Mobile and lightweight HPA filling solution

[sperho]

Like these?  http://www.jdsairman.com/TanksRegs.html  I only post a competitor's products in this thread because they can be found and...competition is good.  I don't know the o.d. of these tanks.

[NinjaPaintballRay]

Hey guys.  Sorry I haven't been on the last few days.  I had the pleasure of attending the Flag City Toys That Shoot airgun show and was busy planning my trip.  All in all, it was a fun show and I learned more about some of the custom stuff guys have built and what some people are looking for in terms of filling the cylinders.

Side note - I had a lengthy discussion with a few guys at the show that were looking to install regulators in their guns while leaving them tethered to a large bottle to make very consistent shots.  The regulators cost around $250.  I recommended having us build a regulator and regulate the air coming from the cylinder they are tethering from.  Not only could they use it for tethering and regulating every single shot but they could also use it for filling.  Might be a very nice way to provide very consistent shots.

Thanks for the post on the other cylinders.  We're very familiar with them and have looked at them in the past.  We tend to use a very specific cylinder manufacturer to get the best prices and we would have to go through another company to have them made.  Since its a very small segment of the market, we haven't dived into those size cylinders yet but it is something that's on our radar.

[sperho]

My kit came in today and I picked it up over lunch.  Looking forward to trying it out this evening...

[NinjaPaintballRay]

My kit came in today and I picked it up over lunch.  Looking forward to trying it out this evening...

Good to hear you were able to pick up the system today!  Looking forward to hearing your feedback

[sperho]

Good to hear you were able to pick up the system today!  Looking forward to hearing your feedback

Jon at Mayhem Park was kind enough to fill my tank for me (on his day off!  actually he was at the shop, but not officially open ) to 4500 psi, which settled to about 4200-4300 psi after cooling.  I didn't realize that the bleed screw had to be cranked down pretty firmly (is that normal for a new bleed valve) and I had the main valve accidentally cracked when I attached the fill station to the regulator, so I lost several hundred pounds before the first shot was fired.  No hose whipping - I was taking things pretty slowly because this was my first time with this kind of valving, so that's good. 

Anyway, I connected the rifle in tether mode and started shooting.  The hose is just long enough to do this without strain.  See pic below.  Initially, I had the valve only cracked open (common best practice to limit flow if a connection is lost) and within about 40 shots, I noticed I wasn't really "tethered" anymore.  It appears that the valve needs to be opened further than I had it or as the pressure drops, the valve closes if it's only cracked.  I'm used to a 2-stage regulator where when the cylinder valve is cracked, the system remains stable.  Is what I observed normal for this type of regulator?  In any case, I cranked it open quite a bit more and I shot and shot and shot and shot and shot (~27-30 fpe).  Now I understand why people wait up to a minute between shots with a PCP:  after about 60 rounds (I only have two 10-shot mags, so there was a few reloads in between the strings) I started to see the POI drifting pretty badly.  Turns out the relatively rapid firing was causing the whole system to cool down due to air expansion out of the external cylinder.  I put my hand on the gun's air tube and it was pretty cool to the touch; same with the Ninja bottle!  So, I started pausing for at least 20 seconds between shots and things stayed a lot more stable.  I'm thinking that the temperature change was causing some barrel/breech/air tube flex - given it's free-floating barrel design - causing POI to shift.

Anyway, tethered, I was able to shoot from about 3900 to 2500 (Ninja regulator reading) and have consistent POI after I slowed down.  I have my gun setup so that from 2900 psi to about 2000 psi, the POI doesn't move noticeably due to a flat velocity within that pressure range.  I didn't count how many times I reloaded my magazines, but I'm guessing that I ran around 250-300 pellets through at this muzzle energy.  I am VERY happy I bought this little cylinder!  It's small enough to put in a backpack and I can tether off it for way longer than I usually shoot for - *great* for pellet testing and sighting in a rifle!  Thanks for putting this together!

[NinjaPaintballRay]

Jon at Mayhem Park was kind enough to fill my tank for me (on his day off!  actually he was at the shop, but not officially open ) to 4500 psi, which settled to about 4200-4300 psi after cooling.  I didn't realize that the bleed screw had to be cranked down pretty firmly (is that normal for a new bleed valve) and I had the main valve accidentally cracked when I attached the fill station to the regulator, so I lost several hundred pounds before the first shot was fired.  No hose whipping - I was taking things pretty slowly because this was my first time with this kind of valving, so that's good. 

