Educate me on the best old pumpers

[bubba zanetti]

Tim has the best rants of any forum member

BZ

[gk10]

TimmyMac1,
Thank you for you detailed reply, l think l have an idea what models to look for.
Just to clarify, if a Crosman made 392 has the straight cut between the stock and the pump handle that means that it is decent quality and has a walnut stock?
Regards
George

PS As grim as things look in the US,  at least it still has a real manufacturing base. In Australia we have factories closing their doors every day. Our automotive industry is on its last legs - Ford is due to close in 2016 and GM 3 years later. Seems like everybody here wants to drive an imported car.

[avator]

This one should be on it's way to me today. '72-'78 Crosman 1400. Needs a reseal and a bit of TLC. I prefer the bolts with the knobs as opposed to the collar/sleeve type from the earlier ones.

[TimmyMac1]

TimmyMac1,
Thank you for you detailed reply, l think l have an idea what models to look for.
Just to clarify, if a Crosman made 392 has the straight cut between the stock and the pump handle that means that it is decent quality and has a walnut stock?
Regards
George

I think the Walnut is more desireable in the first place but The quality after the Sycamore was used got worse. To put it mildly the Net can be a dump for stuff that doesn't group. You can also be patient and find someone who will make sure it does shoot well and will take it back if it doesn't. If you are minute of coke can no big deal but if you hit the C in Coke you may be the one who needs to demand a decent shooter. What I tell people is get out and find it local. There is no shipping when you find it. Just driving around to yard, garage, estate, swap, goodwill, salvation army, Pawn and Gun. If you are an airgun nut you will know so much more than most you can see opportunity clear as day. Clean can sometimes mean it was never shot and sometimes it isn't all that much of a shooter. That is pretty rare on anything before 2005. The move to Sycamore was coincident to the alluminum valve, link hardened on ends only, a softer exhaust valve, alluminum front plug and the thinnest link and lever metal to date. SIMPLY PUT "THE OLDER THE BETTER!"
It is the perfect storm for me as about every year made is destined to need some work in the next 5 years. 5, 10, 15 20 and 50 year old guns are all timed out to the same 2020 kill date. I have to love planned obsolecence in that respect. When I get done it will go 100,000 rounds/Million pumps. My stuff is commercial grade and will work like a well lubed & maintained truck. If you do not take care of it it will be needing attention B4 long but if you do your part I will cover it for as long as you do.
TimmyMac1

[Gear_Junkie]

Why does American stuff need to be made Lousy? For Corporate Profit in the SHORT RUN! STUPIDITY by the board with a short term profit perspective rather than a long term sustainable theme.
USA makers need to start looking long term. Shortsightedness is what got the USA manufacturing sector in trouble and the way out is quality. The price needs to be high enough to be profitable making Quality goods smart. We need to realize what we had in the 60's was special and we need to focus on making the teens as good as the 60's was. Dumbing USA made stuff down to be price competitive with the Asian goods will NEVER work because we make far too much per hour to be producing rubbish.
American made should mean something again. It should mean "bring your best so we can show you better!". Airguns by Ruger, Colt, Winchester, Remington, S&W, Beeman, Luepold and Mac1. All Brands that have withstood the test of time but only a few have stayed in the Quality Game. I tried as hard as I could to talk Ruger into helping me make the LD under the Ruger Badge but they didn't want to become an AG company for real. Instead they just wanted to cash in on the Name. American names that have not sold out are few and far between. I find that a huge failure of the American companies due to shortsighted management that resulted in the devastation of the American manufacturing sector.
Long term perspective is never going to come from a board focused on the next 1/4's results. Next decade maybe, but next month, no way.

TimmyMac1

YES - WHAT HE SAID!!!    BEND AN EAR CROSMAN!!!

