GTA
Airguns by Make and Model => Weihrauch Airguns => Topic started by: abqjoe on October 05, 2019, 08:10:28 PM
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The story about my HW97K has definitely been a journey! I purchased my HW97K brand new from KRALE on 7/31, received it on 8/4, put 150 pellets through it and then decided I wanted to get it tuned so that I could have it at it's fullest potential. Because of the many recommendations to use Motorhead, including a recommendation from the guy I was originally going to use, I decided to go with Motorhead. We discussed what I was after and because I was not only using it for target shooting, but also backyard pest control, I needed a full power tune and I needed the rifle to shoot as quietly as possible, making it backyard friendly. I consulted Motorhead, asking his opinion on what I now know to be an age-old question, which is; what's my best option for making the most power? Having you use the factory spring, or a Vortek kit? To which his reply was an astounding "I always get the most power out of using the factory spring". Okay, let's do it!
So, off the rifle went to get tuned around a week after receiving it from KRALE. Now, being very new to Air Guns (only been into them for 4 months now) I was/am extremely trigger happy! Unable to stop thinking about how glorious my HW97K was going to be after receiving it back from Motorhead, I decided to order a Vortek kit for my HW77 just to give tuning a try myself. Plus, I figured for data sake, that this would give me the opportunity to compare the different elements in a tune between the factory spring and the Vortek kit. So, I get the Vortek kit in, tear my 77 down, lightly polish the piston and compression chamber, lightly hone the inside of the compression chamber, and using a small fine file I also did all of the necessary de-burring in the appropriate areas of the rifle. Cleaned everything up and lubed properly (not too much and not too little) and reassembled. I immediately felt the difference in the very first shot and I was immediately impressed with the results of the Vortek kit in my 77! Outstanding power, outstanding accuracy, outstanding consistency, and smooth as bald babies head!
A week or better later I receive a phone call from Motorhead telling me that my rifle is finished and that he's about to ship it out. Said when he received it that it was shooting 690 FPS and now after the tune it was shooting 640 FPS but that it would gain back most of what it lost after it fully breaks in. Cool, I was happy with those numbers! Now, I didn't know what my HW77 that I tuned was shooting because I didn't have a chronograph yet, but I assumed the Motorhead 97k was shooting higher because of what I was told so I was very excited! I get the rifle back, around 2 week after sending it out, unbox it, mount the scope, and set my sticks up in my backyard to start sighting in my HAWKE. Very anxiously I squeeze the trigger for the very first time, and it fires! I immediately notice that it is very smooth, very quiet, and almost no recoil, but, something just didn't seem right. I blew it off and chalked it up to it just needing to be broken in. I dialed in the scope as best I could but ran out of upward elevation clicks. Put 400 pellets through it, the accuracy was there, but all the while I just wasn't impressed and something seemed off, so I parked it in the safe for a while.
A couple of weeks later, Hector Medina made me an offer to send me one of his tuned Diana 56 TH's to test out with the option to buy. Said that the return shipping would be on me, this got me very excited and I said yes to the offer ( I will be writing a review on that rifle next week). At this point, wanting to be thorough in my testing, I realized that I would now have to purchase a chronograph, so I did! I received the chronograph from PA a few days later, set it up, pulled out my Motorhead tuned HW97K as my first rifle to test the chronograph with, and proceeded to send some pellets through the thing. It was then that I discovered what was wrong with the HW97K, which was that it was only shooting at 550 FPS, sub 12 FPE. So I called Motorhead up and told him about what was going on and he said no worries, send it back, that he'd pay for the shipping both ways and warranty it. He got it in, sure enough, was making very low numbers so he began doing what he does as a tuner, which is trying to locate the problem and remedy it.
Well, a few days later Motorhead gives me a call and said that he'd had the rifle apart 4 times that morning trying to figure everything out, and that he'd even tried several different springs to no avail. Said he started doing research and narrowed it down to pellet selection and said that he got it back up to 655 FPS with H&N FTT's. I told him that those were the exact pellets that I had been using all along, also Crossman Premiers. Anyway, I wasn't exactly ecstatic about 655 FPS because I knew that there would be a 50 FPS drop in power once the rifle got back to me at 5360' in elevation, which would put it at around 600 FPS making it a 12 FPE gun which is exactly what I didn't want. I get the rifle back and sure enough, chronoed between 589 and 600 FPS and continued to drop. Within 100 pellets it dropped back down to 550 FPS making it now a 10.5 FPE rifle which is toilet paper to me and my needs. Motorhead said that he did everything he could do so now I'm basically left with not wanting to get angry and just putting my brand new Black and Stainless HW97K that in stock form, shot 690 FPS, back in the safe. I was very disappointed, especially being that the HW77 that I tuned myself was shooting in the low 700's consistently with the same pellets and producing outstanding numbers in the high 15's to low 16's FPE.
Against much of what I've been told about Vortek kits on the forums, I decided to give much thought to trying a Vortek kit in my HW97K because of the successful results that I got with it in my HW77. Bayman here on the forum told me that they had just released their PG3 High Output kit so I gave Tom at Vortek a call personally to inquire about the kit. I ordered the kit, got the kit, ordered some new breech seals so that I'd have extras. Got the breech seals, touched up the piston and compression chamber with 600 grit wet/dry paper, doing everything to my HW97K that I did to my HW77, and put everything back together a couple of days ago. I shot the my HW97K for the first time yesterday while talking to Bayman on the phone and I could tell just by the way the rifle felt that the velocity was up substantially! Not only did the velocity feel like it was up, but when sighting in the scope with the Motorhead tune w/factory spring, I ran out of upward elevation clicks on the scope and was still 3" low of the mark. With the Vortek kit in, and the velocity being back up, I actually had to go down 25 clicks now to get it on the mark. While on the phone with Bayman, shooting my rilfe, I managed to shoot the two 40 shot groups in the pictures. No fliers and when I set up the chronograph during this first stage of breaking in the gun, the first 3 shots were 700 FPS, 698 FPS, and 696 FPS! We're back in business amigos and my HW97K is starting to become the rifle I had dreamed it would be! Today I went outside, set up the chronograph, and proceeding to chronograph the rifle while continuing the break in process, this rifle just continues to climb in numbers that surpass anything that I had expected! The second to last group in the pictures shows the numbers at around the 150 pellet mark and the last group shows the numbers of the final group of the day! Now I don't know if it's going to continue to hold those high numbers or not once fully broken in, but, I can say that I am finally happy with this rifle after 2 months of having it!
What's the lesson learned here? The lesson learned here is that there is no substitution for actual real life experience with a given thing, and that opinions are only as valid as the hard numbers that support them! The age old question of what makes the best power; factory spring, or Vortek kit is finally answered! With factory spring, at my elevation, 10.5 FPE. With Vortek's new PG3 HO kit 16.5-17.2 FPE! Even with the PG2 15.5-16 FPE. My HW97K is nearing Diana 54 Air King numbers while still maintaining near laser like accuracy!
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Very cool! Maybe have to get a PH3 for my HW77k...
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My HW 50S in .177 with a Motorhead top hat and spring guide shoots smoother than my HW 50S .177 Vortek PG2 kit. Velocity is about the same...
Go figure :-[
-Y
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Very cool! Maybe have to get a PH3 for my HW77k...
I can't do anything other than recommend it 8) The factory silencer that Weihrauch makes for the 77 is worth getting to! I have one for mine but because my 77 is the full length barrel I don't use the silencer anymore because it makes the gun to long to put back in the safe.
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My HW 50S in .177 with a Motorhead top hat and spring guide shoots smoother than my HW 50S .177 Vortek PG2 kit. Velocity is about the same...
Go figure :-[
-Y
Well, I will say that I do believe the barrel lapping he did on my 97K did improve the accuracy. The accuracy was really good right out of the box but there is a difference between a 5 shot 1 hole group the 2/3 the size of a dime and a 40 shot group the same size, with no fliers, as shown in the pics ;D He also did a great job with making some baffles to go inside of the factory hollow moderator too. The rifle is pretty quiet, like a 4 out 10 with 10 being factory loud.
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Very cool! Maybe have to get a PH3 for my HW77k...
I can't do anything other than recommend it 8) The factory silencer that Weihrauch makes for the 77 is worth getting to! I have one for mine but because my 77 is the full length barrel I don't use the silencer anymore because it makes the gun to long to put back in the safe.
Where did you get yours from? The only place I’ve seen them is from Krale, and they won’t ship them to the states.
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Very cool! Maybe have to get a PH3 for my HW77k...
I can't do anything other than recommend it 8) The factory silencer that Weihrauch makes for the 77 is worth getting to! I have one for mine but because my 77 is the full length barrel I don't use the silencer anymore because it makes the gun to long to put back in the safe.
Where did you get yours from? The only place I’ve seen them is from Krale, and they won’t ship them to the states.
PM sent.
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Jose
Very interesting thread!
Hope your vortex PG3 continues to impress!
FWIW I have used Vortex kits with outstanding results in a few different brands.
It’s really got my curiosity as to why the Moterhead tuned gun performed so lackluster??
Scott’s work and experience is impeccable so it’s got to be something freaky going on!
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Jose
Your story has prompted me to order a PG3 HO kit for an HW30S. All of mine shoot very nicely, but I decided to try a Vortek just to compare with the stock setup. I have two 2016 HW30's with which to do a direct comparison.
Now I have a question though. I recently reassembled a 1970 HW50, which came to me in parts (the ebay seller was about to part out the gun until I convinced him to sell me all the parts as a group). The 50 shoots, but it's much harsher than any of my other HW's. I'll have to investigate it which means going back inside, but I'd rather know ahead of time what to look for and what to change.
