My HW97K and the real truth about Vortek kits!

[abqjoe]

The story about my HW97K has definitely been a journey! I purchased my HW97K brand new from KRALE on 7/31, received it on 8/4, put 150 pellets through it and then decided I wanted to get it tuned so that I could have it at it's fullest potential.  Because of the many recommendations to use Motorhead, including a recommendation from the guy I was originally going to use, I decided to go with Motorhead. We discussed what I was after and because I was not only using it for target shooting, but also backyard pest control, I needed a full power tune and I needed the rifle to shoot as quietly as possible, making it backyard friendly. I consulted Motorhead, asking his opinion on what I now know to be an age-old question, which is; what's my best option for making the most power? Having you use the factory spring, or a Vortek kit? To which his reply was an astounding "I always get the most power out of using the factory spring". Okay, let's do it!

So, off the rifle went to get tuned around a week after receiving it from KRALE. Now, being very new to Air Guns (only been into them for 4 months now) I was/am extremely trigger happy! Unable to stop thinking about how glorious my HW97K was going to be after receiving it back from Motorhead, I decided to order a Vortek kit for my HW77 just to give tuning a try myself. Plus, I figured for data sake, that this would give me the opportunity to compare the different elements in a tune between the factory spring and the Vortek kit. So, I get the Vortek kit in, tear my 77 down, lightly polish the piston and compression chamber, lightly hone the inside of the compression chamber, and using a small fine file I also did all of the necessary de-burring in the appropriate areas of the rifle. Cleaned everything up and lubed properly (not too much and not too little) and reassembled. I immediately felt the difference in the very first shot and I was immediately impressed with the results of the Vortek kit in my 77! Outstanding power, outstanding accuracy, outstanding consistency, and smooth as bald babies head!

A week or better later I receive a phone call from Motorhead telling me that my rifle is finished and that he's about to ship it out. Said when he received it that it was shooting 690 FPS and now after the tune it was shooting 640 FPS but that it would gain back most of what it lost after it fully breaks in. Cool, I was happy with those numbers! Now, I didn't know what my HW77 that I tuned was shooting because I didn't have a chronograph yet, but I assumed the Motorhead 97k was shooting higher because of what I was told so I was very excited! I get the rifle back, around 2 week after sending it out, unbox it, mount the scope, and set my sticks up in my backyard to start sighting in my HAWKE. Very anxiously I squeeze the trigger for the very first time, and it fires! I immediately notice that it is very smooth, very quiet, and almost no recoil, but, something just didn't seem right. I blew it off and chalked it up to it just needing to be broken in. I dialed in the scope as best I could but ran out of upward elevation clicks. Put 400 pellets through it, the accuracy was there, but all the while I just wasn't impressed and something seemed off, so I parked it in the safe for a while.

A couple of weeks later, Hector Medina made me an offer to send me one of his tuned Diana 56 TH's to test out with the option to buy. Said that the return shipping would be on me, this got me very excited and I said yes to the offer ( I will be writing a review on that rifle next week). At this point, wanting to be thorough in my testing, I realized that I would now have to purchase a chronograph, so I did! I received the chronograph from PA a few days later, set it up, pulled out my Motorhead tuned HW97K as my first rifle to test the chronograph with, and proceeded to send some pellets through the thing. It was then that I discovered what was wrong with the HW97K, which was that it was only shooting at 550 FPS, sub 12 FPE. So I called Motorhead up and told him about what was going on and he said no worries, send it back, that he'd pay for the shipping both ways and warranty it. He got it in, sure enough, was making very low numbers so he began doing what he does as a tuner, which is trying to locate the problem and remedy it.

