Mobile and lightweight HPA filling solution

[NinjaPaintballRay]

Mods - please move this to the right section on this forum or please let me know where I should post this if this is the wrong section for this type of post.
UPDATED - includes picture.  Finally found out how to post one up on here 

Hi everyone.  My name's Rob and I work for a company called Ninja Paintball, a division of Pressure Specialist Inc located outside of Chicago, IL.  We are a machine shop that specializes in high pressure air products, mainly for the paintball industry.  We have been manufacturing products for several manufacturers in the AirGun industry over the last few years and have seen a need for a product that would give you guys a mobile, fast, safe, and  easy way to fill the air cylinders on your rifles and pistols.

Our company manufacturers a 90cubic inch bottle that is rated to hold 4500psi.  We would then install a regulator at the top of the bottle that would regulate the 4500psi inside the bottle down to say 3000psi or whatever output pressure you choose (ranging from 250psi on the low end all the way up to 3000psi currently).  You would then screw the regulator (attached to the bottle) into what we call our PCP Fill Station.  The PCP Fill Station device has a Universal Fill Adapter with an on/off know to allow the air to flow out of the bottle and regulator.  The air would travel into the Universal Fill Adapter, down a steel braided line and then into our fill device.  The fill device has a vent knob on the side to vent the air after you fill your cylinder and it also has a Quick Disconnect fitting you can use to attach the fitting on your cylinder or whatever fill adapter you need to make to have the device work with your fitting on your particular air cylinder.

Here's the total package including PCP Fill Station and 90ci/4500psi bottle.


We are on the verge of releasing the products and are waiting on the manuals to be finalized.  For just the PCP Fill Station, you are looking at a MSRP of $76.95.  The 90ci/4500psi bottle with custom output regulator (you designate the output pressure) should MSRP at $224.95.

The PCP Fill Station setup weights roughly 1 lb
The 90ci/4500psi Bottle with Regulator weighs roughly 3lbs 8oz.
That means you would have a mobile filling solution, capable of filling at a minimum of 2 full fills, that would weigh under 5 lbs.

We tested the system with a Benjamin Marauder Air Cylinder and here are our results:
We were able to get (2) full fills in the Benjamin Marauder Air Cylinder off of our 90ci/4500psi bottle and regulator.  What we did was empty the cylinder of all pressure.  Then filled the cylinder to the recommended pressure.   We then bled all of the air out of the cylinder, bring the pressure down to 0 again.  We then filled the cylinder all the way up to the recommended pressure again.  We bled the air a third time and on the third fill, we were able to get roughly 600psi in the cylinder.  We understand that you will fill the cylinders before it reaches zero but hopefully this data will help you determine how many fills you may be able to achieve at the pressure you refill at and the size of your cylinder.

All of our fittings, hoses, and products are properly rated for this application.  We are part of the ASTM sub-committee for paintball so we make sure to follow the safety recommendations which means our regulator will include (2) safety burst disks which we hold the patent on.

If anyone has any specific questions, please post in here.  I will do my best to keep an eye on this thread.  Again, it will be a few weeks or so before we're able to start selling these since we're waiting on our manual to be finalized but we're close.  I just wanted to post this to see what your guys' thoughts are on this solution.  Any feedback or recommendations you guys have would be greatly appreciated. 

[renowntwo]

Thanks for the heads up on your new product.

[bigriver]

The price sounds good and I'm looking forward to picking one up.  Make sure to post when they are available for purchase.  90ci/4500psi->output 3000psi.

[NinjaPaintballRay]

Thanks for posting guys and we're happy to hear you guys like the product and pricing.  Here's another item we manufacture that you guys could hypothetically use to fill.  I received a call from someone that had purchased one of these off of Ebay and has attached it to this larger SCBA tank to fill his air cylinders. 

This device is called our High Pressure Fill Station.  Its basically a regulator for large bulk cylinders.  We include a CGA-677 fitting that you would use to attach the device to the bulk tank's valve.  The gentleman I spoke to yesterday stated he removed the CGA to attach a different fitting to make it work with his SCBA tank.  The device is capable of regulating anywhere from 5000psi all the way down to 500psi.  You set the output pressure using an adjustment screw on the top plate.  We include (2) gauges, one that reads the output pressure and one that reads the pressure thats left in your bulk tank.  Not sure if you guys know about this but you can contact a national gas supplier to see if you can rent a large bulk cylinder, which generally costs about $115 + hazmat/delivery charges/fuel surcharge/rental rates.  Rates will vary from supplier to supplier but with this solution, you would be able to get a LOT more fills.  Some of these tanks are about 300cu ft and rated at 5000psi.  The other option would be to remove the CGA fitting and attach another fitting that would work with the large cylinder you're filling from.