My question is, does anyone know if a PG3 SHO (http://vortekproducts.com/ourstore/PG3-TUNE_KITS/HW50-SHO_Tuning-Kit)Tuning-Kit kit will drop-fit into the 1970 model? And, is the VacSEAL26 worth the additional $15?
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Jose
Very interesting thread!
Hope your vortex PG3 continues to impress!
FWIW I have used Vortex kits with outstanding results in a few different brands.
It’s really got my curiosity as to why the Moterhead tuned gun performed so lackluster??
Scott’s work and experience is impeccable so it’s got to be something freaky going on!
Idk what caused it, all I know is between the bench time for the service, shipping to and from (twice over there with warranty work) him, that's $300 of my hard earned money that was not refunded. Figure in an additional 100 bucks for the Vortek kit and that puts me in at 400 bucks for a tune on a rifle that was $456 shipped from KRALE. But, as with any hobby, one usually has to pay to play and the best frame of mind is to aspire to learn how to do things yourself! Because nobody is going to care about your property or your money more than you do.
If I had to guess what the problem was, I would have to say that it was the Maccari seals. The Maccari breech seal was complete garbage and tore apart at pellet #50 and I had to dig it out and put the factory one back in. The only thing that he didn't try, from what I was told, was replacing the Maccari piston seal, which, I would have gladly paid for if it would have been presented as an option. That being said, I still have the factory spring with guide rod and top hat that he made and if any of you want it, I will give it too you for free, just pay shipping. Put a new piston seal on and see what happens. I'm not about money, I'm about community and truth..
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Jose
Your story has prompted me to order a PG3 HO kit for an HW30S. All of mine shoot very nicely, but I decided to try a Vortek just to compare with the stock setup. I have two 2016 HW30's with which to do a direct comparison.
Now I have a question though. I recently reassembled a 1970 HW50, which came to me in parts (the ebay seller was about to part out the gun until I convinced him to sell me all the parts as a group). The 50 shoots, but it's much harsher than any of my other HW's. I'll have to investigate it which means going back inside, but I'd rather know ahead of time what to look for and what to change.
My question is, does anyone know if a PG3 SHO (http://vortekproducts.com/ourstore/PG3-TUNE_KITS/HW50-SHO_Tuning-Kit)Tuning-Kit kit will drop-fit into the 1970 model? And, is the VacSEAL26 worth the additional $15?
Brother, your best bet would be to call Tom at Vortek direct. He is a very nice guy to talk to and very knowledgeable as well. Just remember, the kit stands alone as quality, but, you will still want to do the necessary 'minor' polishing, light honing, and deburring to compliment the kit. You'll definitely also want to make sure that none of the internals are out of round too.
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Interesting update. Thanks for taking the time to share these details and glad you now have your hw97k shooting to your desired specs.
I’ve tried dozens of JM and Vortek kits and no question the Vortek kits are designed to deliver more power. I often remove spacers or cut a coil to mellow them out a bit and have been pleased with their performance and longevity. My JM kits do seem to last longer, but in the big picture I don’t really care if one tune kit gives me 30,000 shots and the other gives me 20,000. I can change a spring in 10 minutes. The PG2 SHO kit I tried in my hw97k gave me 14fpe with JSB 10.3s and had excellent accuracy. With spacing I’m guessing power would have been in the 15-16fpe range.
The only Vortek kit that has consistently given me headaches are the hw30 kits. The ones I’ve tried in my hw97k and pro sport worked well.
I got a new PG3 kit yesterday for my R7. The included moly vac seal was too big to even fit in the compression chamber. Not even close. So I used a brand new Vortek seal from a prior kit and it fit just fine. Without spacers I got 535-540fps with JSB 8.4s. Will try again later today with spacing. Hoping for about 600fps.
R
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@ EM Rider, you may be pleasantly surprised... while my kit is the PG2; my R7 is rolling out @ 630-635 w/ 8.44's...+/- 500 shots in...good luck
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In regards to the Motorhead tune, I'd hazard a guess that it was much more pleasant to shoot when he was done with it.
I don't know Motorhead so no skin in the game but I do know, for myself (and many others here on the forum), that it's not all about power with springers. Perhaps he tuned it with that in mind instead of, "how much can I hop this thing up?!?!?!?"
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Yah, $300 for no real or little return is a hard pill to swallow. Glad you didn't give up and took the initiative to get it were you wanted it to perform. I hear nothing but praises about Motorhead on this forum. Do you think it could have been an anomaly in the physical properties of the factory spring that didn't show up until after he tuned it.
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In regards to the Motorhead tune, I'd hazard a guess that it was much more pleasant to shoot when he was done with it.
I don't know Motorhead so no skin in the game but I do know, for myself (and many others here on the forum), that it's not all about power with springers. Perhaps he tuned it with that in mind instead of, "how much can I hop this thing up?!?!?!?"
Of course the recoil was down, most of the spring noise was gone, but not all, and the baffles he made worked for reducing the minimal existing muzzle noise. But, the rifle was producing such low numbers that I ran out of upward elevation clicks on my HAWKE and the POI was still 3" below the mark. As far as what a builder tunes for goes, well, that should be determined according to what the paying customer communicates to said tuner and 10.5 FPE nowhere near resembles an acceptable number! With the Vortek kit, ALL of the spring noise is gone, velocity is up and so healthy that I actually had to come down 25 clicks on the elevation, and the accuracy is dead on and consistent! This thread btw, isn't for the purpose of slandering anyone, but is, about my journey with this rifle. Unfortunately, my journey with this rifle contains some not so nice truths and a lot of waisted money that never found it's way back into my bank account. I can't and don't shape the truth, only speak it in all honesty and relay the info and numbers onto the community as a free service so that others have some more food for thought when considering what to spend their money on. I know some people will be offended, but, the truth is what it is in my personal first hand experience and although I wish (and paid for) a different result, this is how the story would go.
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Yah, $300 for no real or little return is a hard pill to swallow. Glad you didn't give up and took the initiative to get it were you wanted it to perform. I hear nothing but praises about Motorhead on this forum. Do you think it could have been an anomaly in the physical properties of the factory spring that didn't show up until after he tuned it.
I do not and the reason is because he chronoed the rifle in factory form before the tune and it produced 690 FPS, which would have been 640-650 FPS at my elevation. Also, 690 FPS was with only 150 pellets through it so after full break in, at the least, would have produced 700 FPS. The only untouched variable is the Maccari seals. As stated, the Maccari breech seal failed on the 50th shot and the Maccari piston seal was the only rock left unturned during the warranty service. As a Quality Control guy by trade, I have given much thought to every aspect of this by figuring in all of the variables.
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The real truth!
Well, this was the real truth for you and your situation as you showed, and in my world the real truth hinges around hitting the target without the velocity although reading the velocity numbers from AOA always tell me that the velocities others are getting an their chronographs don't seem to match the Oehler they use there.....oh well! ;)
So what you are experiencing after 4 months of air rifling is the beginning of an explanation for a hypothesis that still needs testing before declared scientific fact.... ;D.....but to me the world of springers is always a mystery we all STRIVE for EXCELLENCE in!
I read where someone had the option to test and buy one of Hector's rifles and now I wonder if there is an option to buy his ugly old heavy .20 Diana Air King?
Hector you have the right to say what you want here but I don't have a Diana and it just occurred to me I'd easily like to have yours instead of going somewhere else to get an "unnatural" rifle!
You see all, even though I have mostly HWs not having a really tuned 54 that I've worked with tells me I need MORE time with this rifle....
I do have a couple rifles I'd send to the cause (your cause Hector!) to work with as "unnaturals" ;D: A Beeman Falcon R-s .25 and a TM 1000 .177--they both need refilling and the TM won't hold air. If these can be added to the "trial to own" then I'm in!
I was at 5,500 ft with a 1969 BSF Springer .177 shooting that until the late 70's in Washoe Valley, Nevada. That was the rifle that lasted forever with thousands of rounds fired over the years without scope and then with scope. I found a properly cared for decent springer will last a lifetime without any replacement parts and that was the philosophy ingrained in me about the quality of these rifles. Later in 1980s I met Beeman himself in San Rafael to buy an HW35 E B .177 and that reunited me with air rifles in Seminary in San Anselmo. From then I never thought about replacing a spring until I came to an air rifle forum later on. I read and thought maybe I should replace a spring like Kimber's 1911s after every 500 rounds or so. But I never got around to it and continued focusing on my own needs in an air rifle; which really dictate to me what works for my arena.
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Hey Joe,
From what I understand, High powered Vortek kits can give maximum power at the expense of a harsher shot cycle. OEM Weihrauch springs give moderate+ power, moderate shot cycle, but their springs don't have the quality many after market springs offer. AGH tune kits offer better power than OEM, with better shot cycle and spring longevity. Maccari isn't so concerned about max. power, but will tell you how to achieve it with his springs. Jim uses larger diameter springs with thicker wire vs. OEM.
High power Vortek kits are concerned with max. power by using smaller diameter, thicker springs. Smaller diameter springs create more power, with increased cocking force.
Because of your altitude, I believe you want max. power period and have made adjustments for any increased recoil ;). If they shoot very accurately for you ......... you're set 8)
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last year, i bought a tuned hw97k .20 from a tuner that said it was as good in power as it gets with the stock spring. so i tried it and it was just like i was shoot'n
a very accurate red-rider ... :o
contacted vortek about a power spring and other things needed to achieve the
power i needed for hunting.
i had a spring compressor already from doing work on other guns, i did it.
and it became on-fire with the jsb 13gr @ 830fps
it had some punch when you pulled the trigger, but the critters get the impact
of that punch.
now its my goto springer.....wait, its my only springer 8)
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What was the explanation as to why it wasn't producing the power you requested?
