Getting to know a 54

[dtdtdtdt]

On my .177 54, the part number 11 as Hector noted was the culprit when I first got theused gun.  The action was squeezed down so tight that it was binding on the wood.  I also found that the washers had been installed wrong.  from the wood Metal - Metal - rubber - That's what allowed the action to be squeezed down so tight.  Correct installation and lower torque (I use 20in/lb) helped a lot.  That may be what has given you the felt recoil too.  I also tried an additional washer as you did here.  After getting it installed correctly, I didn't need it but it won't hurt!!

On mine, part 11 is plastic with the wings being metal. 

Cheers!

[mcoulter]

Sorry for the vague post and question.  The part I was asking about is #87.  This guy:



And this is the additional washer I was referring to:



It seems like without the washer, the stock is being pulled unevenly to the action causing binding.  The washer allows (presumably) a more even tightening and lets me get nearer to the 25 inch pounds of torque that's been recommended.  The sled action still seems to get tight (harder to move) much lower than that.  I'm guessing 15 inch pounds is where the action seems to have its best and smoothest movement. 

I did remove all the grease from the sleds:





But most importantly I noticed these wear marks on the metal guard that surrounds the trigger assembly.  A careful bending of these arms outward and centering of the trigger pins seems to have relieved the points of contact here:



We'll see if this has any impact on the accuracy of the rifle...

Thanks!

[Fate]

Hector, thank you for that parts diagram. I've looking for exactly that but all I found was the exploded diagram without individual parts descriptions... in English.

I needed it for my D48, so I just edited the URL and there it was! Finally.

PS
One of the pins that hold the action in, the rear one, keeps backing out after a lot of shooting, and hits the stock. I just tap it back in which works for a while. Should I be more firm in seating it... or is there another remedy?

[Fate]

Matt, concerning the centering of the trigger pins...

Despite repeated centering of those pins they kept moving off-center and stopping only because they hit the stock. After doing the various trigger mods I put retaining rings on them and a dab of VC-3 to make me feel better. They haven't moved since. For those trigger mods, most came from Hector's blogs with a few tips here on the forum. The one picture I went by for the retaining rings is also in Hector's blogs, here: https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/archives/01-2016 .

Incidentally, one of my trigger mods came from my own background... I modified the rear trigger spring by heating the bottom two coils with a micro torch and semi collapsed them. It's a big improvement for me... and the, now, progressive action of the spring allows a wide tension range from low to too much... instead of starting with too much lol.

For the retaining rings, nothing I had fit properly so I ordered a kit from Amazon that did the job... although I had to "size" some for the fit I wanted.

[dtdtdtdt]

The cleanup of the gunk looks GREAT!!! It should help!

What is the function of the black cup you show?  It certainly is not an original piece.  Is it part of the bipod that someone else had installed??

The little silver-colored washer you have in the wooden hole looks too small and perhaps too thin.  Mine have a black washer that fits the hole nearly perfectly and is about 1/16" thick.  While I may be over analyzing, it seems to my eye that the wood is depressed near the hole.  Probably because of the shape of that cup not fitting the hole properly.   The bottom of the hole is supposed to be flat.  It is possible that someone drilled it out a bit or the nose of the cup did the damage when tightened too much. 

There are those who recommend inletting a cup into the stock to improve its holding power and to protect the wood.  NCED does a lot of this.  It is sort of like pillar bedding used in tactical rifles.  I doubt you need that though since the recommended torques are so low. 

It is possible that you can't get the proper torque because the screw is bottoming out on the bronze fitting before it fully tightens.  A quickie test of this theory would be to  put another washer or two in the hole and test if it lets you get to the proper torque.  As has been said several times - do not exceed 30in/lb. 20inlb is what my toys like. 

My suggestion would be to check the depth of the hole through the stock and the bronze fitting to see if the screw is too long.  If it is, ACE Hardware generally has a fair selection of metric bolts and washers.  If you determine that the problem can be solved with a shorter screw and a thicker washer, GREAT! 