Here's a picture of our High Pressure Fill Station:


The Quick Disconnect fitting is properly rated at 5000psi.

On another note, I would love to get some feedback from everyone on what you guys would like to see in terms of filling the air cylinders.  What would be ideal for the mass market?  Do you guys prefer manual hand pumps over our bottle/regulator or fill station design?  All recommendations from you guys are welcome.

[rsterne]

HI Rob.... There is a Fill Calculator here you should have a look at....  http://www.calc.sikes.us/2/index.php .... It predicts about 7 fills of a Crosman Marauder (215 cc) from 1500 psi to 3000 psi if you start with a 90 CI tank filled to 4500 psi.... It might be slightly less (say 6 fills) because of the volume wasted in the fill station and hose.... That makes it a VERY useful product although at $300 for the fill station, regulator, and tank, it's a bit pricy....

In my experience, the currently available hand pumps are not particularly pleasant to use, and tend to have a servicability problem.... Most guys don't have the room for a 300 CF Nitrogen tank (or access to getting it filled, if they live in the country like I do).... so they have 3000-3500 psi SCUBA tanks (typically 80 CF) or 4500 psiSCBA tanks (typically 66-88 CF) and get them filled at a SCUBA or Paintball station.... or have a "ShoeBox" compressor.... That's a neat little compressor that fills the gap between a hand pump and a full blown SCUBA compressor which typically costs $3000.... They are a bit slow (4 CF / hr.), but in the $550 range, and they have just brought out an upgraded model that is twice as fast, but $1100.... It's too bad that we can't have a 10 CF / hr. compressor than was well under $1000.... A source of lower priced SCUBA / SCBA sized tanks and fittings for home filling use would also be great....

Thanks for having a long, hard look at what we need, and asking the appropriate questions.... When a manufacturer does this kind of research for future product development, everyone wins.... As requested, I moved this to the appropriate Gate....

Bob

[NinjaPaintballRay]

Bob, thank you for moving this to the appropriate Gate.  I'm still learning where everything goes on these forums and I appreciate the help.

It was also very nice talking to you today and picking your brain about some ideas on what you feel would be an optimal filling solution for you and other airgun users.  I have some other projects in the works here at Ninja and I think some of the projects we're currently working on behind the scenes will be a really good fit.  Once we're able to release some more information, I'll make sure to let you guys know.

If anyone else has any other suggestions or things you have on your wishlist in terms of filling the cylinders, please let me know.  I'm also available to take any calls if you guys would like to speak on the phone in detail.  Our toll free number is 877-646-5287 and i'm at extension 309.

Thanks again everyone.  We really appreciate your input.

[Mebits]

I just wanted to say that I've got one of your 13ci 3000psi regulated to 1100psi tanks on my QB79 and it's the shizz. Nice product. Fits perfectly.

Keep up the good work!

Mark

[NinjaPaintballRay]

Thanks, Mark!  How many shots are you getting off of the 13ci/3000psi bottle with an output of 1100psi before you need to refill the cylinder? 

Hypothetically speaking, if someone came out with a cylinder that is similar in width to the 13ci/3000psi bottle or maybe slightly larger in diameter but also longer, would it be beneficial to you?  We're wondering if a slightly longer or larger aluminum bottle might be better or if there are any size/length restrictions which force you to use a smaller bottle.

[FNG54]

Thanks, Mark!  How many shots are you getting off of the 13ci/3000psi bottle with an output of 1100psi before you need to refill the cylinder? 

Hypothetically speaking, if someone came out with a cylinder that is similar in width to the 13ci/3000psi bottle or maybe slightly larger in diameter but also longer, would it be beneficial to you?  We're wondering if a slightly longer or larger aluminum bottle might be better or if there are any size/length restrictions which force you to use a smaller bottle.

I have a QB79 with one of the Ninja 13 ci tanks reg. ~850. The tank must be less than 2 inches to work without a adapter.
I fill to 2500 psi and refill at 1000 psi and get over 50 shots.

