HW80

[KWK]

Yeah, scrag away if you please, but if anything in your system is off, you will degrade the spring rather than enhance it.

I don't let that happen because it's a very simple operation for me. I could do it with half my brain tied behind my back just to make it fair. 

[Toxylon]

 

[Toxylon]

An adult-sized German springer in a suitably puffy gun slip takes up room about the same as a six-year-old standing in attention would. It adds up, fast.

In the future, I want to be able to put guns up onto a wall, where they take up no real estate while staying out of harm's way, and be all accessible and purty.

[Toxylon]

First break-in shots for the new setup.

With the addition of the 18.5mm Delrin spacer, the cocking stroke of the HW had changed completely: the cocking effort was very high and rose abruptly in the end, approaching my limit. Remember, I have zero issues cocking a H135 a hundred times in one go, after a good night's sleep. Also, remember that the same tired Monolith spring was an almost-no-effort spring before the addition of the spacer.

All in all, the gun felt like it was straining under the load. However, the trigger pull was normal, the recoil wasn't out of ordinary. Couldn't tell about the noise level, since I had hearing protection on, shooting indoors.

After pellet #11, the 80 stopped latching, just like that.

Since the gun did latch with this setup for a while, it cannot be coil-bound, nor piston-blocked. I wonder if it was the Rekord trigger that let go. It was at a light pull from the previous owner, shooting leisurely 12 fpe shots.

[Bayman]

I've never seen a Rekord physically break. I've heard something about the trigger not setting or resetting if the pull weight screw is out too far.

It's also possible your shrink tubing guide is bunched up between some of the coils. or there's a broken piece of coil at the bottom of the spring blocking the piston. Time for an autopsy.

[Toxylon]

Good troubleshooting from a distance, Ron!

I don't think the Rekord broke, just that it let go, in a way that could be fixed by adjusting the trigger. This is only possibility, though.

Autopsy sounds so morbid and final, but yeah, another night with the HW80 in bits and pieces ahead.

[Toxylon]

Problem found:

The shrink tube cover had again crept under the thrust washer, raising it the decisive 0.5mm.

To help keep the shrink tube in place, I had shrank the top end of the tube around the rear guide mouth with its taper. Even that wasn't enough, since the plastic is stretchy: apparently, it will find its way under the washer, no matter what.

The obvious solution within this guide system is to thin the thrust washer even further, so that even with the tube under it it is low enough for the piston to latch.

A bigger issue is that cocking effort curve with this setup is just about unusable.

The Monolith had shortened another 7mm from these dozen shots, but was in one piece.

[Bayman]

Although the ID technically expands when compressed. If the spring deflects hard during compression it's gonna scrub the shrink tube loose.

 It also sounds like this spring is taxing the mechanical design of the gun itself. Time to ditch that spring and look for another seal as well.

[Yogi]

Problem found:

The shrink tube cover had again crept under the thrust washer, raising it the decisive 0.5mm.

To help keep the shrink tube in place, I had shrank the top end of the tube around the rear guide mouth with its taper. Even that wasn't enough, since the plastic is stretchy: apparently, it will find its way under the washer, no matter what.

The obvious solution within this guide system is to thin the thrust washer even further, so that even with the tube under it it is low enough for the piston to latch.

A bigger issue is that cocking effort curve with this setup is just about unusable.

The Monolith had shortened another 7mm from these dozen shots, but was in one piece.

Duke,

If you need to widen the spring guide base, look for helocopter tape.  It is what they use on the leading edge of helocoptor rotors to prevent nicks.  It is about the strongest stuff around and will not creep up.

-Yogi

[SpiralGroove]

Hey Tox,
Get rid or the shrink wrap tub on the spring guide -> Use Steel and have it fit snug.  At this point, you're creating your own problems .
Your toiling with sub-optimal solutions and wondering why no progress is being made .

At least you're learning what Not to do - we've all taken the road to endless frustration; I try to avoid that fork in the road .

[Toxylon]

Thanks guys,

In a way it would be very easy to assemble the gun with the bare OEM rear guide, as originally intended, and enjoy the buzz- and twang-fest, with mainspring life-shortening collateral damage, but now that I have tasted the sweet, efficient cycles that tight guides provide, I'm spoiled.

I'm thinking Titan #2 for a new mainspring, but it also needs a thicker rear guide, so we're back at that junction.

I looked up helicopter tape. Seems like promising stuff, but not really available to me. Has anyone here used it on rear guides or was this just brainstorming by Yogi?

