Springer Tuning Questions what lube on the compression cylinder wall? Any tips?

[bradyman1]

I just noticed that there is some sort of rubber, plastic style washer on the spring guide and it is cracked. Can I replace it with steel or brass? The guide is plastic and the cone spacer on top is steel.

 

 

[Bryan Heimann]

Wow.  Looks like I caught a case of foot-mouth.  Charlie, sorry for throwing that out there about the moly in conjunction with your name.  I didn't even know what superlube is, and I just assumed that anybody that knows anything about spring guns uses moly exclusively, maybe silicon oil to ease installation of the seal.  I guess that's what I get for being a Mr. Know-it-all.  Also, Bradyman, i apologize for misinforming you.  I guess I have a lot more to learn than I thought.

[bradyman1]

No problem Brian. We all have a lot to learn, just about different subjects

[pappa]

Here are a couple of quick and dirty sources that I have used for Superlube w/PTFE:

[PakProtector]

If teflon and non-flamability are important as y'all say they are for upper chamber lube they why( besides the few $/gun price ) has nobody used Krytox GPL 205 grease? Read some of the application notes on that stuff; it was *MADE* for the use springers put it to...
cheers,
Douglas

[Bryan Heimann]

That stuff looks pretty good to me.  Best you can do is try it, no way that stuff could be any worse than what some of these guns are shipped with.  I'm really interested in the results of such a test.

[CharlieDaTuna]

Hey .. not a problem Bryan. 

 One of the best reasons PakProtector (Douglas) as with so many other things, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  All of the lubes normally recommended for springers are tried and true and have been used by myself and other pro-tuners as well as a great many other DIYers over a period of many many years. They have proven to be about as good as it gets in springers, they don't fail and are not expensive. The guesswork has been taken out of it and the testing and evaluation has been done over the years by some of the best airgun mechanics there ever was. 

The question is my mind is why you seem to be pressing Krytox GPL 205 grease.   I looked at it and it certainly does not impress me, is very expensive, $25.00 and up for 1/2 ounce and doesn't appear to provide anything that's going to improve what is already being used by most of the people that work on guns now.  Why would or should anybody change?    My suggestion is that anybody that reads this, stick to the old proven and true. Ya can't go wrong there.

 And until something has been tested in several hundred guns over a period of time and positive meaningful results established, I wouldn't even consider it.

And to those that read this ... stick with what you know works and you will not wonder what went wrong.

CDT

[Bullit]

Wow...$25.00 answered that question to me !   
I use Superlube in the small bottle (4oz), and it's only $7 at Home Depot.   You can also use it to thin the thick factory grease in your fishing reels and makes them work much better.   Catfishermen make messes of them so I've gone thru a couple bottles...

[CharlieDaTuna]

Hey Mike... it should be the SuperLube w/PTFE grease. I didn't even know that they made it and have never seen it in an oil form.

CDT

[Bullit]

Yeah Bob.   They come in a little 4 oz application bottle.  Synthetic oil w/suspended PTFE additive, same as the grease.   Now it's not a fine machine oil, like a sewing/business machine oil, but is good stuff.   Home Depot here has it.  You might take a look for it.     Mike
Edit:   Bottle P/N 51004

[D14Jeff]

The Moly and SuperLube are two completely different lubes that have their own purposes.  The SuperLube is used as and for part of the assembly process whereas the Moly is used as the true ongoing lube for the gun over a long period of time. The Moly is a must.    SuperLube is great for installing piston and seating the piston seal against the cylinder walls as it is being installed and and does help fill the imperfections with the Teflon, but it has no where near the lubing life and quality of the Moly.   It is very important that the Moly does not have a hi viscosity or thin carrier.

Shhh ... don't tell anybody     but one of my secrets when tuning was to apply the SuperLube on the walls and then install the piston and seal, move it in and out the distance of travel in the compression chamber needed about a dozen times, remove the piston, wipe out the cylinder, Moly lube the the piston as usual part of the procedure and finally install it. But it is important that the cylinder has been deburred well before doing this or you will surely cut the seal. ...........................................................
CDT

thanks for planting this in the forum for me to dig up later . hehehe . and good to know about JM moly vs. Krytox that i've read comments about . as for the actual spring lube JM recommends " ...... Use Heavy tar on OEM guns where the guides and spring have a poor fit. Heavy tar is best at dampening. ...... " . which would seem to apply to the hatsan springers and the 34/350 "clones by xisco , and umarex/ruger .... . do you concur on that ? and what's the best application method ? a thin amount barely painted on the spring with a small art paint brush ? or spider webbing it on heavier with little strands running from coil to coil ? or some other method ?

and what to do on the spring ends . what lube do you recommend ?
also interested in your thoughts on using a piece of 2 liter soda bottle in the piston between it and the spring . i'm sure you'd use something much more professional , but is the premise sound ?

thanks .

