Diana 350 .177 went off like a cannon-blast and smoke!

[HectorMedina]

Peter.- glad to see you back and so "spirited", LOL!

I think that the difference between you and Jeff is purely semantical. For you, dieseling is the amount of energy contributed to the pellet by lubricant combustion. For Jeff, detonation is the loud sound.
So, in essence I think both of you are right, you're just disagreeing on how to call things, when AaMoF, you ARE talking of different things.

I have also been guilty of saying that heavy pellets "diesel less", when in reality I should have said that they detonate less. But sometimes, we all get wrapped up in the established terminology simply because we have not had the chance to think of a different term. Like the Pellet Dwell Time vs. Lock Time discussion we had some months ago.

Anyway, glad to see you back in action.

One more comment we seldom make: the human mind is a peculiar instrument and sometimes acts on assumptions.
It is true that projectiles (specially slender spitzer projectiles)  start decelerating LESS after the first 50-150 yards (depending on the conditions), so to the human mind that EXPECTS a time delay to the "thump" of the projectile into the target, it may seem that the bullet accelerated. No it didn't, but it DID increase it BC when the bullet "went to sleep" (stopped yawing, preceding and nutating).
Also some pellets go to sleep after the first 10-20 yards, so the groups at very close range are not as good as the pellets at mid range. Which is also one of the main reasons why I deeply dislike the 3/8" kz's in FT at short range.  ;-)

Lastly, yes, Charles should not be shooting super-light pellets in that 350 or the 460, it is an overstressing of the gun.
Hopefully, he will find some 10 grainers that can be economical enough to shoot and shoot decently for him.

BTW H&N is saturated and running at full steam, but the 0.22" pellets are getting priority.
JSB is also running at full steam, but lead pellets are getting priority
So, gettiing the heavy non-lead pellets we have been asking BOTH companies to make will need some more time till all this pandeminc situation begins to stabilize.


Keep well and shoot straight!






HM

[phoebeisis]

Don't think I will get into the why the front sight flew forward so far and soooo fast

I treated it like a pitcher throwing a baseball- speed can't be more than hand speed-

not like a bat hitting a baseball(with an elastic sorta impact) where speed can be more than bat speed-elastic sorta collision



It occurs to me that if the ignition/detonation of the oil-happens well before the piston reaches touch down

The pressure in the chamber will RESIST-maybe even prevent the piston from crashing onto the breech-

so perhaps the ignition detonation actually PREVENTED the piston from hitting the breech


Now the ignition-detonation will push most of the  rifle FORWARD-while pushing the piston and spring BACKWARDS-sorta the reverse of the initial recoil

The piston might not touch down-but there will still be a violent forward push on rifle-pressure pushes on front of compression chamber

So 1st recoil push is on rear of compression chamber by spring-typical gun recoil

2nd recoil  push is on front of compression chamber- pressurized gases -the OIL explodes-pushing on front of compression chamber-opposite recoil

Maybe detonation prevents piston from touching-can still have violent recoil-gas will explode ignite  violently-push on piston and front of compression chamber-both move-rifle forward-

piston reward ward-site moves forward then slips off when gun"stops"

Pure guess-but the gun shoots great-

I will pull  it apart eyeball seal-especially on 460 which had 3000 or more light-9 grain .22 pellets shot

Thanks

Charlie

[RedFeather]

Maybe it's as simple a thing as a loose sight? It sounds like what you have experienced is what some call detonation, not deisling. The air which is compressed encompasses two things; vapors and airborne particles, plus latent heat. When it is suddenly compressed, the heat becomes concentrated (as in a heat pump), the temperature rapidly rises to a flash point for a split second. and any combustibles, well, they combust, hence deisling. Too much vapor from excess lubes will accelerate to the point of  detonation. That shoves the piston back, sending energy in the form of a shock wave back into the spring. Too many such shocks will break the spring. Add to that piston rebound due to slam as a result of too light pellets. I would suggest doubling your light weight pellets. They will give the desired resistance in the breech plus may print well, not to mention give you (and the gun) a better shot cycle. Marginally expensive compared to a rebuild. And, for what it's worth, I would be loathe to over-analyze every facet of shooting. There's a lot less known about airgun performance than firearms. Folks have tried to analyze them and are still trying. I leave them to it, continuing to do the best with what I've got, lol.

