.22 V .25

[HCAirgunner]

One other thing: velocity and mass have a delicate balance in the FPE equation; each compliments the other.

Thus, a slow moving pellet with more mass can still compete with a lighter mass pellet moving at a higher speed.

For example:

RWS Super H-Point Pellets in .25 caliber (25 grain weight) have the following numbers:

450 fps = 11.24 FPE

550 fps = 16.8 FPE

650 fps = 23.46 FPE

750 fps = 31.23 FPE [Here, the slow moving .25 cal pellet surpasses the 950 fps .22 pellet]

850 fps = 40.12 FPE

950 fps = 50.11 FPE

As you can see, as we approach the sub-sonic limit, the mass of the pellet becomes important, because it's delivering a lot more power.

Of course, most .25 caliber springers shoot in the 650 - 750 range; you'd need PCP to get to 950, unless someone out there knows of a way to tune a .25 springer to achieve those results.


Chris

[HCAirgunner]

One last thing:

You know, I wonder why no one has yet made a .25 cal spring pistol that shoots around 550 fps?

You'd have a 17 FPE pistol! How cool would that be? It might be a beast to cock, but I'd definitely be willing to try! LOL! 

Chris

[rsterne]

There are a few rare people who do things with airguns that the average shooter SHOULD NOT ATTEMPT.... One of our long standing members (Shadow?) regularly takes racoons with a .177 cal B-26.... Manny takes hogs with .22 and .25 cal PCPs.... However, I will NOT recommend those rifles for such use.... and it is my opinion that those who do are doing a disservice to the animals as the average (even well above average) airgunner simply does not have the accuracy skills or anatomical knowledge to pull it off.... Yes, a .22LR is used to dispatch cattle weighing several hundred lbs. at the slaughterhouse, and that is the same FPE/weight relationship we are talking about in shooting a 200 lbs. hog with a 40-50 FPE airgun.... Does that mean it's a good idea.... NO !!!

200 lb. hog (or deer).... 200 FPE airgun MINIMUM.... PLEASE don't use (or recommend) less for the sake of our sport....

Bob

[PGunner]

I guess my intrest in this is the survivalist in me.
And keeping those Zombies at bay. Ha Ha Ha
Most of this discussion just curiosity.
Please do not use any of this to go out and try to shoot some thing that your air gun isn't made for.Small varmint and under not deer, bear, wild bore, Etc.

[Bryan Heimann]

Obviously in a survival situation you would test the waters however you saw fit.  Any magnum springer would be a good bet in a survival situation, but imho the best would be an rws 460 or 350, for the power and accuracy.  The absolute top dog for a solid airgun/survival hunting tool would be a 392 steroid if you have a good powderburner to handle the bigger game.  But if you have to lean on an air rifle only, then my first pick would be one of the Evanix .357 repeaters, a good hand pump, and plenty of o-rings for rebuilding.  Second pick would be one of the samyang big bores.  A .45 cal samyang 909 would give you all the power and accuracy you could ask for at less than $700.  I have read some reports of the dragon claw having accuracy issues.  At any rate- if you are leaning on an air gun for survival and no powder burners a .357 big bore is probably the best bet.  From what I have read about these, they typically have twist rate that specifically shoots roundballs well, so you can mould your own and expect good accuracy.  The recluse would be nice at around $650 but for $350 more you can get a nice sidelever repeater from evanix- the Rainstorm II.  My dream girl .

[Nomadic Pirate]

About a year ago I started the endevour of getting ready to Hog Hunt with Springers/Nitro guns, I had a few that after alot of penetration testing made me confident that I could be effective in the 15-20 yards range,
The problem I found is that I could get real good groups with them Super Magnums, BUT, I could never just pick the gun up cold and put the shot exactly where I wanded it, ....My Nickle sized groups ment nothing when that cold 1st shot wasn't exactly there because in the end of the day that is what you need, the tradeoff in getting power out of springers is that they become much harder to shoot.

