How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank



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Offline pcpvietnam

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How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« on: December 20, 2012, 11:25:34 AM »
Dear all,

I bought a Ninja Paintball PRO 90ci/4500psi Carbon Fiber Compressed Air Tank. But output standard max 800psi. I want change output pressure to 1.600psi.

Pls, help me.

Thanks all





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Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2012, 12:21:39 PM »
The regulator spring will have to be changed out for Belleville Washers.... Here is a chart I did using my regulator, but it is really only good as a guide, regs seem to vary a lot....



The standard Belleville stack is:

) ) () () () () ( ( ||

Bob
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Offline Pellethuntr

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Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2012, 12:25:11 PM »

The standard Belleville stack is:

) ) () () () () ( ( ||

Bob

Can you explain this a little more? I keep seeing it pop up but I don't understand it  ???
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Offline Pellethuntr

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Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2012, 12:27:23 PM »


And also, do you have pics of what you did to get those pressures? And what are cup washers? Sorry for all the questions
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Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2012, 12:32:30 PM »
Belleville washers are also called disc springs.... They are a shallow metal cup that flattens under load.... That diagram is showing which direction the cup is facing (the straight lines indicate flat shims).... Some Ninja regs use thinner bellevilles on the ends (0.022") but most of their regs use 0.032" for the middle ten bellevilles.... I recently saw a 2000 psi reg. that used eight 0.047" bellevilles.... so go figure....

The stack of washers replaces the coil spring inside the regulator.... It sounds like you have never had a reg apart, I suggest you do some studying, they can be dangerous.... The first thing you have to do is drain the tank to ZERO air pressure, of course....

Bob
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
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Offline Pellethuntr

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Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2012, 12:37:59 PM »
Belleville washers are also called disc springs.... They are a shallow metal cup that flattens under load.... That diagram is showing which direction the cup is facing (the straight lines indicate flat shims).... Some Ninja regs use thinner bellevilles on the ends (0.022") but most of their regs use 0.032" for the middle ten bellevilles.... I recently saw a 2000 psi reg. that used eight 0.047" bellevilles.... so go figure....

The stack of washers replaces the coil spring inside the regulator.... It sounds like you have never had a reg apart, I suggest you do some studying, they can be dangerous.... The first thing you have to do is drain the tank to ZERO air pressure, of course....

Bob

You are correct, I have never had a reg apart.. I have one on the way to play with and I thought I would get ahead of myself and learn how to mod it to my needs before I get it.. So what you're saying is that a certain number of washers replaces the stock coil spring??

Where can I get the correct size washers? I looked at McMasters but they have a lot of options  ??? ???
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 12:42:34 PM by Pellethuntr »
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Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2012, 12:50:42 PM »
Here is the chart from their website.... sorry for the poor layout.... The thicknesses and part numbers (for stainless) are in bold....

0.317" 0.625" 0.022" 0.042" 0.010" 70 105 12 9712K65 $3.92 12 9713K65 $8.34
0.317" 0.625" 0.032" 0.048" 0.008" 145 260 12 9712K66 $3.97 12 9713K66 $6.61
0.317" 0.625" 0.047" 0.059" 0.006" 300 600 12 9712K67 $5.37 12 9713K67 $11.11

You will also need a selection of flat shims, 5/8" OD x 3/8" ID.... this link may help.... http://www.mcmaster.com/#round-shims/=kocl5p

Bob
  • Coalmont, BC, Canada
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1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), .22 QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Bench PCP, 6mm Regulated PCP and .257 Unregulated, Three BRods.

Offline Pellethuntr

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Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2012, 01:03:58 PM »
Here is the chart from their website.... sorry for the poor layout.... The thicknesses and part numbers (for stainless) are in bold....

0.317" 0.625" 0.022" 0.042" 0.010" 70 105 12 9712K65 $3.92 12 9713K65 $8.34
0.317" 0.625" 0.032" 0.048" 0.008" 145 260 12 9712K66 $3.97 12 9713K66 $6.61
0.317" 0.625" 0.047" 0.059" 0.006" 300 600 12 9712K67 $5.37 12 9713K67 $11.11

You will also need a selection of flat shims, 5/8" OD x 3/8" ID.... this link may help.... http://www.mcmaster.com/#round-shims/=kocl5p

Bob

So there is no "standard" stack of washers to get to a certain psi? It is all trial and error?
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Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2012, 01:12:50 PM »
There are several "standard" stacks that work, have a look at my graph.... If you want 1600 psi, you could use twelve 0.032" bellevilles and about 0.020" of shims.... or ten 0.032" with an 0.022" on each end and about 0.040" of shims.... or ten 0.032" with a 0.022" on one end and about 0.060" of shims....

