New Seneca Dragonfly?

[HPP-Mechanic]

Here's the DF I .177 numbers.  I redid pump numbers 6 and 7 on the lube again! third test, thinking I didn't fully extend the arm when pumping. The redo numbers suggest I was correct in that regard. Overall, a 10 to 20 fps increase on most pumps from lubing.


Also, I remember getting a couple lighter hammer springs after seeing the home depot spring (stronger than stock) do nothing. The power output from the lighter springs didn't do much good, the stock spring was better across the pumps. Wish I took notes but don't see any. Might have been bad enough I didn't write it diwn, though maybe I didnkt have the notebook.

Regarding fliers, deburring made a big difference but I'm sure you did that, Don!

Am I reading this wrong? Less than 300fps?   Is this in mps?

[splitbeing]

It's mps. Thought I mentioned that. Might have been an earlier post.

[Nvreloader]

HPP
Thanks for that info, 
If you guys that have these DF I & II models in either calibers are interested in reading
about some info and there is a couple of photo's, you may want to check this out:
https://airgunwarriors.com/community/?wpfs=dragonfly+&wpfin=entire-posts&wpfd=0&wpfob=relevancy&wpfo=desc

HtH's
Don

[Nvreloader]

Hey Guys

Question,
You have an air inlet valve hole of .140.0" and one at 156.2",
would they produce/have the same pressure, same number of pumps,
when pumped with the same air volume, into the same sized valve volume?

Would the air Ventry effect build/store more internal volume with the .140" hole
as compared to the 156" hole?

This is in ref to tests G & H,

Summary of all the tests, so far.
     Test       G     H        ***   
1 pump = 262--252     -10fps
2 pumps= 377--305     -72fps
3 pumps= 390--383     -7 fps
4 pumps= 436--416     -20fps
5 pumps= 488--449     -39fps
6 pumps= 498--524     +74fps
7 pumps= 639--567     -72fps
8 pumps= 754--600     -154fps
9 pumps= 810--633     -177fps
10 pumps= 833-690*   -143fps
11 pumps= 833-711     -122fps
12 pumps= 833-754     -79fps
13 pumps= 770-833
14 pumps= 770-833
15 pumps= 770-833
There was no extra air left after any pump test, for any shot.
* Target level for 10 pumps @ 800 fps.
*** Difference between H to G, in fps

G test was with the .145.0" dia valve air inlet hole, no other changes.
H test was with the .156.2" dia valve air inlet hole, no other changes

Going by the FPS results, I would believe it to be true..........?
There is a 11.2" dia difference between the hole size,
156.2 + 11.4 = .167.6" = 4.25mm metric,
if the next hole size was opened up to 11/64" = .171.9",
would that bring the fps up to around 800 fps + at 10 pumps?

(G Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was,
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed).

(H Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was,
All air passageways opened up to .1562" Dia (reamed).

Having a hard time wrapping my head around this stuff,
as I don't really know what I am doing...................

Thanks All,
Your thoughts and suggestions.................


-----------------------------------------------------------------
Summary of all the tests
     Test       A     B    C    D     E    E-1   F     G     H    H-1
1 pump = 265-288-262-255-259-269-269-262--252-236
2 pumps= 288-321-380-383-383------393-377--305-367
3 pumps= 322-354-462-465-465------452-390--383-449
4 pumps= 465-361-524-528-521------479-436--416-495
5 pumps= 515-597-574-570-567-574-538-488--449-511
6 pumps= 567-610-620-600-600------623-498--524-574
7 pumps= 600-616-643-626-623------646-639--567-597
8 pumps= 633-620-672-649-643------652-754--600-613
9 pumps= 652-651-688-659-662------708-810--633-757
10 pumps= 666-688-698-672-679-692-728-833-690-813
11 pumps= 678-----------688-683------744-833-711-856
12 pumps= 679-----------702-712------770-833-754-869
13 pumps= 681-----------712-718------770-833-801
14 pumps= 680----------------721------770-833-801
15 pumps= 679----------------728-741-770-833-801
There was no extra air left after any pump test, for any shot.