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What was the explanation as to why it wasn't producing the power you requested?
Just coming on here BEFORE this turns into a SLAM FEST ..... And after just doing another HW-97 in .177 caliber in the last couple days, HAVING THE SAME Power or lack of issue started to scratch my head and look for NON OBVIOUS answers ???
While I'm not wishing to slam others / manufacturers either ... Like JOE who is the OP of this thread going to call it as i see it ... THESE ARH "SGS" SEALS are at the root of the issue !!
(https://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/t/95s.jpg)
Doing a .177 with this seal as was used in Joes gun .. barely able to make 11 ft lbs and that with ARH's new HORNET spring https://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251488/1256921.htm (https://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251488/1256921.htm)
As luck would have it also had just received an order of seals from ARH having some of the "Hornet seals (https://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/t/rhs.jpg) in the order.
Where the SGS seal has a compression side lip the hornet does not, tho did require minor sizing. Where the HORNET must be heavily trimmed / sized to get a good fit. ( It has no expansion capacity )
CHANGED NOTHING but the seal and put gun back together ... BAM !! 14.6 ft lbs :o
In all my years of tuning, using ARH seals, OEM springs with custom guides NEVER have I seen this issue before and only because of doing two near identical guns back to back did I discover what is AN ISSUE !!
This issue of customer dissatisfaction / not getting what was asked for is between Joe and Myself and will be addressed in private to both of our satisfaction.
Scott S
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Good reply Scott!!! as we know no 2 gun's are the same and their are many variables at Hand!!!! when it comes to tuning!!! seals especially respond differently!!!!! :o
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Hey Joe,
From what I understand, High powered Vortek kits can give maximum power at the expense of a harsher shot cycle. OEM Weihrauch springs give moderate+ power, moderate shot cycle, but their springs don't have the quality many after market springs offer. AGH tune kits offer better power than OEM, with better shot cycle and spring longevity. Maccari isn't so concerned about max. power, but will tell you how to achieve it with his springs. Jim uses larger diameter springs with thicker wire vs. OEM.
High power Vortek kits are concerned with max. power by using smaller diameter, thicker springs. Smaller diameter springs create more power, with increased cocking force.
Because of your altitude, I believe you want max. power period and have made adjustments for any increased recoil ;). If they shoot very accurately for you ......... you're set 8)
In all fairness Kirk, and you know I hold very high regard for you. To say anything like, "From what I understand, High powered Vortek kits can give maximum power at the expense of a harsher shot cycle." is just relaying information that you've read rather than, your personal first hand experience. Reposting information that you haven't personally experienced doesn't help anyone. I would welcome you or anyone to shoot any of my Vortek kitted Weihrauch springers. After that you can make any statements about them you like. The only Vortek kitted gun I have that's remotely close to harsh is my peep sighted Hw30. Thats only because its only a 6lb gun making 8fpe. And btw its lazer beam accurate and has over 30k rounds on that spring alone. This rifle still has single digit extreme spreads and has more notches in its belt than any other AG I own. Granted it did start off making 8.5fpe and after a couple, three thousand rounds it settled down to 8fpe where it's remained since. In short please don't relay mis-information. Btw tomorrow I'm sending you those free 20 cal heavies and don't worry about the shipping cost. Someone here is sending me pellets they can't use for absolutely n/c so I'm paying it forward.
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Hey Joe,
From what I understand, High powered Vortek kits can give maximum power at the expense of a harsher shot cycle. OEM Weihrauch springs give moderate+ power, moderate shot cycle, but their springs don't have the quality many after market springs offer. AGH tune kits offer better power than OEM, with better shot cycle and spring longevity. Maccari isn't so concerned about max. power, but will tell you how to achieve it with his springs. Jim uses larger diameter springs with thicker wire vs. OEM.
High power Vortek kits are concerned with max. power by using smaller diameter, thicker springs. Smaller diameter springs create more power, with increased cocking force.
Because of your altitude, I believe you want max. power period and have made adjustments for any increased recoil ;). If they shoot very accurately for you ......... you're set 8)
Correct! Because of my altitude I NEED full power just to make up for what is lost naturally at my elevation. But no, the shot cycle is not "harsher," nor is the cocking effort greater. In fact, the shot cycle is smooth and crisp and the recoil is so much less that stock that I don't even have to loctite my scope mounts anymore to keep the scope from creeping! The cocking is smooth, tight, and very predictable. I have not one single negative thing to say about my Vortek PG2 or PG3 kits, only positive things and praise based on my actual first hand experience.
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The real truth!
Well, this was the real truth for you and your situation as you showed, and in my world the real truth hinges around hitting the target without the velocity although reading the velocity numbers from AOA always tell me that the velocities others are getting an their chronographs don't seem to match the Oehler they use there.....oh well! ;)
So what you are experiencing after 4 months of air rifling is the beginning of an explanation for a hypothesis that still needs testing before declared scientific fact.... ;D.....but to me the world of springers is always a mystery we all STRIVE for EXCELLENCE in!
I read where someone had the option to test and buy one of Hector's rifles and now I wonder if there is an option to buy his ugly old heavy .20 Diana Air King?
Hector you have the right to say what you want here but I don't have a Diana and it just occurred to me I'd easily like to have yours instead of going somewhere else to get an "unnatural" rifle!
You see all, even though I have mostly HWs not having a really tuned 54 that I've worked with tells me I need MORE time with this rifle....
I do have a couple rifles I'd send to the cause (your cause Hector!) to work with as "unnaturals" ;D: A Beeman Falcon R-s .25 and a TM 1000 .177--they both need refilling and the TM won't hold air. If these can be added to the "trial to own" then I'm in!
I was at 5,500 ft with a 1969 BSF Springer .177 shooting that until the late 70's in Washoe Valley, Nevada. That was the rifle that lasted forever with thousands of rounds fired over the years without scope and then with scope. I found a properly cared for decent springer will last a lifetime without any replacement parts and that was the philosophy ingrained in me about the quality of these rifles. Later in 1980s I met Beeman himself in San Rafael to buy an HW35 E B .177 and that reunited me with air rifles in Seminary in San Anselmo. From then I never thought about replacing a spring until I came to an air rifle forum later on. I read and thought maybe I should replace a spring like Kimber's 1911s after every 500 rounds or so. But I never got around to it and continued focusing on my own needs in an air rifle; which really dictate to me what works for my arena.
Actually I don't have a hypothesis lol, I've put the time, money, and work into it all to the point that I can now predict, with accuracy, the results of my rifles out here. I'm not regurgitating other people's opinions, what I am posting here are the facts and hard numbers. And this result is not a single isolated incident, remember, before I put a Vortek kit in my 97, I first put one in my 77 and had great success with that too! These are facts, stated and based on first hand experience.
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What was the explanation as to why it wasn't producing the power you requested?
That the pellets had to be 5.5mm as only when he tried H&N FTT's the power went up. Thing is, those were the only pellets that I was using. I know now that the problem was the seals because as of now, it's the same piston, same compression chamber, and same gun. Only differences are the spring and seals. But, before the initial build, the factory spring was shooting normal numbers which leave only the seals in question. As stated earlier, I will give this factory spring with custom guide rod and top hat away FOR FREE, to anyone, just pay shipping. As I'm sure with a new piston seal it will make acceptable power for someone.
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In all fairness Kirk, and you know I hold very high regard for you. To say anything like, "From what I understand, High powered Vortek kits can give maximum power at the expense of a harsher shot cycle." is just relaying information that you've read rather than, your personal first hand experience. Repositng information that you haven't personally experienced doesn't help anyone. I would welcome you or anyone to shoot any of my Vortek kitted Weihrauch springers. After that you can make any statements about them you like. The only Vortek kitted gun I have that's remotely close to harsh is my peep sighted Hw30. Thats only because its only a 6lb gun making 8fpe. And btw its lazer beam accurate and has over 30k rounds on that spring alone. This rifle still has single digit extreme spreads and has more notches in its belt than any other AG I own. Granted it did start off making 8.5fpe and after a couple, three thousand rounds it settled down to 8fpe where it's remained since. In short please don't relay mis-information. Btw tomorrow I'm sending you those free 20 cal heavies and don't worry about the shipping cost. Someone here is sending me pellets they can't use for absolutely n/c so I'm paying it forward.
Hey Ron,
Maybe I generalized ... to all other Vortek kits, but I tuned one of my HW30S a few years ago using a ARH spring and was only able to get about 625 fps with AA 7.33 Falcons. Being disappointed with this power level, I read that many folks had used the Vortek SHO kits and got 700 fps using the same pellet I had 8). Hence, I gladly shelled out the $80 for the kit and installed it. Long story short, the velocity increased to 650 fps, but the cocking and shot cycle difference led me to pull it from the gun and add it to my parts tray :P.
I think my gun's compression chamber is out of round, but I just decided to go back to what I had originally put in the gun and use it. The gun has always been very accurate.
Sorry I didn't put my actual Vortek experience in the post :-[.
I have also done a few tunes on my HW50's (using ARH springs), trying to get more power, just by adding a more powerful spring and found the shot cycle harness and unfair trade off for the increased velocity.
Not trying to bash Vortek kits, just not my preference, but they are really easy to drop-in.
Ron, glad you and many others really like them :D.
