My HW97K and the real truth about Vortek kits!

[prosportfan]

"dang" Jose your last post is some if the best life lesson reading ever

[HectorMedina]

I liked this discussion because it was taken with a very civil tone and attitude, it is a credit to the forum and to all the users here, thanks! Great discussion!

As an industry insider, let me add one more thing:

ALL "makers of stuff" (springs and seals among them), are dependent on the quality of the material they get delivered.
NONE of the small makers can afford a metallurgical/chemistry lab in house to determine if the material is the right one, or even the advertised/purchased one.
All of us "makers of stuff" rely on the past experience with a supplier, and we cannot do much if someone in that supply chain bungles anything (on purpose or not, is irrelevant, we cannot afford a lawyer to get the loss of goodwill back).
Whether it is seals, or springs, or even materials like Aluminum, Steel (in different grades), or plastic (delrin/nylon/teflon, etc), or wood. WE depend on those that sell to us the components, or the materials.

ANYONE from among our suppliers can have a problem, but if that someone is not fully candid and forthcoming, we have no way to transmit that information and "recall" those products we know will not be "up to snuff" at the customer's range or hunting grounds.
We cannot know what we do not know. And that would be a reason to deal with a "Professional". A Pro will stand behind his products and services.

Yes, sometimes it feels unfair that we have to deal with the problem, but that is life. Sometimes you're on top, sometimes you're not.

The only way to turn a bad experience into a positive one is by sharing what we learned.

Thanks for sharing!








HM

[abqjoe]

I liked this discussion because it was taken with a very civil tone and attitude, it is a credit to the forum and to all the users here, thanks! Great discussion!

As an industry insider, let me add one more thing:

ALL "makers of stuff" (springs and seals among them), are dependent on the quality of the material they get delivered.
NONE of the small makers can afford a metallurgical/chemistry lab in house to determine if the material is the right one, or even the advertised/purchased one.
All of us "makers of stuff" rely on the past experience with a supplier, and we cannot do much if someone in that supply chain bungles anything (on purpose or not, is irrelevant, we cannot afford a lawyer to get the loss of goodwill back).
Whether it is seals, or springs, or even materials like Aluminum, Steel (in different grades), or plastic (delrin/nylon/teflon, etc), or wood. WE depend on those that sell to us the components, or the materials.

ANYONE from among our suppliers can have a problem, but if that someone is not fully candid and forthcoming, we have no way to transmit that information and "recall" those products we know will not be "up to snuff" at the customer's range or hunting grounds.
We cannot know what we do not know. And that would be a reason to deal with a "Professional". A Pro will stand behind his products and services.

Yes, sometimes it feels unfair that we have to deal with the problem, but that is life. Sometimes you're on top, sometimes you're not.

The only way to turn a bad experience into a positive one is by sharing what we learned.

Thanks for sharing!








HM

Yes sir, and you're correct, "A Pro will stand behind his products and services."

[SpiralGroove]

You know Jose, I'm really sorry things didn't work out for you on your tune ... I would be peeved about the $300 too .  That said, there's no one on this forum who's care and workmanship I would In-Trust more than Motorhead.  Hector Medina and Bob Stern are there too.   
Best Regards,
Kirk

[abqjoe]

You know Jose, I'm really sorry things didn't work out for you on your tune ... I would be peeved about the $300 too .  That said, there's no one on this forum who's care and workmanship I would In-Trust more than Motorhead.  Hector Medina and Bob Stern are there too.   
Best Regards,
Kirk

Well, all I know is that, business ethic as a whole needs to be applied when one chooses to provide a given service to the public. That being said, when one fails to be able to provide a given service with an agreed upon result, then, at the very least, a full refund is the moral and ethical response that should be given! I've ran many small businesses in my life, done a lot of business with a lot of people. Anytime I failed them in anyway, I did what was necessary to reconcile the situation, even if it required a full refund on top of replacing a product. But, that's just how I am! I value my honesty and my integrity above any dollar amount because in the end, it's not our money that we take with us or are judged by, it's our integrity and our character that we take with us! Business wise, with my approach, even when I make a mistake, said customer can and will only say "yes there was a problem but he made it right above and beyond what he had to". No integrity lost, no character damage to report, the light of honesty outshined the darkness of the mistake, no harm, no foul........... But, times truly are changing.