[Bayman]

Maybe it's as simple a thing as a loose sight? It sounds like what you have experienced is what some call detonation, not deisling. The air which is compressed encompasses two things; vapors and airborne particles, plus latent heat. When it is suddenly compressed, the heat becomes concentrated (as in a heat pump), the temperature rapidly rises to a flash point for a split second. and any combustibles, well, they combust, hence deisling. Too much vapor from excess lubes will accelerate to the point of  detonation. That shoves the piston back, sending energy in the form of a shock wave back into the spring. Too many such shocks will break the spring. Add to that piston rebound due to slam as a result of too light pellets. I would suggest doubling your light weight pellets. They will give the desired resistance in the breech plus may print well, not to mention give you (and the gun) a better shot cycle. Marginally expensive compared to a rebuild. And, for what it's worth, I would be loathe to over-analyze every facet of shooting. There's a lot less known about airgun performance than firearms. Folks have tried to analyze them and are still trying. I leave them to it, continuing to do the best with what I've got, lol.

Yep this ^

H&N lightweight pellets say "PCP Only" right on the tin to prevent people from damaging their guns. A very lightweight pellet in a magnum springer is asking for damaging detonation and a supersonic crack. As Hector also pointed out dieseling and detonation are different. Minor dieseling is normal, detonation, like the loud crack heard from a dry fire is not. Excessive dieseling can damage the gun. Detonation will certainly damage the gun. Determining if a gun is detonating as its shooting supersonic is not as easy when it's not. Generally smoke and oil smell is not a good thing. While it's common to new piston guns, it should clear in time with appropriate weight pellets. With lightweight pellets (or dry firing) guns are more likely to detonate. With heavier pellets they will diesel more but dieseling is far less damaging.

I'm not sure I understood the part of doubling the lightweight pellets, but I'm assuming he means doubling the weight. Not shooting two pellets through the gun at the same time. That should never be done as it might jam the gun.

Anyway enjoy your new rifle and do with it as you please. It's your gun but if you want it to last long I'd stay away from the light weight pellets. Personally I don't shoot anything lighter than 7.33 grains in my little 8 fpe Hw30s and nothing under 8 grains in my other mid power springers. A magnum like your 350 I'd be shooting at least an 8.44 grain pellet. I'm sure it's quite capable of shooting 10 grain pellets. Again it's your call and good luck.

[subscriber]

Thanks for the perspective, Hector

[subscriber]

I think it is fair to say that with an appropriate weight pellet, the piston in a springer does not crash into the end of the cylinder directly.  The piston bounces on high pressure air, short of the end of the cylinder, then after the pellet has left the barrel (ideally), the piston slams into the cylinder, but after picking up speed from only a fraction of the full stroke.

Shooting a pellet that is too light may have the piston actually crash into the end of the cylinder.  Apart from the crack that a light pellet may produce should it exceed the speed of sound, there will be harshness felt in the stock from the piston crash. 

The question is, how much of a slapping sound would such a piston crash produce when firing a "too light" pellet?  I can see that any slapping sound could be drowned out, or attributed to the pellet; actually or assumed to be supersonic.  When dry firing, there is no pellet to be supersonic, but perhaps the air leaving the muzzle is supersonic.  If not, then the piston slapping the end of the cylinder must be louder than when shooting even a light weight pellet.

Rather than me claim that dry firing can't produce enough pressure to raise the temperature to oil ignition point, perhaps I need to consider that there are at least two factors that produce dieseling (apart from available fuel droplets): 

1. The compression ratio is an important factor.  With no pellet loaded there is no numerical compression ratio, but there is an airflow velocity that will choke the flow through the TP.  If choked flow velocity is reached, the pressure in the compression chamber would continue rising (assuming the piston has enough momentum and travel left before crashing).

2. The other factor that matters in diesel ignition is time.  Compression needs to be fast, else the heat generated will dissipate and the temperature will not build to the ignition point.  A piston that is not cushioned by a loaded pellet with be moving very fast.  Perhaps the shorter time constant could make up for the lack of effective compression ratio, and still light oil vapor.  Perhaps the friction of air through the TP could help increase the temperature.