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In all fairness Kirk, and you know I hold very high regard for you. To say anything like, "From what I understand, High powered Vortek kits can give maximum power at the expense of a harsher shot cycle." is just relaying information that you've read rather than, your personal first hand experience. Repositng information that you haven't personally experienced doesn't help anyone. I would welcome you or anyone to shoot any of my Vortek kitted Weihrauch springers. After that you can make any statements about them you like. The only Vortek kitted gun I have that's remotely close to harsh is my peep sighted Hw30. Thats only because its only a 6lb gun making 8fpe. And btw its lazer beam accurate and has over 30k rounds on that spring alone. This rifle still has single digit extreme spreads and has more notches in its belt than any other AG I own. Granted it did start off making 8.5fpe and after a couple, three thousand rounds it settled down to 8fpe where it's remained since. In short please don't relay mis-information. Btw tomorrow I'm sending you those free 20 cal heavies and don't worry about the shipping cost. Someone here is sending me pellets they can't use for absolutely n/c so I'm paying it forward.
Hey Ron,
Maybe I generalized ... to all other Vortek kits, but I tuned one of my HW30S a few years ago using a ARH spring and was only able to get about 625 fps with AA 7.33 Falcons. Being disappointed with this power level, I read that many folks had used the Vortek SHO kits and got 700 fps using the same pellet I had 8). Hence, I gladly shelled out the $80 for the kit and installed it. Long story short, the velocity increased to 650 fps, but the cocking and shot cycle difference led me to pull it from the gun and add it to my parts tray :P.
I think my gun's compression chamber is out of round, but I just decided to go back to what I had originally put in the gun and use it. The gun has always been very accurate.
Sorry I didn't put my actual Vortek experience in the post :-[.
I have also done a few tunes on my HW50's (using ARH springs), trying to get more power, just by adding a more powerful spring and found the shot cycle harness and unfair trade off for the increased velocity.
Not trying to bash Vortek kits, just not my preference, but they are really easy to drop-in.
Ron, glad you and many others really like them :D.
No problems Kirk. I always liked you. This last post of yours was much more objective and useful. I'm sorry if I came across harsh. I get a little cranky when I see people relaying second or third hand information. It happens way too often. I'll get those pellets out to you. Tomorrow. Btw both my Hw30s teeter either side of 700 with 7.33 and neither of of them are harsh. My scoped laminate 30 is super sweet. The heavier stock and scope makes it a dead calm shooter. Ohhh and all 30s are "out of round" a little. The tubes distorts when they weld the stock mounting bracket to compression tube. Same for the 50s. Its usually not an issue Pm or call me if you want help with your 30.
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Yeah Bayman,
My .22 cal. HW80, converted to .20 caliber is easily my most accurate, long distance shooter. I replaced the OEM spring with a ARH HW80/R1 spring and it was harsh :P. Couldn't hit anything in .22 caliber so I cut a coil to reduce recoil, thinking this could help accuracy? When it didn't, I was thinking my HW80 was a beautiful looking piece of junk :-\.
Went out on a limb (listening to Yoda and OC) and purchased a .20 barrel for $113 from PA. The gun instantly turned into a laser with no changes. Because the velocity was approaching 810 fps using 13.73 JSB's (20FPE) , I cut another coil off the spring, hoping this would help the shot cycle. This did, but the gun's shot cycle is still "suddenly abrupt", to say the least. What's nice, is the gun is an absolute laser even with substantial recoil :o. I've been considering chopping the barrel or clipping another coil, but really don't want to fool with it as it couldn't be more accurate.
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When my tuner installed my vortek kit in my hw50s .177 which was the the standard power kit,non sho it lost 50fps as compared the the rifles stock set up when he chronied the gun.It has about 1500 rounds through it now and has gone up 10 fps since i first chronied it when i got it back It shoots at about 9fpe and im at 3000 ft elevation.
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The only thing I have to say about Vortek kits is that they represent instant gratification for most people. I have a lathe and the skill to use it. I can make spring guides and top hats all day long...That being said, I have bought five PG2 kits and installed four. All the installed ones are excellent. The one yet to be installed is/was destined for a TO1 triggered Diana 48. There have been issues over time with using the PG2 kit with them. The PG3 kit may be better here..At the end of the day, I wonder if there just isn't some resistance to changing times and technology. Myself, I hate tar and am happy not to have to manufacture parts and use it....I tell any one who asks about air rifles to buy a RWS/Diana 34 and a Vortek kit for it...Use the factory spring for the break in and then install the kit....
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The only thing I have to say about Vortek kits is that they represent instant gratification for most people. I have a lathe and the skill to use it. I can make spring guides and top hats all day long...That being said, I have bought five PG2 kits and installed four. All the installed ones are excellent. The one yet to be installed is/was destined for a TO1 triggered Diana 48. There have been issues over time with using the PG2 kit with them. The PG3 kit may be better here..At the end of the day, I wonder if there just isn't some resistance to changing times and technology. Myself, I hate tar and am happy not to have to manufacture parts and use it....I tell any one who asks about air rifles to buy a RWS/Diana 34 and a Vortek kit for it...Use the factory spring for the break in and then install the kit....
Yeah John,
I'm lucky, my Wife let me buy a lathe for my 56th birthday, so spring guides, top-hat etc. are fun to make .... I like to tinker too ;). So yes, I can tune my gun for the price of a JM spring and materials or about $25. Being a CFP, I've been conditioned, NOT to spend the $$ .... if I don't need to :D.
I begrudgingly use TAR, but that stuff gets everywhere... :P
I'm proud to be old school ;), because I have learned "All that glitters isn't gold."
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When my tuner installed my vortek kit in my hw50s .177 which was the the standard power kit,non sho it lost 50fps as compared the the rifles stock set up when he chronied the gun.It has about 1500 rounds through it now and has gone up 10 fps since i first chronied it when i got it back It shoots at about 9fpe and im at 3000 ft elevation.
They did something wrong.l with your gun. I think have the same kit in my 177 50. It's listed as <12lb and mine makes 11+fpe and the shot cycle is sweet. It's like its co2 powered. I got a great shooting rifle that delivered the advertised power. I've had it at my local ft range and a very experienced shooter /competitor there said, "Wow this is really nice, you did this yourself?"
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Ron,
I often replay other people's opinions. I do not call them my own. I read several forums and have for a few years. Nobody knows everything, but everybody does know everything.
Some people are to lazy to do a simple search. Some people do not even know the question that they are asking. :-[
Sharing knowledge, even second hand knowledge is what forums are all about! :D ;)
-Y
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Hey Joe,
From what I understand, High powered Vortek kits can give maximum power at the expense of a harsher shot cycle. OEM Weihrauch springs give moderate+ power, moderate shot cycle, but their springs don't have the quality many after market springs offer. AGH tune kits offer better power than OEM, with better shot cycle and spring longevity. Maccari isn't so concerned about max. power, but will tell you how to achieve it with his springs. Jim uses larger diameter springs with thicker wire vs. OEM.
High power Vortek kits are concerned with max. power by using smaller diameter, thicker springs. Smaller diameter springs create more power, with increased cocking force.
Because of your altitude, I believe you want max. power period and have made adjustments for any increased recoil ;). If they shoot very accurately for you ......... you're set 8)
Correct! Because of my altitude I NEED full power just to make up for what is lost naturally at my elevation. But no, the shot cycle is not "harsher," nor is the cocking effort greater. In fact, the shot cycle is smooth and crisp and the recoil is so much less that stock that I don't even have to loctite my scope mounts anymore to keep the scope from creeping! The cocking is smooth, tight, and very predictable. I have not one single negative thing to say about my Vortek PG2 or PG3 kits, only positive things and praise based on my actual first hand experience.
Glad you got your new HW97 shooting just the way you prefer 8).
I have enjoyed your posts as you always have something interesting and practical to say ;).
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Great thread Jose- very informative!
My general impression has been (over the years) that if you want it hot, put in a Vortek kit.
If you want it sweet, go for Maccari.
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Hey Joe,
From what I understand, High powered Vortek kits can give maximum power at the expense of a harsher shot cycle. OEM Weihrauch springs give moderate+ power, moderate shot cycle, but their springs don't have the quality many after market springs offer. AGH tune kits offer better power than OEM, with better shot cycle and spring longevity. Maccari isn't so concerned about max. power, but will tell you how to achieve it with his springs. Jim uses larger diameter springs with thicker wire vs. OEM.
High power Vortek kits are concerned with max. power by using smaller diameter, thicker springs. Smaller diameter springs create more power, with increased cocking force.
Because of your altitude, I believe you want max. power period and have made adjustments for any increased recoil ;). If they shoot very accurately for you ......... you're set 8)
In all fairness Kirk, and you know I hold very high regard for you. To say anything like, "From what I understand, High powered Vortek kits can give maximum power at the expense of a harsher shot cycle." is just relaying information that you've read rather than, your personal first hand experience. Reposting information that you haven't personally experienced doesn't help anyone. I would welcome you or anyone to shoot any of my Vortek kitted Weihrauch springers. After that you can make any statements about them you like. The only Vortek kitted gun I have that's remotely close to harsh is my peep sighted Hw30. Thats only because its only a 6lb gun making 8fpe. And btw its lazer beam accurate and has over 30k rounds on that spring alone. This rifle still has single digit extreme spreads and has more notches in its belt than any other AG I own. Granted it did start off making 8.5fpe and after a couple, three thousand rounds it settled down to 8fpe where it's remained since. In short please don't relay mis-information. Btw tomorrow I'm sending you those free 20 cal heavies and don't worry about the shipping cost. Someone here is sending me pellets they can't use for absolutely n/c so I'm paying it forward.
