*Poll* High Quality 6.35mm Air Rifle - PCP vs Pumper

[Bryan Heimann]

I can't stand the tethered bottles.  I don't expect lines like a daystate huntsman, but it ought to look at least some what like a sporter and handle somewhat nicely.  What's the point of having a gun with an on board pump if it looks and handles like you just tethered and strapped a pump to it.  Might as well just put a rifle sling on a regular pump to make it easier to carry!  It's worth putting time and effort into making tbe gun look clean.  Just my 2 cents

[CarsonRatSniper]

We're talking 2 different guns here...the Pumper will *not* be a regulated gun.

There's an interest in a regulated PCP using Airgun Labs Double Tube Kit...

One is the Millennium Pumper and the other is the Millennium PCP.

[cclingma]

I'm suffering from a little more confusion concerning the pumper.  This may stem from me reading about your other future designs but here goes.  Will the pumper have two tubes like a Disco double or will it look like Bobs original Millenium pumper?  Seems Ive been reading about the stock needing modified like a Disco double but it looks like it would only need cut to provide a pump handle and drilled/milled to accept pump arm?

[CarsonRatSniper]

It will be a single tube just like Bobs original...*basically* needing the stock cut but will need some additional inletting for a 16 gram CO2 bulb like he built his Carbine Pumper with.
Its a blend of both guns Bob built to add some more internal volume to make larger calibers viable...there's a 'ceiling' we hit for practicality though so the pumper will have a max caliber it will hit with its design platform.

Mike

[aom22]

From my understanding there were two versions of the Millennium pumper being discussed.
The majority of comments revolved around the "basement model" resterne had originally referred to ... single-tube.

Even a "basement model" ....  (T)the Millennium Pumper from the outset was designed to retain air in the valve like a PCP does, with the valve closing long before the pellet reaches the muzzle....
This conserves air and allows a followup shot, or even up to 3 shots within a very narrow (4%) velocity range, depending on how it is tuned....
The check valve is installed quite a bit in front of the valve, creating a valve chamber of about 28cc (about 1/4 the size of the Disco reservoir), compared with about 4 cc in a 392....
That means a lot more pumps to fill it, of course, but a much more efficient design.... Bob

That is the version Mike ... now ... affirms will be the Millennium pumper to be produced.

It will be a single tube just like Bobs original...*basically* needing the stock cut but will need some additional inletting for a 16 gram CO2 bulb like he built his Carbine Pumper with.
Its a blend of both guns Bob built to add some more internal volume to make larger calibers viable... Mike

However, Mike ... if, ever so briefly ... also, made mention of another pumper concept:  ".25 Challenger Double Tube  - it only works as a Reverse Pumper."
Same Millennium operating principles except the 16gram CO2 bulb would be replaced by the upper-tube of the Challenger-double.
While, the lower-tube of the Challenger-double would be the compression tube.

Why not build a super ACP type of rifle based on the disco double?  One made with the lower tube configured as the pump and just the upper tube as the reservoir? 
More of a PCP an ACP, just like the independance but a lot more affordable.

That was EXACTLY what I had planned for my .25 Challenger Double Tube - it only works as a Reverse Pumper...the pump arm pivots reverse to what everybody is used to.
I will take a better look at that design later... Mike

As far as I'm concerned the".25 Challenger Double Tube" is a very exciting design to consider.
And, if a regulator were incorporated ... the Challenger may prove to be ... feature-wise ... a step ahead of the FX Independence.

[CarsonRatSniper]

Lots of good ideas and excellent feedback from lots of people...

If I *drop off the map* for a couple of weeks it is because I am getting something built and can no longer afford to be distracted 2-3 hours a day checking and responding to every post on the forum...

I will post updates when I have something to share...

Thanks everyone!