[nced]

Ok, I know it has been discussed a million times but here it goes. I will clean, and crosshatch the compression cylinder. I will apply moly to the spring ends, piston, and moving parts of the cocking system. I will use silicone oil to help aid in the installation of the seal with a very thin film of silicone oil on the seal edge.

The question.. Can I run an extremely thin film of Moly on the compression cylinder wall or do I need to use Superlube, and if so do I use the oil version or the grease version?

The gun in question is a Walther Falcon Hunter .25.

Anything else I am forgetting? I got this info from the CDT tuning guide.

For decades piston guns have been successfully maintained by minerial oil based dieseling molly lubes and it does work well when used appropriately in minute amounts. One sure way to make a springer poi dependent on the shooting temperature is to use enough thick molly "tar" to kill spring twang/vibration because the stuff will change viscosity as the temp changes which affects the action of the piston. This applies to all "dinosaur based greases" regardless of the additives IMHO!

For a couple decades I also used only molly paste sparingly applied, then a few years ago I decided to try "diesel-less shooting" and started lubing my piston seal/piston/compression area with powdered graphite after stripping of all oils/grease. This worked just fine without issue, however since I use a home turned aluminium oring sealed piston cap in place of a factory piston seal I was a bit concerned about electrolysis between the steel piston, aluminium cap, powdered graphite, and moisture in the atmosphere. I actually did some experiments where I bolted together a steel washer and aluminium washer with powdered graphite between, then soaked the assembly in water, then set it on a shelf to dry for 3 months. After the test period I disassembled the assembly and found that the clamped together surfaces were perfectly good with only discolored aluminium and no pitting.   

I kept the "non-dieseling approach"  for a couple seasons using powdered graphite till I found the aerospace lube called Dupont Krytox or the Euro version called Ultimox. Finding that the Krytox/Ultimox is an excellent metal to metal lube as well as an excellent rubber/plastic lube (molly paste isn't such a good "non-steel" lube)..........plus it's completely non-dieseling, I've been using the Krytox/Ultimox ever since (a couple years now) and I've been using Krytox for ALL internal lubing of my R9!

Anywhoo....bottom line, I really wasn't pleased with the "dieseling properties" of any "dinosaur based lubes" regardless of the additives and I'm glad that I learned about the "Krytox stuff" from reading some airgun forums!

[Bryan Heimann]

I don't put anything on the cylinder wall.  I smear moly on the piston, behind the piston seal and around the back end of the piston.  This will keep too much of the lube from getting in front of the piston seal, where it will combust.  I leave the piston seal itself dry.  It is better for the gun in the long run and puts the lube where it is most important.  Metal to metal contact is most likely to occur at the rear edge of the piston, and the smear of lube behind the piston seal provides a tiny amount of fuel for combustion every time you cock the gun.  In case you are worried about corrosion, firing a few  shots will get flick and smear the lube all over inside the tube.  So just smear a little bit of moly on the spring ends, spring guide, tophat, and washers, and also around the rear end of the piston and in the front just behind the piston seal.  I don't care for tar, but it does dampen vibration and provide a nicer shot cycle.  If you use it just use a dab across the mid-section of the spring, kind of stringy looking like a spider web.  Again, just use a dab.  Over time, it will get slung all over the inside of your gun.

[YEMX]

 

[D14Jeff]

"I really wasn't pleased with the "dieseling properties" of any "dinosaur based lubes"

were you putting on too much ? FWIU when moly is properly applied dieseling is a short term issue .

" ...... just smear a little bit of moly on the spring ends, spring guide, tophat, and washers, and also around the rear end of the piston and in the front just behind the piston seal.  I don't care for tar, but it does dampen vibration and provide a nicer shot cycle.  If you use it just use a dab across the mid-section of the spring, kind of stringy looking like a spider web.  Again, just use a dab.  Over time, it will get slung all over the inside of your gun. "

thanks 

[nced]

"I really wasn't pleased with the "dieseling properties" of any "dinosaur based lubes"

were you putting on too much ? FWIU when moly is properly applied dieseling is a short term issue .

" ...... just smear a little bit of moly on the spring ends, spring guide, tophat, and washers, and also around the rear end of the piston and in the front just behind the piston seal.  I don't care for tar, but it does dampen vibration and provide a nicer shot cycle.  If you use it just use a dab across the mid-section of the spring, kind of stringy looking like a spider web.  Again, just use a dab.  Over time, it will get slung all over the inside of your gun. "

thanks 

Yep....I know how to use "molly" and when I used it the application was VERY minute and tedious to apply. For me the ONLY purpose of molly (paste or "tar") was to break metal to metal sliding contact and when "tar" was applied to the spring it was applied so thin that the coils were "stained black" without any strings at all. I got NO dieseling after a tune, even for the first shots, however when shooting on a warm day I would occasionally get a whiff of that "Greyhound bus stop smell" after the shot. No detonation or abnormal behavior, but the smell told me there was occasional burning "dinosaur lube" that was migrating in front of the piston seal from the compression area. I always used the thin stain of "tar" on the outside of the spring coils to break the metal to metal contact when the spring squirms a bit with cocking and rubs the inside of the piston. Here is a pic of a broken Maccari spring after several years of use and 10s of thousands of shots in an R9.........
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
In this pic you can see where the spring coils were polished in certain areas fro "squirm" even though the spring guide had a TIGHT fit and the shot cycle was twangless/vibrationless. By the way, this was during the time I was using tar on the spring coils and you can see the "spring colored black with tar" behind the "squirm polished coils".