I’ve bought and installed probably a dozen Vortek kits and probably 5-6 ARH kits in my own and friend’s HW springers.
Based on my experience, I have no doubt that Vortek kits deliver more power at the expense of a harsher shot cycle versus ARH kits. That comment has also been made dozens of times on this and other forums by experienced tuners and others that have used both kits. Calling out someone for making that comment comes across as defensive brand cheerleading.
I still like Vortek kits and use then often because they are much better than OEM and sometimes I do want increased power. Obviously what Vortek delivers is quite popular. But sometimes I’ll use ARH for a milder shot cycle. It is good to have choices.
In the spirit of this entire thread, I’ve also had problems with inconsistent piston seal sizing from both Vortek and ARH.
R
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What was the explanation as to why it wasn't producing the power you requested?
Just coming on here BEFORE this turns into a SLAM FEST ..... And after just doing another HW-97 in .177 caliber in the last couple days, HAVING THE SAME Power or lack of issue started to scratch my head and look for NON OBVIOUS answers ???
While I'm not wishing to slam others / manufacturers either ... Like JOE who is the OP of this thread going to call it as i see it ... THESE ARH "SGS" SEALS are at the root of the issue !!
(https://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/t/95s.jpg)
Doing a .177 with this seal as was used in Joes gun .. barely able to make 11 ft lbs and that with ARH's new HORNET spring https://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251488/1256921.htm (https://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251488/1256921.htm)
As luck would have it also had just received an order of seals from ARH having some of the "Hornet seals (https://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/t/rhs.jpg) in the order.
Where the SGS seal has a compression side lip the hornet does not, tho did require minor sizing. Where the HORNET must be heavily trimmed / sized to get a good fit. ( It has no expansion capacity )
CHANGED NOTHING but the seal and put gun back together ... BAM !! 14.6 ft lbs :o
In all my years of tuning, using ARH seals, OEM springs with custom guides NEVER have I seen this issue before and only because of doing two near identical guns back to back did I discover what is AN ISSUE !!
This issue of customer dissatisfaction / not getting what was asked for is between Joe and Myself and will be addressed in private to both of our satisfaction.
Scott S
Scott,
Who make the good seals and who makes the bad ones?
Thanks,
-Yogi
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Great thread Jose- very informative!
My general impression has been (over the years) that if you want it hot, put in a Vortek kit.
If you want it sweet, go for Maccari.
Glad you enjoyed it! At my high elevation, the Vortek kit allows me to get the best of both worlds:-) Good power, extremely smooth and predictable, and accurate enough to satisfy even me, and when it comes to accuracy I'm not easily satisfied nor impressed.... Weihrauch already being a well built, accurate, high end springer, is only further complimented by a well designed kit such as the Vortek. I feel privileged to be able to experience the PG2 as well it's successor the PG3....
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Ron,
I often replay other people's opinions. I do not call them my own. I read several forums and have for a few years. Nobody knows everything, but everybody does know everything.
Some people are to lazy to do a simple search. Some people do not even know the question that they are asking. :-[
Sharing knowledge, even second hand knowledge is what forums are all about! :D ;)
-Y
Second hand knowledge is just hearsay. Unfortunately on forums it's often twenty second hand knowledge without any verification of the truth. Replaying other people's opinions in the guise of being helpful isn't helpful at all. It leads to perpetrating misinformation that send all sorts of people up a dirt road to nowhere. That said I've gleaned a lot of good information from the folks on this and other forums, but there's a lot of information you have to weed out as unfounded regurgitated garbage. I try only to put out my own personal experiences that I can actually back up. Relaying unfounded hearsay hurts more than helps. It's like asking someone on the street for directions. Most people when asked for directions to a place they don't know will say something wrong or where they think a place might be instead of simply saying they don't know. They do it trying to be helpful or to not look stupid. It's better to say, "I don't know" and remain quiet than to send the person up a dirt road because you heard or thought something that was never verified. Only facts matter and much of what we actually experience and express on forums as facts, myself included still has to be taken with a grain of salt because there's so many variables that sometimes aren't understood at the time of the posting. Everyone here would be better off if they would only post their actual experience and let the reader decipher the information that's most relevant to them.
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When I first started reading this forum , and others , to glean info, I absorbed all available on a subject. Taking the general consensus of a majority of posters seperates the wheat from the chaff... Mostly.
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Back to the subject of tuning...anyone here have experience with Titan mainsprings? I realize they're an across the pond thing... Don't hurt to ask. Thanks.
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Back to the subject of tuning...anyone here have experience with Titan mainsprings? I realize they're an across the pond thing... Don't hurt to ask. Thanks.
I haven't tried them but Hector Medina said he likes them....
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Update; the parts I was offering to give away are now spoken for..........
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I recently installed a Vortek PG2 SHO kit into my R1. I am very happy with the results.
My older R1 and P1 sat for many years without being used - gummed up with old lube - so after cleaning I figured to upgrade also.
I used the Custom Air Seals piston seal from Australia - based on comments from this forum.
The comments stated Custom Air Seals molybdenum impregnated seals were the best.
So I waited for it to arrive from Australia rather than use the Vortek supplied seal or one I purchased from PA.
I used the R1 breech seal from PA. The breech seal o-ring PA sent for my P1 was not the correct size.
They sent the wrong size in the correctly labeled bag and then charged me for restocking.
I then bought multiple sizes of o-rings from the O-ring Store to get the best fit.
I am currently waiting on a P1 piston seal from Custom Air Seals.
I bought a P1 spring from ARH - will install when I get the seal.
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When my tuner installed my vortek kit in my hw50s .177 which was the the standard power kit,non sho it lost 50fps as compared the the rifles stock set up when he chronied the gun.It has about 1500 rounds through it now and has gone up 10 fps since i first chronied it when i got it back It shoots at about 9fpe and im at 3000 ft elevation.
They did something wrong.l with your gun. I think have the same kit in my 177 50. It's listed as <12lb and mine makes 11+fpe and the shot cycle is sweet. It's like its co2 powered. I got a great shooting rifle that delivered the advertised power. I've had it at my local ft range and a very experienced shooter /competitor there said, "Wow this is really nice, you did this yourself?"
Everything I’m sure was done right Tuner has installed dozens of these and was a recommended tuner by Vortek.Im thinking maybe the spring itself was just a little weak.If I was hunting with it and wanted the most I could get out of it I would have tried another standard power Vortek spring but I just target shoots 20 yards max and it’s fine for that use.Besides it very accurate and the extreme spread is about 2-5 FPS with now about 1500 shots though it.
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I personally don’t think the Vortek kit is harsh, at least not in the my hw50s.Snappy and very quick shot cycle with no vibration or spring twang yes but harsh no.
Compared to my Paul what tuned .22 r1 with jm internals which has more of a poof feel to it When fired but also twang and vibration free where my 50s has a snap feel when the piston slams against then wall.I like both but if I were to install one of the other In a new spring gun I would go with the Vortek. Like others says easy drop in and no tar to mess with.
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When my tuner installed my vortek kit in my hw50s .177 which was the the standard power kit,non sho it lost 50fps as compared the the rifles stock set up when he chronied the gun.It has about 1500 rounds through it now and has gone up 10 fps since i first chronied it when i got it back It shoots at about 9fpe and im at 3000 ft elevation.
They did something wrong.l with your gun. I think have the same kit in my 177 50. It's listed as <12lb and mine makes 11+fpe and the shot cycle is sweet. It's like its co2 powered. I got a great shooting rifle that delivered the advertised power. I've had it at my local ft range and a very experienced shooter /competitor there said, "Wow this is really nice, you did this yourself?"
Everything I’m sure was done right Tuner has installed dozens of these and was a recommended tuner by Vortek.Im thinking maybe the spring itself was just a little weak.If I was hunting with it and wanted the most I could get out of it I would have tried another standard power Vortek spring but I just target shoots 20 yards max and it’s fine for that use.Besides it very accurate and the extreme spread is about 2-5 FPS with now about 1500 shots though it.
I'm sorry I said something wasn't done right. Maybe it's the elevation. I'm basically at sea level and I forget that makes a big difference. There was three PG2 kits available for the HW50 there's a 7.5 fpe detune, the "<12fpe" kit and a SHO kit. Mine started off stock making 11.8fpe. I went with the <12fpe Vortek kit because I wanted a smooth shooting rifle. I quickly installed the kit and it was making 12.5 fpe with a thousand times better shot cycle. Turns out mine was making additional power because the bottom of the compression tube had a couple of scores and it was dieseling. I honed out the scores the best I could and switched to Krytox to eliminate the dieseling and the gun dropped to 11fpe. I spoke to Tom at Vortek disappointed in my new lower power and he said, " no that's about where it's should be with that kit". In any event the gun is a dream to shoot. Other than the nearly Hw95 cocking effort which is Weihrauchs fault. If you were so inclined you could bump up the power another 25-30 fps by placing a 3/8" grade 8 (thick) washer between the top hat and piston. I'm leaving mine alone. It really is sublime.
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Ya bring up here at 3000 makes a difference. I didn’t have a chrony when I first got my gun so I had my tuner to see what it was at before and after tune kit. I did know of the other tune kits offered and almost went with the 7fpe kit but wanted the standard power 12fpe installed instead.
When the spring does wear down I’ll install the new pg3 kit.but in the meantime I won’t be shooting for a good while.
