*Poll* High Quality 6.35mm Air Rifle - PCP vs Pumper

[CarsonRatSniper]

I was thinking of using a full length Disco tube and taking advantage of the fill nipple on the left side of the gauge adapter...
135cc plenum (full tube) without a bottle to screw up the overall weight and balance of the gun.

Sure you have to run a remote line but its located in an easy to the reach spot by the left side of the breech and you can still have a regulated gun.
Just use a little shoulder bag for a 22ci bottle or a small pack like a Camelback for the 90ci bottle.

That *will* cover what we have talked about for future plans with this platform.

[rsterne]

That would do it for a tethered PCP to be sure.... I'm not sure how many will share your enthusiasm for a tethered gun, but it would be a unique piece of the market, and require no changes from the Millennium design other than to eliminate the pump and check valve assembly.... so pretty much a no-brainer in the production department.... If you tune the gun the same as the pumper (eg. 3 shots at 40 FPE) you could still fill from a regulated tank to 1800 psi, untether, shoot your 3 shots, and then refill, of course.... or tether when you are at the bench or find it convenient.... Not a bad compromise.... If you want more air, just add a Disco Double lower tube....

Bob

[aom22]

A regulated Double-Disco with a Millennium upper might be a feasible idea?!?!?!
Inserting a Ninja Pro regulator between the lower-tube and the fill nipple on the left-side of the gauge adapter.

         
          Image sourced from:
          .22-caliber Lightweight Disco Double: Part 1

Interesting background

Where did Lloyd get the idea for the Disco Double?
Is the Benjamin Discovery somehow deficient in air capacity?
Not really.
But Lloyd was building a special .25-caliber conversion of the rifle for a customer, and it ran out of air very fast.
The double air tubes were put there to make that big .25 a workable solution.
And, after seeing what those tubes added to the rifle, Lloyd naturally expanded his conversions to the basic rifle,
and the Disco Double was born!

[Bryan Heimann]

Why not build a super ACP type of rifle based on the disco double?  One made with the lower tube configured as the pump and just tbe upper tube as the reservoir?  More of a PCP an ACP, just like the independance but a lot more affordable.  I imagine that even if you have to buy the Disco at retail, yiu could build and sell this gun for double tge price of a Disco and still have a decent profit margin.  Or offer it as a conversion option.  I wojld readily pay the price of a brand new Disco plus shipping to have a disco converted like this...

[CarsonRatSniper]

That was EXACTLY what I had planned for my .25 Challenger Double Tube - it only works as a Reverse Pumper...the pump arm pivots reverse to what everybody is used to.

I will take a better look at that design later...I have an idea that will allow us to get away from the reverse pump configuration.

Mike

[Bryan Heimann]

That is awesome.  Talk about the ultimate air rifle.  The indy is nice, but was too expensive and it looks like a ray gun.  I'd really like to see a more practical version, with a more prsctical price tag.  At least for under a grand, and still having a fill port or nipple.  I would definitely join the dark side for that, lol.

[aom22]

... it only works as a Reverse Pumper...the pump arm pivots reverse to what everybody is used to.
I will take a better look at that design later...I have an idea that will allow us to get away from the reverse pump configuration.

Would reverse-pumping be like a cocking under-lever springer?!?!?!
Reverse pumping might be easier than conventional pumping.
By bracing the butt of the air rifle on the thigh and, then, pulling-down on the pump-lever.
Reverse-pumping, like an under-lever springer, may allow the user to use with both-hands
to draw-down the compression-lever towards the braced-butt.

Rather than, using a conventional pump-hold ... grasping the top of the receiver with the off-hand.
While the other hand holds the pump-handle ... driving the pump-handle towards the receiver.
With a scope mounted, hard/heavy conventional pumping can get a little tricky.

[rsterne]

aom22, you would need to run the reservoir tube at 3000 psi in order to get any benefit in shot count with a regulator setpoint of 1800 psi.... Yes, a Double Disco with one tube as reservoir and the other as plenum would work if you did that.... What makes sense is to use the upper tube (containing the valve) as the plenum, with the regulator mounted in the front of it, and use the lower tube as reservoir, running at 3000 psi.... If you ran a setpoint of 1800 psi, that 1200 psi (83 bar) of "headroom", with the lower tube volume of 115 cc (7 CI) should give you a total of about (83 x 7) = 581 FPE of regulated shots.... That could be 5 shots at 116 FPE, 10 shots at 58, or 20 at 29 FPE.... and you could likely do a bit better than that, it assume an efficiency of 1.0 FPE/CI which isn't that tough to achieve....