Im very happy to hear that Jon was able to help you out with filling the system.  When we fill a "guppy" cylinder in paintball, we tend to flash fill them and top them off in a matter of seconds, which will result in heat from the cylinder expanding.  As it cools down, you will lose pressure.  If you dont mind waiting a few minutes, have Jon top it off for you after it cools down.  You will need to make sure that the on/off knob on the Universal Fill Adapter part of the PCP Fill Station is activating the pin on the top of the regulator enough to where it is releasing the full 3000psi.  If you only crack it open, it will make your gun "starve" for air due to not enough flow.  Screwing the knob down more will push the pin on top of the regulator further down into the regulator allowing is to regulate correctly.

Anyway, I connected the rifle in tether mode and started shooting.  The hose is just long enough to do this without strain.  See pic below.  Initially, I had the valve only cracked open (common best practice to limit flow if a connection is lost) and within about 40 shots, I noticed I wasn't really "tethered" anymore.  It appears that the valve needs to be opened further than I had it or as the pressure drops, the valve closes if it's only cracked.  I'm used to a 2-stage regulator where when the cylinder valve is cracked, the system remains stable.  Is what I observed normal for this type of regulator?  In any case, I cranked it open quite a bit more and I shot and shot and shot and shot and shot (~27-30 fpe).  Now I understand why people wait up to a minute between shots with a PCP:  after about 60 rounds (I only have two 10-shot mags, so there was a few reloads in between the strings) I started to see the POI drifting pretty badly.  Turns out the relatively rapid firing was causing the whole system to cool down due to air expansion out of the external cylinder.  I put my hand on the gun's air tube and it was pretty cool to the touch; same with the Ninja bottle!  So, I started pausing for at least 20 seconds between shots and things stayed a lot more stable.  I'm thinking that the temperature change was causing some barrel/breech/air tube flex - given it's free-floating barrel design - causing POI to shift.

Very interesting.  I've never considered temperature variations and how they would affect your POI.  When you allow air to flow very rapidly, it will cool down the device its feeding and cool down the regulator and bottle.  In paintball, if we allow one of our regulators to fully vent from 4500psi to zero in a matter of seconds, condensation and moisture will occur and a little frost will most likely develop.  When this happens, the orings may not work correctly and the regulator may start to vent between the bonnet and the bottom of the regulator and not regulator the pressure correctly.  When you were rapid firing, how quickly were you pulling the trigger? (example: 1 pull per second, 1 pull every 2 seconds, etc). 

Anyway, tethered, I was able to shoot from about 3900 to 2500 (Ninja regulator reading) and have consistent POI after I slowed down.  I have my gun setup so that from 2900 psi to about 2000 psi, the POI doesn't move noticeably due to a flat velocity within that pressure range.  I didn't count how many times I reloaded my magazines, but I'm guessing that I ran around 250-300 pellets through at this muzzle energy.  I am VERY happy I bought this little cylinder!  It's small enough to put in a backpack and I can tether off it for way longer than I usually shoot for - *great* for pellet testing and sighting in a rifle!  Thanks for putting this together!

Thank you very much for the detailed feedback while using the Ninja cylinder, regulator, and fill station!  This has a lot of great information I can use while talking to other shoots and I appreciate you sharing your results.  Just as  a quick heads up, if you ever need a longer Steel Braided Line with male fittings pre-installed, we make custom lengths in house.  We could make you the exact length your looking for if you determine the current line is not long enough.  Very easy to install the new steel braided line into your existing system.

[sperho]

When you were rapid firing, how quickly were you pulling the trigger? (example: 1 pull per second, 1 pull every 2 seconds, etc).

I was shooting benched, with the shoulder from the gun using a repeating rifle taking a shot immediately after cocking the gun and re-sighting.  I'm guessing 7-10 seconds between shots...