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Really? JM kits do not require tar in some guns at all! I just used a JM spring, with a JM guide and a top Hat I had that fit the other end of the spring with no lube at all! and theirs no mechanical noise at all!!!!! in my HW95 LUXUX .177cal its all muzzle report! tar is only needed if other issues present them selfs? like to tight of a piston seal fit! creating to much pressure to force the spring to bind! ;D
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I forget to mention that my tuner wasn’t sure why my vortek kit went down in FPS so he reinstalled the stock hw seal that came with my gun and the FPS was still low. So thinking it was the spring that was a little soft.He also said that he would install some spacers to bring up FPS I told him not to sweat it as long as it’s consistent
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There seems to be a group of JM or ARH supporters versus Vortek supporters.
I do not know the background behind this - but I think whichever spring does what you want is the best.
There is no best one, maybe just more better ( Aloha )
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HW Barrakuda anyone?
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There seems to be a group of JM or ARH supporters versus Vortek supporters.
I do not know the background behind this - but I think whichever spring does what you want is the best.
There is no best one, maybe just more better ( Aloha )
Yeah Robert,
IMO, most professional tuners "here" lean towards the JM springs and accessories because he's been around forever and provides excellent products. These tuners likely make their own specialty parts on a lathe or mill providing a custom fit; plus it's cheaper than buying kits. If customers request or seem to want "Power", then the Vortek kit is likely recommended.
I don't think any of these products are better or worse than the other, but I think JM springs, seals and lubes make it cheaper, allow for more customized work with the tools and knowledge to tweak all areas of the tune. Most DIYers, opt for the Vortek kits, because their easier to install, can provide max power and offer excellent results.
I, myself, tried a Vortek kit ending in disappointment and a waste of $80. I can tune 3 airguns for that cost and haven't been willing to try another Vortek kit.
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Kirk, speaking of lit types +tuning...did you ever get ur gun to go +/- 750 fps (in regard to yer camping post) ? Be cool to hear!
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Kirk, speaking of lit types +tuning...did you ever get ur gun to go +/- 750 fps (in regard to yer camping post) ? Be cool to hear!
What exactly did I say (which gun) ... I can't remember :P
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.20 R10...
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Backtrack several years, my brand new Krales HW98. Send it off to tuner, ARH SGS piston seal, anemic crony #s, send it back, different piston seal, problem solved. >:(
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There seems to be a group of JM or ARH supporters versus Vortek supporters.
I do not know the background behind this - but I think whichever spring does what you want is the best.
There is no best one, maybe just more better ( Aloha )
Bias opinions without firsthand experience is a dangerous thing! I just learned this the hard and expensive way...... This is why I share my journey with others, so that they can have a truth based on firsthand experience to lean their financial decisions on. For hardworking blue-collar guys like myself, 300 bucks is a lot of money to throw down the drain, especially when none of it comes back! I don't want to see anyone else go through this.... So you're correct, "whichever spring does what you want is the best." You are correct because your logic is based on personal firsthand experience.
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"dang" Jose your last post is some if the best life lesson reading ever
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I liked this discussion because it was taken with a very civil tone and attitude, it is a credit to the forum and to all the users here, thanks! Great discussion!
As an industry insider, let me add one more thing:
ALL "makers of stuff" (springs and seals among them), are dependent on the quality of the material they get delivered.
NONE of the small makers can afford a metallurgical/chemistry lab in house to determine if the material is the right one, or even the advertised/purchased one.
All of us "makers of stuff" rely on the past experience with a supplier, and we cannot do much if someone in that supply chain bungles anything (on purpose or not, is irrelevant, we cannot afford a lawyer to get the loss of goodwill back).
Whether it is seals, or springs, or even materials like Aluminum, Steel (in different grades), or plastic (delrin/nylon/teflon, etc), or wood. WE depend on those that sell to us the components, or the materials.
ANYONE from among our suppliers can have a problem, but if that someone is not fully candid and forthcoming, we have no way to transmit that information and "recall" those products we know will not be "up to snuff" at the customer's range or hunting grounds.
We cannot know what we do not know. And that would be a reason to deal with a "Professional". A Pro will stand behind his products and services.
Yes, sometimes it feels unfair that we have to deal with the problem, but that is life. Sometimes you're on top, sometimes you're not.
The only way to turn a bad experience into a positive one is by sharing what we learned.
Thanks for sharing!
HM
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I liked this discussion because it was taken with a very civil tone and attitude, it is a credit to the forum and to all the users here, thanks! Great discussion!
As an industry insider, let me add one more thing:
ALL "makers of stuff" (springs and seals among them), are dependent on the quality of the material they get delivered.
NONE of the small makers can afford a metallurgical/chemistry lab in house to determine if the material is the right one, or even the advertised/purchased one.
All of us "makers of stuff" rely on the past experience with a supplier, and we cannot do much if someone in that supply chain bungles anything (on purpose or not, is irrelevant, we cannot afford a lawyer to get the loss of goodwill back).
Whether it is seals, or springs, or even materials like Aluminum, Steel (in different grades), or plastic (delrin/nylon/teflon, etc), or wood. WE depend on those that sell to us the components, or the materials.
ANYONE from among our suppliers can have a problem, but if that someone is not fully candid and forthcoming, we have no way to transmit that information and "recall" those products we know will not be "up to snuff" at the customer's range or hunting grounds.
We cannot know what we do not know. And that would be a reason to deal with a "Professional". A Pro will stand behind his products and services.
Yes, sometimes it feels unfair that we have to deal with the problem, but that is life. Sometimes you're on top, sometimes you're not.
The only way to turn a bad experience into a positive one is by sharing what we learned.
Thanks for sharing!
HM
Yes sir, and you're correct, "A Pro will stand behind his products and services."
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You know Jose, I'm really sorry things didn't work out for you on your tune ... I would be peeved about the $300 too :P. That said, there's no one on this forum who's care and workmanship I would In-Trust more than Motorhead. Hector Medina and Bob Stern are there too.
Best Regards,
Kirk
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You know Jose, I'm really sorry things didn't work out for you on your tune ... I would be peeved about the $300 too :P. That said, there's no one on this forum who's care and workmanship I would In-Trust more than Motorhead. Hector Medina and Bob Stern are there too.
Best Regards,
Kirk
Well, all I know is that, business ethic as a whole needs to be applied when one chooses to provide a given service to the public. That being said, when one fails to be able to provide a given service with an agreed upon result, then, at the very least, a full refund is the moral and ethical response that should be given! I've ran many small businesses in my life, done a lot of business with a lot of people. Anytime I failed them in anyway, I did what was necessary to reconcile the situation, even if it required a full refund on top of replacing a product. But, that's just how I am! I value my honesty and my integrity above any dollar amount because in the end, it's not our money that we take with us or are judged by, it's our integrity and our character that we take with us! Business wise, with my approach, even when I make a mistake, said customer can and will only say "yes there was a problem but he made it right above and beyond what he had to". No integrity lost, no character damage to report, the light of honesty outshined the darkness of the mistake, no harm, no foul........... But, times truly are changing.
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You know Jose, I'm really sorry things didn't work out for you on your tune ... I would be peeved about the $300 too :P. That said, there's no one on this forum who's care and workmanship I would In-Trust more than Motorhead. Hector Medina and Bob Stern are there too.
Best Regards,
Kirk
I'm sorry Kirk. I strongly disagree. The facts speak volumes. The tuner was given exact goals and promised the results the customer was looking for. When things "didn't work out", the tuner was given the opportunity to get it working right a second time. Then sent back sub par results a second time. When a guy with only months into the hobby puts a pre-packaged kit into not only that particular rifle but a very similar hw77 with far better results (And documented at that) some sort of reparations need to be made. Listen I don't care how highly regarded someone might be they have to stand by their work and promises. When things "didn't work out" as contracted to do, the contractor has to make things right. As of now I haven't seen or heard of that.
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I upgraded my Beeman 5mm R1 with the Vortek PG2 SHO Kit - myself - because I am capable of most tasks.
I am a licensed Professional Engineer with ethics I am obligated by law to follow.
Current times do not seem to follow what was always the norm.
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You know Jose, I'm really sorry things didn't work out for you on your tune ... I would be peeved about the $300 too :P. That said, there's no one on this forum who's care and workmanship I would In-Trust more than Motorhead. Hector Medina and Bob Stern are there too.
Best Regards,
I'm sorry Kirk. I strongly disagree. The facts speak volumes. The tuner was given exact goals and promised the results the customer was looking for. When things "didn't work out", the tuner was given the opportunity to get it working right a second time. Then sent back sub par results a second time. When a guy with only months into the hobby puts a pre-packaged kit into not only that particular rifle but a very similar hw77 with far better results (And documented at that) some sort of reparations need to be made. Listen I don't care how highly regarded someone might be they have to stand by their work and promises. When things "didn't work out" as contracted to do, the contractor has to make things right. As of now I haven't seen or heard of that.
I have done business with Scott aka Motörhead before and will certainly do again.
Once he shipped me a tuned HW35e only to find out out FedEx had broken it in half. Scott contacted me, took the reins ,and filed the claim and did get me a new stock from Germany. This was a lot of time and work for him with out payment. Never heard anything from him except “ don’t worry I will make it happen”.
One “ah shoot, shouldn’t over rule 100 “atta boys”.
Mitch
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You know Jose, I'm really sorry things didn't work out for you on your tune ... I would be peeved about the $300 too :P. That said, there's no one on this forum who's care and workmanship I would In-Trust more than Motorhead. Hector Medina and Bob Stern are there too.
Best Regards,
I'm sorry Kirk. I strongly disagree. The facts speak volumes. The tuner was given exact goals and promised the results the customer was looking for. When things "didn't work out", the tuner was given the opportunity to get it working right a second time. Then sent back sub par results a second time. When a guy with only months into the hobby puts a pre-packaged kit into not only that particular rifle but a very similar hw77 with far better results (And documented at that) some sort of reparations need to be made. Listen I don't care how highly regarded someone might be they have to stand by their work and promises. When things "didn't work out" as contracted to do, the contractor has to make things right. As of now I haven't seen or heard of that.