(A Test)
Here is the  full 15 shot+ pumps test, 3 pumps per the number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
with the OEM 18/19# spring, full length,14 gr Crosman ammo
 
(B Test)
1 complete turn on pump rod, nothing else changed. A 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long,
.415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"

(C Test)
I just finished the 1 >10 pumps x 3 each per pump,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, nothing else changed, with a 11# Flat wire spring,
5" long, .415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"

(D Test)
I just finished the 1 >15 pumps x 3 tests per pump number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia,
.252" I/S Dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound less than 1.030",14 gr Crosman.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

(E Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer spring.
Using a OEM 6/7# Storm Rider Round wire spring, 3.360" long, .384" O/S Dia,
.300" I/S dia, 25 coils, .035" thick round wire, coil bound at 1.020", 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

(E-1 Test)
Here is something I found out that is very interesting with this DF II, 22cal rifle
I lubed all pivot points, and the oil wiper seal and shot these Oiled 3 pump tests.

(F Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer weight to 533 gr
and Hammer spring weight of 9-10#'s.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,.022" thick Flat wire,
25 coils, 14 gr Crosman ammo. 2 complete turns on pump rod head.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

(G Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

(H Test)
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .1562" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

[Psipumper]

Is the air inlet hole you are referring to the hole where the air enters the valve from the pumping?

[Nvreloader]

Thanks Jason

I'll get back to you in a little bit,..........
I am attempting to figure out this volume stuff,
I keep getting 2 different results,
I know I am doing something wrong, just have to find out what/where.

Figuring this spring volume, is next to impossible, so I am going to forget it,
as it cannot be much volume..

I am using this calculator to figure everything,
https://www.omnicalculator.com/math/cylinder-volume
Tia,
Don

Regarding the valve volume, you may want to search up Bob’s guidance on the sweet spot for pumpers.  If memory serves, it’s somewhere in the range of 1/3 to 1/2 of the barrel volume.  So for example if the .22 barrel is 20in long, its volume is about 0.74ci.  Meaning a valve whose volume is larger than about 0.37ci is running hard into the wall of diminishing returns.  You indicated the current valve is closer to 1.04ci so it’s already quite large.  So installing an even larger valve…well it might be fun and educational to see how it turns out, but not so much for casual everyday use because of all the pumping necessary to adequately pressurize it.

[Nvreloader]

Hi Charles
Yes, this where the pumped air flows thru to get inside the valve storage area.
Tia,
Don

Is the air inlet hole you are referring to the hole where the air enters the valve from the pumping?

[Psipumper]

Hi Charles
Yes, this where the pumped air flows thru to get inside the valve storage area.
Tia,
Don

Is the air inlet hole you are referring to the hole where the air enters the valve from the pumping?

That hole needs to be small. The volume of the hole adds headspace and reduces the amount going into the valve. I reduce the size to 1 mm and it works in my pumpers.

[Nvreloader]

JD
Maybe the oil film is creating a better seal between the cylinder wall and "O" ring?
I can't explain it, both times I have tested it, the oiled "O" rings produce high fps readings.
And I have read where this occurrence is happening with other shooters.

Tia,
Don

I wonder if the oil helps reduce the charge temperature. If the "compression chamber" gets hot, it will build pressure faster, but then let off as it cools.

[Nvreloader]

Hi Charles
Thanks for the info.
I am NOT doubting you, just having a hard time believing that .011" differences,
causes so much variance in the fps...........between those 2 tests.

I'll find out when my new valve gets here,
as I can bush the inlet hole and start with the .140.0" hole diameter,
and do the same test again, with the old valve.

Thank you for the info, still attempting to wrap my head around it.
Don

Hi Charles
Yes, this where the pumped air flows thru to get inside the valve storage area.
Tia, Don

Is the air inlet hole you are referring to the hole where the air enters the valve from the pumping?

That hole needs to be small. The volume of the hole adds headspace and reduces the amount going into the valve. I reduce the size to 1 mm and it works in my pumpers.

[Nvreloader]

OK guys
Here are some of the spec's of the OEM (Service replacement parts package)

Valve spring = 1.590" long x .290" Dia x 12 coils x .024" Dia wire = 3.5#'s weight,

Top Valve seal = .683" long x .293" Dia w/ a 30* tapered sealing cone =
.170" long w/.100 flat point, also has a .232" x .192" step down shank
to fit inside the valve spring end, no compressed BB inlet hole filter.

