Can anyone here make me a pellet swag die for me????

[Pellgunfun]

If I sent you a slug design could anyone make me a die to press my own slugs??

I'd like to be able to use the CPHP, or domes in 14.3 grain.  I'd like to be able to put them in the die and press a perfect slug what would be the same weight (14.3gr) as the pellet.  Also I could get the lead wire and cut the pieces to 14.3gr, and press them that way.    I can get 500 CPHP pellets for like 6 bucks a tin near me, and I'd love to be able to swish them into slugs while keeping the weight the same.  I've seen this done in videos with very good effect and range, but I don't have a lathe so I can't make it myself.

There was a guy on Youtube that asked me to send him my design and he'd make me one, but it's been months now and he won't respond.  So I've given up waiting on him. 

I have already created the slug design in CB Design, but I need someone to make the Die to press the pellets into slugs.

Here is a link to a video of what I'm referring to. 


P

[subscriber]

What about getting one of the  Huben die sets?  I believe you can adjust the weight, although I don't know if you can make slugs as light as 14 grains.

Just because one can make hollow base slugs does not mean they will be "accurate".  The way slugs and pellets are stabilized is not the same.  Anyway, there is a lot of "room" between "lands nose first", and shooting tight groups.

Anyone making dies for you is likely to charge more than the one from Huben - below:

[subscriber]

https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/huben-bullet-swagging-kit/

Here is another video showing the Huben swagging die - link takes you to correct time stamp:

[subscriber]

Get the real thing:  http://www.corbins.com/pellets.htm

Or Duy might be willing to make you dies:

Oh yeah,  where did you get the swagger?

Coolhand, i made my own swaging dies. you can buy swaging dies from Huben but its as expensive as Corbin swaging dies. once you have your Huben, i can send you some of my pellets to try out, you can buy my dies at 1/2 of what they charge. the NOE mold i got were undersized at .250 head and base of .252. i would get the boattail 51 grains at .253 head and .255 base if i were you.
   where did you place an order for the huben? i know AoA has them in stock, why wait? yes the Huben .25 can push 34 grains at 1000fps, i am shooting 56 grains at 830fps to conserve air and its as much powerful as above 80FPE. the 34grains are not stablized since its got a shorter pellet body, grouping 5 inches at 20 yards because new Hubens got faster twist rate. i might have to hollow the base and extend its body length. there is a lot you can do with swaging its slow but precise and looks better than cast.
 
 Airgunner i would love to see a group post, it seems MP mold doesnt have .25 molds yet. still waiting on a group buy. so your huben  is 22?

[subscriber]

[rsterne]

IMO a 14.3 gr. slug would not be as good a performer as a pellet of the same weight and caliber.... I don't think you could get a good shape and enough bearing length in that weight....

bob

[subscriber]

A "decent shape" slug in .22 at 14.3 grains would need to have a huge hollow cavity, with very thin walls.  It takes a lot of swagging pressure to get lead to flow fully along thin walls.  So it may be very difficult to form. 

See images below for a .218 caliber 14.3 grain hollow point slug.  Overall length is 8 mm with a 4 mm bearing length.  Note the 0.7 mm wall thickness to achieve 14.3 grains:

[Pellgunfun]

IMO a 14.3 gr. slug would not be as good a performer as a pellet of the same weight and caliber.... I don't think you could get a good shape and enough bearing length in that weight....

bob

Hello,

I'd never be foolish enough to argue or disagree with you Bob.  You're light years beyond me on this stuff for sure. 

If you go watch the other videos from the maker of the video I posted you'll see that he's getting great ranges with those ultra lightweight slugs.  At 150+ yards it should perform better than the CPHP in my guns at the same weight and power settings.  Will it perform like a heavier slug with more bearing surface, no it won't for sure.  However, I've got lots of tins of CPHP pellets and in my gun they not so accurate as slugs once I go past 70 yards or so.  Besides with the lighter slugs I can get more shots and still get great velocities without cranking the power of the rifle way up.

Here is an image of a design I was playing around with.

[subscriber]

14.3 grain hollow base slug with slightly thicker walls and a slightly longer nose.  Diameter still at .218".

Hollow base should be easier to make than closed hollow point.  A lot easier.  But, thin walls are still going to be a problem for material flow.

Perhaps a rather blunt "H-section slug"....

[subscriber]

Bearing surface of your spitzer slug is rather short.  We can argue what the minimum is to not cock over in the bore; but the forward mass bias does not help.  In my opinion, the CG should fall on or behind the front driving band (or fornt endge of the driving band).

