New Seneca Dragonfly?

[Nvreloader]

SB
Thanks for the offer,
but I am shooting a 22 cal and your are shooting a 17 cal,
IMHO, I don't think that the results/info would be the same as a 22 cal,
just SWAG on my part, I don't know for sure.

I am hoping that someone will join the party and provide some 22 cal info/results etc.

I just finished a 15 shoot/pump test with the Storm Rider OEM hammer spring,
coming up shortly, got to get something to eat,
my stomach thinks my throat has been cut, as BF was at 600 A.......LOL

Thanks,
Don

[Nvreloader]

Here is another pump test
(E Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer spring.
Using a OEM 6/7# Storm Rider Round wire spring, 3.360" long, .384" O/S Dia,
.300" I/S dia, 25 coils, .035" thick round wire, coil bound at 1.020", 14 gr Crosman ammo.
2 complete turns on pump rod head.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

                (E)
1 pump = 259 fps
2 pumps= 383 fps
3 pumps= 465 fps
4 pumps= 521 fps
5 pumps= 567 fps
6 pumps= 600 fps
7 pumps= 623 fps
8 pumps= 643 fps
9 pumps= 662 fps
10 pumps= 679 fps
11 pumps= 683 fps
12 pumps= 712 fps
13 pumps= 718 fps
14 pumps= 721 fps
15 pumps= 728 fps
No remaining air in valve after any shot.

E-1 test
Here is something I found out that is very interesting with this DF II, 22cal rifle,
I lubed all pivot points, and the oil wiper seal and shot these 3 pump tests for,
Oiled =1 pump = 269 fps
Oiled =5 pumps = 574 fps
Oiled =10 pumps = 692 fps
Oiled =15 pumps = 741 fps

Why the difference?, IMHO, I think that the "O" rings on the pump head are getting damaged with all the disassembly I have been doing, and not sealing correctly.

Summary of all the tests
     Test       A     B    C    D     E    E-1
1 pump = 265-288-262-255-259-269
2 pumps= 288-321-380-383-383-----
3 pumps= 322-354-462-465-465-----
4 pumps= 465-361-524-528-521-----
5 pumps= 515-597-574-570-567-574
6 pumps= 567-610-620-600-600-----
7 pumps= 600-616-643-626-623-----
8 pumps= 633-620-672-649-643-----
9 pumps= 652-561-688-659-662-----
10 pumps= 666-688-698-672-679-692
11 pumps= 678-----------688-683-----
12 pumps= 679-----------702-712-----
13 pumps= 681-----------712-718-----
14 pumps= 680----------------721-----
15 pumps= 679----------------728-741
there was no extra air left after any pump test, for any shot.

(A Test)
Here is the  full 15 shot+ pumps test, 3 pumps per the number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
with the OEM 18/19# spring, full length,14 gr Crosman ammo
 
(B Test)
1 complete turn on pump rod, nothing else changed. A 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long,
.415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"

(C Test)
I just finished the 1 >10 pumps x 3 each per pump,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, nothing else changed, with a 11# Flat wire spring,
5" long, .415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"

(D TEST)
I just finished the 1 >15 pumps x 3 tests per pump number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia,
.252" I/S Dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound less than 1.030",14 gr Crosman.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

(E Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer spring.
Using a OEM 6/7# Storm Rider Round wire spring, 3.360" long, .384" O/S Dia,
.300" I/S dia, 25 coils, .035" thick round wire, coil bound at 1.020", 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

E-1 test
Here is something I found out that is very interesting with this DF II, 22cal rifle
I lubed all pivot points, and the oil wiper seal and shot these Oiled 3 pump tests.

Your thoughts and or suggestions................
Tia,
Don

[splitbeing]

Wow, that's a full 15 pumps and well over 700 fps! Both goals accomplished! Bravo, Don! Thanks for bringing us along for the ride!

[Nvreloader]

SB
Thanks

I am very interested in the E-1 results,
it's hard to believe that a little lube upper the fps, that much. 
I'll go over the "O" rings with the high powered Lupe and check them out.

I have a couple of areas I will explore and test,
Adjust the pump head out to the maximum length possible, another .130+ ",
without contacting the valve head. That should give me another 25 fps, maybe?