Bob

[CarsonRatSniper]

The regulator would need to be installed in the upper tube just like the check valve is going to be on the Pumper.
The lower tube contains the fill nipple and that is also where the screw that connects the two tubes together is - the joining screw has a tiny hole drilled through the center to allow air to pass between the two tubes.

I thought about having the lower tube thread into the gauge block where the 16 gram CO2 bulb would go but that won't work if you want it regulated as the lower tube will be feeding the valve almost directly through its face.

Bob, maybe the regulator could be installed at the gauge block end in the lower tube?

The muzzle end of the lower tube would need a band attaching it to the main tube to keep the lower tube supported...you could bypass the regulator in the lower tube by tethering to the gauge block fill nipple...unless this design doesn't get a fill nipple in the gauge block due to whether or not there's enough room.

This can be done but I need to speak with Lloyd about it - the Double Tube is his baby and I'm not stepping on anybodys toes...

Mike

[rsterne]

I PM'd Lloyd and he thinks it may be possible to incorporate a regulator into the front plug of the upper tube.... That would leave the lower tube as the reservoir and the upper as the plenum, which makes sense as the valve is already mounted in it....

Bob

[CarsonRatSniper]

*THAT* would be awesome Bob!

[aom22]

... possible to incorporate a regulator into the front plug of the upper tube....
That would leave the lower tube as the reservoir and the upper as the plenum, which makes sense as the valve is already mounted in it....

A regulated Double-Disco with a Millennium upper and a Disco or Blaster stock ... sounds like an reasonably affordable package.
 
Would it be possible to adapt a Ninja Pro regulator to the front-end for the lower-tube (reservior) with a high-pressure line
connected the out-put end of the Ninja Pro routed to the front-end plug of the upper-tube (plenum).

[rsterne]

Now we just have to convince Lloyd that tooling up to do the regulator installation is worth it.... I know it can be built using Ninja pistons, so there is a lot of work saved, right there.... C'mon Lloyd, join the party?.... *LOL*....

Bob

[aom22]

.... C'mon Lloyd, join the party?....

I'll bet Llyod would be convinced if he were presented with a list of customers that have laid-down a deposit
for a position with the Millennium PCP project as part of a group buy.

[rsterne]

It's not a simple thing to tool up to make the required internal regulator housing (the only way to do it, IMO).... and figure out how to remount the gauge, if possible.... but we can hope he finds the interest and the time.... time always being a problem....

Bob

[aom22]

It's not a simple thing to tool up to make the required internal regulator housing (the only way to do it, IMO)....

Integrating an external regulator would be more expeditious and, probably, less expensive.
And, would allow for easier out-put pressure adjustments.
Certainly not as esthetically pleasing ... but, more pragmatic.

[CarsonRatSniper]

Heck, I'd buy 1 from him *right now* and install it in my Challenger Double Tube!

I've got 290cc's of air in the gun because the lower tube is 4" longer than a Disco due to the gauge being located on the side of the rifle...the lower tube comes all the way back to the valve retaining screws.

I can tether my 13ci 1800 psi regged bottle and see what kind of numbers I get with my current set up.

I will mod a Millennium breech to fit my Challenger - then install a Rsterne valve *wink* - and I can test the theory of how this setup will work in 30 minutes.

Just have to get some breeches built!

Mike

[rsterne]

aom22.... and something Lloyd would, IMO, not be interested in doing, and neither would I....

Bob

[Bryan Heimann]

Time to open a secret airgun account    If you build it, they will come... Where did that naked indian come from    In all seriousness- make this happen, I swear I will buy.  Saving now.  Someone will make it, I bet someone out there has already gotten started.  Make mine .22 however, so I can shoot off the shelf ammo 

[CarsonRatSniper]

The whole external regulator is simply solved by tethering a regged bottle to the gun.

The *internal* regulator in the end cap assembly would make for a very clean looking gun without something hanging off the end to get snagged up on branches or whatever.

I really like that idea and hope Lloyd can find the time to come up with something - or maybe Lloyd could provide Jim with some drawings for what needs to be machined - there's enough talent around here in the GTA that if we actually got some good collaborated efforts together we could probably become a World leader and producer of some very fine custom or semi custom air rifles!

The more parts you run, the less expensive each part becomes...

I'm just throwing that out there...there should be a *Meeting of the Brains* some day and we should all put in to start a Corporation.
I know...now I'm *REALLY* daydreaming!
 

RG25 - I've already got TWO .22 barrels