Bottom Valve seal =.608" long x .316" Dia x with a step down = .232" Dia x 390" long,
to fit inside the spring end and also has a .157" x .394" deep hole to fit the Brass sealing
head and valve stem that is .115" dia x .930" long,

Brass sealing part = .478" long x .254" dia 30* tapered cone =.085 thick = .110" dia hole
the valve stem fits inside this Brass part.

3 - "O" rings = .112" thick x .511" I/S dia x .740" O/S dia x 2 "O" rings for the valve seals,
1 - "O" ring = .072" thick x .525" I/s dia x .664" O/S dia for the inside valve seal.

Valve body = 2.517" long x .741" dia on top and .738" bottom half, 16 x 1 mm threads,
top air inlet hole = .058" dia, valve exit hole = .140" dia, valve stem hole = .117" dia,
Top "O" ring groove =.533" I/S dia x .125" wide round groove channel,
Bottom "O" ring groove =.523" dia x .128" wide, square cut channel.

Top I/S dim = 1.170" x .395" dia hole,
Bottom = .635" long tapered cone x .496" dia,
valve throat = .190" dia x .125" long,
has recess "O" ring seat = .397" dia x .065" deep.

TP seal =.390" dia x .293" tall x .140" air hole x w/2 O rings
.078" thick x .238" I/S dia x .394" O/S dia, the step down "O" ring seats are
.235" dia x .055" tall, same both sides.

Hammer = 1.695" long x .738" dia w/recessed nose = .551 dia x .160" high,
fits over the crimp grooves in the pressure tube, that the rear of the valve rest against,
.415" dia x 1.570" deep spring tunnel x 872.5 grs weight.

Hammer spring = 3.560" long x .385" O/S dia x .310" I/S dia x .036" dia wire x 13 #'s weight,
coil bound = .750", alum spring guide = 1.260" long x .293" dia w/.395" x .125" head.

Pump Rod "O" Ring  sealing head = .740" dia x .257" thick x .535" deep "O" groove x .123" wide,
8 x 1 mm dia threads x .460" long w/lock nut, foam oil wiper ring.

I can see  another set of hammer spring & valve test coming  down the pike,
because of the difference of spring poundage weights, between OEM and Replacement #'s,
I'll use the new OEM replacement valve,
air passage hole in =.058" dia, and valve exit hole = .140" dia, 

Springs Dimensions
OEM original = 18/19#s, (3.140")
OEM replacement = 13/14 #'s, (3.560")
Flat Wire spring = 11/12 #s, (5" Full length)
Reduced Flat Wire = 8/9#s (2.50")
Storm Rider spring = 6/7#s (3.640")

I can tell you now, I wont be doing 3x per pump number,
as I think I have 1 Can of pellets left,
I'll settle for 1 pump per pump number,
unless there is a very convincing reason to do more.......Lol

Your thoughts and suggestions...........I am only doing this once..........LOL
Thanks, Guys
Don

[HPP-Mechanic]

The brass valve plunger/stem don’t fit together on my kit… brass is too tight. Got me to thinking though… would be easy to swap out valve stem with a longer one, and get more valve open time (dwell).

[Spacebus]

The brass valve plunger/stem don’t fit together on my kit… brass is too tight. Got me to thinking though… would be easy to swap out valve stem with a longer one, and get more valve open time (dwell).

You have to use a press to fit the stem into the poppet. I think a vise would work.

[Nvreloader]

HPP
I have the same thing on mine, and with slightly other changes to/in dimensions in holes dia,
spring weights etc, a bunch of curveballs have been tossed in, as compared to OEM stock,
I'll have to be careful when doing these follow up tests, to be as uniform as possible.

I have some .115" dia drill rod in the shop,
I am half tempted to just make a full length valve stem with a Peek poppet
to fit OEM dimensions, I can make it long enough to have the tapered sealing end
and still have enough to trim back to a flat faced seal lip, when needed.

What would happen with a longer valve stem, when struck via the hammer,
would it drive into or jamb the top air inlet seal/poppet etc?

I personally DON'T like the hammer resting on the valve end and beating it up plus,
and having to cock the bolt to make the poppet seal, then pumping with a loaded chamber.

I forgot to check the hammer throw depth with the valve out, make note to check.......

A free flight hammer would be perfect,
as long you have the proper dwell/lift for the poppets operation,
with the alum hammer and lighter weight hammer springs seems to be working OK, so far.

