Effect of Various Error Factors on Accuracy

[michaelthomas]

This subject is particularly interesting to me.....and I enjoy Bob's analytical approach to the study of these factors.

The biggest reason that it's interesting to me is because I make my living building and shooting benchrest air rifles.  I get to interact with the best competitive shooters from all over the world.  The biggest difference I see between the competitive shooters and the forum shooters is perspective.  On the forums.....a great 3-5 shot group sets you apart.  In competition, it takes 75 shots each placed at a particular point.  None of the competitive shooters I know carry around cut out sections of targets showing their best 3-5 shots in a row.....because that is meaningless in a game where you have to shoot the best 75 to win. 

The other interesting thing to me is that its actually kind of rare for someone to shoot a single (25 shots) card outdoors at 25m and maintain sub moa accuracy.  That's right......25m.  I'm speaking of the best competitive benchrest shooters in the world.....including the South African teams where 25m benchrest is managed and treated like an Olympic event. 

Could it be that there are a bunch of guys that are capable of shooting sub MOA at 100+ yards consistently.....but none of them have ever found their way into competitive shooting?

What are the odds that these mythical forum shooters are capable of doing something roughly 16 times (wind drift alone) more difficult than the best competitive 25m benchrest shooters in the world ......without wind flags, the benefit of a known distance, a stable platform from which to shoot, and the best equipment that money can buy?  I have no idea.....but maybe someone can put some numbers to that. 

Mike

[Ribbonstone]

I'll give you that too.  Nothing is better for learning to shoot in the wind than shooting in the wind.  Dealing with the wind when hunting is so much more difficult than when target shooting.  Hunting, you don't often have the option of just watching and waiting for the wind to get arranged in a sensible pattern that matches the last sensible pattern.  Hunting, you are shooting at various angles to the wind.

Honestly...past a certain wind condition, I just go fishing.

[Oldblades]

Honestly...past a certain wind condition, I just go fishing.

I'm probably a little odd as I look to shoot in the wind at 25y with a airgun, just trying to learn.  After 10mph at 25y, POI gets bewildering according to the flag, so I bag it also since its past my pay grade at that point.

Like michaelthomas mentions, theres always going to be the 'keyboard shooters' on any forum.
But they are only hindering there own advancement by kidding themselves (IMO) by posting a single target thats been blown up so much you can see the paper fibers.
 Folks like Ribbonstone will post the whole card which validates the real world, in which I take note of and respect.

 

[Ribbonstone]

Have gone out on the back side of a passed hurricane and plinked spoiled grapes on golf tees when the wind was whipping (variably) up to 60-65MPH (the hurricane had definitely comminted to a strike west of me and was on shore, moving fast).  AMAZING how much that kind of wind force shoves a pellet left or right.

But because there was no rush (no work, no power, non 'nothing) could wait for the little lull between gusts and just nail the grapes.  Am sure, if the grapes were alive, some time in that wait for a lull, they'd have flittered off unshot.

[rsterne]

As Michael knows, I have tremendous respect for him, and all benchrest shooters.... They are the true artists, IMO.... Well them and Harry Pope!.... One of my hopes in posting this thread was to make people realize just how hard it is to do some of the things talked about on this Forum (and others).... I have seen some fine groups, and shot a few myself that were pretty cool.... and then followed it up with one that wasn't so cool, in fact pretty embarrassing.... That is just the nature of airguns, and ones shooting Diabolo pellets in particular.... add even a breath of wind, so slight that you didn't notice, and you get those unexplained "fliers" that in fact can often be explained pretty easily....

The benchrest shooters, and in fact all those punching holes in paper targets at known ranges, have one big advantage over a hunter.... They KNOW the range, or at least know where to hold to hit the target at the range they are at, after a few shots downrange.... That takes away the second most important reason for error, the change in drop if you are only off a yard or two on your range estimate (or measurement).... When varmint hunting, any time the range looks to be past my "point blank hold" distance (which is about 45 yards), I use a laser rangefinder.... It's a Bushnell, one of the ones designed for archery, and allows for uphill and downhill shots, which is great.... but there are two problems in using it.... One is holding it steady enough, I am seriously considering mounting it on an old gunstock so that I can keep the circle on the target.... The other is repeatability, and sometimes even getting a reading at all.... When you try and range a Ground Squirrel at 80-100 yards, on a grassy field, it may take 10-20 tries just to get a reading at all, I'm guessing the laser beam is just bouncing off downrange, without finding a big enough object to reflect off.... Sometimes I have to use a nearby rock or tree to get a reading, and then try and guess the difference in distance from that to my quarry.... Of course it only reads to the nearest yard, and it's not unusual to get several readings a few yards different.... I figure I'm lucky to get the range to my target within plus or minus 2% on average, so that means I'm working with a 3" difference in height of impact at 100 yards.... Fortunately, my varmint rifles are all regulated, and have only about a 1-1.3% ES (10-12 fps) over an entire fill, so realistically the inaccurate ranging is all I have to worry about vertically (well, that and how well I can shoot).... Add in a bit of wind, and I'm extremely lucky (yes, lucky) to connect on the first shot at 100 yards, in fact I have more first shot misses than hits past about 85 yards....

