My Next Truck Is Bulletproof!!!

[Nomadic Pirate]

You still don't get it,

the motor is superior even on the fact you could put 4 motors on a car one for each wheel, smaller, lighter, way less maintenance, significantly less problematic and prone to breaking parts that a gas engine has a ton of them, no vibration, no noise, no heat, significantly cheaper to make.

Once again the limiting factor is the battery ( for now ) because of range and because you cannot use the motor or motors to the full potential.

Once the energy delivery catches up with the motors bye bye gas engines.

[Horatio]

Other than the initial pull-away (which amounts to a drag race) I do not see an advantage for the EV in that ENERGICA EGO vs YAMAHA R6 video.  I do see a lot of side to side oscillation which makes me wonder if the electric motor is adding excess gyroscopic stability to the wheel, that is fighting direction changes.  A bit like why overly fast pellets spiral.

How many laps did those bikes do, and what would when running out of battery charge; when the ICE bike (or car) would refuel?   Perhaps a quick change battery would be a good idea.

Those weird oscillations are there because it’s a video game. They aren’t real motorcycles.

An electric motorcycle could have a launch advantage. On an ICE motorcycle you need to balance the throttle and clutch to keep between bogging down (or just not launching at peak torque) and looping out. On an electric motorcycle you don’t need the clutch (at least I don’t think you would) so it would be nice to have another variable to not need to keep track of.

I’ve had what I thought were excellent launches, the front wheel perfectly floating just above the ground. Not realizing it and not realizing my handlebars weren’t perfectly straight when the front tire kissed back down. Then it shimmied because I was holding the bars to tight instead of holding the bike with my legs and core.

[Rocker1]

Gentlemen i dont think this thread was made with the intent of a debate, right now its heading down a one way road. David

[anti-squirrel]

I see EVs being a step in the right direction.  Answer to every problem out there?  Nope, not even.  At least not for a while.  Solid-state batteries will make a difference.  And I prefer options, not this intensely personal ICE ONLY/EV ONLY debate BS that does nothing but act as an echo chamber for already biased views often resulting from political slant or other equally inane bias.

I think we all came here out of a love for airgunning, yes?

I do think EVs are improperly marketed; a focus on luxury and acceleration where it should be on range, range, and more range.  But there's also a huge market for growth, given how ICE costs have also gone nuts.  When I see the 2024 ICE Ram 1500 top-trim list price at 90k, I contemplate who will buy this.... and how it will likely end up the I LOVE ME bro-dozer mallcrawler.  And commenting on just EV 1/4 times without also identifying that as the benchmark for ICE vehicle is disingenuous and honestly, the hallmark of a troll.  Want proof EVs outperform?  NURBURGRING.   That ain't a 1/4 mile track.   

Every person I know who bemoans EV costs has clearly not bought a new vehicle in the last couple years.  Nothing is priced reasonably.  Go to GMC and build a Denali.  Go to Ford and build a stripper F-150 or Explorer.  Bottom-trim models are kind of affordable, yes.  Sort of.  But buy any higher trim and costs jump huge.  EVs kinda bypass bottom trims and go for mid-range on to top-tier. 

My next auto purchase will be an EV.  It makes practical as well as monetary sense.  Plus it has the added benefit of being one less dino-juice slurper.  I revel in the thought of using solar for a fill-up, no more oil changes, no transmission fluid flushing...   I would have loved to convert my F-150 to an EV but every time a company starts gaining traction here in the US, they focus on Fleet conversions and high-dollar owners wanting something zowee-wowee.  Hence I sold the F-150.

But in the end, I also have the mountains of data at my fingertips. 412 fleets (we've gained more customers) and all their preventive and unplanned maintenance at my fingertips, waiting for the next database query to reveal what works, what doesn't... what costs too much to keep, and what costs too much to get rid of (or in other words, replace with new)

The toughest pill to swallow in the whole EV conversation is putting aside prejudices for one power type versus another.  Then there's also building the infrastructure.  More companies are adopting the NACS standard. which helps.  This is no different than Big Hay had to do a hundred-plus years ago as ICE autos replaced horses pullin' carts.  "There's hay everywhere!  But th'ain't none o' them gas pump thangies except a few here 'n thar!"



I know down the road I'll miss the throaty rumble of my V8s (both Tahoe and Ram, the F-150 was a straight-6), but I see a lot of benefits for myself- and that's the whole point: these are just like airguns: some want the newest big-bore PCP, others want to keep their springers, even shunning gas-piston break-barrels.  While other chose self-contained PCPs with built in pumps, and yet other want an MSP or CO2 lead-flinger.  Me?  I like 'em all.  Just let me continue flingin' lead.