My contention is still that if a light pellet causes piston slam, then dry firing would produce much harsher piston slam.  That is going to produce violent vibration in the gun and audible sound.  Could that sound and vibration be mistaken for detonation?  Either way, someone with mechanical sympathy will avoid operating conditions that produce harness; whatever the source.

[subscriber]

How does one know what pellet weight is right for your springer?

There is no one answer, but generally it is the combination of pellet weight, "holding force" between skirt and breech cone, sealing and friction down the barrel that produces the highest pellet FPE (when there is not significant dieseling occurring).  Any energy in the piston that is not transferred to the pellet has the potential to hammer the airgun mechanism.

Generally if you shoot pellets .177 from 5 to 14 grains, there will be some that produce higher and some lower FPE.  This will happen at the light and heavy end of the pellet weight spectrum; with a range in the "middle" that produces near peak FPE.

Too heavy a pellet tends to produce excessive piston bounce and is known to be hard on the spring.

The simplest way to determine a "good pellet" is by a lack of harshness on firing.   Often the velocity spread will be the narrowest in that range, with tighter groups.  If you experience unexpected harshness, increase or decrease the pellet weight until the mechanism seems happy.  You can revisit the search for the "best pellet" later after break-in and excess lube has burnt off.

[Jeff Marshall]

Maybe it's as simple a thing as a loose sight? It sounds like what you have experienced is what some call detonation, not deisling. The air which is compressed encompasses two things; vapors and airborne particles, plus latent heat. When it is suddenly compressed, the heat becomes concentrated (as in a heat pump), the temperature rapidly rises to a flash point for a split second. and any combustibles, well, they combust, hence deisling. Too much vapor from excess lubes will accelerate to the point of  detonation. That shoves the piston back, sending energy in the form of a shock wave back into the spring. Too many such shocks will break the spring. Add to that piston rebound due to slam as a result of too light pellets. I would suggest doubling your light weight pellets. They will give the desired resistance in the breech plus may print well, not to mention give you (and the gun) a better shot cycle. Marginally expensive compared to a rebuild. And, for what it's worth, I would be loathe to over-analyze every facet of shooting. There's a lot less known about airgun performance than firearms. Folks have tried to analyze them and are still trying. I leave them to it, continuing to do the best with what I've got, lol.

Yep this ^

H&N lightweight pellets say "PCP Only" right on the tin to prevent people from damaging their guns. A very lightweight pellet in a magnum springer is asking for damaging detonation and a supersonic crack. As Hector also pointed out dieseling and detonation are different. Minor dieseling is normal, detonation, like the loud crack heard from a dry fire is not. Excessive dieseling can damage the gun. Detonation will certainly damage the gun. Determining if a gun is detonating as its shooting supersonic is not as easy when it's not. Generally smoke and oil smell is not a good thing. While it's common to new piston guns, it should clear in time with appropriate weight pellets. With lightweight pellets (or dry firing) guns are more likely to detonate. With heavier pellets they will diesel more but dieseling is far less damaging.

I'm not sure I understood the part of doubling the lightweight pellets, but I'm assuming he means doubling the weight. Not shooting two pellets through the gun at the same time. That should never be done as it might jam the gun.

Anyway enjoy your new rifle and do with it as you please. It's your gun but if you want it to last long I'd stay away from the light weight pellets. Personally I don't shoot anything lighter than 7.33 grains in my little 8 fpe Hw30s and nothing under 8 grains in my other mid power springers. A magnum like your 350 I'd be shooting at least an 8.44 grain pellet. I'm sure it's quite capable of shooting 10 grain pellets. Again it's your call and good luck.

Ron, I'm quite sure that Redfeather did suggest shooting two pellets at the same time. As long as they are against each other, they won't jam.

I've shot a fair amount of 7 grain wadcutters out of my HW30/R7's and the shot cycle is good...I don't think they are doing any harm, and the difference between 7
and 7.33 is probably splitting hairs.

7 grains is my minimum weight, though. (are there any lead pellets less that 7gr.? Beeman laser maybe...(I just looked, Lasers are 6.5gr.))