Thank you very much for the detailed feedback while using the Ninja cylinder, regulator, and fill station!  This has a lot of great information I can use while talking to other shoots and I appreciate you sharing your results.  Just as  a quick heads up, if you ever need a longer Steel Braided Line with male fittings pre-installed, we make custom lengths in house.  We could make you the exact length your looking for if you determine the current line is not long enough.  Very easy to install the new steel braided line into your existing system.

No problem.  I'll use the setup for awhile and let you know whether or not it would be beneficial to have a little longer whip.  I imagine it might be very useful to have a longer whip connected all the time, especially if I use the tank when shooting uphill  (which happens to be my backyard!) as the front end of the gun needs to be elevated more and I would rather not set the cylinder in something make-shift, nor carry extra gear around to shoot in that situation. I may try to shoot outside tomorrow evening and see how the hose length does and update this thread with my feedback.  Thanks for the consideration!

[sperho]

Did some more testing tonight.  I have a good guage (not NIST traceable or anything, but better than the gun gauge) that I can put in between the gun and the bottle so I can see what pressure the line is during tethering (I purchased it for another reason, but it works well for this, too).  I see that my Ninja regulator is regulating to about 2750 psi or so after I do a fill of the gun's air tube.  I let the bottle remain open and proceeded to shoot down range.  I noticed that the "good" gauge slowly drops to about 2600 psi and then tends to stabilize there during a shooting session.  I see the gauge drop a few 10s of psi immediately after a shot and then the gauge recovers to 2600 psi.  If I let the bottle remained tether for ~15 minutes without shooting, I see the gauge slowly drift toward about 2700 psi.  I would probably recover to 2750, but I didn't wait that long.  What I think is going on is that there is interplay between line pressure and the check valve on the rifle.  There appears to be required differential between the bottle pressure and the air tube that is required for air to follow the pressure gradient and move past the check valve on the rifle at a reasonable rate, which is why the guage settles to about 2600 psi during shooting session (not really rapid firing, just casual shooting with a single shot tray installed in the gun breech to slow things down a bit.

These things are simply observations that I'm reporting, not really a criticism.  Actually, I'm very happy where the pressure settles to because it is in the wide pressure band where I get the most consistent shot velocities.  To anyone who buys one, don't be put off, embrace the data and use it as a part of your tuning considerations for shooting tethered with a system like this.  Chances are, you'll have to change nothing on a gun that fills to 3000 psi max as most of these rifles like to, from what I can gather, be shot anywhere between 2000 and 3000 psi.  The pressure is consistent and the drift upward is very slow, at least on my .22 Marauder.

I have a big smile on my face.  This is a nice little rig.  I wouldn't complain, though, if the bottle regulated at 2950 psi, though, for fills and the droop ended up at around 2700-2800 psi.  i.e. I don't think it is worth the shipping it would cost me to sent the regulator back to Ninja for a tweak.

[trinket]

Nice informative stuff spreho, especially with your Mrod. Good job.

[NinjaPaintballRay]

More great information!  Thanks again and please let us know what else you find as you continue using the product.  If you have any questions, feel free to call me direct at 877-646-5287 x309

[NinjaPaintballRay]

Would you guys be interested in something like an 88 cu ft cylinder with one of these high output regulators mounted on it?  It would replace the need to have a din 300 scuba valve on top.  You would be able to use the same fill station that's pictured on the first page to allow the regulated air to flow into the cylinder on your gun.  You could also add a longer steel braided hose for tethering purposes (we make custom length hoses).

Almost forgot!  We just released a 5000psi rated Foster Quick Disconnect fitting that has a Safety Check Strut inside that will prevent the hose from whipping around if it becomes detached from the fill valve while the line has pressure.  Its available in 1/8" male or female NPT or 1/4" female NPT.



We received some pretty good feedback on the compressor unit and listing it for around $2500.  Electric start, fills our 90ci (16.2 cu ft) cylinders in under 9min, auto shut off at 4500psi (set it and forget it), weighs about 80lbs. This would be geared more towards gun ranges or gun stores that sell pcp guns and would like to also offer fills to their customers.  Not sure if we'll move forward with that but its still being discussed.