Lighter hammer with the SR hammer spring, or Flat wire spring weight around 6-8#'s.

Change pellet weights to a slightly heavier 18-20gr weights.

Change valve internal dimensions, with good flat sealing areas.

Make a SSG for fine tuning.

Then adjust everything to the best accuracy possible, after checking the bbl,
and with a new crown on the bbl end and chamber check.

Then figure out how to mount it on my Ebike, and have fun with a go anywhere rifle.

I am hopeful that other members with these types of DF rifles will help out
and post their results for more information and possible increase, if you want it,
to get the best out of your DF II rifle.

Thanks,
Don

[Nvreloader]

When you reduce hammer weight and hammer spring weight, you get?............

Your thoughts  or suggestions ..........
Tia,
Don

[Spacebus]

When you reduce hammer weight and hammer spring weight, you get?............

Your thoughts  or suggestions ..........
Tia,
Don

I would expect a softer strike with less spring and weight.

[avator]

Air left over in the valve.... sometimes even enough for a second shoot.
However, this can be useful in another way....
If you hit your goal with pressure remaining in the valve, it will take less pumps to get back to full pressure.

[splitbeing]

If the previous measurements were correct, the best bet for more power may be opening up the transfer ports to 80% of .22 (I think they are presently closer to 80% of .177?). The graph of fps increase vs pumps is impressively smooth already and you indicated getting consistent fps readings when repeating tests in the same configuration already as well.

[Psipumper]

When you reduce hammer weight and hammer spring weight, you get?............

Your thoughts  or suggestions ..........
Tia,
Don

It is blessed with a long hammer stroke and spring. May be its stormrider origins. Lots of options to get a strong hammer strike if you had retained air. For comparison the hammer stroke of a 392 is .781 and the crossman 1322 is only about .625. 

[Nvreloader]

When you reduce hammer weight and hammer spring weight, you get this............

Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer weight to 533 gr
and spring weight of 9-10 #'s.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,.022" thick Fat wire,
14 gr Crosman ammo. 2 complete turns on pump rod head.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

                (F)
1 pump = 269 fps
2 pumps= 393 fps
3 pumps= 452 fps
4 pumps= 479 fps
5 pumps= 538 fps
6 pumps= 623 fps
7 pumps= 646 fps
8 pumps= 652 fps
9 pumps= 708 fps
10 pumps= 728 fps
11 pumps= 744 fps
12 pumps= 770 fps
13 thru 15 pumps 770 fps or less
No remaining air in valve after any shot.

OEM Hammer weight of 875gr x 1.695" long, .735" Dia,
New Alum hammer weight of 533gr x 1.715" long, .740" Dia

Summary of all the tests
     Test       A     B    C    D     E    E-1   F
1 pump = 265-288-262-255-259-269-269
2 pumps= 288-321-380-383-383------393
3 pumps= 322-354-462-465-465------452
4 pumps= 465-361-524-528-521------479
5 pumps= 515-597-574-570-567-574-538
6 pumps= 567-610-620-600-600------623
7 pumps= 600-616-643-626-623------646
8 pumps= 633-620-672-649-643------652
9 pumps= 652-561-688-659-662------708
10 pumps= 666-688-698-672-679-692-728
11 pumps= 678-----------688-683------744
12 pumps= 679-----------702-712------770
13 pumps= 681-----------712-718------770
14 pumps= 680----------------721------770
15 pumps= 679----------------728-741-770
there was no extra air left after any pump test, for any shot.

The valve in the Storm Rider is over an inch shorter, same Dia inside and out,
but does have the same tapered poppet and seat (as DFII) and NO top air seal,
.180" Dia air inlet hole, same threads.

I have a new SR valve coming from Wes and will adapt it to the DF II rifle,
It will have a larger internal volume than the OEM valve.

Your thoughts and suggestions........
Tia,
Don

[Spacebus]

Firewalker (David) got more power with a lighter hammer on his HPA converted Chaser. Could you duplicate that hammer? I have wanted to test one with the Stormrider or Chaser hammer springs.

I think Firewalker also broke some stuff while testing the light hammer.

