What was the explanation as to why it wasn't producing the power you requested?
Hey Joe,From what I understand, High powered Vortek kits can give maximum power at the expense of a harsher shot cycle. OEM Weihrauch springs give moderate+ power, moderate shot cycle, but their springs don't have the quality many after market springs offer. AGH tune kits offer better power than OEM, with better shot cycle and spring longevity. Maccari isn't so concerned about max. power, but will tell you how to achieve it with his springs. Jim uses larger diameter springs with thicker wire vs. OEM. High power Vortek kits are concerned with max. power by using smaller diameter, thicker springs. Smaller diameter springs create more power, with increased cocking force.Because of your altitude, I believe you want max. power period and have made adjustments for any increased recoil . If they shoot very accurately for you ......... you're set
The real truth!Well, this was the real truth for you and your situation as you showed, and in my world the real truth hinges around hitting the target without the velocity although reading the velocity numbers from AOA always tell me that the velocities others are getting an their chronographs don't seem to match the Oehler they use there.....oh well! So what you are experiencing after 4 months of air rifling is the beginning of an explanation for a hypothesis that still needs testing before declared scientific fact.... .....but to me the world of springers is always a mystery we all STRIVE for EXCELLENCE in!I read where someone had the option to test and buy one of Hector's rifles and now I wonder if there is an option to buy his ugly old heavy .20 Diana Air King? Hector you have the right to say what you want here but I don't have a Diana and it just occurred to me I'd easily like to have yours instead of going somewhere else to get an "unnatural" rifle!You see all, even though I have mostly HWs not having a really tuned 54 that I've worked with tells me I need MORE time with this rifle....I do have a couple rifles I'd send to the cause (your cause Hector!) to work with as "unnaturals" : A Beeman Falcon R-s .25 and a TM 1000 .177--they both need refilling and the TM won't hold air. If these can be added to the "trial to own" then I'm in! I was at 5,500 ft with a 1969 BSF Springer .177 shooting that until the late 70's in Washoe Valley, Nevada. That was the rifle that lasted forever with thousands of rounds fired over the years without scope and then with scope. I found a properly cared for decent springer will last a lifetime without any replacement parts and that was the philosophy ingrained in me about the quality of these rifles. Later in 1980s I met Beeman himself in San Rafael to buy an HW35 E B .177 and that reunited me with air rifles in Seminary in San Anselmo. From then I never thought about replacing a spring until I came to an air rifle forum later on. I read and thought maybe I should replace a spring like Kimber's 1911s after every 500 rounds or so. But I never got around to it and continued focusing on my own needs in an air rifle; which really dictate to me what works for my arena.
In all fairness Kirk, and you know I hold very high regard for you. To say anything like, "From what I understand, High powered Vortek kits can give maximum power at the expense of a harsher shot cycle." is just relaying information that you've read rather than, your personal first hand experience. Repositng information that you haven't personally experienced doesn't help anyone. I would welcome you or anyone to shoot any of my Vortek kitted Weihrauch springers. After that you can make any statements about them you like. The only Vortek kitted gun I have that's remotely close to harsh is my peep sighted Hw30. Thats only because its only a 6lb gun making 8fpe. And btw its lazer beam accurate and has over 30k rounds on that spring alone. This rifle still has single digit extreme spreads and has more notches in its belt than any other AG I own. Granted it did start off making 8.5fpe and after a couple, three thousand rounds it settled down to 8fpe where it's remained since. In short please don't relay mis-information. Btw tomorrow I'm sending you those free 20 cal heavies and don't worry about the shipping cost. Someone here is sending me pellets they can't use for absolutely n/c so I'm paying it forward.
Quote from: Bayman on October 06, 2019, 03:25:27 PMIn all fairness Kirk, and you know I hold very high regard for you. To say anything like, "From what I understand, High powered Vortek kits can give maximum power at the expense of a harsher shot cycle." is just relaying information that you've read rather than, your personal first hand experience. Repositng information that you haven't personally experienced doesn't help anyone. I would welcome you or anyone to shoot any of my Vortek kitted Weihrauch springers. After that you can make any statements about them you like. The only Vortek kitted gun I have that's remotely close to harsh is my peep sighted Hw30. Thats only because its only a 6lb gun making 8fpe. And btw its lazer beam accurate and has over 30k rounds on that spring alone. This rifle still has single digit extreme spreads and has more notches in its belt than any other AG I own. Granted it did start off making 8.5fpe and after a couple, three thousand rounds it settled down to 8fpe where it's remained since. In short please don't relay mis-information. Btw tomorrow I'm sending you those free 20 cal heavies and don't worry about the shipping cost. Someone here is sending me pellets they can't use for absolutely n/c so I'm paying it forward. Hey Ron,Maybe I generalized ... to all other Vortek kits, but I tuned one of my HW30S a few years ago using a ARH spring and was only able to get about 625 fps with AA 7.33 Falcons. Being disappointed with this power level, I read that many folks had used the Vortek SHO kits and got 700 fps using the same pellet I had . Hence, I gladly shelled out the $80 for the kit and installed it. Long story short, the velocity increased to 650 fps, but the cocking and shot cycle difference led me to pull it from the gun and add it to my parts tray . I think my gun's compression chamber is out of round, but I just decided to go back to what I had originally put in the gun and use it. The gun has always been very accurate.Sorry I didn't put my actual Vortek experience in the post . I have also done a few tunes on my HW50's (using ARH springs), trying to get more power, just by adding a more powerful spring and found the shot cycle harness and unfair trade off for the increased velocity.Not trying to bash Vortek kits, just not my preference, but they are really easy to drop-in. Ron, glad you and many others really like them .