Mike

[rsterne]

I can't see the practicality of making a regulated pumper, as there is no way to reach high enough pressures using a single stage pump like we are using.... In addition, if you had a double tube design, the reservoir would be so large (135 cc) that it would take hundreds of pumps to fill it.... It would also be, IMO, prohibitively heavy.... These projects tend to suffer from "Mission Creep" by their very nature, particularly when public input is being provided.... The only significant change to my Millenium Pumper will be the addition of the 16 gr. CO2 cartridge inside the stock just ahead of the gauge to increase the reservoir from 28 cc to 45 cc, the concept already proven in my Disco Carbine Pumper.... It is a simple blending of the two designs to provide more air onboard with virtually no increase in weight and no change in external appearance.... The addition of Mike and Jim's Millenium top end completes the build....

I proposed my idea of a regulated Disco Double to Lloyd, and I can tell you that he is interested, and we are studying the feasibility.... This is in reality a completely separate project, and IF it happens would be something Lloyd would develop and offer through AirGunLab, at least that is how I view it.... Mike would, of course, be able to supply the Millenium top end to fit on a Disco Double (regulated or not), just as he could to fit on any Disco.... and the combination of the two would be a stunningly useful PCP.... However, this project and the Millenium Pumper are essentially two separate designs....

Bob

[aom22]

I can't see the practicality of making a regulated pumper, as there is no way to reach high enough pressures
using a single stage pump like we are using....

Bob, visualize Steve in NC's ACP
... is there no-reason-why his design could have a check valve to contain air in a very small resevior to supply a regulator installed upstream
from the "16gm threaded CO2 cartridge acting as a supplementary air reservoir."
To allow for a few ... 2-to-3 ... well-regulated shots for hunting.
Then, perhaps, only 3-to-5 strokes of the pump-arm to replenish the very small air reservoir feeding the regulator for each shot taken.

I can't see the practicality of making a regulated pumper, as there is no way to reach
high enough pressures using a single stage pump like we are using....
 
In addition, if you had a double tube design, the reservoir would be so large (135 cc) that it would take hundreds of pumps to fill it....  Bob

For 2-to-3 well regulated shots ... wouldn't require a large reserve capacity - much, much less than 135cc.
Moreover, with several foster fittings ... a hand-pump could be used for the initial charge of the reservoir feeding the regulator and the separated plenum.

[rsterne]

If you want an ACP that is in the 392 class for power, then go for it.... Small amounts of power lead to minimal pumping.... Large amounts of power require more storage and more pumping (or filling from a tank or stirrup pump).... There is no point in installing a regulator running at 1800 psi (or even 1600) in a pumper that can only pump to that level, IMO.... If you want to pump up a reservoir to 1800 and then regulate it down to 1200 it would work.... but then your FPE is limited to what you can get from 1200, and the lower efficiency that results from that....

If on the other hand, you want a double tube design, with 135 cc of air storage in the upper tube, then again I say, go for it.... There are as many possibilities of how to build a Millennium Pumper as you and I can imagine, and then take that number and square it (at least).... When I developed MY version of the Millennium Pumper, that's exactly what I called it, MY VERSION.... After many years of it being talked about on the Green, nobody had done anything about it until I did.... I first built the Carbine, out of nearly 100% Crosman/Benji parts.... then learning from that I developed my version of what I thought the Millennium Pumper could be, still using mostly Crosman parts.... AFAIK, nobody else has taken it even to that level yet, let alone further.... I applaud Mike for taking the idea and running with it.... Crosman easily could of and ignored it.... Let's hear it for the "little guy" !!!

Bob

[aom22]

rsterne, thanks for schooling me on the impracticality of regulating a MSP.
And, thanks to CarsonRatSniper for taking-up the challenge of 
attempting to build a viable Millennium Pumper for all of us.
 
I really hope the Millennium Pumper and Millennium PCP come to fruition.

[cclingma]

If I *drop off the map* for a couple of weeks it is because I am getting something built and can no longer afford to be distracted 2-3 hours a day checking and responding to every post on the forum...

I will post updates when I have something to share...

A picture or two along the journey of the build process is sure to set all us followers into a frenzy.

These projects tend to suffer from "Mission Creep" by their very nature, particularly when public input is being provided.

I could kind of feel that happening and I'm as guilty as anybody.  I hope we didn't cause too much mission creep.  Be a shame to creep this project out of completion.  I for one am really hoping Mike and his rifle can succeed.