As you see ANY binding is too much!!!

[dtdtdtdt]

Did some more digging around!

This is from Eddie Colwell's unofficial Diana 54 site.  He has a lot of good information here. This is what he said about a bipod on the 54.  The Kevin he refers to was the owner of straight shooters.com who has since retired.  His partner Craig is now running it.


The Bipod                             

I was warned by Kevin from SS, the bipod is not suited for the M54. They are right. If you try to attach the bipod to the forearm screw, you will jam the recoil absorption rail for sure.

My solution:                 
Make a small "V" out of a piece of 2" conduit, add some pieces of rubber sheet, rubber hose, a screw and a nut, and you will have an excellent and very stable platform for LR hunting and shooting. Just let the forearm of your gun rest on top of the bipod, at the sweet spot you have determined for regular hold. This way you can also stabilize your gun against a wall or other inclined surface, very practical!

The washer you show looks like the attaching cup that is used in the bipod. 

This may be the source of all your recoil issues.

I found pictures of the bipod and other similar ones by googling Diana bipods.  In one of the pictures you can see what looks like your cup.

BY THE WAY! THE BOLT I SAW IN PICTURES OF THE BIPOD LOOKS LONGER THAN THE ORIGINAL BOLT WITHOUT THE BIPOD.  I'LL BET YOU HAVE THE LONGER BOLT!!!!

[mcoulter]

I feel like dummy.  I googled some pics of 54s and NONE of them have anything extending below the stock the way mine does.  I can't believe I did not notice that before!   I'll see if I can find a shorter bolt that would work with and better washer.  Can someone post a pic of what your front screw and washer looks like?

On a different note I shot some quick targets during lunchtime;  while the changes alone (cleaned sleds) didn't seem to make much difference, I found a change in shooting technique on the last few groups had a positive effect.  I have been struggling with the height of the ZR mount and received some sage advice regarding the simple solution of adding a cheek riser on the comb.  While I don't have one (yet...) , I modified how I'm placing my my face on the stock.  I found that by resting my jaw on the stock (to get a good view through the scope) and placing downward pressure on the stock, I was able to see some better groups within my group start to form.

Here's a fairly typical target shot at 37 yards with jsbs (15.9 and 18s are pretty similar with how they "group").   

MEH...




Here the bottom two groups showed some promise (3 and 4 shots in a nice tight group at 37 yards).  The middle group still fell apart a bit, but I hope some more shooting trying  focus on better pressure on the stock will help:




Thanks!

[HectorMedina]

Sorry for the vague post and question.  The part I was asking about is #87.  This guy:



And this is the additional washer I was referring to:



It seems like without the washer, the stock is being pulled unevenly to the action causing binding.  The washer allows (presumably) a more even tightening and lets me get nearer to the 25 inch pounds of torque that's been recommended.  The sled action still seems to get tight (harder to move) much lower than that.  I'm guessing 15 inch pounds is where the action seems to have its best and smoothest movement. 

I did remove all the grease from the sleds:





But most importantly I noticed these wear marks on the metal guard that surrounds the trigger assembly.  A careful bending of these arms outward and centering of the trigger pins seems to have relieved the points of contact here:



We'll see if this has any impact on the accuracy of the rifle...

Thanks!

Sorry Matt, but I don't get ANY of your pictures. Just "Wrong sense" road signs.

Part in position 87 is NOT plastic. It is a thick metal washer with a recess made for a DIANA specific screw.

All the rest is completely beyond me, as I cannot see your pictures.

In any case, if you substitute the whole washers assembly with the self-leveling washers we talked about, there is one little trick to using them:
When the screws are almost snug, lift the gun and give it a slight shake. Then put the gun back down and tighten them. You can go as high as you want and the sleds will STILL be in line.
If you skip the shake, then even with the washers the action can bind by uneven seating.

Sorry!



HM

[HectorMedina]

Hector, thank you for that parts diagram. I've looking for exactly that but all I found was the exploded diagram without individual parts descriptions... in English.