[Bayman]

Maybe it's as simple a thing as a loose sight? It sounds like what you have experienced is what some call detonation, not deisling. The air which is compressed encompasses two things; vapors and airborne particles, plus latent heat. When it is suddenly compressed, the heat becomes concentrated (as in a heat pump), the temperature rapidly rises to a flash point for a split second. and any combustibles, well, they combust, hence deisling. Too much vapor from excess lubes will accelerate to the point of  detonation. That shoves the piston back, sending energy in the form of a shock wave back into the spring. Too many such shocks will break the spring. Add to that piston rebound due to slam as a result of too light pellets. I would suggest doubling your light weight pellets. They will give the desired resistance in the breech plus may print well, not to mention give you (and the gun) a better shot cycle. Marginally expensive compared to a rebuild. And, for what it's worth, I would be loathe to over-analyze every facet of shooting. There's a lot less known about airgun performance than firearms. Folks have tried to analyze them and are still trying. I leave them to it, continuing to do the best with what I've got, lol.

Yep this ^

H&N lightweight pellets say "PCP Only" right on the tin to prevent people from damaging their guns. A very lightweight pellet in a magnum springer is asking for damaging detonation and a supersonic crack. As Hector also pointed out dieseling and detonation are different. Minor dieseling is normal, detonation, like the loud crack heard from a dry fire is not. Excessive dieseling can damage the gun. Detonation will certainly damage the gun. Determining if a gun is detonating as its shooting supersonic is not as easy when it's not. Generally smoke and oil smell is not a good thing. While it's common to new piston guns, it should clear in time with appropriate weight pellets. With lightweight pellets (or dry firing) guns are more likely to detonate. With heavier pellets they will diesel more but dieseling is far less damaging.

I'm not sure I understood the part of doubling the lightweight pellets, but I'm assuming he means doubling the weight. Not shooting two pellets through the gun at the same time. That should never be done as it might jam the gun.

Anyway enjoy your new rifle and do with it as you please. It's your gun but if you want it to last long I'd stay away from the light weight pellets. Personally I don't shoot anything lighter than 7.33 grains in my little 8 fpe Hw30s and nothing under 8 grains in my other mid power springers. A magnum like your 350 I'd be shooting at least an 8.44 grain pellet. I'm sure it's quite capable of shooting 10 grain pellets. Again it's your call and good luck.

Ron, I'm quite sure that Redfeather did suggest shooting two pellets at the same time. As long as they are against each other, they won't jam.

I've shot a fair amount of 7 grain wadcutters out of my HW30/R7's and the shot cycle is good...I don't think they are doing any harm, and the difference between 7
and 7.33 is probably splitting hairs.

7 grains is my minimum weight, though. (are there any lead pellets less that 7gr.? Beeman laser maybe...(I just looked, Lasers are 6.5gr.))

Jeff I didn't mean shooting anything less than 7.33 was detrimental to the Hw30. I meant it's as light as I personally shoot in the guns. I have shot RWS Meisterkugeln 7 grain pistol pellets through them with great luck. I just can't find them reasonably priced anymore. I think the RWS Hobbies may be even lighter, I forget. My overall point was there's a reasonable pellet weight range for a given piston power plant. If you're attuned to your gun, you can feel where the shot cycle works best.

Also pellet fit has to do with initial back pressure too. A tight fitting light pellet will resist movement more than a loose heavy one. Jeff I'm sure you already know all this. I'm just posting this clarify my thoughts for anyone's future benefit.

As for shooting two pellets. You're a braver man than I to do it. I could see two square faced wadcutters possibly working but I'd still wouldn't try it. I could easily see a domed pellet spreading the skirt of the pellet in front of it and jamming. But, hey if you've done it successfully many times, your experience trumps my theory. I guess it was my left over powder burner squib fears talking.
Be well Jeff
Ron

[RedFeather]

The OP mentioned stacking two pellets. If such a combination doesn't stick in the bore, it's better, I'm my opinion, than constantly slamming a piston.

[phoebeisis]

Sorry

I am frequently unclear in writing-and too wordy.

1)Yes I am shooting 2 pellets-one literally on top of the other..177   5.2 Flat nosed Daisy-  10.4 total-sound and recoil very restrained by comparison to single light pellet

.22   same story two  8.6 grain SSP-17.4 TOTAL- restrained report and recoil.

I have been doing this with the "plan"  to perhaps  perhaps "solder" the two together-and not damage the rifles-giving me "acceptable" by my standards-accuracy-I will eventually

mark them to see which shoots most accurately-top or bottom pellet-guessing bottom pellet.