[Bayman]

You know Jose, I'm really sorry things didn't work out for you on your tune ... I would be peeved about the $300 too .  That said, there's no one on this forum who's care and workmanship I would In-Trust more than Motorhead.  Hector Medina and Bob Stern are there too.   
Best Regards,
Kirk

I'm sorry Kirk. I strongly disagree. The facts speak volumes. The tuner was given exact goals and promised the results the customer was looking for. When things "didn't work out", the tuner was given the opportunity to get it working right a second time.  Then sent back sub par results a second time. When a guy with only months into the hobby puts a pre-packaged kit into not only that particular rifle but a very similar hw77 with far better results (And documented at that) some sort of reparations need to be made. Listen I don't care how highly regarded someone might be they have to stand by their work and promises. When things "didn't work out" as contracted to do, the contractor has to make things right. As of now I haven't seen or heard of that.

[Robert 5mm]

I upgraded my Beeman 5mm R1 with the Vortek PG2 SHO Kit - myself - because I am capable of most tasks.
I am a licensed Professional Engineer with ethics I am obligated by law to follow.
Current times do not seem to follow what was always the norm.

[ssbn617]

You know Jose, I'm really sorry things didn't work out for you on your tune ... I would be peeved about the $300 too .  That said, there's no one on this forum who's care and workmanship I would In-Trust more than Motorhead.  Hector Medina and Bob Stern are there too.   
Best Regards,

I'm sorry Kirk. I strongly disagree. The facts speak volumes. The tuner was given exact goals and promised the results the customer was looking for. When things "didn't work out", the tuner was given the opportunity to get it working right a second time.  Then sent back sub par results a second time. When a guy with only months into the hobby puts a pre-packaged kit into not only that particular rifle but a very similar hw77 with far better results (And documented at that) some sort of reparations need to be made. Listen I don't care how highly regarded someone might be they have to stand by their work and promises. When things "didn't work out" as contracted to do, the contractor has to make things right. As of now I haven't seen or heard of that.

I have done business with Scott aka Motörhead before and will certainly do again.
Once he shipped me a tuned HW35e only to find out out FedEx had broken it in half. Scott contacted me, took the reins ,and filed the claim and did get me a new stock from Germany. This was a lot of time and work for him with out payment. Never heard anything from him except “ don’t worry I will make it happen”.
One “ah shoot, shouldn’t over rule 100 “atta boys”.
Mitch

[Bayman]

You know Jose, I'm really sorry things didn't work out for you on your tune ... I would be peeved about the $300 too .  That said, there's no one on this forum who's care and workmanship I would In-Trust more than Motorhead.  Hector Medina and Bob Stern are there too.   
Best Regards,

I'm sorry Kirk. I strongly disagree. The facts speak volumes. The tuner was given exact goals and promised the results the customer was looking for. When things "didn't work out", the tuner was given the opportunity to get it working right a second time.  Then sent back sub par results a second time. When a guy with only months into the hobby puts a pre-packaged kit into not only that particular rifle but a very similar hw77 with far better results (And documented at that) some sort of reparations need to be made. Listen I don't care how highly regarded someone might be they have to stand by their work and promises. When things "didn't work out" as contracted to do, the contractor has to make things right. As of now I haven't seen or heard of that.

I have done business with Scott aka Motörhead before and will certainly do again.
Once he shipped me a tuned HW35e only to find out out FedEx had broken it in half. Scott contacted me, took the reins ,and filed the claim and did get me a new stock from Germany. This was a lot of time and work for him with out payment. Never heard anything from him except “ don’t worry I will make it happen”.
One “ah shoot, shouldn’t over rule 100 “atta boys”.
Mitch

You still gotta make good on the one "ah shoot". In business your character is only as good as your last transaction

[Insanity]

Early on motorhead has stated that he will contact Jose to make it right. Now there was work done that Jose as I gather is satisfied with so that work should be excluded with this dissatisfaction. The rest is what needs addressing. So I see where MH is offering to make it right IMHO a full refund for the honing laping and other work should be paied in full and no refund. Now if MH wants to give a full refund for all work ok that's really great CS and I wont argue. How ever I have no experience with MH but I would like to know what the end result is. Lastly you all have been incredibly civil here and that is nice.

