spring piston outdated??

[SteveP-52]

I have a couple higher end rifles in a Beeman R9 .20 and an HW95 .22. Like Cole, I also like tinkering with less expensive rifles to make them better shooters but I guarantee neither of us ever go into it thinking we'll make them remotely close to any higher end rifle, it just ain't possible and we know it. Whole idea is just to smooth some rough edges, make a trigger a little better and take a so-so rifle to a decent backyard shooter and have some fun doing the tinkering.

[fwbsport]

I have a couple higher end rifles in a Beeman R9 .20 and an HW95 .22. Like Cole, I also like tinkering with less expensive rifles to make them better shooters but I guarantee neither of us ever go into it thinking we'll make them remotely close to any higher end rifle, it just ain't possible and we know it. Whole idea is just to smooth some rough edges, make a trigger a little better and take a so-so rifle to a decent backyard shooter and have some fun doing the tinkering.

Right! I second the motion!
I tinker and shoot my HW50s, 30, R7 mostly!
The FWB Sport is the rifle above them but it is too perfect! It is also a pound heavier......

[fwbsport]

I’ll take a tuned spring piston gun over a gas piston version any day.

Why in the long run it is just two different ways to accomplish the same task.

Yes......both a gas and coil spring accomplish the same task, however the shot cycle is different. The gas ram shot cycle is harsher than a coil spring shot cycle with a similar weight gun shooting at similar velocities and it takes more cocking effort vs the coil spring. Also, the gas ram shot cycle is a known "scope buster".

Decades ago I shot a stock .25 cal Beeman Kodiac (rebadged Webley Patriot springer) the put out a measured 30fpe with Diana Domes and I had no problem cocking the gun for a half dozen shots. Then I had the opportunity to shoot a .20 cal Beeman Crow Magnum (rebadged Theoben Eliminator rated at 25fpe and 28fpe in .25 cal) and it was a GUT BUSTER to cock even though it was putting out less fpe. After shooting 3 shots my "cocking arm" was shot and I decided that if I were given an Eliminator I'd simply sell it.

Come over and shoot my Elim! 

The Eliminator was Theoben's invention and Beeman renamed them Crow Magnums with a different stock--so it's the other way around,

Also, I had Eliminators and Crow Magnums in .20, .22, and .25 TWO times before keeping the .25.

That .25 has been everywhere any weather anytime without ever killing a scope.  It has DAMPA mounts.

Once exposed to an Eliminator from England from the original days before others hopped on the "nitro piston" or other named gas rams things went cheap with less personal labor.

"I had Eliminators and Crow Magnums in .20, .22, and .25 TWO times before keeping the .25."
You sir have "deep pockets" and a lot of tolerance for large, heavy, hard cocking piston guns to buy (I assume) so many Eliminators.
 
"That .25 has been everywhere any weather anytime without ever killing a scope. It has DAMPA mounts."
Hummmm.......Why did you feel the need of a $100 rubber lined scope mount to save your scopes from the recoil of a heavy 11 pound (with scope and mount) rammer?

Ask either Craig Porter or Kevin Gilbride about the number of Elims I bought if you are calling me to question about deep pockets and such. I find offense at your line of talk and charts, as if you know it all and you do not know the Eliminator.

Secondly, I believe you are wrong thinking lighter pellets are easier on springs.  It is not mechanically possible.  Got a degree in Physics and Mechanical Engineering Nced?

Respectfully submitted.

[fwbsport]

"That .25 has been everywhere any weather anytime without ever killing a scope. It has DAMPA mounts."
Hummmm.......Why did you feel the need of a $100 rubber lined scope mount to save your scopes from the recoil of a heavy 11 pound (with scope and mount) rammer?

Because, nced, the Dampa Mounts are permanently attached to the Eliminator (and Crow Magnum) by THE FACTORY and NOT added for another C note!

[mobilehomer]

The REAL reason that rams will not replace springs in high end guns is simply a matter of economics. Many higher end guns use a latching mechanism that goes through the spring. Impossible with a ram. Either type of propulsion can be spec'ed by the manufacturer to be a smooth shooter. There is room for both and both have many adherents. If you like one over the other, fine. DON'T BUY THE ONE YOU DON'T LIKE!!! No need to disrespect those that feel otherwise. 

