.22 V .25

[PGunner]

I'm thinking about a new gun.
Looking for advantages and disadvantages between .22 and .25?
What would be the best of either buck for bang?
I am kinda of an accuracy addict, distance, hit power.
And staying in the $200 to $300 range.
So far I'm leaning on .25

[BenjiHunter]

Get a Webley Patriot .25.
Mine is very accurate once you've learned how to hold it.

[Flatcar1]

I have both, and they both have pluses and minuses, but the .25 is a lot more costly to shoot and you will have to mail order your ammo. Unless you need the extra power for larger game hunting, then I would pick the.22. JMHO FWIW

[Bryan Heimann]

In .25, and within your price range, your best options are the Hatsan magnums.  125, in all it's various stocks, or the 135 especially.  In an underlever, the 155 torpedo.  For a little more, a turkish Webley Patriot would also be a good choice.  Other than these, getting a breakbarrel with the stones to move the .25 fast enough to be useful will be hit or miss, right out of the box.  The Benji Trail NP XL would be nice, but reports on power are as low as 20 fpe or as high as 28 after a good de-bur and lube, with replacement seals.  At least the Hatsan guns consistently put out at least 25 or 26 fpe, 30 + if they are healthy.  That will give you a useful trajectory with the right ammo.  But if you are willing to go with a .22, it opens up the door to a few guns built with better tolerances that are reported to be more accurate.  It is a tough decision, I am sure.  I have owned a .25 hatsan 125 and it was a hammer, and pretty accurate, but I sold it- twice, actually.  Bought it back from a fellow and sold it again becuase the ammo is expensive and I have to buy it on line- something to consider.  The .22 breakbarrels offer a flatter trajectory, same power level, and greater pellet selection- plus you can buy your ammo at the store.  An argument can be made for the greater energy retention and wound channel size of the .25, but there are .22 pellets offering ballistic coefficients as good or better than the best .25 offerings- available on-line.  The .25's still offer more momentum and a larger wound channel.  .22 offers a little better penetration in most cases.  If you are willing to sacrifice some power for a little better fit and finish, an RWS 34 might be a good choice.  In .22 it makes a good hunter and it has a pretty good following.  All that being said, probably the two best choice in the $300 price range would be a xsB28 with a full tune from flying dragon airguns- available in .25, with a power tune it will be useful enough (but i'd prefer a .22), or my top pick which is a benjamin 392 steroid from mac1 airguns.  Yeah, you have to pump it every shot- but it offers many distinct advantages over recoiling springers and it is stil self contained. I guess that was kind of long, hope I've helped

[PGunner]

If you were out in the middle of no where and hungry What would be the biggest critter you could take down with a .25?
I don't mean beat it to death with pellets or being cruel just down it.

[wahoowad]

it's not the caliber, you need to be thinking about the energy. Plenty of fast .22's with more energy than a slow .25.

But in moderately priced .25 springer you are going to be limited to possum/skunk/raccoon size game if you can deliver an accurate kill shot and at appropriate distances to have the necessary energy. Anything bigger and your probability of an ethical shot starts to decrease significantly.

[PGunner]

Price range could be $500. give or take.

[Nikoman]

Now that you've upped the price range a bit, you can get a decent scope with it too.

[Bryan Heimann]

Okay, now you're talking.  $400 will get you a powerful Hatsan pcp in .22 or .25, and up it to $450 and you can get an at44 s-10 long that will get you at or close to 50 fpe in .25, or close to 40 in .22.  With the right pellet, and a well placed head shot, that will kill a 200 ib hog inside 30 yards.  And it's not hold sensitive.  This is power to take medium sized game with boiler room shots, but with accuracy so good you might as well go for the circuit box.  But the you have to buy a pump, too.  Another route would be to get a disco/pump combo for $400 and install a power adjuster and heavy hammer spring.  This will get you into the 30 fpe ballpark, as good as the most powerful springers, but with zero hold sensitivity for good shot placement.  Last but not least, there is the mac1 392 steroid.  $300 some od dollars gets you a self contained gun that's not hold sensitive, is very accurate, and will get into mid-20 fpe power with heavy ammo.  This and a williams peep, or a scout mount and scope, and you are set.