Well, a few days later Motorhead gives me a call and said that he'd had the rifle apart 4 times that morning trying to figure everything out, and that he'd even tried several different springs to no avail. Said he started doing research and narrowed it down to pellet selection and said that he got it back up to 655 FPS with H&N FTT's. I told him that those were the exact pellets that I had been using all along, also Crossman Premiers. Anyway, I wasn't exactly ecstatic about 655 FPS because I knew that there would be a 50 FPS drop in power once the rifle got back to me at 5360' in elevation, which would put it at around 600 FPS making it a 12 FPE gun which is exactly what I didn't want. I get the rifle back and sure enough, chronoed between 589 and 600 FPS and continued to drop. Within 100 pellets it dropped back down to 550 FPS making it now a 10.5 FPE rifle which is toilet paper to me and my needs. Motorhead said that he did everything he could do so now I'm basically left with not wanting to get angry and just putting my brand new Black and Stainless HW97K that in stock form, shot 690 FPS, back in the safe. I was very disappointed, especially being that the HW77 that I tuned myself was shooting in the low 700's consistently with the same pellets and producing outstanding numbers in the high 15's to low 16's FPE. 

Against much of what I've been told about Vortek kits on the forums, I decided to give much thought to trying a Vortek kit in my HW97K because of the successful results that I got with it in my HW77. Bayman here on the forum told me that they had just released their PG3 High Output kit so I gave Tom at Vortek a call personally to inquire about the kit. I ordered the kit, got the kit, ordered some new breech seals so that I'd have extras. Got the breech seals, touched up the piston and compression chamber with 600 grit wet/dry paper, doing everything to my HW97K that I did to my HW77, and put everything back together a couple of days ago. I shot the my HW97K for the first time yesterday while talking to Bayman on the phone and I could tell just by the way the rifle felt that the velocity was up substantially! Not only did the velocity feel like it was up, but when sighting in the scope with the Motorhead tune w/factory spring, I ran out of upward elevation clicks on the scope and was still 3" low of the mark. With the Vortek kit in, and the velocity being back up, I actually had to go down 25 clicks now to get it on the mark. While on the phone with Bayman, shooting my rilfe, I managed to shoot the two 40 shot groups in the pictures. No fliers and when I set up the chronograph during this first stage of breaking in the gun, the first 3 shots were 700 FPS, 698 FPS, and 696 FPS! We're back in business amigos and my HW97K is starting to become the rifle I had dreamed it would be! Today I went outside, set up the chronograph, and proceeding to chronograph the rifle while continuing the break in process, this rifle just continues to climb in numbers that surpass anything that I had expected! The second to last group in the pictures shows the numbers at around the 150 pellet mark and the last group shows the numbers of the final group of the day! Now I don't know if it's going to continue to hold those high numbers or not once fully broken in, but, I can say that I am finally happy with this rifle after 2 months of having it!

What's the lesson learned here? The lesson learned here is that there is no substitution for actual real life experience with a given thing, and that opinions are only as valid as the hard numbers that support them! The age old question of what makes the best power; factory spring, or Vortek kit is finally answered! With factory spring, at my elevation, 10.5 FPE. With Vortek's new PG3 HO kit 16.5-17.2 FPE! Even with the PG2 15.5-16 FPE. My HW97K is nearing Diana 54 Air King numbers while still maintaining near laser like accuracy!

[DevilsLuck]

Very cool! Maybe have to get a PH3 for my HW77k...

[Yogi]

My HW 50S in .177 with a Motorhead top hat and spring guide shoots smoother than my HW 50S .177 Vortek PG2 kit.  Velocity is about the same...
Go figure

-Y

[abqjoe]

Very cool! Maybe have to get a PH3 for my HW77k...

I can't do anything other than recommend it The factory silencer that Weihrauch makes for the 77 is worth getting to! I have one for mine but because my 77 is the full length barrel I don't use the silencer anymore because it makes the gun to long to put back in the safe.

[abqjoe]

My HW 50S in .177 with a Motorhead top hat and spring guide shoots smoother than my HW 50S .177 Vortek PG2 kit.  Velocity is about the same...
Go figure

-Y

Well, I will say that I do believe the barrel lapping he did on my 97K did improve the accuracy. The accuracy was really good right out of the box but there is a difference between a 5 shot 1 hole group the 2/3 the size of a dime and a 40 shot group the same size, with no fliers,  as shown in the pics He also did a great job with making some baffles to go inside of the factory hollow moderator too. The rifle is pretty quiet, like a 4 out 10 with 10 being factory loud.