[Nomadic Pirate]

Other than the initial pull-away (which amounts to a drag race) I do not see an advantage for the EV in that ENERGICA EGO vs YAMAHA R6 video.  I do see a lot of side to side oscillation which makes me wonder if the electric motor is adding excess gyroscopic stability to the wheel, that is fighting direction changes.  A bit like why overly fast pellets spiral.

How many laps did those bikes do, and what would when running out of battery charge; when the ICE bike (or car) would refuel?   Perhaps a quick change battery would be a good idea.

Those weird oscillations are there because it’s a video game. They aren’t real motorcycles.

An electric motorcycle could have a launch advantage. On an ICE motorcycle you need to balance the throttle and clutch to keep between bogging down (or just not launching at peak torque) and looping out. On an electric motorcycle you don’t need the clutch (at least I don’t think you would) so it would be nice to have another variable to not need to keep track of.

I’ve had what I thought were excellent launches, the front wheel perfectly floating just above the ground. Not realizing it and not realizing my handlebars weren’t perfectly straight when the front tire kissed back down. Then it shimmied because I was holding the bars to tight instead of holding the bike with my legs and core.

The ride is just soooo much smoother, no vibrations, no heat, also with gas engines you need to play withing the right rev spectrum for that bike, downshifting, revving up and so, with and Electric Bike you cruising you twist that throttle and you gone no lag just instant power, you come out of a corner just twist that throttle and you take off, no need to find the right gear or rev spectrum,........It's just a more pleasureful ride where you can just concentrate on the road and the ride itself, I was sure I would miss the clutch and shifting gears but not so, I was sooo wrong, absolutely love the simplicity and instant response at any level.

[Horatio]

I figure around the time it makes financial sense to buy a used EV and replace the battery is around the time I’ll get one.

I’d like to refuel at home.

Maybe a used Leaf? I don’t like how connected to the internet Teslas are. I’d want my EV airgapped. After all, if they’re really so simple, why do they need constant software updates? And I don’t want the man to be able to turn it off if I didn’t support the latest thing, get the latest “vax”, etc.

[Nomadic Pirate]

I figure around the time it makes financial sense to buy a used EV and replace the battery is around the time I’ll get one.

I’d like to refuel at home.

Maybe a used Leaf? I don’t like how connected to the internet Teslas are. I’d want my EV airgapped. After all, if they’re really so simple, why do they need constant software updates? And I don’t want the man to be able to turn it off if I didn’t support the latest thing, get the latest “vax”, etc.

Agree with you on that, I want charging stations that you just pay with your card or cash no need to be connected to the net, and also my vehicle is mine I don't want anyone to be connected to it.

Anti-squirrel is right,...they are overthinking this and making it overcomplicated, keep it simple, cheaper and that will go a long way.

[anti-squirrel]

I figure around the time it makes financial sense to buy a used EV and replace the battery is around the time I’ll get one.

I’d like to refuel at home.

Maybe a used Leaf? I don’t like how connected to the internet Teslas are. I’d want my EV airgapped. After all, if they’re really so simple, why do they need constant software updates? And I don’t want the man to be able to turn it off if I didn’t support the latest thing, get the latest “vax”, etc.

Good valid points.

Seems like all the EVs are connected- but then, every new car is connected, not just EVs. 

We made a plunge to hybrids a couple years ago with our Tahoe- an 09 I got for less-than-book thanks to the original battery being 10+ years old.  Aftermarket supplied a reconditioned battery with a lifetime warranty for 2650.  No, tha's not cheap.  Heck, that's a EdGun Leshiy 2!  But I've spent equivalent on multiple airguns when my good ol' 392PA does the same job already... Know what I mean?  Plus a lifetime warranty, transferrable.  And thus our Tahoe gets 22+ MPG on the highway, and approaches 25 MPG with local driving only.

After renting Teslas, a Leaf, a Bolt, and Kona EV, I can say this: Tesla build quality is laughable.  Plasticky in the way those late-80s GM and Chrysler cars were.  Uncomfy seats, too.  The Bolt and Leaf were decent, though sluggish in comparison to the Tesla.  The Kona EV?  That's another story.  Stepping on the Go-pedal at 25 MPH still broke traction.  Comfy seats, good overall build quality.  I know Hyundai and Kia have some ICE engine issues (5 entire engine line's worth!) but otherwise, they're hitting the right buttons, including offering some legit buttons and knobs inside, not just an idiotic screen display like some iPad blocking the entire center console with controls buried 3 menus deep.  Don't get me wrong, stomping the Tesla's pedal was a blast, but the momentary thrill of OMGFAST is nothing compared to the comfort of the Bolt or Kona's seats. 

