Diana 350 .177 went off like a cannon-blast and smoke!

[phoebeisis]

I was unclear-sorry-

The lead adult air rifle shooters would be exposed to would be the  fine lead-and lead oxide(as subscriber mentioned-almost all metals develop surface oxidation)- particles that would

be shaved off by the rifling-and spit out in a  bloom.Some would be spit  upward- but it is dense-so it will fall-but maybe not before you walk into the bloom-and inhale it.You can wash your hands-but..

Chamber temps-1400 k 1100 c plenty high enough to melt tiny amounts off base and skirt-perhaps even produce some vapor(which would quickly condense)


I did not bring up lead poisoning-I never do because it ends up like this-I am the bad guy fear mongering



There is no way to measure just how much low levels of lead harm you-

but older folks are probably more likely to be damaged than younger-but not children-(plausible guess)

Nothing works as well when you are older-kidney liver nothing that eliminates lead works as well-

And there is no way to tell if the neurological signs symptoms are from some sort of age related decline or subtle signs of lead poisoning-

Why  would I expose myself  to a toxic substance-nervous system   blood  liver kidney  every cell in the body- when I don't have to-especially when there is an alternative?

I was repeatedly asked why I use the destructive to guns-less accurate-more expensive lead free pellets-reasonable question

 I thought it was obvious-only one reason to use "lead free pellets" and expressed as LEAD FREE makes it obvious I am avoiding LEAD EXPOSURE-not seeking peak velocity



The lower blood level(above which treatment would be considered) is  5 nanograms per 100 mis of blood a nanogram is 1 BILLIONTH of a gram  so

5 parts per 100,000,000,000   5 parts  of blood per 100 BILLION blood parts- think I left out 3 zeros before-is the limit below which treatment not advised-treatment is potentially harmful-no free lunch

I won't bring it up again-but that is why I use the pricy pellets-but I am cheap-so I don't actually pay 10 cents per shot-BBs   reuse some

OK I won't mention lead @#%&%$#@* again

Sorry for the disruption

Charlie

PS- use a SWIFFER-wet then dry-on your floor after shooting and before walking on it-mitigate exposure- and your wife(or significant other I guess) will appreciate your sudden devotion

to house work-or shoot outside-get a 880 cheap and fun-for indoor shooting-

in the not to distant future safe bet nanny GOV will involve themselves in this-

hunters-waterfowl-adapted quickly-they aren't stupid-did not want to hard their sport-

US ARMY is switching to #@$% free projectiles-very costly-and they are working on primers

Air rifle users invariably(except in Europe etc) use firearms-I do-don't hunt-broter does-but I love guns-gun nut-one more exposure source- I have #$%^ free primers and projectiles

soon enough I will get some primers that are a barium compound-

PPS I just saw Ilimakko's post-as usual heavy on supported facts-and good  advice

[phoebeisis]

I am taking the Diana 460 apart today to get a look at the seal and where the seal and piston crash down into the compression chamber

I will take pictures-either way

It has at least 2500 SSP 8.6 grains shot through it-and perhaps as many as 4500-bought in 2015

I don't hear metal to metal contact-but crummy 70 year old ears-with plenty of firearms and motorcycle exposure-so..

I expect at least a very deformed seal and maybe a dinged up compression chamber-we'll see

Thanks all-sorry the discussion became a little heated       

SAY    LAH     VEE     

[subscriber]

The WHO don't just want to protect you from lead ammo; they don't want you handling any ammo.

As for the US military going lead free, lead poisoning is at the bottom of the list, when you are taking incoming.  If you are trying to perforate the enemy, blood lead levels "in circulation" won't matter to you - or to them.  The military does not practice enough indoors for lead ammo to be any concern.  Neither for priming compounds. 

The military "going green" is a joke.  They are there to destroy.  Imagine an electric tank, where you call a time-out to charge the batteries.   So, color me amused about lead ammo, for as long as spent uranium is still in use.  "Greening" of the military is about money laundering via new initiatives.  There is nothing polite or PC about the military's primary function.  The idea that it is OK to shred people, as long as you use correct pronouns is comedy.   This position is not acceptance of actual abuse of your own troops.

If your springer is dieseling, the particulates in the smoke are probably carcinogenic, when those can't disperse very quickly indoors.   Ask the WHO.  They will tell you that diesel engines are "bad for the planet" and for human health.   Unless you can fit your springer with a catalyst to deal with the partially burnt hydrocarbons, and a NOX reducing fluid dispenser, you might have to give it up.   From my perspective, quoting the WHO is like quoting the WEF.   