For me dieseling is a thing of the past with Krytox/Ultimox and I don't have to be real fussy with applying  it either!  When I used "molly lubes" I DIDN'T tolerate dieseling even short term a fresh tune except for an occasional FAINT diesel exhaust smell!

Anywhoo......molly bearing "dinosaur lubes" have been used SUCCESSFULLY for decades in piston guns so there is nothing wrong with your approach!

[D14Jeff]

thanks NCED .
what's your thoughts on replacements for the spring ? any experience with ARH/JM springs vs's vortek springs ? or is there a brand you prefer over them ?

[nced]

thanks NCED .
what's your thoughts on replacements for the spring ? any experience with ARH/JM springs vs's vortek springs ? or is there a brand you prefer over them ?

Well.....I've used ARH springs for a couple decades now and I'm pretty pleased with them! I started with a JM soft spring kit for my R10 a couple decades ago and saved the pellet tins and boxes to keep count of the shots. Well, after 20,000 shots my R10 was still shooting 7.9 grain pellets at 905fps and it started out at 910fps a couple years before so I stopped counting shots! Since then I bought bare springs from JM, several at a time, and since they last so darn long I'm still using the last of my stash I bought over a decade before. I'm currently using a JM spring that I think was called E-1500 many years ago and it has 34 coils of .120 wire wound with a .540 ID. I've been playing with 12-13fpe tunes for my .177 R9 for a couple seasons now, however I reinstalled my last E-1500 (I think that's what it was called) yesterday and kinda going back to my roots which was 14.5fpe-ish power level. Today I was doing some shooting from my 10-53 yards at my back yard practice lane and while the R9 cocks a bit stiffer than before with a 13fpe kit and the shot cycle is a bit sharper.......I honestly couldn't tell where the current 14.5fpe tune is less accurate than with a 13fpe tune! By the way, before shooting I chronied the R9 with my ProChrono Digital and I was shooting 8.4 grain 4.52mm JSB Exacts at 880fps. At the 2014 National Field Target match I was using the same home rolled spring kit to shoot the Exacts at 865fps, however I've added a bit more spacing this time. Well.....if I added any more spacing the gun won't latch when cocking.....LOL

A few years ago when Vortek was starting to sell the PG2 kit I bought one for the R9. That spring came with ground but unclosed spring ends with a heavy steel top hat. I installed the kit and immediately found that the velocity with my oring sealed .177 R9 was much too high for my liking with 7.9 grain CPLs clocking 950fps! I broke down the R9, removed the thick heavy top hat and cut a new thinner top hat on my lathe which reduced the velocity to a more tolerable 910fps with CPLs. After shooting a 1250count box of CPLs I noticed that my trajectory had changed and the chrony registered a velocity drop from 910fps to 880fps. I broke down the R9 again and replaced my thinner home spun top hat with the original one that came with the PG2 kit and the velocity went back to 910ish fps. Two boxes of 1250 count CPLs later the velocity had again dropped down to 880fps. Bottom line, the PG2 kit spring sagged with less than 4 boxes of CPLs for a velocity drop from 950fps to 880fps. I talked to more than a couple field target shooters that tried the Vortek kits and they reported a similar velocity degrade so I reverted back to my Maccari springs stock pile in the parts bin.

In defense of Vortek, that was a very early kit with unclosed spring ends and now the spring ends are closed, ground and polished. While I have no PERSONAL experience with the current Vortek springs I've read quite a few glowing reviews so perhaps the wire and process has improved in the last few years. One thing I do like is that Vortek will supply a custom spring with user specified coils based of several different coil ODs and wire sizes. When my last ARH spring "bites the dust" I'll probably install another Vortek spring of my own OD, wire size and coil count to see if indeed they are "longer lived" than the early offering I used. 

[Charles Outdoors]

  I seem to remember someone saying that a small amount of dieseling was part of the power of a spring gun and the proper lube would make sure there was just enough there to keep it going. Been a few years since I was researching tuning, so my memory could be off.
  Anyhow this thread has become a great refresher course and I was also wanting to know what this new Krytox stuff was. Got it all in one thread without searching  . 

[D14Jeff]

thanks for sharing your experience nced  .
FWIU ...... understand dieseling isn't good . a small amount after a tune for a few to several dozen shots typically doesn't cause any real damage . but for a prolonged period or heavy dieseling it can cause damage to the piston seal and/or breach seal . it also throws off accuracy because FPS will vary greatly . just going by what i've read here .......