The tubes and tapes and whatnot are obviously subs for the real thing, but you gotta try things out, not trash them just because, or because you tried it once and failed because you didn't know what you were doing.

Kirk,

So, having a correct-spec mainspring by a renowned maker that shortens with every shot, and spacing it according to manufacturer's advice was "creating my own problems"?

Steel guides are cool and all, but the weirdo specs required make for a uphill climb, whether making a new steel guide from scratch, or fattening an existing one with thin steel tubing. I'll look into it.

[SpiralGroove]

Thanks guys,

(1) The tubes, tapes and whatnot are obviously subs for the real thing, but you gotta try things out, not trash them just because, or because you tried it once and failed because you didn't know what you were doing.

Kirk,
(2) So, having a correct-spec mainspring by a renowned maker that shortens with every shot, and spacing it according to manufacturer's advice was "creating my own problems"?

(3) Steel guides are cool and all, but the weirdo specs required make for a uphill climb, whether making a new steel guide from scratch, or fattening an existing one with thin steel tubing. I'll look into it.

(1) Tubes, tapes and whatnot are temporary band-aids that can work for a short period of time.  After tuning a few of the guns, you understand that revisiting issues every 6 months or so isn't worth your time.  Buy the right part and save frustration or have the skill to modify what you have into the right part.
(2) You do not have the correct mainspring for YOUR HW80 or the spring wouldn't be an issue.
(3) Buy, make, modify or have a correct fitting spring guide made for you -> fattening an existing one sounds like it will need to be fixed soon.

Remember, Tox .......... You're Learning to improvise ................  You need to learn what the final product looks like ..... to function properly.

[Toxylon]

Kirk,

With more than a whiff of condescension while stating the bleeding obvious, I kindly wish you do not participate in this thread anymore. Thanks.

[SpiralGroove]

Gladly
After 6 pages, I don't know what else to say, but I think you're wasting everybody's time including your own.
It shot better before you took it apart .........
Do yourself a favor and send it out to be fixed or sell it ................ this thread has been painfully entertaining .
 

[tjk]

Hey Duke. You have a great gun and nobody wants you to have a negative experience with your gun. We are all here to help each other out. No matter how much or how little these spring piston guns cost, they can all be persnickety Royal pains in the rumps!!! I haven’t ever used a Monolith spring so I can’t comment on them or offer any advice, but I have used the Titan springs with relative success with no issues that I can remember. When you get the Titan spring, take the ID measurement and I am sure there are plenty of tuners in the UK that can spin you out a properly fitted delrin guide. If you plan to go the heat shrink method, clean the metal guide thoroughly with a non chlorinated brake cleaner and clean it over several times. Install the heat shrink tubing and leave half an inch of the guide uncovered on both ends of the guide. This way when the spring is compressed, as it expands, it will slide over the heat shrink material. If you have too much down by the base of the spring where it seats, it will surely begin to tear the heat shrink away because the spring ends are not as apt to expanding as the middling coils of the spring when it twists from being compressed. Use just a small amount of Lube on the guide. Screw the spring on the guide slowly. If it catches and tears the shrink wrap, take a dremil tool and carefully trim and polish the id of the spring end and  replace with a new piece of shrink tubing.  Repeat if nessicery. Once you get the spring fully seated to the guide without any damage to the heat shrink tubing, add just a small amount of tar or whatever spring lubricants you prefer to the od of the mainspring. Keep in mind the old adage “less is better”. Yes this is a bandaid method but it will get you by until you can save up for a proper kit with fitted guides. Macarri and Vortek make high quality spring kits for the best power for your gun, or for the casual plinker where velocity isn’t the main emphasis. I would advise that you concentrate your efforts on the HW80 to be a smooth and accurate shooter, and NOT a power gun that is more difficult to shoot and enjoy. Magnum springers (regardless of price and quality) have a steep learning curve and you must serve your due diligence and patience with them,…..and a lot of practice!!!! I wish you the best, and I hope you will get that rascal sorted out and post some nice tight one pence 20 yard groups in the near future.

[Iguana15]

Real nice gun

[caudie]

Duke.  Just curious if you did anything more with the Mono spring.  I liked following your progress and wondering how you came out.  I especially like the way you explain your progress and how you think outside the box.  I have no doubt you have it sorted or will soon.  Just curious as to what spring you used and how the 80 is doing.  It's a really nice gun.  Thanks.