[Spark Master]

Sounds like a rant, but unfortunately dead on. All the commentary was perfect, and it applies to every thing made here. The only re4ason corporate America has not sold the farm is because it can not be put on a container ship to send to Asia. Air Rifles ae small potato's compared to other manufacturing endeavors, but it is a sign, an omen. They even take our crappy jobs.

I have a Crosman storm XT an elcheapo chinese springer, now I want a new nitro piston, but shooting the XT I finally understand why everyone except a very few commentors say the trigger is   @$#&%^#.

Could they fix it, sure will it add 100 bucks, nope. Subtract out the crappy one add that cost to additional cost , and it maybe adds 20 bucks to the gun. Where does that number come from . Well if Charlie can make his triggers and sell them at 30 dollars crossman can do similar, and if they had any brains they would do that, the up tic in price would be less then 30 bucks. Now people who like the unit as is and endure the &^^& trigger get a nice gun still under 300 bucks and with care will last many years.

But CEO's ae given bonuses by the year, based on many things so this is a multi year issue. CEO's should not make 1000% more then the lowest paid worker. There bonuses shouls be based on time after they leave.

Replacement triggers, there need to be a lawsuit.

When I bought my first new car, if you put in an aftermarket anti theft system, the various companies would then say you voided the warranty. They got away with this for years. Until someone sued. He felt ,I use Legit auto mechanics who are certified to do factory work. WHY DOES THIS VOID A WARRANTY? same should be for air guns. They provide an inferior product based on 1 horrifis easily remied part, and when I replace it, I void the warranty, fair, I think not.

Just before I bought my car I had received a mailing from a local installer, he did 2 things , he installed alarms and stereo's . His mailings were  after the court case telling people about the law suit and explaing the whole thing. He was not the man who installed mine, but after researching the issue I did just that , I went after market, saving more then 50% over dealer price. After all the dealer just marked it up and send the car out. If there were problems I could return to either the dealer or the installer.

sorry for the rant

Thanks guys, there's a few there that l didn't know about and l've now got a list to research.
My original plan was to get him to buy a new Benjamin 392 and get it Sterioded, but the hit a miss nature  of the current quality control has me worried. Is this still worth a go and how long is the Steroid turn around time as l might have to spread it over two of his yearly trips.

Obviously if l can find an early 392 it's an easy option.

I really like the compactness of the 342.

The Crossman really intrigues me as l never knew these even existed and l like it's looks. Are these any good as far as power and build quality as l'm tempted.

