The .177 for hunting ?

[Bryan Heimann]

The bc of the pellet are not typically higher in .22 caliber.  They are lower in many cases.  Check the table on Chairgun and you'll see.

That is because you are comparing apples to oranges.  Yes, a .177 jsb exact heavy has a better BC than a .22 wadcutter, hollowpoint, or some of the mid range domes.  But a .22 jsb exact heavy is better still.  If you match the brand and type/design of pellet, you will see how much better the .22 really is at long range.  You can't just base everything on a single .177 pellet compared to every weight and shape of .22 and assume the .177 does better.  A similarly heavy for caliber dome in a larger caliber will typically trump the smaller pellet.  I think the only exception to this is the crosman premier which lists .177 as being higher- and in this case, .22 premiers under other brand names such as accupell are still listed higher on chairgun.  Based on that I have to assume they used the hollow point .22 premier was used for the testing the ballistic data was extracted from.

[Bullit]

I was comparing apples to apples.  Even considered keeping weights closer to one another.   Been thru this before, but check a couple common ones out:
Crosman Premier .177@10.5g  vs  Crosman Premier .22@14.3g
JSB Exact Heavy  .177@10.3g  vs  JSB Exact Standard .22@15.9g
I'll just agree to disagree, and let folks look into the differences themselves.
These are benchmark figures, and individuals may see a higher/lower different Bc from their rifle.

[cwlongshot]

http://www.chuckhawks.com/sd_beginners.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/bc.htm

Rather then type a page of definitions and experience. Some people here don't complete understand these topics.

Yes I know it's bullets not pellets, but for these tow things it's pertinant to both. Hope this is helpful.

CW

[Bryan Heimann]

I was comparing apples to apples.  Even considered keeping weights closer to one another.   Been thru this before, but check a couple common ones out:
Crosman Premier .177@10.5g  vs  Crosman Premier .22@14.3g
JSB Exact Heavy  .177@10.3g  vs  JSB Exact Standard .22@15.9g
I'll just agree to disagree, and let folks look into the differences themselves.
These are benchmark figures, and individuals may see a higher/lower different Bc from their rifle.

I love how you "randomly" selected two of the best heavy .177 domes to compare to mid- weight .22's.  You are not getting it.  10+ grains in .177 are heavy for caliber.  A better comparison would be the 18.13 jsb exact heavy or the 21 grain barracuda.  This is a dead horse that has been kicked and beaten probably for decades now. 

[Bullit]

LOL!   No.   These are most popular used pellets w/ the .177 shooters with high power and Magmum rifles. They are the "Best", because they historically perform!  In either caliber!  You buy junk, you usually get junk.  Both are proven.
 I use both companies myself.  The M48s I use do better a tad with the JSBs...but no problems w/ the boxed Premiers at all

Edit:  If anyone can tell me how to downsize and post my personal results (Chairgun Graph), with both calibers from the 2 Dianas,,,I'd be glad to post it.

[TriggerHappyDude]

.22 have higher BC than .177

Thats like telling me that a melon has less drag than a lemon ...

The difference in size between .177 and .22 is just 1 millimeter, however this difference is exaggerated in surface area. Of course if you compare a .177 wad cutter and a .22 round nose things will be different.

[grobe1458]

LOL!   No.   These are most popular used pellets w/ the .177 shooters with high power and Magmum rifles. They are the "Best", because they historically perform!  In either caliber!  You buy junk, you usually get junk.  Both are proven.
 I use both companies myself.  The M48s I use do better a tad with the JSBs...but no problems w/ the boxed Premiers at all

Edit:  If anyone can tell me how to downsize and post my personal results (Chairgun Graph), with both calibers from the 2 Dianas,,,I'd be glad to post it.

do a print screen of it. then open mspaint, then left click edit and left click paste.
expand the window so you can see the whole image, then left click image, then left click stretch and skew.in the stretch window, change both the vert. and hor. to 60 and see how that looks.

if you have a graphics app you can paste it then resize to something like 600x800.

[Bryan Heimann]

Hopeless.

[Bullit]

mspaint?  No gots.  Had no luck resizing it down to the 250k limit here on GTA by using ms image/fax viewer, after I transferred it.  Obviously, I am not the best, or up to date on software, windows XP here, but guys....anything you can do to help me is super!  Downsizing is the problem w/the file.   PMs welcome if you know.  It's a good graph 
MODERATORS???  little PM help?

