My Version of the Millenium Pumper

[rsterne]

Yep, I'm out of date, and I apologize.... Like you say, if the market was there, both those and the Millenium Pumper and/or Carbine would be available for purchase....

Bob

[YEMX]

Bob i might have missed something but Numerous SSPs have been built to 12fpe with not much cocking effort.. heres Phils who is also a member here

james perotti and a few others have also built 12fpe SSps. if there was a larger market im sure wed see all kinds of multistage SSPs.. but there isnt

Are there any links to these builds?  This is the first I'm seeing it, and I'm extremely interesting in building a SSP 12 fpe rifle

[Rob M]

Phil has a few videos on his yt page i think .. james perottis is here

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/thegreencrosmanforum/here-is-james-perotti-s-ssp-pictures-stunning-t44499.html

the paradigm which was never mass produced  is here



there were a few more produced in the mid 90s but the names are not popping into my head.

Are there any links to these builds?  This is the first I'm seeing it, and I'm extremely interesting in building a SSP 12 fpe rifle
[/quote]

[Rob M]

the bowkett was another one

https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=118868.20

the parker hale dragon can also be found in that thread with a sophisticated linkage

[LegionAir]

Theres also a guy on YouTube that achieved 16 fpe with a SSP. He dressed her up nice too, in a nice FT style wood stock. Too bad it hasn’t come to the market yet

[Rob M]

Theres also a guy on YouTube that achieved 16 fpe with a SSP. He dressed her up nice too, in a nice FT style wood stock. Too bad it hasn’t come to the market yet

saw that.. if he reached out to the bigger companies it kinda proves they have no interest.. for what reason idk

[LegionAir]

saw that.. if he reached out to the bigger companies it kinda proves they have no interest.. for what reason idk

He claims that it only costs him about $250 in raw materials to build it. That’s with a walnut stocks. Now, if a big manufacturer got their hands on it they could cut that cost in half by using cnc machines. If a 16fpe SSP was brought to market at $300-400, I would rather buy it than a ATI Nova freedom. SSPs seem easier to work on than the problematic seals of the ATI pump

[Rob M]

With China in the mix spa or crosman could likely make on for 50 dollars each .. so there would be good margin. the catch being that theyd have to make 10s of thousands of them to get the prices low.. likewise theyd have to anticipate 10s of thousands of sales. which apprently they dont..  Walmart springers sell soo many its actually amazing how cheap the refurbs go for.. Kinda demonstrates how cheaply theyre being made to begin with.. From an amatuer machinist standpoint , when looking at a red ryder on the shelves for 24.99 its just mind bending they can make all the precision parts needed, then  package it , ship it , give walmart a cut , and still make a profit.

[rsterne]

I don't see how using a CNC will reduce the cost of the raw materials, only bulk purchasing can do that.... The $250 for raw materials, including the walnut for the stock, I would assume would not include the time to machine the parts (ie the term "raw").... Yes, CNC machines can make parts in much less time, but they are many more times the price, so have to charge more per hour to pay for themselves....

Tooling up to mass produce such a niche gun as a custom SSP is likely just not worth the cost and risk for the limited sales potential.... The original .25 Carbine MSP that I built, however, would use mostly existing Crosman/Benjamin parts.... Even then, there was no interest, even with all the development work done, and the details spelled out in the thread, all at no charge.... Go figure !!!!

Bob

[LegionAir]

@Rob M It is mind boggling that a Red Ryder can cost 24 bucks considering if you were to try and make one you’d be hard pressed to pay $24 for materials let alone the hours of labor. Amazing what big corporations can do with cnc machines and bulk pricing

[Rob M]

yes.. economies of scale is fascinating..Id love to see how fast the chinese can make a wooden stock .. I know they have 4 axis axis machines that do all the hogging work but what about sanding , staining , clearcoating , etc..Not to mention some wood stocks go on 99 dollar guns..