This is where a SSG would be the cat's meow,
the only monkey wrench is with the back action screw,
to add/have a SSG you need a 2 screw attachment, one from the top,
and the other from the bottom, to hold everything together.

The first major headache to clear up is, which air inlet hole size should I use,
OEM stock was .102" dia,
OEM Replacement is .058"
this is a major difference.

I'll start with the .058" dia valve INLET air hole and test and see the results,
then I can open this valve air hole to .102" for the next test, then on to .140 dia.?

I keep the Alum hammer and test all the Hammer springs from heaviest to the lightest,
using the same ammo and should I oil for every spring test?

Your thoughts and suggestions..............
Thanks Guys,
Don

[splitbeing]

Remember,, Don, that the G test was lubed but the first H test wasn't? Comparing the G test to the lubed H-1 test is more appropriate for thinking through the differences as the lubing has proven to make a substantial difference.

Thinking about the difference lubing has made, I wonder if any of the changes allow for lubricants to pass through in any way.  Could the big bumps in fps at particular pump numbers relate to enough lube passing through to diesel?

[Nvreloader]

SB
Thanks for the reminder, I wasn't thinking about that end,
got my head filled with these odd ball readings and attempting to find the reason why?.

Summary of 2 similar tests Oiled wipers.
     Test       G     H1      *****
1 pump  = 262--236     -26 fps                       
2 pumps= 377--367      -10
3 pumps= 390--449     +59
4 pumps= 436--495     +59
5 pumps= 488--511     +23
6 pumps= 498--574     +76
7 pumps= 639--597     -42
8 pumps= 754--613     -141
9 pumps= 810--757     -53
10 pumps= 833-813*    -20
11 pumps= 833-856     +23
12 pumps= 833-869     +36
13 pumps= 770-833
14 pumps= 770-833
15 pumps= 770-833
* Target @ 750-800 fps

Test G & H1 Oiled wiper test
***** Difference between G & H1

I don't believe that there is any dieseling, as you should be able to smell that
after the shot, and I seen no evidence when I check the valve/bbl
or heard any different noise during any shot test etc.

IMHO, I think it just provides a better (tighter) seal and pushes more air,
per pump? I really have no information about how much a seal like this will hold
before leaking air..ie 8 pump test = Real odd reading?

I don't have the foggiest notion about the odd reading that shows up,
as I have don't have much  experience in this stuff, my back ground is in the PB end.

I was hoping that the one of the 3 Guru's would show up and advise and educate us.....

Tia,
Don

[Back_Roads]

 Oil will give a better pump cup seal, over oiling may decrease the valve volume, creating slightly higher valve pressures, but that would be short lived.

[Nvreloader]

Thank James
I know that just a couple drops of oil on the oil wiper and "O" ring
lasts for over 400 pumps/shots.
When I tear it down, I wipe everything clean during the inspection time,
and some times I forget to re-oil the "O" ring every time.

That may be the reason for the odd ball readings that show up,
that I can't explain or understand?

Since I got a new valve, I can start over with the different air inlet holes,
and exhaust holes.

The first major headache to clear up is, which air inlet hole size should I use,
OEM stock was .102" dia, (Refurb rifle)
OEM Replacement is .058"
this is a major difference between hole diameters..

I think, I'll start with the .058" dia valve INLET air hole and test and see the results,
then I can open this valve air hole to .102" for the next test, then on to .140" dia,
while leaving the exhaust hole the OEM stock at .136" for starters.

Your suggestions or thoughts..........

Tia,
Don

[splitbeing]

The riddle on my mind is... what is going on at pumps 7 and 8 in the g test and pump 9 in the h-1 test?

The mod difference between g test and h-1 test correlates with the oddly large fps increase on pumps 7 and 8 in the g test settling down in the h-1 test with pump 9 alone having an oddly large fps increase in the h-1 test. The phenomenon moved up from 7&8 to 9. 

the mod difference between g and h-1 is a clue to this mystery i am unable to solve. Maybe a guru will show up with some guesses!

[Nvreloader]

SB
I have been looking at those ? readings, and nothing jumps out at me,
except I keep coming back to the internal dimension/volume of the valve,
along with the sealing ends of the poppet & inlet ports are Tapered coned seats,
from what I have read and understand, that is a No No for best results etc.

The only real/big difference between G & H-H1 is the air ports were opened,
up from .145" to 156.2" and both were oiled.