I have done business with Scott aka Motörhead before and will certainly do again.
Once he shipped me a tuned HW35e only to find out out FedEx had broken it in half. Scott contacted me, took the reins ,and filed the claim and did get me a new stock from Germany. This was a lot of time and work for him with out payment. Never heard anything from him except “ don’t worry I will make it happen”.
One “ah shoot, shouldn’t over rule 100 “atta boys”.
Mitch
You still gotta make good on the one "ah shoot". In business your character is only as good as your last transaction
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Early on motorhead has stated that he will contact Jose to make it right. Now there was work done that Jose as I gather is satisfied with so that work should be excluded with this dissatisfaction. The rest is what needs addressing. So I see where MH is offering to make it right IMHO a full refund for the honing laping and other work should be paied in full and no refund. Now if MH wants to give a full refund for all work ok that's really great CS and I wont argue. How ever I have no experience with MH but I would like to know what the end result is. Lastly you all have been incredibly civil here and that is nice.
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I also agree everyone has been civil and professional in this discussion and that's part of what makes this a great forum. I don't know what kind of contract you both engaged in, but hopefully, you guys can work something out to give you both closure.
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My experience with the SHO kit in a97....I think the Vortek Kits are prone to mislabeling. I got a couple from PA, and they were SHO kits, as labeled by the PA sticker, but the tiny instructions had 12 marked rather than SHO. Happened with a d34 also. Never noticed till I chronied it. So check the insert before install to verify the kit.
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I also agree everyone has been civil and professional in this discussion and that's part of what makes this a great forum. I don't know what kind of contract you both engaged in, but hopefully, you guys can work something out to give you both closure.
I'll be honest with you, at this point, I don't even care about the money, he can keep the money as well as the bad karma that is now attached to it. The actual purpose of this thread is to share my data from my personal experience, the hard numbers. I got into this hobby just over 4 months ago and as with any hobby, there is a sea of information out there which makes fact finding difficult. For the most part, today's society is 90% opinion and 10% facts and I made this thread to contribute to the 10%. Making purchases based on other people's opinions is a very expensive thing, has been for me, in this hobby and others. That being said, it is my hope that a few people will find this thread informative and helpful in making future investments on Air Rifles, services, and products.
Stick to products that have a verifiable track record that consists of documented data, not just from the manufacturers and retailers, but from the customers too. Obtain services from individuals who have a proven track record of honesty and integrity, not just when everything is perfect, but also in the way they conduct themselves when something goes wrong. The true measure of a person's character isn't found when times are good, but when the trials come about. Last but not least, if it is in your natural capabilities to do certain work to your rifles yourself, then do it! The first Air Rifle that I worked on was my HW77, and it was a huge success! I watched countless tuning videos, read oceans of articles and posts, even applied what I know about 2 stroke engine theory, and after separating what I felt to be truth from fiction, I got her done and she runs like a champ!
Happy Shooting!
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I've followed this thread since it's inception, #1 sorry Jose that your expectations weren't met! As I understand it ,Moterhead is a very competent craftsman in his own right; that being said,one can not be faulted for suspect/faulty product from a manufacturer. It is incumbent, however that both parties should come to an amicable agreement regarding fullfillments of obligations or contracts.(made or implied)...as such, while people of good repute occasionally are saddled with a faux paux beyond ones insight or control.
..%#!$ happens... Hope everyone can get to a common ground &let's all continue to enjoy & share this past time which truly makes us whole. Good Day !
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Last but not least, if it is in your natural capabilities to do certain work to your rifles yourself, then do it!
Happy Shooting!
Jose, if you have as many guns as I do, it's a necessity ... and 1/2 the fun ;).
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The ARH Sgs seals wear like iron and I suspect they will last years if not decades in a rifle. But by nature they parachute during the cycle and can be slower shooting. But if have any tube issues, without honing, they will seal about the best. Cup face seals I have found get you the numbers, but only if your tube is true. The SGS seals are tricky to size for me, leaving the leading edge a few thousands larger than the rear wiper. I tuned my first HW 95 in .22cal with a Hornet kit and the SGS seal. I thought I finally outdone myself. No recoil, stacking pellets, just to find it was shooting 570 fps........lol. The spread was single digits. Took it back down, installed the Vortek seal, and a solid 720 fps rock and roller, seal unsized. I think the Vortek seals are the easiest to use, because they are so squishy. But I have found them large and small, and some so tight on the buttons they won't work. Jury is out on the longevity, but I have yet to take one down because of an issue.
The best fitting seal I have found for the 97k was the moly seal cup face from Custom Air seals. They fit real well in the comp tubes and the button in the piston.
Here is a pic of the SGS seal, and Vortek moly seal in the back (black in color),
(https://i.imgur.com/TqgAax3.jpg)
30mm bullet seal from ARH much like the hornet,
(https://i.imgur.com/ycsq3So.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/lCENirc.jpg)
One 97 I tuned, was eating breech seals, and have since polished the breech face on the barrel as many others do removing the lathe marks. This really helps with longevity of the breech seal. Keeping an assortment of seals give you many options for sizing. Blue ones below are from Australia, greens are ARH, and the red ones come from the UK and I believe they use to be called tough core, but I yet to replace as are showing no wear.
(https://i.imgur.com/n9dGPFS.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/W9l8TfC.jpg)
http://www.airgunspares.com/store/product/10534/WEIHRAUCH-HW77-%26-HW97-JKI-Breech-Seal-Part-No.-9071JKI/ (http://www.airgunspares.com/store/product/10534/WEIHRAUCH-HW77-%26-HW97-JKI-Breech-Seal-Part-No.-9071JKI/)
Jason G
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The ARH Sgs seals wear like iron and I suspect they will last years if not decades in a rifle. But by nature they parachute during the cycle and can be slower shooting. But if have any tube issues, without honing, they will seal about the best. Cup face seals I have found get you the numbers, but only if your tube is true. The SGS seals are tricky to size for me, leaving the leading edge a few thousands larger than the rear wiper. I tuned my first HW 95 in .22cal with a Hornet kit and the SGS seal. I thought I finally outdone myself. No recoil, stacking pellets, just to find it was shooting 570 fps........lol. The spread was single digits. Took it back down, installed the Vortek seal, and a solid 720 fps rock and roller, seal unsized. I think the Vortek seals are the easiest to use, because they are so squishy. But I have found them large and small, and some so tight on the buttons they won't work. Jury is out on the longevity, but I have yet to take one down because of an issue.
The best fitting seal I have found for the 97k was the moly seal cup face from Custom Air seals. They fit real well in the comp tubes and the button in the piston.
Here is a pic of the SGS seal, and Vortek moly seal in the back (black in color),
(https://i.imgur.com/TqgAax3.jpg)
30mm bullet seal from ARH much like the hornet,
(https://i.imgur.com/ycsq3So.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/lCENirc.jpg)
One 97 I tuned, was eating breech seals, and have since polished the breech face on the barrel as many others do removing the lathe marks. This really helps with longevity of the breech seal. Keeping an assortment of seals give you many options for sizing. Blue ones below are from Australia, greens are ARH, and the red ones come from the UK and I believe they use to be called tough core, but I yet to replace as are showing no wear.
(https://i.imgur.com/n9dGPFS.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/W9l8TfC.jpg)
http://www.airgunspares.com/store/product/10534/WEIHRAUCH-HW77-%26-HW97-JKI-Breech-Seal-Part-No.-9071JKI/ (http://www.airgunspares.com/store/product/10534/WEIHRAUCH-HW77-%26-HW97-JKI-Breech-Seal-Part-No.-9071JKI/)
Jason G
Those red breech seals, that's what I ordered for my 97 because I read that they are a harder material, which I found to be true when they came in. It is holding up very well! The Maccari breech seal failed after 50 pellets and had to be dug out and replaced with the used factory seal which worked fine until my red ones came in from the UK. I ordered a few just to have spares....
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Last but not least, if it is in your natural capabilities to do certain work to your rifles yourself, then do it!
Happy Shooting!
Jose, if you have as many guns as I do, it's a necessity ... and 1/2 the fun ;).
I only have 5 air rifles, including my first PCP, but I've owned hundreds of fire arms and learned to work on them myself. Fortunately, some of my closest friends are actually considered to be some of the best gunsmiths and custom gun builders in the world, like my buddy Chuck Warner.... It's nice to have them around to ask questions! Though they don't really pay much attention to air rifles, some gunsmithing is universal in it's theories and principles, and applications....
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My experience with the SHO kit in a97....I think the Vortek Kits are prone to mislabeling. I got a couple from PA, and they were SHO kits, as labeled by the PA sticker, but the tiny instructions had 12 marked rather than SHO. Happened with a d34 also. Never noticed till I chronied it. So check the insert before install to verify the kit.
That's frigging PA. They relabel and make poor substitutions all the time. I could go on a crazy rant about the problems I've had with them sending me the wrong stuff via their substitutions. Then they want you to pay return shipping and charge you a restocking fee because technically its not defective. Ugh! Don't even get me started.
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PA's only forgiveness= buy3 get 4th free...
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PA's only forgiveness= buy3 get 4th free...
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LOL!!
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PA's only forgiveness= buy3 get 4th free...