[LegionAir]

@rsterne Using a cnc machine will not reduce cost of material. When I mentioned a large company making them on CNC’s I assumed that every large company buys in bulk,  I didn’t see the need to bring it up.
The cost of cnc machines would be a factor for a certain amount of time depending on how much/fast they can generate profits.
After the initial cost is covered, whew! some serious profits start rolling in; it also gives them the leverage to offer their products at the lowest price possible, as seen with the $24 red ryder
Rsterne, I am a fan of your work on the pumpers especially the millennial pumper. If I remember correctly you said it could be configured to put out 12 fpe with one pump! I would gladly pay $400-$500 for such a pumper.
It’s blows my mind that no one has picked that up, being that you can make it from crosman parts! Now, I could understand if it was a complicated differential piston pumper that this Hawaiian guy made some years back, but your .25 MSP is a practical product that should be brought to market IMO.
Out of curiosity, why do you consider the MSP a niche gun?

[LegionAir]

@Rob M I’m going to have to put that on the bucket list: Fly to China to see the production methods in their airgun factories

[Rob M]

@Rob M I’m going to have to put that on the bucket list: Fly to China to see the production methods in their airgun factories

its already on mine!

[YEMX]

...The original .25 Carbine MSP that I built, however, would use mostly existing Crosman/Benjamin parts.... Even then, there was no interest, even with all the development work done, and the details spelled out in the thread, all at no charge.... Go figure !!!!

Bob

Oh, I don't know about that Bob, I still plan on building my own- It's just that my machines still aren't up and running yet! 

Or did you mean "no interest" from Crosman?

[rsterne]

I meant that I consider the SSP to be a niche gun.... and yes, Rob, I meant no interest by Crosman....

Bob

[LegionAir]

My mistake, I meant to write:” Why do you consider the SSP a niche gun?

[Rob M]

short story regarding the SSP.

in 1995 Gm rolled out the EV1 electric car.. One year later they rounded up all the cars and crushed em.. The car had nothing wrong with it , it functioned just like a telsa nowadays as far as charging and so on.. AS it turned out , the cost of educating the consumer on electric vehicles was more than the cost to actually make them.. In other words, since the public didnt understand the process of driving and living with the EV1 there was no point in making more or maintaining the existing ones for many years to come..
 Most airgunners are casuals  , they enjoy walmart shelf guns.. They have no conception of an SSP or its benefits.. Half this forum might not understand the mechanical aspect of an ssp or the accuracy and consistency potential ( better than a PCP fyi)
So theres no point in rolling out a 400 dollar gun that takes one stroke when the 89.99 springer next to it also takes one stroke.
There are numerous inventions out there better than what the public uses everyday , but if Joe public doesnt understand it the value is zero.

[LegionAir]

I see where you’re coming from. But I look at rifles like the Diana 48-56 with its side lever and think this SSP is not much different than a side lever Diana in that they both have clunky cocking mechanisms. I could imagine the criticisms guys had about the side levers when they first hit the market. I just think that if a clunky Diana side lever can be accepted into the AG community there’s hope for the SSP and MSP. Perhaps, they were accepted so easily because of Diana’s rock solid reputation for producing heirloom quality pieces. Especially if what you say is true about the SSP being more accurate and consistent than pcps. A rifle like that would be a real eye opener at FT matches. Maybe if Greg Suave was to win a few FT matches with an SSP it would draw enough interest from the AG community

[Rob M]

yea.. the SSP design has advantages over almost all other designs..AS for the diana reference , In the springer realm  , sidelevers and underlevers are held in high regard due to the fixed barrel.. not necessarily the ease of operation.. I dont think anyone would take issue with the operation of an ssp at all , but explaining to them why theyre gonna cost extra would be an issue. Lets not forget plenty of SSPs are available right now , from daisy 953s all the way up to the older anshunz rifles costing 600-1300 used.. also the FWB 601 . all are target guns though and lack the power for hunting ( aside from birds maybe