunting.
Versatility is a compromise to cover the widest possible spectrum, there's gonna be limitations on both sides.
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I don't care much for these kind of topics as they are controversial and stir the pot with peoples beliefs or feelings...the answer is so subjective. If you were to attempt to objectively answer this, you'd maybe say the most versatile should be whatever is middle ground, which allows the largest swing in energy variance to cover nearby calibers. If you were to answer this through the lens of which caliber is most practical in terms of cost and potential energy range it covers, then that answer shifts. If you were to answer this through the filter that omits cost/efficiency, you'll get another answer. If you have a minimum energy requirement that must be met to fit within this 'versatile' definition, well then that completely disqualifies many smaller calibers...you see where I am going?
That said the obvious answer is .25 or .30 cal ;) (joking)
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I own .22 & .25 and probably use the .22's more. The .22's I have are really all that I need to get small to medium size game as far as hunting goes.
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I own .22 & .25 and probably use the .22's more. The .22's I have are really all that I need to get small to medium size game as far as hunting goes.
Absolutely Wayne, for what you do the .22 serves you best, just like there's some hunters that only or mainly do big game and a 800 FPE .45 serves them best :) :)
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I'd have to say .35 But the real challenge would be #1 putting up with the trajectory of artillery (on small game) and #2 finding a gun to shoot it slow enough, and accurate enough at very slow speeds to not be overkill on small game. While also being capable of outputting enough power to take deer/boar
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I'd have to say .35 But the real challenge would be #1 putting up with the trajectory of artillery (on small game) and #2 finding a gun to shoot it slow enough, and accurate enough at very slow speeds to not be overkill on small game. While also being capable of outputting enough power to take deer/boar
Somewhere in between 300-350 fps live targets can react and jump off the path of the pellet. There's a video of rat shooting with 12 fpe .30 and rats were dodging the pellets.
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I don't care much for these kind of topics as they are controversial and stir the pot with peoples beliefs or feelings...the answer is so subjective. If you were to attempt to objectively answer this, you'd maybe say the most versatile should be whatever is middle ground, which allows the largest swing in energy variance to cover nearby calibers. If you were to answer this through the lens of which caliber is most practical in terms of cost and potential energy range it covers, then that answer shifts. If you were to answer this through the filter that omits cost/efficiency, you'll get another answer. If you have a minimum energy requirement that must be met to fit within this 'versatile' definition, well then that completely disqualifies many smaller calibers...you see where I am going?
That said the obvious answer is .25 or .30 cal ;) (joking)
As far as cost goes one advantage .25 and .30 have over .217 and .177 is the use of buckshot which comes sized .250 for #3 and .300 for #1.
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Lead-Buckshot/products/65/ (https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Lead-Buckshot/products/65/)
https://www.precisionreloading.com/cart.php# (https://www.precisionreloading.com/cart.php#)!c=133
At either $39 for 8 lbs (Ballistic products) or $81 for 25 lbs (Remington) the price per buckshot is inexpensive..
Price works out to be either 1.1 cents or 1.6 cents for each 23.3 grain .250 round ball (#3 buckshot) with the 41.7 grain .300 roundball (#1 buckshot) being either 1.9 cents or 2.9 cents depending on whether bought as either 25# Remington or 8# Ballistic products.
With that noted, I have read that the buckshot can be inconsistent in size and that sometimes there can be problems with chambering. The following thread points to guns chambered for cast bullets in order to allow easy loading:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=25387.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=25387.0)
I found the Hornady #3 a mixed bag in a .25.... They aren't very consistent for size, with some chambering easily and some you had to nearly hammer into the breech.... If they fit your gun properly, they will work fine and not damaged the bore because they are lead.... The rifling will grip them fine, and they will spin properly.... again, providing they are a decent fit....
Bob
if you have a tight in led in the bore some of the round ball is hard to load but I had a 25cal LW barrel and had no issues with the Hornady shot fitting into the breech and they shot very good out to 30yds, I was shooting them into a 8x8 piece of fur pine and they penetrated about 3/4'' from a gun that shot 650fps :P
If the barrel is "chambered" for a cast bullet then there would likely be no loading issue.... If the chamber is shallow and the ball engages the rifling before reaching its seated position, you may have difficulty in loading.... My guess would be that in a B-28 that would be the case.... but you would have to try it to see.... Anyway, in answer to your original question, #3 buckshot is the proper size for a .25 cal....
Bob
P.S. Mark 611's Lothar Walther .25 barrel has .254" groove diameter so I wonder if was more than just the chamber that made it easy to load?
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I don't care much for these kind of topics as they are controversial and stir the pot with peoples beliefs or feelings...the answer is so subjective. If you were to attempt to objectively answer this, you'd maybe say the most versatile should be whatever is middle ground, which allows the largest swing in energy variance to cover nearby calibers. If you were to answer this through the lens of which caliber is most practical in terms of cost and potential energy range it covers, then that answer shifts. If you were to answer this through the filter that omits cost/efficiency, you'll get another answer. If you have a minimum energy requirement that must be met to fit within this 'versatile' definition, well then that completely disqualifies many smaller calibers...you see where I am going?
That said the obvious answer is .25 or .30 cal ;) (joking)
Quite right my friend, this type threads we need try keep them as objective as we can.
this is what would happen if I turn it subjective ;
I think the most versatile caliber is .357 !!!!
well at "MY" house I can plink and target shoot .357 no problem, also I can target shoot for cheaper then .177 :) :) :) ....how so ?
I can target shoot with arrows, and since arrows are reusable cost is ZERO :) :) ...cheaper then .177 :)
My .357 with JSB pellet is perfect on mongoose ( Squirrel size game ) the high shoulder/neck shot waste no meat if you eat your kills, also Dove the neck shot don't waste meat, if you stray a bit with .177 you'll miss that spine, not with the .357 :) :) LOL
Then I can hunt with arrows and I can take down elephants if I want.
So for me the most versatile caliber is .357 !!!! ...just kidding, but you see that an argument can be made for anything.
But we gotta stay objective and look for what's really in the middle ground and fit the specs :
........ ability to adapt or be adapted to many different functions or activities.
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I'm going to go with .22. Cost of ammunition, variety of different pellet types available, usability for plinking, target or small to medium game hunting, all point towards .22 for me.
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I'd have to say .35 But the real challenge would be #1 putting up with the trajectory of artillery (on small game) and #2 finding a gun to shoot it slow enough, and accurate enough at very slow speeds to not be overkill on small game. While also being capable of outputting enough power to take deer/boar
Somewhere in between 300-350 fps live targets can react and jump off the path of the pellet. There's a video of rat shooting with 12 fpe .30 and rats were dodging the pellets.
OH, wow! I'd figure that could happen if muzzle report was too loud, but I wonder if they can hear the pellet cutting the air?
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You also have to figure in the 'smile' factor. At the end of the day, which one made you smile the most. What makes you smile and what makes me smile differs based on our different set of parameters.
Most versatile for me? Probably a .20 because I'm a plinker and pester out to 45 - 50yds.
YMMV
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You also have to figure in the 'smile' factor. At the end of the day, which one made you smile the most. What makes you smile and what makes me smile differs based on our different set of parameters.
Most versatile for me? Probably a .20 because I'm a plinker and pester out to 45 - 50yds.
YMMV
Lol ...was waiting for the .20 cal ..... sadly range of pellets & no slugs limit the VERSATILITY .. tho a Great caliber in general.
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You also have to figure in the 'smile' factor. At the end of the day, which one made you smile the most. What makes you smile and what makes me smile differs based on our different set of parameters.
Most versatile for me? Probably a .20 because I'm a plinker and pester out to 45 - 50yds.
YMMV
Lol ...was waiting for the .20 cal ..... sadly range of pellets & no slugs limit the VERSATILITY .. tho a Great caliber in general.
LOL.... I held back as long as I could.
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This thread is/was about the versatility of a caliber... not having one gun, or casting, smelting, melting, etc. Hands down it has to be the .22, no matter how much the .30 or .45 or even .50 are talked up... they definitely are not as versatile in a practical sense.
Absolutely, .45 and .50 aren't versatile, like .177 and .22 limited to one side of the spectrum.
.30 isn't versatile in a practical sense ?
In the sense that after I get home from work. And get to plinking and target shooting I’m not going to do it with a .30. I could just break out some CCI CBs if I wanted to shoot chunks of lead real slow. And after plinking and target shooting, I can go pesting or hunting with the same load out. No adjustments necessary...
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HAve you really tried to get round lead ball to shoot worth a "carp"....may be "perectly round"but that doesn't man they are all the same diameter.
Never really came close in accuracy with .177's, 22's,or 25's....a few were good enough to be useful...often shooting better than the worst pellet-pellets test, but not really to the potential.
Did find the bigger the bore, the better round ball shot (as a percentage of the best pellet=pellets)….so basically followed caliber(with bigger bores doing better with lead ball than little bores...but both not nearly as good a pellet-pellets).
But go ahead...give it a try...might bet lucky....whichever, post whatever you find.
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This thread is/was about the versatility of a caliber... not having one gun, or casting, smelting, melting, etc. Hands down it has to be the .22, no matter how much the .30 or .45 or even .50 are talked up... they definitely are not as versatile in a practical sense.
Absolutely, .45 and .50 aren't versatile, like .177 and .22 limited to one side of the spectrum.
.30 isn't versatile in a practical sense ?
In the sense that after I get home from work. And get to plinking and target shooting I’m not going to do it with a .30. I could just break out some CCI CBs if I wanted to shoot chunks of lead real slow. And after plinking and target shooting, I can go pesting or hunting with the same load out. No adjustments necessary...
Again, we are trying to figure out what is the most versatile caliber for the broadest spectrum possible across the board of all the possible applications,.....not just for what you personally do,....Subjectively everyone will have his personal most versatile because of what he/she does.
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Along your reasoning I can say this all day,....357 is the most Versatile for me :) :)
I don't care much for these kind of topics as they are controversial and stir the pot with peoples beliefs or feelings...the answer is so subjective. If you were to attempt to objectively answer this, you'd maybe say the most versatile should be whatever is middle ground, which allows the largest swing in energy variance to cover nearby calibers. If you were to answer this through the lens of which caliber is most practical in terms of cost and potential energy range it covers, then that answer shifts. If you were to answer this through the filter that omits cost/efficiency, you'll get another answer. If you have a minimum energy requirement that must be met to fit within this 'versatile' definition, well then that completely disqualifies many smaller calibers...you see where I am going?
That said the obvious answer is .25 or .30 cal ;) (joking)
Quite right my friend, this type threads we need try keep them as objective as we can.
this is what would happen if I turn it subjective ;
I think the most versatile caliber is .357 !!!!
well at "MY" house I can plink and target shoot .357 no problem, also I can target shoot for cheaper then .177 :) :) :) ....how so ?
I can target shoot with arrows, and since arrows are reusable cost is ZERO :) :) ...cheaper then .177 :)
My .357 with JSB pellet is perfect on mongoose ( Squirrel size game ) the high shoulder/neck shot waste no meat if you eat your kills, also Dove the neck shot don't waste meat, if you stray a bit with .177 you'll miss that spine, not with the .357 :) :) LOL
Then I can hunt with arrows and I can take down elephants if I want.
So for me the most versatile caliber is .357 !!!! ...just kidding, but you see that an argument can be made for anything.
But we gotta stay objective and look for what's really in the middle ground and fit the specs :
........ ability to adapt or be adapted to many different functions or activities.
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This thread is/was about the versatility of a caliber... not having one gun, or casting, smelting, melting, etc. Hands down it has to be the .22, no matter how much the .30 or .45 or even .50 are talked up... they definitely are not as versatile in a practical sense.
Absolutely, .45 and .50 aren't versatile, like .177 and .22 limited to one side of the spectrum.
.30 isn't versatile in a practical sense ?
In the sense that after I get home from work. And get to plinking and target shooting I’m not going to do it with a .30. I could just break out some CCI CBs if I wanted to shoot chunks of lead real slow. And after plinking and target shooting, I can go pesting or hunting with the same load out. No adjustments necessary...
Also your CCI CB at 700 fps is vastly more dangerous then a soft Predator hollowpoint at 40 FPE,...and since they are very inaccurate too ;D ;D
....... and you can go hunt after pesting quite effectively without adjustments, and probably be more effective too :) :) :)
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Shotshells?
Gamo made a .22 air shotgun that got some decent reviews:
https://www.airgundepot.com/gamo-viper-express-air-shotgun.html#item-reviews-container (https://www.airgundepot.com/gamo-viper-express-air-shotgun.html#item-reviews-container)
And then there is the Seneca Wingshot in .50 which does pretty good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDytbqxPvio (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDytbqxPvio)
They are both smooth bore though!
A rifled bore will cause greater dispersion. The faster the twist the greater the dispersion.
P.S. Here is a video using hand made .177 shotshells through a rifled barrel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WIJtUIH-GE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WIJtUIH-GE)
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This thread is/was about the versatility of a caliber... not having one gun, or casting, smelting, melting, etc. Hands down it has to be the .22, no matter how much the .30 or .45 or even .50 are talked up... they definitely are not as versatile in a practical sense.
Absolutely, .45 and .50 aren't versatile, like .177 and .22 limited to one side of the spectrum.
.30 isn't versatile in a practical sense ?
In the sense that after I get home from work. And get to plinking and target shooting I’m not going to do it with a .30. I could just break out some CCI CBs if I wanted to shoot chunks of lead real slow. And after plinking and target shooting, I can go pesting or hunting with the same load out. No adjustments necessary...
Also your CCI CB at 700 fps is vastly more dangerous then a soft Predator hollowpoint at 40 FPE,...and since they are very inaccurate too ;D ;D
....... and you can go hunt after pesting quite effectively without adjustments, and probably be more effective too :) :) :)
Yes, you make my point, I wouldn’t break out the CCIs. As the .22 pellets/slugs do nicely. It not about what I do. It’s about what IS the most versatile airgun caliber. The numbers don’t lie... it’s the .22 Some have taken small hogs and even coyotes with the lowly, but extremely versatile .22
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I would venture that you could cover the widest range of targets (plinking to big game) with a .25/.257 cal, shooting pellets down to 20 gr. at 500 fps (11 FPE) up to 112 gr. at 1000+ fps (250 FPE).... It may not be practical to dial one gun over that entire range, however.... but the question was which CALIBER?....
Bob
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I would venture that you could cover the widest range of targets (plinking to big game) with a .25/.257 cal, shooting pellets down to 20 gr. at 500 fps (11 FPE) up to 112 gr. at 1000+ fps (250 FPE).... It may not be practical to dial one gun over that entire range, however.... but the question was which CALIBER?....
Bob
Agree with you,
I love the .30 but as I said several posts back I think the modern .25 probably is the most versatile.
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I would venture that you could cover the widest range of targets (plinking to big game) with a .25/.257 cal, shooting pellets down to 20 gr. at 500 fps (11 FPE) up to 112 gr. at 1000+ fps (250 FPE).... It may not be practical to dial one gun over that entire range, however.... but the question was which CALIBER?....
Bob
Yep, .257 with 1 in 7" twist would be able to cover the largest range. As you mentioned perhaps not the most practical..... e.g. 1 in 7" would probably limit diabolo pellets to low speed but that would be fine.
P.S. I noticed Air Venturi advertised .25 for the Air bolt (Arrow) at one time:
https://www.airventuri.com/airbolt (https://www.airventuri.com/airbolt)
I wonder why that never happened? It would have expanded .25 to include the largest game! (Laws permitting. Not all states allow air bow hunting.)
EDIT: Maybe if .25 doesn't work......30 cal Air venturi air bolt would?
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I would venture that you could cover the widest range of targets (plinking to big game) with a .25/.257 cal, shooting pellets down to 20 gr. at 500 fps (11 FPE) up to 112 gr. at 1000+ fps (250 FPE).... It may not be practical to dial one gun over that entire range, however.... but the question was which CALIBER?....
Bob
Yep, .257 with 1 in 7" twist would be able to cover the largest range. As you mentioned perhaps not the most practical..... e.g. 1 in 7" would probably limit diabolo pellets to low speed but that would be fine.
P.S. I noticed Air Venturi advertised .25 for the Air bolt (Arrow) at one time:
https://www.airventuri.com/airbolt (https://www.airventuri.com/airbolt)
I wonder why that never happened? It would have expanded .25 to include the largest game! (Laws permitting. Not all states allow air bow hunting.)
EDIT: Maybe if .25 doesn't work......30 cal Air venturi air bolt would?
Yeah I was super excited by the .25 AirBolts ( that would definitely make it the most versatile caliber by miles :) :) :) ) but they never came, I'm guessing the shaft had to be to skinny and couldn't handle the power.
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I would venture that you could cover the widest range of targets (plinking to big game) with a .25/.257 cal, shooting pellets down to 20 gr. at 500 fps (11 FPE) up to 112 gr. at 1000+ fps (250 FPE).... It may not be practical to dial one gun over that entire range, however.... but the question was which CALIBER?....
Bob
Yep, .257 with 1 in 7" twist would be able to cover the largest range. As you mentioned perhaps not the most practical..... e.g. 1 in 7" would probably limit diabolo pellets to low speed but that would be fine.
P.S. I noticed Air Venturi advertised .25 for the Air bolt (Arrow) at one time:
https://www.airventuri.com/airbolt (https://www.airventuri.com/airbolt)
I wonder why that never happened? It would have expanded .25 to include the largest game! (Laws permitting. Not all states allow air bow hunting.)
EDIT: Maybe if .25 doesn't work......30 cal Air venturi air bolt would?
Yeah I was super excited by the .25 AirBolts ( that would definitely make it the most versatile caliber by miles :) :) :) ) but they never came, I'm guessing the shaft had to be to skinny and couldn't handle the power.
Yes, it could be the shaft had to be too thin....and the gun meant to use it (Sumatra 2500) was too powerful for it. This especially if .25 airbolt needed a heavy arrow head to stabilize because of the micro-bump fletching (re:high FOC arrow (created by using a heavy arrowhead) can get away with using smaller vanes for stabilization).
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=124330.0;attach=184073;image)
(.25 air bolt prototypes on the right. https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=124330.msg1213089#msg1213089 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=124330.msg1213089#msg1213089) )
https://www.bowhuntingmag.com/editorial/the-benefits-of-front-heavy-arrows/309131 (https://www.bowhuntingmag.com/editorial/the-benefits-of-front-heavy-arrows/309131)
Using a heavy point will also make the arrow more forgiving. An arrow with a higher FOC will move the fulcrum point farther forward on the arrow, giving the fletching more leverage. This improved leverage allows you to use smaller vanes to maintain the same steering power. Using smaller vanes is a good thing, because many of the good aspects of hunting arrow performance are inversely proportional to the total surface area of the arrow. In other words, the less surface area, the better the arrow will function.
It's important to use a relatively stiff shaft when using a lot of weight in the front end of the arrow. The dynamic spine (stiffness) of the arrow decreases as weight is added to the front of the arrow. The dynamic spine is a measure of how stiff the arrow acts as it is being accelerated by the bowstring. The more weight on the front end of the arrow, the weaker the shaft will act. The static spine is a measure of the shaft's stiffness at rest. The static spine will remain the same no matter how much weight is added to the front of the arrow.