EDIT: If members are interested, and can post the graph for all.  I'll PM you the critical data to enter into your Chairgun.  I just ask that you post it. 

[grobe1458]

mspaint?  No gots.  Had no luck resizing it down to the 250k limit here on GTA by using ms image/fax viewer, after I transferred it.  Obviously, I am not the best, or up to date on software, windows XP here, but guys....anything you can do to help me is super!  Downsizing is the problem w/the file.   PMs welcome if you know.  It's a good graph 
MODERATORS???  little PM help?

EDIT: If members are interested, and can post the graph for all.  I'll PM you the critical data to enter into your Chairgun.  I just ask that you post it. 

paint comes built into xp. left click start, then left click all programs, then left click accessories, then left click paint.

[jrhunter]

To settle the .177 penetrating debate, me and my friend took 1 squirrel each about 3.5 hours ago. He used his Benjamin Trail NP XL 1500 with Beeman Kodiak Extra Heavies ( 10.65 tapered dome ) at about 20.2 ft.lbs and I shot my Hatsan 1000S Striker with my Beeman Kodiak Extra Heavies ( 21.14 grain tapered dome ) at 18.5 ft.lbs, and we both shot a squirrel form about the same distance. His shot on a gray was about 32 and mine was about 30 yards. Using Chairgun his pellet hit with approximately 14.2 ft.lbs and mine hit with approximately 15.3 ft.lbs. Mine hit with approx. 1.1 ft.lbs and 10.49 grains of more weight. After we skinned the squirrels, both got hit in the shoulder and and lungs. His pellet broke the first shoulder and broke up and hit the lungs. Mine blew his shoulders and got a some of the lungs and a rib or a part of the pellet partially pierced the heart. My pellet did exit but we found it and it was really beat up. My friends pellet was partially still in the squirrel the other part we never found. My squirrel was blown out of the tree, his took a second or two to fall out the tree. So in this practical hunting situation, penetration was not an importance, the power and accuracy is what killed them. The accuracy put the pellet through the vitals and the power blasted through the vitals killing the squirrels. My .22 penetrated the same or just a bit better than the faster shooting .177, penetration has nothing to do with killing on squirrels and rabbits as long as you have power and accuracy.

[TriggerHappyDude]

Looks like you got some good data there, thank you.
it got me playing around with the idea of what if you had the same gun with 2 barrels, so you could shoot both calibers at the same power level. Here are my figures:
.177 10.65gr JSB Exact Heavy
.22 16.2gr JSB Exact
Power level at 16J or 12fpe

First the ballistic curve:

And the energy:


As you can see, the energy difference is tiny, while the .177 ballistic curve is way flatter.
The .22 would still have an advantage in wind resistance.

They are so close, there is really no point to arguing. Depending on your rifle power level and ammo choice, both calibers a capable of doing some good damage.

And once you hit the sound barrier, its a different story. Drag is calculated by using the square of velocity, meaning the faster you go, drag increases exponentially. As long as the .177 remains subsonic, it is very much the same as a .22 shot with the same energy as far as external ballistics go. In terminal ballistics .177 uses less energy to penetrate further than .22 due to smaller surface area. If that is what you want, its an advantage for the .177. If its momentum you want .22 wins that one.

At sub sonic speeds, these 2 calibers really depend on your preference and setup to maximize their effectiveness.

[Bullit]

Do ya wanna post 2 identical Diana 48 rifles, with my actual data?  It will verify your findings...even more, from the same powerplant, same Diana rifles, JSB Exact domes. 
 "Watch 'Em Drop" with the same bc they both have 
Graph 900fps for the JSB 10.3g .177,  vs  740fps for the JSB 15.9g in .22  Zero=22yds.  Scope height=2.25"  75yds max.
Chairgun download is free.  Up in the menu there' Compare Mode that superimposes both separate tabs you enter separate data into:
http://www.hawkeoptics.com/chairgun.html

[Bryan Heimann]

Do ya wanna post 2 identical Diana 48 rifles, with my actual data?  It will verify your findings...even more, from the same powerplant, same Diana rifles, JSB Exact domes. 
 "Watch 'Em Drop" with the same bc that they both have 
Graph 900fps for the JSB 10.3g .177,  versus  740fps for the JSB 15.9g in .22?