I can't believe that the pump head "O" seal is leaking,
or the results would show across the board, wouldn't they?

Per info that Psi Pumper provided, is that each pump = approx 144#'s per pump =
6 pumps = 864 #'s
7 pumps = 1008 #'s
8 pumps = 1152 #'s
9 pumps = 1296 #'s
10 pumps = 1440 #'s

I asked Bob to drop in, as he is a pumper Guru, but didn't get a reply back from him,
as he probably busier than a long tailed cat, in a room full of rocking chairs.

I don't know what to think or do now,
as I have a new OEM replacement valve with different spec's of .058" for air inlet hole,
as compared to .140" and valve TP hole of .136", same for both valves.
I do not know if the poppet and inlet internal parts are the same until I get the valve out
and compare etc.

Summary of these tests
     Test       E-1   F     G     H    H-1
1 pump = -269-269-262--252-236
2 pumps= ------393-377--305-367
3 pumps= ------452-390--383-449
4 pumps= ------479-436--416-495
5 pumps= -574-538-488--449-511
6 pumps= ------623-498--524-574
7 pumps= ------646-639--567-597
8 pumps= ------652-754--600-613
9 pumps= ------708-810--633-757
10 pumps=-692-728-833-690-813
11 pumps=------744-833-711-856
12 pumps=------770-833-754-869
13 pumps=-----------770-833-801
14 pumps=-----------770-833-801
15 pumps=-----------770-833-801
There was no extra air left after any pump test, for any shot.

Summary of all the tests
     Test       A     B    C    D     E    E-1   F     G     H    H-1
1 pump = 265-288-262-255-259-269-269-262--252-236
2 pumps= 288-321-380-383-383------393-377--305-367
3 pumps= 322-354-462-465-465------452-390--383-449
4 pumps= 465-361-524-528-521------479-436--416-495
5 pumps= 515-597-574-570-567-574-538-488--449-511
6 pumps= 567-610-620-600-600------623-498--524-574
7 pumps= 600-616-643-626-623------646-639--567-597
8 pumps= 633-620-672-649-643------652-754--600-613
9 pumps= 652-651-688-659-662------708-810--633-757
10 pumps= 666-688-698-672-679-692-728-833-690-813
11 pumps= 678-----------688-683------744-833-711-856
12 pumps= 679-----------702-712------770-833-754-869
13 pumps= 681-----------712-718------770-833-801
14 pumps= 680----------------721------770-833-801
15 pumps= 679----------------728-741-770-833-801
There was no extra air left after any pump test, for any shot.


(A Test)
Here is the  full 15 shot+ pumps test, 3 pumps per the number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
with the OEM 18/19# spring, full length,14 gr Crosman ammo
 
(B Test)
1 complete turn on pump rod, for length, nothing else changed.
A 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils,
.023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"

(C Test)
10 pumps x 3 each per pump, same pump test as above
2 complete turns on pump rod head length, nothing else changed,
with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils,
.023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"

(D Test)
15 pumps x 3 tests per pump number, same as above
2 complete turns on pump rod head, with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia,
.252" I/S Dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound less than 1.030",14 gr Crosman.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

(E Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer spring.
Using a OEM 6/7# Storm Rider Round wire spring, 3.360" long, .384" O/S Dia,
.300" I/S dia, 25 coils, .035" thick round wire, coil bound at 1.020", 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

(E-1 Test)
Here is something I found out that is very interesting with this DF II, 22cal rifle
I lubed all pivot points, and the oil wiper seal and shot these Oiled 3 pump tests,
for 1 - 5 - 10 pump levels.

(F Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer weight to 533 gr
and Hammer spring weight of 9-10#'s.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,.022" thick Flat wire,
25 coils, 14 gr Crosman ammo. 2 complete turns on pump rod head.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

(G Test)
Same test as the above test, with oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

(H Test)
Same test as the above test, with oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, 25 coils, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .1562" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

(H - 1 test)
Same pump tests as all the others, only item changed was, Oiled the pump rod and head,
also was pumped to 10 pumps and left over night,
shot this 10 pump and recorded 705 fps, may have a leak. 14gr Crosman ammo.
Note: No "O" rings have been changed, all OEM "O" rings thru all these tests.......
All air passageways opened up to .1562" Dia (reamed).

Your thoughts and or suggestions................
Tia,
Don