Cheers

George

Some good advice being given. The earlier the better when it comes to the .20 cal Dans. The .22 are a different story. The 342's made after 1978 all have the Sheridan internals so the capability for Steroid is there. I feel the nicest set-up is extended Billet Steroid which is $185. The production of the 342 was moved to Racine and the higher sight line of the 342 from Racine meant it could take a Williams peep from '85-89 when the 342 production stopped. The transitional 392's were made with Walnut stocks and they were very good examples of .22 Benjies. Racine 342's are always a great find and all are walnut. The weakness of this platform was the factory Inlet which was prone to getting blown up anytime someone oiled the air inlet. The other .22 version is the new trigger pack 392's made thru about 2004 when they stopped using Walnut and went to the Sycamore wood. I think all the guns with the slanted cut between forearm and butt are all the pallet wood. They certainly fitted a weaker and weaker lever till the levers and links were unuseable for Steroids.
So the more recent the gun the more they will require major parts. The modern gun needs lever, link, front plug, intake and exhaust, custom piston and trigger work bringing the modern guns up to very close to $200 to Steroid. Just make sure the gun is a shooter B4 you decide you want it to last forever. Some are not worthy. The more recent the more likely they will have accuracy issues. The guns made in Racine are almost always good but the After 2013 guns are suspect and the ones made with aluminum valves need that assembly pitched and replaced with Brass.
Steroid turnaround is about 2-3 months on average with the modern guns getting done a little quicker because they are easier to get cleaned up. My tendency is to do Steroids about every other month and when you send it will have a lot more to do with when it comes back in terms of how long it will be after yours arrives that I do a batch.
MY shop set-up is Job shop so when I do a given model I do all of that model and then switch the shop over to another model. Right now I need more parts to do Dans and Benjies so when those arrive the batch will begin. I'll be about 12-14 weeks behind when I start the process and probably more like 4 months by the time I get all the guns done. Guns that show up in the next week or so will maybe make it in this batch and maybe not. I always get way behind this time of year because September is a killer and we get next to no business during that month. I always use it to play catch-up and try to get the total repair work done by the end of September to be ready for holiday demand.
When a gun is 60 years old and we are talking about making it last another 60 a 60 day wait is gonna be the deal breaker for some. It normally isn't when someone has already sampled or owned a Steroid. You can feel the mechanical superiority of the Flex free components creating greater air compression.
It is a far better value to fit better parts so the rebuild will last. As the factory has discontinued key components I have manufactured every one of them in a way that is better or matches the best they ever did. THis is all about the fact that Planned obsolescence is STUPID! Making Parts that will fail in short order is what Board rooms come up with because they are ignorant of what the American consumer wants.
They want to turn the clock back to when stuff could take a lickin' and keep on tickin'.
The consumer wants to find the old Dan or Benjy in the Folks attic and bring it back to its former glory or find a like model and do it to that.
Babyboomers can afford and definitely want their gun back they had in their youth. Making it better than  ever is the theme we see time and time again. Just like I restored the Racing Triumph I rode to College in the 70's people want to bring back pieces of there world that brought great joy and memories of hunting with the Multi pumps. For me the trips to the Canyons to shoot AG's with my cousins are great memories never to be forgotten.
One of the projects inspired by that time was the QB which I did for Shanghai Airgun in 1991 which is the copy of the Sears 160 I shot when I was a kid. That became the 2 decade long best seller for them and put them in a position to OWN the Beeman Brand. That is the ultimate measure of Chinese success when the maker takes ownership of the US distribution company. CheckMate based on Quality while the USA pencil pushers push quality down to help the Chinese along. What is wrong with this picture?
Why does American stuff need to be made Lousy? For Corporate Profit in the SHORT RUN! STUPIDITY by the board with a short term profit perspective rather than a long term sustainable theme.
USA makers need to start looking long term. Shortsightedness is what got the USA manufacturing sector in trouble and the way out is quality. The price needs to be high enough to be profitable making Quality goods smart. We need to realize what we had in the 60's was special and we need to focus on making the teens as good as the 60's was. Dumbing USA made stuff down to be price competitive with the Asian goods will NEVER work because we make far too much per hour to be producing rubbish.
American made should mean something again. It should mean "bring your best so we can show you better!". Airguns by Ruger, Colt, Winchester, Remington, S&W, Beeman, Luepold and Mac1. All Brands that have withstood the test of time but only a few have stayed in the Quality Game. I tried as hard as I could to talk Ruger into helping me make the LD under the Ruger Badge but they didn't want to become an AG company for real. Instead they just wanted to cash in on the Name. American names that have not sold out are few and far between. I find that a huge failure of the American companies due to shortsighted management that resulted in the devastation of the American manufacturing sector.
Long term perspective is never going to come from a board focused on the next 1/4's results. Next decade maybe, but next month, no way.
As for output FPE .20 is going to max out at 22FPE and the .22 maxes out at over 25FPE and a lot more heavy pellets to choose from than .20 cal.

TimmyMac1

[Pellet Fun]

Great original question and incredible replies. I can see where those with experience can readily identify many of the quality used AG's. But being a newbie has its drawbacks. I am curious if there are date and or serial numbers on many of the older rifles that could help in identification. From the response I kinda doubt there are numbers and it's more a knowledge thing?
Thanks in advance,
Gary

[cclingma]

I'm going to throw out a thought on this and see what the pros say.  I believe if it's a Benjamin or a Sheridan and the trigger guard is not cast, so just bent steel, it's a good gun.  Some cast trigger guard guns are great too but bent metal guard is a sure thing.