That said, anyone who wants zero lead exposure is welcome to take that path.  If tin pellets are made in .22, and you want to shoot magnum springers, perhaps that would be a better choice than .177.  Otherwise, buy or trade in, on a springer, pumper or PCP where 5.2 grain pellets would be appropriate.

[phoebeisis]

Checked the 460-2500 to 4500  more light-8.6 grain pellets

seal looked fine-compression chamber-same story

I don't doubt it will damage-break the spring earlier-

and the 5.2 in the 350 is relatively lighter than the 8.6 in the 460

so I might check it soon

[phoebeisis]

My mistake

I think I wrote  nanograms 1/1,000,000,000 gram(weird looking u) but I should have said micrograms  1/1,000,000  (Mcg)

5 micrograms per 100 mls of blood is the level of Pb below which it is better to not treat

Sorry

Charlie

PS still waiting for chronograph-really curious what sort of velocity the 5.2 will produce out of the Diana 350-it no longer sounds or smells like it is igniting oil

[Mrblonde40]

I'm still trying to figure out how you can judge which is the "more accurate" pellet when firing 2 at once.

[phoebeisis]

Good point-I was unclear

I am going to mark the front  pellet BLACK  OR BLUE- with a sharpie

Shoot it through a box-with about 40 layers of cardboard

I will find the pellet tracks-trace them to the end-they will be stuck in the cardboard-might actually stick a skewer through track(tract?? hmm)

Them look at the track closest to BULLSEYE- they seem to hit about 1-2cm apart at 5 meters or so-should be farther apart at 10 meters

If it is the colored pellet-then front pellet most accurate

It depends on having at least 1/2 or spread-which is what they have been having-and maybe having a straight track/tract?? which is iffy

I have a set up with the pellets actually attached-so far-one shot-they stayed together- 2 different types  BB PELLET     PELLET PELLET

maybe I posted that picture? posted again-goofy but they might work-and give a higher weight with less chance of damaging    spring    seal and    compression chamber

have not actually seen any evidence that light pellets  damage seal-but it is plausible-and spring breakage-plausible also so worth mitigating



I expect it will be tricker than my description-and tracks might not go straight in the cardboard-but  that is my hope

Charlie

[Yogi]

I'm still trying to figure out how you can judge which is the "more accurate" pellet when firing 2 at once.

 

-Y

[subscriber]

Charlie,

How will you load a pellet with a BB behind it in the 350?  The breech won't close, unless you deep-seat the pellet.  Deep-seating reduces the initial resistance on firing, and is like shooting a very light pellet.  So your BB mitigation may be achieving nothing useful, despite your good intentions.

If those are copper plated steel BBs you are not doing the barrel any favors.  You might try to drop a BB in from the muzzle to see if it can pass through the choke.  If not getting a BB unstuck will e your next projects.   Now imagine getting a few pellets stuck behind the BB because you thought you were missing the target. 

Drop the BB in from the muzzle with the barrel "broken", or the BB may end up in the compression chamber.  Sure, you can drop it from the breech (expecting to see daylight after), but if it is going to stick, that drop might be enough to cause you grief already; if it gets stuck at the choke.

[subscriber]

The question of group size determination when shooting two pellets at a time is easy:

Rather than shooting 5 or 10 times at one target, shoot one shot (two pellets) at each aim point.  Just space the aim points far enough apart until you get an idea of how far apart the pellets land.

Start with ink spots or colored stickers on carboard or paper, a good 4" apart.  Shoot ten "single shot groups" like that and see what happens.  Something like this:  www.amazon.com/ChromaLabel-Round-Coding-Labels-Dispenser/dp/B00VQNW6O8/

[RedFeather]

Two balls from a muzzle loader often print side by side, so your results are fairly typical. I just checked and airgun BB's are not like steel shotgun BB's which are annealed to soften them. Airgun BB's are hard steel. Not a good mix for your choke and rifling, as pointed out.

Your 460 is a testament to how well built the gun is. If I may ask, why are you shooting big magnums indoors in the first place? I get the non-lead angle but those guns are simply not intended for light pellets. Shot cycle myst be pretty harsh.

[Jeff Marshall]

Two balls from a muzzle loader often print side by side, so your results are fairly typical. I just checked and airgun BB's are not like steel shotgun BB's which are annealed to soften them. Airgun BB's are hard steel. Not a good mix for your choke and rifling, as pointed out.

Your 460 is a testament to how well built the gun is. If I may ask, why are you shooting big magnums indoors in the first place? I get the non-lead angle but those guns are simply not intended for light pellets. Shot cycle myst be pretty harsh.