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If they made .30 airbolts there's many guns out there that can use them ( they aren't just for Sam Yang )
I use Air Bolts in my REX .357 Mini-Carbine,...all you have to do is cut the shaft to length.
Yes FOC is key, I use high FOC in my arrows for archery and also I use heavier heads on The AirBolts, 160gr when I had the .50 and 125gr on my current .357
I think that probably .30 is to small for arrows, but if they ever come out with them I'm in :)
.357 been out of stock for a year, wander what's going on there ?
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I think that probably .30 is to small for arrows, but if they ever come out with them I'm in :)
The micro-bump fletching on the .25 (I just added the picture to my previous post) looks barely thicker than the diameter of the arrow.
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=124330.0;attach=184073;image)
And the shafts on the .357 arrows look significantly thinner than .30 cal:
(https://cdn.airgundepot.com/ay/airgundepot/air-venturi-air-bolt-6-pack-35-cal_1591387796.jpg)
Maybe .30 cal air bolt is possible, but Air Venturi won't release unless they have a gun matched to it? (I noticed Sam Yang makes every caliber except for .30)
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Here you go, my mini Air Bolt .357 on the caliper
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Maybe the AirBolts where 1st developed with SamYang in mind , but Pyramyd sells enough guns to realize that those bolts can be used in many more guns then just SamYang.
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Maybe the .25 Air Bolt could work if the shaft were shortened? (re: shorter arrows can use weaker spine shafts all other things being equal.)
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Great topic. I'm still undecided though. I understand all the given arguments so far and each one of you has great points. I like the idea of a 25 or 30 caliber but the 22 caliber is very versatile as well. Although the more I shoot and the better I become I realize more and more its really about shot placement more than power. Although I'm all in from a low powered 17 to a mid powered 30.
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HAve you really tried to get round lead ball to shoot worth a "carp"....may be "perectly round"but that doesn't man they are all the same diameter.
Never really came close in accuracy with .177's, 22's,or 25's....a few were good enough to be useful...often shooting better than the worst pellet-pellets test, but not really to the potential.
Did find the bigger the bore, the better round ball shot (as a percentage of the best pellet=pellets)….so basically followed caliber(with bigger bores doing better with lead ball than little bores...but both not nearly as good a pellet-pellets).
But go ahead...give it a try...might bet lucky....whichever, post whatever you find.
Air venturi .358 67 grain Round balls did really well in this video (1/2" 3 shot groups at 45 yards with both the 34" and 24" barrels for the Texan):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWn9OBKjNcA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWn9OBKjNcA)
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Maybe the .25 Air Bolt could work if the shaft were shortened? (re: shorter arrows can use weaker spine shafts all other things being equal.)
For Airbolts to work they need to be as close as possible to the valve,...to much empty space between the valve and nock and they are rendered useless
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Maybe the .25 Air Bolt could work if the shaft were shortened? (re: shorter arrows can use weaker spine shafts all other things being equal.)
For Airbolts to work they need to be as close as possible to the valve,...to much empty space between the valve and nock and they are rendered useless
Yep, that is what Tyler Patner said at 6:17 of the following video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC6b_C5I_-A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC6b_C5I_-A)
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I do a lot of pesting and small game hunting, so you'd think I'd be all about .22 especially with an unchoked LW in my Leshiy.
Surprise!
Most versatile is the .35 because air-bolts, slugs, and diabolo pellets can all be shot from the same barrels. .30 needs more love in the bolt arena.
.22 and .25 offer slugs and pellets but no bolts.
So, going strictly by ammo types as showing "more versatile", .35 wins by a landslide since it offers slugs, pellets, and bolts and tunes down easier than the bigger bores.
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I do a lot of pesting and small game hunting, so you'd think I'd be all about .22 especially with an unchoked LW in my Leshiy.
Surprise!
Most versatile is the .35 because air-bolts, slugs, and diabolo pellets can all be shot from the same barrels. .30 needs more love in the bolt arena.
.22 and .25 offer slugs and pellets but no bolts.
So, going strictly by ammo types as showing "more versatile", .35 wins by a landslide since it offers slugs, pellets, and bolts and tunes down easier than the bigger bores.
Best logic yet -sold! I have no use for a .35 cal or the bolts, but I agree with this and thus accept this as the winner of this "contest" . . .
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Hahahaha you guys are killing me :)
I was trying not to go there and stay a bit moderate and compromise :)
also for .357 there's a myriad of Cowboy bullet casters that have pretty cheap prices :)
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Hahahaha you guys are killing me :)
I was trying not to go there and stay a bit moderate and compromise :)
also for .357 there's a myriad of Cowboy bullet casters that have pretty cheap prices :)
For .357 I also found speer shot capsules:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=79425.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=79425.0)
And while I was looking for these at a retailer I also found .357 plastic bullets and .357 rubber bullets:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010623824?pid=315781 (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010623824?pid=315781)
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010651362 (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010651362)
I don't know how much the plastic bullets weigh, but one source claims the X-ring rubber bullets weigh 7.7 grains.
(Not sure if the plastic or rubber bullet would work in an airgun but they might as there intended usage is to be propelled by a just a primer (no gunpowder)).
EDIT: One of the reviewers at Midway mentioned the plastic .357 bullets are very undersize and thus keyhole.
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Here is a review on the X-ring .357 rubber bullets (they are actually diabolo pellets with a hollow skirt):
https://david.bookstaber.com/Interests/2011/03/x-ring-rubber-pistol-bullets/
Claim is they can be re-used 75 to 100 times.
NOTE: These 7.7 grain .357 diabolo rubber pellets are extremely short range due to the super low BC.
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I don't care much for these kind of topics as they are controversial and stir the pot with peoples beliefs or feelings...the answer is so subjective. If you were to attempt to objectively answer this, you'd maybe say the most versatile should be whatever is middle ground, which allows the largest swing in energy variance to cover nearby calibers. If you were to answer this through the lens of which caliber is most practical in terms of cost and potential energy range it covers, then that answer shifts. If you were to answer this through the filter that omits cost/efficiency, you'll get another answer. If you have a minimum energy requirement that must be met to fit within this 'versatile' definition, well then that completely disqualifies many smaller calibers...you see where I am going?
That said the obvious answer is .25 or .30 cal ;) (joking)
As far as cost goes one advantage .25 and .30 have over .217 and .177 is the use of buckshot which comes sized .250 for #3 and .300 for #1.
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Lead-Buckshot/products/65/ (https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Lead-Buckshot/products/65/)
https://www.precisionreloading.com/cart.php# (https://www.precisionreloading.com/cart.php#)!c=133
At either $39 for 8 lbs (Ballistic products) or $81 for 25 lbs (Remington) the price per buckshot is inexpensive..
Price works out to be either 1.1 cents or 1.6 cents for each 23.3 grain .250 round ball (#3 buckshot) with the 41.7 grain .300 roundball (#1 buckshot) being either 1.9 cents or 2.9 cents depending on whether bought as either 25# Remington or 8# Ballistic products.
With that noted, I have read that the buckshot can be inconsistent in size and that sometimes there can be problems with chambering. The following thread points to guns chambered for cast bullets in order to allow easy loading:
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=25387.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=25387.0)
I found the Hornady #3 a mixed bag in a .25.... They aren't very consistent for size, with some chambering easily and some you had to nearly hammer into the breech.... If they fit your gun properly, they will work fine and not damaged the bore because they are lead.... The rifling will grip them fine, and they will spin properly.... again, providing they are a decent fit....
Bob
if you have a tight in led in the bore some of the round ball is hard to load but I had a 25cal LW barrel and had no issues with the Hornady shot fitting into the breech and they shot very good out to 30yds, I was shooting them into a 8x8 piece of fur pine and they penetrated about 3/4'' from a gun that shot 650fps :P
If the barrel is "chambered" for a cast bullet then there would likely be no loading issue.... If the chamber is shallow and the ball engages the rifling before reaching its seated position, you may have difficulty in loading.... My guess would be that in a B-28 that would be the case.... but you would have to try it to see.... Anyway, in answer to your original question, #3 buckshot is the proper size for a .25 cal....
Bob
P.S. Mark 611's Lothar Walther .25 barrel has .254" groove diameter so I wonder if was more than just the chamber that made it easy to load?
What about a caliber optimized to handle 6mm airsoft BBs (which can weigh anywhere from 1.9 grain to 6.2 grains+) as well as lead slugs?
I've read 5.95mm is what airsoft BB's actually measure. This one @ 5.5 grains claims to be 5.95mm +/- .01mm in diameter (which is .233" diameter to .235" diameter)
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/we-precision-series-6mm-airsoft-bbs-0-36g-black-2-000-rds?p=1078 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/we-precision-series-6mm-airsoft-bbs-0-36g-black-2-000-rds?p=1078)
And Pac-Nor (still closed from the 2019 fire) does have a .234" groove diameter barrel (with either 1 in 12" twist or 1 in 14" twist):
http://pac-nor.com/barrels/ (http://pac-nor.com/barrels/)
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When people say that .357 for small game is way overgunned fail to observe.
As I mentioned before I shot scores of Mongoose with .357 and if they where squirrels I wouldn't have wasted any meat, none.
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I do a lot of pesting and small game hunting, so you'd think I'd be all about .22 especially with an unchoked LW in my Leshiy.
Surprise!
Most versatile is the .35 because air-bolts, slugs, and diabolo pellets can all be shot from the same barrels. .30 needs more love in the bolt arena.
.22 and .25 offer slugs and pellets but no bolts.
So, going strictly by ammo types as showing "more versatile", .35 wins by a landslide since it offers slugs, pellets, and bolts and tunes down easier than the bigger bores.
That makes a lot of sense from a hunters view point. I enjoy my 35's. and my 22's and 25's and .177's.
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In a PCP, I'd go bigger and leave the plinking/birding/rodenting to a break-barrel or lesser PCP in smaller caliber.
If you are talking about spending over $1000 on a gun and $500 for each conversion, then cost of ammo is obviously not an issue.
And there is nothing that says you can only have one gun, and they don't all have to be top-o-the-line. The most fun I have sometimes is buying cheap guns, working on them and getting great groups out of them with some elbow grease.
If you want a plinker and bird/rodent puncher, pick-up a $100 break barrel or cheaper PCP of choice in .177 or .22.
If you are buying something for putting meat on the table, and a rimfire/centerfire isn't on the table, then this is where I would drop more $$ and go with a better quality and the bigger cal PCP (.25, .30. etc).
We always talk like we are in these boxes, but there is no do everything tool, just which tool is best for which job. Which is why we all have more than one of everything.. except wives, because that would be crazy.
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I wonder if it would be possible to apply backspin to lead round balls in order to increase their range?
Here is a video showing the effect of that which in airsoft is called Hop-up:
https://youtu.be/TvGqoq1rMnw?t=29 (https://youtu.be/TvGqoq1rMnw?t=29)
This is accomplished through the use of a rubber bucking:
(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5068fbd4bd74ef76abb52561258128c0.webp)
The effect is quite dramatic and with too much "hop up" the BBs will even curve upward rather than fly level.
(https://www.airsplat.com/Images/Airsoft-HopUp.jpg)
Apparently the effect can even be used with rifled barrels:
https://youtu.be/vH5gKaOSV2A?t=88 (https://youtu.be/vH5gKaOSV2A?t=88)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecjLyld-0q0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecjLyld-0q0)
However, the rifling does not impart a spin to the projectile ---> https://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/3yj2b6/airsoft_rifled_barrels_are_they_worth_a_damn/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/3yj2b6/airsoft_rifled_barrels_are_they_worth_a_damn/)
"How is it physically possible to have a rifled barrel impart a spin on the BB and combine it with the Magnus effect of the hop-up? It is two totally different axes of rotation!" A1. Actually, the barrel ISN'T "rifled" in the standard sense of a real gun. Yes, the inner barrel has spiral rifling grooves in it, but the BB does NOT touch the groove. The purpose of the TWIST inner barrel is not to put a rifling spin on the BB. It is to put a "cyclone" of air around the BB, to help float it through the inner barrel and PREVENT the BB from touching the side walls of the inner barrel at all.
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What about a smoothbore that shoots:
1. Lead Round ball (ideally with backspin in order to increase range, see post above this one. Magazine like a girardoni air rifle would be nice.)
2. Arrows
3. Shotshells
4. Diabolo Pellets
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What about a smoothbore .357 (or maybe even .45) that shoots:
1. Lead Round ball (ideally with retractable/adjustable bucking in order to increase range of roundball via backspin, see post above this one. Magazine like a girardoni air rifle would be nice.)
2. Arrows
3. Shotshells
4. Diabolo Pellets, either lead or the Rubber (reusable) training ones mentioned earlier on this page.
Rifled barrel is much better ;
More accurate with pellets,
More accurate with Bullets,
Airbolts need the rifleled barrel to impart spin on the arrows,
More accurate with lead roundball ( back in the day when there was no ammo really I used to shoot the Ballistic Product .360 roundball a lot )
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What about a smoothbore .357 (or maybe even .45) that shoots:
1. Lead Round ball (ideally with retractable/adjustable bucking in order to increase range of roundball via backspin, see post above this one. Magazine like a girardoni air rifle would be nice.)
2. Arrows
3. Shotshells
4. Diabolo Pellets, either lead or the Rubber (reusable) training ones mentioned earlier on this page.
Rifled barrel is much better ;
More accurate with pellets,
More accurate with Bullets,
Airbolts need the rifleled barrel to impart spin on the arrows,
More accurate with lead roundball ( back in the day when there was no ammo really I used to shoot the Ballistic Product .360 roundball a lot )
It could also have portion at the end of the smooth bore barrel for both rifled and choke (i.e. shotgun) inserts. (e.g. FX smooth twist barrels were accurate with pellets even though they were mostly smooth bore.)
But if someone could get the backspin right for lead round ball then maybe pellets wouldn't be used much?
P.S. The .45 wouldn't need any rifling twist for the arrows. (Reason: the vanes on the .45 arrows do the stabilizing.)
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What about a smoothbore .357 (or maybe even .45) that shoots:
1. Lead Round ball (ideally with retractable/adjustable bucking in order to increase range of roundball via backspin, see post above this one. Magazine like a girardoni air rifle would be nice.)
2. Arrows
3. Shotshells
4. Diabolo Pellets, either lead or the Rubber (reusable) training ones mentioned earlier on this page.
Rifled barrel is much better ;
More accurate with pellets,
More accurate with Bullets,
Airbolts need the rifleled barrel to impart spin on the arrows,
More accurate with lead roundball ( back in the day when there was no ammo really I used to shoot the Ballistic Product .360 roundball a lot )
It could also have portion at the end of the smooth bore barrel for both rifled and choke (i.e. shotgun) inserts. (e.g. FX smooth twist barrels were accurate with pellets even though they were mostly smooth bore.)
P.S. The .45 wouldn't need any rifling twist for the arrows. (Reason: the vanes on the .45 arrows do the stabilizing.)
Nope,
Vanes in the .45 and .50 are straight so they don'y impart any spinning, they rely on the nock to engage the rifleing and impart the spin,.....I had a Claw .50 with Airbolts and that's how they work.
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What about a smoothbore .357 (or maybe even .45) that shoots:
1. Lead Round ball (ideally with retractable/adjustable bucking in order to increase range of roundball via backspin, see post above this one. Magazine like a girardoni air rifle would be nice.)
2. Arrows
3. Shotshells
4. Diabolo Pellets, either lead or the Rubber (reusable) training ones mentioned earlier on this page.
Rifled barrel is much better ;
More accurate with pellets,
More accurate with Bullets,
Airbolts need the rifleled barrel to impart spin on the arrows,
More accurate with lead roundball ( back in the day when there was no ammo really I used to shoot the Ballistic Product .360 roundball a lot )
It could also have portion at the end of the smooth bore barrel for both rifled and choke (i.e. shotgun) inserts. (e.g. FX smooth twist barrels were accurate with pellets even though they were mostly smooth bore.)
P.S. The .45 wouldn't need any rifling twist for the arrows. (Reason: the vanes on the .45 arrows do the stabilizing.)
Nope,
Vanes in the .45 and .50 are straight so they don'y impart any spinning, they rely on the nock to engage the rifleing and impart the spin,.....I had a Claw .50 with Airbolts and that's how they work.
They must have put the straight vanes on because they also use the arrows with the smoothbore Wingshot:
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/seneca-wing-shot-shotgun-ii-ultimate-hunters-combo?m=4488 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/seneca-wing-shot-shotgun-ii-ultimate-hunters-combo?m=4488)
The straight vanes resist spinning.
https://www.huntersfriend.com/straight-4%C2%BA%20offset-%20or-helical-how-should-I-fletch-my-arrows (https://www.huntersfriend.com/straight-4%C2%BA%20offset-%20or-helical-how-should-I-fletch-my-arrows)
The benefit of a straight vane is zero speed loss. Since the vane does not veer off to the left or right the vane it'self will not be forced to spin by the wind. This means the arrow is not slowed by the vane catching wind and the vanes are instead just slicing through the wind. Unfortunately this also means the arrow is resisting a spin causing it to become slightly less stable. This is an effect that is hard to notice at shorter distances but it can make things a little harder for you once you start getting back to 40 yards or more.
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Heres no fletching at all and shooting from the barrel house not anything rifled, he just made this thing up a day or two ago. Pretty cool!
https://youtu.be/NpHtOxO8lR4
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Offset or Helical fletching would impart spin to an arrow launched from a smoothbore barrel.
And it does seem to me that offset or helical fletching would work better from a rifled barrel than straight fletching from a rifled barrel.
So why did Air Venturi use straight fletching?
It's not to allow it to work with a smoothbore as I wrote.
P.S. I read the Wingshot does have a screw in choke.
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Either way, when I get a REX .50 I will trim down the vanes down to next to nothing.
The AirBolt out of my Dragon Claw where scary accurate.
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Either way, when I get a REX .50 I will trim down the vanes down to next to nothing.
It should become less stable.
Straight fletched arrows are a fin-stabilized projectile.
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I may add the .50 Wing Shot can shoot anything from nerf darts and paint balls , bird shot to 350 gr slugs.
No it is not a long ranger, but has many ammo choices .
IMO the .22 all around has the best ammo choices, if said gun likes 1/2 of it. .22 would fit the majority of air gunners needs, but that is always changing these days with new developments.
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When did this thread change from what CALIBER is the most versatile to what single gun will best do everything?.... I ask this, because there is no one gun that can handle all the possible projectiles in that caliber and provide acceptable accuracy with every one, and likely not the adjustment range to handle them, either.... ???
Bob
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Either way, when I get a REX .50 I will trim down the vanes down to next to nothing.
It should become less stable.
Straight fletched arrows are a fin-stabilized projectile.
Not necessary,
My .357 Air Bolts have no vanes at all and they are lazers.
