Getting to know a 54

[Mossonarock]

DT, That first pic in mcoulter's post above shows the metal bracket with the cocking fin that I'm talking about. The fin can interfere with the gun's action sliding. Also, I made a post here about what I did.

Now, the metal brackets that hold the rails I think are too thin to put a set screw in. It would have to be a very narrow set screw. That bracket is only a few mm's thick. I have considered putting some JB weld in there or maybe at least some vibra-tite. I tried jamming in very thin pieces of metal but I couldn't find anything thin enough and strong enough to jam in there. I tried razors but the metal is too brittle.

[mcoulter]

I picked up the 0.50 allen key yesterday, mounted the peep sight and did a quick sight.  25 yards - I did the center bullseye first and then worked my way around the outside targets ending with the bottom right.  I then moved the squirrel target out to 33 yards only to realize that is my limit of seeing accurately.  I really coult not make out the bright red aim point.  All "group's" are 5 shots.

[dwalk]

its not on my 54 at the moment...but this is how I reconfigured my ZR mount and it lives on my HW90 at the moment

geeeeeeeez...can't do pix now

[dtdtdtdt]

Matt: It looks to me that you need to start with a serious de-gunking of the internals.  You shouldn't have ANY visible grease globs or streaks in the action area.  Also, I hope you bought more than one .050 Allen wrench.  They disappear into the ether very easily and also are very tender.  A friend found a source for them at a machine shop supply so we bought a BUNCH of that size and the next one up.  I lose them regularly.

if mine, I would take it apart and put all the parts in my ultrasonic bath with my friend John's Magic Elixir that I use almost exclusively.  Years ago, I made a 3 gallon batch and am still using it.  (1 gallon Mineral Spirits, 1 gallon kerosene, a pint bottle of Rislone, and a pint bottle of Marvel Mystery Oil.). You can figure out the proportions for the quantity you might like and the ratios are not too critical.  I just buy the bottles that are about what I mentioned.  I keep a gallon in a can to use in the ultrasonic and filter it through a coffee filter after use.  I augment the Rislone and Mystery Oil when the spirit moves me - NOTHING MAGIC. The Rislone removes carbon gunk nicely and the fluid is completely black in the several years I have used that batch.  the mystery oil is a very good clinging lubricant. Once cleaned with this it is already lubricated and should need nothing else.  John used it on motorcycle chains and almost all his shop equipment.  I also keep a spray bottle on my workbench and use it on virtually everything that needs cleaned or drilled or lubricated.  I have even used it on sharpening stones!! I also clean extraordinarily dirty powder firearms with it.  Amazing what gunk comes out of them! 

On air rifles, I am much more careful with it to avoid getting into the piston area and in the chamber to minimum contamination in the bore area.  Qtips and cleaning patches do the job mostly. 

Where I think grease is required, I use the CLP that is readily available in gun shops or shows or preferably Dow Corning silicone grease from my life as a chemist.  It is less easy to find.  Hector also recommends a lubricant called LIQUIDBEARINGS from www.liquidbearings.com.  Since he recommended with my Hector Special I use is in preference to my usual stuff on the theory that one should not fight success. 

Moss:  my suggested area of installation of the set screw with the teflon button is NOT in the brackets but in the Brass bushings that the rods pass through.  Movement of the rods back and forth in that bushing is what I would be concerned about.  The metal brackets shouldn't be an issue. As I mentioned earlier, I don't seem to have any extra recoil going on so don't see the need to make the change you did.  I will watch for it though!!!

Matt: I am jealous that you can see that well!!!  I am old and literally blind in my left eye with untreatable cataracts in my right one.  Interestingly, I can find a clear spot in my vision with most good scopes so use them exclusively.

[mcoulter]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your suggestions!  I bought the .05 key as part of a combo set which are all together so I'll be (somewhat!) less likely to lose it this way!  That's a pretty interesting concoction of cleaners you use.  I could probably use a proper parts washer, but probably more out of laziness than anything else, I find myself grabbing a can of brake or carb cleaner to get stuff like this cleaned up...  And thanks for the liquid bearings suggestion that looks like a good product for this use :-)

The weather on Saturday was spectacular and I got some good shooting / testing in with the peep.   I'm really enjoying it and it looks pretty good on the rifle  ;-)




 





I wanted to do some shooting at various distances and found that a 30-ish yard zero worked pretty well.  I was able to use 2-inch splatter stickers at that distance pretty well.  I found the gun to be dead on at 13 yards, maybe an inch high at 20 yards, good at 30 and then it took 50 clicks to zero again at 50 yards. 