[Rob112o]

I'm going to throw out a thought on this and see what the pros say.  I believe if it's a Benjamin or a Sheridan and the trigger guard is not cast, so just bent steel, it's a good gun.  Some cast trigger guard guns are great too but bent metal guard is a sure thing.

You know this is something that always makes me wonder. Ok here is a thought...maybe when these old school Sheridan and Benjamin's first came out. The people of the day thought "man these triggers are terrible, nothing like my old rifle" (whatever they had prior too). Now after thousands and thousands of rounds and wear we are getting their guns and they are great. Now we get a new Crosman 392 and are thinking "man these triggers are terrible, nothing like my 312."
 So after several decades and thousands of rounds, you think they will become great???  I didn't want to wait that long so I've done work in my trigger assembly.

[Rob112o]

Either way I'm hoping the 90's era 397P's are as good as my 312. I have one on its way from 2hrs away. We probably shoulda drove to do the trade, but cause of my MPG and stupid ole toll bridge it costs more to drive then just ship our rifles.

[Pellet Fun]

Crosman made many different high quality blued steel and wood 22 caliber guns from the 1920's to 1980 or so.

http://www.crosman.com/discover/crosman/crosman-product-dates

I went back through the thread and realized what I was interested in was already provided within the Crosman link.

[longhunter]

Either way I'm hoping the 90's era 397P's are as good as my 312. I have one on its way from 2hrs away. We probably shoulda drove to do the trade, but cause of my MPG and stupid ole toll bridge it costs more to drive then just ship our rifles.

You're going to love it. I have a 1993 392P. I call it the tank. The wrist of the stock is alittle bit thicker than I like, but hey, I can live with that.

[cclingma]

That 397 looks like a dandy example of a pumper.

[Rob112o]

Thanks, I'm hopping it shoots as nice as it looks. I'm not a big fan of the 2 different colored stock. It's a 95 by the way. If it shoots well I think this will be the one I'd like to scout mount.
Question, does the Sheridan Clamp mounts work for the 397's? It works on the 392 and the blue, but this is my first .177 so I'm not sure.

[longhunter]

All the barrels are the diameter. The mounts will work.

[Rob112o]

All the barrels are the diameter. The mounts will work.

Thanks Scott, you the man!

[james]

Crosman 1377 and 1322 pistols are rated at 600 and 500 fps respectively and can be customized out the wazoo.Stocks are available longer barrels etc.

[TimmyMac1]

Thanks, I'm hopping it shoots as nice as it looks. I'm not a big fan of the 2 different colored stock. It's a 95 by the way. If it shoots well I think this will be the one I'd like to scout mount.
Question, does the Sheridan Clamp mounts work for the 397's? It works on the 392 and the blue, but this is my first .177 so I'm not sure.

The early .177 caliber guns or BB (347, 340, 310 & 317) do have smaller diameter than the .20 and .22 of the same era. All the 390 series and Every year .20 and .22 have the .350": diameter barrel. The Sheridan Clkamp mount is a pretty poor fit and I feel it has limited use as delivered because it isn'ty that strong. If you glue it in place it can be useful. The IA base with costs 3 times as much ios dead solid and grabs the barrel anywhere along the length. It candilevers over the breech for proper rifle scope eye relief or can hold a pistol scope mid barrel(scout style). Nothing is stronger I've seen.

http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/product-p/iashba.htm

TimmyMac1

[Rob112o]

   I'm definitely gonna need one of them for one of my Blue Streaks, Tim. I'm gonna need Christmas to come quick and in a hurry. I'll put it on my wish list to the wife. The 95 397P is drilled for a peep so the scout mount I put on may just be temporary.

[lillysdad621]

I would have to vote for the old town & countries... classy and beautiful