I use farely heavy heads, I'm extremely confident that trimming the vanes down to just a little fin will do no arm whatsoever to the accuracy.
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Fletching is necessary in archery to impart spin and therefore help with straighter flight,
Since spin with with Airbolt is imparted by the rifling the bolt now acts just like a bullet, so it doesn't need to be helped to stabilize.
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Either way, when I get a REX .50 I will trim down the vanes down to next to nothing.
It should become less stable.
Straight fletched arrows are a fin-stabilized projectile.
Not necessary,
My .357 Air Bolts have no vanes at all and they are lazers.
I use farely heavy heads, I'm extremely confident that trimming the vanes down to just a little fin will do no arm whatsoever to the accuracy.
I forgot you were using rifling.
I was thinking of straight fletching vs. no fletching.....both being shot from a smoothbore (like Wingshot or Ernest Rowe's experiment).
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I wonder how small of a bore a person could use a straight, offset or helical fletched arrow?
Vanes can be very tough---> https://youtu.be/8DZYwko3-PM?t=59 (notice how hard he is twisting the arrow while squeezing the vanes together)
But wouldn't smoothbore be easier on vanes all things being equal?
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Rifling doesn't arm vanes one bit, I was surprised but when I had the Claw and shooting Airbolts I saw it first hand.
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I'd have to say .35 But the real challenge would be #1 putting up with the trajectory of artillery (on small game) and #2 finding a gun to shoot it slow enough, and accurate enough at very slow speeds to not be overkill on small game. While also being capable of outputting enough power to take deer/boar
Somewhere in between 300-350 fps live targets can react and jump off the path of the pellet. There's a video of rat shooting with 12 fpe .30 and rats were dodging the pellets.
Apparently noise can also be a problem with the FX Crown Arrow for shots taken a too far of a range:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49wAdu2hXoA&feature=youtu.be&t=168 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49wAdu2hXoA&feature=youtu.be&t=168)
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The Air Bolts fly out of my REX carbine at 505 fps :) :)
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=168472.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=168472.0)
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I cannot say other than I have had .177, .22 and .25 in PCP and one Turkish knockoff of a Webley Patriot that was a decent springer.
I would say overall just looking at video and spec’s I would be torn between a .25 and .30 cal as overall. I need to get a .30 or even a .357 caliber one day to see.
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In the PCP world I think it is easier to pick a single caliber to perform multiple tasks. The power level can be tuned up or down with minimal effort which helps cover a wider range of activities like paper-target, plinking, hunting, and pesting. My current "preference" is 22 caliber for my PCPs.
I have PCPs in 177, 22, and 25 but I mostly shoot springers.
When the powerplant is limited, as it is in a springer, there can be a "sweet spot" where certain calibers and pellets weights tend to shoot better. There is some overlap so depending on the SHOOTERS NEEDS that could overlap 2 calibers. For what I like to shoot, a 22 caliber springer in the 16-22 fpe range has the most flexibility.
My reasons...
1) Almost as many pellet varieties as the 177 with per-pellet cost the same to maybe 20% higher if you shop around or wait for sales.
2) Easily suitable for target practice, plinking, pest control, and small game hunting.
3) The slightly heavier pellet carriers a little more energy out to range for larger pesting and hunting.
That being said, I have NO PLANS to give up any of my 177s. They have a flatter trajectory and generally lower power which I sometimes need/prefer.
I also have no plans to give up any of my 25 calibers. The higher power level and pellet cost makes high volume target practice and general plinking a little tiring and more costly, but that nice heavy chunk of lead does some serious damage when hunting and pesting.
I plan to keep my one 30 cal break barrel cannon. Had to experience a 30 cal big bore Carnivore break barrel and have no regrets getting one. It is a good workout to shoot but pellet cost is high with limited availability so I don't shoot it too often. I'm hoping another large woodchuck starts digging under my garage foundation again. Then I can introduce him/her to the Carnivore. I think they will get along smashingly ;-P
No single rifle/caliber does everything I want, so I'm quite happy having a selection of rifles/calibers to choose from for any given days activities.
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What caliber do you think is the most versatile? (You can specify twist rate also if you want to)
P.S. I'm still thinking about it......IMO being able to limit range and ricochet potential is an important consideration.
IMHO, that depends on the gun, power supply (piston or PCP) and intended usage.
After using .177, .20 & .22 cal barrels on my Beeman R9s and HW95 I've found that .177 cal is the most versatile for my plinking, squirrel hunting and the occasional field target match, however "able to limit range and ricochet potential" aren't considerations for my shooting. LOL....I shoot upstairs at 18 yards using the same guns used for all my airgun shooting.
I don't know from experience but it would seem to me that squishing the large "swept volume" of air from a large receiver piston gun like a HW80 would be counter productive unless de-tuned so a larger pellet like the .22 cal would be better .
Again, I don't know have any PCP experience since i have no interest in pumping/buying air, counting shots, messing with a "life support system", or having a "bit of trash in the frammis" cause air leaks so I'm guessing that "most versatile" depends on your preference, unless Field target matches are part of the mix which makes the .177 cal the best suited if the power level is adjusted to the US Field Target power limit of 20fpe or under.
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Way of topic again.
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How can .17 and .22 be more versatile ( going by the definition of versatile ) in a general sense ( Target or hunting ) .......then .30 or .357 ?
Other then being cheaper ( which isn't a criteria in versatility ) they might have one advantage but then fall way behind in the broad spectrum of applications ( like long range target shooting for example )
I understand " PERSONAL " preference or applications, but in a general sense, cover the spectrum on all applications .17 and .22 (maybe a very, very High power .22 with a ton of up and down adjustments can sneak in there but not your standard .22 ) cannot touch .30 or .357
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I’m fully convinced .30 is the most versatile airgun caliber.
And between .300 and .308, I think a .308 barrel that still shoots .300 pellets well and has internals that can be governed down between 75 fpe and or turned up to 200fpe is the most versatile gun of them all. My .308 Texan SS is such a gun.
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I’m fully convinced .30 is the most versatile airgun caliber.
And between .300 and .308, I think a .308 barrel that still shoots .300 pellets well and has internals that can be governed down between 75 fpe and or turned up to 200fpe is the most versatile gun of them all. My .308 Texan SS is such a gun.
Forgot about the .308 variation,....yeah good call there brother.
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How can .17 and .22 be more versatile ( going by the definition of versatile ) in a general sense ( Target or hunting ) .......then .30 or .357 ?
Other then being cheaper ( which isn't a criteria in versatility ) they might have one advantage but then fall way behind in the broad spectrum of applications ( like long range target shooting for example )
I understand " PERSONAL " preference or applications, but in a general sense, cover the spectrum on all applications .17 and .22 (maybe a very, very High power .22 with a ton of up and down adjustments can sneak in there but not your standard .22 ) cannot touch .30 or .357
LOL....I'll say it again..........
"IMHO, that depends on the gun, power supply (piston or PCP) and intended usage.
Could I shoot a .40 cal blow up gun upstairs at 18 yards to practice marksmanship, or would I want to?
NO
Could I shoot Field Target matches with a .40 BLASTER?
NO
Would I use one for shooting squirrels in a tree?
NOPE even if I had enough 'down range clearance" to take a high angled shot!
Would I be able to do this if my squirrels were blasted with a .40?
(https://i.imgur.com/xv2FDzZl.jpg)
ONLY if head shot But then even a .177 cal dome does the job just fine.......
(https://i.imgur.com/jOqzhB7l.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/nkJD2lUl.jpg)
Would my neighbors complain about the "NOISE" of a .40 blaster coming from my 53 yard shooting lane on my "little 1 acre wood"?
Yep, and call the police too
Would these targets still be useful after even one hit by a .40 projectile?
(https://i.imgur.com/iaSr08wl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/8SZm6IEl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/v6Ug0yHl.jpg)
NO
Would I be able to buy 1250 bullets for under $25 for the .40 blaster?
NO
Would I need to buy or pump air"
YEP
How many shots per fill of pumped or "store boughten" air, more than a couple before needing the "life support line"?
"fall way behind in the broad spectrum of applications ( like long range target shooting for example"
Yep ya got me there! Almost all my shots are at 10-30ish yards with the occasional stretch to 50 and 55 yards. LOL, this certainly isn't part of a "broad spectrum of applications" for me (or most airgunners), even those that could afford the care and feeding of the large bore PCP!
These are some of the reasons WHY is why the .177 cal is the most versatile for me shooting HW95 power level springers since you asked. :)
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Well, you just said the magic word,.....for "YOU" ;) ;)
my .30 and .357 are more quiet then my springers,...so no bothering the neighbors
Yes I shoot targets at 20 yards, have a portable backstop for the task
yes you could have eaten your squirrels you you shot them with a .357,.....just look at these mongoose, High shoulder/neck shot no meat wasted
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=148024.0 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=148024.0)
No you couldn't compete in field target, but you can shoot target from 15 yards to 200- 300 and so on
price of ammo is not a condition of caliber versatility, nor is the need of a pump or not.
Again, if .17 is what you like and suits you that's great but sure it's not the most versatile caliber ;) ;)
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HAve you really tried to get round lead ball to shoot worth a "carp"....may be "perectly round"but that doesn't man they are all the same diameter.
Never really came close in accuracy with .177's, 22's,or 25's....a few were good enough to be useful...often shooting better than the worst pellet-pellets test, but not really to the potential.
Did find the bigger the bore, the better round ball shot (as a percentage of the best pellet=pellets)….so basically followed caliber(with bigger bores doing better with lead ball than little bores...but both not nearly as good a pellet-pellets).
But go ahead...give it a try...might bet lucky....whichever, post whatever you find.
Air venturi .358 67 grain Round balls did really well in this video (1/2" 3 shot groups at 45 yards with both the 34" and 24" barrels for the Texan):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWn9OBKjNcA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWn9OBKjNcA)
With Ballistic Products Buckshot having a tolerance of +/- .003" for diameter and only coming in size increments of .010" (e.g. .170", .180", .220" etc.) perhaps a caliber like .223" (with a .217" land diameter) would work well for lead round ball usage?
Ideally the .217" land diameter would be even smaller so that round balls at the .217" end of the .220" +/- .003" tolerance range would have some engagement by the lands.
This barrel chambered for cast bullets (of course) and also coming with a radial barrel transfer port. (radial barrel xfer port so that bore sized porting could be used with the round balls.)
Others calibers to think about would be .243" (Groove diameter) which usually comes with .237" land diameter but can also be found in .236" land diameter (Google 6mm .236) and 6.5mm (.264" groove diameter with .256" bore (land) diameter).
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LOL.....we agree that "if .17 is what you like and suits you that's great" ! :)
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It’s the .22 people... from sparrows to small hogs. Anything above that break out a powder burner. No way .30 based on costs alone is more versatile. Yes you can tune it down as stated and lob it at targets but why? It’s not artillery. I mean if we are talking versatile in a practical, not theoretical sense. Nced summed it up nicely.
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price of ammo is not a condition of caliber versatility, nor is the need of a pump or not.
Really? Of course it is. I and many others would not lob thousands of .30 per year. The cost really does add up, even if you cast your own. And as for the need of a pump or more capable air source? Don’t these bigger calibers require more air? While we understand the niche for some of the larger air gun calibers. It’s not why the majority of airgun shooters get into the airgun game. At some point a line is drawn and a better tool used. If I needed a thirty caliber airgun, I would deploy my .22 rimfire.
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price of ammo is not a condition of caliber versatility, nor is the need of a pump or not.
Really? Of course it is. I and many others would not lob thousands of .30 per year. The cost really does add up, even if you cast your own. And as for the need of a pump or more capable air source? Don’t these bigger calibers require more air? While we understand the niche for some of the larger air gun calibers. It’s not why the majority of airgun shooters get into the airgun game. At some point a line is drawn and a better tool used. If I needed a thirty caliber airgun, I would deploy my .22 rimfire.
Consider that .30 round ball is just as cheap as .22 pellets and also much quieter than a .22 rimfire.
Now only if we could get it to leave barrel with backspin (like an airsoft BB, Google "Airsoft Hop-up") it would have a flat trajectory.
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price of ammo is not a condition of caliber versatility, nor is the need of a pump or not.
Really? Of course it is. I and many others would not lob thousands of .30 per year. The cost really does add up, even if you cast your own. And as for the need of a pump or more capable air source? Don’t these bigger calibers require more air? While we understand the niche for some of the larger air gun calibers. It’s not why the majority of airgun shooters get into the airgun game. At some point a line is drawn and a better tool used. If I needed a thirty caliber airgun, I would deploy my .22 rimfire.
I'm afraid you just still don't get the point :o :o
You just go of on tangents that have nothing to do with the question at hand,
....again if I take at face value just that one point that you bring up of cost of ammo, I can just say " well I shoot my .357 arrows so my cost is zero since I just reuse them "
Same thing, " I can just recycle my lead and cast my own in .30 and .357 so my cost per round will be cheaper then you .22 in the long run"
you are diverging from what is the most versatile caliber to what is the best air comsumpion all of a sudden, and you just end up busting out your .22 rimfire ::) ::) ::)
.50 just like .17 will never be the most versatile, it's a compromise, a middle ground, no other caliber can cover the spectrum like .30 or .357
Heck with my .357 I can hunt squirrels in the morning, eat them for lunch since I didn't waste any meat and then go and hunt an elephant in the afternoon ;D ;D ;D ;D
let's see if your .22 is that versatile ;D ;D ;D LOL
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price of ammo is not a condition of caliber versatility, nor is the need of a pump or not.
Really? Of course it is. I and many others would not lob thousands of .30 per year. The cost really does add up, even if you cast your own. And as for the need of a pump or more capable air source? Don’t these bigger calibers require more air? While we understand the niche for some of the larger air gun calibers. It’s not why the majority of airgun shooters get into the airgun game. At some point a line is drawn and a better tool used. If I needed a thirty caliber airgun, I would deploy my .22 rimfire.
I'm afraid you just still don't get the point :o :o
You just go of on tangents that have nothing to do with the question at hand,
....again if I take at face value just that one point that you bring up of cost of ammo, I can just say " well I shoot my .357 arrows so my cost is zero since I just reuse them "
Same thing, " I can just recycle my lead and cast my own in .30 and .357 so my cost per round will be cheaper then you .22 in the long run"
you are diverging from what is the most versatile caliber to what is the best air comsumpion all of a sudden, and you just end up busting out your .22 rimfire ::) ::) ::)
.50 just like .17 will never be the most versatile, it's a compromise, a middle ground, no other caliber can cover the spectrum like .30 or .357
Heck with my .357 I can hunt squirrels in the morning, eat them for lunch since I didn't waste any meat and then go and hunt an elephant in the afternoon ;D ;D ;D ;D
let's see if your .22 is that versatile ;D ;D ;D LOL
Don’t be afraid 😟. I reload for powder burners and if you factor the value of your time? Then it’s not cheap. As for theoretically practical and practical in practice? If we’ll talking about reusing a projectile? I would break out my archery tackle then? Everything is versatile to a point... So I’m afraid it’s you who are diverging. The big bores are not practical or versatile for the majority of air gunners. Notice how you did not address the “fact” that big bores consume “big air”. And using a crapload of emojis does not strengthen your point.
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dang, out of popcorn. brb
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I'm starting to wonder now if you understand the question,
it's a simple question ;
what caliber is the most versatile ?
it's not,...what do you prefer to shoot ? what caliber do you prefer to hunt with ?
It's an objective question not a subjective one, therefore it needs to be looked at from outside of personal preferences.
let's bring up once again the definition of Versatile;
" able to adapt or be adapted to many different functions or activities. "
as much as I look I can't find the section that says ...."only if you keep it under a certain cost" :) LOL
nor....... " only up to the point when you bust out the rimfire " :) :) LOL
It's not about :
"not being practical with the majority of airgunners",........that has nothing to do with the question at hand
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price of ammo is not a condition of caliber versatility, nor is the need of a pump or not.
Really? Of course it is. I and many others would not lob thousands of .30 per year. The cost really does add up, even if you cast your own. And as for the need of a pump or more capable air source? Don’t these bigger calibers require more air? While we understand the niche for some of the larger air gun calibers. It’s not why the majority of airgun shooters get into the airgun game. At some point a line is drawn and a better tool used. If I needed a thirty caliber airgun, I would deploy my .22 rimfire.
I'm afraid you just still don't get the point :o :o
You just go of on tangents that have nothing to do with the question at hand,
....again if I take at face value just that one point that you bring up of cost of ammo, I can just say " well I shoot my .357 arrows so my cost is zero since I just reuse them "
Same thing, " I can just recycle my lead and cast my own in .30 and .357 so my cost per round will be cheaper then you .22 in the long run"
you are diverging from what is the most versatile caliber to what is the best air comsumpion all of a sudden, and you just end up busting out your .22 rimfire ::) ::) ::)
.50 just like .17 will never be the most versatile, it's a compromise, a middle ground, no other caliber can cover the spectrum like .30 or .357
Heck with my .357 I can hunt squirrels in the morning, eat them for lunch since I didn't waste any meat and then go and hunt an elephant in the afternoon ;D ;D ;D ;D
let's see if your .22 is that versatile ;D ;D ;D LOL
Don’t be afraid 😟. I reload for powder burners and if you factor the value of your time? Then it’s not cheap. As for theoretically practical and practical in practice? If we’ll talking about reusing a projectile? I would break out my archery tackle then? Everything is versatile to a point... So I’m afraid it’s you who are diverging. The big bores are not practical or versatile for the majority of air gunners. Notice how you did not address the “fact” that big bores consume “big air”. And using a crapload of emojis does not strengthen your point.
I don't think (on average) a big bore would use any more air than a small bore at the same FPE.
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price of ammo is not a condition of caliber versatility, nor is the need of a pump or not.
Really? Of course it is. I and many others would not lob thousands of .30 per year. The cost really does add up, even if you cast your own. And as for the need of a pump or more capable air source? Don’t these bigger calibers require more air? While we understand the niche for some of the larger air gun calibers. It’s not why the majority of airgun shooters get into the airgun game. At some point a line is drawn and a better tool used. If I needed a thirty caliber airgun, I would deploy my .22 rimfire.
Consider that .30 round ball is just as cheap as .22 pellets and also much quieter than a .22 rimfire.
Now only if we could get it to leave barrel with backspin (like an airsoft BB, Google "Airsoft Hop-up") it would have a flat trajectory.
Some information on Corbin round ball swaging:
http://www.corbins.com/bsk-1.htm (http://www.corbins.com/bsk-1.htm)
http://www.corbins.com/prball.htm (http://www.corbins.com/prball.htm)
(Sounds like a way to make the round balls.....very round and consistent in size, but requires 2 presses.)