There is no question that lots of targets, animate and otherwise, are hit by guys with airguns at 100 yards plus.... I would love to HONESTLY hear how many of those are on the first shot, without shooting at something nearby to get the range and windage.... or watching how much you missed by the first time and then making the correction for the second (or third, or fourth) shot....

Bob

[Sfttailrdr46]

This subject is particularly interesting to me.....and I enjoy Bob's analytical approach to the study of these factors.

The biggest reason that it's interesting to me is because I make my living building and shooting benchrest air rifles.  I get to interact with the best competitive shooters from all over the world.  The biggest difference I see between the competitive shooters and the forum shooters is perspective.  On the forums.....a great 3-5 shot group sets you apart.  In competition, it takes 75 shots each placed at a particular point.  None of the competitive shooters I know carry around cut out sections of targets showing their best 3-5 shots in a row.....because that is meaningless in a game where you have to shoot the best 75 to win. 

The other interesting thing to me is that its actually kind of rare for someone to shoot a single (25 shots) card outdoors at 25m and maintain sub moa accuracy.  That's right......25m.  I'm speaking of the best competitive benchrest shooters in the world.....including the South African teams where 25m benchrest is managed and treated like an Olympic event. 

Could it be that there are a bunch of guys that are capable of shooting sub MOA at 100+ yards consistently.....but none of them have ever found their way into competitive shooting?

What are the odds that these mythical forum shooters are capable of doing something roughly 16 times (wind drift alone) more difficult than the best competitive 25m benchrest shooters in the world ......without wind flags, the benefit of a known distance, a stable platform from which to shoot, and the best equipment that money can buy?  I have no idea.....but maybe someone can put some numbers to that. 

Mike

I think you are spot on the average shooter has an entirely different perspective and it is exceedingly more difficult to repeat 75 perfect shots off of a front bag or shooting sticks sitting on a bucket. Competitive bench rest shooting is a world of its own and relies much more on the science than other forms of competitive shooting being discussed here.

[Bwalton]

I found it not to be rocket science, but knowing your gun and wind and what the pellet will do, now that gets you halfway there....I have competed all my life in hobbies from Rc onroad racing, RC Nitro Tunnel racing, and Slot car racing, not your toys or us stuff either, slot car set-ups for just the controller will cost you $500 and the car motors will cost you around 2-$400 same with the boats and RC onroad 1/8 and 1/10scale cars. Th funny thing is my mind is just tiered of competing cause I get so deep into it where it becomes no fun for me but rater personal so I stopped doing so. Hunting is challenging and competing against yourself to do better, no pressure involved, just fun. I get so excited when I am at the range and when I have written down in my notes or field card comes to live in the field! Every thing that I do is recorded, no room for wondering. My many of my 100yard plus hits in the field are done with one shot as you will see when this last hunting video will be posted. But at the same time I am better with a friend with me that can tell me exactly which way the wind is blowing and where the pellet will drop on impact. When I shoot sub moa groups, it is not ez at all. Even if you have a accurate rifle, that is just the first part of the equation....It takes a large part of knowing and concentration also. Some thing that I do not want to do for a full day lol on every shot! for 75 shots...Hunting you have various ranges which keeps it interesting, along with various conditions.
  Bob your write up is great! It is very hard to shoot accurate out to 100yards, and 150 plus with ONE SHOT is likely of you know your stuff and have it all written down..other then that like Bob said just a lot of luck.

[Motorhead]

All contributing to this thread have presented solid and factual information IMO, Those nice 5-10 shot targets many share are indeed special and shot with great skill too !

Along side the somewhat if not honestly ANAL world of competitive bench rest is the equally challenging world of Field Target.
In the FT game we get NO Sighter shots, No Flags, No pre known distances, Elevation pitch changes too 
What the FT game does is make 100% reliance to your gun, it power and trajectory, ability to range distances,
Read the wind and correct for elevation / pitch SOLELY in the shooters lap !!!

You enter a shooting lane and get either 1 or 2 shots at a target and must ascertain Kill zone size, distance away, hold correction required, read and dope the wind AFTER taking up your shooting position.   And do so generally in 2 min or less time.

Just sharing another AG game only played by a small minority who own air guns ... Try it, you may LOVE IT !

Wish to get a real challenge shooting an Air Rifle ? .... Give Field target a try 

[Sfttailrdr46]

  Scott, That's where the magic comes into play. Knowing your personal skills and equipment is of the utmost importance then having yourself tuned into the environment is the actual magic part because to read the little ques takes time to learn

[michaelthomas]

Bob....the respect is certainly mutual.

Scott....I am totally with you concerning your summation of field target.  It's a really tough discipline that takes a great deal of things coming together to make it work. 

In your opinion......If all of the field target killzones were 1 MOA.....what kind of kill percentage do you think the best FT shooters in the world could achieve?   

Mike

[rsterne]

I would say it would greatly depend on whether the 1 MOA would allow for half the diameter of the pellet beyond the C-T-C diameter.... ie at 55 yards, would the hole in the target be 1.047 x 0.55 = 0.576", or that plus 0.177" = 0.753"..... From what I understand, the typical target aperature at that range (the maximum for FT) is 1.5-1.75".... ie slightly over 2 MOA for a .177 pellet, measured C-T-C....