2) The heaviest NOT LEAD PELLETS I have found are PENETRATORS- 8.6 grain crosman .177(sorta brown plastic non discarding sabot)-

 and 16.7 crosman Red Plastic sabot.-they are about $18/100 in  .22    about 12 cents in .177


3)Redfeather- the sight flew off   on the 20th-30th shot-yes it was probably slightly loose-I was surprised how far/fast it traveled.


4)I don't know if the piston hits down on shots when the oil is ignited-perhaps the pressure spike is sooo high the piston is blasted back before actually making contact-just bouncing on

high pressure very hot gas.I don't know.I think some article suggested peak pressure in  compression chamber  300 ATM- 4500 PSI-piston is 1 sq inch-so 4500 lbs of force-A LOT-

resisting touch down-for less than a blink of course

4)Ron/Bayman-you are right-I looked-in tiny print-for PCP rifles only-BUT the 25.77 grain Rabbit Magnum same the same thing-no mention on either tin of WHY-

But yes maybe on the light ones it is too hard on gun-on heavy ones-maybe they get stuck?? It would be nice if they would be clear on that point.


5) I don't use  lead because it is poison  and I only shoot indoors.Neighbors wouild freak if I was shooting these very RIFLE looking rifles outside.

The PENETRATORS are pretty heavy- and can be re-used to some extent-but the skirt can't be " re-spread" like the metal pellets.Pretty expensive-

I think the double metal pellet "thing" will work-

Plan B neuter the 350-but it shoots so well as constructed -not inclined to change spring-

6)Ron just read your explanation of WHY IT MIGHT JAM-I see you point-but yes I have done it maybe 100 times-I am going to color one of them to see which hits where -which is most

accurate-my guess is front pellet is the most accurate but??  I will test it by coloring one-capturing in 40-50  layers of cardboard

7)Ron remember several months back there was a discussion of aperture/peep sights? You found a nice set-for $60 you installed on I forgot what rifle-but the idea stuck with me

I put some 'BIG APERTURE on my 1377  1322-they are a work in progress-too tall-but seems to work

Well the GLOBE front sight on the Diana 350 seems to be WORKING GREAT FOR ME- correcting my eye problems to some degree-despite being huge-maybe 15mm or so-

I have never used a globe sight-but I think it is WHY- I shoot so well with the Diana 350-

I am a crummy shot-bad eyes- no depth perception and refractive problems  and dry eys -but the Globe sight seems to make the sight

picture much more clear-something so simple-

Thanks all

Charlie

PS I get the concern over damaging the rifles-appreciate your help-and don't want to preach on the lead-wash your hands-shoot outside

[phoebeisis]

Hector

Your posts suggest that the air gun industry is actively working on lead free pellets?

I sure would like to see more choice and more interest-


I am surprised the Europeans are not pushing LEAD FREE PELLETS harder. in general Europe is a bit more "green" then the USA- and more intrusive.

In the USA Waterfowl being poisoned-30 years or so ago-brought about steel shot for hunters-their ox was being gored  fewer ducks geese-so steel shot was not fought against hard

I don't hunt-brother does-but the resistance to steel shot was not that dramatic-despite it making many pricy shotguns not useable-

No really good reason why NOT LEAD pellets should be sooo expensive- 

copper is maybe 4x  the cost of lead  but not lead pellets are  20x the cost of lead pellets-10-15 cents each

Besides-the copper can be recycled easily-target shooters would catch every pellet-recycle them

Air gun ranges could mine  the pellets-mine them

Recycling lead is a bit hazardous-copper not at all.

[Bayman]

Charlie your concern about lead is somewhat understandable but is unbalanced to the actual danger. Lead has been demonized by many partly because it's moderately dangerous but mostly because people have made fortunes in lead abatement by scaring the public. Lead is not readily absorbed by the human body (or animals) under normal circumstances. I'm a 56 year old fisherman and have no traces of lead poisoning. Considering from as a small kid I've handled lots of lead pellets, bullets and sinkers. I used to bite down the split shots to crimp them on the line. I have a lead melting pot in my basement and pour my own jigs and have for decades. I probably shoot 50 plus pounds of lead pellets a year in my basement. If I don't have lead poisoning it's unlikely anyone will using a lick of common sense.