P.S. Here is a very good website called "Airsoft trajectory project" ---> http://mackila.com/airsoft/atp/ (http://mackila.com/airsoft/atp/) (Lots of interesting data, charts and graphs showing the effects of various backspins, BB weights, velocities, etc.)
http://mackila.com/airsoft/atp/03-a-01.htm (http://mackila.com/airsoft/atp/03-a-01.htm)
(http://mackila.com/airsoft/atp/images/03-a-019.gif)
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Roundballs have been used a lot in .50 .45 and .357, back in the day when ammo for airguns was scarce the Roundball was king for Big bores,
they are plenty accurate no need for any of this backspin :)
For a .30 I don't know who makes them but if a manufacturer would make a good one they'll be plenty accurate, Hornady .457 and .495 have been proving themselves for many years in .45 and .50 airguns
I can't remember the exact numbers but back when I was using the roundballs for my .357s I think they where on par pricewise with the good .22 pellets :) :)
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Roundballs have been used a lot in .50 .45 and .357, back in the day when ammo for airguns was scarce the Roundball was king for Big bores,
they are plenty accurate no need for any of this backspin :)
For a .30 I don't know who makes them but if a manufacturer would make a good one they'll be plenty accurate, Hornady .457 and .495 have been proving themselves for many years in .45 and .50 airguns
I can't remember the exact numbers but back when I was using the roundballs for my .357s I think they where on par pricewise with the good .22 pellets :) :)
Oh yeah I do realize that round ball can be very accurate. (e.g. There was a video I posted up earlier in this thread showing .358 round ball more accurate at 45 yards than slugs.)
I wrote about the size consistency because I am assuming it would be important for the backspin. (This wasn't clear in the post though).
P.S. It looks like you were probably writing your post while I was doing my edit which has the information showing the effect of varying levels of backspin on trajectory. (Notice that backspin can actually make trajectory worse if it is not sufficient......but once it hits a certain level the trajectory is very flat.)
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There's no need for roundballs to be perfect since very little engages the rifling.
if you pursuing the backspin then you need to shoot out of a smooth bore, no amount of backspin will compare with the ball coming out of a rifled barrel
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Just noticed that H&N makes roundballs for .30 .357 .45
Crazy pricey tho
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if you pursuing the backspin then you need to shoot out of a smooth bore, no amount of backspin will compare with the ball coming out of a rifled barrel
Yes, most airsoft guns use smoothbore.
However, there is an airsoft barrel that has traditional rifling, but the rifling is not there to impart spin to the BB. (See explanation in quote below)
https://youtu.be/vH5gKaOSV2A?t=88 (https://youtu.be/vH5gKaOSV2A?t=88)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecjLyld-0q0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecjLyld-0q0)
https://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/3yj2b6/airsoft_rifled_barrels_are_they_worth_a_damn/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/3yj2b6/airsoft_rifled_barrels_are_they_worth_a_damn/)
"How is it physically possible to have a rifled barrel impart a spin on the BB and combine it with the Magnus effect of the hop-up? It is two totally different axes of rotation!" A1. Actually, the barrel ISN'T "rifled" in the standard sense of a real gun. Yes, the inner barrel has spiral rifling grooves in it, but the BB does NOT touch the groove. The purpose of the TWIST inner barrel is not to put a rifling spin on the BB. It is to put a "cyclone" of air around the BB, to help float it through the inner barrel and PREVENT the BB from touching the side walls of the inner barrel at all.
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Yeah Airsoft and Airguns total different thing, worlds apart.
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price of ammo is not a condition of caliber versatility, nor is the need of a pump or not.
Really? Of course it is. I and many others would not lob thousands of .30 per year. The cost really does add up, even if you cast your own. And as for the need of a pump or more capable air source? Don’t these bigger calibers require more air? While we understand the niche for some of the larger air gun calibers. It’s not why the majority of airgun shooters get into the airgun game. At some point a line is drawn and a better tool used. If I needed a thirty caliber airgun, I would deploy my .22 rimfire.
I'm afraid you just still don't get the point :o :o
You just go of on tangents that have nothing to do with the question at hand,
....again if I take at face value just that one point that you bring up of cost of ammo, I can just say " well I shoot my .357 arrows so my cost is zero since I just reuse them "
Same thing, " I can just recycle my lead and cast my own in .30 and .357 so my cost per round will be cheaper then you .22 in the long run"
you are diverging from what is the most versatile caliber to what is the best air comsumpion all of a sudden, and you just end up busting out your .22 rimfire ::) ::) ::)
.50 just like .17 will never be the most versatile, it's a compromise, a middle ground, no other caliber can cover the spectrum like .30 or .357
Heck with my .357 I can hunt squirrels in the morning, eat them for lunch since I didn't waste any meat and then go and hunt an elephant in the afternoon ;D ;D ;D ;D
let's see if your .22 is that versatile ;D ;D ;D LOL
Don’t be afraid 😟. I reload for powder burners and if you factor the value of your time? Then it’s not cheap. As for theoretically practical and practical in practice? If we’ll talking about reusing a projectile? I would break out my archery tackle then? Everything is versatile to a point... So I’m afraid it’s you who are diverging. The big bores are not practical or versatile for the majority of air gunners. Notice how you did not address the “fact” that big bores consume “big air”. And using a crapload of emojis does not strengthen your point.
Luis I doubt I'll get anything over .25 myself, some day I'd like to have a big bore however until the popularity rises which will help the prices come down I won't be buying one. Here in Michigan you're required .35 cal or bigger and having to be a pcp are the rules here for shooting big game. The Seneca Recluse is tempting but I wouldn't use it that much unless I started exploding squirrel heads with it. That .25 Sentry that I've got doing 50fpe would be good enough for a close range coyote with even a heart lung shot I think. The slugs that I shoot from it expand a lot and it would carry plenty of energy up to 50 yards I think but that would be about as far as I'd shoot one.
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Luis,
I was with you on the .22 until the arrows were brought up, and then I flipped to .35 . . . . and I have no use for .35 personally.
When we engage in these silly debates about stuff that does not matter, it is important to at least have some common basis for the discussion ;). In the case of this pointless thread (meant with all due respect, as it really does not matter as we don't have to pick one to live with) the key word is "versatile," and that boils down to the ability to do different things. The "how well" matters to some extent but is very much secondary (and cost effectiveness and energy efficiency are very much in this category). Probably the best way to look at it would be to lay out a simple table of all "tasks" we could list and check off the task if the caliber could do it at least reasonably well.
I do think (in my opinion) that if we limited the projectiles to "lead" then the .22 would be at least tied with any other (for example, it can do field target but not as well as .177, where .35 effectively can't - there has to be a minimal functional limit on tasks - and neither can do formal 10m target shooting, but both could do informal 10m target shooting). Once you add the large number of "tasks" that arrows add, the contest is pretty much over . . .
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Nomad is right I miss the point on this one... I thought it was about the most versatile caliber. Not a theoretical “do all”. Caliber, and are you really going to drive down the .30 to sub 14 ft lbs?
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Nomad is right I miss the point on this one... I thought it was about the most versatile caliber. Not a theoretical “do all”. Caliber, and are you really going to drive down the .30 to sub 14 ft lbs?
I would in my Leshiy.
However, "Most Versatile caliber" would assume one thing and one thing only: the ability to handle the most situations.
A .30 or .35 wins, hands down. Imagine the Nasty-Nine or Dirty-Thirty, a Leshiy tuned for ~ 40 FPE lobbing pellets at 520 FPS and utterly annihilating said squirrel's skulls. Zero meat wasted. Then grabbing a Texan, Rex, or similar in .35 (or .30 for that matter) and popping big-game with arrows. Clean heart-lung shots, no matter the size of the game, it drops and dies. Interject slugs for coup de grace.
You guys talking about switching to powderburners or "for my needs" situations are simply being biased, which is okay, but truly misses the real point of the "most Versatile Airgun Caliber. The answer is the one that has the capacity to hunt, plink, or be used for targets. The simple fact both .30 and .35 are excelling at long range target competitions, clearly have a known advantage by offering slugs, bolts, and pellets, and perhaps most importantly can be tuned way down or way up (from springer-power levels up to "elk hunting") simply proves the .30 and .35 are ultimately the most versatile. Meaning having the most versatility, meaning able to be used in the most situations be it paper, pests, or filling the freezer.
Some food for thought: my Leshiy has some of the cheapest barrel swapping from from .177 up through .20, .22, .25, .30, and .35. One of the most-subscribed pesting channels on YouTube has a gentleman who regularly used .30 and .35 pellets for backyard pesting by merging the Huma sub-12-FPE and high-output Huma regulators to achieve an efficient "low power" backyard friendly tune in .30 and .35. Pellets moving ~ 40 to 45 FPE. Given my propensity to buy airguns based on simply being the most versatile tool for the job, I think you can all understand why I still consider a choice like mine offering literally the most versatility especially since the .30 and .35 barrels extend capabilities into the Big-Bore arena. Will I shoot bolts once I get my .30 or .35 barrels? No idea. But there's no doubt in my mind the .30 and .35 are simply the most versatile calibers since pellets, slugs, and bolts can be shot whether tuned way down or way up.
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Nomad is right I miss the point on this one... I thought it was about the most versatile caliber. Not a theoretical “do all”. Caliber, and are you really going to drive down the .30 to sub 14 ft lbs?
I would in my Leshiy.
However, "Most Versatile caliber" would assume one thing and one thing only: the ability to handle the most situations.
A .30 or .35 wins, hands down. Imagine the Nasty-Nine or Dirty-Thirty, a Leshiy tuned for ~ 40 FPE lobbing pellets at 520 FPS and utterly annihilating said squirrel's skulls. Zero meat wasted. Then grabbing a Texan, Rex, or similar in .35 (or .30 for that matter) and popping big-game with arrows. Clean heart-lung shots, no matter the size of the game, it drops and dies. Interject slugs for coup de grace.
You guys talking about switching to powderburners or "for my needs" situations are simply being biased, which is okay, but truly misses the real point of the "most Versatile Airgun Caliber. The answer is the one that has the capacity to hunt, plink, or be used for targets. The simple fact both .30 and .35 are excelling at long range target competitions, clearly have a known advantage by offering slugs, bolts, and pellets, and perhaps most importantly can be tuned way down or way up (from springer-power levels up to "elk hunting") simply proves the .30 and .35 are ultimately the most versatile. Meaning having the most versatility, meaning able to be used in the most situations be it paper, pests, or filling the freezer.
Some food for thought: my Leshiy has some of the cheapest barrel swapping from from .177 up through .20, .22, .25, .30, and .35. One of the most-subscribed pesting channels on YouTube has a gentleman who regularly used .30 and .35 pellets for backyard pesting by merging the Huma sub-12-FPE and high-output Huma regulators to achieve an efficient "low power" backyard friendly tune in .30 and .35. Pellets moving ~ 40 to 45 FPE. Given my propensity to buy airguns based on simply being the most versatile tool for the job, I think you can all understand why I still consider a choice like mine offering literally the most versatility especially since the .30 and .35 barrels extend capabilities into the Big-Bore arena. Will I shoot bolts once I get my .30 or .35 barrels? No idea. But there's no doubt in my mind the .30 and .35 are simply the most versatile calibers since pellets, slugs, and bolts can be shot whether tuned way down or way up.
LOL....there are some rather silly comparisons going on in this "most versatile pellet" thread! Hummmm......using the same logic a Peter Built 18 wheeler is more "versatile" for a trucker than a Ford ranger. A PeterBuilt can go almost everywhere the Ranger can but the Ranger can't haul tons of freight. Evidently the cost of fuel, weight, size, fuel consumption, registration, taxes etc. also has nothing to do with "versatility". How about a 24 pound sledge hammer can drive tacks or railroad spikes but a 20 ounce framing hammer can't "normally" be used to drive railroad spikes. That makes the 24 pound sledge hammer more "versatile" than the 20 ounce hammer using the same "logic"!
Anywhoo, the "most versatile caliber" is dependent on the intent and usage by the shooter not the size of the gun and projectile. :) ;)
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Nomad is right I miss the point on this one... I thought it was about the most versatile caliber. Not a theoretical “do all”. Caliber, and are you really going to drive down the .30 to sub 14 ft lbs?
I would in my Leshiy.
However, "Most Versatile caliber" would assume one thing and one thing only: the ability to handle the most situations.
A .30 or .35 wins, hands down. Imagine the Nasty-Nine or Dirty-Thirty, a Leshiy tuned for ~ 40 FPE lobbing pellets at 520 FPS and utterly annihilating said squirrel's skulls. Zero meat wasted. Then grabbing a Texan, Rex, or similar in .35 (or .30 for that matter) and popping big-game with arrows. Clean heart-lung shots, no matter the size of the game, it drops and dies. Interject slugs for coup de grace.
You guys talking about switching to powderburners or "for my needs" situations are simply being biased, which is okay, but truly misses the real point of the "most Versatile Airgun Caliber. The answer is the one that has the capacity to hunt, plink, or be used for targets. The simple fact both .30 and .35 are excelling at long range target competitions, clearly have a known advantage by offering slugs, bolts, and pellets, and perhaps most importantly can be tuned way down or way up (from springer-power levels up to "elk hunting") simply proves the .30 and .35 are ultimately the most versatile. Meaning having the most versatility, meaning able to be used in the most situations be it paper, pests, or filling the freezer.
Some food for thought: my Leshiy has some of the cheapest barrel swapping from from .177 up through .20, .22, .25, .30, and .35. One of the most-subscribed pesting channels on YouTube has a gentleman who regularly used .30 and .35 pellets for backyard pesting by merging the Huma sub-12-FPE and high-output Huma regulators to achieve an efficient "low power" backyard friendly tune in .30 and .35. Pellets moving ~ 40 to 45 FPE. Given my propensity to buy airguns based on simply being the most versatile tool for the job, I think you can all understand why I still consider a choice like mine offering literally the most versatility especially since the .30 and .35 barrels extend capabilities into the Big-Bore arena. Will I shoot bolts once I get my .30 or .35 barrels? No idea. But there's no doubt in my mind the .30 and .35 are simply the most versatile calibers since pellets, slugs, and bolts can be shot whether tuned way down or way up.
LOL....there are some rather silly comparisons going on in this "most versatile pellet" thread! Hummmm......using the same logic a Peter Built 18 wheeler is more "versatile" for a trucker than a Ford ranger. A PeterBuilt can go almost everywhere the Ranger can but the Ranger can't haul tons of freight. Evidently the cost of fuel, weight, size, fuel consumption, registration, taxes etc. also has nothing to do with "versatility". How about a 24 pound sledge hammer can drive tacks or railroad spikes but a 20 ounce framing hammer can't "normally" be used to drive railroad spikes. That makes the 24 pound sledge hammer more "versatile" than the 20 ounce hammer using the same "logic"!
Anywhoo, the "most versatile caliber" is dependent on the intent and usage by the shooter not the size of the gun and projectile. :) ;)
Exactly why I chose the .20 and exactly why I'm standing behind my choice.... ;)
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Yeah, the latest trend in .22 heavy pellets and bullets sure has increased the .22 spectrum by a lot,.....only thing is that there isn't that many .22 guns that are that easy to power up.
there are plenty of airguns that can go to 70-80 fpe. i modded the Liberty to shoot 78fpe with pellets and 69fpe with slugs. going much more than that greatly decreases the shot count but i can go a bit harder still. the gauntlet can do 60fpe in 22. alot of guns can reach it if you spend the time and or money. it doesnt have to be a $2000 airgun.
i do think .22 pelllets .217 and .223 slugs are the way to go. as versatility.
.30 and up for pure energy.
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Nomad is right I miss the point on this one... I thought it was about the most versatile caliber. Not a theoretical “do all”. Caliber, and are you really going to drive down the .30 to sub 14 ft lbs?
I would in my Leshiy.
However, "Most Versatile caliber" would assume one thing and one thing only: the ability to handle the most situations.
A .30 or .35 wins, hands down. Imagine the Nasty-Nine or Dirty-Thirty, a Leshiy tuned for ~ 40 FPE lobbing pellets at 520 FPS and utterly annihilating said squirrel's skulls. Zero meat wasted. Then grabbing a Texan, Rex, or similar in .35 (or .30 for that matter) and popping big-game with arrows. Clean heart-lung shots, no matter the size of the game, it drops and dies. Interject slugs for coup de grace.
You guys talking about switching to powderburners or "for my needs" situations are simply being biased, which is okay, but truly misses the real point of the "most Versatile Airgun Caliber. The answer is the one that has the capacity to hunt, plink, or be used for targets. The simple fact both .30 and .35 are excelling at long range target competitions, clearly have a known advantage by offering slugs, bolts, and pellets, and perhaps most importantly can be tuned way down or way up (from springer-power levels up to "elk hunting") simply proves the .30 and .35 are ultimately the most versatile. Meaning having the most versatility, meaning able to be used in the most situations be it paper, pests, or filling the freezer.
Some food for thought: my Leshiy has some of the cheapest barrel swapping from from .177 up through .20, .22, .25, .30, and .35. One of the most-subscribed pesting channels on YouTube has a gentleman who regularly used .30 and .35 pellets for backyard pesting by merging the Huma sub-12-FPE and high-output Huma regulators to achieve an efficient "low power" backyard friendly tune in .30 and .35. Pellets moving ~ 40 to 45 FPE. Given my propensity to buy airguns based on simply being the most versatile tool for the job, I think you can all understand why I still consider a choice like mine offering literally the most versatility especially since the .30 and .35 barrels extend capabilities into the Big-Bore arena. Will I shoot bolts once I get my .30 or .35 barrels? No idea. But there's no doubt in my mind the .30 and .35 are simply the most versatile calibers since pellets, slugs, and bolts can be shot whether tuned way down or way up.
Bingo !!!
that is precisely the point,....I wish I could be that articulate :) :) LOL
The counterpoint to me sounds like;
" Well, I realize that your 4x4 truck can be used on the road, you can go on mud, sand, steep inclines, snow, extremely uneven terrains, and you can haul tons of trash to the dump,
but my sedan even if can only drive on the blacktop and take one bag at a time is more versatile because uses less gas " :) :) :) that's the logic I hear :)
also
"it's not logic or practical for the vast majority to buy a truck "
which is absolutely true, you buy what your needs require you to buy, but still the truck drives on blacktop and much more regardless if you only need a sedan for your needs.
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WOW ... 140 posts later :o
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*Slowly scans the room for eyes, proceeds to remove spoon from pot* This stew is starting to taste bitter
I mean, technically the question was 'What caliber do you think is the most versatile' which makes it subjective to each person who answers, no wrong answers in this thread except those who wanna debate... You guys are getting all hot and bothered over nothing more than a difference in personal opinion while viewing the question through a different lens. Ultimately, any answer provided in this thread isn't going to budge life's needle much in any way. ;)
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According to Texas law , the 30 caliber or anything that shoot 215 fpe. :-* :-*
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*Slowly scans the room for eyes, proceeds to remove spoon from pot* This stew is starting to taste bitter
I mean, technically the question was 'What caliber do you think is the most versatile' which makes it subjective to each person who answers, no wrong answers in this thread except those who wanna debate... You guys are getting all hot and bothered over nothing more than a difference in personal opinion while viewing the question through a different lens. Ultimately, any answer provided in this thread isn't going to budge life's needle much in any way. ;)
Other than the 'hot and bothered' part, I'm totally in agreement. This is exactly how I interpreted the original post.