So this is what worked out to be my "normal" elevation for 30 yards:



And this at 50 yards:



Here are a few more sample targets.  These seem to be pretty typical groupings for 30 yards off a rest with the peep.  I found the group on the right to be particularly satisfying  :-)




And here are my 50 yard tests.  You can see the drop on the left from my 30 yard zero, 30-clicks of elevation change (left) and then 50 clicks of elevation change (right):



I then returned the target to 30-yards.  The top-left 3 shots are keeping my 50 yard adjustment and then adjusting back to my 30-yard zero by undoing the 50-clicks of elevation change.   On the right-side I took at guess at what my near zero is and nailed it.  Those are 2 shots (edit) at 13 yards and then one at 20 yards to see how high it might be:




Lastly, I did some chrony testing.  I recorded the muzzle velocity and velocity at 30 yards with jsb 18s (chairgun bc = .0357)




All-in-all a very fun Saturday morning!

[mcoulter]

I just noticed one of my photos was missing from the above post and I cannot edit it now. 

And here are my 50 yard tests.  You can see the drop on the left from my 30 yard zero, 30-clicks of elevation change (left) and then 50 clicks of elevation change (right):

[dtdtdtdt]

Sounds like a great time, Matt.  We had a nice day here yesterday too.  I should have set up to shoot a bit but other things intervened.

If you want to use the peeps regularly for bullseye-type targets, I suggest replacing the post with a "aperture" front sight.  That way, you can make the rear peep, the ring front, and the bullseye concentric circles and will tighten your groups substantially.  Did you get a set of inserts with your front sight?  if not, a worthwhile investment.  When I competed in small bore prone half a century ago, I was able to shoot similar sized groups with the apertures as I did with the scope.  Smallbore prone competition included 50yd, 50m, 100yd and a combined match of half 50yd and half 100yd.  One whole set of 400 point matches with iron sights and the second day was scope.  If I did my job, the scores were virtually identical for both days.  (not good enough to go to the Nationals but good enough to win a few matches at the local level.). I couldn't afford the really good rifle and ammunition to compete at high levels. 

have fun

[mcoulter]

Sounds like a great time, Matt.  We had a nice day here yesterday too.  I should have set up to shoot a bit but other things intervened.

If you want to use the peeps regularly for bullseye-type targets, I suggest replacing the post with a "aperture" front sight.  That way, you can make the rear peep, the ring front, and the bullseye concentric circles and will tighten your groups substantially.  Did you get a set of inserts with your front sight?  if not, a worthwhile investment.  When I competed in small bore prone half a century ago, I was able to shoot similar sized groups with the apertures as I did with the scope.  Smallbore prone competition included 50yd, 50m, 100yd and a combined match of half 50yd and half 100yd.  One whole set of 400 point matches with iron sights and the second day was scope.  If I did my job, the scores were virtually identical for both days.  (not good enough to go to the Nationals but good enough to win a few matches at the local level.). I couldn't afford the really good rifle and ammunition to compete at high levels. 

have fun

Hi Dave,

I neglected to say in the last post that I'm sorry to hear about your vision.  However, I'm glad to hear that you're able to find that clear spot in your vision  :-)  Thanks for your suggestion on the aperture front sight.  No, I don't have one but I'll see if I can locate one for sale that fits.  Today's weather was/is horrible, but I still got out and did a bit more shooting. 

I put out a target at 25 yards with 1/2 inch colored stickers.  This was a fun challenge training my eye to see them.  It was almost like I had to locate them my my right eye (non-shooting eye) and then "take over" with my left eye.  The harder I tried to "see" the dot, the  harder it became to see...  It really was a unique visual challenge.  Another takeaway was remembering to check that I had snugged down the sights     I shot starting from the bottom left and found myself walking closer to the target after each 3 shots to see where the heck they were hitting!  The 2nd target confirmed that I'm still hitting a bit high at 25 yards.  I dropped it 15 clicks and finished the targets:



Without counting clicks (just going by line markings) I tried to copy yesterday's elevation adjustment for 50 yards.  I really wanted to see how consistent the sight is after clicking this way and that way...  Elevation ended up being dead on from my earlier tests:




This was all good fun, but the biggest smile came next  :-)  I have a small metal target and a fresh supply of beer cans that people throw into my yard...  (grrrrr)  I set up each of these at my longest distance of 65 yards.  Both the beer can and target stood out well against my backstop.  Seeing most of my target shots were to the lft of center, I changed my windage a bit then took one shot guessing at the hold over and missed.  The sound was clearly the pellet hitting the wood backstop - I think my holdover was too much.  I lowered it just a bit (so my front post allowed a teeny bit of the top of the target to show) and nailed the can on the second shot!  I hit the ram with my very next shot.  I walked down to check these out, reset them and snapped a couple of pics.  I left the can on it's side wanting to see if  I could hit the can through the bottom.   Two shots and two hits.  I can't say how just how satisfying a good day of shooting is!   