[Nvreloader]

Ok Guys,
Hard to believe..........
I double checked everything, and I still don't believe these results/information,
even thou I tested it 3 times.............with these averages.

What would happen with all air passage ways opened to .155", with no other changes?

I think, I am done............ I met my goal of +750 fps for 10 pumps.

                (G) 
1 pump = 262 fps
2 pumps= 377 fps
3 pumps= 390 fps
4 pumps= 436 fps
5 pumps= 488 fps
6 pumps= 498 fps
7 pumps= 639 fps
8 pumps= 754 fps
9 pumps= 810 fps
10 pumps= 833 fps
11 thru 15 pumps= 833 fps or less
No remaining air in valve after any shot.

OEM Hammer weight of 875gr x 1.695" long, .735" Dia,
New Alum hammer weight of 533gr x 1.715" long, .740" Dia

Summary of all the tests
     Test       A     B    C    D     E    E-1   F     G
1 pump = 265-288-262-255-259-269-269-262
2 pumps= 288-321-380-383-383------393-377
3 pumps= 322-354-462-465-465------452-390
4 pumps= 465-361-524-528-521------479-436
5 pumps= 515-597-574-570-567-574-538-488
6 pumps= 567-610-620-600-600------623-498
7 pumps= 600-616-643-626-623------646-639
8 pumps= 633-620-672-649-643------652-754
9 pumps= 652-561-688-659-662------708-810
10 pumps= 666-688-698-672-679-692-728-833
11 pumps= 678-----------688-683------744-833
12 pumps= 679-----------702-712------770-833
13 pumps= 681-----------712-718------770-833
14 pumps= 680----------------721------770-833
15 pumps= 679----------------728-741-770-833
There was no extra air left after any pump test, for any shot.

(A Test)
Here is the  full 15 shot+ pumps test, 3 pumps per the number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
with the OEM 18/19# spring, full length,14 gr Crosman ammo
 
(B Test)
1 complete turn on pump rod, nothing else changed. A 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long,
.415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"

(C Test)
I just finished the 1 >10 pumps x 3 each per pump,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, nothing else changed, with a 11# Flat wire spring,
5" long, .415" O/S Dia, .252" I/S dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound at less than 1.030"

(D TEST)
I just finished the 1 >15 pumps x 3 tests per pump number,
pumps were a complete cycle, open then closed arm pump arm, per each pump stroke.
2 complete turns on pump rod head, with a 11# Flat wire spring, 5" long, .415" O/S Dia,
.252" I/S Dia, 35 coils, .023" thick Flat wire, coil bound less than 1.030",14 gr Crosman.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

(E Test)
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer spring.
Using a OEM 6/7# Storm Rider Round wire spring, 3.360" long, .384" O/S Dia,
.300" I/S dia, 25 coils, .035" thick round wire, coil bound at 1.020", 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

E-1 test
Here is something I found out that is very interesting with this DF II, 22cal rifle
I lubed all pivot points, and the oil wiper seal and shot these Oiled 3 pump tests.

F Test
Same test as all the previous tests, the only item changed was the hammer weight to 533 gr
and Hammer spring weight of 9-10#'s.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,.022" thick Flat wire,
14 gr Crosman ammo. 2 complete turns on pump rod head.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

G test
Same test as the above test, only item changed was lengthen the pump rod head
to maximum distance, to not block the air inlet hole, and oiled the wiper seal oiler.
Using a Flat wire spring, 2.500" long, weight = 8-9#'s, .415" O/S Dia, .265" I/S Dia,
.022" thick Flat wire, Alum Hammer weight at 533grains. 14 gr Crosman ammo.
All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.


Your thoughts and or suggestions................
Tia,
Don

[Spacebus]

Those gains at high pumps are impressive! This is begging for a 25 cal barrel/receiver combo from Wes. I look forward to seeing what happens if/when you make a custom valve and/or piston.

[HPP-Mechanic]

QUOTE: All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet.

NvReloader, Curious why you stopped at .145???

