spring piston outdated??

[nced]

"That .25 has been everywhere any weather anytime without ever killing a scope. It has DAMPA mounts."
Hummmm.......Why did you feel the need of a $100 rubber lined scope mount to save your scopes from the recoil of a heavy 11 pound (with scope and mount) rammer?

Because, nced, the Dampa Mounts are permanently attached to the Eliminator (and Crow Magnum) by THE FACTORY and NOT added for another C note!

I didn't know that, thanks for the feedback!

You mentioned that you've never had any scope damage with your "rammer" and I'd be interested in knowing what scope you use vs how many "shots per year".

I switched about 4 or 5 different scopes in the year 1999 and ended up using and leaving a Leupold VarXIII 4.5-14X with extended elevation turret for quick elevation changes.  I hit a pigeon at a measured 91 yards with a .20 and killed a coyote with the .25 in the worst of weather: Arizona monsoon!

Since those animal shots I've had to kill some red squirrels at 30 yards but not much further than that.

Now, it is there for killing but I still shoot it a lot at steel silhouettes with all my other air guns.

I'd defend the Theoben to the end and just yesterday I had the opportunity to show it to Gipper!  Now ask him what he thinks of my Elim!

Yours,
John

Thanks for the reply!

$1200 for a piston gun (with free scope mount) and $700 for a scope (on sale) certainly SHOULD make a good $1900 piston gun + scope, however I do find the scope settled on to be interesting. If I'm not mistaken (certainly could be) only two Leupold scopes will parallax down to 10 yards and they are the two "EFR" (Extended Focusing Range) models ........the 3-9 and the 6.5×20. The Leupold site is rather sparse not even listing the minimum parallax distance, however I'm guessing that the distance is either 50 yards or 100 yards. Regardless, as long as the "Leupy" works well for you you've made a good decision. I do a lot of hunter class field target shooting and I definitely need a sharp focus at a 10 yard 3/8" diameter killzone with "good scope rangefinding focus" so I'm more limited on scope choice.   
 
I was wondering how a scope and piston seal would hold up over time. Seems to me that the long term weakness would be the oring seals and piston seal which is why I asked how many shots are on your Theoben. Here is a pic of an eroded Theoben piston seal but I really don't know how many shots.........
 

When I was living in West Virginia I would shoot roughly a 1250 count box of CPLs per month (10,000 shots per year) and my factory piston seals would erode at the transfer port after thousands of shots.......

LOL.....I solved my seal erosion issues by making an aluminum oring sealed piston cap to replace the factory HW "rubber seal" like this...........

Currently I'm testing out an oring sealed piston cap made of molly filled 6/6 nylon and so far it's holding up...........


Anywhoo......as mentioned previously, IMHO the weak part of piston guns (gas ram or coil spring) is the piston seal and when I read of owners of gas ram guns shooting for 10 years (or whatever) I tend to question the frequency of use simply based on my experience with springers of much less power. LOL....even the low powered FWB300 match rifle uses a metal piston seal ring instead of rubber, however they can last for 100s of thousands of shots...........

[A.K.A. Tommy Boy]

nced :

You shoot more in 1 year with 1 gun than I shoot in 5 years with all 16 of my guns.

Outside of the fall and winter hunting seasons, I don't shoot my guns that much.  I have a Crosman Vantage that I bought when Crosman first came out with them. That was about 8 or 9 years ago..I think.   It has held up really well but it only gets shot 6 months out of the year and even when it gets shot, that is not a lot.   During the off-season, what I tend to shot the most, is my Sheridan Silver Streak.

I sincerely thank you for your feedback and sharing of your extensive knowledge.   I always greatly appreciate your point of view, even if it runs contrary to mine at times.  It gives me pause to think about things that I may have overlooked or not considered.   I'll be looking forward to your future posts.


Best Wishes - Tom

[mac]

+1 to Toms last paragraph.

[Pandur_HR]

I don't personally have a problem with the nitro piston and other cheap rams.  As long as you take it for what it is-  and that is a cheap air rifle capapble of taking a animal at close range.

They are not target rifes.  Not show pieces.  Not serious hunters other than squirrels or rabbits.  It's a backyard bunny basher and close range pest rifle.

I don't see any reason why cheap gas rams would not be a target rifles. If you ment on a competition and match precision, that is true. They are not good for that .