[Pellgunfun]

The problem I could see with the Hollow base being so deep is the probe may not be able to push the slug all the way in.  It has to push the base past the air entrance hole right? 

P

[subscriber]

H-Section slug:

[subscriber]

It has to push the base past the air entrance hole right? 

Yes.

[subscriber]

Based on the CG (green arrow/dot) in the image below, there is,opportunity to lengthen the nose ogive.  At least until the CG is still behind the edge of the full diameter section.

[Pellgunfun]

I'm starting to see that CB Design has some serious limitations.

For starters it doesn't allow me to have a boat tail, and a dish base at the same time.  It's an either or deal.  Also I can't have a hollow nose or base that is a true cavity.  It only allows a straight walled hollow point.  So you couldn't even duplicate the hollow cavity of the FX slugs if you wanted to.  Or maybe I'm just a moron and uninstall the program before I hurt my little brain. 

P

[subscriber]

If you use multi-stage dies, you can have an almost enclosed hollow point like the NSA or FX slugs. 

If you want one forming operation, then the cavities have to be wider at the entrance than at the far end, or the forming punch will be trapped in the first slug you swage.

To enable easy punch extraction, there must be sufficient taper on the punch.  That taper can be straight, or a compound curve.  As long as there is never an undercut, or long parallel section.

What about forming slugs from lead sheet by means of a drawing operation?  Even if the nearly closed nose of the slug ends up looking like a blank cartridge neck, who cares, providing the operation is repeatable.

[Pellgunfun]

Yeah I've been looking at multi-stage dies.  I think Corbin has a kit for that also.  There stuff only does heavy slugs I think.  Plus the Corbin website is so frustrating to navigate it's not even funny.  I guess I'll have to get a lathe somehow and eventually learn how to use it. 

I sent the guy in the video an early design and he was supposed to make the die for me to test out, but then he must have gotten abducted by aliens or something because he never responded to any of my emails or messages on Youtube.  He also sells his slugs on Ebay, but I've got so many tins of CPHP, I wanted to squish my own.
The hollow base on his slugs are something like .205 or more deep, and I wanted to keep mine no deeper than .130 so the slug would pass the air inlet hole in the breech properly.  So basically his slugs have a very small hollow point but the super deep hollow base.  In the videos they seemed to shoot well enough.  He was getting consistent hit at 272 yards with them from his Taipan Veteran rifle.  So I figured, "what the *(&^" I'd give it a shot. 

One thing's for sure though.  I need something different for designing slugs, cause the CB Design software isn't cutting it. 

P

[subscriber]

One thing I forgot to emphasize is that the position of the center of gravity, relative to center of form is important.  If they fall right on each other, there will be no "steering moment" to correct yaw, and the projectile will not follow the tangent of the trajectory.  In other words, it will stay in the attitude it left the muzzle, due to gyro stability.  That will be somewhat nose up for longer range shots.

If the above is greek to you; it means that a slug design won't shoot well simply because it is "well made", and consistent from one to the next.   I suggest you contact Nick at NSA.  He might surprise you with a quick lesson into designing slugs that "work".

[Pellgunfun]

Nope it wasn't greek to me at all.  I know what you mean. 

Here is another one I was playing around with.  In this one there is more separation of CP and CG, but CG is still slightly ahead of the driving band. CG from base is the red circle line.

It has a super deep base with the overall slug length at .347.  I was trying to avoid having a super deep hollow base, but I suppose there's no getting around it.  Also with this layout I'm concerned about the space between the hollow base and the hollow point becoming to thin, and deforming of just blowing through when fired.

The weight is 15.3 gr so it needs to lose 1 more grain.  As you can tell from the image the corners of the hollow base and hollow point are round radiuses.  If CB Design would allow me to square the corners more I'm sure I could lose the remaining grain there.  But CB Design isn't having any of that foolishness. 

[subscriber]

I took your latest design and use straight tapers and smaller core pin radii to take weight out of your design. 

I also added an 0.005" radius to the edge of the nose cavity, because making such a sharp edge will take more than 50k PSI swage pressure; and the resultant slug will be easily dinged.  I would like to make the radius at least 0.01", but it is not my design...

Rather than the skirt wall thickness being only 0.01", I bumped it up to 0.015", as getting the die space to fill is going to be a nightmare.  I would suggest increasing this to 0.02"  or  making the wall taper steeper, so lead won't have to flow so far through such a narrow space.

I think that keeping the general dimensions, except for shortening the nose such that the nominal nose flat increases from 0.1" to 0.125" will make a high difference.  It will enable a larger diameter nose cavity. That will take a bunch of weight out.  As shown below, the weight would be 14.95 grains from pure lead.