Now I'm not suggesting anyone put lead shot in their mouth but what I'm saying is with basic precautions like washing your hands after handling lead there's little actual danger. Years ago when my kids were toddlers I looked into the actual chances and dangers of lead exposure. The dangers to children are much greater than adults but even then I found out with simple precautions there was no actual health risk to them. They are now 20 and 22 and very smart and completely healthy. While I respect your decision to avoid lead I thought you should be informed of the real world level of the danger it presents. Btw for decades most people have been drinking water from lead pipes and more recently copper pipes soldered with lead solder. If lead was as dangerous as people are led to believe we'd all be dead or developmentally delayed.

Ohhh btw ballisticaly (spelling?) heavier lead pellets and bullets are better in many ways than lighter and harder tin, steel or copper.

 Hey you do what works for you but please be careful not to propagate false fears. Lead is not as dangerous as most people were led to believe. Well unless you're shot with a lead bullet. Then it's very dangerous. Even then you'd be injured by the bullets destructive path and not the lead itself. Lots of Veterans and civilians have lead shrapnel deliberately left in their body because removing it would risk paralysis or death.

If you want to stay "safe" by paying several times more for ballistically inferior pellets and risk damaging your spring guns, that's up to you. I'm just saying that you don't have to.

[phoebeisis]

Ron

I never bring up lead poisoning here -because it riles folks up.

But it  comes up whenever I mention the pellets I use-no way around it-

We will just have to disagree on lead. I never bring it up-but my pellets do.

In the mid 1970s I worked in a pediatric clinic-lead poisoning was very very common-manifested as anemia.They were thought to have been exposed

1) by inhaling paint dust-

2)or eating paint chips-lead oxide is said to be sweet

3)or by playing in lead contaminated streets-Tetraethyl lead??

Nowadays exposure in kids is still from lead paint-the dust or chips. Public housing developments had strict contract requirements back in the 1940's 1950s.

They literally specified lead paint-for pigment and for mold suppression- GOOD paint had high lead levels-Federally funded housing required good paint

Kids-in USA- exposure is still from lead paint-much less common  than 40 years ago

In adults exposure is probably from the job-batteries maybe-or shooting ranges-but there is far less exposure than when I was a kid or young adult

I know quite a few shooters-competitive shooters-who have been treated for lead poisoning-levels around mid 20 Nanograms  per 100 grams(actually 103 grams) of blood

so 20 parts per 100,000,000  1 part per 5,000,000 .Best guess is it is inhaling primer material Lead "styphnate" safe bet spelled wrong.
It is a touchy subject.-ENOUGH ON LEAD

 I love my Diana 350 magnum -that sucker shoots GREAT!  I have no idea why folks whine about how tough it is too shoot-you just need to lower your standards!!

It is a cannon and shoots exactly where you point it! And looks good doing it!!

I am going to cut open my BOX TARGET- see what it did to the 5.2 grain  pellets-safe bet almost none will be re-useable

Thanks all

Charlie

PS Military and others changing primer to some barium compound-I think-

[Keen]

For those of us that are of a certain age......Nobody knows how much smarter we would have been if not for leaded gasoline and lead paint. Just sayin', you can't prove a negative.

My office mate orders blood lead levels on all the kids that he sees up to age 3 if needed, and there are some exceptions for immigrant children that go upto age 16.

I only see old and stupid people. 

[subscriber]

Charles,

One reason why indoor target shooting air rifles are so low powered is concern about lead dust being created by impact with hard traps.  (The main reason is that puncturing paper at 10 meters does not require much energy).  The fact that Germany has a 5.5 FPE limit on airguns before they need a firearm license is probably another factor.

Anyway, if your primary concern is inhalation of lead dust,  I suggest that you get a HW30 and a rubber mulch trap.

If you are concerned about handling lead pellets, get disposable finger cots.

If you are married to your 5.2 grain tin pellets, I suggest you get an HW30.  It won't mind the light pellets and will be a lot of fun to shoot at indoor targets.  Yes, it will feel like a toy compared to the 350. 

