Springer Tuning Questions what lube on the compression cylinder wall? Any tips?

[bradyman1]

Ok, I know it has been discussed a million times but here it goes. I will clean, and crosshatch the compression cylinder. I will apply moly to the spring ends, piston, and moving parts of the cocking system. I will use silicone oil to help aid in the installation of the seal with a very thin film of silicone oil on the seal edge.

The question.. Can I run an extremely thin film of Moly on the compression cylinder wall or do I need to use Superlube, and if so do I use the oil version or the grease version?

The gun in question is a Walther Falcon Hunter .25.

Anything else I am forgetting? I got this info from the CDT tuning guide.

[thekid]

I have used moly.
Basically burnishing it in to the receiver. Then a clean rag, to wipe out excess.
See what the group consensus is, maybe CDT will post.

[Bryan Heimann]

Yes, use moly.  Superlube is a no no in a springer.  CDT's guide tells you everything you need to know.  TheKid's method is perfect.  Spread it in the compression chamber thin and even, and wipe it all out with something like a clean dry rag on a dowel.  Enough moly will remain in the crosshatch, and the little moly you spread on the piston will keep the crosshatch loaded up.  Every time you fire it gets slung around in the tube, and every time you cock it gets spread out and the seal wipes back the excess.  Careful not to use too much or it will sludge up all over inside and you'll lose power

[bradyman1]

Thanks guys. Anyone else have any comments or tips?

[Kailua]

This is what I tried on the last lube.  If CDT or any other tuner says I am off track here.  I would be happy to hear comments.  I put a light coat as possible or automatic trans fluid on the cylinder wall.  Being that the fluid won't burn.  If there something better I am sure use it the next time.

[PakProtector]

hey-Hey!!!,
There are a few places where moly is quite important. One is at the skirt just opposite the cocking shoe, the other is at the front, just behind the seal and on the same side as cocking shoe engagement. these places are where pressure is highest from pressure required to compress the spring. If you cover the lube requirements for these two places the rest will also be taken care of almost as a side effect. I paint a bit on the inside of the tube behind the piston before I slide in the spring and trigger...and to echo nearly every other post, it does not take very much at all.
cheers,
Douglas

[CharlieDaTuna]

Not sure where I ever said the SuperLube was a no-no. SuperLube w/PTFE is probably one of the best things that you can use on the compression chamber walls. I used SuperLube w/PTFE all of the years that I tuned guns and would never use anything else on most guns. It is important (as with any other lubing) to remove any excess and that it should be a light film remaining on the wall. One of the best things about using it is that the PTFE has the ability to fill in many of the minute imperfections of the chamber. And... SuperLube w/PTFE is what is recommended in my tune guides on the website as well as in the GTA library.

Personally, I would never use or suggest ATF. It is too thin to be of much lubrication value, especially long term because it wipes away almost immediately and can/will cause extreme detonation just about like any other petroleum product. Years and years ago people used to put it (as well as Slick 50 and some other oils and additives) in the port and into the chamber to give the gun more power. Of course the springs and seals let go and they never knew why. 

A good grade of 60 or 70% Moly is hard to beat when used in a springer. It really is to the benefit to both you and your gun to pay attention to how and what you do when tuning your gun and what you use to lube your gun. I get e-mails from people that I tuned guns for 8-10 even 12 years ago telling me that their gun is still shooting as good as the day they got it back but wondering if maybe it should be tuned again. My response to them is that …. If it is still shooting well… just keep shooting it.

Very rarely did I ever have a gun returned and the reason was that I treated every gun as if it was my own and I wanted it to be the best it could be. And it was for that reason that reputation became what it was. My intent is not to blow my own horn here but it has been said by many that I am a legend in the world of airguns or in the world of springer airguns. Believe me, the only thing that I did was learn and absorb all that I could from both other pro’s and through experimentation throughout the years and then applied what I learned. And not only did I apply it, I passed it all onto others.

Bt the way...There is a copy of the Tuning Test Data that every customer got with every tune. This data spread sheet is available to anyone who wants it. It is available in the library

Excel FPS/FPE/Trigger Work Sheet - Donated by CDT

 as well as on my website in the “Airgun Info” section.

  http://www.charliedatuna.com/airgun_docs/Excel%20Chrony%20Data%20Processor.xls

CDT






 

[bradyman1]

I have used moly.
Basically burnishing it in to the receiver. Then a clean rag, to wipe out excess.
See what the group consensus is, maybe CDT will post.

Charlie,

I really appreciate your input. You are a very valuable asset to the airgun community and I doubt there are many of us airgunners who has not learned something very valuable from your willingness to share your knowledge. Would substituting Moly (I ordered the stuff from Maccari) for Superlube as shown above in Rob's post be advisable or would you suggest sticking to the Superlube?

I guess my basic question is can Moly and Superlube be used in place of each other? Or is Superlube only for the compression chamber and Moly for all the other surfaces that require lubrication?

Thanks for the help!

[Scotchmo]

I use SuperLube to prime my compression chamber walls, per CDT. The thinnest coat possible. I use my finger to squeegee out all but a thin film. I have found that it works better and is more resistant to dieseling than a thin coat of moly. Both have some volatile components that can diesel, and so does every other lube that I have tested but SuperLube is the best so far. Burnished moly might be OK, but the synthetic seals seem to like Superlube better. The moly almost feels gritty in comparison. I still use moly but usually for steel on steel applications, especially high load areas.