I finally got around to do some testing, and discovered that my stockDragonfly2 saw no gains or losses with the softer Stormrider hammer spring. The bolt pulls back so much easier though.
I made the mistake (again) of oiling with silicone oil, and realized my mistake when the pumping got harder & harder. A few drops of Mobil1 on the pump smoothed things out once again. I wonder how many Dragonfly's have been returned because of pumping issues caused by the wrong lube? Keep the Silicone oil away from these pumpers.

I have a new valve coming, and plan on opening everything up to .161. Will try then with both hammer springs too.
Fun guns for sure, just need to quiet down the noisy (klack! Klack!) pump after all this.


 (p.s. Pyramyd Air has a service repair kit available, and its not $3000!)

[Nvreloader]

HPP
The reason for using the .145" reamer was, with the slightly different air ways being from
.134" to .136" in diameter, the .145" reamer was the closest to the OEM hole size I had on hand
without ordering a .138/140" size.

I have .1562" reamer that I may try for the next step, I like where this DF II is at now,
have been plinking a lot, have started on the 3rd can of Crosmans, so I think
it is broke in now.

As for the klackity Klack sound I believe that it is coming from the center pivot point,
there is approximately 1/8" of play there, which is (I THINK), a safety zone for the
depth of stroke during the handle lockup etc.

There is also a quarter circle cam/roller setup cut into the steel hump handle shank,
I can't see any movement on mine. What it does?  I don't know yet.
Does your DF II have this cam also?

Do not fast pump this rifle, it likes a slow rate of pumping effort,
I use a 3 second count per pump stroke.

What cal are you shooting? What was the average for a 10 pump test?

As for lube, I Ballistol for everything up stream of the pump head "o" rings.
And I found out that keeping the foam oiler ring well oiled helps the FPS out,
as you can see in test E-1 results.

When I got my refurb rifle, it was very hard to pump, I used Ballistal and then it loosen up.

When fully cock the pump handle, at maximum stroke OPEN, can you see the pump head "O" ring?
On mine, I could see about half of the "O" ring showing in the bottom of the slot,
just ahead of the air inlet hole.

Where did you find a valve for the DFII?

Thanks,
Don

QUOTE: All air passageways opened up to .145" Dia (reamed), removed air filter at valve inlet. NvReloader, Curious why you stopped at .145???

I finally got around to do some testing, and discovered that my stockDragonfly2 saw no gains or losses with the softer Stormrider hammer spring. The bolt pulls back so much easier though.
I made the mistake (again) of oiling with silicone oil, and realized my mistake when the pumping got harder & harder. A few drops of Mobil1 on the pump smoothed things out once again. I wonder how many Dragonfly's have been returned because of pumping issues caused by the wrong lube? Keep the Silicone oil away from these pumpers.
I have a new valve coming, and plan on opening everything up to .161. Will try then with both hammer springs too.
Fun guns for sure, just need to quiet down the noisy (klack! Klack!) pump after all this.
 (p.s. Pyramyd Air has a service repair kit available, and its not $3000!)

[Psipumper]

Ok Guys
Thanks for the information,

Here is some information on this DFY II,
BBl overall length = 22-5/8" = 22 cal,

Pressure tube dimensions = .875" O/S Dia, .745 I/S dia,
 
Pump rod stroke depth = 6.940" = Maximum stroke depth, head Dia = .730",
with a "O" ring seal = .112" thick x I/S Dia = .527", O/S Dia =.750",

Inside valve dimensions = .390" I/S Dia x 2.120" long, inlet hole .102"

Hammer weight = 876 grains, with 1.100' stroke 

Poppet stem protrusion = .180"

PSI Pumper
Can you share with me the formula or a site that has this CC capacity's for what you were talking about.
I found a site and entered my info and came up with 11.73 CI for the volume
of the tube for compression = 6.940" stroke x .745" dia, just don't look right.