I answered accordingly.... twice. ;)
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Versatility... this all with the same gun (not advocating one gun) just an example... .22 caliber 32 FPE PCP. All with the same 18 grain JSBs. Sparrows at the feeder at 15 yards, power level 2. Woodchuck behind the barn at 50 yards, power level 6. Plinking, power level 4, inside the barn, power level 1. No reworking of HS, regulator, etc. Just shoot, that’s versatile. Grab and go versatile... but if your going to have multiple .30 or larger PCPs, shooting from 12 FPE up to the limit. I stand corrected. This has been a good thread... I enjoy being enlightened by others... but still am touting the .22
And while I respect the enumerated versatility of the .30. I just can’t see plinking or target shooting hundreds of rounds per day or week. That is cost prohibitive for me and counterintuitive to why many go to airguns in the first place. Less expensive shooting (to a point), and use in smaller environments. And if I were going on a once in lifetime elk hunt. I would definitely bring a powder burner.
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And while I respect the enumerated versatility of the .30. I just can’t see plinking or target shooting hundreds of rounds per day or week. That is cost prohibitive for me (snip)
JSB 18.13 grain is not that cheap.
Going by Airgun Depot's prices it is $19 for 500 or $57 for 2000:
https://www.airgundepot.com/jsb-546287.html (https://www.airgundepot.com/jsb-546287.html)
Ballistic products gives you 1360 #1 buckshot (.300 cal) for $39 ----> https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Super-Buck-Lead-1-8-lb_jar-300/productinfo/SBK01/ (https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Super-Buck-Lead-1-8-lb_jar-300/productinfo/SBK01/) (works out to be the same price per round as buying 2000 JSB pellets for $57)
Now granted, some of the Ballistic products buckshot maybe be out of spec.....but even with that you are not very far ahead by buying JSB 4 tins at a time.
P.S. Remington #1 buckshot is 2/3 the price per shot of the Ballistic Products #1 buckshot, but I haven't seen any reviews of it yet (Still even if only 2 out 3 balls were good you would be at the same price per shot as buying 2000 JSB pellets):
https://www.precisionreloading.com/cart.php# (https://www.precisionreloading.com/cart.php#)!l=RM&i=S23774
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And while I respect the enumerated versatility of the .30. I just can’t see plinking or target shooting hundreds of rounds per day or week. That is cost prohibitive for me (snip)
JSB 18.13 grain is not that cheap.
Going by Airgun Depot's prices it is $19 for 500 or $57 for 2000:
https://www.airgundepot.com/jsb-546287.html (https://www.airgundepot.com/jsb-546287.html)
Ballistic products gives you 1360 #1 buckshot (.300 cal) for $39 ----> https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Super-Buck-Lead-1-8-lb_jar-300/productinfo/SBK01/ (https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Super-Buck-Lead-1-8-lb_jar-300/productinfo/SBK01/) (works out to be the same price per round as buying 2000 JSB pellets for $57)
Now granted, some of the Ballistic products buckshot maybe be out of spec.....but even with that you are not very far ahead by buying JSB 4 tins at a time.
P.S. Remington #1 buckshot is 2/3 the price per shot of the Ballistic Products #1 buckshot, but I haven't seen any reviews of it yet:
https://www.precisionreloading.com/cart.php# (https://www.precisionreloading.com/cart.php#)!l=RM&i=S23774
I think I'm gonna order some of them roundballs since the .360 worked really well on the .357s
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And while I respect the enumerated versatility of the .30. I just can’t see plinking or target shooting hundreds of rounds per day or week. That is cost prohibitive for me (snip)
JSB 18.13 grain is not that cheap.
Going by Airgun Depot's prices it is $19 for 500 or $57 for 2000:
https://www.airgundepot.com/jsb-546287.html (https://www.airgundepot.com/jsb-546287.html)
Ballistic products gives you 1360 #1 buckshot (.300 cal) for $39 ----> https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Super-Buck-Lead-1-8-lb_jar-300/productinfo/SBK01/ (https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Super-Buck-Lead-1-8-lb_jar-300/productinfo/SBK01/) (works out to be the same price per round as buying 2000 JSB pellets for $57)
Now granted, some of the Ballistic products buckshot maybe be out of spec.....but even with that you are not very far ahead by buying JSB 4 tins at a time.
P.S. Remington #1 buckshot is 2/3 the price per shot of the Ballistic Products #1 buckshot, but I haven't seen any reviews of it yet:
https://www.precisionreloading.com/cart.php# (https://www.precisionreloading.com/cart.php#)!l=RM&i=S23774
I think I'm gonna order some of them roundballs since the .360 worked really well on the .357s
Slug your barrel before you place an order.
Reason is that some .30 cal air gun barrels are spec'd several thousands larger than the standardized groove diameter of .300" and some are are not.
For example, Lother Walther .30 Airgun barrel is spec'd at .306" (https://www.lothar-walther.com/gun-barrel-blanks/airgun-barrels/standard-profile/89/airgun-blank-no-choke-twist-16.30-air-od.67-l-28.03-precision-rifle-steel-tube (https://www.lothar-walther.com/gun-barrel-blanks/airgun-barrels/standard-profile/89/airgun-blank-no-choke-twist-16.30-air-od.67-l-28.03-precision-rifle-steel-tube)) while TJ's .30 is the correct .300".
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Gonna buy both .300 and .310
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.50
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How can .17 and .22 be more versatile ( going by the definition of versatile ) in a general sense ( Target or hunting ) .......then .30 or .357 ?
Other then being cheaper ( which isn't a criteria in versatility ) they might have one advantage but then fall way behind in the broad spectrum of applications ( like long range target shooting for example )
I understand " PERSONAL " preference or applications, but in a general sense, cover the spectrum on all applications .17 and .22 (maybe a very, very High power .22 with a ton of up and down adjustments can sneak in there but not your standard .22 ) cannot touch .30 or .357
Would these targets still be useful after even one hit by a .40 projectile?
(https://i.imgur.com/iaSr08wl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/8SZm6IEl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/v6Ug0yHl.jpg)
NO
I think a relatively large caliber round ball could work for 20 FPE (or even 12 FPE with perhaps a smaller caliber roundball) but you would have to use backspin or else the trajectory would be like a rainbow.
P.S. Not sure how accurate a round ball with enough backspin would be but I do like the idea of "low speed lead round ball with enough backspin" being simple to use if the trajectory could be flat for 55 yards (see yellow line in chart below as a example of what is possible with even a light for caliber roundball using enough back spin).
http://mackila.com/airsoft/atp/03-a-01.htm (http://mackila.com/airsoft/atp/03-a-01.htm)
(http://mackila.com/airsoft/atp/images/03-a-019.gif)
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round balls? who would shoot round balls? back spin? thats more like airsoft stuff, cant back spin a lead ball i dont think
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round balls? who would shoot round balls? back spin? thats more like airsoft stuff, cant back spin a lead ball i dont think
I agree, this backspin thing is not something valuable for airguns, it's an airsorf thing.
But Roundballs have been shot out of airguns for a long time and very effectively too.
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.50
.50 has the largest variety of ammo available:
1. Arrows (although I think this may be the .495 rather than the more common .510)
2. Slugs
3. Shotshells (I think the Air Venturi ones are .495)
4. Round balls
5. Sabots (.510, with slug or round ball)
6. Veterinarian Darts (Using either .510 smooth bore or .510 rifled)
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My next 2 guns are gonna be Rex carbine and REX pistol in .50 cal :) :) :)
coming in as a pair :)
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"Most versatile" is wide open to interpretation. The answer depends on what targets/vermin/game you want to address.
Since only hints at what versatile means were offered in the OP; I declare the .22 cal "most versatile".
Of course, if all you are shooting is deer sized game and up, then the .22 has to be off the list. Else, the very wide range of pellets and slugs available in .22 should count for something.
For home brewed projectiles, the .25 or larger may be more versatile.
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Backspin will make the trajectory flat over some useful range, but it won't make any given shot accurate. Nor the next one.
How would one impart backspin to a lead ball? By means of a sharp "speedbump" at the muzzle perhaps. The end of the barrel would need to be raised or bent up slightly, to offset the downwards reaction from running into the speedbump. The round ball will suffer considerable damage from running into the speedbump.
The problem here is that a plastic sphere is very strong for the change in momentum induces force required to induce backspin. Lead is heavy and soft, so the change in momentum to impart that spin will take so much force that the lead is deformed significantly.
Perhaps a curved smoothbore tube, that is formed as part of a down-pointing spiral could be used. It would roll a lead sphere more gently and use friction against the upper wall to roll the ball. You might have better results with a steel ball....
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OH, wow! I'd figure that could happen if muzzle report was too loud, but I wonder if they can hear the pellet cutting the air?
Boris the rat, was covered in this thread: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=155178.msg155718137#msg155718137 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=155178.msg155718137#msg155718137)
Video now seems to be set to private, but posts following the linked one above may offer a clue.
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I wanted to find the rat dodging the 300 FPS .30 pellet video. So, after running into the black rectangle on the above linked video, with no other info displayed on that page, I used the "way back machine" web archive to find this:
The Airgun Review Channel has made all its videos private. Probably after receiving too many complaints about being nasty to vermin...
Archive of rat dodger video link:
https://web.archive.org/web/20130904050218/www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiJy1An_wf8 (https://web.archive.org/web/20130904050218/www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiJy1An_wf8)
Video listing page: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheDefinitiveAirgunReview/videos (https://www.youtube.com/c/TheDefinitiveAirgunReview/videos)
(https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=175694.0;attach=321489;image)
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versatility
[ˌvərsəˈtilədē]
NOUN
ability to adapt or be adapted to many different functions or activities.
Hmmm. While .22 can be claimed to be the most versatile, it simply is not, at least not until .22 bolts are invented and laws are changed. You see, bolts with broadheads can be use to harvest any game currently walking on this planet. Else, large game would never be able to be procured with archery gear. We have pellets and slugs in every caliber, but arrows/bolts only in the larger bores. Since the very definition of versatility is the ability to adapt, once one of you fine folks comes up with .22 bolt or arrow you can continue the claim your low-energy projectiles work. Please be mindful I'm taking the stance of truth regarding "most versatile", not the biased "most versatile to me and my needs". You can simply do more with a bigger bore because you have the option to shoot way the F out there as well as hurl bolts, something no .177 or .22 can do thus meaning them dinky bores are not truly versatile.
Now I'll take the "biased for my needs" route- since I live in VA and deer-hunting requires a minimum bore size of .35 (thank you Person in NC for ruining it for us), I can unequivocally state that anything smaller than .35 can not to be considered versatile in VA if it cannot be used to legally harvest deer, hence .35 is the most versatile.
Thus, by both truth and bias, .35 is the most versatile.
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I am pretty sure this does not imply "air bolts".
What caliber do you think is the most versatile? (You can specify twist rate also if you want to)
If air bolts are important, then a larger caliber would seem better; no? Perhaps it depends on whether the arrow goes into the tube; or slips over it? With a .50, you can shoot ball, pellet, slug or arrow...
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For small to small-medium game .22 caliber would be most versatile imo. A 22 caliber heavy pellet can get to 70+ FPE with exceptional range and penetration. Also most airgun platforms power lvl is not efficient for bigger calibers. WHen you start getting into 100+fpe pcps and bolts for big game then a higher caliber for sure.
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I am pretty sure this does not imply "air bolts".
What caliber do you think is the most versatile? (You can specify twist rate also if you want to)
If air bolts are important, then a larger caliber would seem better; no? Perhaps it depends on whether the arrow goes into the tube; or slips over it? With a .50, you can shoot ball, pellet, slug or arrow...
The caliber is the topic, not the projectile. Larger bores can do what smaller can. Smaller cannot do what larger can. IE: you will not see any .177 airguns shooting at 350 FPE currently.
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The caliber is the topic, not the projectile.
Yet twist rate was mentioned, implying a spin stabilized projectile. :)
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I prefer .177.
I shoot targets only between 10 and 30 yards.
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versatility
[ˌvərsəˈtilədē]
NOUN
ability to adapt or be adapted to many different functions or activities.
Hmmm. While .22 can be claimed to be the most versatile, it simply is not, at least not until .22 bolts are invented and laws are changed. You see, bolts with broadheads can be use to harvest any game currently walking on this planet. Else, large game would never be able to be procured with archery gear. We have pellets and slugs in every caliber, but arrows/bolts only in the larger bores. Since the very definition of versatility is the ability to adapt, once one of you fine folks comes up with .22 bolt or arrow you can continue the claim your low-energy projectiles work. Please be mindful I'm taking the stance of truth regarding "most versatile", not the biased "most versatile to me and my needs". You can simply do more with a bigger bore because you have the option to shoot way the F out there as well as hurl bolts, something no .177 or .22 can do thus meaning them dinky bores are not truly versatile.
Now I'll take the "biased for my needs" route- since I live in VA and deer-hunting requires a minimum bore size of .35 (thank you Person in NC for ruining it for us), I can unequivocally state that anything smaller than .35 can not to be considered versatile in VA if it cannot be used to legally harvest deer, hence .35 is the most versatile.
Thus, by both truth and bias, .35 is the most versatile.
"(thank you Person in NC for ruining it for us)"
LOL....you're welcome! :)
I had decided to "let this one go" a while back, however since you brought it up again...........
The issue was never about AIRGUNS & CALIBER but the fact that it was LEGAL to hunt deer in VA with a .22 cal springer but not a .222 centerfire. Hummmm....even a .22 magnum rimfire can put out over 300fpe but it's illegal. VA still has no fpe limits on airguns used for deer, only caliber.
For my brother and I hunting with a non-resident permit in VA we couldn't use a .222 for deer because it wasn't .23 cal even though it put out 1000 fpe, However at that time we could legally take a .25 cal Beeman R1 into the woods to legally hunt deer! LOL....how 'bout them rulz?
Some VA game laws........
https://dwr.virginia.gov/hunting/regulations/general/
From the above...............
(https://i.imgur.com/BKlZq5vh.png)
*Air guns (.35 caliber or LARGER)
LOL....no fpe restriction for airguns?
*Rifles and pistols using rimfire ammunition and air guns (.35 caliber or SMALLER)
So can the .35 cal pellet be both legal and illegal for deer?
*Rifles and pistols using centerfire ammunition (.23 caliber or LARGER) Pistols must generate at least 350 foot pounds of energy or greater.
Why no fpe restrictions for airguns?
*Rifles and pistols using centerfire ammunition (SMALLER than .23 caliber)
A .222 with 1000+fpe isn't legal for deer but a .35 cal pellet gun is legal?
Anywhoo....the VA game laws seem illogical making me wonder why there were ANY fpe restrictions at all for the powder burners if "ultra light airgunning" is also an ethical method of taking deer. If no power restrictions are ethical for taking deer, that's assuming that the purpose of fpe restrictions was the ethical harvesting of deer.
I took the initiative to call a "VA game rule maker" questioning the lack of fpe requirements for airgunners if the fpe restrictions for "powder burner hunters" taking of deer. A review of the laws was done and the current convoluted "minimum airgun caliber law" was hatched. LOL....the According to the "official rulz" me minimum cal for a black powder deer hunter is .45 cal but the airgunner cal minimum is .35 cal with no fpe requirement! How 'bout them rulz?
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5 years ago I might have said .25 was most versatile. However, the recent popularity of .22 slugs than can be pushed to 100+ yards has changed my mind. With .22 you can have everything from a 15ft lb backyard plinker to a high powers long range varmint gun.
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I’d say it is pretty much a draw between .177 and .357.
Even Though most .357 don’t make enough power to hunt big game in Texas, according to the law.
But you are not shooting any HFT with a .357 either.
Neither are you shooting a .357 in your back yard if you live in a subdivision. Even in an unincorporated area somewhere that it is within the law- better have a heck of a backstop. More like a big dirt berm or something.
With a quiet (accurate) .177 Springer and a .357 PCP that makes plenty of power you’d have all your bases covered for any airgun situation in the U.S.
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I am pretty sure this does not imply "air bolts".
What caliber do you think is the most versatile? (You can specify twist rate also if you want to)
If air bolts are important, then a larger caliber would seem better; no? Perhaps it depends on whether the arrow goes into the tube; or slips over it? With a .50, you can shoot ball, pellet, slug or arrow...
.357 can shoot the soft Predator at 500 fpe for 44 FPE, not something that is overly dangerous for backyard,
can shoot Roundballs, Domed pellets, Cast slugs, and AirBolts......all out the barrel all one after the other,
When hunting I have an Airbolt loaded but have 190gr bullets set up for fast follow up if needed.
one of these days I'll chrono what fps the REX shoots the Predators at the half power cocking level.
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For small to small-medium game .22 caliber would be most versatile imo. A 22 caliber heavy pellet can get to 70+ FPE with exceptional range and penetration. Also most airgun platforms power lvl is not efficient for bigger calibers. WHen you start getting into 100+fpe pcps and bolts for big game then a higher caliber for sure.
Even for small game seems the trend has moved much towards .25,
if staying under the "mid bores" .30 and .357 the .25 caliber then would surpass the .17 and .22 in every single category but cost.
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The caliber is the topic, not the projectile.
Yet twist rate was mentioned, implying a spin stabilized projectile. :)
Twist rate was mentioned, but not demanded. So I guess a .35 smoothbore using air for propulsory mechanics is not allowed?
LOL....you're welcome! :)
I had decided to "let this one go" a while back, however since you brought it up again...........
The issue was never about AIRGUNS & CALIBER but the fact that it was LEGAL to hunt deer in VA with a .22 cal springer but not a .222 centerfire. Hummmm....even a .22 magnum rimfire can put out over 300fpe but it's illegal. VA still has no fpe limits on airguns used for deer, only caliber.
For my brother and I hunting with a non-resident permit in VA we couldn't use a .222 for deer because it wasn't .23 cal even though it put out 1000 fpe, However at that time we could legally take a .25 cal Beeman R1 into the woods to legally hunt deer! LOL....how 'bout them rulz?
Some VA game laws........
https://dwr.virginia.gov/hunting/regulations/general/
From the above...............
(https://i.imgur.com/BKlZq5vh.png)
*Air guns (.35 caliber or LARGER)
LOL....no fpe restriction for airguns?
*Rifles and pistols using rimfire ammunition and air guns (.35 caliber or SMALLER)
So can the .35 cal pellet be both legal and illegal for deer?
*Rifles and pistols using centerfire ammunition (.23 caliber or LARGER) Pistols must generate at least 350 foot pounds of energy or greater.
Why no fpe restrictions for airguns?
*Rifles and pistols using centerfire ammunition (SMALLER than .23 caliber)
A .222 with 1000+fpe isn't legal for deer but a .35 cal pellet gun is legal?
Anywhoo....the VA game laws seem illogical making me wonder why there were ANY fpe restrictions at all for the powder burners if "ultra light airgunning" is also an ethical method of taking deer. If no power restrictions are ethical for taking deer, that's assuming that the purpose of fpe restrictions was the ethical harvesting of deer.