I needed it for my D48, so I just edited the URL and there it was! Finally.

PS
One of the pins that hold the action in, the rear one, keeps backing out after a lot of shooting, and hits the stock. I just tap it back in which works for a while. Should I be more firm in seating it... or is there another remedy?

Fate.- I have already written here about DIANA's commitment to inform and "educate" the shooters. And we stand by our words, if you go here:

https://www.diana-airguns.de/en/service/spare-parts-lists

You will find as much information as we can put out there for a LOT of guns. From the old models to the new ones. Notably missing are the chinese origin guns, for a reason. But apart from that, everything that is truly DIANA, is there for the last 50 years.

Have fun looking at the 66, 75, and other diagrams that belong to the past!

;-)





HM

[HectorMedina]

I feel like dummy.  I googled some pics of 54s and NONE of them have anything extending below the stock the way mine does.  I can't believe I did not notice that before!   I'll see if I can find a shorter bolt that would work with and better washer.  Can someone post a pic of what your front screw and washer looks like?

It could also be that 54's NEED a tight hold.
The stock/sled is performing the artillery hold for you, so the stock needs to be as stationary as possible, so that the sled adjustment takes over. Your "firm jaw" contact point is providing just that, but in a non-consistent way.

BTW, your scope is on the way, I'll send a cheekpiece along with it and you can test it.

This is not one of my guns, it is Mitch's, but it is (so far) an OEM gun (under running in). So this is how YOUR gun should look like in the front:



At the rear:



Anything different, is NOT OEM.

HTH







HM

[Fate]

Hector, thank you for that parts diagram. I've looking for exactly that but all I found was the exploded diagram without individual parts descriptions... in English.

I needed it for my D48, so I just edited the URL and there it was! Finally.

PS
One of the pins that hold the action in, the rear one, keeps backing out after a lot of shooting, and hits the stock. I just tap it back in which works for a while. Should I be more firm in seating it... or is there another remedy?

Fate.- I have already written here about DIANA's commitment to inform and "educate" the shooters. And we stand by our words, if you go here:

https://www.diana-airguns.de/en/service/spare-parts-lists

You will find as much information as we can put out there for a LOT of guns. From the old models to the new ones. Notably missing are the chinese origin guns, for a reason. But apart from that, everything that is truly DIANA, is there for the last 50 years.

Have fun looking at the 66, 75, and other diagrams that belong to the past!

;-)





HM

Hector, I've gone to that website before when you mentioned it... but I still don't speak German and I see no language button to change it???

[dtdtdtdt]

I changed my stock screws to Allen-headed Metric screws of the same length to make the torquing more precise.  The original were Phillips head screws. 

Another observation from your first set of pictures -just noticed- With the black cup in its position in the hole, it doesn't lay flat on the stock and would not return to the same position each time.  The stock is curved and the cup bottom isn't.

I also noted that someone installed a sling swivel just ahead of the stock screw on Matt's gun.  It appeared to be set in epoxy or similar.  Might take a peek to see if he drilled all the way through and added more to the problem.

Hector: as you may recall, you gave me a set of the self-adjusting washers.  I didn't use them because they set the action too high and made the trigger difficult.  I also didn't want to overdrill the wood in the stock and make it any weaker than it already is. 

Matt:  Hector sold me a pair of his super-duper cheek pieces that raise my eye line over half an inch.  It is the only such cheek piece I have ever seen that is the right size to fit over a Monte-Carlo type stock.  They make my eye align perfectly with the center of the scope axis.  Haven't shot with them much but did have it on when I shot 9 chipmunks in one sitting out my kitchen window.  I have a real infestation!!!  That puts my grand-total just over 400 in the past 5 years!!

As for tightness of hold, I don't hold them any different than my powder arms and ignore the artillery hold nonsense.  As Hector noted, the action does it for you.  My first serious air rifle is the FWB300 that convinced me. Note my list below!!! I did have a break barrel Walther Force 1000 that I could never get to shoot anywhere well.  I also have two friends who bought Gamo break-barrels that they couldn't shoot well either.  On the other hand, my grandson's break barrel (ruger branded 34 knockoff) isn't hold sensitive at all. 