So now we go to PCP, I used to have a Maurader .25 that maxed out is basically a 45 FPE gun, well that gun never graduated to Hog Hunting, never gave me enought confidence,.......( I know, I know Crosman put out there several Maurader Hog Hunt videos )

60 FPE and up is what I would consider the bottom line, BUT MORE IMPORTANT IS TO REALLY KNOW THE ANATOMY OF THE QUARRY YOU HUNT, because we are talking precise BRAIN shots here, not a headshot.

in a long term survival situation I take a PCP and a Pump over a springer anyday.

 

[Bryan Heimann]

'Bout time.  Where ya been, lol

[Nomadic Pirate]

There are a few rare people who do things with airguns that the average shooter SHOULD NOT ATTEMPT.... One of our long standing members (Shadow?) regularly takes racoons with a .177 cal B-26.... Manny takes hogs with .22 and .25 cal PCPs.... However, I will NOT recommend those rifles for such use.... and it is my opinion that those who do are doing a disservice to the animals as the average (even well above average) airgunner simply does not have the accuracy skills or anatomical knowledge to pull it off.... Yes, a .22LR is used to dispatch cattle weighing several hundred lbs. at the slaughterhouse, and that is the same FPE/weight relationship we are talking about in shooting a 200 lbs. hog with a 40-50 FPE airgun.... Does that mean it's a good idea.... NO !!!

200 lb. hog (or deer).... 200 FPE airgun MINIMUM.... PLEASE don't use (or recommend) less for the sake of our sport....

Bob

If you really feel strong on the subject, than you should seriously considering boicotting Crosman,....and not aloud mention of their products on the forum.

Because that's exactly what they are doing, and they can reach a much broader audience than we'll evr do on a forum, they have several videos of doing exactly that, hunting Big Hogs with a 40-50 FPE gun.

opinions of a nobody like me an others on a forum will never match the reach they have.

...just saying

[robtmc]

P.S. Also, keep in mind, this is muzzle velocity; downrange, you're losing a bit. I would *guess* (and that's all this is) that if you were 28-29 FPE out of the muzzle, then at 50 yards you'd be looking at more like 21-22 FPE by the time you hit the animal. Does anyone have a calculation for this?

No guess about it, things slow down fast and the energy bleeds away with it.  If you knew the velocity at a particular range you can calculate the retained energy.

Chairgun does have a chart option showing energy at range, same as a ballistics program I got some time ago does.

[HCAirgunner]

Chairgun does not appear to have a chart option showing energy at range, but a ballistics program I got some time ago does.

Well, don't keep me in suspense!  What does the ballistics program say?!? 


Chris

[robtmc]

Edited my post, Chairgun does have a tab for a chart that shows retained energy at range. 

Fire it up and load in your particular pellet and velocity info to see it.

[PGunner]

Benjamin Titan GP Nitro Piston Air Rifle
Velocity:   950 fps

Benjamin 392 pump air rifle  steroid
Velocity:   685 fps Before steroid

Both in .22 Cal.
Does any one know how thick of a plywood either of these would go threw?
Pellet size too?
I kinda like both of these. What would be your favorite for bobcats?

[Bryan Heimann]

3/4" birch plywood will stop them both dead in their tracks.  I would not go after bobcats with either of them, with a 392 after a steroid tune i might try with a heavy pellet.  The 392 actually gets pretty close to advertised velocity, sometimes beats it, and is very skmple and easy to boost the power by a foot pound or two.  The titan gp is really only a 700 fps gun with most lead pellets.  The 392 is a better rifle in my opinion.

[HCAirgunner]

The Titan has 13.42 FPE with 14.3 grain pellets @ 650 fps, but I'm not sure that it would be enough for a humane kill on a bobcat. I would want a solid 20 FPE or higher for a bobcat.


Chris

[Nomadic Pirate]

Benjamin Titan GP Nitro Piston Air Rifle
Velocity:   950 fps

Benjamin 392 pump air rifle  steroid
Velocity:   685 fps Before steroid

Both in .22 Cal.
Does any one know how thick of a plywood either of these would go threw?
Pellet size too?
I kinda like both of these. What would be your favorite for bobcats?

Really ? Bobcats ?


