I'll never dare to bend a barrel. I'll rather use an adjustable or a drooper mount.Interesting stuff this 56th 22mm piston transformation. But I think it's only effective on a 177 version. For a 22cal the power output would be too low to be usable well up to 55yds.
I just received a 56 myself. So, I'm devouring the info in this thread. However, I'm feeling a little thick headed because I'm still struggling to figure out what y'all mean by 22mm vs. 28mm. What's being measured here? Is it the distance that the piston is travelling? If so, I don't really understand how that was changed. Clearly, I'm missing something here.
Quote from: EricFR on July 25, 2019, 05:14:03 AMI'll never dare to bend a barrel. I'll rather use an adjustable or a drooper mount.Interesting stuff this 56th 22mm piston transformation. But I think it's only effective on a 177 version. For a 22cal the power output would be too low to be usable well up to 55yds.At full stroke with similar preload using the same spring at Steve is using it would be well over 750fps with 14.5gr pellets...how much fps do you need?Stroke makes power, 28mm bore wastes around 55% of the available energy, 22mm wastes a lot less, so you make more power from less swept volume.People think you need huge swept volume to make power, you need stroke more than anything, the amount of air for 12fpe is 30cc, the issue is you have to have the right stroke to generate the pressure you need with that air volume, this is where a smaller piston and a medium stroke comes into play.Dont be fooled by anyone saying 22mm can not make power, it can, Steve likes 11.5fpe with 177, im a UK based tuner and i only tune to 11.5fpe, however 22mm has much greater potential as long as the stroke is correct. I have to shorten the stroke by at least 9mm to give Steve at least some preload to play with and keep the power where he wants it, if his set up was running 6mm preload at full stroke the power would be a lot higher...think 100fps or more higher. If Steve could just do a barrel swap his rig would be pushing close to 700fps at 14.5gr .22 already imo.
Quote from: HectorMedina on July 24, 2019, 01:03:29 PMThanks, Steve!Hard Data is all I ask for.I find your recoil sled interesting, just to be sure that we are talking in the same terms (I will use the most common understanding in the shooting world to start):Recoil is the BACKWARDS movement of the gun (whether action alone, or stock and action), same definition as for ANY rifle or gun.Surge is the FORWARDS movement of the gun once the gun reaches its furthest rearmost position (due to recoil), and starts moving forwards.Am I correct?Since one direction of movement is back and the other fore, do you add the absolute numbers? Because otherwise TOTAL movement should always be LESS than the parts.Another doubt I have is how did you measure the stock recoil in a 56? With so many mods (less ball engagement, screw modifications, polished surfaces, Orings inserted) carried out between the Pre-kit and the Post-kit scenarios, how can we ascribe all changes to ONE item?And lastly, one consideration: Shouldn't you be measuring recoil/ft-lb? Otherwise the comparison is oranges to grapefruits.Last question: Have you ever put a powerful PCP in the sled?Sorry for the questions, but I really need to understand better your tests. It IS a fantastic write-up and a VERY worthwhile modification that suits your needs. Great job and congratulations again.Keep well and shoot straight!HMHi Hector, I responded to your questions below in red font."I find your recoil sled interesting, just to be sure that we are talking in the same terms (I will use the most common understanding in the shooting world to start):Recoil is the BACKWARDS movement of the gun (whether action alone, or stock and action), same definition as for ANY rifle or gun.Surge is the FORWARDS movement of the gun once the gun reaches its furthest rearmost position (due to recoil), and starts moving forwards.Am I correct?"Yes, that is correct."Since one direction of movement is back and the other fore, do you add the absolute numbers? Because otherwise TOTAL movement should always be LESS than the parts"I start calculation over for each segment. So for example, if initial recoil is 4.75mm, then there is a clear stopping point at 4.75mm. The next movement is forward (The surge). So, if the stopping point for the recoil was 4.75mm on my scale, and the rifle then surged forward to a new stopping point back to 3.75mm, then I record a 1mm surge. Total movement would have been 4.75mm plus 1 mm, for a total movement of 5.75mm."Another doubt I have is how did you measure the stock recoil in a 56?" The entire rifle was mounted in the recoil test sled. The