[DevilsLuck]

Very cool! Maybe have to get a PH3 for my HW77k...

I can't do anything other than recommend it The factory silencer that Weihrauch makes for the 77 is worth getting to! I have one for mine but because my 77 is the full length barrel I don't use the silencer anymore because it makes the gun to long to put back in the safe.

Where did you get yours from? The only place I’ve seen them is from Krale, and they won’t ship them to the states.

[abqjoe]

Very cool! Maybe have to get a PH3 for my HW77k...

I can't do anything other than recommend it The factory silencer that Weihrauch makes for the 77 is worth getting to! I have one for mine but because my 77 is the full length barrel I don't use the silencer anymore because it makes the gun to long to put back in the safe.

Where did you get yours from? The only place I’ve seen them is from Krale, and they won’t ship them to the states.

PM sent.

[Airnut]

Jose
Very interesting thread!
Hope your vortex PG3 continues to impress!
FWIW I have used Vortex kits with outstanding results in a few different brands.
It’s really got my curiosity as to why the Moterhead tuned gun performed so lackluster??
Scott’s work and experience is impeccable so it’s got to be something freaky going on!

[Stinger177]

Jose

Your story has prompted me to order a PG3 HO kit for an HW30S. All of mine shoot very nicely, but I decided to try a Vortek just to compare with the stock setup. I have two 2016 HW30's with which to do a direct comparison.

Now I have a question though. I recently reassembled a 1970 HW50, which came to me in parts (the ebay seller was about to part out the gun until I convinced him to sell me all the parts as a group). The 50 shoots, but it's much harsher than any of my other HW's. I'll have to investigate it which means going back inside, but I'd rather know ahead of time what to look for and what to change.

My question is, does anyone know if a PG3 SHO Tuning-Kit kit will drop-fit into the 1970 model? And, is the VacSEAL26 worth the additional $15?

[abqjoe]

Jose
Very interesting thread!
Hope your vortex PG3 continues to impress!
FWIW I have used Vortex kits with outstanding results in a few different brands.
It’s really got my curiosity as to why the Moterhead tuned gun performed so lackluster??
Scott’s work and experience is impeccable so it’s got to be something freaky going on!

Idk what caused it, all I know is between the bench time for the service, shipping to and from (twice over there with warranty work) him, that's $300 of my hard earned money that was not refunded. Figure in an additional 100 bucks for the Vortek kit and that puts me in at 400 bucks for a tune on a rifle that was $456 shipped from KRALE. But, as with any hobby, one usually has to pay to play and the best frame of mind is to aspire to learn how to do things yourself! Because nobody is going to care about your property or your money more than you do.

If I had to guess what the problem was, I would have to say that it was the Maccari seals. The Maccari breech seal was complete garbage and tore apart at pellet #50 and I had to dig it out and put the factory one back in. The only thing that he didn't try, from what I was told, was replacing the Maccari piston seal, which, I would have gladly paid for if it would have been presented as an option. That being said, I still have the factory spring with guide rod and top hat that he made and if any of you want it, I will give it too you for free, just pay shipping. Put a new piston seal on and see what happens. I'm not about money, I'm about community and truth..

[abqjoe]

Jose

Your story has prompted me to order a PG3 HO kit for an HW30S. All of mine shoot very nicely, but I decided to try a Vortek just to compare with the stock setup. I have two 2016 HW30's with which to do a direct comparison.

Now I have a question though. I recently reassembled a 1970 HW50, which came to me in parts (the ebay seller was about to part out the gun until I convinced him to sell me all the parts as a group). The 50 shoots, but it's much harsher than any of my other HW's. I'll have to investigate it which means going back inside, but I'd rather know ahead of time what to look for and what to change.