Hopefully you are zeroing in on the problem and can get even better results.  Although at 50 yds or so, you are doing great in outdoor shooting (wind you know!!)

[Fate]

Hector, thank you for that parts diagram. I've looking for exactly that but all I found was the exploded diagram without individual parts descriptions... in English.

I needed it for my D48, so I just edited the URL and there it was! Finally.

PS
One of the pins that hold the action in, the rear one, keeps backing out after a lot of shooting, and hits the stock. I just tap it back in which works for a while. Should I be more firm in seating it... or is there another remedy?

Fate.- I have already written here about DIANA's commitment to inform and "educate" the shooters. And we stand by our words, if you go here:

https://www.diana-airguns.de/en/service/spare-parts-lists

You will find as much information as we can put out there for a LOT of guns. From the old models to the new ones. Notably missing are the chinese origin guns, for a reason. But apart from that, everything that is truly DIANA, is there for the last 50 years.

Have fun looking at the 66, 75, and other diagrams that belong to the past!

;-)





HM

Hector, I've gone to that website before when you mentioned it... but I still don't speak German and I see no language button to change it???

OK, I found the English version. Finally.

Thanks for not responding and making me feel dumber than I do right now. It's only taken me a month or two....

[HectorMedina]

I changed my stock screws to Allen-headed Metric screws of the same length to make the torquing more precise.  The original were Phillips head screws. 

Another observation from your first set of pictures -just noticed- With the black cup in its position in the hole, it doesn't lay flat on the stock and would not return to the same position each time.  The stock is curved and the cup bottom isn't.

I also noted that someone installed a sling swivel just ahead of the stock screw on Matt's gun.  It appeared to be set in epoxy or similar.  Might take a peek to see if he drilled all the way through and added more to the problem.

Hector: as you may recall, you gave me a set of the self-adjusting washers.  I didn't use them because they set the action too high and made the trigger difficult.  I also didn't want to overdrill the wood in the stock and make it any weaker than it already is. 

Matt:  Hector sold me a pair of his super-duper cheek pieces that raise my eye line over half an inch.  It is the only such cheek piece I have ever seen that is the right size to fit over a Monte-Carlo type stock.  They make my eye align perfectly with the center of the scope axis.  Haven't shot with them much but did have it on when I shot 9 chipmunks in one sitting out my kitchen window.  I have a real infestation!!!  That puts my grand-total just over 400 in the past 5 years!!

As for tightness of hold, I don't hold them any different than my powder arms and ignore the artillery hold nonsense.  As Hector noted, the action does it for you.  My first serious air rifle is the FWB300 that convinced me. Note my list below!!! I did have a break barrel Walther Force 1000 that I could never get to shoot anywhere well.  I also have two friends who bought Gamo break-barrels that they couldn't shoot well either.  On the other hand, my grandson's break barrel (ruger branded 34 knockoff) isn't hold sensitive at all. 

Hopefully you are zeroing in on the problem and can get even better results.  Although at 50 yds or so, you are doing great in outdoor shooting (wind you know!!)

David;

I recess the self-levelling washers in wood stocks. In my Match stock the action sits higher but the whole thing is much more massive. Extra room allows me ease of mind under the rain, it will get in, but it does have room to get out.
Stock is still thick enough to allow a good strength even with the washers recessed about 1/2 of the thickness of the concave one because the wood is acting under compression of a VERY LARGE area. Unlike the side screws that are really small areas. That  is when wood can fail.

I'm glad you're finding the cheekpieces useful. AND they do add character to the guns. LOL!

Keep well and shoot more chipmunks!







HM

[HectorMedina]

OK, I found the English version. Finally.

Good!

And even better that you're keeping a sense of humour about all this.