[PGunner]

I'm kinda looking at gas piston guns.
Crosman Benjamin Trail NP All-Weather .22 Break Barrel Carbine
Benjamin Trail NP Nitro Piston Hardwood air rifle
Benjamin Trail Nitro Piston XL 1100 .22-.25 Caliber Air Rifle
I kinda like a gas piston but I'm not locked in to any at this point just looking for a knock it down gun.
I've been looking at several. These range in the $209. to $299. range but I am open to other options. I think I am still looking at the .25s.
I like the self contained guns. I have a CO2 and I guess I'm not much on having to refilling a gun

[Bryan Heimann]

     I prefer a self-contained gun myself.  The XL's are not bad guns.  It will more than likely need a de- bur and fresh piston seal to perform optimally.  Piston seals usually get nicked a bit when installed in guns- especially in this price range.  The Trail XL has a threaded end cap on the comp tube, however, so it is especially liable to shred that seal.  I would not count the Trail XL out in .25, but I would also look to the Hatsans.  The XL is especially quiet in .25 cal, however, and that is nice-especially in the back yard.  You still have to deal with the loud impact of those pellets though  
     The Hatsan magnums do a little (or a lot) better in .25 than the Trail XL.  The XL is reported to pretty much top out around 28 foot-pounds (perfectly healthy specimen, probably tuned), more likely 22-24.  The Hatsan 135 is typically a 30 fpe gun, and the 125 is not far behind it.  The Hatsans might even do a little better than that, up to around 34 fpe after a tune.  But, thats's with the spring.  With a Nitro conversion, and with seals in optimum shape performing as they should, i think the Hatsan 125 is about tied with the XL.  The 135 will still beat it.  I have only had a Hatsan 125 in .25 with spring and my XL was a .177, so my experience is limited and I am basing most of this information on reports I've read about these guns.
     My honest opinion is that .22 or .25 are about equally lethal in a breakbarrel.  The .25 doesn't really start to shine untill you start dealing with powerful pcp rifles.  The .22 offers a flatter trajectory and more range on the smaller game, the .25 offers a larger wound channel but probably not enough to beat the .22 in a medium sized animal because the .22 makes a deeper wound.  I imagine they inflict a similar amount of damage.  25 cal pellets typically retain energy better than .22, but some of the heavy offerings in 22 are as good as or better than anything in .25 caliber.  Since you have such a great budget, I would be looking at the RWS 460 mag in .22 or the 350 Magnum.  The 460 would be my first pick, based off reports of about the same power level as the 350 but less hold sensitive.  These are both 22-24 fpe guns out of the box, but with a de-bur and Vortek kit i have read reports of up to 27 fpe.  Plus they are generally reported to be very, very accurate at longer ranges- especially the 460.  But I've never personally owned or fired an RWS weapon.
     These are just my opinions, based off what I've read over the last couple years.  Take it for what it's worth.  I think if you get the RWS 460 in .22 it will exceed your expectations.  If I had a $600 budget for a gun, that's what I'd buy.  I would probably stick to raccoon size or smaller with headshots, and if I could shoot it really well I might try for a fox or even a coyote at close range (if i could get that close).  But realistically, for a 100% success rate on one shot kills, I think a big raccoon is at the top of the list.  Plus your range is still limited because you have to be able to place the perfect head shot every time to ensure a humane death, and guarantee recovery of the animal.

Also edited for Steveoh

[PGunner]

With the right pellet, and a well placed head shot, that will kill a 200 lb hog inside 30 yards
That's is the one I want. What is the one you would get for that job and what Cal.

[Bryan Heimann]

     A Sumatra in either .22 or .25 would be my first pick for that job.  Probably .22 so I could practice with cheap ammo and buy the good, heavy Eun Jins or Kodiaks for hogs. 
     That said, inside your price range, again- Hatsan AT44 S10 long.  It is what it is.  With springers you are looking at the ballpark of 30 fpe, and with one you could make that perfect shot a lot less power than that.  Remember, we are talking about animals that headbutt and ram one another when competing for mates, and root and dig with their noses in dirt.   They are tough. 
     A 30 foot-pound springer would probably do the job with the right pellet, but not with good consistency.  You are liable to wound an animal and make it suffer- and she may try for some payback.  Especially an angry momma- you just gave her a fleshwound and these animals are pretty much either pregnant or with a litter all year. 
     Shot placement becomes that much more critical at this power level and at the same time the guns are more hold sensitive.  To compensate for the likelihood of pulling the shot with a hold sensitive spring beast (the likes of a Hatsan magnum)I wouldn't try it from more than 10-15 yards and that's probably pushing it.  Also, head shots only.  Look for "Nomadic Pirate" (Manny) in the hunting gate.  He's taken numerous hogs with air rifles.  If I remember correctly he once posted about someone shooting a hog from 50-ish yards with a Sumatra and getting a glancing headshot.  The animal ran away and was not recovered, probably survived with a permanent headache.
     At 50 yards, a Sumatra is easily more accurate than a Hatsan 135 is in the hands of most people at 30 yards.  Plus, it's still putting more energy on target than the Hatsan is at the muzzle.  So the shot has to be absolutely surgical in precision and you have to wait for him to put his head down, or give you a perfect side profile of his fuzebox.  Even with his high powered smallbore (.22 and .25) PCP's, Manny waits for this- and if i am not mistaken he does most of his hunting inside of 30 yards.  That means passing on a lot of opportunities.  And he actually bought and experimented with several spring guns to give them a chance, and never found a satisfactory balance of power and accuracy to try it.  If anyone would know what is capable, it's him.  If I were you I'd send him a PM to talk about it.