I have a 350 in .177 and .22.  They are beasts at 48" long.  My .177 sounds harsh compared to the .22; unless I shoot 10+ grain pellets in it.   I like shooting offhand, but quite frankly can no longer aim them very long because they are so long and heavy.  Even my front and rear counterweights (blubber) can't seem to compensate for age related muscle atrophy.

My ideal weight and balance is the HW50.  That at least feels like a real rifle, compared to the HW30.  The HW50 is going to shoot your 5.2 grain pellets at a little over 950 FPS, which is a bit too fast, but may still work at short indoor ranges.

The HW30 should shoot the 5.2 grain pellets at about 840 FPS and would be an ideal match for such light pellets.

You don't have to worry about being "contrary" about your non-lead preference - until you campaign to make lead pellets illegal for the rest of us.  It is a personal choice, like you preferring the 350 M(onster) for indoor shooting, when there are choices that appear to be better suited.  I will say this, if you can shoot the 350 well, then shooting any low or medium powered springer will seem easy by comparison.

I would save money by shooting 7 grain lead pellets, and spend the savings on an HW30, and a soft trap - but am not going to suggest that you have to see things my way. 

I suspect that two 5.2 grain pellets separate in flight; and that the sooner they separate, the closer the front one will impact to the point of aim.  If you could join them, I wonder if they would be stable as one long pellet.  I would be very interested to see them, after being caught in a water trap to minimize damage.  I bet the rear pellet has its skirt blown out to form almost a cylinder.  The front one's skirt is also likely compressed with long engagement of the rifling.

The only time I have ever gotten a pellet stuck in a springer barrel was from trying to reshoot a pellet that "looked OK" recovered from a trap.  That pellet got stuck halfway down the barrel.  I compounded the problem by loading a pellet and trying to shoot out the stuck one; followed by another....   This was with a low powered Slavia 620 in 1974.  I have shot a number of double loads with fresh pellets from the same airgun.  The pellets had no trouble hitting the target at about 10 yards, but I had to aim high due to the low velocity, and the dispersion on target was just silly.   So, a practice that should be discouraged because it is generally asking for trouble.

I am sure you could make the 350 choke on multi loaded pellets, but would probably take 5 to leave any behind in the barrel.  I suggest you don't try that, as pellets can wedge in a barrel more tightly than one can imagine, when they become solid cylinders of lead, with long friction inducing flanks...

[Yogi]

Charles,

One reason why indoor target shooting air rifles are so low powered is concern about lead dust being created by impact with hard traps.  (The main reason is that puncturing paper at 10 meters does not require much energy).  The fact that Germany has a 5.5 FPE limit on airguns before they need a firearm license is probably another factor.

Anyway, if your primary concern is inhalation of lead dust,  I suggest that you get a HW30 and a rubber mulch trap.

If you are concerned about handling lead pellets, get disposable finger cots.

If you are married to your 5.2 grain tin pellets, I suggest you get an HW30.  It won't mind the light pellets and will be a lot of fun to shoot at indoor targets.  Yes, it will feel like a toy compared to the 350. 

I have a 350 in .177 and .22.  They are beasts at 48" long.  My .177 sounds harsh compared to the .22; unless I shoot 10+ grain pellets in it.   I like shooting offhand, but quite frankly can no longer aim them very long because they are so long and heavy.  Even my front and rear counterweights (blubber) can't seem to compensate for age related muscle atrophy.

My ideal weight and balance is the HW50.  That at least feels like a real rifle, compared to the HW30.  The HW50 is going to shoot your 5.2 grain pellets at a little over 950 FPS, which is a bit too fast, but may still work at short indoor ranges.

The HW30 should shoot the 5.2 grain pellets at about 840 FPS and would be an ideal match for such light pellets.

You don't have to worry about being "contrary" about your non-lead preference - until you campaign to make lead pellets illegal for the rest of us.  It is a personal choice, like you preferring the 350 M(onster) for indoor shooting, when there are choices that appear to be better suited.  I will say this, if you can shoot the 350 well, then shooting any low or medium powered springer will seem easy by comparison.

I would save money by shooting 7 grain lead pellets, and spend the savings on an HW30, and a soft trap - but am not going to suggest that you have to see things my way. 