I took the initiative to call a "VA game rule maker" questioning the lack of fpe requirements for airgunners if the fpe restrictions for "powder burner hunters" taking of deer. A review of the laws was done and the current convoluted "minimum airgun caliber law" was hatched. LOL....the According to the "official rulz" me minimum cal for a black powder deer hunter is .45 cal but the airgunner cal minimum is .35 cal with no fpe requirement! How 'bout them rulz?
No idea what rulz are. You can make any claim you want and that's fine; it impacts me not.
Some folks get unhappy because they don't get their way so they go out of their way to push for more legislation, because rules and laws are certainly something we need more of. What is so hilarious is that the DGIF has no clue about anything airguns or archery because they do not do any testing nor have they kept up with technology.
Back to the topic: Per the .30 and larger bores: tune down for paper, tune up to power. Shoot bolts when ya need to kill something. In simplest terms, as the .25 bolts never materialized, the most versatile caliber, as per the definition of versatility, is whatever caliber offers pellet, slug, and bolt-shooting. Anything smaller than .30 does not allow arrow shooting except where the arrow/bolt slides OVER the barrel, in which case bore size is actually a non-starter.
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I would expand on that :
"Tune down" .......for paper and small game ( I've shown that .357 is by no means to much for squirrels, if shot in the right place there's no wasted meat. )
"Tune up" ......for long range paper and silhouette target, and big game ( with the Arrows can go as far up as Elephant )
Talk about versatility ? ? ? :) :) :)
..... I will buy those rubber pellets, ...if I find the link ;) and test them at low power to see what they do.
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.357 can shoot the soft Predator at 500 fpe for 44 FPE, not something that is overly dangerous for backyard,
can shoot Roundballs, Domed pellets, Cast slugs, and AirBolts......all out the barrel all one after the other,
When hunting I have an Airbolt loaded but have 190gr bullets set up for fast follow up if needed.
one of these days I'll chrono what fps the REX shoots the Predators at the half power cocking level.
Manny, you are 100% correct in that the .357 is the most versatile air gun for the above reasons; but it is not the most practical which all depends on ones needs whether it be hunting, paper shoot, field target competition or plinking. Most of us enjoy all of the above and I greatly enjoy my .357.
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.357 can shoot the soft Predator at 500 fpe for 44 FPE, not something that is overly dangerous for backyard,
can shoot Roundballs, Domed pellets, Cast slugs, and AirBolts......all out the barrel all one after the other,
When hunting I have an Airbolt loaded but have 190gr bullets set up for fast follow up if needed.
one of these days I'll chrono what fps the REX shoots the Predators at the half power cocking level.
Manny, you are 100% correct in that the .357 is the most versatile air gun for the above reasons; but it is not the most practical which all depends on ones needs whether it be hunting, paper shoot, field target competition or plinking. Most of us enjoy all of the above and I greatly enjoy my .357.
Absolutely Bob,
If the question/questions where,
what caliber is the most practical ?, cheapest ?, safest ?, most powerful ?, longest ranging ?, what you use the most ?, what is best for you ?.......... and so on answers will be totally different.
Once you go int specific categories and or personal needs/wants there's gonna be all kinds of best,
Versatility is the action of covering the most of them not being the best at one thing.
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I have agreed that the .35 wins, even though I have no use for it - but let's not get too celebratory about it any potential "win" here . . . . ;)
These "debates" are an interesting way to pass time and learn stuff, but don't really amount to much. A similar question could be "which size combination wrench (one end open, one end closed) is the most versatile?" Do you vote for 3/4"? Maybe 7/16"? Of course there is metric - maybe 10mm? In the end, would anybody that uses tools for what they are good at have only one such wrench? Of course not - we buy what we need to cover our uses.
And before anyone says it, the most versatile combination wrench is either 1/2" or 13mm, since they can both do each other's tasks . . . . ;)
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So, out of curiosity since I've never done it before I went to Chrono my REX Mini-Carbine at the half power level.
At full power shoots the Arrows at 475 fps for 175 FPE
can't remember the numbers on the 190gr bullet but I think it was 145 FPE.
With the Predators I got
447
456
460
475
483
481
492
506
510
516
515
Perfectly acceptable numbers for yard shooting and small game hunting
gun was pretty quiet too considering it has a naked barrel, once I get my Neil Clauge LDC I'll test again.
If I was to use the .360 ballistic product roundball it would be as cheap as to use a quality .22 pellet :) :)
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Since safety was an other subject that was brought up,
safety is in the shooter regardless of caliber user.
Anyway, months ago I made this portable backstop, used to be pretty light now probably weights 70 # :) :) ...need to make a new one soon :)
I've shot anything from .17 to 200 FPE .50 cal into this backstop, al it happened is that it got significantly heavier :) :)
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That REX is a cool gun, but even if you max it out you can’t use it on big game in Texas and maybe some other places. I only know for sure Texas, requires like 230 fpe or so. Maybe it was 215, I can’t recall exactly just know it was over 200 fpe. Might be able to use it with the air bolts though, I am not sure how the law is written with regards to “arrows”.
I would use a 44 fpe .357 in the backyard if it was quiet enough, sure. Still need a fairly decent backstop but a box of rubber mulch or something I think you could get away with that.
But to shoot a trash panda, in the suburbs... only if I got a full trash can right behind him. Haha
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That REX is a cool gun, but even if you max it out you can’t use it on big game in Texas and maybe some other places. I only know for sure Texas, requires like 230 fpe or so. Maybe it was 215, I can’t recall exactly just know it was over 200 fpe. Might be able to use it with the air bolts though, I am not sure how the law is written with regards to “arrows”.
I would use a 44 fpe .357 in the backyard if it was quiet enough, sure. Still need a fairly decent backstop but a box of rubber mulch or something I think you could get away with that.
But to shoot a trash panda, in the suburbs... only if I got a full trash can right behind him. Haha
You shoot trash pandas in suburbs with .25 cal airguns anywhere between 40 to 60 FPE .....a .357 predator at 44 FPE will penetrate less then a .25 at 44 FPE
My backstop is made of denim and other cloth ( I'll go see if I can find the thread when I made it ) and I shoot 200 FPE .50 into it,.......people make way to much of big bore airguns blowing through things :) :) LOL
And this is the Mini-Carbine, my REX Carbine makes 225 FPE :)
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The theoretical versatility of the .30 and above calibers in airguns are vast. But how many shooters are actually plinking at sub 12 FPE? And then taking out sparrows, and then finally an elephant with an airbolt? Covering the vast range with one caliber? In theory yes, in a practical sense not so much. In a general sense I believe that the .22 is most versatile (price, variety, availability). At some point a powder burner does make more sense.
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The theoretical versatility of the .30 and above calibers in airguns are vast. But how many shooters are actually plinking at sub 12 FPE? And then taking out sparrows, and then finally an elephant with an airbolt? Covering the vast range with one caliber? In theory yes, in a practical sense not so much. In a general sense I believe that the .22 is most versatile (price, variety, availability). At some point a powder burner does make more sense.
Hahahaha, moving the goal posts :)
ok let's play that game.
So now is, ho yes .30 and .357 are more versatile, but who does really use them ? it's not practical !!!!!! LOL .....I do, as I've shown you I target practice in the yard, I take squirrel sized game and I don't have elephants but I hunt the biggest toughest game I have around and if I had bigger I would do to.
falling back to ..." Ho well at a certain point just bust out the firearms " as got nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
Also as much as I search, .......price, variety, availability doesn't show up in the definition of "Versatility" LOL
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The theoretical versatility of the .30 and above calibers in airguns are vast. But how many shooters are actually plinking at sub 12 FPE? And then taking out sparrows, and then finally an elephant with an airbolt? Covering the vast range with one caliber? In theory yes, in a practical sense not so much. In a general sense I believe that the .22 is most versatile (price, variety, availability). At some point a powder burner does make more sense.
Hahahaha, moving the goal posts :)
ok let's play that game.
So now is, ho yes .30 and .357 are more versatile, but who does really use them ? it's not practical !!!!!! LOL .....I do, as I've shown you I target practice in the yard, I take squirrel sized game and I don't have elephants but I hunt the biggest toughest game I have around and if I had bigger I would do to.
falling back to ..." Ho well at a certain point just bust out the firearms " as got nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
Also as much as I search, .......price, variety, availability doesn't show up in the definition of "Versatility" LOL
Yeah bit of a moving goal post there, price, variety have nothing to do with the original question.
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I'm pretty sure the buying public has voted... and it's the .22 caliber.
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I'm pretty sure the buying public has voted... and it's the .22 caliber.
Again, it's not what you shoot of prefer, it's not supposed to be a subjective answer but an objective one.
Also ;
By saying " at a certain point I just bust out the firearms " .....right there you are admitting that your .22 isn't the most versatile because you need help at the other end of the spectrum : LOL
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That REX is a cool gun, but even if you max it out you can’t use it on big game in Texas and maybe some other places. I only know for sure Texas, requires like 230 fpe or so. Maybe it was 215, I can’t recall exactly just know it was over 200 fpe. Might be able to use it with the air bolts though, I am not sure how the law is written with regards to “arrows”.
I would use a 44 fpe .357 in the backyard if it was quiet enough, sure. Still need a fairly decent backstop but a box of rubber mulch or something I think you could get away with that.
But to shoot a trash panda, in the suburbs... only if I got a full trash can right behind him. Haha
You shoot trash pandas in suburbs with .25 cal airguns anywhere between 40 to 60 FPE .....a .357 predator at 44 FPE will penetrate less then a .25 at 44 FPE
My backstop is made of denim and other cloth ( I'll go see if I can find the thread when I made it ) and I shoot 200 FPE .50 into it,.......people make way to much of big bore airguns blowing through things :) :) LOL
And this is the Mini-Carbine, my REX Carbine makes 225 FPE :)
Well it is because I have zero experience with big bores and very limited experience with PCP guns.
I have always compared them to pistols in my head. I sure wouldn’t shoot a 9mm pistol in my backyard, even though I have nothing but woods behind me. I live in a subdivision, and have neighbors very close by.
The Rex carbine is pretty close to a 9mm pistol. But the Rex pistol with adequate sound suppression would do the ticket.
That said, it sounds like you’d still need two air rifles to cover all your bases even in a .357 gun. Because the low powered gun is backyard friendly but you still want that 230 fpe hammer to really take advantage of the .357.
I have to agree that .357 Rex carbine is about the most versatile hunter in the airgun world. But it still doesn’t cover all my bases, being a backyard friendly plinker that will still kill small game.
I have a deer rifle that serves the purpose a big bore air rifle would do for me. To move up to a .357 big bore would be purely for the fun and satisfaction, for me. I don’t have a niche for one.
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That REX is a cool gun, but even if you max it out you can’t use it on big game in Texas and maybe some other places. I only know for sure Texas, requires like 230 fpe or so. Maybe it was 215, I can’t recall exactly just know it was over 200 fpe. Might be able to use it with the air bolts though, I am not sure how the law is written with regards to “arrows”.
I would use a 44 fpe .357 in the backyard if it was quiet enough, sure. Still need a fairly decent backstop but a box of rubber mulch or something I think you could get away with that.
But to shoot a trash panda, in the suburbs... only if I got a full trash can right behind him. Haha
You shoot trash pandas in suburbs with .25 cal airguns anywhere between 40 to 60 FPE .....a .357 predator at 44 FPE will penetrate less then a .25 at 44 FPE
My backstop is made of denim and other cloth ( I'll go see if I can find the thread when I made it ) and I shoot 200 FPE .50 into it,.......people make way to much of big bore airguns blowing through things :) :) LOL
And this is the Mini-Carbine, my REX Carbine makes 225 FPE :)
Well it is because I have zero experience with big bores and very limited experience with PCP guns.
I have always compared them to pistols in my head. I sure wouldn’t shoot a 9mm pistol in my backyard, even though I have nothing but woods behind me. I live in a subdivision, and have neighbors very close by.
The Rex carbine is pretty close to a 9mm pistol. But the Rex pistol with adequate sound suppression would do the ticket.
That said, it sounds like you’d still need two air rifles to cover all your bases even in a .357 gun. Because the low powered gun is backyard friendly but you still want that 230 fpe hammer to really take advantage of the .357.
I have to agree that .357 Rex carbine is about the most versatile hunter in the airgun world. But it still doesn’t cover all my bases, being a backyard friendly plinker that will still kill small game.
I have a deer rifle that serves the purpose a big bore air rifle would do for me. To move up to a .357 big bore would be purely for the fun and satisfaction, for me. I don’t have a niche for one.
No I don't need 2 guns, my Mini Carbine cocked at the low power shoots the Predator at 40 FPE, perfect for backyard target/Plinking ( done every day by a myriad of airgunners ) also perfect for small game.
Then I cock the same gun at the full power level and I can shoot the AirBolt at 475 fps which will kill every animal on the planet,....only one gun.
I would and never shot my Glock 19 in my yard, but shoot the .357 airguns any time I feel like :)
And,......your last point brings it home, the fact that I don't have to bust out my Henry to hunt big game shows the versatility of the .357 airgun.
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If the caliber is above .30, most of them can shoot arrows and pellet..
I'm not even touching the cast slugs..
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The theoretical versatility of the .30 and above calibers in airguns are vast. But how many shooters are actually plinking at sub 12 FPE? And then taking out sparrows, and then finally an elephant with an airbolt? Covering the vast range with one caliber? In theory yes, in a practical sense not so much. In a general sense I believe that the .22 is most versatile (price, variety, availability). At some point a powder burner does make more sense.
In real life I actually do have a .30 that I hunt a wide range of different sized game with. My Texan SS .308 is a great squirrel gun with the power wheel turned down to the first line, set for a 2200psi fill, and loaded with any commercial pellet or the NOE light .30 cast pellets. I can then take the same gun, turn it up to just below the top power line, and fill it to 3000psi, and get 5 shots with a cast 97 grain NOE bullet or a 99 grain NSA bullet averaging 935fps and go kill a whitetail with it on a lung shot at 100 yards.
It may not run from sparrow to elephant but it definitely runs from squirrel to deer just by changing out the projectiles and adjusting the power wheel and fill pressure.
The only versatility I care about is hunting versatility. One caliber and gun that can hunt every legal game animal in my state.
Now if I wanted to ponder not just one caliber but one projectile and tune, I would agree that a .357 shooting pellets would probably be it. I’ve already demonstrated on video how clean a .357 pellet can lung kill a deer with no expansion. It should do fine head shooting squirrel.
I currently don’t own a .357. I think a .45 shooting round ball could accomplish the same. My .45 Texan SS shoots cast round ball excellently. Accurate enough to head shoot squirrel at 50 yards. I would just hate to tear up the trees with the round ball after blowing the squirrels’ head up.
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The theoretical versatility of the .30 and above calibers in airguns are vast. But how many shooters are actually plinking at sub 12 FPE? And then taking out sparrows, and then finally an elephant with an airbolt? Covering the vast range with one caliber? In theory yes, in a practical sense not so much. In a general sense I believe that the .22 is most versatile (price, variety, availability). At some point a powder burner does make more sense.
Hahahaha, moving the goal posts :)
ok let's play that game.
So now is, ho yes .30 and .357 are more versatile, but who does really use them ? it's not practical !!!!!! LOL .....I do, as I've shown you I target practice in the yard, I take squirrel sized game and I don't have elephants but I hunt the biggest toughest game I have around and if I had bigger I would do to.
falling back to ..." Ho well at a certain point just bust out the firearms " as got nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
Also as much as I search, .......price, variety, availability doesn't show up in the definition of "Versatility" LOL
Yeah bit of a moving goal post there, price, variety have nothing to do with the original question.
It’s not moving the goal post. How can a PCP caliber be versatile if it’s too expensive to shoot regularly? Hundreds of rounds per week or more? Or not available locally? Offers less choices in projectiles?
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The theoretical versatility of the .30 and above calibers in airguns are vast. But how many shooters are actually plinking at sub 12 FPE? And then taking out sparrows, and then finally an elephant with an airbolt? Covering the vast range with one caliber? In theory yes, in a practical sense not so much. In a general sense I believe that the .22 is most versatile (price, variety, availability). At some point a powder burner does make more sense.
Hahahaha, moving the goal posts :)
ok let's play that game.
So now is, ho yes .30 and .357 are more versatile, but who does really use them ? it's not practical !!!!!! LOL .....I do, as I've shown you I target practice in the yard, I take squirrel sized game and I don't have elephants but I hunt the biggest toughest game I have around and if I had bigger I would do to.
falling back to ..." Ho well at a certain point just bust out the firearms " as got nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
Also as much as I search, .......price, variety, availability doesn't show up in the definition of "Versatility" LOL
Yeah bit of a moving goal post there, price, variety have nothing to do with the original question.
It’s not moving the goal post. How can a PCP caliber be versatile if it’s too expensive to shoot regularly? Hundreds of rounds per week or more? Or not available locally? Offers less choices in projectiles?
I guess my friend you just have cotton in your ears and ham on your eyes :) LOL
But carry on, it's actually kinda funny,...LOL
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The theoretical versatility of the .30 and above calibers in airguns are vast. But how many shooters are actually plinking at sub 12 FPE? And then taking out sparrows, and then finally an elephant with an airbolt? Covering the vast range with one caliber? In theory yes, in a practical sense not so much. In a general sense I believe that the .22 is most versatile (price, variety, availability). At some point a powder burner does make more sense.
In real life I actually do have a .30 that I hunt a wide range of different sized game with. My Texan SS .308 is a great squirrel gun with the power wheel turned down to the first line, set for a 2200psi fill, and loaded with any commercial pellet or the NOE light .30 cast pellets. I can then take the same gun, turn it up to just below the top power line, and fill it to 3000psi, and get 5 shots with a cast 97 grain NOE bullet or a 99 grain NSA bullet averaging 935fps and go kill a whitetail with it on a lung shot at 100 yards.
It may not run from sparrow to elephant but it definitely runs from squirrel to deer just by changing out the projectiles and adjusting the power wheel and fill pressure.
The only versatility I care about is hunting versatility. One caliber and gun that can hunt every legal game animal in my state.
Now if I wanted to ponder not just one caliber but one projectile and tune, I would agree that a .357 shooting pellets would probably be it. I’ve already demonstrated on video how clean a .357 pellet can lung kill a deer with no expansion. It should do fine head shooting squirrel.
I currently don’t own a .357. I think a .45 shooting round ball could accomplish the same. My .45 Texan SS shoots cast round ball excellently. Accurate enough to head shoot squirrel at 50 yards. I would just hate to tear up the trees with the round ball after blowing the squirrels’ head up.
Precisely Travis,
those that try to argue against them is just because they never used them so they claim they are just a theoretical thing.
But plenty of us out there in the field can show the excellent versatility not theoretical but practical.
when experience is limited maybe is better to listen and learn then keep talking ;)
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The theoretical versatility of the .30 and above calibers in airguns are vast. But how many shooters are actually plinking at sub 12 FPE? And then taking out sparrows, and then finally an elephant with an airbolt? Covering the vast range with one caliber? In theory yes, in a practical sense not so much. In a general sense I believe that the .22 is most versatile (price, variety, availability). At some point a powder burner does make more sense.