^^^^^^^ like :-)

[HectorMedina]

I commend the members for holding a civil discussion. Heated, yes, but civil. Congrats to all!

DIANA seals are designedwith SOME regard to the fact that many store owners think that dry-firing the pellet gun in front of the customer and letting them hear the sonic crack is a good selling point.

Charles documented runs of light pellets will, for me, be valuable information about the performance of the materials we have chosen and have used for the last 20 years.

Bottom line to me is that Charles is happy with what works for HIM. And he is, now, fully conscious of the possible consequences from the good advice and info he has received. So, it is up to us to let him be.

Everyone has done its part in this micro-society we have with excellent manners so, again, congrats to all!

Two points I would like to make:

1.- It is fairly well established that the combustion/dieseling happens within the TP. When this combustion acts as a spark plug to deflagrate the oil mist in the compression chamber is when we have a true "detonation". The technical/practical difference between a combustion and a detonation is simply the flame front velocity. Flame fronts advance MUCH quicker when there is a mixture of the precise stoichiometry present, and that is more achievable with a dry fire than with a heavy pellet dieseling situation.

2.- The problem/cost of non-lead pellets lies in the relatively higher swaging pressures involved. These derive from the non-linearity of hardness vs. purity behaviour of tin. Just as examples:
Industrially pure tin (99.9% pure) has a BhN of 9
Semi-Lab quality tin (99.99%) can go to BhN of 6
Lab quality Tin (99.999%) can go as low as 2.

Industrially Pure lead, by contrast is 6

Midway claims a BhN of 2.5 for the tin they sell, but at these extremes of the testers, the reality is that the numbers are not really "telling".

So, manufacturers have had to develop their OWN procedures for testing and accepting batches.
They also need to dedicate whole lines of equipment to tin projectiles because any contamination, ANY, will cause a dramatic rise in hardness and therefore a dramatic increase in swaging pressures.
So, the cost increase is not only in the material, but in the whole capital cost of having machines dedicated to that metal and KEEPING them separate.
Also, if you add 1 to the cost at the production level, the difference at the retail level will be 4, so if tin is about 60% more expensive than lead, then just on that count, tin pellets should be 1.6 times more expensive than lead pellets.

Under the current conditions, manufacturers are preferring to devote the little available production resources to the production of those pellets that produce the most margin, and those are the lead 0.22" cal ones.

Keep well and shoot straight!






HM

[phoebeisis]

Oh-I was unclear-thought I mentioned that I did not-and won't   -shoot BBs in the Dianas  HWs or TX200.

I shot the .177 "hybrids" in a $20 Chinese B3 I bought 30 years ago-Gun Show-it is not a bad gun for $20

I shoot the .22 in the Crosman NP Phantom break barrel -the gun that is horrible to cock and it soured me on break barrels because I assumed they were all horrible to cock

 I hate it   -strange to hate a thing-but I hate it-  It is really awkward to cock-   but it actually shoots pretty decent-

It has  a drop in trigger-sold here by  widow of a member--great trigger-he was talented maker of triggers-forget his name-$35 or so-well worth it-



The Chinese B3 I  like-has a really light trigger-no safety  at all-cockeyed sights but shoots fine- .177

They are test mules-

1)testing to see how accurate hybrid arrangements are-

2)and to see if they will hold together

3) see how the velocity -report- recoil  change with heavier "pellet"-the answer  is  they change a lot-but the B3 not that powerful anyway-the Phantom-is powerful-probably

close to the HW 77K I think-judging from penetration in pine

Anyway that is the story of the hybrid pellets-the .177 to  .177 PELLETs look like they might work "ok"-same story .22 to .22 pellets

I probably would not use the .177 BB-.22 pellet in the  good rifles-the BB "might" stay off the rifling-I will test it-capture it-eyeball for rifling abrasions-see if it will hold together

but probably would never trust it in the pricy rifles that I actually like

No surprise the "shot cycle" which I take to mean the weird recoil springer produce-is very mild-   same story report-the Phantom is actually pretty powerful-from penetration in

pine-about like HW77K-

And yes Hector M is right-considering the touchy nature of the  subject-this was a pretty civil discussion

Must say I am amazed no one else uses those Pb free pellets-the Daisy's were in short supply for a while-and when they returned-1 week ago- to Daisy's "shelves"

they were double the price  were $4.50 per 250  now $9.50 per 250 with $15 shipping for up to 10 tins. Who in heck-other than me-is buying them??