Here's what the backstop looks like and what it looks like looking back towards my shed:

[dtdtdtdt]

You should be able to find a set of inserts to fit the sight you have.  Champion shooters supply and Brownell sell such.  Just checked!!! Google Diana aperture sight inserts.  A huge number of options appear!!!  The gotcha with the inserts is that some have different diameters and don't fit.  Be sure to get the matching ones for your front sight. 

If your front sight is a Diana you might be able find the correct inserts.  I have seen that sight before but don't know what exactly it is.  I am sure that someone on the board will know.

If you are hitting that well at 60yds you are doing quite well!!!

Regarding cleaning the grease off.  Some of the carburetor cleaners are too aggressive and may damage the wood finish or even the rubber washers.  Be a bit cautious on that.


Cheers.

[HectorMedina]

Matt;

I am glad that you have returned to the spring-piston world.

The muzzle piece you have is the "flat base" model that takes all DIANA "Korn-Tunnel"s , there are over 60 types of inserts for that front sight, from apertures at every 0.1 mm from 2.5 to 4.0, to pyramids, posts, and barleycorn grains. You can also get custom made inserts, those are expensive, but if you see clearly, they are blast.

Your gun is doing good, but I am afraid it was modified without truly understanding how the sled system works.

In your pictures, you also show things that are not quite right:







Replace those "smushy" rubber washers with original ones (call UMAREX, or PYRAMYD AIR), and then tighten the stock to not more than 30 in-lbs.

Also, you may need to replace the front trigger guard screw if it is not holding the metal bracket that holds the trigger pins in their place (first picture), or perhaps the bracket itself is at fault, dunno. If this part is not working, let me know and I will send you some external retaining rings for your trigger pins and you can do away with this bracket.

You are shooting well with peeps, as well as you shot with the low mag scope we tested (for those of you that have not read that test, it is here: https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/how-can-less-be-more ), but I would hope that you would do even better with the Discovery scope.

In a well adjusted 54 there is really no recoil felt by the shooter.

If you need more help, let me know.

Keep well, healthy and sane (I do not need to tell you to shoot straight!)







HM

[mcoulter]

Hello Hector,  Thanks so very much for your insight into this rifle.  Good news, the previous owner located the sight inserts and will be sending them along to me.  Again, this is my first experience with a peep and I'm glad that I have not been changing too much to begin with  :-)

The photos were from my first time taking apart the gun and I had removed the trigger guard screw not understanding what it did as I was taking off the stock.  I did reassemble it with that metal piece screwed in properly (I think this could only go together one way.)

Thanks for letting me know about the softer rubber in the bushings. I'll see if I can procure the proper ones.

I continue to loosen the sled adjuster a little bit each time I shoot.  And the recoil is certainly feeling less now than in the beginning. 

I'll probably keep the peeps on for a while...  I'm excited to see how the other inserts work  ;-)   But yes, I'll put the discovery on again and it'll be interesting to see how it performs now vs. during my initial testing.

Thanks again!

I'm happy to report that this rifle seems quite repeatable.  I didn't have much time to shoot today but I got out for a little while.  I'm finding in good conditions I can hit a 2" stick on target at 53y more often than not.  Out of 15 shots, I had three that fell outside of the bulleyes:

[dtdtdtdt]

Matt: 

On the rubber washers and torque.  Hector suggests no more than 30inlb.  I experimented with my .177 54 and found that the range of 20-25 seemed best.  I found that inconsistent torquing caused the point of impact to change a little bit.  When I first got it, I used cowboy tight (as tight as you can get it and then another quarter turn!!!) At that level, the rubber was fully compressed and the action   was rubbing the stock with bad results.  I really think the key is not tightening it so much that the action can bind. 

I noted the thick rubber too.  I thought I had mentioned it in one of my notes but must have accidentally deleted that text before sending.  I am really glad that Hector noted it!!!! 

Dave

[HectorMedina]

Dave;

30 in-lbs mentioned is the LIMIT.
And in here I am going to rant a little. A LIMIT is a LIMIT people!  Don't always think that more is better. Work your way up and see what happens. Trying to "push the envelope" in everything is not savvy for your wallet.  ;-)
EOR.

At some point in time, as Matt advances in his exploration of the 54, he will need to "tune" the sled and stock screws to the pellet and the power level he has settled on using.
Right now, at about 700 fps with the 18 grs JSB's he is on the "sedate side"(under 20 ft-lbs), when he wants to get into the 22-24 ft-lbs region with lighter pellets (My favourites in 0.22" are the 16 grs. JSB's and the Predators in the same weight), then he will need to get into the "fine print" of this marriage contract.