Hahahaha, moving the goal posts :)
ok let's play that game.
So now is, ho yes .30 and .357 are more versatile, but who does really use them ? it's not practical !!!!!! LOL .....I do, as I've shown you I target practice in the yard, I take squirrel sized game and I don't have elephants but I hunt the biggest toughest game I have around and if I had bigger I would do to.
falling back to ..." Ho well at a certain point just bust out the firearms " as got nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
Also as much as I search, .......price, variety, availability doesn't show up in the definition of "Versatility" LOL
Yeah bit of a moving goal post there, price, variety have nothing to do with the original question.
It’s not moving the goal post. How can a PCP caliber be versatile if it’s too expensive to shoot regularly? Hundreds of rounds per week or more? Or not available locally? Offers less choices in projectiles?
I guess my friend you just have cotton in your ears and ham on your eyes :) LOL
But carry on, it's actually kinda funny,...LOL
The only one with cotton in the ears and ham on the eyes is the one getting nasty about it.
It’s just a discussion and if you get butthurt or wanna insult someone for a different opinion maybe you need to grow up a little.
Thread titled “what caliber DO YOU THINK is most versatile.”
We all know “YOU THINK” the .357 is the most versatile. No need to bully anyone with a different opinion.
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Too big for your britches these days manny. I get it. You kill a lot of pigs. Good for you.
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The theoretical versatility of the .30 and above calibers in airguns are vast. But how many shooters are actually plinking at sub 12 FPE? And then taking out sparrows, and then finally an elephant with an airbolt? Covering the vast range with one caliber? In theory yes, in a practical sense not so much. In a general sense I believe that the .22 is most versatile (price, variety, availability). At some point a powder burner does make more sense.
Hahahaha, moving the goal posts :)
ok let's play that game.
So now is, ho yes .30 and .357 are more versatile, but who does really use them ? it's not practical !!!!!! LOL .....I do, as I've shown you I target practice in the yard, I take squirrel sized game and I don't have elephants but I hunt the biggest toughest game I have around and if I had bigger I would do to.
falling back to ..." Ho well at a certain point just bust out the firearms " as got nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
Also as much as I search, .......price, variety, availability doesn't show up in the definition of "Versatility" LOL
Yeah bit of a moving goal post there, price, variety have nothing to do with the original question.
It’s not moving the goal post. How can a PCP caliber be versatile if it’s too expensive to shoot regularly? Hundreds of rounds per week or more? Or not available locally? Offers less choices in projectiles?
I guess my friend you just have cotton in your ears and ham on your eyes :) LOL
But carry on, it's actually kinda funny,...LOL
The only one with cotton in the ears and ham on the eyes is the one getting nasty about it.
It’s just a discussion and if you get butthurt or wanna insult someone for a different opinion maybe you need to grow up a little.
Thread titled “what caliber DO YOU THINK is most versatile.”
We all know “YOU THINK” the .357 is the most versatile. No need to bully anyone with a different opinion.
Do you even realize that he's only argument for caliber versatility is cost of ammo :) LOL
So yeah it's getting kinda funny,..and if you think that's bullying, my friend you got thin skin :) :) :)
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I'm actually here with an open mind, I started with .30, then someone made an argument for .25 and I saw the value of it and swang that way,
then someone made and compelling argument for .357 and it sounded good and I moved that way,...I even when out and tested certain aspects of the caliber I never did before
even when someone mentioned high power .22 I gave it a though
so I just didn't come here and stud my grounds, I moved, listened and evolved
that's what you supposed to do in this kinda threads ;)
don't have cotton in my ears or ham on my eye because I like to learn ;)
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Backspin will make the trajectory flat over some useful range, but it won't make any given shot accurate. Nor the next one.
How would one impart backspin to a lead ball? By means of a sharp "speedbump" at the muzzle perhaps. The end of the barrel would need to be raised or bent up slightly, to offset the downwards reaction from running into the speedbump. The round ball will suffer considerable damage from running into the speedbump.
The problem here is that a plastic sphere is very strong for the change in momentum induces force required to induce backspin. Lead is heavy and soft, so the change in momentum to impart that spin will take so much force that the lead is deformed significantly.
Perhaps a curved smoothbore tube, that is formed as part of a down-pointing spiral could be used. It would roll a lead sphere more gently and use friction against the upper wall to roll the ball. You might have better results with a steel ball....
That is very insightful. You make a good point about the higher momentum (and softness) of the lead roundball in comparison to the airsoft BB which has lower momentum.
So there needs to be a way of doing this that is a lot more gentle than an abrupt speed bump (abrupt speed bump is basically what the default airsoft method is).
In Paintball I have seen two different types of "gentle" backspin adders used together on one gun. Google "MonsterSpin Paintball" and you will see a Youtuber (TrailsofDoom) who combines the Flatline curved barrel with the Apex 2 tip (which is basically an "R-hop" at the end of the barrel rather than at the beginning of the barrel). (NOTE: He mentions it is not necessary to use the Apex 2 tip with the curved flatline barrel (to get the extended range effect) but he likes to do it I believe for the purposes of doing trick shots).
http://www.020mag.com/en/news/1237/what-is-a-r-hop- (http://www.020mag.com/en/news/1237/what-is-a-r-hop-)
An R-hop still uses a protruding rubber bump to apply rotation onto the BB with friction, however it’s applied in a much gentler way over a longer period of time. R-hop is less like a speed bump and more like a gentle hill, both impart the same amount of backspin but an R-hop does it in a much gentler fashion.
(http://www.020mag.com/en/files/images/2019/06/img_1237_img_11746_rhopinfo.png)
(http://www.020mag.com/en/files/images/2019/06/img_1237_img_11746_rhopstdhop.jpg)
Perhaps for lead ball (or even steel ball) a person could use up to three "gentle" backspin adders (e.g. R-hop at the beginning of the barrel and R-hop end of barrel + curved barrel) as a means of reducing the stress of the heavy round ball?
P.S. As far as accuracy goes smoothbore with backspin doesn't look too bad:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv_TVRFFi_E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv_TVRFFi_E)
(I noticed he was sometimes changing his point of aim despite previously making a hit with his cross hair directly lined up. Wind compensation?)
EDIT: One criticism I have read about using backspin in paintball is that while it does add range it doesn't help the paintball break after it has slowed down while traveling over that extended range.
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why did i subscribed to this thread?
now someones talking about lead balls and back spin while Manny is thin skinning people.
man, one of these days...ill give gta a rest
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The theoretical versatility of the .30 and above calibers in airguns are vast. But how many shooters are actually plinking at sub 12 FPE? And then taking out sparrows, and then finally an elephant with an airbolt? Covering the vast range with one caliber? In theory yes, in a practical sense not so much. In a general sense I believe that the .22 is most versatile (price, variety, availability). At some point a powder burner does make more sense.
Hahahaha, moving the goal posts :)
ok let's play that game.
So now is, ho yes .30 and .357 are more versatile, but who does really use them ? it's not practical !!!!!! LOL .....I do, as I've shown you I target practice in the yard, I take squirrel sized game and I don't have elephants but I hunt the biggest toughest game I have around and if I had bigger I would do to.
falling back to ..." Ho well at a certain point just bust out the firearms " as got nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
Also as much as I search, .......price, variety, availability doesn't show up in the definition of "Versatility" LOL
Yeah bit of a moving goal post there, price, variety have nothing to do with the original question.
It’s not moving the goal post. How can a PCP caliber be versatile if it’s too expensive to shoot regularly? Hundreds of rounds per week or more? Or not available locally? Offers less choices in projectiles?
I guess my friend you just have cotton in your ears and ham on your eyes :) LOL
But carry on, it's actually kinda funny,...LOL
The only one with cotton in the ears and ham on the eyes is the one getting nasty about it.
It’s just a discussion and if you get butthurt or wanna insult someone for a different opinion maybe you need to grow up a little.
Thread titled “what caliber DO YOU THINK is most versatile.”
We all know “YOU THINK” the .357 is the most versatile. No need to bully anyone with a different opinion.
Do you even realize that he's only argument for caliber versatility is cost of ammo :) LOL
So yeah it's getting kinda funny,..and if you think that's bullying, my friend you got thin skin :) :) :)
Yes, Manny my ONLY point has been cost of ammo? Really? Then you are not reading. From sparrows to small hogs with a .22 with abundantly available ammo choices at good prices. Not knocking the thirty... for a high percentage of backyard shooters in small lots. It’s impractical to lob .30s in close proximity to neighbors, houses, etc. Are you killing pigs everyday? No. Same here I hunt and pests, but not everyday. I do shoot almost everyday. I couldn’t afford to shoot a .30 everyday... that makes it less versatile to me in a practical sense.
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What caliber do you think is the most versatile? (You can specify twist rate also if you want to)
P.S. I'm still thinking about it......IMO being able to limit range and ricochet potential is an important consideration.
LMBO......
It always amazes me how far off topic folks take these threads just for the sake of argument.
Once again, read the original post. Heck I even made it simple with blue highlight. And this is, at least, the second time it was said. There is no absolute right or wrong general answer unless each of the responders are using the exact same guns for the exact same purposes. Even then it comes down to personal preferences. Or for that matter, individual gun preferences. Often times two of the exact same guns prefer different pellets. I certainly wouldn't think a pellet that my particular gun doesn't shoot well as 'versatile'.
I have guns in only 4 calibers, .177, .20, .22, and .25. How on Earth could I possible suggest any other caliber than one of these 4 calibers be more versatile for me?
LOL.... I don't need to defend my choice.
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why did i subscribed to this thread?
now someones talking about lead balls and back spin while Manny is thin skinning people.
man, one of these days...ill give gta a rest
That's about the size of the GTA these days.
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I typically let insults slide... and it’s all good within the context of the thread... it is infotainment.
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Obviously, the only way backspin can be applied is if the ball fits loose enough in the bore that it isn't touching, or the friction would stop the rotation almost as soon as it had begun....
bob
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Obviously, the only way backspin can be applied is if the ball fits loose enough in the bore that it isn't touching, or the friction would stop the rotation almost as soon as it had begun....
bob
Yep, that is true and why a 6mm BB is actually 5.95mm +/- .01mm (examples here ---> https://www.pyramydair.com/product/we-precision-series-6mm-airsoft-bbs-0-36g-black-2-000-rds?p=1078 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/we-precision-series-6mm-airsoft-bbs-0-36g-black-2-000-rds?p=1078) , https://www.airsoftmegastore.com/29147-g-and-g-0-25g-psbp-perfect-0-25mm-airsoft-bbs-3000rd-bag-gng-g-07-125 (https://www.airsoftmegastore.com/29147-g-and-g-0-25g-psbp-perfect-0-25mm-airsoft-bbs-3000rd-bag-gng-g-07-125) ) and the air soft smoothbore diameter is classically 6.08mm.
P.S. There is also something called "tightbore" airsoft barrel which has a smoothbore diameter of either 6.01mm or 6.03mm. (The rifled 6mm airsoft barrel I linked earlier is labeled 6.03mm (which is .237") but this is very likely the lands diameter as the purpose of the rifled barrels is not to engrave the BB)
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Obviously, the only way backspin can be applied is if the ball fits loose enough in the bore that it isn't touching, or the friction would stop the rotation almost as soon as it had begun....
bob
Yep, that is true and why a 6mm BB is actually 5.95mm +/- .01mm (examples here ---> https://www.pyramydair.com/product/we-precision-series-6mm-airsoft-bbs-0-36g-black-2-000-rds?p=1078 (https://www.pyramydair.com/product/we-precision-series-6mm-airsoft-bbs-0-36g-black-2-000-rds?p=1078) , https://www.airsoftmegastore.com/29147-g-and-g-0-25g-psbp-perfect-0-25mm-airsoft-bbs-3000rd-bag-gng-g-07-125 (https://www.airsoftmegastore.com/29147-g-and-g-0-25g-psbp-perfect-0-25mm-airsoft-bbs-3000rd-bag-gng-g-07-125) ) and the air soft smoothbore diameter is classically 6.08mm.
P.S. There is also something called "tightbore" airsoft barrel which has a smoothbore diameter of either 6.01mm or 6.03mm. (The rifled 6mm airsoft barrel I linked earlier is labeled 6.03mm (which is .237") but this is very likely the lands diameter as the purpose of the rifled barrels is not to engrave the BB)
The Apex 2 Paintball tip (mentioned in reply #196---> https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=175694.msg155988621#msg155988621 (https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=175694.msg155988621#msg155988621)) doesn't apply backspin until the ball has left the barrel.....so the ball could be sized to the barrel in that case.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOYBffhTiTg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOYBffhTiTg)
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Backspin will make the trajectory flat over some useful range, but it won't make any given shot accurate. Nor the next one.
How would one impart backspin to a lead ball? By means of a sharp "speedbump" at the muzzle perhaps. The end of the barrel would need to be raised or bent up slightly, to offset the downwards reaction from running into the speedbump. The round ball will suffer considerable damage from running into the speedbump.
The problem here is that a plastic sphere is very strong for the change in momentum induces force required to induce backspin. Lead is heavy and soft, so the change in momentum to impart that spin will take so much force that the lead is deformed significantly.
Perhaps a curved smoothbore tube, that is formed as part of a down-pointing spiral could be used. It would roll a lead sphere more gently and use friction against the upper wall to roll the ball. You might have better results with a steel ball....
Here is someone that used magnets on the top of his .177 BB shooter as a means to not only flatten trajectory but also increase accuracy:
https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/05/can-a-common-bb-gun-be-accurate/#comment-346629 (https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/05/can-a-common-bb-gun-be-accurate/#comment-346629)
Bought a Daisy Grizzly just for plinking but was astounded at the lack of accuracy. Watching the BBs fly was like watching Phil Niekro pitch. I was looking at a 1 foot pattern at 50′. I measured the bore: .230 so I started to think about sleeves and there is off the shelf precision tubing that would bring that down to .187 with an OD of .25… Then I started thinking about a magnetic ring to maybe center the shot?…It then occurred to me that pulling the shot to the top of the barrel might solve the problem. If I could get the BBs to roll out the top side of the barrel it would straighten out the shot and put a back spin on the BB thereby leveling out the arc as well (similar to a softballers rise pitch) I had a bunch of fairly powerful button magnets (1/8″ dia x 1/16″) which I lined up on the top of the barrel 3/8 of an inch center to center. Now It’s shooting less than 1″patterns at 50′ at a much flatter trajectory. Those magnets are just taped there now but I’l be breaking out the epoxy soon.
Maybe this could be a relatively cheap and reversible mod for a Seneca Wingshot or Double shot?
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Russ,
I think for an external magnet to "see" a steel BB inside the barrel to apply the rotational friction, the barrel needs to be non-magnetic, and thin walled. So, steel is out; unless you somehow magnetize only the upper "strip" of the barrel.
My concern is the amount of blowby you will get from a ball that is so loose that it makes contact only with the "friction" side of the barrel. Even more importantly; loose fitting projectiles are anathema to "accuracy". So, perhaps a short tight section at the muzzle would be required (that does not brake out all the rotation you battled to induce). While clever and all, how much velocity can one get from such a system, using ball of sufficient weight to do more than puncture paper?
This thread started with you asking for the most versatile caliber. While some might lament the scope drifting away from that, tolerating such drift is how new ideas are spawned. For instance; what if you used the principle that applying a vacuum to a barrel before shooting, enables much higher velocities at lower driving pressures? How do you like 2500 FPS delivered by 80 PSI input pressure? (third video below)
Yes, this is more of a lab arrangement, than something to keep the wolves at bay. But since this thread has taken a turn, so to speak; perhaps more turns can't hurt:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ydJXOTf1-4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ydJXOTf1-4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DKWSXstXuc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DKWSXstXuc)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z52yCL3tSGQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z52yCL3tSGQ)
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=supersonic+ping+pong+ball+ (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=supersonic+ping+pong+ball+)
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The theoretical versatility of the .30 and above calibers in airguns are vast. But how many shooters are actually plinking at sub 12 FPE? And then taking out sparrows, and then finally an elephant with an airbolt? Covering the vast range with one caliber? In theory yes, in a practical sense not so much. In a general sense I believe that the .22 is most versatile (price, variety, availability). At some point a powder burner does make more sense.
Hahahaha, moving the goal posts :)
ok let's play that game.
So now is, ho yes .30 and .357 are more versatile, but who does really use them ? it's not practical !!!!!! LOL .....I do, as I've shown you I target practice in the yard, I take squirrel sized game and I don't have elephants but I hunt the biggest toughest game I have around and if I had bigger I would do to.
falling back to ..." Ho well at a certain point just bust out the firearms " as got nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
Also as much as I search, .......price, variety, availability doesn't show up in the definition of "Versatility" LOL
Yeah bit of a moving goal post there, price, variety have nothing to do with the original question.
It’s not moving the goal post. How can a PCP caliber be versatile if it’s too expensive to shoot regularly? Hundreds of rounds per week or more? Or not available locally? Offers less choices in projectiles?
I guess my friend you just have cotton in your ears and ham on your eyes :) LOL
But carry on, it's actually kinda funny,...LOL
The only one with cotton in the ears and ham on the eyes is the one getting nasty about it.
It’s just a discussion and if you get butthurt or wanna insult someone for a different opinion maybe you need to grow up a little.
Thread titled “what caliber DO YOU THINK is most versatile.”
We all know “YOU THINK” the .357 is the most versatile. No need to bully anyone with a different opinion.
Do you even realize that he's only argument for caliber versatility is cost of ammo :) LOL
So yeah it's getting kinda funny,..and if you think that's bullying, my friend you got thin skin :) :) :)
Yes, Manny my ONLY point has been cost of ammo? Really? Then you are not reading. From sparrows to small hogs with a .22 with abundantly available ammo choices at good prices. Not knocking the thirty... for a high percentage of backyard shooters in small lots. It’s impractical to lob .30s in close proximity to neighbors, houses, etc. Are you killing pigs everyday? No. Same here I hunt and pests, but not everyday. I do shoot almost everyday. I couldn’t afford to shoot a .30 everyday... that makes it less versatile to me in a practical sense.
So Luis, your take on versatility means it must be economical to shoot, so you are exerting your own bias on the definition of versatility I mention earlier in this thread. That's perfectly in line with the OP's post: "which caliber to you think..."
Manny takes a wider stance without exerting bias- simply postulating his own view as per versatility meaning exactly what the definition means: covering the most bases for a shooting caliber.
My own take on this subject is that the .25 should be more versatile except the .25 bolts never materialized, and given the results of recent long range competitions, .25 has given way to .30. Anybody arguing that .30 is too large misses the point that the .30 pellets are superb short range pesting rounds and will not over-penetrate. This in fact i one reason I prefer larger caliber with slower velocity over smaller caliber with higher velocity for pesting. It also refutes my stance that .25 wadcutters need re-releasing outside of molds/cast. Larger projectiles may cost more, but when they move slower they have much less chance of over-penetration, a critical factor for people who manage pests in suburban area such as myself.