[Bullit]

The moly grease "sticks" & stays in place best on moving parts.  You'll see, when you get it.   keep some rags handy... That's why it's used there.   Superlube lubricant for the tube.  Not Interchangeable lubricants.    No ATF stuff.

[PakProtector]

hey-Hey!!!,
Y'all should look at the Krytox oils for the chamber wall lube task. It is nearly impossible to remove, and it won't diesel...not even a little bit. It is Daystate Air Ranger expensive, even if you get it in 1/2-oz tubes. Worth every penny still; $3-4 of lube on a $300-600 rifle is officially peanuts.

Moly is of greatest use where speed is low and pressure is high; this is where the usual behaviour of a grease being to float the two pieces apart hydrostatically isn't possible. The moly will be acting *LIKE* ball bearings then...it is a 'like' the actual behaviour is described elsewhere; Google is your friend here.
cheers,
Douglas

[bradyman1]

Thanks guys. It is becoming much more clear now. I like that, "superlube for the tube". Moly on the rest. So I will lube the tube with superlube, lubricate behind the piston seal with a VERY thin layer of Moly and lubricate spring ends and all the other moving parts with Moly.

Should I lubricate the edge of the seal that rides in the compression chamber with a very light coat of Superlube?

Just to be clear by light I mean wipe it on then wipe it clean until it is virtually all gone. Is this the correct process?

[CharlieDaTuna]

The Moly and SuperLube are two completely different lubes that have their own purposes.  The SuperLube is used as and for part of the assembly process whereas the Moly is used as the true ongoing lube for the gun over a long period of time. The Moly is a must.    SuperLube is great for installing piston and seating the piston seal against the cylinder walls as it is being installed and and does help fill the imperfections with the Teflon, but it has no where near the lubing life and quality of the Moly.   It is very important that the Moly does not have a hi viscosity or thin carrier.

Shhh ... don't tell anybody     but one of my secrets when tuning was to apply the SuperLube on the walls and then install the piston and seal, move it in and out the distance of travel in the compression chamber needed about a dozen times, remove the piston, wipe out the cylinder, Moly lube the the piston as usual part of the procedure and finally install it. But it is important that the cylinder has been deburred well before doing this or you will surely cut the seal.

A point of interest regarding Moly.

Moly comes in many grades with many different carriers. A good Moly does have a bit of a gritty feeling to it but that is the wonder of a good Molly. The less percentage of Moly, the less you can feel it and the more you will just feel the carrier. The Moly is like small microscopic ball bearings and is used in applications where two metal surfaces rub back and forth against each other and is not usually used in applications as a rule on rotating surfaces or things like bearing using cones or cups.

Good Moly is very expensive. The Moly I used for tuning was a 77% Moly used in the Aerospace industry and if I recall it was almost $170.00 for 14 oz a number of years ago.   But.... that was enough to do close to 1000 guns, would hold up and do it's job forever.   That said though, JM's Moly is as good as the everyday airgun home tuner would ever need. It is well worth paying a little extra.

CDT

[bradyman1]

Thanks for your help Bob. I will take your advice and I will be getting some Superlube. This whole lubing thing is becoming much more clear.

[CharlieDaTuna]

Just things I do ...did    Here he goes... bumping his gums again..

A quickie about lubing the piston and seal.... for what it's worth.

When mounting the seal on the piston, I would use silicone grease although you could use the SuperLube. Just remove the excess. I would apply a thin application on the back of and on the cone part of the seal then install it on the piston. Now grasp the seal and turn it back and forth on the piston several times so that the seal sets firmly and perfectly centered. 

You can use either the silicone grease or Moly on the outer edge of the seal when installing the piston in the gun. I would normally use the Moly unless it was not a parachute type seal.

The piston. Whatever you do, do not polish the piston.    I chuckle to myself every time someone writes about how they polished the piston. Self defeating.  In fact, if it has an extremely smooth or polished type surface you may want to rough it up just a little although that can be hard to do on some pistons because they are very hard steel.   Much easier to do if you have a lathe. The logic here is that the Moly will adhere to the rougher surface and will hold the Moly better and it will not fly off so readily. 

Look at the piston and see if there is any shiny surfaces where the piston may have been rubbing the chamber wall. This may be visible if the gun has some mileage on it. If so, scuff it just a little if you can and apply a light film of Molly here. You will usually see this on the upper opposite side of the cocking slot. 

Lubing the piston. The piston itself should have a coat of Molly from the back of the seated seal to about one inch behind it around the piston. Do the same with the rear of the piston. This applied lube is what is going to provide the lube for your seal and provide the fuel for the compression chamber for the life of the tune.   It should be covered well but not real heavy. Lube the cocking slot of the piston where the cocking foot/shoe rides.

Guess I've made enough noise for one day.

CDT

[thekid]

Glad you chimed in CDT.
It always helps us out...Thanks

[bradyman1]

Very, Very helpful info. Thank you very much. I think I can sucessfully tackle this beast. I am feeling much more confident now!

[bradyman1]

Does anyone know a good local source for Super lube? My local Walmart doesn't carry it.

[CharlieDaTuna]

I used to get it at Ace Hardware but I think you can also get it at most good hardware stores and they might even have it at Home Depot and Lowes also. Not 100% sure of that though. Be sure that it has PTFE though.

CDT

[bradyman1]

Ok. Thanks. I'll check Ace. If I can't find it i'll order it online.