Effect of Various Error Factors on Accuracy

[Oldblades]

should be shooting better than that.  The truth is that outdoors the wind is always moving.  If you want to shoot tiny groups, even from a bench, you better be shooting in a consistent breeze or no breeze at all.

I don't feel so bad now limiting myself to the far end of my PB zero, which on most of my guns is about 40 yards.

A established BR rimfire shooter told me years ago that there is no such thing as 'no breeze'. You just cant see it messing with you.
That explained why 'Calm' conditions give me fits.
Adding complacency to the mix, because of such conditions, usually amounted to a whole lotta frustration.

 

[michaelthomas]

Bob.....this was the old thread where I first became aware of  the claim that sub MOA with a pellet rifle was surely quite doable on a regular basis.  Most notably this claim was from Baxter.  http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=83770.0

It's also where you mentioned the 5 groups of 5 under a dime.  I believe I have seen 3 people do it here.  I think Joe P did it with a springer, pyroboy with a cricket?, and myself with my bench gun.  I  posted in the same thread my result which was with a 12ftlb rifle at 55 yards.  As a side note.....if anyone asks me if I can shoot sub MOA at 50 yards with any regularity.....I tell them, no. I can't even do it 90% of the time at 25m in the wind.

Baxter......nobody is looking down on you for not wanting to compete.  The stuff that you claim to be able to do with ease is WAAAY beyond the ability of even the most seasoned professional in any air rifle shooting discipline.  People take the time to actually prove that what you claim you can do is largely attributed  to luck, because the main factors that govern your success are beyond your perception and control......but you still insist that all you need to do is know your equipment and write everything down.  If you said, "I think I can shoot sub MOA at 50 or 100 yards every now and then", nobody would disagree with you......but nobody would be too impressed, either.  To the best of my knowledge, you have not been able to prove sub MOA at 50 yds with any regularity beyond luck......so 100 or 150 yards and beyond with any regularity is nonsense.   I have personally witnessed you shooting 50yds at Joes for many hours on several occasions with nothing decent to show for it......let alone sub MOA at 50 with any regularity.   Several of us have watched you through our scopes.....so I don't want to hear about how you weren't trying.  We know what someone sighting in a rifle looks like....and you weren't doing that.   That takes 3 or 4 shots off a bag.....not hours.  It's not our first BBQ.  When someone boasts about their shooting abilities......we like to check it out. 

OldBlades....when you actually get a true calm condition that will persist.....nothing funny will happen.  Like right before dark.  Its the lulls between the breezes that will kill you.

Mike

[Bill G]

partial quote from Bob

"It is interesting to note that .22 LR target ammunition (Eley Tenex 1055, one of the best in the world) has a ES of only about 25 fps over a box of 50 shells, which is 2.5%.... That translates into a vertical dispersion at 50 metres of 1mm per 3.9 fps, which means that over a box of 50, the vertical dispersion at 50 metres is 1/4".... Thinking that we need to have (or can achieve over 50 shots) an ES of less than 2% may be wishful thinking, mixed with theory and some VooDoo thrown in.... "

Yea, I take a bloody chickens foot and a cigar to the range with me while wearing feathers around my head(wind estimator)   Oh and some of that puffer fish powder.. you know so when the observers come around I just tell them what they missed

I have personally shot many of those youtube hero shots myself, but would never deem them worth a video simply because they are, well....... Luck.  In the realm of things anyway.  I have shot 1 1/8 group with my marauder at a distance of 100 yrds...... once!  done several 2"+ groups and obviously A LOT worse other times.  The guys that I shoot with think that I a great shot but I here to tell that ain't the case.  I've shot small game with that Marauder out to 115 yrs with a first shot kill.  Had to use the Whole scope, and was fortunate that it was a head wind on a very calm summer evening here in Kentucky.  How did I hit that rabbit on a first shot?  TRP  (target reference point)  In the area that I shoot I have places that I have predetermined the distance, from certain locations and even shot at to have a very firm idea as to the performance at that Know distance.  I know and understand the game trails and essentially ambush the game or pest.  Know the animal and it routines I guess.  I suppose it is a pre determined engagement based solely upon whether or not the creature has a habit.  Very Key to success IMO.

Bob, VERY good analyses. 

Bill     

[Bwalton]

Lol Mike you been there one time and that was the time that the bolt that held the stock to the action was broken, I can pull up the tread you are funny.... Matter of fact here is the thread and there are plenty of ppl that shoot with me on a regular basis. I do not have to lie to kick it so to speak. When you were at Joes one time my rifle was broken and I did not know until I went home and took it apart because I knew there was something wrong. And no I was not sighting in the rifle I was trying to figure out what was wrong with the rifle....

And here is the thread, so the shooting that you were seeing is the results of this, I told you that also that there was some thing wrong with it, but I guess you did not believe me on that also oh well, So you are wrong about that day too. Mike I have nothing to prove if you say its luck then just call me Baxter the lucky...I have more then enough ppl that shoot with me on a regular besides filming my groups also. Can I do 5 for 5 I think so, I tried one time when the winds were 9mph or so and have not tried since...But thats not my thing. Am I a good shot? I would like to think so.
Also Mike you were at Joes once when I was there? So where is this  and I quote "several occasions "? When I go to Joe's 90% of the time we are on the 200yard range? So what dates are you speaking of that you were at Joe's 7 times or so? You are not being truthful? You wre there in March? what other time were you there and I was there shooting?