I am putting another one together (QB78) and am probably going to convert it from 12 gram carts. to HPA at 1100 psi so please don't increase the tank diameter.

I do not need larger capacity although I am sure some do. In fact if I could get a ~7 ci with a smaller diameter I probably would.
I am not going to be to far from my scuba tank at any given time.


.

[Rescue35]

I just wanted to say thanks for joining up and sharing with us.

Double thanks for calling them "cylinders" and not tanks.

[NinjaPaintballRay]

Thanks, Mark!  How many shots are you getting off of the 13ci/3000psi bottle with an output of 1100psi before you need to refill the cylinder? 

Hypothetically speaking, if someone came out with a cylinder that is similar in width to the 13ci/3000psi bottle or maybe slightly larger in diameter but also longer, would it be beneficial to you?  We're wondering if a slightly longer or larger aluminum bottle might be better or if there are any size/length restrictions which force you to use a smaller bottle.

I have a QB79 with one of the Ninja 13 ci tanks reg. ~850. The tank must be less than 2 inches to work without a adapter.
I fill to 2500 psi and refill at 1000 psi and get over 50 shots.

I am putting another one together (QB78) and am probably going to convert it from 12 gram carts. to HPA at 1100 psi so please don't increase the tank diameter.

I do not need larger capacity although I am sure some do. In fact if I could get a ~7 ci with a smaller diameter I probably would.
I am not going to be to far from my scuba tank at any given time.

.

Thanks for the reply.  I just had a meeting with our owner and Sales Manager about your guys' recommendations.  I dont think we'll be able to source a smaller cylinder (around 7ci with a 2" or smaller diameter) as the manufacturer we use here in the United States does not have something that small.  Being that it would be a very niche item, I dont know if we could justify spending the money to get the minimum quantity ordered to have them try and manufacturer it. 

Great recommendation though!  Keep em coming guys, we're all ears.

I just wanted to say thanks for joining up and sharing with us.

Double thanks for calling them "cylinders" and not tanks.

Thanks for having us and letting a manufacturer pick your guys' brains for ideas on what you guys are looking for and no problem on the correct terminology 

Thanks again for all the help guys

[Gertrude]

Nice products, but a bit pricey, for the narrow/niche area of use.
 ( basically used in the field, on a hunt,Where you will not be near your regular cylinder,... AND ,... Planning on making 100+ shots ?

 jmo

I just kind of figure if I'm going to be making 100 - 200 - 300 shots, my regular cylinder is going to be nearby.

Don't get me wrong,.. I'm not trying to knock it at all. I'd LOVE to have one myself, and it IS Very COOL,.... ( just not $300+ Cool ).

 Most true hunters, don't take that many shots when ** out on the hunt for game **. Sometimes, they may not see any game, and never take a single shot, before they are back to their truck, (where their regular cylinder is anyway),.... and then there is also the 5lbs added to the backpack.
 I dunno,... just running thought through my head.

Whereas, paintballers,... have very different requirements. They DO plan on taking as many shots as possible, before returning to their main filling cylinders.

 Think about it this way. For just about $200 more,... we could have a Shoebox, and Re-fill our own larger tanks.... (no more filling charges @ $4 to $$7 bucks each time.) The more I shoot, the faster it pays for itself.

I Dunno,... just running thoughts through my head, and trying to justify the cost vs. value.
It would need to be considerably cheaper for it to make it onto my ** I-Gotta-Have-It ** List .

Maybe We'll get lucky, and see one soon on the GTA Monthly Raffle !!!     
 Now THAT would be COOL ! (and,... get your product some welcomed exposure too boot) !

[NinjaPaintballRay]

Nice products, but a bit pricey, for the narrow/niche area of use.
 ( basically used in the field, on a hunt,Where you will not be near your regular cylinder,... AND ,... Planning on making 100+ shots ?

 jmo

I just kind of figure if I'm going to be making 100 - 200 - 300 shots, my regular cylinder is going to be nearby.

Don't get me wrong,.. I'm not trying to knock it at all. I'd LOVE to have one myself, and it IS Very COOL,.... ( just not $300+ Cool ).

 Most true hunters, don't take that many shots when ** out on the hunt for game **. Sometimes, they may not see any game, and never take a single shot, before they are back to their truck, (where their regular cylinder is anyway),.... and then there is also the 5lbs added to the backpack.
 I dunno,... just running thought through my head.