Understand that the actual shim thickness you need will vary depending on the actual stiffness of the bellevilles you get.... It becomes a trial and error deal for the fine tuning.... Also, your regulator will have a 1.8K burst disc on the downstream side.... If you get too close to 1800 psi you will blow that disc and I guarantee it will scare the he!! out of you.... 1600 psi is pushing it with a 1.8K disc.... You can replace it with a 3K burst disc, but that may be too high to protect the gun in the event of a regulator failure.... Have you made sure the gun you plan on using it on is safe at 1600 psi?....

Bob
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1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), .22 QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Bench PCP, 6mm Regulated PCP and .257 Unregulated, Three BRods.

Offline Pellethuntr

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Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2012, 01:14:40 PM »
There are several "standard" stacks that work, have a look at my graph.... If you want 1600 psi, you could use twelve 0.032" bellevilles and about 0.020" of shims.... or ten 0.032" with an 0.022" on each end and about 0.040" of shims.... or ten 0.032" with a 0.022" on one end and about 0.060" of shims....

Understand that the actual shim thickness you need will vary depending on the actual stiffness of the bellevilles you get.... It becomes a trial and error deal for the fine tuning.... Also, your regulator will have a 1.8K burst disc on the downstream side.... If you get too close to 1800 psi you will blow that disc and I guarantee it will scare the he!! out of you.... 1600 psi is pushing it with a 1.8K disc.... You can replace it with a 3K burst disc, but that may be too high to protect the gun in the event of a regulator failure.... Have you made sure the gun you plan on using it on is safe at 1600 psi?....

Bob

Yes, I am planning to use mine on my Disco while out in the field.. So I am wanting a 2,000 psi output, I will have to change the burst disc
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Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2012, 01:22:47 PM »
Since you will be watching the gauge on the gun during filling, that should be OK.... If you were tethering while shooting and had a regulator failure, then 3000 psi into the gun would be possible.... Unlikely to cause a catastrophic failure if the valve screws are in good shape.... but pushing it....

Bob
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1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), .22 QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Bench PCP, 6mm Regulated PCP and .257 Unregulated, Three BRods.

Offline Pellethuntr

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Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2012, 02:37:02 PM »
Since you will be watching the gauge on the gun during filling, that should be OK.... If you were tethering while shooting and had a regulator failure, then 3000 psi into the gun would be possible.... Unlikely to cause a catastrophic failure if the valve screws are in good shape.... but pushing it....

Bob

Thanks for the info Bob.. I am sure I will be needing more of your help when the time comes  ::) ::)
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Offline Motorhead

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Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2012, 02:40:50 PM »
Can I add a question here ?

I recently acquired one of the Benjamin 72cu in bottles with a 2k regulator attached.
+ I wish to make the Reg INOPERATIVE so 3K in is 3K out so I can have a field fill bottle for my M-rod.

Can this be done and done safely ?
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Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2012, 04:24:12 PM »
Yes you can.... Drain the bottle completely, remove the bonnet of the regulator, and fit either solid shims or a spacer to hold the piston off the seat so that the air pressure on the output side will not cause the piston to seal.... The pin valve will still keep the air from leaking out, and provided your fill system allows you to operate that pin valve, and bleed the air hose to your MRod, you should be good to go....

Note, however, that many of the ASA adapters that are designed for CO2 pressures will not operate at 3000 psi, the loads on the valve may cause it to lock up and you can't turn it off.... Some might even be unsafe.... Any complete filling system for PCPs requires fittings and hoses of at least a 3000 psi safe operating pressure, including a fill valve that will operate at that pressure (both on AND off), and some way to bleed the air in the hose so that the female Foster fitting can be removed safely from the gun....

Bob
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Offline pcpvietnam

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Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2012, 08:45:44 PM »
The regulator spring will have to be changed out for Belleville Washers.... Here is a chart I did using my regulator, but it is really only good as a guide, regs seem to vary a lot....

The standard Belleville stack is:

) ) () () () () ( ( ||

Bob


Thanks for the infor Bob, i will handdo as your guide, and I am sure I will be needing more of your help when the time comes.

But, made sure the regulator plan on using it on is safe at 1600 psi?....