Since this is an entirely subjective conversation given the verbiage "what caliber do you..." versus "what is the most versatile", claims can be made about any caliber strictly thanks to power level adjustments.
But, strictly from the non-biased "most versatile" as per the definition, the caliber options that take pellets, bullets, slugs, and bolts are the most versatile simply because they can do things the smaller bores cannot with a wider range IE: more diverse selection of projectiles. More options = more versatility
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@antisquirrel, my take on versatility is that I can shoot any particular caliber enough to stay proficient with it. That said, yes I couldn’t afford to shoot thousands of .30 caliber pellets per year. So the economics of shooting does factor in, but is not the prevailing factor. Ammo choice and local availability are other factors. So the .30 should an airgunners’ first choice because it oh so versatile?
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Luis,
You answered your own question - each individual airgunner should buy whatever fits their needs the best. Versatility is not likely to be much of a factor in that, unless the airgunner in question has lots of needs and has to fill them with only one air gun.
If an airgunner only wants to shoot 10M pistol, that pretty well defines what they should buy. But would any of us here think that person bought the most versatile gun (as opposed to just the caliber)? Answer: probably not. Or that they made a mistake because they bought what they did? Answer: probably not.
I for one came in thinking the most versatile caliber was the .22, but now agree it is probably the .35 - but that said I will probably never buy a .35 as it is not the "best" at any of the needs that I have, and I have no needs for any of the things that it is "best" at (and like you affordability of purchased ammo could be a factor for me). Could I tune one to do some of what I need it to do - sure. After all, it is a very versatile caliber ( ;) ). But why would I buy it when it is not the best fit for me.
Best fit and most versatile are not synonymous . . .
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@antisquirrel, my take on versatility is that I can shoot any particular caliber enough to stay proficient with it. That said, yes I couldn’t afford to shoot thousands of .30 caliber pellets per year. So the economics of shooting does factor in, but is not the prevailing factor. Ammo choice and local availability are other factors. So the .30 should an airgunners’ first choice because it oh so versatile?
No.
Buy what fits your needs. This is something I stress assertively every single time I see any thread on any forums about "which gun and which caliber should I buy?". Literally every single thread with this topic, this is the first thing I spew from my mouth (from my fingertips?). BUY THE TOOL THAT FITS YOUR NEEDS. Not "buy what everybody else thinks you need"
Alan's post sums it up perfectly.
further; I can run hot-shooting .22 slugs out of my Leshiy and I guarantee it will drop any medium size game. I can tune down my Leshiy in .22 so it floats wadcutters with superb accuracy at 20 yards.
However, .22 is not the most versatile because bolts are not available. Bolts would allow me to take any game on this continent (were it legal). Bolts/arrows offer the ability to harvest much large game, yet can be used with pellets at muchn lower tunes. Sure, you can do it with .22 except you can't cuz no arrows in .22. IE: not as versatile. As soon as you say "for my needs" you put your own requirement on the caliber choice, whereas if you leave your personal needs out, it becomes clear that the larger bores can be tuned up or down, just like smaller bores, but the larger bores also offer 1 extra type of projectile, hence increasing versatility as per the commonly-accepted definition of versatility: the ability to be useful in more circumstances.
I'm not knocking the sheer versatility of the .22 caliber, but- based on the definition of versatility, the larger bores are clearly more versatile.
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@antisquirrel, my take on versatility is that I can shoot any particular caliber enough to stay proficient with it. That said, yes I couldn’t afford to shoot thousands of .30 caliber pellets per year. So the economics of shooting does factor in, but is not the prevailing factor. Ammo choice and local availability are other factors. So the .30 should an airgunners’ first choice because it oh so versatile?
No.
Buy what fits your needs. This is something I stress assertively every single time I see any thread on any forums about "which gun and which caliber should I buy?". Literally every single thread with this topic, this is the first thing I spew from my mouth (from my fingertips?). BUY THE TOOL THAT FITS YOUR NEEDS. Not "buy what everybody else thinks you need"
Alan's post sums it up perfectly.
further; I can run hot-shooting .22 slugs out of my Leshiy and I guarantee it will drop any medium size game. I can tune down my Leshiy in .22 so it floats wadcutters with superb accuracy at 20 yards.
However, .22 is not the most versatile because bolts are not available. Bolts would allow me to take any game on this continent (were it legal). Bolts/arrows offer the ability to harvest much large game, yet can be used with pellets at muchn lower tunes. Sure, you can do it with .22 except you can't cuz no arrows in .22. IE: not as versatile. As soon as you say "for my needs" you put your own requirement on the caliber choice, whereas if you leave your personal needs out, it becomes clear that the larger bores can be tuned up or down, just like smaller bores, but the larger bores also offer 1 extra type of projectile, hence increasing versatility as per the commonly-accepted definition of versatility: the ability to be useful in more circumstances.
I'm not knocking the sheer versatility of the .22 caliber, but- based on the definition of versatility, the larger bores are clearly more versatile.
So if you had to settle for one gun to fit all your needs, it would be a big bore?
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@antisquirrel, my take on versatility is that I can shoot any particular caliber enough to stay proficient with it. That said, yes I couldn’t afford to shoot thousands of .30 caliber pellets per year. So the economics of shooting does factor in, but is not the prevailing factor. Ammo choice and local availability are other factors. So the .30 should an airgunners’ first choice because it oh so versatile?
By your own metrics the most versatile is the .17 cal then,.....why you been arguing for the .22 this all time ? :) :) LOL
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I think .22 definitely falls in line with the cost and availability of ammo.
I still see the versatility of the .357 though. It is undeniable.
But if I personally gave up all my Airguns for one .357, it would hardly see the light of day. I have no use for it. So how versatile would it be in my home?
I would bet, anyone that picks .22 over the .357 probably looks at it the same way I do. Personally I still am kind of unsure.
The bolts are a game changer for sure. If we could get a .30 bolt you could hunt deer with a Hatsan 135 carnivore.
Manny how much FPE does a typical long bow put down? Ballpark of 30 or so isn’t it?
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I have never looked at FPE in bows, but my Bows shoot average 160 fps with a 600gr arrow -/+ in that ball park and will put down any Game in North america,...any.
Yes this debate isn't what you are more likely to buy or need,
it's an objective subject outside of personal subjectivity.
By the way, my favorite caliber over all is .25 and I think it's the one I killed the most hogs with.
......just bough an other .25 and should have it in not to long :)
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Well if it does not suit your needs how can you say it is versatile?
Versatility is purely personal and subjective, and the main reason this discussion has gone this far.
.357 might be most versatile for one man and more versatile for hunting overall. But for one who has zero use for it, it has zero versatility. If you have no use for something, it is exactly the opposite of versatile!
If versatility means it has multiple uses, and you can’t use it for much if anything... just saying.
If we could get those .25 air bolts I think it would cost PA too much in gun sales. I bet that is why they never came out in production.
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Well if it does not suit your needs how can you say it is versatile?
Versatility is purely personal and subjective, and the main reason this discussion has gone this far.
.357 might be most versatile for one man and more versatile for hunting overall. But for one who has zero use for it, it has zero versatility. If you have no use for something, it is exactly the opposite of versatile!
If versatility means it has multiple uses, and you can’t use it for much if anything... just saying.
If we could get those .25 air bolts I think it would cost PA too much in gun sales. I bet that is why they never came out in production.
HOLY SHIZNIT !!! I actually agree with Bryan? lol ;)
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The Idea is to figure out which one is the most versatile caliber going by the criteria of the term versatile,.....if you start plugging in personal needs/wants/ preferences,
then someone can come out and say the most versatile is the .50 and he would have the same weight arguing that then someone arguing for the .17
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@antisquirrel, my take on versatility is that I can shoot any particular caliber enough to stay proficient with it. That said, yes I couldn’t afford to shoot thousands of .30 caliber pellets per year. So the economics of shooting does factor in, but is not the prevailing factor. Ammo choice and local availability are other factors. So the .30 should an airgunners’ first choice because it oh so versatile?
No.
Buy what fits your needs. This is something I stress assertively every single time I see any thread on any forums about "which gun and which caliber should I buy?". Literally every single thread with this topic, this is the first thing I spew from my mouth (from my fingertips?). BUY THE TOOL THAT FITS YOUR NEEDS. Not "buy what everybody else thinks you need"
Alan's post sums it up perfectly.
further; I can run hot-shooting .22 slugs out of my Leshiy and I guarantee it will drop any medium size game. I can tune down my Leshiy in .22 so it floats wadcutters with superb accuracy at 20 yards.
However, .22 is not the most versatile because bolts are not available. Bolts would allow me to take any game on this continent (were it legal). Bolts/arrows offer the ability to harvest much large game, yet can be used with pellets at muchn lower tunes. Sure, you can do it with .22 except you can't cuz no arrows in .22. IE: not as versatile. As soon as you say "for my needs" you put your own requirement on the caliber choice, whereas if you leave your personal needs out, it becomes clear that the larger bores can be tuned up or down, just like smaller bores, but the larger bores also offer 1 extra type of projectile, hence increasing versatility as per the commonly-accepted definition of versatility: the ability to be useful in more circumstances.
I'm not knocking the sheer versatility of the .22 caliber, but- based on the definition of versatility, the larger bores are clearly more versatile.
So if you had to settle for one gun to fit all your needs, it would be a big bore?
One gun? Very good question. The question is, what are my needs versus what were my needs when I made the first PCP purchase. My needs have changed over the last 4 years, from strictly bird and squirrel management to now having the ability to go anywhere and harvest as desired whatever I need. I typically go for the most versatile tool, which means caliber versatility is overshadowed by the versatility of the platform. If I liked the ergonomics of bottle guns, I would more than likely have sprung for an Impact since it is arguably one of the most versatile platforms. However, the Gamo big-bore (Winchester .35 and .45) are quite appealing, quite tunable, and quite affordable. I intend to purchase the TS-35 Winchester (along with a Leshiy 2) at some point next year, so...
So the short answer RE: would I have choosen a big-bore: if my funds allowed for it when I got back into airguns, yes. In fact, I would have sought out something in .35 that is easily adjusted way down for paper and squirrel or way up for making holes in Bambi. Such a gun now exists (though it did not back then): the EdGun Leshiy, which I own. However, the .30 and .35 barrels must be ordered from overseas. I was tempted to order the Bulldog in .357 but my budget back then precluded such a purchase. Now I have a Leshiy with the ability to tune ad infinitum including barrel-swapping. So instead of opting for just the most versatile barrel, I decided upon the most versatile single-shot carbine.
If the Sumatra was available in .35, came shrouded, and still had the power wheel, I have no doubt in my mind I'd own one and probably wouldn't look any further. Since it does not, I won't. And yet the Leshiy does. It is not capable of the sheer power, but it will manage just fine and can still be tuned way down. The gentleman who operates the EDGunLeshiy channel on YouTube regularly used a 9mm (.35) barrel on his Leshiy for pesting, from chipmunks all the way up to raccoon and larger. His channel did influence my decision-making paradigm, since I too ama firm believer in "larger and slower" versus "smaller and faster" when it comes to projectiles, and the sheer capability of the Leshiy platform in all calibers is more appealing than simply choosing one caliber for versatility. But this again is my own personal bias toward choosing platform versatility over caliber versatility. If a Leshiy can handle every caliber from .177 through .35, that means it has all the benefits of versatility for each caliber.
Now- I have ordered a .25 barrel for my Leshiy as it stands, since, like Manny, it suits my current needs, keeping in mind I'm not going deer hunting with an airgun. If I was, I'd own a Benjamin Bulldog or the TS-35.
Versatility is not the same as meeting my needs. Versatility means the most useful for all needs, not just my own. If you need to get to the store, a pick-up truck is far more versatile depending what you're buying. Cement? Lumber? Groceries? But if all you're hauling is a few 12s of beer or some steaks, a Smart Car will certainly meet your needs and do so far more economically (meaning with much better gas mileage). But the pick-up is still more versatile, meaning it can do more over a wider range of capabilities.
So you folks wanting to drive your Smart Car airguns keep doing that. Those who need mini-van airguns (such as myself with my Leshiy) or prefer using big-bore Pick-Up truck airguns do what you need. As long as your own personal needs are met, versatility will simply be determined by EITHER the definition OR by your own personal bias. It is both subjective and objective :)
I definitely agree with the .25 air-bolts. If those came to fruition, I think everybody would be clamoring for 'em!
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The Idea is to figure out which one is the most versatile caliber going by the criteria of the term versatile,.....if you start plugging in personal needs/wants/ preferences,
then someone can come out and say the most versatile is the .50 and he would have the same weight arguing that then someone arguing for the .17
Manny, my friend, the OP made it personal by using the phrase "what do you think". You are right, each of us do have personal needs so the answer will vary.
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Ok so,
You can tell me all day how your Corolla is the most comfortable to drive to the store, super cheap on gas, cheap to change the oil, tires inexpensive.
The vast majority of the population will buy it because it's all they need, the best car to give to 17 year old as a first car ,.....and.....
I would completely agree with you, 100% no question :) :) :)
But, that still doesn't make it the most versatile vehicle on the road,
a more expensive to run 4x4 pick-up truck will be by far more versatile regardless.
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Ok so,
You can tell me all day how your Corolla is the most comfortable to drive to the store, super cheap on gas, cheap to change the oil, tires inexpensive.
The vast majority of the population will buy it because it's all they need, the best car to give to 17 year old as a first car ,.....and.....
I would completely agree with you, 100% no question :) :) :)
But, that still doesn't make it the most versatile vehicle on the road,
a more expensive to run 4x4 pick-up truck will be by far more versatile regardless.
You are again correct but, that is not what the OP asked.
He asked what was the most versatile for me.... and in my situation, the most versatile caliber would be the .20.
Yours will be different in your situation.
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You see, somewhere along the line the object of the thread got changed.
It has become general as opposed to specific.
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Ok so,
You can tell me all day how your Corolla is the most comfortable to drive to the store, super cheap on gas, cheap to change the oil, tires inexpensive.
The vast majority of the population will buy it because it's all they need, the best car to give to 17 year old as a first car ,.....and.....
I would completely agree with you, 100% no question :) :) :)
But, that still doesn't make it the most versatile vehicle on the road,
a more expensive to run 4x4 pick-up truck will be by far more versatile regardless.
You are again correct but, that is not what the OP asked.
He asked what was the most versatile for me.... and in my situation, the most versatile caliber would be the .20.
Yours will be different in your situation.
Actually the question is "....What you you think ? " rather then ".....What is for you "
and the original question opens the possibility of a debate and thinking, the other would just be a Poll and not go deep into the general meaning of caliber versatility
At that point .50 is just as good as .17
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Yessir... and I have nothing to base an opinion on other than guns I own and how I use them.... ;)
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That said.... I just saw a thread that read "Pimp my pistol".... I think I'll head on over there... ;)
On second thought, nevermind.... looks like he did it with a sharpie..
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at least this thread is steering away from back spinning lead balls and bbs. and Manny is actually making progress on his arguments civilly!
Versatility is defined by dictionary.com as below:
1. capable of or adapted for turning easily from one to another of various tasks
2. having or capable of many uses.
3. in Botany. attached at or near the middle so as to swing freely
4. in Zoology. turning either forward or backward
5. variable or changeable, as in feeling, purpose, or policy:
each and everyone expressed their own Op about versatility and they are not wrong! so you cannot argue which choice is more right than the other. versatile is indeed variable and adaptable, and that applies differently for each man or woman.
In airgun, whichever freaking caliber fits your needs! for me, its anything under .30 caliber! i can reach farther distances with .257 or .22 than the .30 or 357, 457 or .50 ever will with accuracy. And i can do that with more efficiency than just a couple of shots from big bore. I can hunt and defend a home (last ditch, last choice) with my Huben .22, i can use less lead for the same purpose in a survival situation with .172 caliber VS .30 or above with casting equiptment.
Airbolts are great but i dont need it because it limits your range, i can shoot out to 100+ yards with .257 and still kill most games, i dont need to hunt bears or elephans.
whatever floats your boats gents, certainly not curve barrels and back spinning lead balls or BBs for me...
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You can tell me all day how your Corolla is the most comfortable to drive to the store, super cheap on gas, cheap to change the oil, tires inexpensive.
The vast majority of the population will buy it because it's all they need, the best car to give to 17 year old as a first car ,.....and.....
I would completely agree with you, 100% no question :) :) :)
But, that still doesn't make it the most versatile vehicle on the road,
a more expensive to run 4x4 pick-up truck will be by far more versatile regardless.
You are right again because I think that a lot of us are not comparing Versatility to Practicability because the Corolla would be more practical but not as versatile
as a Jeep SUV. We could also say the a 357 is more versatile than a .22 but the 22 would be more practical because of the expense and ammo availability, plus a lot more reasons.
The next topic would be "What is more practical the 22 or the 25" or the 25 to the 30". A whole new ball game.
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It was “what do you think” and it was supposed to be a discussion. It could have been a good one. But somebody took it over, denied any possibility that a contrary opinion to his own had any validity, and then just relentlessly tried to get the last word in the thread.
I too am gonna give GTA a break one day. In fact I have taken several.
Some people just want to argue. It’s like a bunch of teenagers on here sometimes.
I got nothing else to contribute other than try to get the last word myself so I gotta cut sling load.
Have fun with it.
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Well, who wants to start the thread?... "What caliber do you think is the most practical".
I got lots of popcorn.
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Well, who wants to start the thread?... "What caliber do you think is the most practical".
I got lots of popcorn.
LOL...this thread does have more "legs" going in different directions than an octopus!
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/oo221/rsterne/.highres/Eating%20Popcorn_zpsdtq0rajy.gif) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/rsterne/p/f74cc7b0-865a-4258-a52a-bb3d54f10fd7)
Bob
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at least this thread is steering away from back spinning lead balls and bbs.
Versatility is defined by dictionary.com as below:
1. capable of or adapted for turning easily from one to another of various tasks
2. having or capable of many uses.
3. in Botany. attached at or near the middle so as to swing freely
4. in Zoology. turning either forward or backward
5. variable or changeable, as in feeling, purpose, or policy:
In airgun, whichever freaking caliber fits your needs! for me, its anything under .30 caliber! i can reach farther distances with .257 or .22 than the .30 or 357, 457 or .50 ever will with accuracy. And i can do that with more efficiency than just a couple of shots from big bore. I can hunt and defend a home (last ditch, last choice) with my Huben .22, i can use less lead for the same purpose in a survival situation with .172 caliber VS .30 or above with casting equiptment.
Airbolts are great but i dont need it because it limits your range, i can shoot out to 100+ yards with .257 and still kill most games, i dont need to hunt bears or elephans.
whatever floats your boats gents, certainly not curve barrels and back spinning lead balls or BBs for me...
Why be against a discussion of backspin when it is part of what makes a caliber versatile?
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Allright guys.... it's been fun and there has been a ton of good info but, I think it's time to bring it to an end before we start jabbing sticks in each other's eyes.
I'm going to lock it for Admin review.