Whereas, paintballers,... have very different requirements. They DO plan on taking as many shots as possible, before returning to their main filling cylinders.

 Think about it this way. For just about $200 more,... we could have a Shoebox, and Re-fill our own larger tanks.... (no more filling charges @ $4 to $$7 bucks each time.) The more I shoot, the faster it pays for itself.

I Dunno,... just running thoughts through my head, and trying to justify the cost vs. value.
It would need to be considerably cheaper for it to make it onto my ** I-Gotta-Have-It ** List .

Maybe We'll get lucky, and see one soon on the GTA Monthly Raffle !!!     
 Now THAT would be COOL ! (and,... get your product some welcomed exposure too boot) !

PERFECT!  This is the exact kind of feedback we're looking for.  We want to make sure we address all concerns, whether its on price, how widely used you think the product will be, how well you think the product will work in your application, and anything else you guys can come up with.

Right now, one of your solutions is to buy a scuba tank and a scuba fill station.  Scuba tanks are only rated at 3000psi and are a bit heavy and hard to move around.  You get one fill at 3000psi and every subsequent fill after that drops in pressure.  With our system, you should receive about 6 full 3000psi fills and the bottles are easily filled at just about any paintball store or field and some dive centers. 

Another option is the Shoebox.  I was under the impression you need a compressor to run those?  If so, then if you spend $649 on the lowest model shoebox (or $1100 on their new Freedom8) + whatever the cost is on the compressor to act as the drive source, you're actually spending quite a bit more than our solution.  I just want to make sure when we're talking about pricing, we're looking at the big picture and comparing apples to apples.  Our cost is $300 vs $649 on the low end for the Shoebox + another few hundred dollars on the drive source.  The solution you refer to would cost someone twice as much as ours if you do not have a compressor.  Would this assumption be correct?

Here's a question for you since I hear about the Shoebox in a lot of my conversations with AirGun owners.  Hypothetically speaking, if a company were to come out with a compressor that you could use at home and plug into something like a Dryer socket for your washer/dryer unit, be able to fill a 90ci/4500psi rated bottle in under 15 minutes, and NOT have to buy a drive source to make it operate, do you guys feel that would be the ideal solution for filling your air cylinders?   If so, would $2000-$3500 be too much money to spend on this solution? 

Thanks again everyone.

[Gertrude]

First, Just as a disclamer, I'm not saying this system has no market.
 Certainly it does.
 As I said,  it would be pretty cool to have.

Yes the Shoebox is a aux pump that needs a minimum 80(?)psi source.
 but it does not take an expensive large compressor. A suitable 110v compressor for that can be regularly purchased for around $39.

Again, I do very much like the product.
 It's just a cost vs. value vs. usage thing for me.
 ($300 gets me pretty close to buying yet another PCP rifle too  , gotta feed the addiction, ya' know) ,     
 

[Rescue35]

Here is some feed back for you.

I like the idea of your 90 ci Cylinder and may well purchase one in the near future. My primary use will be to use at the range tethered to allow me to shoot from the bench longer without having to stop to refill. The problem I see (or at least an inconveinance) is that the end with the foster Q/D that attaches to the gun has the bleeder and block attached. That would induce a lot of stress on the foster fitting as well as the hose. If you could move the block/bleeder to the end that attaches to the cylinder. That could be avoided. Of course that could probably be easily accomplished by the end user rearranging the fittings.

I use a Shoebox compressor and really enjoy the freedom it provides. I am currently filling small 3000psi aluminum SCBA 10 minute "Escape" cylinders. These reculated cylinders that you will be offering would be an improvement on my set up.

It would be dificult for me to justify a $2500 compressor over the $650 I bought. I already had a shop compressor and the SCBA cylinders where free. Another $165 to Joe for fittings to fill and I was set. Didn't even consider the $1100 Freedom8. I would use the difference to purchase extra cylinders to keep full. Shoot as I pleased and rotate the cylinders through filling as necesary.

We PCPers are cheap when it comes to filling. I could by a really nice rifle with $2500...if not 2 or 3.

[NinjaPaintballRay]

First, Just as a disclamer, I'm not saying this system has no market.
 Certainly it does.
 As I said,  it would be pretty cool to have.

Yes the Shoebox is a aux pump that needs a minimum 80(?)psi source.
 but it does not take an expensive large compressor. A suitable 110v compressor for that can be regularly purchased for around $39.