Edited for Steveoh

[steveoh]

Great postings, but you know they'd be a lot easier to read if there were paragraphs, instead of one giant chunk of text.

Steve

[Bryan Heimann]

Sorry bud just trying to put as much info out there as I can with the time I have.  It is what it is, I am just a regular guy

[mcc1961]

I have a Marauder .25 that I just got and the ammo for it is 2x as much as .22 which I have a Disco with a double tube ,BNM breech and shroud.The Disco .22 will probably be my squirrel hunting gun just because you get a few more shots out of it,but  I really like the power of the .25.You can get a Disco and pump for the money you are willing to spend with all the extras you can get for a Disco its a great rifle.

[rsterne]

Are we really recommending shooting a 200 lb. hog with a 40-50 FPE airgun?.... What ever happened to the 1 FPE per lb. MINIMUM with an accurately placed shot to dispatch an animal humanely?.... Hunting regulations here in BC don't allow taking deer with a .22 rimfire, and that's 130 FPE.... and 200 lbs. is a pretty decent sized deer, certainly no harder to kill than a hog.... CAN you kill a deer with a .22LR, sure.... SHOULD you is another matter....

Bob

[Bryan Heimann]

Are we really recommending shooting a 200 lb. hog with a 40-50 FPE airgun?.... What ever happened to the 1 FPE per lb. MINIMUM with an accurately placed shot to dispatch an animal humanely?.... Hunting regulations here in BC don't allow taking deer with a .22 rimfire, and that's 130 FPE.... and 200 lbs. is a pretty decent sized deer, certainly no harder to kill than a hog.... CAN you kill a deer with a .22LR, sure.... SHOULD you is another matter....

Bob

Well, that would rule out any springer, no doubt.  But most laws like this do not take a well places head shot into account.  Then again most people don't have the skills or even the patience to make such a shot.  A good boiler room shot is widely accepted as the most humane shot, as long as you use enough gun.  That is typically a lot more than 1 fpe per pound.  More like ten fpe per pound or more regarding the use of centerfire rifles on deer.
     As for air rifles that meet the fpe per pound minimum, if you are hunting hogs it rules out small bore air rifles altogether.  I am not going to cheer Manny on and then tell this guy he can't do it.  Shot placement, accuracy, and pellet selection are key.  A well placed head shot from a 40-50 fpe pcp at close range is going to drop a 200 lb. hog.  A gut shot with a .30/06 will make him suffer a nasty death, and you probably won't recover him. 

[PGunner]

What would be better.
A .22 14gr. pellet leaving the barrel at a speed of 650 fps or same pellet leaving the barrel at 750 fps?
Does speed play a big part in this?

[HCAirgunner]

What would be better.
A .22 14gr. pellet leaving the barrel at a speed of 650 fps or same pellet leaving the barrel at 750 fps?
Does speed play a big part in this?

A Benjamin Discovery Pellet (14.3 Grain) will have the following effectiveness at the following speeds:

650 fps = 13.42 FPE (Foot Pounds of Energy)

750 fps = 17.87 FPE

850 fps = 22.95 FPE

950 fps = 28.66 FPE (This is your upper limit, because once you get above ~1,000 fps, the pellet starts to wobble, and accuracy suffers. Most people going for accuracy shoot sub-sonic, i.e., below 1,000 fps.)


Hope this helps!
Chris

P.S. Also, keep in mind, this is muzzle velocity; downrange, you're losing a bit. I would *guess* (and that's all this is) that if you were 28-29 FPE out of the muzzle, then at 50 yards you'd be looking at more like 21-22 FPE by the time you hit the animal. Does anyone have a calculation for this?