[3 at 8]

I also agree everyone has been civil and professional in this discussion and that's part of what makes this a great forum. I don't know what kind of contract you both engaged in, but hopefully, you guys can work something out to give you both closure.

[Sky]

My experience with the SHO kit in a97....I think the Vortek Kits are prone to mislabeling. I got a couple from PA, and they were SHO kits, as labeled by the PA sticker, but the tiny instructions had 12 marked rather than SHO. Happened with a d34 also. Never noticed till I chronied it. So check the insert before install to verify the kit.

[abqjoe]

I also agree everyone has been civil and professional in this discussion and that's part of what makes this a great forum. I don't know what kind of contract you both engaged in, but hopefully, you guys can work something out to give you both closure.

I'll be honest with you, at this point, I don't even care about the money, he can keep the money as well as the bad karma that is now attached to it. The actual purpose of this thread is to share my data from my personal experience, the hard numbers. I got into this hobby just over 4 months ago and as with any hobby, there is a sea of information out there which makes fact finding difficult. For the most part, today's society is 90% opinion and 10% facts and I made this thread to contribute to the 10%. Making purchases based on other people's opinions is a very expensive thing, has been for me, in this hobby and others. That being said, it is my hope that a few people will find this thread informative and helpful in making future investments on Air Rifles, services, and products.
Stick to products that have a verifiable track record that consists of documented data, not just from the manufacturers and retailers, but from the customers too. Obtain services from individuals who have a proven track record of honesty and integrity, not just when everything is perfect, but also in the way they conduct themselves when something goes wrong. The true measure of a person's character isn't found when times are good, but when the trials come about. Last but not least, if it is in your natural capabilities to do certain work to your rifles yourself, then do it! The first Air Rifle that I worked on was my HW77,  and it was a huge success! I watched countless tuning videos, read oceans of articles and posts, even applied what I know about 2 stroke engine theory, and after separating what I felt to be truth from fiction, I got her done and she runs like a champ!

Happy Shooting!

[Chouchin66]

I've followed this thread since it's inception, #1 sorry Jose that your expectations weren't met! As I understand it ,Moterhead is a very competent craftsman in his own right; that being said,one can not be faulted for suspect/faulty product from a manufacturer. It is incumbent, however that both parties should come to an amicable agreement regarding fullfillments of obligations or contracts.(made or implied)...as such, while people of good repute occasionally are saddled with a faux paux beyond ones insight or control.
..%#!$ happens... Hope everyone can get to a common ground &let's all continue to enjoy & share this past time which truly makes us whole. Good Day !

[SpiralGroove]

Last but not least, if it is in your natural capabilities to do certain work to your rifles yourself, then do it!
Happy Shooting!

Jose, if you have as many guns as I do, it's a necessity ... and 1/2 the fun .

[Jason_Garvin]

The ARH Sgs seals wear like iron and I suspect they will last years if not decades in a rifle.  But by nature they parachute during the cycle and can be slower shooting.  But if have any tube issues, without honing, they will seal about the best.  Cup face seals I have found get you the numbers, but only if your tube is true.  The SGS seals are tricky to size for me, leaving the leading edge a few thousands larger than the rear wiper.  I tuned my first HW 95 in .22cal with a Hornet kit and the SGS seal.  I thought I finally outdone myself.  No recoil, stacking pellets, just to find it was shooting 570 fps........lol.  The spread was single digits.  Took it back down, installed the Vortek seal, and a solid 720 fps rock and roller, seal unsized.  I think the Vortek seals are the easiest to use, because they are so squishy.  But I have found them large and small, and some so tight on the buttons they won't work.  Jury is out on the longevity, but I have yet to take one down because of an issue.