Bob

[michaelthomas]

Bob, I'm talking 1 MOA plus .177.

I posed the same question to a friend who shoots FT (and happens to be the current Open FT National champ), and he said he would be lucky to shoot 25%. 

FT uses a Troyer rating scale for course comparison, and National level courses are around 36-40.  The raw Troyer number is distance in Yards/Killzone in in.  If the distance is over 40 yards, a 1.125 correction factor is applied.  So the 1 MOA 55 yard target would be 55/.753x1.125....so roughly 82 Troyer, and that is not counting any other multipliers that may apply.   http://www.airgunnation.com/topic/troyer-scale-chart-pic-graph/

FT most closely resembles hunting in every way that it can......but only out to 55 yards....lol 

I guess these guys just don't know their equipment very well.   

Mike

[SpiralGroove]

Hey Guys,
Great information from all Shooting World, Perspectives   However, let's refrain from Posturing and Pounding our chests .
Kirk

[rsterne]

I think Michael was being sarcastic, I'm sure he has the utmost respect for FT shooters, as I do....

Bob

[Motorhead]

I think Michael was being sarcastic, I'm sure he has the utmost respect for FT shooters, as I do....

Bob

Indeed Michael was jabbing in fun !!
Have little doubt that with a capable FT rig in his hand on a difficult FT course he would be just as humbled as the rest of us self proclaimed crack shots  ... lol

[michaelthomas]

Not poking fun at any FT shooters.....for sure.  I'm very respectful of their sport and it's requirements. 

Most of my benchrest friends shoot FT, too.

I'm pointing out that the best FT shooters and the best BR shooters in the world cannot consistently shoot sub MOA at distances much, much shorter than the mystical youtube heroes of the forums. 

Isn't it crazy how none of this magical talent ever makes its way into competitive venues?  How can that be?

Mike





 

[rsterne]

A couple of years ago, on another Forum, I suggested a friendly challenge.... The goal is to shoot five consecutive 5-shot groups at 50 yards, outdoors, each of which can be covered completely with a dime.... I made the same challenge here about a year ago, and in all that time I have seen it done just ONCE.... with a Springer, no less.... There is no shooting for score, but there can only be 25 shots on the paper, in five 5-shot groups, with no other holes, and nothing covered up.... For a .22 cal, this is almost exactly MOA when measured C-T-C, a little bigger for .177, and a little less for .25 cal.... but I figured that since the larger the caliber the less affected by the wind it would even out the theoretical advantage of the larger calibers.... making it fair for everyone....

Doing it once is not too hard.... but doing it five times in a row is a different story.... So, all you guys who claim you can shoot 1/2" groups at 50 yards all day, step up and prove it.... The honour system applies, all you need submit for proof is a clear photo or scan of your target paper, with a circle drawn tight around a dime with a sharp pencil or ball-point pen around each group....

Bob

[MicErs]

I would rate your ability to connect on the first shot to be first of all affected by the wind, secondly by an accurate determination of the range, and lastly by the ES....

What a great summary of your original post.  Great analysis, Bob.

Thank you ... I don't often read a thread from top to bottom but I did read this one top to bottom ...  I really appreciate the honesty I've read here.  I have struggled with my Diana's and sometimes even my Lonestar to shoot consistent nickle sized groups at 25 yards on my outdoor range.  I shoot the occasional dime sized group, often shoot nickle sized groups but I thought I should be shooting better than that.  The truth is that outdoors the wind is always moving.  If you want to shoot tiny groups, even from a bench, you better be shooting in a consistent breeze or no breeze at all.

I don't feel so bad now limiting myself to the far end of my PB zero, which on most of my guns is about 40 yards.

[Bwalton]

Yes thats too bad that some people like to hunt and not shoot competitively....Which me myself have absolutely no interest in doing any kind of competition shooting, not why I got back into air guns, nor never will...I know what it takes to compete competitively in many things. Hats off to you guys that do, but for me its a been there done that deal. I think that respect has to given to those in all those in the air gun community. BR, FT, Hunters no one is better then the next.. When I raced RC boats the inboard guys did not like the outboard guys, but we were all boaters.... Even though I have made my mark in the sport it left a bad taste in my mouth. So I avoid all competitive hobbies.  I tune my rifles to shoot the best that they can, and call it a day. If ppl want to make youtube videos good for them.....thats there thing. I dont think that it is something to look down on because a person have no interest to compete? I think that everyone can enjoy each and every aspect of the hobby. I know of a lot of ppl that are better then pro players of today that do not want to play the sport any more, Take Barry Sanders for example, Football was not fun to him any more so he stopped playing, Does that make all the other players that are still playing better then him? I think not. I do not think that you have to compete to prove you abilities, In fact I don't that anyone should have anything to prove. Thats where things go wrong..

[Motorhead]

Beauty of the shooting sports ... we shoot against our self with getting better or worse a personal journey we each take on.  Sure there's scoring involved, but come end of the day it starts and ends with the individual.