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Yes but you are paying more for the 3!!!! :P
-Y
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My experience with the SHO kit in a97....I think the Vortek Kits are prone to mislabeling. I got a couple from PA, and they were SHO kits, as labeled by the PA sticker, but the tiny instructions had 12 marked rather than SHO. Happened with a d34 also. Never noticed till I chronied it. So check the insert before install to verify the kit.
That's frigging PA. They relabel and make poor substitutions all the time. I could go on a crazy rant about the problems I've had with them sending me the wrong stuff via their substitutions. Then they want you to pay return shipping and charge you a restocking fee because technically its not defective. Ugh! Don't even get me started.
I've heard a couple of reports like this in regards to PA. For me personally though, PA has treated me so good that things I can get cheaper from another retailer or on eBay, I still buy from PA because I've experienced zero problems with returning stuff and they have just treated me so well! I recently purchased my first PCP from them, an FX Dreamline Tactical with AR stock. They recommended a certain scope when I inquired as to what a decent scope would be and they said just put a HAWKE Vantage on it, so I ordered it along with the HAWKE rings. Got everything in and just wasn't very impressed with the scope! Called them up, expressed to them that I wasn't all that impressed with the scope they recommended and asked if I could just pay the difference for an upgrade and go with the HAWKE 30 SF, to which they said sure. Told me if I wanted it quicker to just pay the full amount that day and that they'd ship it out ASAP and issue me a return shipping label for the Vantage and credit back the full amount paid for that scope and rings once it arrived to them. Everything went smooth and quick and I love the new scope! This was the second time I had to return something and it was the second time that they proved their integrity to me as an honest retailer.
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My experience with the SHO kit in a97....I think the Vortek Kits are prone to mislabeling. I got a couple from PA, and they were SHO kits, as labeled by the PA sticker, but the tiny instructions had 12 marked rather than SHO. Happened with a d34 also. Never noticed till I chronied it. So check the insert before install to verify the kit.
That's frigging PA. They relabel and make poor substitutions all the time. I could go on a crazy rant about the problems I've had with them sending me the wrong stuff via their substitutions. Then they want you to pay return shipping and charge you a restocking fee because technically its not defective. Ugh! Don't even get me started.
I've heard a couple of reports like this in regards to PA. For me personally though, PA has treated me so good that things I can get cheaper from another retailer or on eBay, I still buy from PA because I've experienced zero problems with returning stuff and they have just treated me so well! I recently purchased my first PCP from them, an FX Dreamline Tactical with AR stock. They recommended a certain scope when I inquired as to what a decent scope would be and they said just put a HAWKE Vantage on it, so I ordered it along with the HAWKE rings. Got everything in and just wasn't very impressed with the scope! Called them up, expressed to them that I wasn't all that impressed with the scope they recommended and asked if I could just pay the difference for an upgrade and go with the HAWKE 30 SF, to which they said sure. Told me if I wanted it quicker to just pay the full amount that day and that they'd ship it out ASAP and issue me a return shipping label for the Vantage and credit back the full amount paid for that scope and rings once it arrived to them. Everything went smooth and quick and I love the new scope! This was the second time I had to return something and it was the second time that they proved their integrity to me as an honest retailer.
Jose, I can tell you have the heart in treating all fair over taking advantage, and paying more to avoid trouble is a general rule in any purchase.
I have guns from PA and the Depot and Straight Shooters as well as AOA--the latter being my only place to buy rifles since I found out PA and AGD couldn't sell me a rifle in a caliber above the tiny weeny .177!
So when I ordered the HW80 Left Hand Stock (sent by accident from Lauren--her mistake and she owned up to it) I kept it after shooting it. It shot extremely well and the stock itself is gorgeous. I just got an Android and I think I can post pictures with this thing so pretty soon you'll all see the pics.
Anyway, it turned out I found my reliable place for purchasing and it isn't overseas at Krale either. I know others talk about saving money somehow through someone but in the end when you establish a relationship with the shop like I have you always feel at home when buying. They do the best job for me.
When I ask someone to work on a rifle I have to meet them in person usually like I did in my firearm days. I found a gunsmith who knew me and that is what made me keep going back to him (that was Murphy at Murphy's Gun Shop in Tucson, AZ).
In the world of air I watch how things are done to repair and improve air rifles mostly here now, and to tell you the truth you ended it with the right attitude for all IMO. ;D
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Jose I remember last year I believe, telling people about my Prosport situations. My first one had some type of water stain like it was a ring going around cross grain like its been standing in water. So they exchanged it with no qualms. Then the new one came and kept it for about a year and a half. Sent it in to PA for service which is free and lifetime I think. Not sure but have to check. Anyway reason for the service was it still sounded very harsh and gritty. Their tech from what I learned did his job but quieted it down with mucho spring tar and upon getting it back , UPS or someone other than me damages my shroud by way of scratches deep into the bluing where you can see bare metal, stock scratched and the box was semi torn open in those areas. Contacted PA and had a small fiasco as to handling the situation since they were the ones who shipped it. I wrote about it on here and some of the members started runnung their jibbs talking about if they were PA they wouldn't deal with me because im always trying tonreturn something or they wouldn't deal with me as a customer anymore or PA went beyond what anyone should do. Also they wouldn't want to by a prosport that I returned. Dude I was so peeved because the ones running their mouth didn't even read the post aside from what they wanted to read. Ibhad to straighten them (members) out. I felt like they were trying to a cold me or something
Anyway so for the rant. My point is that this forum can be awesom at times well more times than not but there is always someone with a asinine opinion that has to do with little to no facts and a lot of hearing themselves. I am just happy that you didn't have to go through it and you & Scott have hopefully came to a conclusion or a meeting of the minds to alleviate and problems be it financial or mechanical. He is good people and from what I read of your posts that your good people as well. I would love to meet you one day. Take care brother
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Back to the subject of tuning...anyone here have experience with Titan mainsprings? I realize they're an across the pond thing... Don't hurt to ask. Thanks.
Some years ago, I was having early problems with the OEM springs for the D 350. As then advertised.., I imported a Titan #14 (from Germany). The OD is too large. To start, you can't use the OEM spring sleeve. Then, I was told by the dealer and manufacturer(?) to don't use the sleeve. Even so, it scratched (a LOT) on the piston wall. Just 50 rounds and I gave up. Btw, the fps was the "same" of a OEM spring.
Price + shipping costs certainly in the trash; I just don't want to remember if there was importing taxes to that case (by sampling, 60% over CIF) .
I ended up using the Vortek springs, and they have been ok.
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I bought a Vortek kit for my HW97kt. I can't remember if its a PG2 or 3. However, I still haven't installed it. I get good enough accuracy and power from the OEM spring. In fact, I haven't done anything to the rifle other than shoot it but I'm relatively easy to please. I've been able to shoot a squirrel in the eye from 50m and that's certainly good enough for me. When I bought that spring kit, I also bought one for my D56. Now that spring I did use, and my D56 is a much smoother shooter now because of it. I think its also more powerful too but can't remember. I don't have my data on hand at this moment. Its not a lot more powerful though and I'm certain about that.
OTOH, in the same order, I bought some piston seals for two other rifles- a 26 mm seal and a 25 mm seal. Neither seal fit in the rifles; the seals were both too small. I have a hard time getting an accurate measurement from my micrometer on the seals since the seals squish just a bit. So, I'm not sure what the issue is. Vortek may have a QC issue with their seals but IDK. I didn't bother returning them since my opinion is like Jason's above that its just a good idea to have a variety of seals on hand. You never know when you'll not be able to get one anymore. I'm still searching for a replacement seal for one of those rifles but the other one is up and running. I ended up getting a seal from Custom AirSeals and that one fit- the rifle being a Marksman 0035. I've ended up spending more money on that rifle than its worth after buying two replacement seals for it but it is what it is. BTW: that rifle turned out to be a sweet little shooter...
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* This is going to be LAST and final post on this subject ...
Stuff happens and not always good for both or either party. The parts we use are only as good as the material used in said parts. The Seals used were ARH and correctly sized and fitted. There is no liability from the seal manufacturer that the seals were correctly made or correct material used, I'm SOL on getting replacements or any time or $$ reimbursement. ... I only discovered this SGS seal to be an issue by a repeat issue in another gun shortly after Jose got his gun back the second time with still sub power for his high elevation shooting.
Upon discovering not a week later the SGS seal issue did Jose ALREADY dismantle and redo the gun, Vortek kit installed and this post got generated. He offered the OEM spring and Custom guide up FOR FREE no less.
Ok, thats fine it's his gun and can do with it as he feels fit.
As for a refund ... No, because I too am victim of poor parts and manufacturing that is not being made $$ right either, paid for by the third part here. Also there was much other work that went into said gun being Barrel work, Trigger work, Tube honing along with the manufacturing of a custom guide too. These are all labors that are still there with the rifle in spite a seal & spring change done after the fact.
Being Jose took it upon himself to change stuff rather than working threw a cure together ( I get it, was here twice ) and the cure would have come to light not a week later and As I Always Do, would have made it right on My dime and had customer satisfied come days end. That opportunity was nixed with there being nothing more to do being he went another route.
Being called out by PARTIES not even involved is BS !! Being softly slandered by OP is also BS !! We are a small community here and my Workmanship and Character are stellar and for good reason.
Again, what is the resolve of this should be private and NOT fodder to be poked and jabbed at on a public forum.
Scott Schneider
Motorheads AG Tuning Services
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Gentlemen this post will remain locked for obvious reasons, Scott has been a member here almost as long as I, He passes his knowledge freely on this forum. He is the best tuner of most any airgun that I have ever known. I will say I have built many many engines in my life that didn't win the race, But my part was right I did not make the parts. David