;-)





HM

[Mossonarock]

In any case, if you substitute the whole washers assembly with the self-leveling washers we talked about, there is one little trick to using them:
When the screws are almost snug, lift the gun and give it a slight shake. Then put the gun back down and tighten them. You can go as high as you want and the sleds will STILL be in line.
If you skip the shake, then even with the washers the action can bind by uneven seating.

I appreciate that tip! I'm going to try it on my D56. I'm guessing that part of the purpose of the shake is to give the sleds a chance to align themselves with the rails since tightening the screws can "rotate" the sleds a bit so that they aren't in-line with the rails and may rub weird against the rails.

[mcoulter]

Sorry about the missing pictures in my earlier post.  I can't go back and edit that post, so here they are again.  Front stock fastener cap and the washer I have placed under it to help prevent the binding:



And this is how it sits when together 



And the wear marks on the side of the guard that sits around the trigger assembly:



And the sleds after cleaning them up (note, I did add the oring at the rear of the front sled based on one of the "guides" I found):

[mcoulter]

I had a PERFECTLY windless morning today to test the *new-to-me* high-pressure jaw hold on the d54.  This, in combination with a action that is less bound-up (even at a measured 25 in pounds of torque at the front) gave me two of the best 37 yard groups that I have shot (top two bullseyes).  Note: the stickers I am using are exactly 1/2 inch and these were the end of a tin of JSB 18s.  The bottom right group opened WAY up and shifted even more to the right.  The bottom-right and center were back to being nothing special.




I then moved the target out to 53 yards and shot 5 more groups of 5-shots.  My first group was the "sighter" target on the right.  And there is the best group I have shot at this distance.   The top left was my next group, then top-right, bottom-left and then bottom-right.  I'm getting the clear impression that it takes my scope a bunch (like 15) shots to settle in after making adjustments.  Hmmm.....

[dtdtdtdt]

Matt:

Note the compression marks from the black cup on the silver washer.  Clearly it had really been tight! 

Suggest putting a couple of those washers together in the hole if you can't find any bigger ones in the short term.  The one that is there is deformed.

The groups are great!!! It could also be the action settling in.  Also you might check the scope ring torques. 

They should be 18-20inlb and no higher than 25.  Might also check the clamping bolts 35inlb is good.  NOT OVER 40INLB IN ALUMINUM.  I DID some destructive testing with old ring parts and found that just above 40inlb the threads will strip out of the rings with the 6x32 screws normally used. 

Is your torque wrench newish or oldish? I have two of the FAT wrenches one about 10yr old and the other just out of the box.  It is quite a bit stiffer than the old.  My primary standard is a certified one from Matco Tool (my son is a vp there!)

is the scope newish and has it lived on a high energy springer without the ZR?  It might be sick?

[mcoulter]

Hi Dave,

Actually the washer is a pretty recent addition to try to free up the movement of the sled.  I can say confidently that it has not been tighter than 25  inch pounds as measured by my highly accurate harbor freight torque wrench   

Yes, I will certainly be replacing the black plastic cup with something recessed.  Could I trouble you or an other 54 owner to give me the size and length of the hex screw that you use here (and in the rear action fastener too)? 

The scope is a 8-32 AEON which has not been on a springer before.  I has had focus issues with it in the past, but is presently good and clear (at 16x anyway).  I put this scope on the 54 both as a  test of the ZR mount  (knowing the AEON is NOT springer rated)  and honestly not really caring if it gets destroyed in the process.  I may try swapping a SWFA SS 16X back on this gun again now that I'm beginning to see reasonable accuracy from it.

I'm not sure that I trust my HF torque wrench enough to try it on my rings.  I feel pretty confident that my careful scope tightening process is holding fast.  There's not any external looseness to how the scope is being held in place on the gun.  However, internally in the scope may have some problems as the wider groups after adjustments indicate.  My next thought is to shoot another set of five 5-shot groups without touching the turrets and we'll see how it does.  After that will be the SWFA swap.

Thanks for the kind words regarding the groups.  We're getting there!  Thanks to everyone for your help, advice, and insight throughout this testing!