Sonja and I have done a lot of car-shopping recently- not to buy, but to inform us for when the time comes to buy... The newest PHEV (plug-in hybrid) are amazing.  Just a really high price of entry  when new.  Best bet is buy late model used, just like with ICE.  Let somebody else get hit with that depreciation, and rep the reward of their loss.  Anybody buying any brand new auto: ICE, Hybrid, PHEV, or EV, is just buying into 15 to 30% depreciation right off the bat.  It doesn't hurt more EVs come with longer warranties (Polestar, Kia, and Hyundai all offer good warranties).  Equivalent to ICE vehicles, at the very least.

Regardless on a person's pro- or anti-EV views, we are offered more choices than ever, and just as in the airgun market, more choice is better.

[lloyd-ss]

Unfortunately, EVs have become a hot button issue and there is an awful lot of mis-information flying around, some of it intention, and some of it just repeated by folks who don't do REAL fact checks. Many of the anti-EV youtube videos fall into the intentional mis-information category.

I would like to offer some of my own personal real-world experiences based on EVs and Hybrids that I personally own. A 2007 Toyota Prius, a 2022 VW ID.4, and a 2002 club car golf cart I converted to used Lithium Ion batteries from a Nissan Leaf.

The first one is cost of purchase. If you do an honest check on prices of EVs and Hybrids, and don't just cherry pick the most expensive ones, you will see that the prices are only a little more than equivalent IC vehicles. 

Operating cost. Cost-wise my VW gets the equivalent of 90 mpg if you compare the cost of the KWHrs I use compared to the gallons of gas I would have had to buy. My Electric bill is proof. I installed a charging station and have real-time electric meter monitoring so I can see how much my electric bill has increased.

Electricity distribution problems. Is that a real issue or a red herring? I set my 50 amp charger to charge the VW in the middle of the night when demand is low and the car can be charged in a few hours. My standard 200 amp service had plenty of capacity to charge day or night. Electric companies that offer off-peak pricing cut their rates in half during the night.

Electric power generation limitations. Another red herring. Charge at home in the middle of the night when demand is low and generating capability is available.  All the parts and pieces for my charging station were $700. Total. Or, if you think additional fuel is needed at the generating plants, oil that was processed into auto gasoline can be processed to produce electricity. But the big point is that you will only have to use half as much oil. The remainder is left over.

Battery disposal/recycling costs. How much is the core charge on a lead-acid battery? The lithium Ion batteries have core charges too and are recycled.

Motor power and capability. That is a total lie. Have you driven an EV and compared acceleration to your gas car, or driven an EV all day with zero problems of overheating?

Battery life and replacement cost. I have looked at those $60,000 battery replacement you-tube videos. Cherry picked from weird experiences. If you want to do a smear campaign based on the out in left field cases, you can do it for EV or IC.
I just replaced the battery in my 2007 Prius. Yes, the battery lasted 16 years with zero maintenance. In fact, the hybrid part of the car required zero maintenance, but the gas engine sure did. And BTW, the Prius battery was $1,950 new from my local Toyota dealer. BTW, it had a $500 core charge.

Recycling the batteries. I converted a used 2002 Club Car battery cart to use around my property over 4 years ago. I used modules from a Nissan Leaf that I purchased used from a recycler on eBay.  I used 7 modules for $540 to get 52 volts. After 4 years on the odometer, I have driven the cart over 1,000 miles and even used to pull logs out of the woods. Oh, and the Li batteries weigh 300 pounds less than the lead acid batteries, use a $70 on-board charger that plugs into the wall, and require zero maintenance. And the cart will pop a wheelie with ease.

I have yet to find an argument against Hybrids or EV's that is honest, and real.
Lloyd

Car fires. Have you ever driven by a regular gas engined car that had burned up? Cherry pick the EV fires if you are desperate to build a strawman argument.

[Nomadic Pirate]

Unfortunately, EVs have become a hot button issue and there is an awful lot of mis-information flying around, some of it intention, and some of it just repeated by folks who don't do REAL fact checks. Many of the anti-EV youtube videos fall into the intentional mis-information category.

I would like to offer some of my own personal real-world experiences based on EVs and Hybrids that I personally own. A 2007 Toyota Prius, a 2022 VW ID.4, and a 2002 club car golf cart I converted to used Lithium Ion batteries from a Nissan Leaf.