Thread:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=84865.msg816245#msg816245

[Sfttailrdr46]

13- Personal attacks on individual airgunners, dealers, tuners or other airgun forums are strictly forbidden. If you have issues with them, then they should be addressed one on one.  Do not create a “war zone” on your forum. Take your issues up directly with them and do not launder them here on the GTA forums.

[Bwalton]

Don I agree 100%

[rsterne]

Michael.... My apologies to you and pyroboy, I must have missed your 5 in a dime, 5 times posts.... You have joined a very small, and select group of shooters.... So far, I have never even come close (only 2 groups out of 5 under a dime at 50 yards)....

As I said before, my hat's off to anyone who can consistently shoot MOA at 100 yards off the bench with Diabolo pellets.... and I would be in awe of anyone who could just do it at will, at unknown range, on the first shot.... even 50% of the time.... Second shots don't count, you collect soooooooooooo much information with the first miss, a followup is easy by comparison....

Bob

[MicErs]

Don I agree 100%

I've watched your videos on YouTube.... Check my comments there.  No attack here but you do understand that sound travels at a certain rate, pellets travel at a different rate, and anyone who can do the math can measure the range?

That said, I'm down with thanking Bob, for the brilliant analysis he gave us at the top of the thread.

[MicErs]

I must have missed your 5 in a dime, 5 times posts....
Bob

LOL, Bob, it is hard to do that at 25 yards for me.  Lots of folks think they can, until they try.

[Bwalton]

Don I agree 100%

I've watched your videos on YouTube.... Check my comments there.  No attack here but you do understand that sound travels at a certain rate, pellets travel at a different rate, and anyone who can do the math can measure the range?
I do not understand what you are trying to say? That the range that the 2015 Nationals will be held at in September is at the wrong distance? or that my Bushnell Elite Arc Range finder is incorrect?

[MicErs]

I've watched your videos on YouTube.... Check my comments there.  No attack here but you do understand that sound travels at a certain rate, pellets travel at a different rate, and anyone who can do the math can measure the range?

If I have a video, shot in real time, I have everything I need to know, with a high degree of accuracy,  how far the target was from the shooter.

[Bwalton]

lol I have heard it all lol

[MicErs]

Michael.... My apologies to you and pyroboy, I must have missed your 5 in a dime, 5 times posts....

Bob, what is the flight time of a .257 bullet shot at 1050 ft/sec to 82 yards?  Just curious and I know you can get that information faster than I can, and a millisecond here or there doesn't matter.

[rsterne]

No idea what the BC is, but assuming the bullet loses no velocity at all, 82 yards is 246 ft., so at 1050 fps that would take 0.234 sec.... Maybe 1/4 second?....

EDIT: If the BC is 0.100, the time of flight to 82 yards is 0.254 sec.... At NTP, the speed of sound is 1116 fps, so the time the sound would take to get to 82 yards is 0.220 sec.... the sound arriving only 34 milliseconds before the bullet....

Bob

[michaelthomas]

Baxter....the first time I met you at Joes in person was in January.  The second time was in March. 

Mike 

[Bwalton]

Baxter....the first time I met you at Joes in person was in January.  The second time was in March. 

Mike

Mike I just showed up to look I did not bring any thing to shoot as you said that you would be back in March...Thats the only time I brought rifle. Far from 7 or more times...After that you said that you did not know when you would be back, and I have not seen you since. I think that you are a very nice guy as always.

[MicErs]

No idea what the BC is, but assuming the bullet loses no velocity at all, 82 yards is 246 ft., so at 1050 fps that would take 0.234 sec.... Maybe 1/4 second?....

I'm thinking anyone watching a video could probably notice a quarter second difference between the shot and the impact???  Longer ranges more noticeable lag...

Of course videos are shot at some number of frames a second, so if someone were so inclined, they could establish the number of actual frames between the shot being fired and the impact of the shot, if someone were so inclined...

[Bwalton]

No idea what the BC is, but assuming the bullet loses no velocity at all, 82 yards is 246 ft., so at 1050 fps that would take 0.234 sec.... Maybe 1/4 second?....

I'm thinking anyone watching a video could probably notice a quarter second difference between the shot and the impact???  Longer ranges more noticeable lag...

Of course videos are shot at some number of frames a second, so if someone were so inclined, they could establish the number of actual frames between the shot being fired and the impact of the shot, if someone were so inclined...

Or they could just do it the ez way....trust
 I do not see the benefit to deceive? 

[MicErs]

No idea what the BC is, but assuming the bullet loses no velocity at all, 82 yards is 246 ft., so at 1050 fps that would take 0.234 sec.... Maybe 1/4 second?....

I'm thinking anyone watching a video could probably notice a quarter second difference between the shot and the impact???  Longer ranges more noticeable lag...

Of course videos are shot at some number of frames a second, so if someone were so inclined, they could establish the number of actual frames between the shot being fired and the impact of the shot, if someone were so inclined...

Or they could just do it the ez way....trust
 I do not see the benefit to deceive?

This bowl of olives just rock... The greeks had something there... but ...

Pride I think.  Pride is the benefit.

They could just trust.  You are right.  It is foolish to deceive people, to pretend to be something you are not, to pretend to accomplish things you have not accomplished.  I could not agree with you more.

I mean, I can't shoot worth a flip so, you know maybe I could be tempted to tell stories about what I can do.... but yeah I totally agree with you...

[michaelthomas]

Nope... You shot.  The first time you showed up to check things out was before that....and I spoke to you on Doug Millers phone while you were there.

I said nothing about seven times....I don't know where you are getting that.....although I have been there six times since last September.

Mike