[Ike the GSD]

This fella did a chrono test of his .177 HW80 after installing a Vortek HO kit and he was getting anywhere from mid 17 ft lbs to over 19 ft lbs using various pellets 👀


Pellets And Pistons Airgun Channel         I love his channel by the way check it out guys he has a lot of good content👍

[Toxylon]

The idea is to make guides that fit the chosen mainspring. Having no way for now to make custom fitted rear guides, I solved the HW80 problem by getting a mainspring that fit my chosen rear guide.

I had a modern plastic OEM rear guide for the HW80. After checking guide OD and various aftermarket spring IDs, I purchased a Titan #8 mainspring, designed to go with the full-power HW95. With a little spacing, this spring would also be of the right length in my 80.

I remembered Kirk’s battles with the Titan #8 in his 95, where the spring proved hard to cock and way too powerful. I figured this spring could work quite well in the bigger HW80, especially in  .177 cal, where there was no outlet for a really powerful spring, anyway.

After finishing the spring ends, the Titan #8 fitted pretty perfectly on the HW guide, requiring a hard push to go in, and not coming off unless twisted counter-coilwise.

In my parts box was a delrin tophat reportedly from a HW77 (they don’t have tophats off the factory, AFAIK, so an aftermarket part). Trimming the tophat neck just a hair it, too, fitted tightly onto the new Titan - things where a-rollin’! (see pic)

With the failed Maccari Monolith attempt, I had installed a home-made Delrin spacer in the piston. It had to come out for the Titan to fit in.

Getting the spacer out proved a chore. No soaking in motor cleaner, lubing with WD40, prodding, or shaking / tapping the piston worked. Metal tophats / spacers almost always come out by tapping the piston body / latch rod vigorously, but Delrin doesn’t have the density / elasticity to vibrate its way out.

In the end, I had to use a last resort, gleaned off the British forums: I heated the end of a length of 15mm copper pipe with a micro torch, plunged the hot pipe into the piston, pressed hard against the spacer inside, and left to cool. With this method, the spacer finally pulled out, obviously trashed. (see pic)

Now the new spring, with tophat, could be installed. With the tophat the Titan had a whopping 85mm (3.35”) preload. The HW80 had plenty of compression space for this spring in full length, but I knew from my previous experience with the 80 the preload would make for an interesting assembly experience, given the screw-in rear block.

Sure enough, it was almost impossible for me to push the spring all the way in for the rear block to engage the receiver threads, and then turn the rear block. I had to practice it, tweaking my technique with multiple attempts.

An unexpected problem emerged with the modern type rear guide: at the point where the rear guide mouth reached the latch rod inside the receiver, the angle of the rear guide would be off, for no obvious reason (the guide washer centered etc.), and I had to start wiggling the guide to find the entry alignment blind, while pushing against the mainspring at near-full force!

With the original, heavy steel guide with its wide, splayed integral foot, I had had no alignment problems, and if I did, I could muscle the alignment, with no fear of either the heavy steel guide or the heavy steel latch rod worse for the wear. With the modern, reedy plastic guide, I knew I could smash the guide mouth or worse if I used any kind of force on it under severe pressure.

Even when I did get guide insertion at engagement, things weren’t in the clear. I had to use heavy padding on my rear block pushing hand to have any chance of getting all the way down, due to pain. The padding would interfere with the crucial clearance at starting to engage the rear block / receiver threads. The padding would also make the turning clumsy and inefficient, and I knew the rear block threads would be easily cross-threaded, threatening the health of the entire gun.

So, I devised a way to push the rear block & spring down with my chest (padded), dropping down on the action with my body mass. At touchdown I would wiggle to find guide alignment, push down and start turning the receiver around counter-clockwise with my two free hands, engaging the threads. Success!

I need to stress that none of the above is needed with mainsprings with little preload. The heavy Monolith, after setting inches shorter from fresh, was nothing in comparison to this assembly.

I didn’t want to pre-set the Titan, since I’ve had no good experiences doing it (the spring WILL cant unless it is very well supported internally), and cocking a freshly-assembled gun for a time accomplishes all of it easily.

The piston seal sides + piston bearings were lubed with Honda M77 Moly, while the tophat + rear guide washer were lightly lubed with Maccari Clear Tar.  The Titan spring with its coating received no lubrication.

Pulling the newly-assembled 80’s barrel down, just short of cocking, things felt just right: a smooth, very springy resistance with a surprising amount of heft. I think this could be a really good match for the .177 cal oldie.

[Bayman]

I'm looking forward to hearing how it shoots