Thanks

Charlie

PS Hector-so the salesmen DRY fire the Dianas?? Explains the no sign of seal or cylinder or piston damage-heck barely looked used-despite at least 2500 8.6 grain shots

Yeah sturdy ownerproof guns-no surprise-Diana knows how to make air guns-you have to ownerproof items that kids and childish adults like me-use!

And I still prefer-slightly-the T06 to the too little feel 2nd stage REKORD AND REKORD CLONE triggers(they are great-but I perfer a bit more feedback and resistance-and movement

in 2nd stage

-shooting standing all "tight" from holding 9 lbs of gun

 I want some movement-not THINK FIRE and BAM- fine for resting-but not for standing freehand

[phoebeisis]

Subscriber-thanks for the tips-and the amazon tip

Redfeather-thanks for the tip on the annealed  BBs and about the comparison to muzzle loaders

Suburbia-can't shoot outdoors-neighbors would freak-swat at door-people do not mind their own business

they would think the NO FIREARM report was a sign I was a TERRORIST using a silencer

Yes this was a  civil discussion considering the subject.

I will post velocity numbers in 1 hr or so.

Caldwell chronograph worked ok-took some getting used to-but worked ok

I was a little bit off with my 1300 fps guess for the 5.2 out of the Diana 350-it did cut a very very clean hole so 1300 fps  seemed ballpark-it wasn't.

I tested the Diana 460 and the Crosman 1377 and 1322-numbers about what you would expect-nothing dramatic

Thanks all-appreciate the discussion

Charlie

[phoebeisis]

Velocity-Caldwell chronograph- worked ok-typically  about 3 error messages for every reading-used chronograph-Oheler 33 or 35 waaaay back early 1980's

You are so careful to not hit sky screens-you shoot too high-get error message-especially indoors-yes I hit the sky screens more than once ($10/each back then) the Caldwell

is all in one-shoot it and that is that-dead chronograph-

These numbers look about right- and in line with the numbers I saw from STRAIGHTSHOOTERS.COM- their .177 Diana 350

numbers peaked at 23 ft lbs for a 6.7 grain  H N  green 1107fps pellet  peak velocity HN GREEN 5.8 1196 FPS

Looking at that  my 1414 FPS  with 5.2 grain pellet  seems high-but different rifle-mine is new-perhaps still burning some oil-but I don't smell it-pellet brand different-who knows-the

other chronograph numbers  other guns seem in line-and the other 2 5.2  were same  ball park- 6 Meters less(I had it set on meters-converted 3.28) should have used FPS better

resolution-I will try some tomorrow

The 1322 1377 pistols-10 or so pumps-they seem in line with what I read-so rifle shots probably right too


Crosman 1377 .177     5.2 grain   593fps  4.1 Ft Lbs

Crosman 1322  .22      9.5 grain   475fps  4.8 Ft Lb

Diana      460   .22      8.6 grain   951fps  17.3 ft lbs

Diana     460    .22      9.5 grain   967fps  19.8 ft lbs

Diana     350   .177     4.2 grain   1387fps     17.8 ft lbs

Diana     350   .177     5.2 grain   1414fps   23.2 ft lbs

The 1414 fps- pretty fast-but 5.2 is pretty light-I did not smell any oil burning smell-or smoke like the first cannon shots days ago-probably 300 shots in-

The initial shots-with the HUGE blast and smoke-cut  holes in the paper that looked like some sharp punch had done it-dead clean-no idea how fast-but faster than this shot I guess

Thanks all

Charlie

PS As I mentioned-can't shoot outside-neighbors-suburbia- 

and I just like the powerful Dianas-sturdy rifles that look like rifles should-and seemingly ownerproof judging from 460s seal

 after 2500-4500   8.6 grain shots -looked barely used-not dented or deformed-same story interior of CC-which my photo did not show very well

and the 350 shoots- great-accurate-

I never shoot that well-not 10 meters standing stock sights-the 1 high one was a flyer-number 3 - I knew I had let my wobble get the best of me

should have stopped-taken a few seconds-but I am never patient-so but I never shoot that well-except with this 350 for some reason

I love this cannon-even the BAM (ear plugs always)

PS- Pretty sure the GLOBE sight is why I shoot so well with this 350.Never used one before-actually never heard of them before. But it seems to act like a gigantic peep sight

correcting some of my refractive error-and making my lack of depth perception(born without one aspect of depth perception according to Air Force-  back when -1968

they  would test you -have you look in box- two planes projected on invisible screen which plane is closer  I had no idea)

Anyway if anyone likes .177's break barrels-and open sights-hard to beat the Diana 350.