recoil pad was removed, so it was strapped tightly against the non rubber butt plate so there is no recoil pad compression to mask the results. The sled only measures the movement felt in the stock, while a separate scale affixed to the rifle indicated movement in the sliding action. Both were free to move with no restriction. So, while the D56's sliding action absorbed the shot, there is still some inertia that fed to the stock. Minimal, but it was there, barely over 2mm. If I were to tighten up on the D56's rear sled setting, maybe even remove the o-rings, thus allowing the ball to fully engage into the detent, I would expect to see more movement transferred to my recoil sled. Obviously unless there is a physical change to the internal powerplant, the kinetic energy being generated for and aft will remain the same. On a sled gun like the 56, it is just a matter of how that energy is absorbed into the sliding mechanism. "With so many mods (less ball engagement, screw modifications, polished surfaces, Orings inserted) carried out between the Pre-kit and the Post-kit scenarios, how can we ascribe all changes to ONE item?"You are 100% correct The differences documented were the collective result of all changes. However, the largest change made for reducing actual kinetic energy being generated by the rifle was switching from a 300+ gram piston to a 149.5 gram piston.Had I done all changes except for the power plant, I could have compared the factory powerplant before and after sled changes, etc. In hindsight I wish I would have done this. As stiff as the action slide mechanism was from the factory, It was restricting the sled from absorbing as much, and was transferring more of the energy into the stock (with over 5mm of stock movement registered on my recoil sled). Had I worked on the sliding mechanism a bit, I could have reduced what was transferred to the stock, and absorbed more in the action slides."And lastly, one consideration: Shouldn't you be measuring recoil/ft-lb? Otherwise the comparison is oranges to grapefruits."Yes, that would be the best way to figure out which tunes were giving the most bang for the buck as far as reducing overall movement. Obviously, if you reduce energy you reduce movement. I have done that for my own curiosity, but only report on the basic sled readings in my write-ups. At the end of the day, I am looking for what will give me the most consistently tight groups on target with the greatest ease of shooting. All the jargon behind the scenes means nothing if a rifle won't shoot, regadless if total movement is more or less "Last question: Have you ever put a powerful PCP in the sled?"Unfortunately I built the recoil sled after I sold my PCP's. I wish I would have had the sled back when I was setting up and tuning my PCP's "Sorry for the questions, but I really need to understand better your tests"No problem Hector After all of the questions I asked you when I first got this rifle, I owe you some Q&A time "It IS a fantastic write-up and a VERY worthwhile modification that suits your needs. Great job and congratulations again"Thank you Hector, much appreciated. My favorite part of each new rifle is the tune and set up in order to get the most out of it;) I am really enjoying this rifle. This is my first Diana sled gun and I'm glad I made the purchase, the ease of shooting is incredible Steve
Thanks, Steve!Hard Data is all I ask for.I find your recoil sled interesting, just to be sure that we are talking in the same terms (I will use the most common understanding in the shooting world to start):Recoil is the BACKWARDS movement of the gun (whether action alone, or stock and action), same definition as for ANY rifle or gun.Surge is the FORWARDS movement of the gun once the gun reaches its furthest rearmost position (due to recoil), and starts moving forwards.Am I correct?Since one direction of movement is back and the other fore, do you add the absolute numbers? Because otherwise TOTAL movement should always be LESS than the parts.Another doubt I have is how did you measure the stock recoil in a 56? With so many mods (less ball engagement, screw modifications, polished surfaces, Orings inserted) carried out between the Pre-kit and the Post-kit scenarios, how can we ascribe all changes to ONE item?And lastly, one consideration: Shouldn't you be measuring recoil/ft-lb? Otherwise the comparison is oranges to grapefruits.Last question: Have you ever put a powerful PCP in the sled?Sorry for the questions, but I really need to understand better your tests. It IS a fantastic write-up and a VERY worthwhile modification that suits your needs. Great job and congratulations again.Keep well and shoot straight!HM