OK, we need to start all over again here, we are way off track

[PGunner]

The Bobcat part was just me being silly.
It's funny I started out just looking for a good hard hitting .22 V .25 and dropped into hunting big game with a pea shooter.
This has mostly been a big IF. If I had to. If it would. IF IF IF

And what I really want to know is of the last 2 guns I mentioned what one would be the fastest, hardest hitting, accurate, gun in either .22 or .25? 

But it has been a very interesting topic and I think I have learned more about air guns than I have in the last 2 yrs. I know where most people that say I'm new to air guns what is a good one. With all the guns out there and with money for most a little tight the whole process is just plane confussing. It's a good thing for forums like this to at least take a lot of the confusion out of it.

I do thank all of you for your comments and help and advise.

[PGunner]

Next weekend I'm going hunting for Bear I think my R9 should be big enough.
Any one want to go with?

[SpringerForever]

...
Does anyone have a calculation for this?

Hawke's free Chairgun Pro software or Strelok (free Android app) are capable of calculating estimates of the FPE at various distances.

FWIW, one of my Hatsan Mod 125 Sniper .22s theoretically outputs ~19.8 FPE at 50 yards with the JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy 18.13gr pellet. ~14.1 FPE at 100 yards! 28+ actual FPE at the muzzle with the same pellet. But it tops out at 30+ FPE with a lighter (& inaccurate) pellet.

[SpringerForever]

As far as finding a springer that can consistently output 30+ FPE, perhaps even 35+ FPE, that might be a possibility with the Vortex powered Hatsan Mod 125 Sniper rifles. I'm going to be buying a remanufactured Vortex powered Hatsan Mod 125 Sniper .25 to find out if it's possible. The air spring is set at ~125 bar from the factory but has a maximum rating of 150 bar. I plan on slowly increasing the pressure until accuracy falls off with a particular pellet. And then repeating the process with an even heavier pellet until I've found the sweet spot for maximum accuracy & FPE with the heaviest pellet possible while maintaining a maximum velocity of 900-950 FPS.

Nomadic Pirate has got a good point about springer super magnum accuracy cold. Sometimes I'm dead on with my 3 Hatsan Mod 125 Snipers but sometimes it takes 3-5 shots to get accurate. FWIW, my nitro spring powered Hatsan Mod 125 Sniper .25 does seem a bit easier to shoot accurately with the first shot & overall. I definitely prefer it's shot cycle over my two coil spring powered Hatsan Mod 125 Sniper .22s. But ... my favorite Hatsan Mod 125 Sniper is one of the .22s. Happens to be a bit more powerful than the nitro spring powered Hatsan Mod 125 Sniper .25, 28+ FPE vs 25+ FPE, with the most accurate pellet, the JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy 18.13gr (30+ FPE & 28+ FPE otherwise).

[HCAirgunner]

I found a list of ballistic coefficients for various pellets on the chairgun site. The Benjamin 14.3 grain .22 caliber pellet has a BC of 0.020

Then I plugged the data into the calculators on the AoA site.

A .22 caliber pellet weighing 14.3 grains, leaving the muzzle at 650 fps (typical Crosman Titan GP) achieves 13.42 FPE.

At a distance of 50 yards, the speed of that pellet has dropped to 476 fps, which means that something hit at that distance would receive 7.2 FPE.

So, that pellet would perform thus at the following ranges:

Retained Velocity @10 Yards = 611 fps = 11.86 FPE

Retained Velocity @20 Yards = 574 fps = 10.46 FPE

Retained Velocity @30 Yards = 539 fps = 9.23 FPE [This would be the max "humane kill" distance for something large, like a hare]

Retained Velocity @40 Yards = 506 fps = 8.13 FPE

Retained Velocity @50 Yards = 476 fps = 7.2 FPE [Even at 50 yards, where the pellet has lost almost half of its energy, most squirrels and large birds such as crows are still pretty much toast.]



Chris

P.S. In my first example, on page 1 of this post, I was guessing at FPE lost for a .22 pellet (14.3gr) traveling at 950 fps muzzle velocity. Well, no more guessing. Here it is.

At 50 yards, that pellet is at 695 fps. That means when it hits at 50 yards, it's producing 15.34 FPE, which is significantly lower than my guess. It's still hitting pretty hard, but it's lost a considerable amount of energy.