Thank Bob again
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Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2012, 01:39:53 AM »
All the Ninja regulator bodies I have seen are identical from 850 psi to 2500....

Bob
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1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), .22 QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Bench PCP, 6mm Regulated PCP and .257 Unregulated, Three BRods.

Offline pcpvietnam

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Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2012, 11:55:27 AM »
All the Ninja regulator bodies I have seen are identical from 850 psi to 2500....

Bob


Thank Bob

I will start hand do pcp air gun homemade at tomorrow, and will post picture when finish.

Thank again
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Offline Scotchmo

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Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2012, 06:03:56 PM »
Here is the chart from their website.... sorry for the poor layout.... The thicknesses and part numbers (for stainless) are in bold....

0.317" 0.625" 0.022" 0.042" 0.010" 70 105 12 9712K65 $3.92 12 9713K65 $8.34
0.317" 0.625" 0.032" 0.048" 0.008" 145 260 12 9712K66 $3.97 12 9713K66 $6.61
0.317" 0.625" 0.047" 0.059" 0.006" 300 600 12 9712K67 $5.37 12 9713K67 $11.11

You will also need a selection of flat shims, 5/8" OD x 3/8" ID.... this link may help.... http://www.mcmaster.com/#round-shims/=kocl5p

Bob
Bob,

I plan on ordering some of these for a future regulator project and plan on fine tuning the regulator to fill my Maurader.

There is another way that can sometimes work without ordering additional belleville washers. The 48ci paintball tank that I got of eBay came with a regulator set to about 800psi output.  It came with belleville washers in the generic regulator. I was going to use it to charge my B50 rifle and needed 1600 psi. I rearranged the belleville washers in a series-parallel combination in order to increase the spring rate. And then used some SS washers from the hardware store to shim it.

I ended up with 1630psi output. It did reduce the total throw of the belleville stack but it still seems to work OK.

The following link has some easy to understand info on calculating the spring rates for belleville washer stacks:

http://springipedia.com/belleville-washers-stacking.asp
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 06:13:18 PM by Scotchmo »
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Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2012, 07:14:55 PM »
I've seen that link before.... I would advise caution when mixing different numbers of Belleville washers in a stack.... One of the diagrams in that article shows a stack containing 2, 1, 3, and 2 bellevilles.... I realize it's just for the purpose of showing how to calculate the spring rate.... but assuming all the bellevilles are the same rate/thickness, by the time the stack of 3 has moved very far, the single belleville will have gone flat and likely even reversed, damaging it.... I've seen that happen in regulators.... I would recommend that you use either all singles, all doubles, etc, to prevent this from happening.... The exception would be what Ninja do by adding an extra belleville washer to one or both ends.... Since the majority of the stack are singles, it acts like a stack of singles but stiffer at the ends.... so no damage can occur.... If what Scotchmo did was rearrange all the bellevilles in pairs and then shim the end, that would be a good solution.... eg:

going from this.... ) () () () () ( .... to this.... )) (( )) (( )) |||| ....

would double the flat load, give four times the spring rate, and cut the travel in half.... It would require about 0.12" of shims to take up the vacant space.... It would be better to add another two pairs of bellevilles to end up with this.... )) (( )) (( )) (( )) .... The rate would be 2.86 times the original, the flat load still double, and the travel 7/10ths.... It would be easier to adjust.... Of course it would require more bellevilles....

Bob
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Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
Airsenal:
1750 CO2 Carbine, .177 Uber-Pumper, .22 Uber-Carbine, .25 Discovery, 2260 PCP 8-shot Carbine, 2260 HPA (37 FPE), 2560 HPA (52 FPE), .22 QB79 HPA, Disco Doubles in .22, .25 & .30 cal, "Hayabusa" Custom PCP Project (Mk.I is .22 & .25 cal regulated; Mk.II is .224, .257, 7mm, .308 & .357; Mk.III is .410 shotgun and .458 cal), .257 "Monocoque" Bench PCP, 6mm Regulated PCP and .257 Unregulated, Three BRods.

Offline Scotchmo

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Re: How to change output pressure on a regulator ninja tank
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2012, 07:11:09 PM »
Bob,

That is exactly what I did:
went from this.... ) () () () () ( ....
to this.... )) (( )) (( )) |||| ....

It works Ok and gives 1630psi but seems a little sticky some times. I just ordered a dozen of the .032 and .047 belleville washers as well as some .002 and .010 shims. Also some Krytox 205 to lubricate the piston and orings. I hope to get it set for a more precise 1600psi.
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