Hey Steve and TonyYou guys are really after my wallet for sure. LOL I have a D48 that I have detuned to 12fpe and while its a huge difference from the stock 16/17 fpe with a Vortek SHO kit in it, it still is fairly heavy cocking and has significant recoil albeit better than at FAC. Its an older TO1 trigger model but some of the trigger mods done to the TO6 I believe can be performed on the TO1 as well so will look into that indeed. I do like the 48 for a bench gun but as other have stated its also to heavy for me for off hand shooting. Great right up and pics as usual Steve and really like the results and accuracy of your new 56th with those single hole groups. Both you and the gun are excellent marksman and a true asset to this sport/hobby.In the near future I will be having the pleasure of installing one of Tony's 22mm kits in our UKHFT club match directors TX200 MKII to see what the difference is from the MKII to MKIII in terms of energy and shot cycle between the two. He wanted my MKIII very badly and offered me a to good to refuse price for it, but being I know its an accurate shooter and not really wanting to play the roulette game of buying another MKIII only to get a dud. He has found a MKII from a very reputable fellow AAFTA shooter that is a known accurate gun. So never having owned or shot a MKII I made a deal with him that he acquire the MKII and I would convert/tune it for him with the agreement that he can chose whichever TX he prefers, The MKII or the MKIII and I get the other one. SO my hopes are that he prefers the MKIII over the MKII so that I end up with a nice 22mm kitted MKII. I may be wrong in my thinking but I believe that converting the MKII to 22mm due to its shorter stroke will create a TX with an even smoother and lower felt recoiling gun than the MKIII is with the 22mm kit. Those are my hopes any way, but either way I will still have a excellent shooting and known accurate TX to enjoy for years to come. I will never the less document the conversion in a new thread when I get the gun and conversion complete. Just in the waiting process for the gun and kit to arrive to him to be given to me for the work to be completed.Mike
Quote from: buldawg76 on July 25, 2019, 02:38:18 PMHey Steve and TonyYou guys are really after my wallet for sure. LOL I have a D48 that I have detuned to 12fpe and while its a huge difference from the stock 16/17 fpe with a Vortek SHO kit in it, it still is fairly heavy cocking and has significant recoil albeit better than at FAC. Its an older TO1 trigger model but some of the trigger mods done to the TO6 I believe can be performed on the TO1 as well so will look into that indeed. I do like the 48 for a bench gun but as other have stated its also to heavy for me for off hand shooting. Great right up and pics as usual Steve and really like the results and accuracy of your new 56th with those single hole groups. Both you and the gun are excellent marksman and a true asset to this sport/hobby.In the near future I will be having the pleasure of installing one of Tony's 22mm kits in our UKHFT club match directors TX200 MKII to see what the difference is from the MKII to MKIII in terms of energy and shot cycle between the two. He wanted my MKIII very badly and offered me a to good to refuse price for it, but being I know its an accurate shooter and not really wanting to play the roulette game of buying another MKIII only to get a dud. He has found a MKII from a very reputable fellow AAFTA shooter that is a known accurate gun. So never having owned or shot a MKII I made a deal with him that he acquire the MKII and I would convert/tune it for him with the agreement that he can chose whichever TX he prefers, The MKII or the MKIII and I get the other one. SO my hopes are that he prefers the MKIII over the MKII so that I end up with a nice 22mm kitted MKII. I may be wrong in my thinking but I believe that converting the MKII to 22mm due to its shorter stroke will create a TX with an even smoother and lower felt recoiling gun than the MKIII is with the 22mm kit. Those are my hopes any way, but either way I will still have a excellent shooting and known accurate TX to enjoy for years to come. I will never the less document the conversion in a new thread when I get the gun and conversion complete. Just in the waiting process for the gun and kit to arrive to him to be given to me for the work to be completed.Mike Hi Mike, Actually on the MKII, Tony will increase the stroke to 90mm. So in the end it will match your MKIII. For a TX in the upper 10-11 fpe range, the 22mm piston x 90mm stroke is sort of a sweet spot in Tony's kits. So lets say you have your MKIII set for 11.4 fpe, and wanted to set up at the same energy level but with a shorter stroke.....in order to retain that energy level you would have to make up for the reduction in stroke with more spring (equals higher cocking effort and a more jumpy rifle). Lots of testing has led Tony to the 22mm x 90mm specs for the TX200's in the upper 10-11 fpe range. Hope this helps?Steve
