Springer Tuning Questions what lube on the compression cylinder wall? Any tips?

[Charles Outdoors]

Not talking about the dieseling you notice, But I remember reading something about a small amount normally occurring from very small amounts of lube on the walls. I'll have to look it up later.

[nced]

Not talking about the dieseling you notice, But I remember reading something about a small amount normally occurring from very small amounts of lube on the walls. I'll have to look it up later.

Yep true with "combusting lubes", however not so true when the R9 has been internally stripped of all "combusting lubes"!

I used only Krytox on ALL internal surfaces which (To ME) also disproves the theory that modern piston guns develop a large percentage of their velocity from combustion as I have read and "proven" by Cardew when shooting a HW35 with oil soaked leather piston seal and low velocities by modern day standards! I recently tuned my .177 R9 to shoot 8.4 grain 4.52mm JSB Exacts at 880fps using a 34 coil, .120 wire spring wound with a .540 ID and there is little/no residual "petro lubes" internally.

[Charles Outdoors]

My next question was whether you had a decrease in velocity if you had no chance of dieseling.

[nced]

My next question was whether you had a decrease in velocity if you had no chance of dieseling.

Yep.....as mentioned previously, about 10fps reduction.

When my brother switched from molly paste to dry graphite for lubing his R9 piston, piston seal, and receiver he got a similar reduction in velocity but gained a more consistent poi when the shooting sessions (or squirrel hunt) temps fluxuated more than 20 degrees. Obviously the mineral oil based molly paste was adding SOME  "diesel boost", but the CPL velocity dropping from 910fps to 900fps wasn't an issue at all since there was a more consistent poi when shooting temps varied. I do have to mention that we both have been using my home turned oring sealed piston caps for years which helps with maintaining a consistent poi.

For the last few years I've been playing with my power levels from 11.5 to 13fpe so boosting my current power level to around 14fpe plus a bit last week using only non-combusting Krytox lubes internally has shown that I really don't NEED a "10fps diesel boost" for my style of shooting!  Funny thing is that I always preferred a 12-13ish fpe power level because the R9 cocked easier, the shot cycle was a bit tamer, and I ASSUMED that the gun was easier to shoot accurately because of all this. Well....at least that's the claim of all those <12fpe pundits I've been reading lately. A couple days ago I took my R9 to my practice lane and found that my accuracy from 10 yards to 53 yards was actually very similar to when I was tuned to the 12-13ish fpe power level. Anywhoo....it remains to be seen if I stick to the higher tune level for my R9 and how my new Optisan Viper scope fares with the current tune level!

[tjk]

Not to add anything else on springer lubrication, I have found it very beneficial to wear nitrile/latex gloves when working on springers as a way of avoiding direct contact of lubes from my skin. Not that I'm too totally worried about exposure,... But get a smear of moly or black tar on your hands and you'll find out they're not that easy to wash off

[Bryan Heimann]

Question for nced- does your gun shoot noticeably flatter with the slight increase in power?  Enough that you feel like it gives you a slight advantage?

Regarding the varying and opposing theories on deiseling, I don't know if you are 100% on the money.  With the average mid-powered springer of today, a oil-soaked piston seal made of leather would result in violent detonation and extremely high, wildly fluctuating velocities and probably would break your spring within a tin of pellets.  If you were lucky that is probably all that would happen, lol.  But I do wonder, if your R9 currently running at 14.5 fpe was properly honed and lubed with superlube and moly paste per the guide from CDT, if it might shoot in the ballpark of 16 fpe.  You would probably give up a little bit of accuracy in .177 because you are already at the top end of the sweet spot the way it shoots now.  But in .20 or .22 it could potentially be an advantage.  If the extra 1-1.5 fpe gives you a noticeable advantage in trajectory.  Even an extra 5 yards would be nice insurance for hunting purposes.  Obviously between 14-16 fpe there is very little to absolutely zero real advantage in knock down power, stretch it out to 50 yards and the energy levels will probably about identical on target, maybe an extra half an fpe on target with the 16 fpe gun.  I have a .25 cal xs28m with a tune from Mike Melick, and althought they are typically a 22-23 fpe shooter in .25, after a few tins of pellets mine climbed to 27 fpe and it is pretty doggone accurate and shootable for such a powerful spring gun.  Even after a couple thousand rounds down the pipe, it still smokes just a tiny little bit.  I feel that one of the reasons it shoots so hard is because Mike has figured out that perfect balance of hone and lube, and that I am actually getting an extra 3-4 fpe purely out of perfectly balanced combustion.  And in this case, that definitely yields little bit flatter trajectory and better impact at range.  To be sure, I guess I'd have to clean the gun out and lube it with krytox, but I'm really not willing to do that because it is such an awesome rifle.  I don't want to mess around much with what Mike has done.  Just wanted to throw my own personal experience out there, for comparison...