More apples and oranges.  The .177 JSB exact heavy has a .031 BC according to chairgun, and the .22 JSB exact has the same.  In 2 of the same gun, with 2 different calibers, the .177 jsb exact may edge out the .22.  But that is one case, and the .177 JSB heavy compared to the regular 15.9 grain .22 is an unequal comparison.  The 18.13 jsb exact heavy- proportionately closer to the 10.3 grain .177 in weight for caliber, has a higher BC.  A better comparison would be the round ball.  A .177 round ball has a BC of .014 according to Chairgun.  The .20 has a BC of .015, the .22 has a BC of .017, .25= .020, .308 ball = .033, .45 ball has a BC of .040.  From there it fluctuates a little but this is based on airgun velocities and energy levels.  Hopefully you can see the pattern.  if you push the .50 roundball up into blackpower territory it will do comparatively much better at a given energy level.  Now here is a little chart for you:

Pellet                   weight    BC
.177 jsb heavy     10.3        .031
.22   jsb heavy      18          .033

.177 jsb exact       8.44        .021
.22   jsb exact       15.9        .031

.25   jsb king         25.4        .036

.177 barracuda      10.5        .025
.22   barracuda      21.1        .036
.25    barracuda      31          .042

Do you see the pattern here?   Similar pellets, in BOTH design AND weight, typically have higher ballistic coefficients in larger calibers.  The exception being if the pellet is being shot at velocities that are considerably less than optimal, and we are talking a lot less.  At 20 FPE, a .177 pellet is not going to outdo a similar pellet in .22.  I'd like to see a comparative chart of your 48's using the 18.13 grain .22 pellet vs the 10.3 .177.  You seem highly biased in your findings, based off your refusal to compare other pellets. Not to say that the 10.3 grain jsb in your 48 is not a good choice, I am sure it is a terrific hunter and game getter as well as long range target shooter.  And I do believe the results you are getting, you may be throwing those .177 JSB heavies at the perfectly optimal velocity for it's performance.  But that doesn't make it so for the majority of airguns.  Here is another fun fact for you:  Despite a greater selection of pellets to choose from, according to Chairgun, ONLY TWO .177 PELLETS HAVE BALLISTIC COEFFICIENTS OF .030 OR GREATER.  In .22 caliber, there are 8 options with  BC of .030 or higher.  In .25, the list grows to 7 pellets with a BC of .030 or greater with one reaching .042.  And that entire list is only 23 pellets long.  Also, in .177, about 3/4 the list of pellets have a BC of less than .020.  In .20 it is about 2/3 and in .22 it is almost 50/50.  In .25, almost 3/4 of the list has a HIGHER BC than .020.  You ought to look at some posts by Rsterne regarding pellet ballistics.  He has done extensive pellet testing at different velocities and the results he has gotten will confirm this.  Just because the .177 pellet with probably the absolute best bc of all the .177 pellets I have seen can do better in your particular rifle that shoots it extremely well can beat a rifle of the same model in .22 with a comparatively less optimal pellet does not make the .177 the best. 

[Bullit]

The point was that it really doesn't make a big difference in the field.  The bc difference in these lightweight subsonics, is a lot less of a factor, than "armchair QBs" make it for airgun hunters.  They're air rifle pellets, after all...these are the "ultralights" in hunting.
The FPE and range of effectiveness in a flatter trajectory was always the point for my dispute against the poor posting that the .177 was "useless".  I'm pretty sure that Bob, will pretty much tell you the same thing.   "They Is what They Is"  And Useful
Final Post in this Thread....

[jrhunter]

Do ya wanna post 2 identical Diana 48 rifles, with my actual data?  It will verify your findings...even more, from the same powerplant, same Diana rifles, JSB Exact domes. 
 "Watch 'Em Drop" with the same bc that they both have 
Graph 900fps for the JSB 10.3g .177,  versus  740fps for the JSB 15.9g in .22?