When it comes to the recreational shooting, things are changed. Just bigger target is needed and shoot more shots to determine your group. But you can use it on a target. Recreationally. Depending on a shooter you can even make <1/2 inch groups with them on 25 yards, I did. And found that good for a springer.

Distance is determined by a max range and stability. It has nothing to do with action and rifle cost, it is more about shooter, MV, ES, twist rate, pellet BC and similar. It is more about barrel.
Mine rifle is about <=300$, and I manage to do 3.6 MOA group at 162 yards with it (stock rifle, pellets from tin), check forum N.U.A.H section. You can find there one entry with a cheap Chinese springer rifle too, by another shooter. Yes, the cheap springers rifles can do it.

Something related to action and distances is ES, I managed to decrease mine to 6.5 fps. That is excellent. And I did it by pellet sorting  and slow barrel braking in (using heavy soft pellets and keep barrel clean). Meaning that gas ram work perfect, nothing need to be touched there. By detuning it, max range would be decreased, thus the distances for target shooting too.
For long range you need a perfect projectile or power. Pellets are far away from perfection. None springer is strong enough for bullets, so power is needed.

Hunting is something different since there is ethic involved. But even there hunter skills are playing the role too, more than the rifle cost.

[Pandur_HR]

Main difference between cheap and expensive are:

1. Materials - durability
2. Tolerances - precision
3. Quality control - less factory faults and durability, guarantee that each sample on market is similar.

This is what you pay for. Hunting and shooting skills money can't buy.

With cheaper rifles you can expect anything. From excellent to disaster. But one thing is certain, cheaper most likely will not be durable, materials are as they are. (As nced noticed on piston seals).

But as long as perform well, if perform well, cheap rifle you can use for whatever you like.

[Pandur_HR]

Back from range.

162 yd shooting with wind 7 mph variable, 1-2 o' clock.



Yes, <300 USD gas ramer did that.

[anti-squirrel]

Ivan, thank you for sharing.  That's a fantastic grouping considering the wind, distance, and type of projectile/airgun used!

You also make valid points otherwise. 

[lefteyeshot]

Ivan what gas ram did you shoot that with?

[Pandur_HR]

Ivan what gas ram did you shoot that with?

Gamo G-Magnum IGT .22. Only trigger 2nd stage bolt is changed, all other is from factory. Factory trigger is really bad.

Trick is I spent a lot of time finding a correct pellet.
And practice use of mirage in wind estimation during aiming.
With artillery hold I am still not happy, I still do mistakes.
Scope is now zeroed in optical center on 150m, so I can use full zoom and turrets.

Pellet turn out to be JSB 18.13, 5.54mm diameter, 1.180g weight. 7.8 mm lenght. That one is stable all the way.

It don't mean it will work with other Gamo. As I wrote, cheap rifles are story on its own, each different.

[mac]

Nice shooting Ivan ! You make a good point as in depending on your intended use,with patience and practice you can make the gun you have work for you.
I think it,s a matter of to each his own. Buy the gun that tickles your fancy and have fun with it.

[Pandur_HR]

This is with unsorted pellets on 146m (I had to move it closer since land is softer there), while scope was zeroed on 100m. You can see the difference.

[Pandur_HR]

Nice shooting Ivan ! You make a good point as in depending on your intended use,with patience and practice you can make the gun you have work for you.
I think it,s a matter of to each his own. Buy the gun that tickles your fancy and have fun with it.

Exactly. Most of all, have fun.

[Bryan Heimann]

Regardless of the group you might have shot in a day out, no cheap rammer will ever hang in competition against a target rifle.  Other than something like Scotchmo's custom gun fitted with an lw barrel and other work done.

Cheap rammers are like cheap springers- cheap guns capable of killing an animal.

Don't confuse target rifle with shooting targets-  you can shoot targets with a red rider, but not gonna hang in competition. 

Should be implied without explanation

[nced]

nced :

You shoot more in 1 year with 1 gun than I shoot in 5 years with all 16 of my guns.

Outside of the fall and winter hunting seasons, I don't shoot my guns that much.  I have a Crosman Vantage that I bought when Crosman first came out with them. That was about 8 or 9 years ago..I think.   It has held up really well but it only gets shot 6 months out of the year and even when it gets shot, that is not a lot.   During the off-season, what I tend to shot the most, is my Sheridan Silver Streak.

I sincerely thank you for your feedback and sharing of your extensive knowledge.   I always greatly appreciate your point of view, even if it runs contrary to mine at times.  It gives me pause to think about things that I may have overlooked or not considered.   I'll be looking forward to your future posts.