[DanD]

Ha!  I see mobilehomer had the same thought ^^^^^
I think the main reason you don't see rams on many higher end guns is because the best triggers (HW, AA, Diana) latch to a central rod in the piston, which normal gas springs can't accommodate. The HW90 and N-tec triggers are generally regarded as inferior to thier center-latching relatives.  I know firsthand that my RX2 trigger could not be adjusted as crisply as a Rekord.
I personally love the quick, vibration-free shot cycle of rams, so I try to get all my springers to shoot that way with tune kits, aftermarket springs, or even a just a cut up soda bottle and some heavy tar. The nice thing about springers is that they are so tunable by changing spacing, piston weight, spring diameter, wire size, and coil count.

[nced]

"That .25 has been everywhere any weather anytime without ever killing a scope. It has DAMPA mounts."
Hummmm.......Why did you feel the need of a $100 rubber lined scope mount to save your scopes from the recoil of a heavy 11 pound (with scope and mount) rammer?

Because, nced, the Dampa Mounts are permanently attached to the Eliminator (and Crow Magnum) by THE FACTORY and NOT added for another C note!

I didn't know that, thanks for the feedback!

You mentioned that you've never had any scope damage with your "rammer" and I'd be interested in knowing what scope you use vs how many "shots per year".

[nced]

The REAL reason that rams will not replace springs in high end guns is simply a matter of economics. Many higher end guns use a latching mechanism that goes through the spring. Impossible with a ram. Either type of propulsion can be spec'ed by the manufacturer to be a smooth shooter. There is room for both and both have many adherents. If you like one over the other, fine. DON'T BUY THE ONE YOU DON'T LIKE!!! No need to disrespect those that feel otherwise. 

"DON'T BUY THE ONE YOU DON'T LIKE!!! No need to disrespect those that feel otherwise." 
Hummm......so is expressing differing personal points of view (point by point) is considered being "disrespectful"?
Oh well, no responding directly to comments in the future!

[Pandur_HR]

Just buy what you need.

If you do field target, buy Steyr LG110 or similar.

If you do something else, buy something else.

I am shooting metal plates today, and doing it good with a rifle I have, and see no common sense reason why replacing it, as long as it do what it is suppose to do.

Today, metal plate on 162 yards. Hit.

[mobilehomer]

The REAL reason that rams will not replace springs in high end guns is simply a matter of economics. Many higher end guns use a latching mechanism that goes through the spring. Impossible with a ram. Either type of propulsion can be spec'ed by the manufacturer to be a smooth shooter. There is room for both and both have many adherents. If you like one over the other, fine. DON'T BUY THE ONE YOU DON'T LIKE!!! No need to disrespect those that feel otherwise. 

"DON'T BUY THE ONE YOU DON'T LIKE!!! No need to disrespect those that feel otherwise." 
Hummm......so is expressing differing personal points of view (point by point) is considered being "disrespectful"?
Oh well, no responding directly to comments in the future!

NCED, you misunderstand my statement. I have read on other threads and from some members no longer here, people get personally attacked for their preferences, whether gun, scope or other things. It was a general statement. Differing points of view are always fine. We had a couple members here a while back that it was "their way or the highway" and they let everyone know it!! I LOVE your experience, knowledge and helping attitude.

[UlteriorModem]

This thread reminds me of how on the astronomy forums once in a while there will be a heated debate about which is 'better' a refractor or a reflector.

They are both 'tools' that accomplish the same task in different ways. There is no 'best' and really boils down to a personal preference.

[oldnamvet]

Just buy what you need.

If you do field target, buy Steyr LG110 or similar.

If you do something else, buy something else.

I am shooting metal plates today, and doing it good with a rifle I have, and see no common sense reason why replacing it, as long as it do what it is suppose to do.

Today, metal plate on 162 yards. Hit.

Looks like something other than an air rifle has shot that plate.