My question is, does anyone know if a PG3 SHO Tuning-Kit kit will drop-fit into the 1970 model? And, is the VacSEAL26 worth the additional $15?

Brother, your best bet would be to call Tom at Vortek direct. He is a very nice guy to talk to and very knowledgeable as well. Just remember, the kit stands alone as quality, but, you will still want to do the necessary 'minor' polishing, light honing, and deburring to compliment the kit. You'll definitely also want to make sure that none of the internals are out of round too.

[EMrider]

Interesting update.  Thanks for taking the time to share these details and glad you now have your hw97k shooting to your desired specs. 

I’ve tried dozens of JM and Vortek kits and no question the Vortek kits are designed to deliver more power.  I often remove spacers or cut a coil to mellow them out a bit and have been pleased with their performance and longevity.  My JM kits do seem to last longer, but in the big picture I don’t really care if one tune kit gives me 30,000 shots and the other gives me 20,000.  I can change a spring in 10 minutes.  The PG2 SHO kit I tried in my hw97k gave me 14fpe with JSB 10.3s and had excellent accuracy.  With spacing I’m guessing power would have been in the 15-16fpe range.

The only Vortek kit that has consistently given me headaches are the hw30 kits.  The ones I’ve tried in my hw97k and pro sport worked well. 

I got a new PG3 kit yesterday for my R7. The included moly vac seal was too big to even fit in the compression chamber.  Not even close.  So I used a brand new Vortek seal from a prior kit and it fit just fine.  Without spacers I got 535-540fps with JSB 8.4s.  Will try again later today with spacing. Hoping for about 600fps. 

R

[Chouchin66]

@ EM Rider, you may be pleasantly surprised... while my kit is the PG2; my R7 is rolling out @ 630-635 w/ 8.44's...+/- 500 shots in...good luck

[Franklink]

In regards to the Motorhead tune, I'd hazard a guess that it was much more pleasant to shoot when he was done with it.

I don't know Motorhead so no skin in the game but I do know, for myself (and many others here on the forum), that it's not all about power with springers. Perhaps he tuned it with that in mind instead of, "how much can I hop this thing up?!?!?!?"

[3 at 8]

Yah, $300 for no real or little return is a hard pill to swallow. Glad you didn't give up and took the initiative to get it were you wanted it to perform. I hear nothing but praises about Motorhead on this forum. Do you think it could have been an anomaly in the physical properties of the factory spring that didn't show up until after he tuned it.

[abqjoe]

In regards to the Motorhead tune, I'd hazard a guess that it was much more pleasant to shoot when he was done with it.

I don't know Motorhead so no skin in the game but I do know, for myself (and many others here on the forum), that it's not all about power with springers. Perhaps he tuned it with that in mind instead of, "how much can I hop this thing up?!?!?!?"

Of course the recoil was down, most of the spring noise was gone, but not all, and the baffles he made worked for reducing the minimal existing muzzle noise. But, the rifle was producing such low numbers that I ran out of upward elevation clicks on my HAWKE and the POI was still 3" below the mark. As far as what a builder tunes for goes, well, that should be determined according to what the paying customer communicates to said tuner and 10.5 FPE nowhere near resembles an acceptable number! With the Vortek kit, ALL of the spring noise is gone, velocity is up and so healthy that I actually had to come down 25 clicks on the elevation, and the accuracy is dead on and consistent! This thread btw, isn't for the purpose of slandering anyone, but is, about my journey with this rifle. Unfortunately, my journey with this rifle contains some not so nice truths and a lot of waisted money that never found it's way back into my bank account. I can't and don't shape the truth, only speak it in all honesty and relay the info and numbers onto the community as a free service so that others have some more food for thought when considering what to spend their money on. I know some people will be offended, but, the truth is what it is in my personal first hand experience and although I wish (and paid for) a different result, this is how the story would go.