20-25  in-lbs is good for most guns, but Matt will need to do the exercise once he decides what he will be shooting, and in the case of using light pellets (14.3's), then a bit more works better, BUT never to exceed the 30 marked above, as that is the point where the OEM washers compress and become pretty useless.

HTH





HM

[dtdtdtdt]

Hector:

Thanks for amplifying our comments with a much clearer explanation. 

I noted that you said a maximum limit of 30inlb and was trying to emphasize that.  There have been numerous discussions on the rubber being compressed too much as you well know.  When I was stocking powder rifles and trying to make them stable for longer range shooting, I did use much higher torques but learned quickly (from you probably) that it wasn't good for air rifles. 

You might remember that I tried using the adjustable washers once and found that they made the action sit too high, to the point that I had to use the curved tip of the trigger rather than the shoe.  They went into the parts box and the rubber washers came back.

Perhaps Matt and the other poster (can't remember exactly who) who have measurable recoil will find it has gone away if they lighten up on the stock screws?

Cheers!

[mcoulter]

This discussion is such a good great example & reinforcement of why I take and post a lot of photos.  I never would have thought to consider the rubber bushings used in this gun.  But by chance, the kind folks here who have "been there and done that" are sharing their knowledge and (likely) informing me in such a way to reduce the likelihood of me making bad decisions in the future

And since I am not the best note taker, I use these photos as a log of what I have done/changed and when.  Google photo albums have been the absolute best thing for keeping track of my shooting (chrony results, pellet testing, playing with scopes, etc.)  And to be honest, my family does not have the least bit of interest in this hobby so I guess sharing what do and learn here brings a certain satisfaction!  I also hope that other folks who own similar rifles in the future may also benefit from the details and conversations we have here  :-)

[fwbsport]

Yes the photos I really learn more by sight and most do, and the torque limits had been pointed out before I know.  I had wondered what to do if my screws got loose from Hector's torque, but all screws are showing the same "clock faces" they had when I got it.

By the way, Hector, the certificate came!  Now I want to know about "Connecticut Custom Airguns" and the number 27 Von 30, etc!

[mcoulter]

The winds were whipping with gusts well into the 20mph range today.  I thought I'd take some of my lunchtime and chrony three different JSB pellets.  These are only short averages from 5 shot strings with the 18s being the first and then last ones to measure.

JSB 18.1 / 685 fps / 18.9 fpe  (10 shot average)
JSB 15.9 / 778 fps / 21.4 fpe (5 shot average)
JSB 14.3 / 783 fps / 19.5 fpe (5 shot average)

I was pretty surprised to see how big the jump in speed and energy was between the 18s and the 15.9s.

These were the winds I was shooting in:





Target was at 25 yards.  14.3 on the left, 18s in the middle, and 15.9s on the right.  I accidentally grabbed an 18 when shooting the right target  :-0




And the final target after shooting the 2nd set of 18s.  I also adjusted the peep 12 clicks to the right for that group:

[HectorMedina]

Nice, Matt, thanks!

And this is one of those cases that illustrated precisely why we decided to offer the HPM in the AirKing Pro.

Matt's gun's powerplant seems to like the 16 grainers (as most rifles I've seen), it shows by achieving a better yield with the 16 grainers than with the 14 grainers; the TOP yield is with the 16's; BUT the best accuracy is with the 18's.

THIS is the typical situation where an HPM can allow the shooter to shoot at the power level that the powerplant can develop, and achieving a higher precision/accuracy with the pellet of choice than would otherwise have been possible.

Again, thanks!




HM

[mcoulter]

Your're welcome Hector!

(It was such HARD work doing this too!)

 

[mcoulter]

The rifle's previous owner found and was kind enough to send some different front sight inserts and I had a decent window to play with them Saturday morning.  I had been shooting with a post and decided to try this circular insert to test:



I should also say that this has been my first experience with a peep sight and this type of front sight so I'm learning as go...  The big takeaway is that I don't like any of my typical targets with these sights.   I found that both my 2" splatterburst and the little 1/2 inch stickers both became harder to see and get centered as I shot more at any given target.  I'm now seeing the value of targets with large amounts of black in them. 

Here's my 1st test where the top two targets were with the exiting post site and the bottom two and middle are with the 4.0 circular sight.  These are with jsb 18s at 22 yards, rested and 5-shot groups.  I did make some click adjustments between targets.




And this was my next target which are all shot with the circular front sight.  The top two bullsyes are with jsb 18s and the center + bottom two are with jsb 15.9 pellets. 

** Oops! **  I think I have been mistaken here.  JSB Express are not 15.9, but are 14.3...  I'll verify what's in my tin and correct this post as-needed.

As I shot these targets, my I found that they were REALLY hard to see and then center...  I probably won't be shooting these targets any more with these sights...