[Bryan Heimann]

If I *drop off the map* for a couple of weeks it is because I am getting something built and can no longer afford to be distracted 2-3 hours a day checking and responding to every post on the forum...

I will post updates when I have something to share...

A picture or two along the journey of the build process is sure to set all us followers into a frenzy.

These projects tend to suffer from "Mission Creep" by their very nature, particularly when public input is being provided.

I could kind of feel that happening and I'm as guilty as anybody.  I hope we didn't cause too much mission creep.  Be a shame to creep this project out of completion.  I for one am really hoping Mike and his rifle can succeed.

It would be a shame.  My apologies... I guess I need to build a project of my own, lol.

[rsterne]

Ideas and discussion are always welcome, as long as those offering same don't get upset when their suggestions aren't used.... In many cases they have already been tried and failed, or they simply are unlikely to achieve the desired results.... Once in a while we get a good idea we haven't thought of, and then it, or a modified version of it, get incorporated into the project.... I have seen too many projects fail because the builder gets so sidetracked that he loses sight of his original goal, and I have to admit I have tried to do my level best to keep Mike focused on simply producing what I developed, more or less as-is.... We both, virtually simultaneously (and independently), came up with the idea to add the 16 gr. from the Carbine to the Millennium Pumper to increase the onboard reservoir volume, as the only downside is increased pumping if you are using the onboard pump to fill it.... It shouldn't increase the "pumps per shot" to top up the gun, though.... Otherwise, the intention is to produce my Millenium Pumper as I built it, with the addition of a new repeating breech, and a carbon sleeve bonded to the barrel to stiffen it.... I'm looking forward to seeing this project completed and marketed.... and wish Mike and Jim every success....

Bob

[Chako]

So you guys are going after some power(6.35mm), but what kind of specs/efficiency could we get with a 12fpe .177 or a 20fpe .22? Could we get 25 or more shots per fill and only pump 10 times to recharge? Or better?

[rsterne]

No and no!.... I don't think Mike has any plans for .177, but building a 20 FPE .22 would be no problem.... We won't know how many shots the new 45cc reservoir will deliver, but it is 1/3rd the size of a Disco, so that should give you a pretty good idea.... I would think 10 shots at that power level MAY be possible.... My .25 cal, after 3 shots at 40 FPE required 40 pumps to refill to 1800 psi, and that was with the 28cc reservoir.... IF we get 5 shots at the same 40 FPE with the 45cc reservoir (I'm hoping for that), it should take about 65 pumps to get back to 1800, so that would be about what you could expect after 10 shots at 20 FPE, approximately.... My best guess would be about 5 pumps per shot at first, increasing to maybe 7 pumps per shot if you shot 10 shots of 20 FPE.... but at present that is just a WAG....

Bob

[CarsonRatSniper]

I'm only jumping in here to say I have a 1:16 twist .217" barrel that will be tested on a gun...I will post full specs and available calibers when we have 2 working guns *with stocks* that I can put through the paces.

Jim is making an entirely new plate for his cutting machine since I went and changed the Millennium breech to 1.25" wide at the barrel junction.
*OOPS*!
Didn't I mention I was no machinist?
I had no idea what kind of things needed to be built just to cut a Picatinney rail...

Its getting done but we can't start until he has the plate machined.

I sure hope some of you guys out there buys these guns...we won't turn a profit until about 15 are sold!

I will update with pics as we progress...

Mike

[BobbyHumphrey]

   I will do everything in my powwr to buy one . I have complete faith in your project .

[cclingma]

   I will do everything in my powwr to buy one . I have complete faith in your project .

Me too.  I'm putting in overtime at work and at convincing my wife how badly we need a multi shot high powered pellet rifle.

[BobbyHumphrey]

    I will sell the diamond earnings my grandmother left for me to give to my future wife. No doubt she would understand.

[Matt15]

    I will sell the diamond earnings my grandmother left for me to give to my future wife. No doubt she would understand.

LOL now lets not be rash. After all it is just an Air rifle.