The first one is cost of purchase. If you do an honest check on prices of EVs and Hybrids, and don't just cherry pick the most expensive ones, you will see that the prices are only a little more than equivalent IC vehicles. 

Operating cost. Cost-wise my VW gets the equivalent of 90 mpg if you compare the cost of the KWHrs I use compared to the gallons of gas I would have had to buy. My Electric bill is proof. I installed a charging station and have real-time electric meter monitoring so I can see how much my electric bill has increased.

Electricity distribution problems. Is that a real issue or a red herring? I set my 50 amp charger to charge the VW in the middle of the night when demand is low and the car can be charged in a few hours. My standard 200 amp service had plenty of capacity to charge day or night. Electric companies that offer off-peak pricing cut their rates in half during the night.

Electric power generation limitations. Another red herring. Charge at home in the middle of the night when demand is low and generating capability is available.  All the parts and pieces for my charging station were $700. Total. Or, if you think additional fuel is needed at the generating plants, oil that was processed into auto gasoline can be processed to produce electricity. But the big point is that you will only have to use half as much oil. The remainder is left over.

Battery disposal/recycling costs. How much is the core charge on a lead-acid battery? The lithium Ion batteries have core charges too and are recycled.

Motor power and capability. That is a total lie. Have you driven an EV and compared acceleration to your gas car, or driven an EV all day with zero problems of overheating?

Battery life and replacement cost. I have looked at those $60,000 battery replacement you-tube videos. Cherry picked from weird experiences. If you want to do a smear campaign based on the out in left field cases, you can do it for EV or IC.
I just replaced the battery in my 2007 Prius. Yes, the battery lasted 16 years with zero maintenance. In fact, the hybrid part of the car required zero maintenance, but the gas engine sure did. And BTW, the Prius battery was $1,950 new from my local Toyota dealer. BTW, it had a $500 core charge.

Recycling the batteries. I converted a used 2002 Club Car battery cart to use around my property over 4 years ago. I used modules from a Nissan Leaf that I purchased used from a recycler on eBay.  I used 7 modules for $540 to get 52 volts. After 4 years on the odometer, I have driven the cart over 1,000 miles and even used to pull logs out of the woods. Oh, and the Li batteries weigh 300 pounds less than the lead acid batteries, use a $70 on-board charger that plugs into the wall, and require zero maintenance. And the cart will pop a wheelie with ease.

I have yet to find an argument against Hybrids or EV's that is honest, and real.
Lloyd

Car fires. Have you ever driven by a regular gas engined car that had burned up? Cherry pick the EV fires if you are desperate to build a strawman argument.

Great to see an intelligent post not driven by propaganda and force fed missinformation.


Thank you very much for the well articulated and actual data filled post.

[subscriber]

For those of you who see me as a binary troll, allow me to reiterate:   
Hybrids make sense because they save energy that the brakes would otherwise waste.

I am not anti EV; I am anti EV mandates.   Such mandates are in the legislative pipeline, coming sooner in some states than others.

If you want an EV you should have one.  If it saves you money, then more power to you.

Part of my "resistance" is due to the idea that EV are saving the planet because they don't emit CO2.  This selling point seems more often used than running costs.  OK, so you charge your EV at home during the night when electricity is cheaper.  Makes sense from an operating cost perspective.  But that power is not coming from solar panels.  It may be coming from wind.  More likely it is coming from fossil fuel.  If it takes less fossil fuel than an equivalent ICE vehicle would use, and thus saves money, then great.   But don't boast about zero emissions, that aren't.  That is like boasting that you stopped your actual toxic industry locally, only to have your product made by means of the same process in China.

The coming EV mandates are being sold as elimination of fossil fuels.  Now, if that goal is realized, will other power sources be enough?  It will, if EVs are too expensive, because a lower percentage of the population will be able to afford them.  To me, it seems that the goal is not so much to get rid of fossil fuels, as to get rid of personal transportation.  And yes, I am reading ahead to 2030 and beyond.  Evidence of that goal is already here:

As for charging at home, there more apartments being built now without any off street parking, never mind your own charging station.

It is great if you you have your own charging station and that serves your needs.  You might even be retired and have enough solar to charge your car during the day.  What if you want to travel away from home beyond the range of your EV?  Are there enough working charging stations where you want to go?  Are they available?  Are they functional?

Apart from mandates, I object to smugness.  A holier than though attitude amongst many EV owners.  After all, their car does not have a tailpipe, and the electricity they use could be coming from non fossil fuel sources.  They don't want to know where it comes from, because with plausible deniability comes the idea that while some EVs are fossil fuel powered, theirs isn't. 