[nced]

does your gun shoot noticeably flatter with the slight increase in power?
Nope! The difference is the fact that the gun is indeed less temperature sensitive with non-dieseling lubes!

if your R9 currently running at 14.5 fpe was properly honed and lubed with superlube and moly paste per the guide from CDT, if it might shoot in the ballpark of 16 fpe.
LOL.....now why would I want my R9 to shoot at 16fpe when my preferred power level is 13-14fpe? Keep in mind that SuperLube is simply a petro based lube with ptfe suspended particles. My question to you is.......will SuperLube "diesel violently" if you get a wad of it in front of the piston? If the gun diesels noticeably as I suspect it would then this alone is enough of an "issue" for me to stay clear of the stuff. Please review this MSDS (Material Data Safety Sheet):
http://www.super-lube.com/files/pdfs/SDS_SuperLube_%20Grease_EN.pdf
Here is a partial cut-n-paste showing some of it's ingredients......

Composition/information on ingredients
9002-84-0 Polytetrafluoroethylene 2.5-10%
Polypropylene Glycol ≤ 2.5%
9003-27-4 Polyisobutylene ≤2.5%

Chemical characterization: Mixtures Description:
Mixture of the substances listed below with nonhazardous additions.
Dangerous Components: 68611-44-9 Fumed Silica STOT SE 3, H335 2.5-10%
41484-35-9 Antioxidant Acute Tox. 3, H331 ≤2.5%
8042-47-5 Mineral Oil 10-25%
151006-63-2 Polyalphaolefin 50-100%

Please note Minerail oil content is 10-25% which is a rather large variation in this diesel prone ingredient. Anywhoo.....I PERSONALLY would prefer to go "old school" with mineral oil based molly lubes if I had a choice between the two! Do you really believe that simply lubing with a different minerial oil based lube than plain ole molly paste would increase my velocity 70fps from what I'm getting now? LOL...for decades I used molly paste as a lube and can indeed verify that my reduction in velocity using non-doeseling Krytox is only around 10fps which is insignificant and even environmental factors (like humidity and temperature) can/will give this amount of variation! You can easily test this out yourself by lubing your springer with "old school" molly paste and SuperLube and see if there is indeed a difference ASSUMING the SuperLube isn't migrating past the piston seal and dieseling.

Even after a couple thousand rounds down the pipe, it still smokes just a tiny little bit.
Hummm....this is a "feature" that I don't have and really don't want!

I feel that one of the reasons it shoots so hard
This is of ABSOLUTELY no import to my shooting since I can easily exceed my preferred muzzle velocity if I wanted WITHOUT "smoke in the hole"! I'm only interested in stability and consistency of the poi along with a useable trajectory!  LOL.....I'm currently getting 880fpe with a 8.4 JSB Exact pellet using a spring with 34 coils of relatively thin .120 wire wound with a .540 coil ID using non-dieseling Krytox! Concerning stability........when I upped my JSB Exact velocity from  830fps to 880fps using a home rolled spring kit based on the mentioned .120 wire spring I chronied the velocity (how I knew it was 880fps). The R9 then sat un-shot for two days and then I chronied the very first shot and here was the result........
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
The very next shot also measured 882fps.