Again, I do very much like the product.
 It's just a cost vs. value vs. usage thing for me.
 ($300 gets me pretty close to buying yet another PCP rifle too  , gotta feed the addiction, ya' know) ,     

Hi tri-5-ron.  Sorry, I dont want you to get the wrong impression.  We greatly appreciate any feedback you and everyone else can offer.  As a manufacturer, we have to address all concerns people are bringing up.   The one we're hearing the most is the Shoebox so I just want to make sure we cover everything when it comes to using that system versus ours.

The up front costs of the Shoebox + drive source would just be twice as much as our bottle and fill station combination.  We understand not everyone has a paintball store or field in their area they can easily get 4500psi fills from so our system wont be ideal for everyone.  If you do have a place to get 4500psi fills from and you're looking for fast or portable way to fill, then this might be something to look at.  With getting roughly 6 fills on a Benjamin Maurader and only have to pay roughly $5-$7 for a fill on the 4500psi bottle your'e filling from, this could be a much lower up front cost versus using the Shoebox.   Also, there is another company that already manufactures and sells a smaller carbon fiber tank, similar to what we have, but it retails for $400.  Ours give you about 20ci more volume and at a $100 less.

Another thing I would be worried about with using a $40 compressor with the Shoebox is running it for hours at a time.  We dont have one here to try out so hopefully you guys can shed some light on this for me.  Has anyone used a very inexpensive compressor in conjunction with the Shoebox and run it for 4+ hours and not have any issues?  Im thinking with the cost of the Shoebox + drive source + time it takes to fill, maybe a small compressor capable of filling a cylinder with 4500psi in a matter of minutes at a lower cost than what you might expect to pay from a company like Bauer, would be more ideal for the mass market.

What do you guys think about a compressor system that could do the above but for around $2000-$3500?  Would this solution be too expensive for home use?

[NinjaPaintballRay]

Here is some feed back for you.

I like the idea of your 90 ci Cylinder and may well purchase one in the near future. My primary use will be to use at the range tethered to allow me to shoot from the bench longer without having to stop to refill. The problem I see (or at least an inconveinance) is that the end with the foster Q/D that attaches to the gun has the bleeder and block attached. That would induce a lot of stress on the foster fitting as well as the hose. If you could move the block/bleeder to the end that attaches to the cylinder. That could be avoided. Of course that could probably be easily accomplished by the end user rearranging the fittings.

I use a Shoebox compressor and really enjoy the freedom it provides. I am currently filling small 3000psi aluminum SCBA 10 minute "Escape" cylinders. These reculated cylinders that you will be offering would be an improvement on my set up.

It would be dificult for me to justify a $2500 compressor over the $650 I bought. I already had a shop compressor and the SCBA cylinders where free. Another $165 to Joe for fittings to fill and I was set. Didn't even consider the $1100 Freedom8. I would use the difference to purchase extra cylinders to keep full. Shoot as I pleased and rotate the cylinders through filling as necesary.

We PCPers are cheap when it comes to filling. I could by a really nice rifle with $2500...if not 2 or 3.

Hey guys.  Just getting ready to wrap up and go home for the night.  If anyone posts after I leave, i'll make sure to respond when I get back to the office in the morning.  We're getting hit with some heavy snowfall here in Chicago and I dont want to be trapped at work all night

The fittings we have on our products are properly rated at either 3000psi or 5000psi, depending on the application.  These are manufactured by Foster Manufacturing and they were tested to NFPA/T2.6.1 ANNEX C which is from the National Fluid Power Association.  The 5000psi QD has a 5,000psi working pressure and a 20,000psi minimum burst pressure.  The 3000psi QD has a 3000psi working pressure with a 12,000 psi minimum burst pressure.  Since our company is part of the ASTM sub-committee that helps set standards in paintball, we take liability issues very seriously and make sure our products are properly rated and tested/certified.

We were thinking the same thing on the retail price of a possible home compressor setup and thank you for giving us your feedback on this.  At even $2500, I understand that this system would be pretty expensive compared to the Shoebox system.  I think it would really boil down to how quickly someone wants to fill their bottles, pricing, and easy of use when looking at compressors.  Not sure if we'll get into this realm but its something we're looking at.