I suspect that two 5.2 grain pellets separate in flight; and that the sooner they separate, the closer the front one will impact to the point of aim.  If you could join them, I wonder if they would be stable as one long pellet.  I would be very interested to see them, after being caught in a water trap to minimize damage.  I bet the rear pellet has its skirt blown out to form almost a cylinder.  The front one's skirt is also likely compressed with long engagement of the rifling.

The only time I have ever gotten a pellet stuck in a springer barrel was from trying to reshoot a pellet that "looked OK" recovered from a trap.  That pellet got stuck halfway down the barrel.  I compounded the problem by loading a pellet and trying to shoot out the stuck one; followed by another....   This was with a low powered Slavia 620 in 1974.  I have shot a number of double loads with fresh pellets from the same airgun.  The pellets had no trouble hitting the target at about 10 yards, but I had to aim high due to the low velocity, and the dispersion on target was just silly.   So, a practice that should be discouraged because it is generally asking for trouble.

I am sure you could make the 350 choke on multi loaded pellets, but would probably take 5 to leave any behind in the barrel.  I suggest you don't try that, as pellets can wedge in a barrel more tightly than one can imagine, when they become solid cylinders of lead, with long friction inducing flanks...

Yea, but the OP only wants "a deal".  I guess, even Krale is not enough of "a deal" for him.
Penny wise and pound foolish in my book...

-Y

[Bayman]

Charlie you're right we'll have to agree to disagree. I've been tested several times for occupational reasons and still don't have any detectable lead levels. You're right lead oxide as found in old paint chips (and the slag at the top of a melting pot) is the most dangerous type of lead. Especially to developing children. It can be readily absorbed orally by humans. But it's not what you normally encounter handling sinkers, pellets and bullets. Even if it were the lead dust found in ranges indoors and outdoors is too heavy to stay airborne long enough to be dangerous. What made asbestos dangerous wasn't its chemical make up but that it's fibrous and stays airborne forever. It's that prolonged exposure to something fibrous that irritated the lungs to eventually form cancer cells. In order for lead to actually become airborne enough to be inhaled it needs to be heated to double its melting point. Approximately 900 degrees. We live in a world of safety conscious people and the people who profit by controlling them with fear. I choose not to participate in either part. I choose to live my life with a healthy but practical level of caution.

[subscriber]

Asbestos fiber is bad because it imbeds in the lungs, and cannot be expelled.

I am not concerned over lead dust, but the fact that it turns white in an LDC (and barrel) tells me that it oxidizes over time.  After all, dust has  a large surface area to mass ratio.  As long as it is heavy enough to stay at ground level, I am not concerned.

If lead levels in the blood are not significant (or over that for non-shooters living in the same area), then that would seem to indicated exposure for indoor shooters is not significant.   An indoor range with poor ventilation and sweeping practices may be another story.

Some people can't be careful enough of their "chosen" irritant or toxin.  I don't like any direct exposure to free asbestos, or even glass fiber.  At the same time, shooting any airgun in the house is more about how much noise it makes, than lead exposure.  (Assuming there is no risk of shooting another person or pet)

[Toxylon]

I've been tested several times for occupational reasons and still don't have any detectable lead levels.

N=1

I wouldn't stress all that much that one person anecdotally has zero issues with lead exposure.

How I see it, based on The World Health Organisation, and recent studies such as this: https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12940-017-0246-0 

Lead is a heavy metal with NO SAFE LOWER LIMIT within the human body. Lead has a plethora of established, serious health consequences, including loss of mental acuity and infertility. Lead also accumulates in the body, so the levels rise over time / exposure, adding up.

Handling lead pellets with dry hands, and washing hands after handling pellets, has a low risk of health consequences in adults. But just having greasy fingers when handling the pellets can change the situation quickly, as a lead- oil mix is readily absorbed through the skin.

Inadvertently breathing lead dust, from shooting lead projectiles indoors, is a known source of elevated blood lead levels. In the above 2017 study review, nearly every shooting range user blood sample tested had elevated lead levels. I have zero experience with low-velocity 10 m target guns, but my 15 - 30 fpe pellet guns make lead dust, and you can bet all of it doesn't stay in the barrel.

I'm personally unconcerned about handling lead fishing weights and lead pellets on a regular basis, with the above mentioned caveats. I personally would not shoot lead indoors, as the risk is too high, and last I checked, there are no spare brains available. The infertility part, in lá lá isolation, wouldn't be that bad.