The best fitting seal I have found for the 97k was the moly seal cup face from Custom Air seals.  They fit real well in the comp tubes and the button in the piston.

Here is a pic of the SGS seal, and Vortek moly seal in the back (black in color),



30mm bullet seal from ARH much like the hornet,





One 97 I tuned, was eating breech seals, and have since polished the breech face on the barrel as many others do removing the lathe marks.  This really helps with longevity of the breech seal.  Keeping an assortment of seals give you many options for sizing.  Blue ones below are from Australia, greens are ARH, and the red ones come from the UK and I believe they use to be called tough core, but I yet to replace as are showing no wear.





http://www.airgunspares.com/store/product/10534/WEIHRAUCH-HW77-%26-HW97-JKI-Breech-Seal-Part-No.-9071JKI/

Jason G

[abqjoe]

The ARH Sgs seals wear like iron and I suspect they will last years if not decades in a rifle.  But by nature they parachute during the cycle and can be slower shooting.  But if have any tube issues, without honing, they will seal about the best.  Cup face seals I have found get you the numbers, but only if your tube is true.  The SGS seals are tricky to size for me, leaving the leading edge a few thousands larger than the rear wiper.  I tuned my first HW 95 in .22cal with a Hornet kit and the SGS seal.  I thought I finally outdone myself.  No recoil, stacking pellets, just to find it was shooting 570 fps........lol.  The spread was single digits.  Took it back down, installed the Vortek seal, and a solid 720 fps rock and roller, seal unsized.  I think the Vortek seals are the easiest to use, because they are so squishy.  But I have found them large and small, and some so tight on the buttons they won't work.  Jury is out on the longevity, but I have yet to take one down because of an issue.

The best fitting seal I have found for the 97k was the moly seal cup face from Custom Air seals.  They fit real well in the comp tubes and the button in the piston.

Here is a pic of the SGS seal, and Vortek moly seal in the back (black in color),



30mm bullet seal from ARH much like the hornet,





One 97 I tuned, was eating breech seals, and have since polished the breech face on the barrel as many others do removing the lathe marks.  This really helps with longevity of the breech seal.  Keeping an assortment of seals give you many options for sizing.  Blue ones below are from Australia, greens are ARH, and the red ones come from the UK and I believe they use to be called tough core, but I yet to replace as are showing no wear.





http://www.airgunspares.com/store/product/10534/WEIHRAUCH-HW77-%26-HW97-JKI-Breech-Seal-Part-No.-9071JKI/

Jason G

Those red breech seals, that's what I ordered for my 97 because I read that they are a harder material, which I found to be true when they came in. It is holding up very well! The Maccari breech seal failed after 50 pellets and had to be dug out and replaced with the used factory seal which worked fine until my red ones came in from the UK. I ordered a few just to have spares....

[abqjoe]

Last but not least, if it is in your natural capabilities to do certain work to your rifles yourself, then do it!
Happy Shooting!

Jose, if you have as many guns as I do, it's a necessity ... and 1/2 the fun .

I only have 5 air rifles, including my first PCP, but I've owned hundreds of fire arms and learned to work on them myself. Fortunately, some of my closest friends are actually considered to be some of the best gunsmiths and custom gun builders in the world, like my buddy Chuck Warner.... It's nice to have them around to ask questions! Though they don't really pay much attention to air rifles, some gunsmithing is universal in it's theories and principles, and applications....

[Bayman]

My experience with the SHO kit in a97....I think the Vortek Kits are prone to mislabeling. I got a couple from PA, and they were SHO kits, as labeled by the PA sticker, but the tiny instructions had 12 marked rather than SHO. Happened with a d34 also. Never noticed till I chronied it. So check the insert before install to verify the kit.

That's frigging PA. They relabel and make poor substitutions all the time. I could go on a crazy rant about the problems I've had with them sending me the wrong stuff via their substitutions. Then they want you to pay return shipping and charge you a restocking fee because technically its not defective. Ugh! Don't even get me started.

[Chouchin66]

PA's only forgiveness= buy3 get 4th free...
.

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