If you're more worried about price and you do have a readily available place to get a 4500psi fill, then our setup might be something to look into.  At a rough cost of $300 + $5-$7 for a fill, that should significantly reduce any up front costs if the person does not want to use a 3000psi rated scuba tank system or the Shoebox or a large 44 or 88cf SCBA bottle.

Everyone - I want to thank you again for participating in this discussion and lending us a hand.  Have a great night and i'm looking forward to reading more responses in the morning

[Rescue35]

For some people (small shops, groups, and smiths) a ~$2500 electric stand alone compressor would be ideal. I'd probably jump on one if I where looking at retiring or otherwise being able to shoot ALOT.

The compressor that feeds a shoebox kicks on less frequently than when using a nail gun regularly. Much less than when using die grinders or impact wrenches.

[Gertrude]

Rob,
No problem, and no worries... we're good ! Really !

  I never intended to paint a dark picture, and certainly not imply any negativity.
Thank you for recognizing that. I also recognized your honest desire to get real world feedback.
 That is what's most important when trying to bring a product to market. (I'm a small business owner too.)

Sure there are many options, and combinations that will work for some, and not so well for others.
 Some of them costing more than others.
 You have received some very valuable suggestions already. Yeah, I agree that the valve block should be moved closer to the cylinder.
In fact, (and if possible), could it be manufactured so that the cylinder simply mounts into the valve block ? i.e.- no hose between cylinder and block.
 AGers are generally the "tinkering type".
We actually ENJOY altering manufacturer's design's, and modifying products and equipment to our needs and preferences.
 (and those of us who walk on "the  Dark Side" are the very worst ! LOL!)

 The GTA is about as perfect a place you could come to, to get these types of suggestions and ideas.
Consider sending a unit or two on loan, to one of the Admins here on the GTA.
 I'm quite sure the guys who meet up at some of the "Fun Shoots", would be thrilled to test it out, and provide unbiased reviews.

Also consider your marketing strategies, and how to get the best exposure and recognition.
 Think about some things that we hold in high value and honorable gestures.
 WW programs, Youth programs, and Raffles come to mind.

I wish you the very best, and for your products great success.

Ron

[rsterne]

I agree on the comments about having the bleed valve closer to the tank, and just a hose leading to the gun.... In fact, a 1-piece assembly that screwed onto the regulator and incorporated the pin-valve control and a bleeder would be a nicer arrangement.... If it had an adjustable regulator and a GOOD gauge for the output pressure, it could then work for a variety of guns.... The other option is to eliminate the regulator completely, put in a flow restrictor and/or an easy to operate needle valve and just fill the gun manually to whatever pressure you want.... All you need is a way to attach to the tank (directly), a male Foster with check for filling the tank (and a 7.5K burst disc), a needle valve to regulate the flow rate (and/or a flow restrictor) with a good gauge (1.5" minimum with 100 psi increments, 3500 psi scale, like they use on hand pumps) on the downstream side, a bleed valve, (OK, a 3.5K burst disc for safety, surely they can be custom made) and a hose ending in a female Foster.... Most of us fill that way now from a SCUBA or SCBA tank, and there is something to be said for the simplicity and reliability of not having a regulator to fail.... In addition, there is no regulator to reset when changing from a 2000 psi Disco to a 3000 psi MRod, for example.... just stop filling at the appropriate pressure for the gun....

RE the compressor, I'm thinking that something in between a Freedom 8 Shoebox and a full blown SCUBA compressor (but without the need for breathable quality air) might be a better bet.... If you're trying to sell mostly to the guys running Paintball centers, who want to fill a bank of 300 CF tanks for refilling smaller ones, that's a whole different story.... A few airgun guys might be prepared to spend over $2000 to get 15 minute fills, I wouldn't, even though I live 3 hours away from the nearest SCUBA fill station.... I can live with my ShoeBox and a SCUBA tank (barely).... If it was possible to get a compressor that would put out 10-20 CF per hour at up to 4500 psi, and the price was more in the $1000-1500 range, then I'd be very interested.... A compressor doing 16 CF per hour could fill your 90CI tank / fill station in an hour from empty, and 20 minutes to top up from 3000 psi (or 35 min. from 2000).... It could top up an 88 CF SCBA tank from 3000 psi to 4500 in less than 2 hours.... I'm sure THAT would be plenty fast enough for 99% of airgunners.... and might well enhance the sale of your portable fill station....

Bob