Thanks All,
Don

I will try.
Volume of a cylinder: pi x R2 x stroke
So 3.1416 x .372 x .372 x 6.940 = 3.025 cubic inches. Converted to cc = 49.6 cc per pump.
To get the pressure in the valve per pump : 49.6 divided by valve internal volume = pressure in bar.
So if we use 4.5 cc as the valve size.
49.6 /4.5 = 11.02 bar.
To convert bar to psi multiply by 14.50377.
11.02 x 14.50377 = 160 psi per pump.
160 psi would be at 100 percent pumping efficiency but because of headspace and cooling of the pumped air 90% is about the best it can be. 160 x .9 = 144 psi per pump.
So at 12 pumps: 144 x 12 = 1725 psi.
    From the measurements of your valve hole I only got 4.15 cc . The internal parts are usually about 1 cc.
I think you are closer to 3 cc than 4.5 now.
I am impressed with the power you are making now. The headspace must be fairly small now but could be improved.
For reference I have a 392 with a 4.5   cc valve. At 10 pumps the pressure is 1685 psi, using the 14.3 grain crosman pellets  875 fps.
The transfer port is .170

Not sure why the poppet stem on the DF2 only protrudes .187 out from the valve. Is there a way to change that to .350 ?  Having to work with the hammer spring to stop the hammer from bottoming out  ain’t good.
  Good luck
Charles

[Nvreloader]

Psipumper

THANK YOU for the volume of cylinder info,
I missed it, now I have some home work to do....been a very long time......LOL

The spec's on the top and bottom poppet/seals are as follows,
Top valve seal = .685" long x.293" dia with a rear step down of .232" Dia x .188" long
for spring seat, with a 30* taper x.200" long, (tapered seal area)

Bottom poppet = .620" long x.315" dia with a .234" dia step down .405" long for spring seat,
tapered seal area, valve stem dia = .115" x .180" stem protrusion length.

All of these valve parts and the spring inside a .390" dia x 2.120" volume space,
kind'a cramped inside there.
I am surprised it works as well as it does.

I have a new complete valve coming, so I can compare and then I'll open the inside of the valve as wide as possible, and change the top and bottom poppet seats to a square flat design,
to get away from the tapered seat now used, easier to open and seal etc.

Since I have a new valve, I'll open the air passages to .1562" and do another 15 pump test,
I have also lengthened the pump rod stroke to the maximum distance and NOT block the air intake hole.
The last test "G" was the end results.

When you say XYZ cc valve, do you mean internal volume?

Taking careful measurements to see if I can get the hammer resting off the end of the valve,
I DON"T like having a cocked/loaded muzzle, waving around while cocking,
I'll have to measure the standing rest distance of the hammer face to valve rear face and stem protrusion etc.

Thanks,
Your thoughts and suggestions........
Don

[Nvreloader]

HPP

Thanks,
Have a new complete valve coming..........    
Don

[Psipumper]

Don
Yes , the internal volume of the assembled valve. I ran the numbers for your.390x 2.120 valve hole and got .25325 cu. Inches. Multiplied that by 16.38706 to convert it to cc.
4.15 cc. I estimated the internal parts to be about 1.1cc, which is what crosman pumpers average.
4.15 - 1 = about 3cc

To measure the internal valve part volume:
I fill a 10ml syringe to 7 with water and drop the  parts in except for the poppet and then lower the head of the poppet down into the water. The new water level in the syringe is the volume of the valve internals .
Of note here is one ml is the same as 1 cc so no conversion from ml to cc is required.

Don , you could put a small dab of modeling clay a few millimeters thick on the bottom of the flat top piston and then pump the gun once and see how thin it squeezes out to. I know you have it adjusted out as far as you can with the air hole but would be good to know.

Perhaps the crosman Maurauder poppet could be fitted. I think the stem is .124 on it so reaming the valve to .125 required. 1.093 from sealing surface to end.

What material is the valve made from ?

[Nvreloader]

Hi Charles
The valve is made from Alum, the valve seat/poppet are a hard plastic material,
unk what type, I do have some Peek rod I can use?
Go to page #17, post#332, and there is a photo of the valve and parts etc.
https://ibb.co/8b8nZD7

I was aware of the clay trick, now that I have the pump rod head out as long as possible,
I'll see just what is the remaining distance, the next time I tear her apart..

I do know, that when I pump to 10 pumps, I get approximately .025 - .030" of set back from the pump rod due to the contained pressure from pumping, So I due have that as an added safety amount, above the valve head.

I hunt up a 10cc syringe and check the top/bottom parts to see the approx volume etc.

Thank you,
Don