More apples and oranges.  The .177 JSB exact heavy has a .031 BC according to chairgun, and the .22 JSB exact has the same.  In 2 of the same gun, with 2 different calibers, the .177 jsb exact may edge out the .22.  But that is one case, and the .177 JSB heavy compared to the regular 15.9 grain .22 is an unequal comparison.  The 18.13 jsb exact heavy- proportionately closer to the 10.3 grain .177 in weight for caliber, has a higher BC.  A better comparison would be the round ball.  A .177 round ball has a BC of .014 according to Chairgun.  The .20 has a BC of .015, the .22 has a BC of .017, .25= .020, .308 ball = .033, .45 ball has a BC of .040.  From there it fluctuates a little but this is based on airgun velocities and energy levels.  Hopefully you can see the pattern.  if you push the .50 roundball up into blackpower territory it will do comparatively much better at a given energy level.  Now here is a little chart for you:

Pellet                   weight    BC
.177 jsb heavy     10.3        .031
.22   jsb heavy      18          .033

.177 jsb exact       8.44        .021
.22   jsb exact       15.9        .031

.25   jsb king         25.4        .036

.177 barracuda      10.5        .025
.22   barracuda      21.1        .036
.25    barracuda      31          .042

Do you see the pattern here?   Similar pellets, in BOTH design AND weight, typically have higher ballistic coefficients in larger calibers.  The exception being if the pellet is being shot at velocities that are considerably less than optimal, and we are talking a lot less.  At 20 FPE, a .177 pellet is not going to outdo a similar pellet in .22.  I'd like to see a comparative chart of your 48's using the 18.13 grain .22 pellet vs the 10.3 .177.  You seem highly biased in your findings, based off your refusal to compare other pellets. Not to say that the 10.3 grain jsb in your 48 is not a good choice, I am sure it is a terrific hunter and game getter as well as long range target shooter.  And I do believe the results you are getting, you may be throwing those .177 JSB heavies at the perfectly optimal velocity for it's performance.  But that doesn't make it so for the majority of airguns.  Here is another fun fact for you:  Despite a greater selection of pellets to choose from, according to Chairgun, ONLY TWO .177 PELLETS HAVE BALLISTIC COEFFICIENTS OF .030 OR GREATER.  In .22 caliber, there are 8 options with  BC of .030 or higher.  In .25, the list grows to 7 pellets with a BC of .030 or greater with one reaching .042.  And that entire list is only 23 pellets long.  Also, in .177, about 3/4 the list of pellets have a BC of less than .020.  In .20 it is about 2/3 and in .22 it is almost 50/50.  In .25, almost 3/4 of the list has a HIGHER BC than .020.  You ought to look at some posts by Rsterne regarding pellet ballistics.  He has done extensive pellet testing at different velocities and the results he has gotten will confirm this.  Just because the .177 pellet with probably the absolute best bc of all the .177 pellets I have seen can do better in your particular rifle that shoots it extremely well can beat a rifle of the same model in .22 with a comparatively less optimal pellet does not make the .177 the best.

 

My Brain !!   

[Bryan Heimann]

I agree with you there- the .177 works.  Some guns are better in .177 and some are better in bigger calibers.  At 15 fpe and under i would prefer a .177 as well.  The lines blur as the power increases to a point that the .22 has the clear advantage, and so forth for .25 and on up.

[TriggerHappyDude]

Do ya wanna post 2 identical Diana 48 rifles, with my actual data?  It will verify your findings...even more, from the same powerplant, same Diana rifles, JSB Exact domes. 
 "Watch 'Em Drop" with the same bc they both have 
Graph 900fps for the JSB 10.3g .177,  vs  740fps for the JSB 15.9g in .22  Zero=22yds.  Scope height=2.25"  75yds max.
Chairgun download is free.  Up in the menu there' Compare Mode that superimposes both separate tabs you enter separate data into:
http://www.hawkeoptics.com/chairgun.html

[AudiS4]

As you can see, the .22 retains its energy over longer distance than the .177, with H&N FTT.

Therefor a .22 is a better choice in a hunter. Period.

[Bullit]

LOL.
I tried to illustrate the 2 by using close weights and just caliber changes.
Why didn't you adjust your fps for the heavier .22 pellet from the same power source?  It's actually 740fps in .22,,,from the same gun (power source), that did 900fps in .177   
C'mon.... You young guns are slippin'    They can't both do 900fps...and the more weight you add to the .22 pellet, the slower it will go!  LOL
Good job THD,  do it again with the slower fps of the .22 if you haven't ! You'll chuckle.