[subscriber]

Charlie,

I am not at all surprised that your 350 was shooting the 5.2 grain pellets at over 1300 FPS.  That is well within its rated FPE - without burning lube.

The image of the piston seal you posted does not show high temperature damage; so I did not post this before (image below with red arrows): 

The seal shows what looks like slight nicks from contact with sharp cocking slot edges on the compression tube.  That would have happened on assembly, and is not germane to dieseling.  Unfortunately, such marks are fairly common; even on Weihrauch springers.   So, the attitude seems to be that the cost saving of not deburring the punched tubes makes up for the customer complaints that might result from what we see as "easily avoidable seal damage".

Functionally; if hot compressed air does leak at such a nick in the seal, it usually starts to melt the seal and then degrades very rapidly.  This has not happened with your seal, and possibly never will (a seal nick can also act as a focal point for a fatigue failure in the future). 

You will know if the piston seal has ripped or melted, because the pellet velocity will drop off drastically, and the shot cycle will become "slammy".  If you ignore that, the stock screws will most likely come loose, and the action will move so much in the stock as to "chew" or pound a larger cavity in the inletting.

The only other thing I notice about the steel piston face is that it is "polished".  That might be original, or it could be from impact with the end of the compression cylinder.  Either way, it does not look like a "car crash" . 

The fact that you have opened up the airgun and reassembled it will make it easier, should it need a new seal in the future.  Then, using a needle file to deburr the cocking slot edges will help extend the life of the new seal you will need to install.  At that time, cleaning out filings and applying fresh lube will be necessary.  Then the fun discussion will be "what lube is best" - but that is a whole other topic that has been covered many times on the forum.

[phoebeisis]

Subscriber

Thanks for the tips.

So 1414 fps is not too suprising-I was a little surprised-but as you say 23 ft abs-ball park for a new 350.

I am not sure those are nicks-think I might have commented that in real life they looked like "nothing" or maybe even  STREAK OF GOO

But if as you say the assemblers are not too careful and they don't spend the 6 or so minutes-German wages-who knows- $40/hr- another $4 in cost-

if Numrich retails for $250(sure seems low) it must wholesale for under $200-so ever minute counts

I might take another look-is the cocking slot accessible-funny I had it apart-but can't really picture it?

I probably should take a look at the 350.It probably is taking more of a beating than the 460


A 8.6 in a .22 460 is relatively heavier than a 5.2 in a .177.

I might risk a no ear plugs shot in the 350-it made such a BLAST that first shot-I have worn them since that shot

The 460 doesn't require plugs-not that loud-no surprise waaaay subsonic-

But the 350 might not even drop to trans sonic range in the 10 meters-the below is from straightshooters.com their test of the 350-it dropped just under 200 fps in 10 meters(might be yards?) but it is heavier certainly better ballistic coefficient-the 5.2 are flat nosed- 

I am still tinkering with getting heavier pellets-especially for the 350-
Thanks

Charlie

     FTT Green Lead Free
 claimed wt                        5.56
actual wt                           5.80
 muzzle vel                        1198
energy muzzle                   19
10 meter velocity               1004
10 meter energy                 13
25 meter velocity               850
25 meter energy                9
50 meter velocity               682
50 meter energy                6
 ballistic coe.                    .014

[RedFeather]

Phoebisis, I get it now about being limited to indoor shooting. It is the same where I live. There's a big, wide open power line right of way not a ten minute walk from my house. I called the police to ask if I might shoot there, it being perfectly safe with good backstops. The officer I spoke with said it's like this. Someone will probably call to report a man with a gun, so we will have to send a car out and you would, in all likelihood, have your air rifle confiscated. (Bear in mind I'm talking about conventional looking air rifles, not firearm lookalikes.) I can shoot in my backyard with a "suitable backstop" but, again, the neighbors would probably freak out. A visit from S.W.A.T. is no fun, believe me. LOL, another thing we have in common is I no longer have depth perception due to an eye operation. Thankfully, it is my off eye. My surgeon explained that for anything over a few feet, depth perception is really learned distances, so I'm fine from that point on. Yours, on the other hand, must be tough since you said it is congenital. Have fun with your big dogs. I've been buying a couple of those lately, even though I only kill paper in the basement. It's good to know that the occasional light pellet won't beat them up. My shoulder, maybe, but not the gun.

[A moron]

I seen your title and rembered this vid @ 3".55

He fired it and smoked like a black powder so to say...  Dont know if noise comparis or not or how close to your experience it is..