Quote from: Nitrocrushr on July 25, 2019, 07:48:23 PMQuote from: buldawg76 on July 25, 2019, 02:38:18 PMHey Steve and TonyYou guys are really after my wallet for sure. LOL I have a D48 that I have detuned to 12fpe and while its a huge difference from the stock 16/17 fpe with a Vortek SHO kit in it, it still is fairly heavy cocking and has significant recoil albeit better than at FAC. Its an older TO1 trigger model but some of the trigger mods done to the TO6 I believe can be performed on the TO1 as well so will look into that indeed. I do like the 48 for a bench gun but as other have stated its also to heavy for me for off hand shooting. Great right up and pics as usual Steve and really like the results and accuracy of your new 56th with those single hole groups. Both you and the gun are excellent marksman and a true asset to this sport/hobby.In the near future I will be having the pleasure of installing one of Tony's 22mm kits in our UKHFT club match directors TX200 MKII to see what the difference is from the MKII to MKIII in terms of energy and shot cycle between the two. He wanted my MKIII very badly and offered me a to good to refuse price for it, but being I know its an accurate shooter and not really wanting to play the roulette game of buying another MKIII only to get a dud. He has found a MKII from a very reputable fellow AAFTA shooter that is a known accurate gun. So never having owned or shot a MKII I made a deal with him that he acquire the MKII and I would convert/tune it for him with the agreement that he can chose whichever TX he prefers, The MKII or the MKIII and I get the other one. SO my hopes are that he prefers the MKIII over the MKII so that I end up with a nice 22mm kitted MKII. I may be wrong in my thinking but I believe that converting the MKII to 22mm due to its shorter stroke will create a TX with an even smoother and lower felt recoiling gun than the MKIII is with the 22mm kit. Those are my hopes any way, but either way I will still have a excellent shooting and known accurate TX to enjoy for years to come. I will never the less document the conversion in a new thread when I get the gun and conversion complete. Just in the waiting process for the gun and kit to arrive to him to be given to me for the work to be completed.Mike Hi Mike, Actually on the MKII, Tony will increase the stroke to 90mm. So in the end it will match your MKIII. For a TX in the upper 10-11 fpe range, the 22mm piston x 90mm stroke is sort of a sweet spot in Tony's kits. So lets say you have your MKIII set for 11.4 fpe, and wanted to set up at the same energy level but with a shorter stroke.....in order to retain that energy level you would have to make up for the reduction in stroke with more spring (equals higher cocking effort and a more jumpy rifle). Lots of testing has led Tony to the 22mm x 90mm specs for the TX200's in the upper 10-11 fpe range. Hope this helps?SteveHey TonyWell that does make sense since in talking with my match director he mentioned that Tony asked him if he wanted him to include a new latching rod or if he could handle the modifications to the stock one but was not sure what actually needed modified. He did say he thought it had to be shortened so that explains the change required. I can shorten and rethread but I believe he got the new modified rod sent with the kit. I will know when I have it in my hands.I was kind of hoping for it to be a shorter stroke but had been thinking about in order for it to be shorter and keep the same power level it likely would require more spring energy to achieve the same power thereby negating any benefit from the short stroke. So its basically taking the MKII to a MKIII power plant configuration. Oh well I guess it may be a toss up as to which gun he likes best. Likely will be more dependent on accuracy than shot cycle if both come out the same in power levels.Honestly I was not real keen on letting my TX go since its a one hole at 30 yard gun with the AA7.87s at 815 fps with only a 4 fps ES. He fell in love with it when he dismembered a red wasp from its abdomen at 30 yards and we founds the abdomen laying right where he shot it fully intact and trying to sting him when he picked it up. So if the MKII he gets is not of the same accuracy as my MKIII then it will stay with me and he will have a nice MKII/III conversion.Thanks for the info spot on as usual.Mike
Advertise Here
Share This!