The only thing I have to say about Vortek kits is that they represent instant gratification for most people. I have a lathe and the skill to use it. I can make spring guides and top hats all day long...That being said, I have bought five PG2 kits and installed four. All the installed ones are excellent. The one yet to be installed is/was destined for a TO1 triggered Diana 48. There have been issues over time with using the PG2 kit with them. The PG3 kit may be better here..At the end of the day, I wonder if there just isn't some resistance to changing times and technology. Myself, I hate tar and am happy not to have to manufacture parts and use it....I tell any one who asks about air rifles to buy a RWS/Diana 34 and a Vortek kit for it...Use the factory spring for the break in and then install the kit....
When my tuner installed my vortek kit in my hw50s .177 which was the the standard power kit,non sho it lost 50fps as compared the the rifles stock set up when he chronied the gun.It has about 1500 rounds through it now and has gone up 10 fps since i first chronied it when i got it back It shoots at about 9fpe and im at 3000 ft elevation.
Quote from: SpiralGroove on October 06, 2019, 01:56:08 PMHey Joe,From what I understand, High powered Vortek kits can give maximum power at the expense of a harsher shot cycle. OEM Weihrauch springs give moderate+ power, moderate shot cycle, but their springs don't have the quality many after market springs offer. AGH tune kits offer better power than OEM, with better shot cycle and spring longevity. Maccari isn't so concerned about max. power, but will tell you how to achieve it with his springs. Jim uses larger diameter springs with thicker wire vs. OEM. High power Vortek kits are concerned with max. power by using smaller diameter, thicker springs. Smaller diameter springs create more power, with increased cocking force.Because of your altitude, I believe you want max. power period and have made adjustments for any increased recoil . If they shoot very accurately for you ......... you're set Correct! Because of my altitude I NEED full power just to make up for what is lost naturally at my elevation. But no, the shot cycle is not "harsher," nor is the cocking effort greater. In fact, the shot cycle is smooth and crisp and the recoil is so much less that stock that I don't even have to loctite my scope mounts anymore to keep the scope from creeping! The cocking is smooth, tight, and very predictable. I have not one single negative thing to say about my Vortek PG2 or PG3 kits, only positive things and praise based on my actual first hand experience.
Quote from: SpiralGroove on October 06, 2019, 01:56:08 PMHey Joe,From what I understand, High powered Vortek kits can give maximum power at the expense of a harsher shot cycle. OEM Weihrauch springs give moderate+ power, moderate shot cycle, but their springs don't have the quality many after market springs offer. AGH tune kits offer better power than OEM, with better shot cycle and spring longevity. Maccari isn't so concerned about max. power, but will tell you how to achieve it with his springs. Jim uses larger diameter springs with thicker wire vs. OEM. High power Vortek kits are concerned with max. power by using smaller diameter, thicker springs. Smaller diameter springs create more power, with increased cocking force.Because of your altitude, I believe you want max. power period and have made adjustments for any increased recoil . If they shoot very accurately for you ......... you're set In all fairness Kirk, and you know I hold very high regard for you. To say anything like, "From what I understand, High powered Vortek kits can give maximum power at the expense of a harsher shot cycle." is just relaying information that you've read rather than, your personal first hand experience. Reposting information that you haven't personally experienced doesn't help anyone. I would welcome you or anyone to shoot any of my Vortek kitted Weihrauch springers. After that you can make any statements about them you like. The only Vortek kitted gun I have that's remotely close to harsh is my peep sighted Hw30. Thats only because its only a 6lb gun making 8fpe. And btw its lazer beam accurate and has over 30k rounds on that spring alone. This rifle still has single digit extreme spreads and has more notches in its belt than any other AG I own. Granted it did start off making 8.5fpe and after a couple, three thousand rounds it settled down to 8fpe where it's remained since. In short please don't relay mis-information. Btw tomorrow I'm sending you those free 20 cal heavies and don't worry about the shipping cost. Someone here is sending me pellets they can't use for absolutely n/c so I'm paying it forward.
Quote from: 3 at 8 on October 06, 2019, 02:44:34 PMWhat was the explanation as to why it wasn't producing the power you requested?Just coming on here BEFORE this turns into a SLAM FEST ..... And after just doing another HW-97 in .177 caliber in the last couple days, HAVING THE SAME Power or lack of issue started to scratch my head and look for NON OBVIOUS answers While I'm not wishing to slam others / manufacturers either ... Like JOE who is the OP of this thread going to call it as i see it ... THESE ARH "SGS" SEALS are at the root of the issue !!Doing a .177 with this seal as was used in Joes gun .. barely able to make 11 ft lbs and that with ARH's new HORNET spring https://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251488/1256921.htmAs luck would have it also had just received an order of seals from ARH having some of the "Hornet seals in the order.Where the SGS seal has a compression side lip the hornet does not, tho did require minor sizing. Where the HORNET must be heavily trimmed / sized to get a good fit. ( It has no expansion capacity )CHANGED NOTHING but the seal and put gun back together ... BAM !! 14.6 ft lbs In all my years of tuning, using ARH seals, OEM springs with custom guides NEVER have I seen this issue before and only because of doing two near identical guns back to back did I discover what is AN ISSUE !!This issue of customer dissatisfaction / not getting what was asked for is between Joe and Myself and will be addressed in private to both of our satisfaction.Scott S
Great thread Jose- very informative!My general impression has been (over the years) that if you want it hot, put in a Vortek kit.If you want it sweet, go for Maccari.
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