[abqjoe]

Yah, $300 for no real or little return is a hard pill to swallow. Glad you didn't give up and took the initiative to get it were you wanted it to perform. I hear nothing but praises about Motorhead on this forum. Do you think it could have been an anomaly in the physical properties of the factory spring that didn't show up until after he tuned it.

I do not and the reason is because he chronoed the rifle in factory form before the tune and it produced 690 FPS, which would have been 640-650 FPS at my elevation. Also, 690 FPS was with only 150 pellets through it so after full break in, at the least, would have produced 700 FPS. The only untouched variable is the Maccari seals. As stated, the Maccari breech seal failed on the 50th shot and the Maccari piston seal was the only rock left unturned during the warranty service. As a Quality Control guy by trade, I have given much thought to every aspect of this by figuring in all of the variables.

[fwbsport]

The real truth!

Well, this was the real truth for you and your situation as you showed, and in my world the real truth hinges around hitting the target without the velocity although reading the velocity numbers from AOA always tell me that the velocities others are getting an their chronographs don't seem to match the Oehler they use there.....oh well! 

So what you are experiencing after 4 months of air rifling is the beginning of an explanation for a hypothesis that still needs testing before declared scientific fact.... .....but to me the world of springers is always a mystery we all STRIVE for EXCELLENCE in!

I read where someone had the option to test and buy one of Hector's rifles and now I wonder if there is an option to buy his ugly old heavy .20 Diana Air King? 

Hector you have the right to say what you want here but I don't have a Diana and it just occurred to me I'd easily like to have yours instead of going somewhere else to get an "unnatural" rifle!

You see all, even though I have mostly HWs not having a really tuned 54 that I've worked with tells me I need MORE time with this rifle....

I do have a couple rifles I'd send to the cause (your cause Hector!) to work with as "unnaturals"  : A Beeman Falcon R-s .25 and a TM 1000 .177--they both need refilling and the TM won't hold air.  If these can be added to the "trial to own" then I'm in! 

I was at 5,500 ft with a 1969 BSF Springer .177 shooting that until the late 70's in Washoe Valley, Nevada.  That was the rifle that lasted forever with thousands of rounds fired over the years without scope and then with scope.  I found a properly cared for decent springer will last a lifetime without any replacement parts and that was the philosophy ingrained in me about the quality of these rifles.  Later in 1980s I met Beeman himself in San Rafael to buy an HW35 E B .177 and that reunited me with air rifles in Seminary in San Anselmo.  From then I never thought about replacing a spring until I came to an air rifle forum later on.  I read and thought maybe I should replace a spring like Kimber's 1911s after every 500 rounds or so.  But I never got around to it and continued focusing on my own needs in an air rifle; which really dictate to me what works for my arena.

[SpiralGroove]

Hey Joe,
From what I understand, High powered Vortek kits can give maximum power at the expense of a harsher shot cycle.  OEM Weihrauch springs give moderate+ power, moderate shot cycle, but their springs don't have the quality many after market springs offer.  AGH tune kits offer better power than OEM, with better shot cycle and spring longevity.  Maccari isn't so concerned about max. power, but will tell you how to achieve it with his springs.  Jim uses larger diameter springs with thicker wire vs. OEM.
High power Vortek kits are concerned with max. power by using smaller diameter, thicker springs.  Smaller diameter springs create more power, with increased cocking force.

Because of your altitude, I believe you want max. power period and have made adjustments for any increased recoil .  If they shoot very accurately for you ......... you're set

[gendoc]

last year, i bought a tuned hw97k .20 from a tuner that said it was as good in power as it gets with the stock spring. so i tried it and it was just like i was shoot'n
a very accurate red-rider ...
contacted vortek about a power spring and other things needed to achieve the
power i needed for hunting.
i had a spring compressor already from doing work on other guns, i did it.
and it became on-fire with the jsb 13gr @ 830fps
it had some punch when you pulled the trigger, but the critters get the impact
of that punch.
now its my goto springer.....wait, its my only springer