Best Wishes - Tom

Good points made!

nced :

You shoot more in 1 year with 1 gun than I shoot in 5 years with all 16 of my guns.

Outside of the fall and winter hunting seasons, I don't shoot my guns that much.  I have a Crosman Vantage that I bought when Crosman first came out with them. That was about 8 or 9 years ago..I think.   It has held up really well but it only gets shot 6 months out of the year and even when it gets shot, that is not a lot.   During the off-season, what I tend to shot the most, is my Sheridan Silver Streak.

I sincerely thank you for your feedback and sharing of your extensive knowledge.   I always greatly appreciate your point of view, even if it runs contrary to mine at times.  It gives me pause to think about things that I may have overlooked or not considered.   I'll be looking forward to your future posts.


Best Wishes - Tom

I'm of the opinion that the majority of "pellet shooters" are like you when it comes to "shot count". Since moving to North Carolina I also don't shoot as much as when living in West Virginia and shooting with my brother.

On June, 27th, 2015 I received the last order of CPLs which consisted of 4 cases of Die "B"s and when added to the existing boxes on the shelf this was my 18 box stash (22,500 pellets)........


Here are the remaining 11 boxes as of May 2016 (shot 7 boxes in 11 months, 8750 shots)...........


Here are the remaining 4 boxes as of Jan 2018 (shot 7 boxes in 16ish months, 8750 shots)..........


Since Jan 2018 I'm down to a single box of cps (shot 3 boxes in 16 months, 3750+ shots).

There will be another stash of pellets ordered however I'm not sure if I'll order more 7.9 grain CPLs that need "head sizing" to ease loading into the tight leade of my .177 HW95 (the .177 Beeman R9 has a looser leade and doesn't require pellet head sizing) or more 4.52mm 8.4 grain Air Arms Domes that fit the HW95 leade perfectly without pellet head sizing. I currently have 3 remaining tins of the AA domes and they are accurate from my HW95 when tested at 18 yards, however I haven't taken them to my 50 yard practice to check the accuracy at longer distances. If the AA Domes group well at 50 yards my next order will be for the AA domes. Just for grins I shot a group of AA domes straight from the tin, then a group using the AA 4.52mm domes that were head sized to 4.50mm and the result is included in these pics........

LOL....is does seem that the AA Domes with sized pellet heads were a tad more accurate, however that could have simply been due to the shooter swaying on the bucket when taking the shots, especially shine the unsized AA dome group is elongated side to side as it often happens when I'm "bucket and sticks" shooting! These 50 yard groups also demonstrate my tendency to "sway left to right"..........

Here are the next 5 shots at 50 yards on paper (about 1" ctc windage, 3/8" ctc elevation).......

[Seanh]

Why still make coil spring guns? Well, for me it's because of The theoben Eliminator / Beaman chromag issue ... I cannot buy another gas piston for that gun, nor can I easily find rebuild parts.  Yes I know there are few people here in the states that I can get that rebuilt. But I have to send the entire gun out ... can't just order a part and put it in. 

With the Springer, if they stopped making the particular coil spring I need it's real easy to have one made.

[BBGunNoob]

I look at airgun springs like I look at trucks. New trucks are very fancy and have a lot of technology; older trucks older trucks not so much but still, there's something special that an older truck has that just isn't there with the new ones.

[lefteyeshot]

I look at airgun springs like I look at trucks. New trucks are very fancy and have a lot of technology; older trucks older trucks not so much but still, there's something special that an older truck has that just isn't there with the new ones.

I don't know if you mean pick ups or big truck. But there will always be a place in my heart for an old 7400 White cab over. I drove those things  up and down the east coast, the mid-west and Texas and everything in between. Never drove one had a/c in it. That's the way it was back then. No engine brakes, no air ride and no power steering but a really big steering wheel.

[Bryan Heimann]

I look at airgun springs like I look at trucks. New trucks are very fancy and have a lot of technology; older trucks older trucks not so much but still, there's something special that an older truck has that just isn't there with the new ones.

I don't know if you mean pick ups or big truck. But there will always be a place in my heart for an old 7400 White cab over. I drove those things  up and down the east coast, the mid-west and Texas and everything in between. Never drove one had a/c in it. That's the way it was back then. No engine brakes, no air ride and no power steering but a really big steering wheel.

That is awesome