[rsterne]

I think the idea of an 88CF tank with a high output reg on it is a great idea.... but why not take the opportunity to make the regulator adjustable for the new setup?.... It would be VASTLY superior for tethering, and far more useful for filling a variety of guns with different fill pressures.... eg. Disco to 2000 psi, MRod to 3000, maybe even a big-bore to 4000.... The setup is going to be bigger and heavier anyway, and more suited for home/range use than field use, where you already have that covered with your excellent 90CI/4500 portable fill station....

The safety check on a female Foster is a GREAT idea.... I'll be replacing all the ones I have on the end of hoses as soon as they are available....

Bob

[NinjaPaintballRay]

I think the idea of an 88CF tank with a high output reg on it is a great idea.... but why not take the opportunity to make the regulator adjustable for the new setup?.... It would be VASTLY superior for tethering, and far more useful for filling a variety of guns with different fill pressures.... eg. Disco to 2000 psi, MRod to 3000, maybe even a big-bore to 4000.... The setup is going to be bigger and heavier anyway, and more suited for home/range use than field use, where you already have that covered with your excellent 90CI/4500 portable fill station....

The safety check on a female Foster is a GREAT idea.... I'll be replacing all the ones I have on the end of hoses as soon as they are available....

Bob

An externally adjustable regulator would definitely be an "ideal" product and its something we've discussed.  We have an older, dual regulated design that was externally adjustable and could probably be modified slightly to be used at higher pressures but we'll have to do a lot of work before we could release anything.

This is on our radar though

Glad you like the safety check.  A lot of our paintball stores and fields have been picking them up to install on their fill lines.  This would be a great fitting to install on a Shoebox.  These fittings are available now.  I'll be in the office on Monday if you want to order some.

[sperho]

I think offering the large tank with regulator is good, but it will be a smaller niche than one with adjustable regulation.  I wouldn't buy it because that's a lot of coin for a big tank without a lot of flexibility in use cases.  For someone *only* shooting off the bench, it would be ideal. 

With my fixed reg Ninja setup, I'm limited to 2800 psi unless I want to send it in for adjustment.  For a longer untethered shot string, I would want a full 3000 psi charge.  For my use cases, 2800 is fine, but I could see others getting frustrated with that upper limit on a small tank and more so on a larger tank.  For example, I'm finding it useful to re-fill my Ninja bottle with my big tank for a quick recharge.  It doesn't fill to a full 4500 psi, of course, but in about 60 seconds, I can have portability again for another round of shooting without carrying the big tank everywhere.  Then, when I have time, I can pump the big tank up for more use as a small tank filler or gun filler to max fill pressure.

I really like the check-valve Foster fitting as well.  I may be contacting you about a few of those...

[airpuffhunter]

with the 88 CF you can not even fill the 90CI/4500 PSI fill station.

[sperho]

I don't see why you couldn't add air to the 90CI tank from the 88CF (4500 psi) tank with the proper fittings.  It won't, of course, fill the small tank to 4500 psi, but it should take it to 4200 psi or so if you are only topping off the small thank from about 3000 psi, which if you are tethering off of the 90CI (regulated, of course) tank, is a lot of shots. 

[rsterne]

I think airpuffhunter's point was that you can't fill the 90 CI / 4500 portable fill station COMPLETELY using another 4500 psi tank, and he is correct in that.... If you refill the 90 CI (16 CF) when it hits 2800 from an 88 CF tank at 4500, the pressure after the first fill would be about 4200 as sperho says.... and each fill would drop about another 300 psi....

Bob

[sperho]

Yes.  My point was that a useful fill need not be a complete fill, which I pointed out in my post a few up (#114).

[airpuffhunter]

mi ideas is that if the 88cf tank is regulated to 3000 psi, it will be useless for filling the 90Ci to anything above 3000.
so it must have a way to regulate pressure.

[Motorhead]

mi ideas is that if the 88cf tank is regulated to 3000 psi, it will be useless for filling the 90Ci to anything above 3000.
so it must have a way to regulate pressure.

Yup, only way to get a rated capacity fill is having the output at source equal to tanks pressure rating.
Filling a regulated cylinder off another regulated cylinder won't cut it 
* Only exception is a tank like Benjamins aluminum 3K fill to 2K regulated bottle.  A regulated 3K source would top it off nicely 
Nice step down for guns like Disco's