[Bryan Heimann]

Yep, the spring piston is outdated for sure.

So is 30/30 Winchester.

.177 isn't big enough to hunt small game.

.223 is not enough gun for Whitetails.

I'm triggered

[Pandur_HR]

Looks like something other than an air rifle has shot that plate.

Yes. Not the air rifle.   

It is homemade simple thing someone left on a range. There are all kinds of holes on it.

Actual target is an old abonded wasp nest just in a middle (about 1/2 MOA), yesterday, I didn't hit it.

Today, they are cutting the grass, so no shooting.

[Pandur_HR]

BTW. As long as people buy and use something, it is not outdated, it will be produced as long as profit can be made with it. Just as bought and used.

[johnnyfoos]

Well this was an interesting read-
I know very little about break barrel guns and I do have a couple
Also a side lever springer.
But what I did NOT read about here was what only Frank something and one other mentioned-
" the quick shot cycle of the gas ram."
I read a while back about somebody doing a test on these RAM guns
and it looked like most of them did shoot a lot faster cycle than spring ones did,.,.,  ?
That seems like it would be better but again everybody has their own feelings about things.
ME-
I LOVE an AIRGUN,  The pure release of the air with NO recoil or bounce of any sort !!!
Either a pumper or PCP they just are just a joy to shoot with
being able to watch a pellet as it goes down range is fun for me.


Just
Sayn

[Pandur_HR]

Yes, it is indeed fast. You can hear on a video I linked. Very loud springer, not backyard/neighbours friendly. When combined with a ricochet whistling, neighbours might think war had started. 

In a begginig I tought something is wrong with a rifle. But after almost 2000 pellets, it is still the same. Crono OK, seals OK, it is just very loud springer (gas piston).

But powerfull too. It shoot JSB 18.13 at 28 ft-lb, and it is precise too. 1/2" group at 27 yd is good for a springer.

BTW I like shooting, and I don't care what is used (prefer springers in air gunning if have a choice). Spring, gas piston, PCP, CO2, PB.... .177 or .338 Lapua.... I don't care. Just targets and distances differ.
Spring or gas piston? Both is fine for me.

[fwbsport]

"That .25 has been everywhere any weather anytime without ever killing a scope. It has DAMPA mounts."
Hummmm.......Why did you feel the need of a $100 rubber lined scope mount to save your scopes from the recoil of a heavy 11 pound (with scope and mount) rammer?

Because, nced, the Dampa Mounts are permanently attached to the Eliminator (and Crow Magnum) by THE FACTORY and NOT added for another C note!

I didn't know that, thanks for the feedback!

You mentioned that you've never had any scope damage with your "rammer" and I'd be interested in knowing what scope you use vs how many "shots per year".

I switched about 4 or 5 different scopes in the year 1999 and ended up using and leaving a Leupold VarXIII 4.5-14X with extended elevation turret for quick elevation changes.  I hit a pigeon at a measured 91 yards with a .20 and killed a coyote with the .25 in the worst of weather: Arizona monsoon!

Since those animal shots I've had to kill some red squirrels at 30 yards but not much further than that.

Now, it is there for killing but I still shoot it a lot at steel silhouettes with all my other air guns.

I'd defend the Theoben to the end and just yesterday I had the opportunity to show it to Gipper!  Now ask him what he thinks of my Elim!

Yours,
John

[onet12]

Nitro Piston has a one big disadvantage - energy cant be adjusted. With spring airgun you can chop 1-2 coils and lower energy to make airgun less kicky and because of that  more accurate. Pesonally the only gas ram which I could buy is the hw 90 or hatsan vortex. They can be disassemble, fixed, energy adjusted, soother crosman nitron piston etc is a big NO for me.

[Bryan Heimann]

I don't personally have a problem with the nitro piston and other cheap rams.  As long as you take it for what it is-  and that is a cheap air rifle capapble of taking a animal at close range.

They are not target rifes.  Not show pieces.  Not serious hunters other than squirrels or rabbits.  It's a backyard bunny basher and close range pest rifle.