Fossil fueled vehicles will never go away.  The rich and famous that tell us that we need mandates to take our ICE vehicles, they need to keep their private planes to travel to climate conferences; where they decide what you will need to give up next. 

When are these visionaries going to insist that people should be euthanized for the common good, when they are old and unproductive; or have used up their carbon credits?  If this sounds ridiculous, some members of this forum and contributing to this thread, have stated that to save the planet, the human population will need to be reduced by more than 50%.    For the record, I am not in favor of "reducing" anyone; nor their free market options to own EVs, hybrids or ICE vehicles.  If the EV ownership experience is superior in every way, the free market will adopt it, and ICE for transportation will go the way of the horse.

[subscriber]

Doing a YT search for EV racing around the Nürburgring has a bunch of videos:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ev+racing+nurburgring

The focus seems to be impressive lap times.   That would not be possible if the grip and handling were poor.

Can these cars perform beyond the first battery charge; or are pit stops an hour rather than a minute? Its seems like being able to replace the battery as fast as a wheel change would help.

I would be interested to see EVs at the 24 hour Le Mans.

[Nomadic Pirate]

Doing a YT search for EV racing around the Nürburgring has a bunch of videos:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ev+racing+nurburgring

The focus seems to be impressive lap times.   That would not be possible if the grip and handling were poor.

Can these cars perform beyond the first battery charge; or are pit stops an hour rather than a minute? Its seems like being able to replace the battery as fast as a wheel change would help.

I would be interested to see EVs at the 24 hour Le Mans.

As you said you are a Binary troll, just looking at one aspect and concentrating only on the negatives like charging stations that have nothing to do with the capability of the platform, once charging stations are as numerous as gas stations is game over.


I and anybody else already conceded that the energy supply as not yet catched up with the actual Electric motor capability but that in itself does not make Electric vehicles very appealing even at the present time for a lot of people and applications,.....furthermore tech is improving at breakneck speed so everything will be very different in a short time, the future is bright for this platform.

You clearly are an intelligent person and obviously well educated, just take off the blindfolds and don't let yourself be controlled by your political inclinations and your life will be much more fulfilling 


As smart as you think you are I bet the guy that owns Amazon migth be way smarter then you, he has a contract with Canoo to replace his fleet of delivery vans with Electric ones,.....I for one will pay more attention to what he does then what you say.


Cue, your rethoric response with all the missinformations and such that Lloyd pointed at earlier.

[subscriber]

As you said you are a Binary troll

I did not say that I am a binary troll.  I said some people see me that way.  A polite way of me stating that I knew those insults were directed at me. 

If I were binary I would want only one type of vehicle on the market.  I say, let the market decide.  I listed thee types that people should be free to choose from; not one. 

You are confident that when charging stations are as plentiful as gas stations, ICE would be gone.  Do a little calculation.  Each gas pump can handle a vehicle every 5 minutes.  Each charging station is going to take multiples of that.  So, there will need to be at least ten times as many charging stations as gas pumps, with the electrical generation capacity to support that.

This is based on fast charging, not overnight charging at your house.  Fast charging is more expensive, and drastically reduces battery life, if you make a habit of it.

Charlie wants a Cyber truck because he likes it.  I have no problem with that.  He has not said anything disparaging about those who don't aspire to EV ownership. I have a problem with people that want to limit the choices of others.  Including that they should somehow evaporate off the planet.   You have expressed that as necessary; and consider me to have unreasonable political inclinations.

I do not look to the ultra wealthy for advice on how to live, or how much to consume.  Bezos underpays and mistreats his employees; while defining conspicuous consumption.  Once amazon has crushed its competition completely, it will start treating its customers like it treats its employees.  Amazon prices going up is already evidence that Bezos is confident that serious competition is on its way out. 

We will see how the amazon EVs work out in the long run.  Besides, if amazon makes more money using EVs for delivery, that is how the free market works.  Why would I be against that?

I am leaving this thread now.  While you can't make me evaporate off the planet, you might be able to have me made to evaporate off this forum; "for being a troll".  This, while you can insult me with impunity, because your worldview and politics are correct.  Wishing people with the wrong outlook and politics, dead, is insulting, don't you think?   Or did you mean to include people who think like you in your population reduction fantasy?   Consider that a rhetorical question.  If you deny that you made such statements, then someone may have to find them to remind you.

[Nomadic Pirate]

 

[avator]

I'm locking this thread for the back and forth dirt slinging. Most replies here are just repeats of points already made previously in the thread.
How about we just get back to some airgun related stuff.