Here is a recent 50 yard target I shot HFT style (sitting on a bucket resting the R9 on cross sticks) where 4 out of 5  Exacts went into a 3/8" ctc group and the second shot opening the group to 5/8" ctc...
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
Here are a couple more "Krytox lubed R9 50 yard groups" using only Krytox lubes........
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
The next 5 shots on paper.......
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
10 shots in a row in a 3/8" ctc high x 1" wide group and I'm pretty certain that the "horizontal spread" of the shots has more to do with my sitting on a bucket resting the gun on cross sticks than anything else unless it was the light variable breeze the day I was shooting!
I'm personally pleased with my "un-honed but polished receiver ID with oiled 600 wet-or-dry abrasive, non-dieseling synthetic lube, and oring sealed piston. A few months ago I experimented with a new design factory HW piston seal in my "really smooth" receiver ID using Krytox and there was very little difference between the factory piston seal velocity and my oring sealed velocity even though the R9 receiver was set up for oring sealing (600 grit hone followed by a 000 steel wool buff). LOL.....I really don't know where the "requirement of the crosshatch" originated, but it certainly is one of the unspoken rules for tunes!

To be sure, I guess I'd have to clean the gun out and lube it with Krytox, but I'm really not willing to do that because it is such an awesome rifle.  I don't want to mess around much with what Mike has done. 
and
Just wanted to throw my own personal experience out there, for comparison...
Peace my friend!!!! No harm/no foul! Changing a lube scheme to Krytox isn't really a light matter to consider because Krytox requires a rather pricey solvent to strip if you ever want to remove the stuff! LOL....this feature alone is one reason I was drawn to it after experiencing the out-gassing of the minerial oil carrier  in molly paste! Also, since Krytox is inert and won't combine with "dinosaur oil" it will leach residual "petro lubes" from minute nooks and crannies to mix with the Krytox and migrate past the piston seal. I notice this when I first started using Krytox in my R9 even though the receiver tube was stripped with brake cleaner and allowed to dry.........and at first it was a puzzle. While there was no dieseling however I would occasionally get a slight whiff of a strange smell with random shots. I broke down the R9 to find grey molly paste residue mixed with the white Krytox. I again stripped the receiver tube, relubed with Krytox and shot a box 1250 count box of CPLs, then broke the R9 down again for a "look-see" just for grins and again found a BIT of grey mixed with the white. Further inspection revealed this......
Uploaded at Snapagogo.com
You can see voids in the braze joint between the receiver "fork and tube" where molly paste was driven deeply with the heat and pressure of 10s of thousands of shots!
 

[D14Jeff]

Not talking about the dieseling you notice, But I remember reading something about a small amount normally occurring from very small amounts of lube on the walls. I'll have to look it up later.

Yep true with "combusting lubes", however not so true when the R9 has been internally stripped of all "combusting lubes"!

I used only Krytox on ALL internal surfaces which (To ME) also disproves the theory that modern piston guns develop a large percentage of their velocity from combustion as I have read and "proven" by Cardew when shooting a HW35 with oil soaked leather piston seal and low velocities by modern day standards! I recently tuned my .177 R9 to shoot 8.4 grain 4.52mm JSB Exacts at 880fps using a 34 coil, .120 wire spring wound with a .540 ID and there is little/no residual "petro lubes" internally.

seems to me that since the dieseling couldn't be controlled that it would cause the FPS spread to be huge causing significant vertical stringing , kissing accuracy bye bye . FWICT ..... a little initial dieseling seems ok , significant or long term can cause damage to the power plant .

[Bryan Heimann]

nced- you missed it my friend.  When I asked about your gun at 14.5 fpe I wasn't asking in regards to moly vs. krytox or whatever.  I want to know if the extra 1.5 fpe you have in the current state of tune with no deiseling lubes yields a flatter trajectory.  In regards to the question about a slight boost in power with a good moly based lube and proper hone, well if you read the whole thing I already alluded to how it's obviously not advantageous in a .177 that is already shooting in the sweet spot.  In .20, or .22, it might make a difference.  As far as temperature sensitivity goes, I'd like to see a comparison of them with no tar being used.  Tar is the bane of springers in cold weather, not moly.  Well, maybe it would be at sub-zero temps, but I'll probably never find out, lol. 

D14Jeff- you obviously can't control dieseling by adding oil to the chamber directly or lubing pellets.  It will never turn out the way you want it to.  But there is a long and documented history of successfully using a honed cylinder wall in conjunction with moly in the right places, and my XS28M that still smokes a little bit keeps about an 11 fps extreme spread in the velocity with JSB Kings.